Season 1 Discussion: The Devil Of Hell's Kitchen

[The Crazed Spruce]

This thread is for discussion of the first season as a whole. If you have a comment about a specific moment or episode, you should probably put it in the proper episode thread, unless it's organically part of the flow of the conversation.  And if you haven't seen the whole season, be prepared to be spoiled.

 

By and large, I like the show so far, and I'm definitely psyched for the rest of Marvel's Netflix shows.

What I liked:

• The casting.  Not a lousy performance in the bunch.  Especially...
• Vincent D'Onofrio.  His Wilson Fisk was both charming and truly menacing, and he even managed at times to make him almost sympathetic.  And that's after you see him decapitate a dude with a car door.
• Foggy and Matt, Avocados At Law.  Charlie Cox and Eldon Henson have great chemistry together, and the character's friendship really anchors the show, even when they're fighting with each other.  Speaking of....
• Nelson v. Murdock.  Probably my favourite episode.  Foggy reacted just the way you would if you found out that your best friend was secretly a masked vigilante.  You could almost feel his pain, betrayal, and concern, all wrapped up in a big ball of anger.  If this episode isn't Henson's Emmy submission, he ought to fire his agent.
• The women.  Pretty much every woman in the cast who had more than two lines, from Karen and Claire to the old lady from the tenement and Ben Eurich's wife, showed a depth of character and an inner strength that is sorely lacking in many female characters these days.  (The biggest surprise for me was Vanessa.  You'd expect that she'd be shocked and even horrified when she learned the truth about Wilson, but she took to the Carmela Soprano role like a fish takes to water.)
• The fight choreography.  Pretty much every fight in the show was vicious, brutal, and realistic.  (My personal favourite is the scene from the end of episode 2.  Very well done.)
• The opening credits.  It gave the show the perfect gothic feel.  It would've been perfectly acceptable if they'd just gone with a title card, but I'm very grateful they didn't.  It was both stylized and gothic, and perfectly set the mood for the show.

 

What I didn't like:

• The lighting, especially for a web series.  Sure, it gave the show a dark and gritty atmosphere, but half the time I couldn't see a bloody thing on my crappy tablet.  Especially the first few episodes.
• The finale seemed a bit rushed to me. Sure, the chase scene was fun, and the final fight between Matt and Fisk was great, but everything else in the episode seemed a bit forced in order to clean the slate for the next season.  Sure, I get it, but they probably could've stretched out Fisk's downfall over a couple of episodes, make it seem more organic.

 

All in all, a great show, and if they can keep up the same quality, I'm definitely looking forward to AKA Jessica Jones.

[starri]

All in all, a great show, and if they can keep up the same quality, I'm definitely looking forward to AKA Jessica Jones.

I wish they'd just call it Jessica Jones.  I get why they can't call it Alias, but the AKA just sounds stupid.

 

 

The finale seemed a bit rushed to me. Sure, the chase scene was fun, and the final fight between Matt and Fisk was great, but everything else in the episode seemed a bit forced in order to clean the slate for the next season.  Sure, I get it, but they probably could've stretched out Fisk's downfall over a couple of episodes, make it seem more organic.

I would argue that his downfall DID happen over several episodes, starting with Karen's killing Wesley.  After that, we learn that Leland and Gao were trying to kill Vanessa, then Gao's heroin trade goes up in flames, then we find Leland was skimming off the top of Fisk's money.

 

I also think that they'd be stupid to not follow up with Fisk as an antagonist (if not THE antagonist), because just about everything that I've read has singled out D'onofrio for praise.  He's the Netflix equivalent of Loki.  They were foreshadowing The Hand all over the place, but depending how long they're producing the show, I can see them following the template of Hannibal, and slowly unwinding the mythology, like maybe saving Bullseye for a hypothetical third season.  The entire season was basically one long origin story, so I just don't see them doing Elektra AND The Hand AND Bullseye all at once.

 

I was vaguely disappointed that there wasn't an episode titled "Sympathy for the Devil."

[revbfc]

I enjoyed this much more than Agents of Shield, but slightly less than Agent Carter. I just hope we get more Daredevil in Jessica Jones. It'd be a waste to not have that character pop up periodically.

Also, I loved Wilson Fisk, can't wait for his inevitable return as Kingpin.

My big problem: Charlie Cox's American accent. He needs to buckle down like Idris Elba or Dominic West did. If your character is from New York, I should be able to hear New York and not Ireland.

Edited April 12, 2015 by revbfc

[Eegah]

I've seen some complaints about the show's victimization of women, which I can only assume come from people who quit after the first couple episodes. Because seriously, with Karen, Claire, Elena, Vanessa, AND Gao, we get a broad spectrum who are all interesting in their own ways and given their own agency.

 

On the other hand, it fell down a bit on race. Seeing the three surviving white heroes mourning their two minority comrades in the final episode really brought that home, though I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt that Ben's role was written before the decision to change him to black. And at least Claire is still out there, presumably to come back in Luke Cage.

 

In a franchise that's suffered enormously from cardboard evil bad guys, the Kingpin stands out very nicely. And it'll be fun to see the Loki nuts who insist he just needs a hug suddenly have to deal with this equally complex villain who's not as conventionally attractive, and try to talk their way out of why Loki's better.

