S04.E17: Best Laid Plans

[XtremeOne1]

Yikes, the author is a giant let down. Could they not get a bigger/better actor? It's sad that the reveal feel so flat since it was a start of series thing....

Edited March 30, 2015 by XtremeOne1

[ramble]

I've been over this show for awhile & watch out of habit & because a kid likes it so we watch together. Tonight was more piles of boring stupid. I'm not a Snow/Charming fan. They are too ooey-gooey for me so I wasn't disappointed in their behavior in this episode, I just didn't care. I do enjoy Maleficent & thought her sorrow was well done. Why do I keep tuning in? I want to know what happened to Will's Red Queen & have a secret wish to see Henry turned into a wooden boy. Other than that? Meh. I did like the Walt name drop because this show is all about synergy & I appreciate the boldness with which they go about it.

[Camera One]

I hated this episode with the fire of a thousand suns.  They even ruined the unicorn mobile.  

 

I just cannot believe that Snow, who as a child was willing to let her mother die by rejecting the Candle, would sacrifice someone else's baby, especially when the Apprentice said every child is capable of dark and light, with free will and an equal chance at both.  The whole subplot felt so blatantly contrived, just so that they could have Snow and Charming make that dumb speech at the end about how they're not heroes anymore and need to spend the rest of their existence redeeming themselves.  As usual, they spent the entire episode making mostly Snow but also Charming either stupid or selfish, complete with a "I killed Cora" reference.  Their lying to Emma made no sense in "Unforgiven" and it made no more sense in this one, except to drag out the so-called drama.  

 

Why didn't August just explain everything he knew about the Author at the end of last episode?  At that point, Emma wouldn't have been so emotionally distraught and could have realized the Sorcerer's Apprentice imprisoned the Rogue Author into the Book for a reason.  And this Rogue guy should not be freed, plus he has nothing to do with Regina not getting a happy ending now, since he has been trapped in the freakin' book.  

 

And of course, they have Emma release the Rogue Author, which will result in even more dangers now as they race against Rumple and the villains to find him.  Cue another apocalyptic scenario, no doubt.

 

Why didn't Regina photograph the replica of the page again?  Did they not look at the photo to see the weird magic glare? Why were the villains walking around and going by car?  Why not do a locating spell to find Henry and poof themselves there?  Why didn't Rumple just go along and freeze Henry, and grab the book?  The writing felt designed to drag it out to fill the episode, since Rumple could have done it all, without Maleficent putting everyone to sleep.  Are we supposed to believe Rumple needed Maleficent because of that?  And suddenly, he was so warmed by Maleficent's plea at the end he showed her what happened to her baby?

 

August was one of Emma's greatest friends?  Seriously?  

 

In the flashback, why didn't Maleficent run after Snow and Charming, put Charming to sleep, and then use some magic to impede Snow with the egg?

 

The only two parts I liked was seeing how Ursula and Cruella ended up in our world, and I must say it was nice to see Henry showing some intelligence.  

 

I don't give the writers any kudos for saying that the Authors only recorded what they saw.  Because, duh...  

 

So exactly why does Rumple need to turn Emma dark before the Author can write a happy ending for the villains again?

Edited March 30, 2015 by Camera One

[Actionmage]

Why do people worship gods and fellow rules supposedly dictated to them by said gods?... my point is, seeing themselves as fictional stories and characters makes it easier for the characters to remove any and all personal responsibility they have over their own choices and decisions, and the consequences that follow them.

 

As to the first part of that response:  No one in Storybrooke is worshipping The Author. I get what you mean, but no one is feeling reverent towards or worshipful about The Author.  No one is reacting to a person with greater magical ability than Rumple as a god or god-like being. I also don't see folks sighing in relief that they don't have to worry about feeling guilty about stuff now that The Author is around to pin stuff on.  Snowing are still feeling bad about all manner of things and paying like they usually tend to pay. 

 

As to the second part: So people whose lives are written down in book form, even fictionalized, automatically start mentally removing themselves from horrible actions they did, simply because someone wrote it down?  Folks that saw their stories fictionalized on any of the Law & Orders, in our world,  get to think 'Hey! You know, since I had my story made into an entertainment for public consumption, I really don't need to go to jail/be in jail/ pay my restitution to the people I hurt/ blahblahblah excusecakes"?   Personal responsibility comes with free will, especially if you are going for the title of hero. Just because you see your life written down, doesn't absolve folks. All the folks that the various curses and spells have plopped into Storybrooke may see their lives written in a book, but they have lived those experiences. In other words, they are seeing their lives.

 

I am not seeing folks' line of thought as " Oh, this is a story and I don't need to be concerned about not being an ass because It Wasn't Me, as such."  Others, like Snow in particular, seems to treat it as an album of family pictures, which also includes lots of friends as well. They look at that book almost as a history book, it seems. "Well, what does the book say?" is almost like the Storybrooke version of "Look it up in the encyclopedia" or "Google it."

 

the idea of giving away total power to someone and just sit back and relax is very appealing to someone who has suffered and has been in total control of their life for a long time and have a hard time letting go and just be happy without waiting for the knife to be stabbed into their back, people like Rumple and Regina. hence why this entire arc is focused on them the villains, rather the heros.

 

But how does that explain Ursula returning with her father after he returned her voice? Then keeping her bargain with the very man whose action stole her voice? She wasn't "Thank the Author! My voice is returned!"  Ursula, Poseidon and Killian all came together, eventually, and made their peace with each other. While I don't think Ursula is so reformed that she's a mermaid Pollyanna, Ursula found enough inner peace about things that she was willing to go home with her father.  Who realized that due to misdirected anger and extreme overprotectiveness, he harmed his daughter instead of keeping her safe.  Killian, apologized for his part in lashing out at both of the folks whose family drama he ended up participating in.  

 

If the writers of the show we watch want to consistently show how the villains of all the stories in Henry's book were manipulated by someone with more power than they have, maybe not showing how one of those "manipulated" villains can relatively peacefully handle her ish with her father and Hook?  It just points up how anyone older than Henry was foolish to believe The Author had much say about how folks acted. tennisgurl's "WHY did everyone just assume that the Author had the power to do anything he wanted?" was more about adult characters/people not taking a moment and thinking through what they were actually saying, then proceeding from there, I believe. (tennisgurl can set me straight.) 

 

While I believe that your response, in our world, is totally valid, it doesn't seem to fit the people of Storybrooke. People in our world don't threaten to actually physically harm/kill The Almighty/ the name you choose for your deity.  Rumple and Regina have.

