Louie - General Discussion

[peeayebee]

Heck, one could even argue that her attempt to get close to him this season may have come as sort of rebound for her.

 

Good point. I didn't think about that. I think you're right.

 

Do I think Louie is going to rape Pamela?  No, I don't think Louie CK will take him there.

 

Right. That would pushed the audience away too far to come back from.

[Ronin Jackson]

Both Louie and Pamela have major issues no doubt.  Pamela is perfectly aware of Louis issues, and aware of his feelings towards her, and she has been rather callously manipulative.  Of course none of that excuses how Louie handled himself.  I agree he wouldn't have gone so far as to actually rape her... but nevertheless she was resisting and saying "no" and Louie wasn't stopping... so no matter how callous Pamela is being in toying with him, Louis is crossing the line.  And of course LCK knows that... he directed the scene to be extremely uncomfortable and even wrote the line "You can't even rape well" into the scene.  That scene was obviously not supposed to be funny (except perhaps for Louie's inappropriate celebratory fist pump after the scene).  This is never been a show that is 100% dedicated to laughs.

[ganesh]

This show is certainly a weird show. It's good, and I'm glad we have a tv climate where a show like this can thrive. But because we can rewatch, tweet, and talk about any given show, we tend to see things that aren't there.

 

I don't think Louie is making a statement about racism either. Given the recent #YesAllWomen and UCSB events, it's hard not to view the recent episodes through that lens, even though Louis made the show way before any of this happened. If anything, I think Louis is saying that guys are stupid, which, really, we are, and that because guys are stupid they can easily cross the line.

 

It doesn't excuse the behavior, nor should it, but being a stupid guy, I was like, 'shit, I hope I haven't done something like that.' And I haven't, but I think Louis is saying, 'don't be that guy.' And it goes both ways because in the past season, he actually got punched and forced to go down on a woman. That's just as bad. 

[Milburn Stone]

That scene was obviously not supposed to be funny (except perhaps for Louie's inappropriate celebratory fist pump after the scene).

 

And of course, even that fist pump is subject to differing interpretations. I'll tell you how I did not interpret it. I did not interpret it as: "Hooray, I forced a woman who didn't want to kiss me to kiss me!" I interpreted it as: "Hooray, Pamela conceded that she does feel something for me!"

[hincandenza]

I agree it wasn't actually a rape... yet. Because it was to me unquestionably sexual assault, and it hit me like a punch to the gut when she grabbed at the desk, or the door frame, to try to get away.

Louie the character is not Louis the creator, and I have faith this will go somewhere. It's a shame some people online have said they're done with the show because of this episode, because I think it is art, and is challenging, and is a view of assault that doesn't get shown (where its not cartoony and resolved by episodes end). I still believe this season is Louis exploring the male state of mind, and questioning behaviors and assumptions and prejudices in both genders about dating, romance, masculinity, etc. Louie is not supposed to be an unblemished protagonist here, and I don't think in past seasons he's really explored the idea of his character as self-destructive and clueless, as opposed to lightly poking fun at comic ineptness or wacky one-off women characters. This whole season seems like a cold, hard look at Louie the man, and by extension a lot of otherwise decent men and women who've swallowed some poisonous ideas about gender and relations.

[Milburn Stone]

I still believe this season is Louis exploring the male state of mind, and questioning behaviors and assumptions and prejudices in both genders about dating, romance, masculinity, etc...This whole season seems like a cold, hard look at Louie the man, and by extension a lot of otherwise decent men and women who've swallowed some poisonous ideas about gender and relations.

 

Beautifully said. I agree with all of the above.

[Ronin Jackson]

I saw another comment from Louis saying the reason for casting a black actress is because was about the delivery of the speech where she tells him he better go after the Letterman gig.  If a black women tells you to go get the job you better listen, to paraphrase.  Of course that was likely a joke, but nevertheless... 

 

Personally I don't really see a need to be strictly color-blind... I think we can acknowledge racial differences, which at a minimum are purely physical but they still exist, and not be racist.  I'd rather celebrate diversity by acknowledging differences and accepting them as something that makes the world a more interesting, beautiful place.