[The Crazed Spruce]

I wish they'd just call it Jessica Jones.  I get why they can't call it Alias, but the AKA just sounds stupid.

Preaching to the choir, my friend....

 

I would argue that his downfall DID happen over several episodes, starting with Karen's killing Wesley.  After that, we learn that Leland and Gao were trying to kill Vanessa, then Gao's heroin trade goes up in flames, then we find Leland was skimming off the top of Fisk's money.

Good point, but it seemed to me like his entire infrastructure was dismantled in a five-minute montage. Coulda been paced better, is all I'm saying.

 

I also think that they'd be stupid to not follow up with Fisk as an antagonist (if not THE antagonist), because just about everything that I've read has singled out D'onofrio for praise.  He's the Netflix equivalent of Loki.

I'd say Fisk's big comeback, either in the shadows or cleared of all charges through some chicanery, is pretty much a given.

They were foreshadowing The Hand all over the place, but depending how long they're producing the show, I can see them following the template of Hannibal, and slowly unwinding the mythology, like maybe saving Bullseye for a hypothetical third season.  The entire season was basically one long origin story, so I just don't see them doing Elektra AND The Hand AND Bullseye all at once.

Agree to disagree. I figure they're gonna loosely base season 2 around Frank Miller's first run on the comic, built around an epic turf war between Fisk's organization and The Hand, with Bullseye and Elektra as the main lieutenants.

 

I was vaguely disappointed that there wasn't an episode titled "Sympathy for the Devil."

I know, right? Or at least "A Man Of Wealth And Taste".

I enjoyed this much more than Agents of Shield, but slightly less than Agent Carter. I just hope we get more Daredevil in Jessica Jones. It'd be a waste to not have that character pop up periodically.

I'm hoping for a cameo, but we probably won't see him again 'til The Defenders.

[starri]

Agree to disagree. I figure they're gonna loosely base season 2 around Frank Miller's first run on the comic, built around an epic turf war between Fisk's organization and The Hand, with Bullseye and Elektra as the main lieutenants.

I figure there are essentially three stories they are more or less pre-ordained to tell:  the origin, which we've just watched, Miller's first run on the book (which, even absent Elektra and Bullseye, they pulled some inspiration here), and then Born Again.

 

The pacing with this seemed very deliberate, and there was a lot more stuff they could have pulled in, but they didn't.  That's kind of why I'm expecting a slow burn.  They could have used more of the rogue's gallery but didn't.  Maybe I'm just projecting because I see a lot of similarities between Daredevil and Hannibal, but this just doesn't seem like the kind of show that throws a bunch of stuff at the wall.

 

If Black Cat isn't tied up with Spider-Man, I'd love her to show up somewhere.

 

Also, if they could avoid turning Karen into a heroin addict porn star that would be great.  K.  Thanx.

[The Crazed Spruce]

Also, if they could avoid turning Karen into a heroin addict porn star that would be great.  K.  Thanx.

Seconded.

[Eegah]

Plus, they kind of set up Elektra as Matt's college girlfriend who mysteriously disappeared.

[starri]

Moved over to the place where it goes.

Edited April 12, 2015 by starri

[The Crazed Spruce]

We're veering into speculation territory here. (And yes, I'm as guilty of it as anybody.) Let's try to keep the conversation to the first season, and keep the Season 2 talk in the appropriate thread, okay?

[LolaRuns]

To be honest, so far I don't find the writing for the female characters to be all that great. There just seems to be such an overabundance out of super-understanding women outside of Gao and Foggy's ex-girlfriend. Vanessa particularly just feels like she's majorly lacking some sort of backstory reason as for why she's going for it. 

 

I read somebody comparing them to Cookie/Lucious from Empire and I can't agree. Both Cookie and Lucious feel like fleshed out people and both seem like they would still have mostly the same basic personalities even if they hadn't met each other (even if they gave each other unique experiences that they might not have had otherwise).

 

Vanessa, what would she have done if she hadn't come across Fisk, what was she doing beforehand? I feel the faithful Mafia wife thing works better if they met young/had been together for a long time, rather than it being with somebody she's barely met and again without much backstory reason otherwise (even if that reason was just: she was really bored with her life before). And compared to the comics, I feel like the show is missing out a bit on storyline potential with them not having grown up children. 

 

Don't get me wrong, the women characters are still likable, have interesting stuff to do (particularly Karen) and are extremely well played. I just don't feel that much depth from their writing yet (but that can still come in the future of course, so it's not a problem for me even if there are scenes when I can't help but feel that they are being used as "empathy bot"). 

 

As for the overall season, Matt/Foggy is excellent as a way to ground the series. 

 

I'm kinda sad that they got rid of the Russians so early, I kinda liked them. 

 

Gotta give the series mad props for having to many scenes in other languages and subtitled. I'm gonna guess that plenty of the actors are probably awful at it, but I can't help but think that they are still real troopers. 

 

Any speculation on what the secret weapon child that Stick killed actually was? 

Edited April 12, 2015 by LolaRuns

[revbfc]

Many times when there'd be a shot of the Manhattan skyline, I would try to catch a glimpse of Stark Tower. I never could. Was anybody more successful than me in this endeavor?

Edited April 12, 2015 by revbfc

[GHScorpiosRule]

I binge-watched the entire season in one and half days, and I fucking love this show.