 

eta:

 

And of course, they have Emma release the Rogue Author, which will result in even more dangers now as they race against Rumple and the villains to find him.  Cue another apocalyptic scenario, no doubt.

 

Sorry to add to this long post, but? If the Naughty Author doesn't have the Special Quill or the location of the current Author ( as he's been trapped for 30 years in a book), then how does he bring about the theoretical apocalypse?  He seems a garden variety mage, like our hero-villains for this half season.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Actionmage

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Snow and Charming's lack of logic was infuriating. So we're just going to steal this dragon egg from Maleficent, let this guy put all the potential darkness from our unborn baby into the egg, and then we'll just give the egg back so Maleficent can have an evil dragon that's twice as dark as normal! Wait, what do you mean we can't give her egg back? WHAT HAVE WE DONE?!!!

 

Apparently Emma inherited their stupidity. August tells her that the author was a power hungry nutjob who decided rather than recording history, he would use his pen to manipulate people's fates all in the name of better stories. He was so bad that the apprentice punished him by trapping him inside this book, and Emma's reaction is, "Great! Let's use the key to let him out so he can run amok!" What the hell, Emma? Stop rebelling against your parents for one second and THINK.

 

On top of everyone losing their brains, now I have to deal with Zelena, the most boring villain of all, coming back? Nooooooo!

 

“First and best friend.”  Um  . . Unless there’s a lot the show hasn’t told us yet--which is possible, granted--Emma, you spent three hours together.  What?  That’s one Lord of the Rings movie, not a serious friendship.  If it’s ⅓ of the time it takes a Hobbit to complete a quest, it’s not an epic friendship, yet.

Ha! It's funny because it's true.

Edited March 30, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Arnella]

 

They are really painting Rumple into a corner.

My first thought to this was, "MY Rumple will manipulate you into that corner and trap you there"!  But then I realized that Rumple has been reduced to just glue to hold the queens story together since they got to Storybrooke except for mooning over Belle (ugh).   Now they are trying to make him sympathetic because his evil and selfishness have given him a heart problem??  He is the all-powerful Dark One for pete's sake!  

 

 

The whole subplot felt so blatantly contrived, just so that they could have Snow and Charming make that dumb speech at the end about how they're not heroes anymore and need to spend the rest of their existence redeeming themselves.  As usual, they spent the entire episode making mostly Snow but also Charming either stupid or selfish, complete with a "I killed Cora" reference.  Their lying to Emma made no sense in "Unforgiven" and it made no more sense in this one, except to drag out the so-called drama.

You have succinctly summed up everything I've hated about this show since Season 2.

[Dani-Ellie]

Holy crap, you guys. I completely get that if you hated this, there's nothing I can say to change your mind, but if the standard for "hero" is "never does anything wrong ever," we'd have no heroes. I mean, look at Emma, for crying out loud. I think we all agree that she's attained hero status but her past is not squeaky clean, either.

 

Snow and Charming did a terrible thing. They learned the hard way that predicting the future isn't certain. (Neither one of their unicorn visions was untrue ... it just didn't happen the way it looked like it would.) But the whole point of their ending scene is that they dedicated the rest of their lives to attempting to make up for it. They thought there was no way to get the baby back; that was the first thing they suggested. In the absence of that, they did what they could to atone for their mistake. The fact that they were so broken up about it is a good thing, as far as I'm concerned. Because good people feel bad when they hurt other people. If they'd just gone on about their lives, all, "Oh well, too bad, so sad," then I would have had some issues.

 

“First and best friend.”  Um  . . Unless there’s a lot the show hasn’t told us yet--which is possible, granted--Emma, you spent three hours together.  What?  That’s one Lord of the Rings movie, not a serious friendship.  If it’s ⅓ of the time it takes a Hobbit to complete a quest, it’s not an epic friendship, yet.

 

This just made me sad for Emma, because how few friends had she had to consider that relationship a best friend relationship?

[YaddaYadda]

August was one of Emma's greatest friends?  Seriously?

 

Well, she considered Lily her best friend and as far as we know, she spent like 3 hours with her?  'Nuff said!

 

Imagine that, I actually don't have a problem with the Author bits.  And I wonder if the only free will he messed with is the "heroes".  Heroes are boring, let's up the ante.  The villains are already villains and they already do self-serving things, heroes usually think twice about it.  I guess it all depends how long the Peddler has been at it.  I could see him stopping Regina from going into the tavern to meet douchenozzle.

 

Actually, I just realizes I didn't care.  This episode while not horrible will not be bringing back casual viewers in two weeks.  I'm expecting low ratings when they come back on April 12th.  I know I'm not interested in whatever.

 

Also, I really hate Snow.  I hate Snow and how she wants her kid to be perfect, how nothing registers with her unless it has to do with Regina.  Grow a fucking pair David, seriously, God.  Grow...a...PAIR.  Protecting Emma?  But Regina should have her happy ending.

 

Fuck you Snow.  And also, not a fan of Henry, but fuck you Snowing for bullying him like that.

Edited March 30, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Serena]

Imagine that, I actually don't have a problem with the Author bits.  And I wonder if the only free will he messed with is the "heroes".  Heroes are boring, let's up the ante.  The villains are already villains and they already do self-serving things, heroes usually think twice about it.  I guess it all depends how long the Peddler has been at it.  I could see him stopping Regina from going into the tavern to meet douchenozzle.

Aaaaaaaand apparently he actually didn't mess with the "heroes"' free will. Jane Espenson tweeted that he only messed with the Apprentice's free will. Okay, sure...

[Curio]

So exactly why does Rumple need to turn Emma dark before the Author can write a happy ending for the villains again?

 

My guess is that Rumple's plan is totally different from what he's told us so far. We'll probably find out later he didn't even need to find the Author to carry out his plan, he just needed an excuse to get back inside the Storybrooke town line.

 

Holy crap, you guys. I completely get that if you hated this, there's nothing I can say to change your mind, but if the standard for "hero" is "never does anything wrong ever," we'd have no heroes. I mean, look at Emma, for crying out loud. I think we all agree that she's attained hero status but her past is not squeaky clean, either.

