Lightning Rods: Gender, Race, Homosexuality and Other Sensitive Topics

[Proteus]

On December 18, 2017 at 0:39 PM, johntfs said:

Implications are enough for me.  Barry and Iris are adults.  They love each other.  They're having sex.  I don't need to see it to believe it just like I don't need to see them eat, sleep or take dumps in the toilet.

 

This is one of the funniest things I've read in a long time.

[tofutan]

Quote

Even now, fans are claiming that Barry shouldn't be with Iris and Iris doesn't deserve Barry because she is too "self-fish and self-center". That Caitlin/ Felicity/Patty/Kara are more deserving of Barry. That they can't ship Barry in an "abusive"relationship with Iris,  cause Iris is abusive towards him. So even with the writers writing Iris as near to perfection as possible,  there are a lot of people in the fandom who still see Iris as the worst human being on the show.

Fans who ship something else for whatever reason will come up with the dumbest reasons for why the other party is evil and not deserving. (And the tumblr audience is the worst in that regard)

That's why part of me kind of always admired Gough and Millar for sticking with Lana against all resistances. And there was a lot of fair criticism there too, not just the petty shipper hate you get everywhere when people disagree with the chosen ship. 

I do think that there might be subconcious racist elements to why some people refuse to accept Iris as Barry's OTP or Lana as Clark's OTP and so feverishly support other pairings. However I think the Laurel and Felicity situation shows that that this element of fans rejecting the woman the writers have chosen for the male lead can happen to white love interests too. I think some people just have a kneejerk reaction against shipping what is presented to them as truth. 

I do wonder if how both Iris and James (and Gwen from Merlin) were written in an often extremely passive and sweet way was in compensation because so many people perceive black people's action as aggressive and threatening even if they objectively aren't doing anything different than what you saw a white character do previously without getting the same reaction. Then again, while I've seen some people call Iris a shrew or a bossy wife (for example in regards to the whole therapy situation) or call her selfish, I do feel like I've read some of the same accusations thrown at Felicity too, so the tone there is very similar, even if you can argue that maybe Felicity has done more to make this accusation seem feasible, while it being a lot more off base in the case of Iris.

Quote

The initial trailers for the show did show Caitlin more than Iris and I went into the show thinking they'd went and set up another situation where the audience was going to root for the wrong girl but then in watching the actual show, it came off very differently. 

I distinctly remember reading somewhere that the shows have no control over how the show is being marketed and that that is made up purely by the CW marketing department. Since it is a frequent question of the fans of various CW shows why their show doesn't get promoted more. 

[Kate45]

1 hour ago, doram said:

Which is all the more reason why the way Barry was written in 2A makes no sense

How much from 2A makes any sense at all? Seriously. I think that is among the worst/inconsistent writing this show has ever done.

In 2A, we got an intro to Jay, intro to Zoom (kinda), intro to the Multiverse,  learning more about Snart, setting up Legends, and the worst crossover yet. 

The fact that the show runner left after 2x09, shows that we can't take much of that seriously. Clearly, Berlanti (or some other higher up) didn't like the direction of the show.

[tofutan]

Considering just how many shows Berlanti created I think it's a stretch to say that he disliked the direction of everyone he left. Ie when Kreisberg left Arrow to spearhead Flash and Supergirl, to me it's pretty clear that for him that was career opportunity, not a sign he didn't like Arrow. I think people like Berlanti or Kevin Williamson, it is pretty normal that they set up a show and then move on to create the next one. (not to mention he was likely working on Love. Simon which strikes me as a typical passion project, as well as having a hand in creating Riverdale, Black Lightning and Titans)

Berlanti is also credited with writing 2x22 and 3x01, so the fallout couldn't have been that bad. Also: most of the time Berlanti wrote, he is usually co-credited with Kreisberg, so that relationship was clearly still working. 

Also: by your logic, since Flash pivoted back to Westallen in 2B, wouldn't that indicate that Berlanti was the one who didn't like Westallen considering that Westallen was back shortly after he left? 

[Kate45]

12 minutes ago, tofutan said:

Considering just how many shows Berlanti created I think it's a stretch to say that he disliked the direction of everyone he left. Ie when Kreisberg left Arrow to spearhead Flash and Supergirl, to me it's pretty clear that for him that was career opportunity, not a sign he didn't like Arrow. I think people like Berlanti or Kevin Williamson, it is pretty normal that they set up a show and then move on to create the next one. (not to mention he was likely working on Love. Simon which strikes me as a typical passion project, as well as having a hand in creating Riverdale, Black Lightning and Titans)

Berlanti is also credited with writing 2x22 and 3x01, so the fallout couldn't have been that bad. Also: most of the time Berlanti wrote, he is usually co-credited with Kreisberg, so that relationship was clearly still working. 