 

What am I going to watch now?

 

As for as Cox's accent, I don't hear anything but an American accent, and I'm one who is partial to Irish and Scottish accents. But, I suppose, like beauty, it's in the ear of the beholder?

 

D'Onofrio was totally channeling Goren in the scene with Urich where he kept saying "You went after my mother!" Something that happened in Criminal Intent.  But yeah, his Fisk is a really scary guy, and despite D'Onofrio bringing it and being very good at playing the layers, I don't feel sorry for him at all.

 

I love the whole cast in general, but there's something about Karen that's rubbing me the wrong way; I suppose her insistence that Urich just had to go after Fisk, no matter what. I'll leave it at that here, and go into more details in the specific episode thread.

 

On a final note, I really didn't think I was squeamish, but I'm finding I'm covering my ears when someone is getting their hand, arm, leg broken or being beaten to a pulp and the sound effects are very graphic as to what is happening.

 

Okay something else. What I think I really appreciate about Cox's DareDevil, is how he shows/demonstrates how much energy it takes to beat the crap out of who he beats up, with the heavy breathing. It shows me anyway how much the toll it takes on him.

 

And can I say how much the costume for DareDevil here TOTALLY ROCKS?!!!!!!

 

ETA: Because there are more than one "her", It's important to identify who I'm not really warming up to!

Edited April 13, 2015 by GHScorpiosRule

[Enigma X]

Sold! I absolutely loved the show. I like seeing how the other half--what I would presume to be the majority half--lives in the MCU. I also had no problems with the female characters. (I usually have a lot less problems with stuff like that than others do admittedly though.) For me, the female characters we got are as three-dimensional as the male characters. Well, maybe not Vanessa. I did not get why she was so quick to support Fisk. I still enjoyed the show very much.

[WendyCR72]

Real life is kicking my ass today - and I want to watch the last 4 episodes! Oh, well. :-(  Tomorrow. But yeah, I know Fisk is evil and bad but as I said in its thread, I loved "Shadows in the Glass" and finding what makes Fisk tick. He deserves all the bad stuff that comes to him, but I feel sorry for the bullied kid who took that path. And while I have 4 to go, I have a distinct feeling Fisk and Vanessa are doomed. Which, again, is deserved. But...I'm a chemistry junkie, and Fisk and Vanessa - as fucked up as it is - is still somehow sweetly romantic. When the end comes - and in this world, it is inevitable - I think Fisk's last hinge will come undone. And it's exhilarating yet scary as hell to contemplate.

 

And loyalties seem so fragile on this show. Even friends turn, but it fits with the overall darkness of this NYC and its inhabitants.

 

And speaking of dark, I totally get the symbolism and mood, etc., but someone needs to up the lighting just a smidge, since in a few scenes I could barely make out folks.

[Cthulhudrew]

What I liked:

• The women.  Pretty much every woman in the cast who had more than two lines, from Karen and Claire to the old lady from the tenement and Ben Eurich's wife, showed a depth of character and an inner strength that is sorely lacking in many female characters these days.  (The biggest surprise for me was Vanessa.  You'd expect that she'd be shocked and even horrified when she learned the truth about Wilson, but she took to the Carmela Soprano role like a fish takes to water.)

 

Can't disagree with anything in particular you said, except I did find that Marcy was a pretty one-dimensional character; almost a caricature. Which was incredibly surprising to me, as even the most minor roles often seemed to have more depth to them. They sort of turned it around at the end, with her deciding to help Foggy and get her soul back, but I almost felt it was too little too late. Hopefully they give her something more to do next season to make up for it, because her vapidness truly made her stick out like a sore thumb against all of the other characters. When they can make irredeemable people like Wesley and Vladimir almost seem charming and sympathetic, but they can't quite get there with Marcy? Seems like they dropped the ball.

 

Speaking of, I'll definitely miss the villains from season one that didn't make it. Wesley was a standout performance, Leland Sr., who really ought to have known better than to provoke someone he knew (and kept telling everyone else) was unpredictable and impulsive. And of course, I'll miss Ben Urich. Very surprised they offed him, considering how much of a role he has in the DD mythos.

 

But spectacular job, all around.

[loki567]

I did feel like the quality started to dip in the last few episodes. Most of the season felt like a really good character drama with some superhero stuff around the edges. The back-half of the season started to go full superhero and hit a lot of the same notes I've seen a dozen times in different mediums. Daredevil became a less interesting show because of it. The dirty cop who could bring down all of Wilson's empire was a total Macguffin. 

 

Still very enjoyable show, probably my favorite series to premiere on Netflix. 

[Tarasme]

 

 

I love the whole cast in general, but there's something about Karen that's rubbing me the wrong way; I suppose her insistence that Urich just had to go after Fisk, no matter what....

 

As much as I LOVED being able to binge watch all thirteen over the weekend, I think that- for me- what became essentially a thirteen hour movie exacerbated in a big way the little irritations of Deborah Ann Woll.

 

Karen was left doing exposition duty ALL THE TIME and, for me, it really hurt the characterization. There are at least seven episodes where she says the same thing to the same characters- some form of "[Devil of Hell's Kitchen] didn't do this, he helped me." and "Union Allied blah blah framed me/tried to kill me!" plus a narrative insistent on her dogged persistence to Find. The. Truth. was old by the end.