 

I can't speak for everyone else who didn't like the episode, but Snow and Charming doing a "bad thing" isn't the reason why I'm flipping tables over here. I'm flipping tables because the writers just introduced the idea of forcing people to do things beyond their free will, which is a huge slippery slope that could lead to easily forgiving characters of their past sins because "the author made them do it." Do we know for certain what acts this rogue author has forced our characters to do yet? No. But knowing these writers, I know this entire plot is just going to prop up the villains and kick the heroes in the jewels. I'll bet you anything that Snow and Charming's decision to steal the egg was free will, but many of Regina's evil acts was just the author forcing her to be more evil to make the story more interesting. I realize I'm jumping to a conclusion here, but after watching this show for how many years, I can easily see this scenario play out in my head.

 

The writers better lay down some damn rules about what this rogue author has and hasn't meddled with to the minute details. Otherwise, any time I rewatch earlier seasons, I'm always going to be thinking about whether Character A or B was actually very brave/evil/stupid or if the author just made them that way. And that's not a fun way to watch a show that's supposedly about making your own way in life.

[kili]

If that Author had written everything up to that point, then Snow and Charming's secret should have been in the book.

 

Maybe the apprentice ripped up that story because he was mad he was manipulated? Why must I fanwank this? We saw the author writing the story of Evil Snow/Charming, so they should tell us why it isn't in the book. Stop leaving dangling plots A&E before somebody magics you into a book.

 

Maybe they should spend less time trying to find the Author and more time figuring out how to get the Apprentice out of the hat since the Apprentice seems to know what is going on.

 

I was a little peeved about Charming want to burn the page since he knows somebody is living in the page. Babynapping isn't enough? He wants to start cold-blooded murdering people?

 

And then I'm peeved at Snow who doesn't give that as a reason for not burning the page. She doesn't want to burn the page so that Regina can get her happy ending? The author is trapped in the book and not preventing anybody from getting a happy ending. You've just proven Regina being sad today is not his fault. The only thing preventing Regina from her happy ending is Regina. Why in the same episode where Snowing figures out how to get their happy ending do they not figure out that is how Regina gets hers too?

 

Way to ruin the unicorn mobile. Now I understand why it was left in Gold's shop.

 

How is Regina Snowing's biggest problem in the EF? We've seen Mal burn up three guards because she was too lazy to walk to the next bridge, but she knows exactly who stole her baby and she does nothing about it? I guess I can understand not wanting to attack them while they were holding the egg, but after they put it down, why weren't they turned into ash? Why weren't entire villages put to sleep and destroyed? Why wasn't their entire kingdom burnt?  Did Mal really spend the next 6 months doing nothing but moping?

 

Did Mal never ask her two besties how they ended up in Storybrooke and what they did for the last 30 years? Did she never whine at them about how she'd like to know where her baby is? Did Cruella and Ursula never think to clue Mal in about her baby? Okay, for reasons we will never be told, they risked their lives to try to protect Mal's baby, but then do nothing to protect her when they end up in a strange land. Wouldn't the first thing they should do is tell her when they see see her again and she's still all sad about the baby is that she is now in the world with that baby?  Why do they go drinking and vandalizing instead? Why must I fanwank this?

[YaddaYadda]

Aaaaaaaand apparently he actually didn't mess with the "heroes"' free will. Jane Espenson tweeted that he only messed with the Apprentice's free will. Okay, sure...

Well, fuck me sideways then.  If you have to explain what you wrote, then it means you've done a poor job.

 

Did someone ask her how long the Peddler has been at it in writing this stupid book?  so Snowing behaved like their Charming selves, the Apprentice got his free will taken from him.  

 

So what is the price of magic now?  The price that Snowing had/have to pay?  Have they paid it yet?  Is it that they were separated from Emma for 28 years and didn't get to see her grow up which is if you ask me only fair after they did the same to Maleficent.  Is it that Emma was born with magic and can't catch a break?  Is it that their daughter was bounced from home to home never finding a family or a home?  That she was a teenager, pregnant, in jail, betrayed?

 

Or has that price not been paid yet?  

[Dani-Ellie]

I'm flipping tables because the writers just introduced the idea of forcing people to do things beyond their free will, which is a huge slippery slope that could lead to easily forgiving characters of their past sins because "the author made them do it." Do we know for certain what acts this rogue author has forced our characters to do yet? No. But knowing these writers, I know this entire plot is just going to prop up the villains and kick the heroes in the jewels. I'll bet you anything that Snow and Charming's decision to steal the egg was free will, but many of Regina's evil acts was just the author forcing her to be more evil to make the story more interesting. I realize I'm jumping to a conclusion here, but after watching this show for how many years, I can easily see this scenario play out in my head.

 

And I prefer to wait and see what happens before I start flipping tables. There are zero indications in this episode that (the only) Rogue Author did anything beyond what we saw him do.

 

I much prefer the idea of one Rogue Author than everything that ever happened is predetermined by said Authors. The whole reason Rogue Author got put in the book was because messing with free will is bad.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Dani-Ellie

[Serena]

Do we know for certain what acts this rogue author has forced our characters to do yet? No. But knowing these writers, I know this entire plot is just going to prop up the villains and kick the heroes in the jewels. I'll bet you anything that Snow and Charming's decision to steal the egg was free will, but many of Regina's evil acts was just the author forcing her to be more evil to make the story more interesting. I realize I'm jumping to a conclusion here, but after watching this show for how many years, I can easily see this scenario play out in my head.

We don't know what the author forced the villains to do, but we know everything after he got locked up (so, way before Regina killed her father to enact the Dark Curse) wasn't forced because he had lost his power, so that much they can't retcon. Or they just haven't, yet.

[YaddaYadda]

They don't necessarily have the wrong one. It all depends on what they want or need. They have an Author who knows how to use the quill pen of fate to alter stories. That author is the only one willing to change them. So they have the right one for their goals. They just don't have the current one.

 

So I'm not going to call the Peddler the Author even though he is the Author since there is another Author.  The Peddler is basically a hack, he is someone who is willing to do what it takes to make the book interesting, this is what we got.  Rumple, the villain, who wants his happy ending written would probably prefer having the Peddler write it for him because the Peddler is all about interesting story telling (I can't believe I'm typing this right now), so Peddler who is basically corrupt would do Rumple's bidding.  Maybe he screws him over to up the ante, we don't really know.

 

We basically have a villain writer and a hero writer.  The hero writer is the one who sticks to the job description, records the stories as they are happening.  The Peddler?  The Apprentice told him he failed at his sacred/Holy mission.  He used the word Holy.

 

Dollars for donuts we end up with two Authors by the end of the season, or we're still searching for the actual author who continued writing Henry's book after the Peddler was banished inside its pages because there's a giant mess that has been created and needs fixing.