 

I don't know what Louis' intent was nor am I that interested in it... to me the casting decision came off as self consciously quirky but that sort of thing doesn't feel out of place on this show.  And I'll never criticize anything that brings a bit of diversity to the show that lacks it otherwise, no matter how self consciously quirky it is.

[Pallas]

In a way, the scene fit a certain trope that romantic films have been exploring for decades (and romantic fiction and drama, comedic and otherwise, for centuries before that). One which requires agreement from the audience if it is going to work--and therefore may not work anymore, as the audience becomes more splintered in its response. Basically it could be expressed as: IF two people would be best off if they could both just realize how much they need one another, and IF it takes an act of audacity on the part of one of those people to make both people recognize the truth of this, THEN it would be a great shame if that act of audacity never happened. -- Milburn Stone

 

 

I think you stated the romantic premise perfectly, and I believe Louie is showing his ass this year, all around the perimeter of your second point: "And IF it takes an act of audacity on the part of one of those people to make both people recognize the truth of this..."

 

I think CK is keenly aware that this agreement on the part of the audience, as you say, is now splintered.  On the part of the characters, the season has been one such act of audacity after another, some of them (mostly Louie's) particularly crazy and misguided; some of them hackneyed and sad, some of them tiny acts with big consequences, some of them of them brave failures.  

 

Brave failure: Vanessa's speech to Louie about fat girls.  He "got out of the situation" by taking her hand and, it would seem, then never seeing her again, as soon as possible.

 

Hackneyed (on their parts) and sad (on ours): Louie and Janet's attempts to communicate, with and without the girls, with and without third parties, with and without recourse to the murderous banalities of relationship hospice.  

 

Tiny acts with big consequences: Astronaut/model takes a flyer on the sad comedian, takes him home and beds him, hears him but doesn't listen when he tells her, "Don't tickle me," and does so playfully -- he reacts reflexively, and she gets maimed.   

 

Crazy, misguided stuff: Jane's decision to see what happens when people live out their dreams.  A lot of Louie's fantasies about Amia, intercut with scenes of uncanny beauty, like Amia's miming the hairdryer, or the moments when God stopped time to listen to two people play their violins.  Louie's decisions that he must court Amia, or wait, hold on -- maybe what that means is that he must fuck Amia!...Louie's pillow-fighting a pillow-less Pamela into a kiss that must have felt like kissing a closed sphincter. 

 

All the ways that people get it wrong, breath-takingly wrong, with one another.  I keep thinking of Dylan's "Idiot Wind," with the horribly hilarious couplet in the chorus, "We're idiots, babe...It's a wonder that we still know how to breathe." 

[benteen]

I wasn't planning on watching the whole thing as I sometimes have to be in a certain mood to watch something 90+ minutes long.  But I'm glad I did because I thought it was great.  Loved seeing young Louie and I enjoyed the story.  The guy playing his science teacher Mr. Hoffman was really good, very likeable.  Jeremy Renner is a ridiculously good actor who does a great accent.  That role was apparently supposed to be played by Phillip Seymour Hoffman and the dedication at the end was to "Phil Hoffman."  Although I could have seen PSH in the science teacher role.

 

And on the plus side, Louie didn't try to rape anyone this week...

Edited June 10, 2014 by benteen

[Milburn Stone]

I don't think Louie is making a statement about racism either.

 

It might be a fine distinction, but I don't think Louis is making a statement about racism; I think he's casting in a colorblind way because he feels the right moral choice is to treat color as irrelevant. Why that's not a statement is that he's not presuming to tell anyone else what to do. But he has decided to "be the change he wants to see," as the saying goes.

[possibilities]

All this "you're just a kid" crap really annoys me. Why didn't anyone suggest Louie earn the money to pay the school the $3000 he owed them? Not even a little community service? No wonder he was suffering from the dreaded "anomie" and felt helpless and drifty and out of touch and invisible and existentially insecure and had no sense of consequences or responsibility. All the sane adults were getting him off the hook all the time and never asked anything of him, either before or after he fucked up.

[BeatrixK]

Very interesting episode.  Whoever cast 'Young Louie' deserves a raise.  Jeremy Renner is ridiculously talented.

 

Although I couldn't help feeling, throughout the episode, that it was 'Louie does ABC After School Special.'

[benteen]

Louie does an After School Special or an episode of Freaks and Geeks (a personal favorite of mine).