Also: by your logic, since Flash pivoted back to Westallen in 2B, wouldn't that indicate that Berlanti was the one who didn't like Westallen considering that Westallen was back shortly after he left? 

Kreisburg nor Berlanti were the show runners for 2A. Kreisburg spent the majority of the start of the season working on Supergirl and setting up Legends of Tomorrow. It was a woman by the name of Gabrielle Stanton. She was the show runner from 2x01-2x09. 

Berlanti has never been the show runner for The Flash. He has always been an executive producer, but never a show runner. He's too high up for that. The person who owns the production company wouldn't run the individual shows. 

Once Gabrielle Stanton left, the show runners were Kreisburg and the Helbing brothers. Berlanti also stepped up his involvement once Stanton left, very similar to what is happening now. Berlanti helped make the clear pivot toward WestAllen, based on my understanding. 

Also, I think Berlanti writing 3x01 is very telling in regards to his support of WestAllen as the OTP of the show. That episode really provided the ground work for Iris being the number 1 person in Barry's life. It also showed that without being the Flash, Barry did not keep up with Cisco or Caitlin in any fashion. I assumed he would have tried to connect with them, but he didn't. 

Edited December 31, 2017 by Kate45

[tofutan]

Ahhh, makes sense. So it was a "when the cat is away" type situation? Different writer, brings their own OTP. But, once more an indication that 2A is not a fair representation of how "the writers" felt about Westallen in season 1. I don't think that Kreisberg was a big, emotional Westallen shipper, but when he was in charge, Westallen progressed, both in season 1 and when he came back (to me it looks like he was most active in season 3, followed by 1). Which makes me think that he was one of those "he sees Westallen as a fixture, but he doesn't peronsonally project into them" types. 

Edited December 31, 2017 by tofutan

[Kate45]

5 minutes ago, tofutan said:

Ahhh, makes sense. So it was a "when the cat is away" type situation? Different writer, brings their own OTP. But, once more an indication that 2A is not a fair representation of how "the writers" felt about Westallen. I don't think that Kreisberg was a big, emotional Westallen shipper, but when he was in charge, Westallen progressed, both in season 1 and when he came back (to me it looks like he was most active in season 3, followed by 1). Which makes me think that he was one of those "he sees Westallen as a fixture, but he doesn't peronsonally project into them" types. 

Yeah, I think that could be a fair assessment. 

I don't think the shafting was necessarily malicious on Gabrielle's part. She did one interview saying that Barry/Patty would be so cute until it all blew up. I think even she knew it wasn't endgame or that they were even testing it for endgame. Shantal who played Patty had a contract for 10 episodes, and she completed 10 episodes. In fact, we know that Barry/Iris had at least one scene together from 2x03 where she was able to process her feelings about her mom coming back. Grant promoted the scene, but it was cut...and never released. 

However, I absolutely don't think 2A was representative of what the writers think about WA. As soon as Gabrielle left, and the other people came back a big shift happened. It's as if Barry remembered he had a best friend, again!

I agree about Kreisburg. I don't think he was emotionally attached to WestAllen. I think the Helbings are more attached, and I think Aaron was more attached than Todd. However, Aaron left at the end of season 3. But, Todd has said that WestAllen is on a very specific tradjectory and that they have been since season 1. Unlike Kreisburg, Todd tends to be truthful about upcoming storylines.

 

I have no clue if they are excited to write for WestAllen, but I think they have overall done a good job of building a beautiful love story. 

[Kate45]

6 hours ago, doram said:

During 2A, Iris was reduced to such a non-presence that there was an episode where she uttered a single line. One line. Obviously given to her for contractual purposes.  I didn't know about the 2.03 deleted scene but I know there was a post-accident scene (Wally racing episode) in the hospital that was cut. And I've already pointed out that the way Barry/Patty was written was completely at odds with how they ought to have been written if Westallen was still end-game.

I agree that Iris was most definitely the most underserved character during 2A. The episode with the one line? That was the Flash portion of the crossover. Patty had a fairly big part in that crossover. It was a pretty telling situation. The supposed leading lady of the show, has one throw away line in the crossover? That was a shame.

