S03.E06: Norma Louise

[Bec]

Norman went after Dylan with a meat tenderizer in that room before, so I doubt his guard was down.

Oh, Dylan was definitely freaked out and on guard. I would be, too. But I hope he got some breakfast out of the deal. Ah, if only all psychotic episodes resulted in delicious buttery french toast with beautiful blackberries.

 

On second thought, wasn't Norma supposed to have been poisoned to death by Norman in the movie? Scratch everything, I'm not so sure I would eat what he makes.

 

This "crisis" was just that she got upset, told Norman that his brother would take care of him, and left for *one* night -- which imo is a reasonable amount of "freedom" for the mother of two grown men to have!

OMG, I know, right? But I guess that's the risk of parenthood. You never know if you're going to get a special snowflake like Norman Bates.

 

Though to be fair, Dylan and Norman had no way of knowing whether Norma is leaving them forever. Even Norman probably wouldn't have freaked out if he knew for sure his mommy just wants a little time to herself and will be back the next day.

[Avaleigh]

I love this show. Such a great episode, all the actors were wonderful. Seeing Norman think he's Norma was so chilling. It could have gone terribly wrong, into camp territory, in the hands of lesser actors.

I'd so like to see the blooper reel from the above scene. If Max didn't lose it at least once then he's certainly made of stronger stuff than I am.

[queenanne]

 

Though to be fair, Dylan and Norman had no way of knowing whether Norma is leaving them forever. Even Norman probably wouldn't have freaked out if he knew for sure his mommy just wants a little time to herself and will be back the next day.

 

 

Oh, true, but in between the bursts of attempts at decent motherhood, Norma simultaneously selfishly "wants to be needed" and acts out accordingly.  Also being a major drama queen.  She has been selfish.  Norman broke my heart too, his temper tantrum reminded me of when Marge got the bright idea to get rid of Maggie Simpson's pacifier, and she gets so enraged she starts toppling the dining room chairs.

[MarkySnark]

Probably because I was subjected to the Lifetime Network's V.C. Andrews marathon the day before, but during the flashback of Norma and Caleb under the porch, all I could hear in my mind was... "Next week on If there be Thorns on the Seeds of Yesterday of the Petals in the Wind of the Flowers in the Attic of Bates Motel..."

Edited April 15, 2015 by MarkySnark

[tom87]

After Norman became Norma all I was thinking was Dylan get in your truck and drive far far away, you can bring Emma if you want.

Edited April 16, 2015 by tom87

[Garnett7]

 

On second thought, wasn't Norma supposed to have been poisoned to death by Norman in the movie?

 

If I remember correctly (spoilers for the movie "Psycho" for anyone who hasn't seen it and if you haven't . . . WHY HAVE YOU NEVER WATCHED THIS MOVIE?! iT'S AWESOME!) 

Norman became increasingly jealous when his mother began a serious relationship with another man (will it be Romero, perhaps?). He felt "jilted" for lack of a better word by her. He killed them both with poison but staged it to look like his mother had killed her lover and then herself after finding out her lover had a wife he never told her about.

 

Out of curiousity I read up some on Emma's illness. Apparently the vibrations from beating on the chest helps break up congestion in the lungs. It seems Emma's biggest problem is her lungs/breathing, at least we haven't heard about any other organ failure yet. Once she gets so bad, she can qualify for a lung transplant and live well into adulthood. So my hope is she gets her some new lungs and she and Dylan beat it out of Crazy Town at the end of the series.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Garnett7

[Sakura12]

I think Dylan likes Emma because she knows and has seen the craziness of his family and still hangs around them. How many girls is he going to find that do that.

 

I also thought he was attracted to her when she brought all his pot plants to him. He stood really close to her and seemed kind of jealous that she knew Gunner. 

[peacheslatour]

 

If I remember correctly (spoilers for the movie "Psycho" for anyone who hasn't seen it and if you haven't . . . WHY HAVE YOU NEVER WATCHED THIS MOVIE?! iT'S AWESOME!)

I would like to second this and add whatever you do, watch the original NOT the remake.

[MorbidPet]

I can't get over how brilliant this season is. Been a fan from the start but this season is outstanding & this episode was just... wow, got no words for just how great it was. In my own language I would say; Herre jävlar va bra! :)

[MaggieG]

My precious Dylan just needs a hug! His reaction to seeing Norman in full on Mother Mode was priceless. And the scene between him and Emma was so cute. Gross, but cute. Especially when she was telling him to hit harder and he was kinda just tapping her lol.