 

Also, the Peddler had magical powers inside the book.  He was able to signal Henry through the book where the key was.  Rumple saw the magic.  There is no reason he wouldn't have been able to conjure an alternate page 23 for Regina.  You find the Author, you free him, that was his endgame.  Everything else will be gravy after that for this guy.

[kili]

Rumple, the villain, who wants his happy ending written would probably prefer having the Peddler write it for him because the Peddler is all about interesting story telling (I can't believe I'm typing this right now), so Peddler who is basically corrupt would do Rumple's bidding.

 

Peddler Author has a magical quill that allows him to control the actions of other characters... Why do I think that Rumple  had something to do with him getting that quill in the first place? I doubt Author Peddler just found it lying about. It would at least explain how Rumple knew so much about the Author.

 

We basically have a villain writer and a hero writer.  The hero writer is the one who sticks to the job description, records the stories as they are happening.

 

Please, please, please let the hero author be female and let her be Scheherazade. I'm still a little irked that the person telling the story in Aladdin was the Peddler instead of her.

[Selina K]

He (Rumple) had his hand on his chest, so I'm wondering if he has some sort of heart problem or magic corruption or something. His talk about his debt may be about his dark heart getting too dark. IDK.

 

 

I think he may be suffering from  "Bobby Carlyle wants off the crap fest these writers are churning out - itis."

 

Maleficent's nightgown was pretty.

 

Snow is currently as dumb and aggravating as I found David to be in S1. 

 

If a writer needs to tweet the clarification that only the Apprentice's free will was tampered with, you didn't do a good job showing and not telling.

 

If only the Apprentice's free will was tampered with, then wtf with the search for the author? 

 

Snow "My baby must be good and pure.  My baby must be good and pure.  My baby must be good and .. wait, Regina might not get her happy ending!?! Screw my baby!"

 

If Snow and Charming are this dumb, they all might have been better of with the Evil Queen in charge.  Clearly this Snow and Charming would have lost the kingdom to a stray wounded ogre on the side of the road somewhere.

[LucidDreamer]

When I saw the unicorn mobile, all I could think was -- hanging a bunch of glass objects with sharp, pointy edges over an infant's crib... Yeah, that makes sense.

But it fits in with the nonsensical nature of everything else, so at least it's consistent.

The whole concept of the "Author" is flawed. As an author myself, I find the idea of an "author" just recording events (rather than creating anything) very silly.By definition, an author will alter events to create a story. I doubt Walt Disney would want to think of himself as someone who just recorded things that happened via his films and other works, rather than a creative individual. Dumb concept all around. Should be "The Chronicler" instead.

Yeah, it's nitpicky, but it shows how little thought goes into the storylines/concepts on this show.

[Dani-Ellie]

People who write true crime books are still authors. People who write non-fiction and biographies are still authors. They still take events that happened and put them in language that doesn't bore people to tears and make them feel like they're reading a text book. It still takes some kind of writing talent but just because the events were real means it's somehow less deserving of the title of author?

[Mari]

My first thought to this was, "MY Rumple will manipulate you into that corner and trap you there"!  But then I realized that Rumple has been reduced to just glue to hold the queens story together since they got to Storybrooke except for mooning over Belle (ugh).   Now they are trying to make him sympathetic because his evil and selfishness have given him a heart problem??  He is the all-powerful Dark One for pete's sake!  

 

You have succinctly summed up everything I've hated about this show since Season 2.

And if it's "Darkness" that's given him  a heart problem, or health problems?  How does that even make sense?  Because if you're the "Dark One," and your purpose is to, be, well, dark?  Shouldn't adding darkness to that heart just make it stronger? 

 

Holy crap, you guys. I completely get that if you hated this, there's nothing I can say to change your mind, but if the standard for "hero" is "never does anything wrong ever," we'd have no heroes. I mean, look at Emma, for crying out loud. I think we all agree that she's attained hero status but her past is not squeaky clean, either.

 

Snow and Charming did a terrible thing. They learned the hard way that predicting the future isn't certain. (Neither one of their unicorn visions was untrue ... it just didn't happen the way it looked like it would.) But the whole point of their ending scene is that they dedicated the rest of their lives to attempting to make up for it. They thought there was no way to get the baby back; that was the first thing they suggested. In the absence of that, they did what they could to atone for their mistake. The fact that they were so broken up about it is a good thing, as far as I'm concerned. Because good people feel bad when they hurt other people. If they'd just gone on about their lives, all, "Oh well, too bad, so sad," then I would have had some issues.

For me, it's not that Snow and David did something truly wrong.  It's a combination of things--for one, this particular evil deed seems out of character to me.  I could see them taking someone who'd already demonstrated some fairly evil traits to stuff their baby's potential evil into, or even a random cow or something that they could make into steaks.  But an intelligent, innocent eggbaby?  And it just adds more fuel to the theory that Snow (particularly) and David were less interested in a child than they were in a baby hero.  It's one more bit of evidence that Emma isn't important to them, only what she can do for them is.

 

Plus, Snow and David have done a couple of "pure hero" tests.  The writing annoys me, because while flawed characters are more interesting than perfect characters, please don't give your characters perfect hero/heart tests that they pass and then tell me "Whoops!  Secret evil thing!  See?  Not perfect heroes!  Fooled you!"  Stick to your own rules, show.

 

Finally, it's also the way the show frames evil done to a villain is worse than the evil deeds done by actual, consistently evil, characters.  What happened to Maleficent was wrong.  Full stop.  However, it's a bit rich to have Maleficent horrified and shocked that someone would kidnap her eggbaby, when she's killed multiple people's children herself.  If it were done more subtly, it would be giving Maleficent layers.  I just don't think it was done well enough to seem anything but "Feel bad for Maleficent!  Look how evil the Charmings are!" and the blatant manipulation bugs me, because it assumes I'm stupid.

 

I was a little peeved about Charming want to burn the page since he knows somebody is living in the page. Babynapping isn't enough? He wants to start cold-blooded murdering people?

 

And then I'm peeved at Snow who doesn't give that as a reason for not burning the page. She doesn't want to burn the page so that Regina can get her happy ending? The author is trapped in the book and not preventing anybody from getting a happy ending. You've just proven Regina being sad today is not his fault. The only thing preventing Regina from her happy ending is Regina. Why in the same episode where Snowing figures out how to get their happy ending do they not figure out that is how Regina gets hers too?

 While that wasn't a stand-out moral moment for David, I do have to give him credit for arguing with Snow about it, and for trying to protect Emma.  Those are both things it would be nice to see more of.