After looking at the screen time numbers, it's clear that Patty only ate into Iris' screen time. 

To be fair, I never heard Gabrielle say anything about WestAllen. I only ever heard her talk about Patty and Barry. Do you remember the character description? Patty was supposed to be "Barry's Felicity". Which to this day makes no sense to me. She never even joined Team Flash. I don't watch Arrow, but isn't Felicity a big part of the Arrow team?

One thing for sure that Gabrielle lied about was that the show was going to build the Iris/Caitlin relationship in 2A. They were supposed to bond over the deaths of Ronnie and Eddie. The never happened. 

Its also telling that during Gabrielle's tenure she introduced two characters that the show seems lost on what to do with them. Those characters were Jesse and Wally. I think they were brought in way too fast, and they have never had a path for what to do with them beyond giving them speed.  But, that is a different conversation. 

Edited December 31, 2017 by Kate45

[DearEvette]

10 hours ago, doram said:

During 2A, Iris was reduced to such a non-presence that there was an episode where she uttered a single line. One line. Obviously given to her for contractual purposes.  I didn't know about the 2.03 deleted scene but I know there was a post-accident scene (Wally racing episode) in the hospital that was cut. And I've already pointed out that the way Barry/Patty was written was completely at odds with how they ought to have been written if Westallen was still end-game.

Man, I was so sure they were gonna pull a Laurel on Iris in 2A.   The writing felt like it was on the wall.  Here comes this new love interest for Barry who in just a few episodes had more agency than Iris had all season 1.  Also she had a mentor/mentee relationship with Joe. And they made her all perky of girl-nerdy.  It really did feel like they were trying to make her a Felicity type character.   I really was nervous for Iris and I remember seeing so many people talking how cute and perfect Barry & Patty were together. 

The one thing that I think Iris had that Laurel didn't have were very vocal and combative fans who were ride or die about their ship.  I think 2A was when i started seeing what felt like a concerted campaign by the WestAllen and specifically Iris West fans to hold the show's feet to the fire wrt to Iris, her screentime, and her character arc etc.  And yes, a LOT of those fans were black women who did not want to see Iris sidelined like they had seen Abbie sidelined on Sleepy Hollow.

The abrupt exit of Patty and the re-localized focus on WestAllen in 2B made me wonder what happened?  It just felt like such a shift. Since I found out later that the actress had only been signed for those episodes, I wondered if the intent for Patty was just to be a temporary WestAllen impediment for awhile but writer bias beefed her up more than it should have with an intent to actually create a more viable partner for Barry.  But then something behind the scenes changed.  Whatever the shift was I am glad. 

Edited December 31, 2017 by DearEvette

[SevenStars]

13 hours ago, Kate45 said:

 

I don't think the shafting was necessarily malicious on Gabrielle's part. She did one interview saying that Barry/Patty would be so cute until it all blew up. I think even she knew it wasn't endgame or that they were even testing it for endgame. Shantal who played Patty had a contract for 10 episodes, and she completed 10 episodes. In fact, we know that Barry/Iris had at least one scene together from 2x03 where she was able to process her feelings about her mom coming back. Grant promoted the scene, but it was cut...and never released. 

 

I have to disagree here. I think it was malicious on Gabrielle's part because of how she tried to basically ereased Iris importance to Barry in terms of romantic and friendship sense, and kept Iris out of the main narrative after Iris spent almost a whole season before outside of the main narrative. There were so many ways she could have kept Iris part of narrative and as Barry's friend but instead, she decided to make Iris ghost. I think base on her writing, ignoring her interviews, if she had  stayed, Patty/Barry would have been the main couple until the last season of the show when she would have slapped Barry/Iris together cause she had to, not because she wanted to. And if she had the last say, Barry/Iris would have never happen. I mean I didn't even know all this backstage info when I was watch s2, and base on the writing I felt like the writer wasn't only indifferent towards Iris but disliked her on a certain level. I felt like the only reason she didn't kill off Iris was because she wasn't "allowed" to. 

[paulvdb]

In my opinion there are three elements that made Patty less successful as a character and replacement love interest than Felicity.

First, there is the originally intended love interest. In my opinion Laurel was not very well written and I don't think Katie Cassidy was the right actress for the part. Or maybe she wasn't directed very well. The writing for Iris also wasn't always great, but Candice Patton as an actress managed to make the character likeable even when the writing wasn't good.