Romero was all sorts of awesome in this episode. At first I thought "Oh he's just going to fight him and maybe knock him out" but then he blew his brains out! Everyone needs to know, you do not mess with Romero. And I ship him and Norma so hard! I keep waiting for the day that they start making out with reckless abandon

VF and FH definitely deserve some Emmy love, this season has been top notch. But the Emmy's don't always make the best calls, they keep nominating the same people over and over and never give truly great performers the love they deserve. #NominateSonsOfAnarchy

[Snaporaz]

I would like to second this and add whatever you do, watch the original NOT the remake.

Absolutely. I don't even understand the point of a frame-by-frame remake. The only redeeming thing about it was Viggo Mortensen, because obviously.

[peacheslatour]

Absolutely. I don't even understand the point of a frame-by-frame remake. The only redeeming thing about it was Viggo Mortensen, because obviously.

*waves at Snaporaz*  Gus Van Sant said he did it so no one else would.  I always love Viggo and I though Anne Heche did a very creditable Marion.  In fact the whole cast was pretty spot on, what really ground my gears though, was Vince Fucking Vaughn as Norman.  I mean really????

[Snaporaz]

*waves at Snaporaz* Gus Van Sant said he did it so no one else would. I always love Viggo and I though Anne Heche did a very creditable Marion. In fact the whole cast was pretty spot on, what really ground my gears though, was Vince Fucking Vaughn as Norman. I mean really????

*waving back, peacheslatour!* I wasn't sure you'd recognize me! ;>)

You're right about the whole cast (except Vince Fucking Vaughn!) being pretty believable updates of their original counterparts. Yet the remake as a whole didn't capture the "atmosphere" of the original the way Bates Motel does. Those scenes of Norma trading in her car and checking into the motel actually brought me back to original Psycho more effectively than the scenes of Marion doing the same things in the remake.

Out of all of the Psycho-adjacent projects that have ever been attempted, this show is the only one that succeeds on every level, even down to the background music. I think Alfred Hitchcock himself is smiling down on Bates Motel.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Snaporaz

[Guest]

Watching Psycho with my teen that I watch Bates Motel with is on my agenda.  I was on board for the remake (I hate b&w, non-HD) until you mentioned Vince F. Vaughn.  Seriously?  

 

I wonder if the flip phone is part of the retro feel of the show.  Though the Costco mobile kiosk guys tell me my senior mother isn't the only one who prefers a flip phone and refuses to move on!  

[Garnett7]

I refuse to even acknowledge the remake. LOL! It never came close to the original to me. But I find remaking classics is often a bad idea period.

[Bec]

When I watched the movie, all I knew about it was that Norman Bates is a psycho and he stabs a woman in the shower while "eek eek eek" music plays. I had no idea about anything else. That was the way to do it! I was so surprised by how it turned out.

 

If you watched Bates Motel up to this episode and still haven't seen the movie, a lot of the twists are probably not going to be surprising anymore.

 

But even going into it (almost) blind, a lot of stuff was vaguely familiar because it's been referenced on The Simpsons and such. It's a hoot to recognize so much from a movie you're seeing for the first time! So you'll still have that.

 

I was hesitant to watch black and white movies at first. But now there are a few black and white movies in my list of all-time-favorite movies. Psycho is in there, yes, and if you like Psycho you should give Sunset Boulevard a look, too!

[Solzhenknitsyn]

Regarding Romero's (speculated) ultimate fate: 

Interesting that in the original Psycho, Norma's mother's lover apparently had a wife that he never told her about. Lately, I've been theorizing that the reason we never see Romero with a woman is that he has a wife from whom he's been separated for a few years. He's still kind of hooked on his wife, hoping she'll take him back...and then Norma shows up in White Pine Bay.

 

I straight-up gasped when Norman turned up in the kitchen in Norma's robe. And when he started speaking with Norma's inflections! And using her mannerisms! He even walked like her! As a poster upthread said, Freddie Highmore played it brilliantly -- he could have gone with a campy, exaggerated performance of femininity, but instead he practically channeled Vera Farmiga.

 

I take that back -- he played Norma, but ever so slightly exaggerated, as if she were closer to a 50s housewife in his mind than she is in real life. So he was playing Head Norma rather than Norma Norma. Oooh, it gave me the chills!