 

I think I was also irritated because I'd have traded almost anything to dump Karen's scenes and replace them with Claire scenes. I was sad at each and every new ep that didn't have Rosario Dawson in the credits. Part of me understands that it would have been a stretch to keep including Claire into the framework after they'd lit the candle then put it out, but maybe they could have delayed lighting another ep or three? Especially after the immediate threat of the Russians was gone? 

 

I adored Charlie Cox. Whereas Woll became harder to look at during the run, Cox- for me- became more interesting and more loveable.

 

OH! And I was SO PLEASED with the spiritual discussions between Matt and Father Lantom. I have no idea what's in the comics, but it was nice to see a philosophical discussion of the nature of evil during which the hero must seriously evaluate himself- not just how hard it is to recognize and stay on the right side of the moral line, but that he strongly desires to Parkour over the line. 

 

In "Stick," is it okay for this thread to provide intel on the conversation at the end? I was really hoping Nobu's folk- which I'm assuming are The Hand- and Stick's people (Stone?) would be back before the season ended. Since tPtB decided to make Matty's abilities lean more meta than that of your average blind martial arts enthusiast, I was hoping that the war Stick spoke of would be present again (rather than the few lines we got involving the disposition of the Hell's Kitchen real estate to the Japanese and how Nobu's people might have been the ones responsible for the poisoning at the benefit).  

 

Now I need to go watch Stardust again.

[Dandesun]

I too loved the stuff between Matt and Father Lantom. I loved that Lantom got some exposition for himself and his history in the seminary and what holy texts say versus what it was translated to be... Whatever my personal feelings towards religion are, I like that aspect of it in this story. It's something that is a part of Matt's life (he was clearly raised in a Catholic orphanage after Jack was killed so that had a lot of influence) whether he's lapsed or struggling or whatever. The church, and St. Agnes in particular, matter to him.

 

Okay, so I watch Call the Midwife as well and the church figures largely into it while it resides in a place of poverty. There are certain parallels where people are trying to do good work... God's work... in a place where it is a struggle to get through the day or even have hope. 

 

But Matt's talks with Lantom also serves to highlight something else about his character. For all that he lies to his friends about who he is and what he can do, it appears to me that it's a very Catholic thing to do to maintain an appearance in one place while going to your priest to confess all there... where it's safe. Matt feels he has to hide and, in a lot of ways, he does. He's doing dangerous work in a dangerous place. He's not Tony Stark -- who has too much ego to hide -- or Steve Rogers -- who is too well known to hide. Tony builds towers in New York with his name on it and Steve's got a section devoted to him in one of the Smithsonian museums (and very publicly dropped a few Hellicarriers into the Potomac to drag secrets out into the light). In a lot of ways, Matt remains deeply vulnerable and, as such, he turns to St. Agnes and Father Lantom to offer some sort of protection from that vast vulnerability.

 

Plus, there's the obvious Devil/Church symbolism that is just all over the place when it comes to Daredevil. I like that sort of thing. 

[LetItStop]

I just finished binge watching. Loved it! Great writing. Just wish they'd have devoted some time to filling in the female characters' back stories like they did with the men. Why does Foggy get more depth than Karen? I call sexism.

[Gwen-Stacys]

I just finished binge watching. Loved it! Great writing. Just wish they'd have devoted some time to filling in the female characters' back stories like they did with the men. Why does Foggy get more depth than Karen? I call sexism.

Ehh. I think they alluded to Karen's background sfew times (Urich calling her an unreliable source because of her past actions/ Her maybe admitting that Wesley wasn't the first person she'd shot). Them not going in to it seems to be a deliberate at this point. (Saving it for season 2 maybe?)

[Chicago Redshirt]

I just finished binge watching. Loved it! Great writing. Just wish they'd have devoted some time to filling in the female characters' back stories like they did with the men. Why does Foggy get more depth than Karen? I call sexism.

I don't think Foggy got much more back story than Karen. Pretty much all we know about Foggy is that he and Matt were buds in undergrad/law school where he wanted to/did serve as Matt's wingman, they interned together at Landman and Zack (sp?), he had a thing going on with Marcy, that he and Matt were at the top of their classes in law school and he talked about opening up a firm with Matt for some time before that became reality.

 

I think we got about as much back story as Karen, or at least some mysteries. (Something exists in her background that might make her a questionable source, and she's shot someone before.)

 

I would also say that having Daredevil without Foggy is like having Batman without Robin. The firm is Nelson and Murdock. They're partners. So even accepting for argument's sake that there is more attention on Foggy, it's not due to sexism. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

I'm definitely going to rewatch again this weekend, now that I have my HD television back (Mom was visiting and had hijacked it to watch her Indian soaps).

 

Hell, I've already rewatched 1-3 since last night and today.

 

But can someone clarify, if they remember, when Karen killed Wesley, his head dropped toward his left shoulder, yet in the finale, his head was drooping on his right shoulder. It was the one thing that my mind latched onto and wouldn't let go, even as I enjoyed the finale.

[Chaos Theory]

I don't think the lack of Karen's backstory is sexism it is more season 2 storyline. The only backstory we got for Foggy was the college years and that was because he had just found out Matt was the Devil of Hells Kitchen. As for Vanessa back story wasn't really needed any more then backstory was needed for Wesley but it was for Fisk.