 

As for the Regina thing?  Well, don't we all adore Regina?  Doesn't she deserve all the shinies?

[YaddaYadda]

When I saw the unicorn mobile, all I could think was -- hanging a bunch of glass objects with sharp, pointy edges over an infant's crib... Yeah, that makes sense.

 

I thought it was sort of cool that the mobile was a gift from Cinderella.

[YaddaYadda]

Regina seems to think that Robin is her happy ending. If that's the case, then why was she so mad at Snow? Wasn't Daniel her true love? She wanted him brought back from the dead like a zombie.

 

But isn't that the crux of the Regina problem?  I don't think she knows what her happy ending is (frankly, I'm not sure I can blame her at this point because I find it confusing as hell).  Regina's happy ending was casting the curse to take away everyone's happy ending.  Robin is just the latest in her list of happy endings.  

 

She said that being with Henry, Roland and Robin (for like a week) was the  closest she came to being happy which means that she wasn't entirely happy.  So I'll go sit in my corner and say that Regina's happy ending is not Robin.  He might be part of it, but he's not all of it.

 

What questions did Emma think the author could answer?

I think she's too distraught to think straight.  Emma is a pragmatic.  The answers she needs, it's not the Peddler who can give them to her, it's the Apprentice, you know, the guy who is still trapped in the hat?  Did Snow and David tell Emma everything?  Everyone is so focused on this Author nonsense that they're not looking at the greater picture.  Snow and David went to the Apprentice for help, not to the Author.

 

Incidentally, why did Rumple choose to trap the Apprentice?  I mean he had the hat.  Is it because he was worried the man would stop him?  Is it because Rumple is a spiteful jerk?  Is it because the Apprentice has very powerful magic or is it all of the above?

 

Also, am I the only one who is waiting for a Cruella commentary on Hook and not getting it?  I find it odd that she made comments on Rumple's height, David's brains and chiseled jaw, August's scruff, and nothing on sleeping Hook?  It's weird that the writers are passing up on that, because they never pass up on stuff like that with Hook.

[Curio]

So basically, these "authors" are more like prophets who are tasked with recording important events. But even the prophets who recorded The Bible were biased because of the time periods they lived in and the inaccuracy of verbal stories being passed down from generation to generation. Are we to believe that every single author before this peddler was 100% accurate and unbiased? Are they writing these books at the exact same time the real events are occurring, or do they write the stories down after the events have already happened and attempt to be as accurate as possible? Are we going to find out that there was another author who was battling with the peddler in an attempt to write the accurate story, which is where the mysterious page 23 appeared from? Are the main characters going to go on a wild chase to find a Q-Source that connects all the different authors' stories together? Have Once's writers even thought this far?

[Dani-Ellie]

But an intelligent, innocent eggbaby?  And it just adds more fuel to the theory that Snow (particularly) and David were less interested in a child than they were in a baby hero.  It's one more bit of evidence that Emma isn't important to them, only what she can do for them is.

 

They thought there was a dragon in that egg. They thought they were going to darken Spyro's heart, not a person's. Snow perked up when she heard that Dragon Maleficent had laid a dragon egg. Snow freaked when the egg started to hatch and tiny human hands popped out of it. And they thought they were going to be able to return the egg to Maleficent. it's totally still wrong but it's not like they intended to harm a human baby to save theirs and it's not like they intended to separate a child from her mother.

 

 

 

Plus, Snow and David have done a couple of "pure hero" tests.  The writing annoys me, because while flawed characters are more interesting than perfect characters, please don't give your characters perfect hero/heart tests that they pass and then tell me "Whoops!  Secret evil thing!  See?  Not perfect heroes!  Fooled you!"  Stick to your own rules, show.

 

Is darkness forever or can it fade with time and good works and atonement? Because if one bad action brands you impure and darkens your heart for the rest of your life, why bother with redemption? If Snow and Charming stayed on the hero path following this as a way to atone for their sins, can they shrink the dark spot on their hearts?

Edited March 30, 2015 by Dani-Ellie

[kili]

Most people who write non-fiction or corporate/non-profit communications, etc., call themselves writers instead of authors.

 

Sadly, I must read a lot of technical documents with no plot and every one of them is written by an Author. It says so on the title page. Oxford defines it as "A writer of a book, article, or document".  "Into Thin Air" lists Jon Krakaeur as an Author and up to that point, he'd only written non-fiction.

 

While we can quibble about the language, I don't think that they are using the term "Author" all that unusually. Especially, for Peddler Author who appears to be making up the plots as he goes along. Technically, some in the industry of writing/authoring/whatever may make the distinction, but common people do not. Even many in the book industry do not.

Edited March 30, 2015 by kili

[YaddaYadda]

They thought there was a dragon in that egg. They thought they were going to darken Spyro's heart, not a person's. Snow perked up when she heard that Dragon Maleficent had laid a dragon egg. Snow freaked when the egg started to hatch and tiny human hands popped out of it. And they thought they were going to be able to return the egg to Maleficent. it's totally still wrong but it's not like they intended to harm a human baby to save theirs and it's not like they intended to separate a child from her mother.

 

The point is entirely valid.  The Peddler manipulated the truth.  The dragon laid an egg, so what's inside it should also be a dragon.  The thing that bugs me is that what the Apprentice said went in one ear and out the other.  He talked about free will, choices and guidance.  If you're going to transfer the darkness out of your child into something that belongs to someone who is already a villain, doesn't that mean you're making the situation for everyone worst?  Peddler just told them that Maleficent burned a whole village, marked her territory to lay her egg.  So if you think that her "baby" will be just like her because of who she is, doesn't it mean that "child" will grow up to be really bad and threaten tons of people.

 

Snowing did not know they would be separated from Emma.  All she would have needed was the guidance to make the right choices.  But even after the Apprentice did his magic trick, he told them that the baby will be all light and whatever, but that it doesn't mean it will not choose the wrong path, so in essence, everything they did was for absolutely nothing.

 

Also, Lily is a freakin' drama queen.  When her adoptive father held her, he was so emotional and happy to have her.  I stand by my earlier assessment, she's a brat.

[FormerMod-a1]

I also don't think the Author as "recorder" of events applies to all authors, just the Author(s) they are looking for.  The one(s) that wrote about their lives.  Not all authors ever in a all realms writing about all things.  And even in this scenario, it's not like these authors wrote everything or we'd see lots of sleeping and bathroom scenes or spend hours and hours walking, going to school (or whatever the EF version is) tending farms etc.  These are just the "important" stories, however that is defined. 