 

Loved Romero lying stone-faced in his hospital bed, looking like he's finally down for the count, as his rival smugly tells him to fall in line or die. Next scene: Option Three. Did everyone forget that Romero's a stone-cold killer? In fact, didn't Bob reference his killing people for the good of White Pine Bay? If so, you'd think that Bob would have sent someone to finish the job in the hospital right away.

 

Loved Norma's interactions with her therapist. Her relief at admitting the depth of Norman's troubles, then her conviction that she'd made a mistake, then her attempt to play it off cool, then her flailing panic. She must be an exhausting character to play, and yet VF makes her completely authentic. And her soliloquy about The Giving Tree! I love all of Norma's contradictions: she's selfish, she's giving, she's warm and open, she pushes people away.

 

One question, though: is it my imagination, or has Norma gotten more sympathetic over the seasons? I feel like in the beginning, the writers played up her narcissism and controlling tendencies, but as the series progressed, they began to emphasize the massive obstacles she faced, both in the past and present.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Solzhenknitsyn

[Guest]

That Romero's Revenge scene was so fun.  So he followed the dude all the way out to the parking garage, WITH his IV stand, and was able to surprise him in the car, break in and shoot him point blank.  That's some crazy, angry ninja sheriff skills!  And presumably his butt was peaking out of the hospital gown the whole way.  Go Alex!  

Edited April 16, 2015 by Guest

[BatmanBeatles]

 

That's some crazy, angry ninja sheriff skills!  And presumably his butt was peaking out of the hospital gown the whole way.

He'd probably be like, "I dare you to laugh."

[peacheslatour]

When I watched the movie, all I knew about it was that Norman Bates is a psycho and he stabs a woman in the shower while "eek eek eek" music plays. I had no idea about anything else. That was the way to do it! I was so surprised by how it turned out.

 

If you watched Bates Motel up to this episode and still haven't seen the movie, a lot of the twists are probably not going to be surprising anymore.

 

But even going into it (almost) blind, a lot of stuff was vaguely familiar because it's been referenced on The Simpsons and such. It's a hoot to recognize so much from a movie you're seeing for the first time! So you'll still have that.

 

I was hesitant to watch black and white movies at first. But now there are a few black and white movies in my list of all-time-favorite movies. Psycho is in there, yes, and if you like Psycho you should give Sunset Boulevard a look, too!

Super atmospheric and creepy.  See also: The original The Haunting.

Edited April 16, 2015 by peacheslatour

[Garnett7]

 

And presumably his butt was peaking out of the hospital gown the whole way.  Go Alex!

 

Sadly, he had his pants on. I noticed in the long shot of him getting into the car, he had his pants and shoes on. :(

[peacheslatour]

Such a great episode, so many WTF moments; the Romero shooting and getting shot, Norma and Caleb reunion, Norman as Norma...I just love this show so much.  Can't wait for next week!

[Avaleigh]

Watching Psycho with my teen that I watch Bates Motel with is on my agenda.  I was on board for the remake (I hate b&w, non-HD) until you mentioned Vince F. Vaughn.  Seriously?  

 

I wonder if the flip phone is part of the retro feel of the show.  Though the Costco mobile kiosk guys tell me my senior mother isn't the only one who prefers a flip phone and refuses to move on!  

I've noticed that a lot of times that when it comes to movies and tv shows that mobile devices aren't necessarily current unless the characters are supposed to be super rich/up to date or it's a product placement thing. Otherwise it's crazy how often a flip phone or an '08 Samsung will appear in a movie or television show. I first noticed it with a couple of HBO shows and then started noticing it elsewhere and realized it must be a budget/prop availability sort of thing. Old school iPods pop up too but this doesn't seem to be as frequent. 

 

Winston, IMO you seem to have good taste (ugh, I hope that doesn't sound arrogant) so I hope you get over the black and white thing one day because you'll end up missing out on some gems. Double Indemnity, Raging Bull, Sunset Boulevard, Out of the Past, The Great Dictator, Metropolis, From Here to Eternity, On the Waterfront, etc. Don't get scared by the glorious black and white. Think of it as a choice of the director. ;-)

Edited April 16, 2015 by Avaleigh

[designing1]

Yes, please, give black & white a chance. To Kill a Mockingbird. All About Eve. Some Like it Hot. Mildred Pierce. Watch all of Hitchcock. Appreciate the art form by watching newer films that are black & white by choice: Manhattan. Schindler's List.