[thuganomics85]

Finally finished the series.  Overall, this has to be one of my favorites.  In particular, the casting was fantastic: I really can't think of a weak link in the main group.  Matt is a great lead, of course, but I also really like both Foggy and Karen as well, and am looking forward to hopefully seeing more of them.

 

Fisk was a great villain, and I'm sure he'll be back.  Hopefully, Vanessa too.  I am somewhat disappointed they killed off both Wesley and Leland.  They could have been fun "minor villains" to deal with, while Fisk is currently behind bars.

 

I was bummed that Claire disappeared, but if it's because she's going to be crossing over to the other shows, that does make it more understandable.

 

Can't wait to see where a potential second season could go.  Granted, there is always the possibility it can fall apart (see... a certain other superhero show), but I have more faith in Steven S. DeKnight then most showrunners, after he turned Spartacus from a 300 knock-off, to a very compelling show.

Edited April 15, 2015 by thuganomics85

[Chaos Theory]

I've had a day to let the show digest and I have come to the conclusion that this is pretty much the best super hero show I have seen in a long time. I liked pretty much everything about it. Maybe because I am a fan of the Netflix bingey setup or maybe because the show really was just that good.

The things I really liked about the show.

1. The bad guys: I really liked the bad guys. Starting with Fisk and Vanessa all way to Wesley and Leland Owlsey. The bad guys were believable bad guys and not cartoonish mustache twirling bad guys Plus I really enjoyed the romance between Fisk and Vanessa and I liked that the show avoided the temptation to have Wesley and Vanessa be enemies and instead went with the refreshing way and had them genuinely like each other.

2. The good guys: The good guys weren't cartoonish either or boringly good. They had an edge of darkness to them. I mean what kind of "good guy" commits murder and then tries to get away with it? I'm looking at you Karen. Plus they were fun to just watch during their off getting drunk with each other moments.

3. The Origin Stories: I am not a comic book person so I don't know how close they are and I don't really care. I enjoyed all the origin stories we saw so far. They all made sense for this world and they were interesting.

4. The fight scenes: They looked real and that is a plus. Its kind of weird watching a brutal fight scene and then watching the hero in the next scene with nary a cut on his handsome body. Not on this show. . Brutal fights scenes and then brutal recovery scenes.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[FurryFury]

I generally liked the show, but I didn't enjoy it nearly as much as I did Agent Carter. Still, much better than The CW Flarrow stuff. 

 

I don't have strong feelings about Fisk. He was competently written and acted, but something about him just didn't resonate with me. The final scene with him in prison starting at the wall was fantastic, though.

 

I emphatically do not care about Vanessa, whose character didn't make much sense and wasn't explored at all. She was just a plot device and a way to show Fisk's humanity. But I was much more interested in his "vision" for the city and his morals rather than this "romance".

 

Claire's appearance felt... weird. I know she's going to be on other shows, but I'd prefer it if the show established her better. And that she didn't disappear quite as suddenly.

 

I absolutely loved Karen and her arc, but I'm very disappointed she's still in the dark regarding Matt's superhero antics. I hope she will put two and two together herself as soon as possible. I'm also quite intrigued by the hints about her backstory.

(Also: seriously, she becomes a junkie pornstar in the comics?! What the hell?)

 

Overall, I think the show's attempts at mixing the superhero genre and character drama weren't quite as successful (the 2nd half of the season particularly felt way more comic-y than the first), but I'm intrigued by it and will definitely watch the next seasons and the other Netflix MCU stuff.

Edited April 16, 2015 by FurryFury

[Eegah]

 

(Also: seriously, she becomes a junkie pornstar in the comics?! What the hell?)

Thank you, Frank Miller.

[Eneya]

Is it just me who thinks she already WAS a heroin addict porn star and she moved on? That will be a cool way to handle that part of her life and ALSO have something to learn about her? Although... if she was... then maybe she wouldn't drink, sine most recovering addicts avoid stuff? Maybe she was an alcoholic, instead of a heroin addict. No... this makes even less sense. Hm. Can't wait for season 2.

P.S. The show is amazing. :)

Edited April 16, 2015 by Eneya

[FurryFury]

She looks way too well-adjusted for a person with such a past, imho.

[Dandesun]

Thank you, Frank Miller.

 

Seriously. I think, at the time, it was a means of showing how the morally corrupt late 70s/early 80s could destroy even a sweet, girl-next-door like Karen but... given Miller's career as a whole. Yeah... not so much with the enlightened view of women, is he?

 

I think the series established questions about Karen -- she has something in her past that makes her an unreliable narrator if it's found out and she claims to have shot someone before. However, if she has, she still has a soul because she's still troubled by shooting Wesley. The dream she had about Fisk coming to her and talking about taking a life and how it gets easier... that could very well be but it didn't LOOK like it had gotten easier for her. It's hard to say which I like because questions remain.

 

Also, she did seem to realize SOMETHING about Matt at the end but I'm not sure what it was. Or if it was about Matt or something about herself... I don't know. More questions to be answered later.

 

When does the Jessica Jones series hit? I want it!!