 

I honestly thought Mr. Hoffman was going to reveal that he did know Louie stole it but was covering up for him and was going to be the one to tell him to get his act together.  I agree that Louie should have had to do something to make up for what he did.

 

The type of menace Jeremy Renner's character exuded was impressive.  It's not explosive but still scary as hell.

[TeresaDee]

I enjoyed this episode as well. What a great teacher, And Louie broke his heart. There is no doubt that that was to be the PSH role, a natural. I would love an update on the lives of some of the characters, but bringing them into his current life would feel too contrived.

When your children do things you did at their age, it does bring you back, and it is a conflict. My daughter was caught drinking at school at Lilly's age, and she had Relatively significant consequences. Now that she's 20, we can joke about it, but I still think I (and the school) did the right thing at the time.

[peeayebee]

I'm still digesting this ep. I enjoyed it, and yet I can't really fit it into the rest of the season. Of course, we've had eps where Louie (and his ex) were trying to deal with Jane's problems, so to see Louie get blindsided by Lily's pot smoking is connected.

[Ronin Jackson]

It's interesting how varied the tone of this show can be.  It's gone from belly laughs to absurd surrealism to really dark and uncomfortable places, but these episodes represented new territory.  I can't really think of any other episodes in the show so far as straight and dramatic as these episodes (there probably wasn't a single moment strictly played for laughs).  I was impressed by how well it was all handled.  A lot of terrific acting all around, from those already noted in this thread, to Louie's mother and Louis C.K. himself, who did a nice job with the shock, anger and conflict of having to deal with catching his daughter doing something he did at almost the same age.

 

I'm not sure how this will play into the rest of the season, except with regards to the overall tone.  The uncomfortable scene between Louie and Pamela that ended the last episode and these episodes are setting the tone, I would guess, for a fairly serious and reflective final two episodes, but we will see...

[Fisher King]

My simple takeaway from this episode is that it was mostly isolated from the rest of season - to be just that and little else - except for the theme of the parental issues with the girls.

 

So much of this episode appealed to the mischievous boy inside that I haven't revisited in a long time. Thoroughly enjoyed the camaraderie between the boys, Louie and the teacher, Louie and the dealer  -- and it's interesting that pot was the thing that helped bond young bully & victims together. It was also the thing (plus Louie's thievery) that ultimately destroyed their group.

 

Skipp Sudduth & Jeremy Renner were great. Wonderful acting by all. Loved the extra long episode.

 

The only thing that could have made this ep better would be if Philip Seymour Hoffman had been in it.

So, fuck you, PSH for killing yourself and not being this show!

[possibilities]

Well, in keeping with the creepy rapey tone, there was the opening scene where Louie is with his friend, who says he's there "for the chicks." What middle aged guy hangs around the park or playground with 12 to 15 year old girls "for the chicks"?

[Uncle Benzene]

Oh, for the love of fuck. I don't even know what the hell I'm watching anymore. Suddenly this show, run by arguably the funniest man on the planet, has become the most morose, depressing...

 

For crying out loud, Louis. I can respect and appreciate it for what it is, but the bait & switch factor is just off the charts at this point.

 

Surely it's not my fault that when I tune in to watch Louis CK, I'm expecting to laugh my ass off? Or, at the very least, expecting just a few goddamn yuks? One or two? Is that too much to ask? Is that no longer what you do?

 

Since when did this show turn into Six Feet Under? Jesus, CK. Throw me a fuckin' bone over here. This is not what I signed up for. At all.

[Tara Ariano]

Uncle Benzene, I could not agree more. When I looked at the clock and it was only 34 minutes in with an hour yet to go, I had to turn it off. My time is more valuable. (I...changed to 16 & Pregnant and I REGRET NOTHING.)

[annzeepark914]

Enjoyed reading all these comments.  I wanted to stop watching last night...but that "little Louie" kept me glued to the show.  No emoting, no hysterics - he just showed so well the confusion, insecurity, stupidity, vulnerability, sweetness, inability to express himself, etc., that so many children go through on their way to adulthood. And with that red hair, fair skin and expressive eyes, he looked like a young Louie.  Agree, the kid should've been told to reimburse the school by getting an after school job or summer job to earn the money.  I liked this week's episode much more so than last week's creepy and somewhat boring episodes (boring for me was his attempt to have a relationship with someone who doesn't speak the same language).