 

I wonder if the final scene of Bates Motel will fade to black & white in homage to Psycho?

 

This episode was outstanding. There's so much content out there -- and I watch too much TV as it is -- that I rarely re-watch anything. I will be making an exception for this episode. Solid storytelling, solid writing, amazing acting all around. I don't understand why this show isn't getting more widespread attention.

[green]

OT:  Black & white is great.  It has the ability to cut to essence without getting caught in the clutter of "color" chrome and trim.  That's perfect for character driven films.

 

It can also create atmosphere and mood so much better at times too.  I don't think Casablanca or To Kill a Mockingbird or All About Eve or Citizen Kane would have gotten the same great feel in color.  In fact I know they wouldn't.  Even The Day the Earth Stood Still (the original with Michael Rennie and Patricia O'Neal, the re-make sucked TOTALLY at all levels) because it was one of the first character/story driven sci-fi films that took the genre to a whole new level.

 

Then there are all the great film noir movies in black & white with their sharp contrasts and shadows.  They would lose their souls in color.

 

And all of them would lose their souls in HD.  HD "flattens out" black & white films too much.  Takes the grit out of them somehow and turns them into bland-looking.  Don't know why.  Maybe it is similar to what digitized music is compared to vinyl and why audiophiles prefer the warmer feel of the latter.  We live in an analog world but our media has all turned digital and so loses something in the process.  Film was analog and it captured that grit of the real world better than say what you see in modern digitized black & white commercials that just look "flat" to me.

 

Romero having a flip phone shows he isn't part of the silly, ad men controlled, fad-chasing "consuming" herd.  Also flip phones are making a come back fad-wise so Romero's will suddenly become "in" then go "out" again a little while later wash rinse re-cycle.  Meanwhile Romero doesn't give a damn if his phone is in or out as defined by ads pushing products.  He only cares that it does what a phone is suppose to do.  Perfect phone for his character to use.

Edited April 16, 2015 by green

[rue721]

I think that putting a brand-less flip phone in a character's hand on a TV show is like putting the sign "Your Ad Here!" on a blank billboard next to the freeway.

[peacheslatour]

 

I wonder if the final scene of Bates Motel will fade to black & white in homage to Psycho?

This would be so cool!  I picture a car arriving at the motel in a rain storm and as the camera pulls back we see the House (capitalized because I consider the House a character) in the backround with a figure standing in the window.  Fade to black and white and freeze.  Fin.

Edited April 16, 2015 by peacheslatour

[ganesh]

This show has kind of a timeless quality to it. We were speculating after the first episode what year it was. Keeping the flip phone is like that. 

[Timetoread]

My I also add in the timeless Christmas classic, It's a Wonderful Life to the list?  Oh and The Bad Seed.

[JustLilOlMe]

Oh, my, I must be out of style too as I have my flip phone still as well.  It's a fairly new phone, gets internet and all, just a preference.  I don't use it for the internet often as I've a tablet for that.  His flip phone doesn't make me think this show is set in any "distant" past since Norma has a "smart" phone that she so nicely shot in this episode.  Man, there's been many a time I'd have liked to shot my phone!  Wonder if her insurance will cover gun shoots for her to get a new phone. 

This is the first episode I watched twice.  Didn't quite get why she confessed secrets to the psych teacher then sexed him up?  She didn't pay him for any treatment so it's not as if she could claim patient privilege, so I was confused why he was saying he could lose his license since she's not a patient.  I wonder how all that will pay off.

I wondered why Dylan didn't get Norman to the ER for psychiatric help when he flipped out and later turned into "mother".  I guess Norma convinced him that getting Norman the help he needed was bad .  Dylan, you'll be sorry you listened to mommy when your bro kills you as soon as he thinks mother is showing you more attention than he thinks she should.  And Emma went right along with just handle Norman's breakdown alone at home.  She'll likely pay for that too.  But where the heck is her father that she needs to insert herself into this psycho family so badly?  Is he hiding out his the taxidermy lab so much he hasn't noticed that she is never at home anymore?  So many questions. 