[GHScorpiosRule]

I hate Frank Miller. Despise his crazy ass. And I'm not even a hard core geek/fangurl. Just the one line he said in some interview/DVD extra about how Supes and Bats shouldn't be friends, they should absolutely hate each others' guts...how he said it, and the reasons, just well...I think I blanked them out, but I didn't appreciate it.

 

Ahem. Topic?

 

I know that Fox has the rights to X-Men, but it's really weird that in the opening credits, the music, the strings, I guess? (I suck at trying to figure out which instrument is playing, unless it's something obvious like the flute, saxaphone, bass, drums, piano, cello), remind me oh so much of the theme music for the X-Men in the live action. Not the animated one.  Just me? Okay then. Carry on.

[starri]

I'mma move the discussion of Frank Miller over to the Small Talk thread.

[Zaffy]

I have to declare I am not a comic books fan, I knew almost nothing about Daredevil before I watched the show, so I got introduced to its universe for the first time. 

I am   watching (also without the knowledge of the comic book stories) Arrow, Flash and watched Agent Carter (my favorite).

I thought of sharing with you the opinion of one  comic-books-ignorant average viewer :)
 

Daredevil.. in a nutshell: not sure I will watch season 2. 
There were  two big problems for me:
 

1. The main character/actor.
I really can't stand of him.
It is the first time I didn't care about a comic hero, his motivations, his actions, actually I fast forwarded some of his scenes.
I've seen all this already in Arrow, even if in less cinematic/artsy/dark mood. 
which brings us to..

2. Vigilantes/"Heroes who want to save their city" fatigue.
How many of this kind of series (or even movies) can you watch in a  single season or in such a short time? especially if you are not a comic books fan.
It is the same theme/formula: we have corruption, various super bad guys, the problem of hiding your hero identity from your friends, etc etc etc.
Sure, Daredevil  had a very interesting art direction, an intriguing (and entertaining in some cases) group of villains and a very good cast. 
But it was the same old story without something new/exciting.
I guess this is what  made Agent Carter my favorite, the slightly different formula (and the era).

I read about all these upcoming series and movies based on comics. Do you think this is too much? Can the comic book fans support all the feature releases and make them successful?

Edited April 18, 2015 by Zaffy

[FurryFury]

Agent Carter isn't really a superhero show. It has more in common with stuff like Alias or Nikita than Arrow or Daredevil. So I guess a lot of your impression depends on how much you like the superhero formula. Personally, I much prefer spy shows (esp. female-led) over classic superhero stuff, so I'm with you on it.

 

I don't hate Matt, though. You've mentioned Oliver Queen, whom I have, in fact, grown to hate - mostly in season 2 due to his constant hypocrisy and treatment of his family, but also the over-insistence of the writers that he should hook up with every single conventionally attractive female character except for lesbian Nyssa (and who knows, maybe that's in the cards). It just reeked of male power fantasy, and The Flash isn't much better - Barry doesn't get any sex, but he has had 4 potential love interests/ship teases in one season so far, and no signs of slowing down. I was a bit afraid of Matt going down the same line, but it didn't last with Claire and it's clear his hook-up with Karen isn't in the works quite yet, so I can live with it.

[paigow]

Too bad Arrow / Flash grabbed most of the Spartacus alumni. Having some recognizable second level bad guys working for Fisk would have been good. Paging Gannicus.

[paigow]

Is it just me who thinks she already WAS a heroin addict porn star and she moved on? 

The heroin addict porn star was Juror #8 in the Healy trial.

[raven]

 

I love the whole cast in general, but there's something about Karen that's rubbing me the wrong way; I suppose her insistence that Urich just had to go after Fisk, no matter what.

Me as well.  I don't mind her having secrets - everyone else does - but her constant !!Fisk!! refrain bugged and her lying to Urich to get him to see Fisk's mother really annoyed me.  She tended to moralize a bit too much for someone who has her own shrouded past (according to Urich) and is keeping the secret about killing Wesley.  I think some of the actress's mannerisms were too kind-of-cutesy for me - she would kind of duck her head sometimes when talking (to convey being unsure I guess) and something about the tone of her voice grated; but that was usually just when she would say "Fisk". 

 

That's a bunch of talk but my complaints are really kind of minor.  I liked that she wasn't a wallflower and was shown to be smart and persistent.  She has great chemistry with both Matt and Foggy; scenes with the three of them really worked. 

 

I watched the series over the past week and really loved it.  I don't read comics so don't know anything about Daredevil.  The fight scenes were pretty fantastic and like most here I liked that Matt would end up hurting pretty badly.  I loved that the villains were pretty interesting in their own right; a quibble is that interesting villains and side characters were killed off too quickly.  I guess Vladimir could still have survived somehow.  Just the quick bit with him and his brother in the prison was enough to be intriguing.  I was shocked that Wesley was killed off (though glad Karen stood up for herself) and was hoping to learn more about him and why he was so loyal to Fisk.  Toby Leonard Moore did a lot with the role IMO.   I also wasn't happy to lose Owsley; his snarky asides were fun. 

 

And Ben - why???  I really enjoyed him and Karen together; it was a different dynamic.  When Foggy was brought in, I was totally on board for the trio to be detecting together.  Since it's comic book world, and they showed a closed coffin - I guess the show could come back that he survived somehow but decided to "stay dead" to protect his wife and so she would get his death benefits.  Hey I can hope!