[peeayebee]

I certainly want to get laughs from Louie, but I'm confident enough in Louis CK that I know even if there aren't laughs, there'll be something interesting and entertaining. As I'm watching and realizing this ep is a serious one, I just readjust my expectations and go with the flow. 

 

As I said, I can't quite place this ep in the totality of the season yet, but then we haven't seen the whole season yet, and I'm sure once it ends, the value of "In the Woods" will be clearer.

[benteen]

The tone of Louie's show has seemed to change like MASH did back in the day.

[Ronin Jackson]

I can understand why some insist the show should stay true to their perception of what the show should be, but there is a reason why LCK wouldn't do the show unless he had complete creative control... and it's pretty much precisely so that television executives wouldn't force him to meet your expectations.   The good news is that 99.9% of everything else on television does have executives looking out for you.  In a way it's just bad luck that you've chosen to watch the one show where one guy gets to create whatever he wants.

 

The show has always been a hit and miss affair... there's been episodes I've had to stop watching because they've been so painfully awkward.  And there's always been a dark, depressing undercurrent to the show.  Heck, the poster art is Louie looking depressed with his face buried in his hand.  I might actually be starting to understand the point, if there is one, of Louis making such a self consciously quirky creative decision like casting a black actress to play his white ex-wife... he's telling us to check our expectations at the door.  If I thought the episode was poorly written or poorly acted, I'd have criticized it for that, but really it was probably the best written and acted episode of the season, and perhaps one of the best of the entire series.  It just wasn't a comedy.

[EdnasEdibles]

It's always been hit or miss but the hits happened more often. Now, for me, it's more misses. I had no idea it was a 90 minute episode when I started watching and by the time I noticed, it was too late to start watching something else. It could have been an hour. This ain't Sherlock.

Is he surrounded by too many "yes men" lately? I used to be like "oh good, Louie is on tonight!" And now I'm more like "eh, Louie was on, I guess I'll try to watch it sometime."

[Irlandesa]

Well yes, he is surrounded by "yes men."  And they're all named Louis C.K.

 

I understand wanting more comedy from someone as funny as Louis but I've never seen his show as about that.  It's one man's personal project that sometimes wants to make me laugh and other times wants to say something.  I'm not saying I'll always watch it or that everyone should be satisfied with it but that is what it has always been.  The only reason it get submitted into the "comedy" categories for awards was because of its length. 

 

I don't know that I'd rewatch this episode.  I enjoyed it for the performances.  Even though Mr. Hoffman was likely meant for PS Hoffman, I can't imagine anyone doing a better job than Seth.  Renner had just the right amount of sleaze.  Teen Louie was well acted, although I still prefer the younger Louie married to the younger Janet and it was good to see his mom again. 

 

I do think he was too easy on Jane, though. 

Edited June 11, 2014 by Irlandesa

[Ronin Jackson]

Well yes, he is surrounded by "yes men."  And they're all named Louis C.K.

 

Bingo.  I imagine it looks a little like that scene in "Being John Malkovich" where Malkovich goes through his own portal.

[benteen]

Well yes, he is surrounded by "yes men."  And they're all named Louis C.K.

 

I understand wanting more comedy from someone as funny as Louis but I've never seen his show as about that.  It's one man's personal project that sometimes wants to make me laugh and other times wants to say something.  I'm not saying I'll always watch it or that everyone should be satisfied with it but that is what it has always been.  The only reason it get submitted into the "comedy" categories for awards was because of its length. 

 

I don't know that I'd rewatch this episode.  I enjoyed it for the performances.  Even though Mr. Hoffman was likely meant for PS Hoffman, I can't imagine anyone doing a better job than Seth.  Renner had just the right amount of sleaze.  Teen Louie was well acted, although I still prefer the younger Louie married to the younger Janet and it was good to see his mom again. 

 

I do think he was too easy on Jane, though. 

 

I thought he should have been honest about Jane about his own experiences.