So, Caleb falls to the ground tearfully begging Norma for forgiveness and she starts sobbing along with him.  Here she is angrily telling the boys what a rotten rapist monster he is than she turns around and when confronting him becomes a sobbing mess.  Hmmmm.  Loved the look that Norman gave him, deadly.  Now I again question why Norma has no problem with telling the boys what a monster he was but why not blast him as well?  Weird.

Edited as shot is not the same as shoot.

Edited April 17, 2015 by JustLilOlMe

[peacheslatour]

My I also add in the timeless Christmas classic, It's a Wonderful Life to the list?  Oh and The Bad Seed.

Some of us should take it to the Small Talk thread.  I could talk about old movies all day long.

[BatmanBeatles]

I don't know a lot about CF, but aren't you supposed to pound the person on the back to loosen up the mucus?

[truthaboutluv]

Now I again question why Norma has no problem with telling the boys what a monster he was but why not blast him as well?  Weird.

 

 

She has blasted him. Rewatch last season when he first showed up and she walked in on him with Dylan, in her kitchen. She went full on patent BSC Norma - screaming, flying things and shoving him out her house. That's why Dylan kept pushing to know why she was so adamant for him to not see Caleb and to understand her reaction, leading her to finally reveal that he was really Dylan's father and that he raped her. 

[queenanne]

I don't know a lot about CF, but aren't you supposed to pound the person on the back to loosen up the mucus?

 

I'm not sure.  I think you would for croup, complete with having the person hang over the edge of a bed at 90 degrees as you do so... but, one of the Bates writing staff is said to have cystic fibrosis, so I'm trusting they'd know.

[Portia]

And to think that I almost gave up on this show last season. Damn, has it ever come into its own! That was one captivating hour of television.

My childhood BFF had a cousin with CF, and they'd pound on her back. This was in the '70s, though, so the protocol may have changed. I'm hoping for a lung transplant for Emma, but I've heard transplantable lungs are exceedingly rare because car crash victims often have seatbelt damaged lungs.

I have been dying for Norman to go Full Norma, but I think it was wise for them to dial it down to just the housecoat...at least for now. That choice sidestepped the potential campiness of full drag AND allowed the subtlety of Highmore's impersonation to shine through.

Was anyone besides me hoping to glimpse a rocking chair in Norma's bedroom?
 

Edited April 17, 2015 by Portia

[Bec]

I think I saw Emma napping in this old looking wooden chair in Norman's room. Was that THE rocking chair?

[Portia]

Was anyone besides me hoping to glimpse a rocking chair in Norma's bedroom?

 

 

 

I think I saw Emma napping in this old looking wooden chair in Norman's room. Was that THE rocking chair?

Oooh, Bec, THE rocker was what I was looking for, and I think that WAS it in Norman's room! Nice catch.

[murbanski]

I really like this show and I'm also a fan of the original movie!  So, did the whole Norma leaving town scene seem reminiscent of Marion Crane from the movie?!  

 

[JustLilOlMe]

I don't know a lot about CF, but aren't you supposed to pound the person on the back to loosen up the mucus?

I know more than I probably would like about CF but what I know is from 10+ years ago.  From my experience, you cup both front and back chest walls since you want to get all lung surfaces.  I did think it was odd she only asked him to cup her front and than it appeared he only did the upper chest wall (it is difficult to fully cup a female with breast, as the breast are a bit in the way.  Also, you cup in sort of a rapid rhythmic style, not that pat, pat stuff he did.  I doubt she'd be coughing up much with the little bit of cupping he did. 

 

My childhood BFF had a cousin with CF, and they'd pound on her back. This was in the '70s, though, so the protocol may have changed. I'm hoping for a lung transplant for Emma, but I've heard transplantable lungs are exceedingly rare because car crash victims often have seatbelt damaged lungs.

I think the average waiting time for double lung transplant is 2-3 years but why is she in podunk instead of a large city with a hospital that does lung transplants?  Her dad would have a choice of where to move to when he immigrated to the states, I should think.  He knew Emma would evenually need those lungs, and better that she be near the hospital to get there quickly plus you need to stick nearby for the 6 months post transplant.  So, that's another odd thing I find about Emma's story.  Couldn't dad have moved anywhere in the states, why choose marijuana central instead of a city with a well known med center transplant program?  What even gave him immigration approval any ways?  Is the US in need of taxidermists?    Another odd aspect of the program, why is she even living in that town?