[ABitOFluff]

So exactly why does Rumple need to turn Emma dark before the Author can write a happy ending for the villains again?

 

My guess is that Rumple's plan is totally different from what he's told us so far. We'll probably find out later he didn't even need to find the Author to carry out his plan, he just needed an excuse to get back inside the Storybrooke town line.

That was the question bothering me this morning. So we can forget the whole "Will Emma go dark?" thing they've been promoting because Rumple's just being a selfish prick as usual.

[Curio]

Now that we know there are multiple authors writing many different stories, will we find out who is writing Hook's pop-up story? That author seems to have a bit more fun with the aesthetics of his book.

[YaddaYadda]

Now that we know there are multiple authors writing many different stories, will we find out who is writing Hook's pop-up story? That author seems to have a bit more fun with the aesthetics of his book.

I'm not sure they're all that interested in anything regarding Hook

weren't we supposed to find out about his father this half season?  Granted there's 5 episodes left, but still...

[coops]

One of my favourite bits of this episode was when August was explaining the authors job because the show was exploring how these fairy tales came from the enchanted forest into our world for the first time... however i was disappointed when the author was named Walt! Do these writers even know that disney didnt create fairy tales and they go bacj centuries???

Im glad we finally learned how ursula and cruella came to our world too, though it has to be said have proved to be a let down. Ursula is already gone and was really under developed, both her and Cruella have not turned out to be 'queens in their own right' as the writers promised and are merely bumbling henchmen as even Maleficent pointed out to Rumple.

Ha! Henrys full name is Henry Daniel Mills! Lots of nice little touches in this ep like finding out where the mobile came from.

Edited March 30, 2015 by coops

[Delphi]

Okay, well that unicorn was the most worthless unicorn. It essentially told them what they already knew, that Emma could be dark or light. Like Mal said, and like the apprentice said. I can't fathom why they just don't decide to keep their daughter on the right path. Also, don't they have a kingdom to run? How are they constantly chasing down magical artifacts to help them? If Snow put half as much effort into stopping Regina as she has securing Emma's future they'd have stopped the dark curse.

I miss Ruby, I was watching season two yesterday and she brought so much to the show and was really the only character that properly demonstrated the 'we are both' mentality.

Henry might have been the least annoying character last night. Sure he was foolhardy and wanted to release the author, but he's a kid, he's allowed to be that way. Emma shouldn't.

I am going to have to rewatch to get an actual feel of the show, but after last week I thought things were looking up, but it's back to the same old this week.

I figured Lily for the lost child, and figured the peddler was the author. I'm mostly curious as to what's going on with Rumple and that may be the only reason I tune into the next episode.

[Dani-Ellie]

however i was disappointed when the author was named Walt! Do these writers even know that disney didnt create fairy tales and they go bacj centuries???

 

Walt was an Author. As mentioned above, August also namedropped Plato and Shakespeare as Authors. Maybe it's just me but I actually like the idea that the people we consider the great storytellers throughout history are Authors.

[Curio]

August also namedropped Plato and Shakespeare as Authors. Maybe it's just me but I actually like the idea that the people we consider the great storytellers throughout history are Authors.

 

I thought August was just listing off those names for comparison's sake? Or are we actually supposed to believe Shakespeare and Plato were secret Author Prophets recording history?

[YaddaYadda]

Walt was an Author. As mentioned above, August also namedropped Plato and Shakespeare as Authors. Maybe it's just me but I actually like the idea that the people we consider the great storytellers throughout history are Authors.

 

Should have name dropped Homer actually.  That was a missed opportunity if there ever was one.

[DeLurker]

Emma now knows her parents are lying liars who lie, so she's pissed and, in the process, released The Author, which is just what Rumpel wanted.  Great.  Meanwhile, Regina is now exposed, and he seems to have some kind of... plan for her.  Beats me.

Not concerned about Regina - the writers clearly love her.  I mean I like her a lot, but the way everyone cites her as being a foremost concern (Snow, Emma, etc...)?  Does not make sense.

 

I was ridiculously excited to learn Henry's middle name is Daniel. Snow looked gorgeous in the flashback...and I'm out of positive things to say.

I wasn't sure how to interpret that scene.  I couldn't remember if they had disclosed his middle name before and she intentionally said the wrong one to let him know to give the fake picture.

 

Things I contemplated while watching:

Why does Snow insist on saying "we" to Charming when she's the one who saw the dark vision of Emma, and she's the one who suggested taking Maleficent's egg. Charming needs to grow a backbone and tell her no every once in awhile (although apparently the author was manipulating things so no one is responsible for their actions I guess).

<snip>

The writers suck for skipping the emotional meat of Snow/Charming revealing their evil deed to Emma. I was waiting for that all episode, and definitely felt cheated.

In my head Charming responded with "What do you mean "we" White Man?"

 

And way to build to a reveal and not show it.  I speculate they tried to write out the scene but realized trying to put words to the stupid plot was a bigger mistake.

 

ETA: Add me to the list of those dreading the return of Zelena.  Ugh.

Edited March 30, 2015 by DeLurker

[Mari]

Is darkness forever or can it fade with time and good works and atonement? Because if one bad action brands you impure and darkens your heart for the rest of your life, why bother with redemption? If Snow and Charming stayed on the hero path following this as a way to atone for their sins, can they shrink the dark spot on their hearts?

The thing is, there ia no way to completely balance the scales. Is it possible to become better and make some amends? Yes. But I think doing truly evil things causes wounds, even in yourself. Its possible for them to heal, but there's usually going to be some scar tissue. You will never again be who you were before.

[Dani-Ellie]

Which is true, and I don't think the show is saying anything different. Is "pure" 100% clean or is it Ivory soap, 99.44% clean? No one is 100% clean, and that was my original point. Snow and Charming have stumbled along the way but they were still considered heroic and pure of heart enough to go through Glinda's door. I can certainly take that as a testament to how far Snow and Charming have come after their mistakes rather than calling it a retcon.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Dani-Ellie

[pcta]

How old is Emma? 12? You lied to me so I'm going to have a self righteous tantrum.

What is the target demo for this dreck? Yup, done.

[SilverShadow]

Holy crap, you guys. I completely get that if you hated this, there's nothing I can say to change your mind, but if the standard for "hero" is "never does anything wrong ever," we'd have no heroes. I mean, look at Emma, for crying out loud. I think we all agree that she's attained hero status but her past is not squeaky clean, either.