 

The show did a good job with different pairings - Ben/Matt; Matt/Karen; Ben/Karen; Karen/Foggy. etc.  I would have liked to see Claire and Foggy together since we only saw her interact with Matt.  I think it helps to make the world bigger and more believable to have the characters work in different groupings.

 

So the big two - I can really appreciate when Claire told Matt at least she got to see him shirtless, heh.  ITA, Claire, ITA.  I think Charlie Cox was very good - not just with the physical, but as already mentioned, his innter conflict, detailed in scenes with Father Lanton; but I could see that on some level, he enjoys being the hero and pounding the bad guys.  Whether that's the devil in the Murdock boys, his warrior training or a product of both, like he said, he won't give it up; he doesn't want to.   He does want to do right but is flawed, gets hurt, seeks vengeance and makes promises he may not be able to keep - like telling Mr. Potter he'll keep Betsy safe.  He should know that he can't keep that promise, even with Fisk jailed.  Speaking of Potter, glad Matt got body armor but I liked the all black look myself.

 

Wilson Fisk - OK, his giving the ring while being arrested got to me, I have to say.  I do wish Vanessa had been fleshed out a bit more. Her attraction and being intrigued was obvious, but she knows what he does, so is it just the attraction?  Would have liked to know a bit more about why she was so quick to accept what he does.  VOD made Fisk scary but vulnerable.  Great job all around.

 

I've read Netflix is expanding the MCU but haven't heard about a S2 - I hope we get one.  I want to know what happens next, if Karen finds out, does she tell Matt/Foggy about Wesley, what's in her past, etc etc.

Edited April 19, 2015 by raven

[readster]

I was very happy with the series from beginning to end. They really built on the MCU and the 50 year of Daredevil history very well. While I would have loved to see Matt putting on his dad's boxing robe (which his original yellow costume was made from). The organic flow to the traditional red costume, billy club and set of the Hell's Kitchen cast was exceptional. Great casting and I know we will see our favorite martial arts grandmother in the Iron Fist series. They also had the set up perfect for Matt and Foggy's old college buddy, Larry Craston who would become Mr. Fear as a nice set up and work of the other well known Daredevil villains with the death and power vacuums left over from Fisk and company either going to prison or ending up dead. I'm very happy with the series. Bring on Jessica Jones and Luke Cage.

[Dandesun]

I read about all these upcoming series and movies based on comics. Do you think this is too much? Can the comic book fans support all the feature releases and make them successful?

 

Well, superhero movies are basically action movies and those never seem to go out of style. Sure, some of the outfits are a bit more dramatic but in a lot of ways it kind of takes me back to the 70s when I was growing up. Starsky and Hutch, the Rockford Files... look, if you watch those in the here and now, those clothes are more ridiculous than anything Captain America ever put on. I'm just saying.

 

And, so far, the Marvel Cinematic Universe has been a resounding success. So it would appear that the fans are willing to support them... but it's not just them. You don't do $250 million opening weekends without a LOT of people across the board going to check it out. Whether it's to see Steve Rogers' ass or Thor's arms or the Hellicarrier or a gun toting raccoon or crazy awesome actions sequences... clearly it's appealing to more than just comic fans.

[writersblock51]

There's been much said about the possible over saturation of superheroes in movies and TV now.

 

I think Daredevil's critical success so far, as well as the strong & generally positive fan response to Season 1, has shown that - for now at least - there's enough audience interest to keep going.  There's talk about if and when Daredevil will get a Season 2.  I think Season 1 laid a strong enough foundation to warrant a season 2, as well.

 

For viewers familiar with the comics books, there is PLENTY to look forward to from the various hints and Easter eggs we got already.

For non comic book viewers, there's the prospect of a hero who is embracing his chosen path, a villain who is likewise embracing his (and isn't dead), and a vibrant neighborhood that is still dangerous and vulnerable. 

 

I don't know how much of Daredevil's story will play into Jessica Jones, Luke Cage and Iron Fist - and then the Defenders.  There's a lot of potential there.  And I think this season showed that binge-watching (or, at the very least, releasing all episodes at once) and more mature-audience material was a risk that's worked out so far. 

[FurryFury]

By the way, who is Iron Fist? I've seen quite a few mentions of Jessica Jones and Luke Cage even before the Netflix deal, but this is a character I've never even heard about.

[Dandesun]

Iron Fist/Danny Rand is the focus of the fourth Netflix series. He and Luke are best buddies. And there were quite a few Easter Eggs in Daredevil regarding Iron Fist. It's lots of mystical kung fu stuff which... hey, I grew up when King Fu was on TV all the time so I have a nostalgic fondness for that stuff. (Also Avatars Aang and Korra... I dig it, is what I'm saying.)

 

There was a Rand Corp. truck spotted... (don't have the exact episode, I'll look it up); the insignia that was stamped on Madame Gao's heroin was the Steel Serpent symbol which is one of Danny's major adversaries. When Madame Gao left and said that her homeland was further than China that's alluding to K'un Lun and the Cities of Heaven. Plus, the way Madame Gao laid out Matt with one shot... hmmm. Also, whoever Stick was talking to at the end of his episode. 

 

(I am so hoping we get to meet Misty Knight in the Iron Fist series... or even see her in Luke Cage first. Don't care. Misty's awesome. Ex-cop, bionic arm, Daughter of the Dragon along with Colleen Wing... Just saying...)