Edited April 17, 2015 by JustLilOlMe

[JustLilOlMe]

She has blasted him. Rewatch last season when he first showed up and she walked in on him with Dylan, in her kitchen. She went full on patent BSC Norma - screaming, flying things and shoving him out her house. That's why Dylan kept pushing to know why she was so adamant for him to not see Caleb and to understand her reaction, leading her to finally reveal that he was really Dylan's father and that he raped her. 

Yes, that's is what I'm talking about.  She has not only had calmer discussions regarding the evil that is her brother but also that freak out, yet on meeting him instead of tearing into him and letting him no that he is a monster and needs to get far, far away she lets him sob into her legs and also joins in on the sobbing.  I'd expected her to start screeching at him the moment his face popped out of the trailer about his being a horrible person and what he'd done was unforgivable so get out of town pronto. Seemed weird that instead of that Norma, we get some wishy washy weep with her rapist Norma.  

Sorry for double post, forgot I also meant to address this response too.

[truthaboutluv]

She has not only had calmer discussions regarding the evil that is her brother but also that freak out, yet on meeting him instead of tearing into him and letting him no that he is a monster and needs to get far, far away she lets him sob into her legs and also joins in on the sobbing.

 

 

I guess I'm not understanding because the freak out was in response to meeting him that first time. It's not like she was simply told Caleb came around and reacted that way. She walked into her kitchen, saw him, the brother she hadn't seen in years and she completely lost it. She very much did tell him to get the hell away from her and in fact she screamed it quite emphatically, while also yelling at him to get away from her and that she wanted nothing to do with him.

 

So she did tear into him and treated him like someone she considered a monster. I think this episode was Norma just going through A LOT of emotions about everything in her past and in that moment she just broke down. But I'll wait to see the next episode before assuming that means she's ready to welcome Caleb back into her life. Or at least I'm hope that's not what it means but of course as I've noted, I'm by no means a fan of Caleb's and will be more than glad for him to just vanish.

[JustLilOlMe]

I guess I'm not understanding because the freak out was in response to meeting him that first time. It's not like she was simply told Caleb came around and reacted that way. She walked into her kitchen, saw him, the brother she hadn't seen in years and she completely lost it. She very much did tell him to get the hell away from her and in fact she screamed it quite emphatically, while also yelling at him to get away from her and that she wanted nothing to do with him.

I guess I'm not explaining my reaction well, as I expected the same sort of reaction this time as we got from her at that time.  She was pretty vehement that she had decided to see her evil monster of a brother due to her sons' pressuring her to do so.  I expected the same screaming rage reaction on this meeting too, not the weep fest that we got.  I'm not understanding her 180 change in seeing him this time as compared to the previous visit.  Why even let him start with the touching/grabbing stuff, I'd expected she'd be keeping her distance while screaming at the top of her lungs why again she detested him for what he'd done to her. Maybe it's just me, I'd thought she'd be kicking him in the face not letting him grab her thighs when he approached her.  Maybe it's just me.

[Mabinogia]

I think this episode was Norma just going through A LOT of emotions about everything in her past and in that moment she just broke down.

 

 

That is how I read it. The first time she was taken by surprise. She was also more in control of her life then, well, for Norma Bates anyway. Her mother wasn't dead then either. her son wasn't as clearly going down the short road to crazy, etc. This time, she had just run away from home after being "ganged up on" by her boys, her mother recently died (I'm assuming her mom was the only other living member of her family, but that's just an assumption, so all she has now is her boys and Caleb and Caleb is the only link to her past life). She was a wreck this episode and seeing Caleb, I think this time she saw the brother who was her only ally back in the day and all the pain of the past washed over her, where last time all the anger washed over her. Norma is a very complex person. She's not just angry all the time. She's not just sad all the time. She's not even crazy all the time (just most of the time lol).

 

I was riveted by that scene. I loved it. It showed just how complex their relationship is. Yes, she hates him for what he ended up doing, but she also loved him for what he was to her before that, her protector, her only family, her ally. I didn't read that scene as "oh, Norma's over the rape now, they can be one big happy family". I will be disappointed if that happens. But I think something much more complicated will happen. I think a part of Norma wants Caleb back because back when she was a little girl, he was the one she turned to for protection and support and she is in desperate need of that now. It is so fascinating and not at all back and white and I love it.