 

Snow and Charming did a terrible thing. They learned the hard way that predicting the future isn't certain. (Neither one of their unicorn visions was untrue ... it just didn't happen the way it looked like it would.) But the whole point of their ending scene is that they dedicated the rest of their lives to attempting to make up for it. They thought there was no way to get the baby back; that was the first thing they suggested. In the absence of that, they did what they could to atone for their mistake. The fact that they were so broken up about it is a good thing, as far as I'm concerned. Because good people feel bad when they hurt other people. If they'd just gone on about their lives, all, "Oh well, too bad, so sad," then I would have had some issues.

 

 

 

For me, there's a lot of room between "never does anything wrong ever," and "deliberately fucks up the karma of another baby so their baby could maaaaybe be good." There's two big issues I have overall. The first is that they basically decided to pretend this horrible fucked up thing they did never happened. Which makes a lot of their actions in past episodes look retroactively creepy and messed up. It says a lot that the writers felt they had to spell it out in the text, because even with those lines, this episode feels incredibly disjointed from what's been previously shown about Snow and Charming. I have no sense that this was something that was planned all along, or "missing information" that can be slotted with what we already know. There are several points in prior episodes where it should have come up. A lot of people have mentioned Glinda's door. I would also add killing Cora, and the "harder paths" conversation in 2.22. I'm sure there are a lot more. It feels like the writers pulled it out of their asses-because they did.

 

My other big eyebrow raise is that the dumb spell never actually guaranteed them anything. It wasn't "Emma will definitely be bad if you don't do the spell and will definitely be good if you do." It was "Emma could go either way" both before and after. They didn't ask the questions they should have asked. And the fact that they didn't consider the dragon baby as sentient when Snow talks to birds and her best friend turns into a wolf also makes no sense. The whole thing reeks of tarnishing the heroes so the villains will look less awful by comparison because Adam and Eddy think the idea is a cool twist rather than something organically coming from the characters.

 

And again, I don't have a problem with flawed heroes in theory. I totally bought young Snow as having been a little brat before her mother got sick, for example. But here, the execution, given all the episodes that have come before, makes no sense.

Edited March 30, 2015 by SilverShadow

[kili]

So, let me get this straight....Charming and Snow are willing to burn the Author alive in his page and accept August almost getting killed in order to keep their "We eggnapped Mal's baby and turned her evil and made her fall in a portal with Ursuella and Cruella to who knows where" secret and this isn't their darkest secret? Snow's darkest secret, which she reveals in the Echo caves, is that she wants another baby?

 

And why does Snow never fear that Baby Neal might be the evilest ever? Did she check? Did she trek out to the Tree of Wisdom? Did she consult any peddlers or strangers living in the woods? Because if one of her kids could be the evilest ever, couldn't he?

[YaddaYadda]

And why does Snow never fear that Baby Neal might be the evilest ever? Did she check? Did she trek out to the Tree of Wisdom? Did she consult any peddlers or strangers living in the woods? Because if one of her kids could be the evilest ever, couldn't he?

 

Glinda the Useless told Snow she held two pure hearts.  She must be right since, Glinda is a purveyor of light magic.  Meanwhile, Maleficent is terrible and evil, so she's right that Emma can turn evil.  This show has some fucked up logic.  What happened yesterday makes me hate even more that they decided to pull Emma out of her life in NYC to save Do Over.  

 

Emma, grab Hook and run back o New York.  Don't pass go, just leave!  What I would give to see her do just that at the end of the season.  Killian, let's leave Storybrooke behind and try and build a life.  We'll come and visit Henry and he'll come visit us.  Fuck everyone else.  Aloha, bitches!

[nksarmi]

The last two episodes are the first time I haven't watched the show live. That shows how much I care about the current storylines.

 

So Snow knew what teenage Emma looked like all along?

 

This whole Emma could go dark reminds too much of Wyatt's storyline on Charmed.

I'm not watching, because I refuse to watch them ruin Snow and David....but I think Wyatt's storyline on Charmed made more sense than what I've read of this stuff.  The writing of Charmed got worse each season (I didn't even watch season eight), but at least with Wyatt, he was the most magical creature ever and his mother (whom he adored) was the tipping point for him to go from good to evil (as I recall).  And he had a brother who risked everything to save him.  That overall plot is way better than this story from what I can tell.  I'm so hoping the finale is good enough I can come back for season five lol.

[RedInk]

Oh, I loathe Snow. Is that an UO? It has nothing to do with anything she's done, really, and I certainly don't think anyone needs to be perfect to be a hero. But does every line out of her mouth have to be so sanctimonious and preachy? It dehumanizes her for me - her happy mode is sugar sweet; unhappy is self-righteous. I was actually forwarding through her scenes so I didn't have to watch them. 

Also...I think I kind of hate them both for the egg business. Because all of us do have children with the potential to be basically good or bad people - that's the whole concept of free will - and we just do our best to raise decent people. The desperation to ensure that their child is made of pure goodness seemed bizarre. Like I said, though, I rushed their scenes and maybe missed something ;) 

 

And do we know who Lily is on the show? Is it Tiger Lily?  

 

[RadioGirl27]

Ugh, this was so bad. I don't know if A&E haven't thought enough about it or they have thought too much about it, but the Author storyline is convoluted and absurd, and terribly written. So we have free will but we also have a crazy guy taking away free will, all happening at the same time to the same people.
 
Snow and Charming acted as idiots all the episode, both in the flashback (let's do what this weird guy we have just met told us to do) and in present day (we can't destroy the page or Regina wouldn't have her happy ending, screw Emma). And Charming, he is a total moron.
 
Rumple is creepy as hell. The scene with Belle made me feel so uncomfortable. I don't know what the writters wanted to achieve with that scene, but it didn't do Rumbelle any favors.
 
The only thing I liked was Hook being Emma's rock.

For me, it's not that Snow and David did something truly wrong.  It's a combination of things--for one, this particular evil deed seems out of character to me.  I could see them taking someone who'd already demonstrated some fairly evil traits to stuff their baby's potential evil into, or even a random cow or something that they could make into steaks.  But an intelligent, innocent eggbaby?  And it just adds more fuel to the theory that Snow (particularly) and David were less interested in a child than they were in a baby hero.  It's one more bit of evidence that Emma isn't important to them, only what she can do for them is.

This. It was so OOC for them to act like this.
 