[Milburn Stone]

To me, it's not bait and switch, because the show long ago transcended any genre. I don't tune in anymore looking for laughs, although I often get them. I tune in looking for the work of a brilliant man who has turned into a brilliant filmmaker, who miraculously has been given a forum by a major media outlet to use as he pleases. And I'm never disappointed.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Milburn Stone

[cpcathy]

I wouldn't rewatch this episode, but I enjoyed watching it unfold. Louie is a rare show where you really don't know what's going to happen. I thought the teacher did a great job, but Hoffman would have also been wonderful. Jeremy Renner was great, I love the menace mixed with the jovial guy mixed with the guy who loves his cat Pepper. Kiss a cat on any TV show, you're okay in my book.

[Lone Wolf]

I like the fact that CK is changing things up.  From standalone eps to arcs to schmaltz to awkwardness to WTF?  I think this is the most creative and original season so far, and I haven't deleted this ep from my DVR yet because I do want to watch it again - there was a lot take in over 90 minutes.

 

I also agree that young Louie got off way too easy (and the therapist really irritated me), but childhood experiences make the adult so maybe there's some insight to be found there as to why adult Louie is the way he is, e.g., young Louis was pretty emotionally disconnected about his parents' divorce. 

[FreakyBunny]

Ugh. I was Louie back in the day. I related often during this episode. I think he did a great job depicting what guys like us went through in the 80s. This is not my favourite season, but it's worth watching. It's uncomfortable, and it's on TV. Louis CK is one of the very few who can pull that off these days. Hit or miss, he's doing important work. 

Edited June 11, 2014 by FreakyBunny

[Pacodakat]

Everyone treats Louie CK like he's some comic guru that can do no wrong but that episode.... (what I could get through) was clunky and sooo  afterschool specially. This has been the worse season so far for this COMEDY. 

[ganesh]

 

I can understand why some insist the show should stay true to their perception of what the show should be, but there is a reason why LCK wouldn't do the show unless he had complete creative control... and it's pretty much precisely so that television executives wouldn't force him to meet your expectations.   The good news is that 99.9% of everything else on television does have executives looking out for you.  In a way it's just bad luck that you've chosen to watch the one show where one guy gets to create whatever he wants.

That's why I'm so glad that shows on netflix and amazon are successful. They don't have tv execs and focus groups and 1950s FCC regulations to have to deal with. Not that cable really does, but they have to watch out because they still need sponsors. HBO/Shotime count too, but you have to pay more for them. FX is free and the others don't cost as much. FX actually has a decent history with creative latitude, and AMC. Hopefully this means more networks will get the hell out of the way and let people make the show they want to make and tell the story they want to tell. 

 

Louis never condescends to the kids, which is one reason why I think he's a good parent. Not that I have kids, but from what I observe irl. I'm surprised he didn't level with Jane eventually. You've got to pull her out of there when you see her smoking pot, but railing into her, which he didn't do, wouldn't have worked at that point, when he dragged her out and then they went out to eat. I would have thought that he might have said more in the scene at the end. I suppose, 'say good bye to your child hood covered it.' You can't scream at her because she'll just smoke it more. And I don't think she was smoking to 'medicate', I think she did it because she was around other kids who were doing it too. It's kind of no big deal in the big picture sense, but it's not good for a 12 y/o to smoke, health-wise.

 

I'm not surprised Louie got away with it. Sometimes you do. Granted, it's a lot of money. Stealing 10 scales was dumb though. No one likes a greedy thief. 

 

[hannah8976]

I love this show's structure.  There is so much derivative garbage on TV, with reality TV shows that are 60% action, 30% telling you what's coming up, and 30% what you just saw.  Or sitcoms being remade out of moves (totally don't get that one).  So, here's something that I watch and I always think "huh, I'm not sure where we're going...."  and It's AWESOME.  And maybe I didn't so much enjoy the ride on a given week, but I'll sure back next week.  It takes me places, too, like when I was that age and I did some fucked up shit for no good reason (but for all the obvious reasons) and I got off easy and so forgot about it and went along my quasi-normal, highly-productive life and then 30-years later, and episode of Louie jolted me back to being what it was like when you're 12 and doing something you know is wrong but you really don't give a fuck.  And you wonder "how much did that event shape me now?"

[marsman]

I think the whole point of the relationship and the arch of this story was that Louie was falling in love with someone with whom he can't communicate.  Of course he could have learned Hungarian, or she could have learned English, or they could have used Google Translate, but that's not the point.  The relationship was more symbolic and surreal than realistic... that's pretty much the case with the whole show.