[Timetoread]

I guess I'm not explaining my reaction well, as I expected the same sort of reaction this time as we got from her at that time.  She was pretty vehement that she had decided to see her evil monster of a brother due to her sons' pressuring her to do so.  I expected the same screaming rage reaction on this meeting too, not the weep fest that we got.  I'm not understanding her 180 change in seeing him this time as compared to the previous visit.  Why even let him start with the touching/grabbing stuff, I'd expected she'd be keeping her distance while screaming at the top of her lungs why again she detested him for what he'd done to her. Maybe it's just me, I'd thought she'd be kicking him in the face not letting him grab her thighs when he approached her.  Maybe it's just me.

 

For me every action has made perfect sense.  Many think that Norma's tantrums are extreme reactions but that's not really it - those are moods that come and go - she has a mercurial personality and the histrionics are a form of release - just as are tantrums in a child.  She already gave Caleb the REAL extreme reaction - she ran away from him and cut ALL connection to him for 20+ years.  She had his child and did not tell him.  He's meeting this child as an adult and that child, per his mother, labeled him a rapist to his face.  She physically removed him the second she saw him the first time he came back.  She shut him out utterly erasing all paths to her so that it took him years to find her.  But I think a distinction needs to be made on who Caleb is.  He's a stranger to us so once we get the label "rapist" that is ALL he is to us.  But to Norma he is her rapist, her brother, her former lover, the father of her son, the person she was closest to in the world, the ONLY tie to her childhood, and he is her betrayer.  There is no way she could be neutral about him. 

 

I think when she went there after having worked up the nerve, she fully expected to toss him out - this time for good.  But Caleb hit a nerve that only a person with the descriptions above could.  It is very human that she reacted the way she did to seeing so much pain in someone she loved so much at one time.  People are not black and white and feelings don't always run in tandem with morality.   For instance,  by all accounts, Norma was aloof and dismissive to Dylan all his life to the point that he no longer acknowledged her as his mother, but all it took for Dylan to forgive and embrace this family was a sincere apology and remorse from Norma.  It melted all the ice around him.  Not just because of Norma's apology but because of Dylan's need for it.  Caleb did the only thing that could have melted the ice around Norma.  Had he been beligerent or forceful with her, it would have ended badly.  I think she expected a fight and had built up confidence in her ability to fight him - now that she is an adult with more power.  But Caleb didn't bare his teeth, he instead rolled over and presented his belly and it disarmed her. I don't fault her for this.  She too is hurting and frankly these are two people who have many tears inside of them.  His greatest need was to apologize and her greatest need was to receive one.  Also I am sure, in the complexity that is humanity, something deep in her has missed him immensely.  For that moment at least the heart of brother and sister fused in their shared need - incognizant of the other pressing circumstances surrounding them.  I am anxious to see what happens going forward when the head takes over for the heart.  Clearly there are two sides to this sad story and sometimes it happens that neither side is lying, it is THEIR truth.  I am not excusing rape, this needs to be addressed and even punished, but I AM excusing complex and conflicting emotions in Norma - even if they aren't PC.

Edited April 18, 2015 by Timetoread

[Bec]

There's nothing politically incorrect about saying people are complex and might react to their rape (and their rapists) in unexpected ways. So you're actually all good there. The PC police is not going to come for you ;)

[placate]

I'm so grossed out by the therapist.  Screw a woman who is drunk and you just psychoanalyzed while reminding her that doing so might breach some laws?  Freaking check, that guy is a creep.  Poor Dylan and Caleb, I don't think either of them will make it past this season.

[Mick Lady]

OT- but Green is right. HD destroys black and white movies! If you haven't seen "Psycho" make a point to do so. Get it on Netflix and turn off your HD. But would it be considered a spoiler?

 

"All About Eve" is my favorite movie EVER!

 

If they don't give Vera Farmiga an Emmy, I'm gonna cause a riot!

 

peacheslatour, I'm with you! You start a thread on B&W movies. I'll talk all day long!

[Bec]

would it be considered a spoiler?

I think this show expects most of its audience to have seen Psycho, anyway. And we've been openly discussing Norma's fate in the movie here for a while.

[peacheslatour]

 

peacheslatour, I'm with you! You start a thread on B&W movies. I'll talk all day long!

Lol Mick Lady, I would but I don't know where to put it.  Maybe the mods can help us?

[designing1]

Oops.

Edited April 21, 2015 by designing1