What questions did Emma think the author could answer? Why are my parents idiots? Why does Hook never take off his jacket? Come to think of it, nobody else does either - is there a heating problem in Storybrooke? Can someone buy Henry something new to read? How do Regina and Emma know which Mom Henry is referring to when he calls out? How does Belle find the time to date, run a library, run a pawn shop, and converse with Oxford professors doing research? I mean seriously. What can that man answer? He's been in a book for 29/30 years.

I know Emma was distressed, but she was so stupid. There was nothing in what August said that made releasing the Author a good idea.

It's hilarious that the Author altering the story is seen as a crime, when that's been treated like a worthwhile goal all season long.

This has been happening all season. Both Regina and the villains had the same goal, but it was presented as something good in Regina's case and something bad in the other's case.

[FabulousTater]

Snow and Charming have stumbled along the way but they were still considered heroic and pure of heart enough to go through Glinda's door. I can certainly take that as a testament to how far Snow and Charming have come after their mistakes rather than calling it a retcon

 

My problem with this is when exactly did Snowing have the time to “balance the scales” and to have done anything to make up (karmic justice wise) for what they did here? They haven't had the time. It's actually been only 2 years max if you remove the stuck in a groundhog day curse time since this went down.

 

Here's the timeline as I understand it -

Somewhere during Snow’s first pregnancy (about 29/30 years ago), Snowing do this really terrible thing to Maleficent and her baby. There’s no dressing that one up. They took someone’s child even if they thought the child was a sentient puppy or something (either way they knew it was Maleficents child, and Mal begged them not to take it away from her. Snowing is rationalizing if they didn't think part of the egg!baby wasn't at least human and could change to human form especially considering that's exactly what Mal can do). They then turned the child into Cujo and furthermore banished the child alone to another realm. They didn't care that the egg!baby was a blank slate and had equal chance of being bad or good. They did not give two fucks about it. They just took someone’s kid who they automatically assumed would be a monster despite the blank slate, free will, and whatnot, and turned it into Cujo because of self-righteous arrogance. Snowing don’t try to fix their fuck-up. They don’t even look for a solution and instead they assuage their guilt by saying we’ll just be really good people from here on out. But wait, how long is “here on out” really been?

Well, let’s say Snow was 1 month pregnant in that flashback, the next 8 months they spent quivering in their boots worrying about Regina and trying to find a way to save themselves. They fail and instead Snow goes into a 28 year Groundhog Day cycle thanks to Regina casting the Dark Curse and Charming is in a coma for 28 years. Ya, not a lot of “balancing the scales” going on here. So they had 8 months at most where they were supposedly on the "righteous" path of enlightenment and sunshine and rainbows.

Next, when they wake-up, what’s the best thing they do? Umm….They save Regina from the mob that rightly wanted to string her up for cursing them. Ya, I’m calling that arguable as whether Snowing was heroic or not in that instance because we saw Regina later tried to kill everyone. Some time passes (a few months max) and the next thing Snow does is kill Cora (justifiably and in self-defense IMO, but according to the show and Snow that creates a dark spot on her heart. Unlike, you know, purposely turning someone’s egg!baby into Cujo and then banishing them into another realm). And then they go to Neverland for 2 weeks and then back to The Enchanted Forest (for the Lost Year) where suddenly, out of freaking nowhere they pass through Glinda’s Door of Pure Hearts!

So in roughly 1- 2 years (max), Snowing have balanced the scales, or paid enough in karmic justice for babynapping and turning an innocent being into Cujo because of their own arrogance to now pass through Glinda’s Door of Pure Hearts? Really, Show? Really? Bullshit. (And oh, and not only is Snowing pure of heart when they go through the door, but also, despite everyone apparently being a blank slate at birth and having free will and 50/50 chance of going good or bad, in utero Snowflake is pure of heart? WTF.)

That’s why I hate this Snowing secret and this stupid ass plot that the writers pulled out of their butts that Snowing kidnap an egg!Baby, turned it into Cujo, and sent it away, and yet they are still pure of heart. Because it’s contrived and written for one reason and one reason alone: to make the heroes into villains. The writers have talked about that extensively in interviews — how they want to change who peple see as the heroes and who are really the villains — and this is the result. It’s retcon and the complete obliteration of continuity (and character) for the sole purpose of twisting the characters into moronic pretzels that couldn’t think their way out of a paper bag just to make the villains more sympathetic. Bad, writers. BAD.

 

ETA:

"We eggnapped Mal's baby and turned her evil and made her fall in a portal with Ursuella and Cruella to who knows where" secret and this isn't their darkest secret? Snow's darkest secret, which she reveals in the Echo caves, is that she wants another baby?

OMG. I had forgotten about this, but yes. Seriously, Snow's darkest secret was wanting another baby and not this BS? FFS. That just makes this deep dark secret plot even worse. Like, the more you think about this plot in context with the rest of what has happened in past seasons, the worse it gets.

Edited March 30, 2015 by FabulousTater

[Mathius]

And do we know who Lily is on the show? Is it Tiger Lily?

She's Maleficent's daughter. Lily is short for Lilith, a famous demon name.

[RedInk]

She's Maleficent's daughter. Lily is short for Lilith, a famous demon name.

Oh, gotcha, but I meant is she also another character on the show that we may have met?

[Souris]

Lily is Emma's childhood friend we saw in flashbacks in the abysmal 4x05.

[Dani-Ellie]

My problem with this is when exactly did Snowing have the time to “balance the scales” and to have done anything to make up (karmic justice wise) for what they did here. They haven't had the time. It's actually been only 2 years max, if you remove the stuck in a curse time, since this went down.

 

If we're getting into karmic justice, shouldn't their lives as a whole matter? Exactly how far down did this drag them? Does their inherent goodness in all other aspects cushion the fall a bit? If the hole is 20 feet deep and this is a 10 foot drop and they started at the top, they have 10 feet to make up for. Compare that to, say, Regina, who may have already started 10 feet down the hole when this happened. If she'd been the one who did this and dropped 10 feet, she would have 20 feet to get back to the top.

 

It's perhaps a simplistic way of looking at it, but I do think there is a difference between Snow and Charming and the rest of the villains. Intent matters. I still maintain that the fact they thought there was a baby dragon in that egg matters. I don't care if Snow can talk to birds. Has there ever been a good dragon? Have we ever seen a good dragon? Every time we've seen them on this show, they've been terrorizing villages. No, it's not at all right to attempt to tip the scales of any living creature, but their thinking was that the dragon was going to be evil anyway and what's a little more darkness? They did not intend to hurt a human baby and they did not intend to separate Maleficent and the baby.

 

It was absolutely a selfish thing to do but as the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Dani-Ellie