Edited April 20, 2015 by Dandesun

[Chicago Redshirt]

I was under the assumption that Stick was talking to

one of several good ninjas who have clashed with the Hand over the years called the Chaste. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaste_(Marvel_Comics) From the description there, I'd assume that it was probably Master Izo, but watching it, I'd assumed it was Stone.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Chicago Redshirt

[poppy-]

Just binged. Loved Ben and Foggy. Liked Fisk and Vanessa's odd relationship, enjoyed the pacing , loved the theological scenes.

I didn't realize the main character was doing an accent. I found him pretty sneery and charmless. But I guess that's not bad. A man defined by his anger doesn't have to be charismatic. Still: why DIDN'T he tell Foggy??

Karen gave me flashbacks to Donna from The West Wing except less clever, more sentimental, and very weirdly obsessed about pushing people into doing very dangerous things for the sake of justice.

I thought Stick was Richard Belzer for a minute there.

The opening credits = Hannibal, amiright?

So I get the blind but extraordinary senses thing. I haven't read the comic. I was expecting more Zatoichi, less 'not actually blind' . Even as it was , I do NOT understand how he was able to leap and parkour across rooftops the way he did when he was pursuing the blind woman to the heroin building. Can someone help me fanwank that?

[Eneya]

Yes, quite easy. In the movie with Afleck it is a bit like Toph from ATLA (senses through the ground when hit/stepped on it, like an image of everything around him which touches the ground) combined with smelling and sensing how things change when they push through the air (so... he is something like Skitter from Worm, who can sense changes, though she can see), which in result allows him to know what is happening and there is no delay in the process or having to look in the direction. I think a very good strategy against him will be incredibly strong noise and wind or combination of the above.

[The Crazed Spruce]

So I get the blind but extraordinary senses thing. I haven't read the comic. I was expecting more Zatoichi, less 'not actually blind' . Even as it was , I do NOT understand how he was able to leap and parkour across rooftops the way he did when he was pursuing the blind woman to the heroin building. Can someone help me fanwank that?

In the comics, they call it his "radar sense". (In the show, it's like the "world on fire" scene from the start of episode 5.) The way I see it, his brain processes all the information he collects from his enhanced senses (not just sound, smell, taste, and touch, but the minor senses nobody thinks about, like equilibrium, temperature change, vibration, and the like), collects the excess data in the portion of his brain that would normally process his vision, and interprets it as a mental image of his immediate surroundings. The rest is all training.

[FurryFury]

. It's lots of mystical kung fu stuff which... hey, I grew up when King Fu was on TV all the time so I have a nostalgic fondness for that stuff. (Also Avatars Aang and Korra... I dig it, is what I'm saying.)

 

So, is he Asian? I do love Avatar the Last Airbender (meh on Korra), so mystical eastern martial arts stuff sounds interesting. 

 

Don't care. Misty's awesome. Ex-cop, bionic arm, Daughter of the Dragon along with Colleen Wing... Just saying...)

 

Sounds great. I think you've just sold me on this Iron Fist show :)

[Dandesun]

Danny Rand is not Asian in the comic books although they could certainly make him so in the series. I haven't heard ANY casting rumors about that one yet so who knows? My little niece watches the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon on Disney and her favorite characters are White Tiger and Iron Fist in that one. (Danny's this combination of zen surfer dude but he's very cool so I get why she likes him.)

 

They did so well with Matt and Foggy in this series that I have high hopes for Luke and Danny. Those boys are tight. Heroes for Hire and they'd face down anyone to protect the other.

 

And I continue to be hopeful about Jessica as well. This series really did a lot to give me confidence for what's to come.

[Bec]

why DIDN'T he tell Foggy??

Trying to protect his friends from what he does? Plausible deniability? Though as Foggy pointed out, what Matt does could potentially drag Foggy down with him regardless, because who would believe Foggy had no idea what his best friend has been doing?

 

The entire season was basically one long origin story

Yeah, it sounds like Matt hasn't been vigilante-ing for that long. I'm still trying to figure out the timeline.

 

Matt said he didn't start doing the masked vigilante thing until after he and Foggy quit Landman & Zack. So how long has it been from then to the first episode when they've just started renting an office for their new law firm and only practiced law for 7 hours when they met Karen, their first client?

 

Weeks? Months?

 

It couldn't have been that much time, could it? But Matt went from awkwardly taking down that one guy who was preying on his daughter, to taking down a whole bunch of armed human traffickers by himself. So some time must have gone by.

 

glad Matt got body armor but I liked the all black look myself.

Yes! I know Matt's Daredevil costume is supposed to be all scary and makes you think of the Devil, not to mention how much he needs the layer of protection, but I thought he appeared more menacing in the black mask (even if Foggy did call that outfit his black pajamas). The new costume looks kind of silly in comparison (Fisk even called it a "silly little costume").

 

But I guess it's disarming in a way. The bad guys see that and would be all like "WTF?" and in the meantime he's already kicking their asses.

 

Is it bad that I'm going to miss the way Matt almost constantly gets hurt? His vulnerability is what makes this show so refreshing. Plus it was pretty much a running gag, the way he showed up at the office so many days looking like he's been to fight club.