 

The show is hit and miss for sure, but I love it because it's one of the only shows on television which allows one person to have such a unique creative vision.  If television executives could review the script and put the kibosh on various aspects of it, it would be a completely different show.  Some of the more awkward, painful moments would be gone, but so would some of the best things about it.  I'll happily take that trade... I wish there were more shows where television executives had zero input.

 

I have to agree with you on both points. First, I've had relationships with people who couldn't speak outstanding English (granted a lot better than Amia) and lived in another country, but it was totally possible to communicate through other methods besides language: eye contact, smiles, body language, etc. It's a completely different kind of energy and passion. And truthfully those relationships can never last (for me at least), which was echoed in Louie. It was never going to work out for Louie and Amia, but that was never really the point I don't think...

 

And to your 2nd point, the awkwardness and "misses" of this show are part of what it makes it wonderful and realistic :)

 

I also really don't think Amia was referring to the sex as "no good". I interpreted it as being "I didn't want to have sex because it's too emotionally painful to say goodbye now". And I think Louie understood that as well (eventually).

[Tara Ariano]

Part 2 of 3. Louie and Pamela go on a date.

[Tara Ariano]

Conclusion. The fourth-season finale focuses on Louie and Pamela.

[hoodooznoodooz]

I thought that the actor portraying Mr. Hoffman was really terrific, except for during the scene when he and Louie are in the principal's office. I thought it seemed forced, not as natural. But he did a fantastic job as the guy that every high school student is going to say was his/her favorite teacher for years and years after.

[zxy556575]

Oh, for the love of fuck. I don't even know what the hell I'm watching anymore. Suddenly this show, run by arguably the funniest man on the planet, has become the most morose, depressing...

 

Yep. I'm not your life coach, Louis. Enough, already.

 

My reaction to the show is similar to how I felt about Men of a Certain Age. I appreciated that it was so well written and acted, but damn. What a downer.

[possibilities]

I'm actually dreading this.

[annzeepark914]

Oh, God...say it ain't so, Louie. Pamela? Again? What...are you a glutton for punishment? I'm sad already that this'll be the last episode and now your finale will include Pamela?

 

Interesting that both Louie and Fargo have their finale's next week (interesting but depressing--I've enjoyed watching these unusual shows for grown-ups followed by great discussions here at previously.tv).

[CodeNameDuchess]

I'm actually dreading this.

Me too!  I couldn't even get through the Woods episode because I kept thinking about that last scene with Pamela.  Louie's actions seriously need to be addressed. 

[Sader87]

I thought it was brilliant but I'm also very much the target audience for this ep i.e I'm a Massachusetts native/resident of a certain age.

 

What I love about the Louie show is you really nevah know what to expect from ep to ep or even from scene to scene. Some episodes may not be your cup o' tea but I much prefer that happening than watch 99.9% of the drivel on TV today.

[annzeepark914]

Some episodes may not be your cup o' tea but I much prefer that happening than watch 99.9% of the drivel on TV today.

 

You said it!  The past several weeks, watching Louie and Fargo, have been amazing (I'd just about given up on ever watching TV shows again).  Hope both programs have had great ratings. 

[msani19]

 

I'm actually dreading this.

THIS x a million + 1.

I think it's going to be worse than I expect. So what happened in "Pamela, Part I" was what exactly? Just boo.

[benteen]

Got to admit it was a little surreal to see Marc Maron show up and talk about his show.

 

Speaking of which, Pamela actually brought up the fact that Janet is black.  Funny that the show addressed that.

Edited June 17, 2014 by benteen

[annzeepark914]

What does Louie see in Pamela?  The scene in Central Park was wasted on me since I was constantly worrying about them getting mugged (or worse).  I did enjoy the art gallery and its absurdities (some of which looked a bit familiar).

Edited June 17, 2014 by annzeepark914

[annzeepark914]

I sure didn't enjoy this last evening of watching Louie.  The scene in which they were taking photos of their underwear was so stupid that I changed the channel (returned 10 minutes later).  The only good part for me was when she told him to get his own TV show (instead of being jealous of his friend).

[Tara Ariano]

Here's my post on tonight's episodes (and the season).