Second, there is the show itself. Arrow had a darker and more serious tone. That's not a problem for me, but I do like the occasional lighter and/or more humorous moments on such shows. Felicity brought that missing element to Arrow. The Flash was already a lighter and more humorous show so it didn't need a Felicity-like character to bring a missing element to the show.

Third, there are the characters themselves. The reason why a character works on a show is a combination of writing, acting and chemistry with the other castmembers. Some of those elements, especially the chemistry part, are difficult to recreate and when it happens it is often not intentional. Felicity was originally only intended for one episode, but she worked so well that she was brought back for more episodes and ended up becoming a regular. Based on what I read here it seems that the showrunner on the Flash wanted to introduce a character that would become as popular as Felicity, but that usually doesn't happen when you plan it. In my opinion Patty didn't have it and I didn't miss her when she left.

In addition to these elements there is also something else that I've seen mentioned here before. Grant Gustin doesn't seem to have a strong romantic/sexual chemistry with any of Barry's love interests. In my opinion not even with Iris, but she was introduced as his intended love interest. And for me that does give her an advantage because any replacement love interest would have to have better chemistry with Barry than the originally intended love interest. That wasn't the case for Patty and also not for Linda even though I did like her as a character. But that was more as a friend for Iris than as a love interest for Barry.

So I ship Barry with Iris more because I like Iris than because of any great chemistry between them. In my opinion the strongest relationships on the Flash are not the romantic relationships but the family and friendship relationships, especially Barry and Joe.

[Trini]

3 hours ago, DearEvette said:

...

The one thing that I think Iris had that Laurel didn't have were very vocal and combative fans who were ride or die about their ship.  I think 2A was when i started seeing what felt like a concerted campaign by the WestAllen and specifically Iris West fans to hold the show's feet to the fire wrt to Iris, her screentime, and her character arc etc.  And yes, a LOT of those fans were black women who did not want to see Iris sidelined like they had seen Abbie sidelined on Sleepy Hollow.

...

I do think this was part of the reason, but they were always going to have to get back to WestAllen at some point. I don't think they were planning to drop Iris, but even if they were, they'd have to somehow resolve the situation with Iris as the original True Love.

However, Patty (for the reasons mentioned above) never caught fire, and Iris remained the OTP.

[DearEvette]

1 hour ago, paulvdb said:

First, there is the originally intended love interest. In my opinion Laurel was not very well written and I don't think Katie Cassidy was the right actress for the part. Or maybe she wasn't directed very well. The writing for Iris also wasn't always great, but Candice Patton as an actress managed to make the character likeable even when the writing wasn't good.

In addition to these elements there is also something else that I've seen mentioned here before. Grant Gustin doesn't seem to have a strong romantic/sexual chemistry with any of Barry's love interests. In my opinion not even with Iris, but she was introduced as his intended love interest. And for me that does give her an advantage because any replacement love interest would have to have better chemistry with Barry than the originally intended love interest. That wasn't the case for Patty and also not for Linda even though I did like her as a character. But that was more as a friend for Iris than as a love interest for Barry.

So I ship Barry with Iris more because I like Iris than because of any great chemistry between them. In my opinion the strongest relationships on the Flash are not the romantic relationships but the family and friendship relationships, especially Barry and Joe.

I like this entire post, but want to comment specifically on the bolded parts...

1. Yes indeed.  I felt bad for Katie Cassidy and Laurel because I thought she was written so poorly and you're right, she just didn't have the ability to rise above the bad material and make people warm to her.   I think nostalgia and backlash against Olicity makes people more fond of her now than they were then.  But Candace was more anemically written than Laurel, and yet she had a warmth and charisma that prevented the level of vitriol against her that Katie got. 

 

and 2.  I ship Barry and Iris because I am an Iris fan and want all the good things for her.  And that is her rightful place as Iris West Allen.  But real talk, I thought she had a crack ton more with Eddie than she does with Barry.  I will say, though, there are moments when Barry and Iris do give off nice tingles of sexiness that does allow their chemistry to come to the fore.  E-2 Iris ad Barry were hella sexy.  It was like they were different people.  And then there was a scene of them at a party at the West house right after she and Barry got together officially.  Iris was wearing this killer red velvet dress and she was sitting on Barry's lap.  An while they were talking he was lazily stroking her leg and thigh.  It was such a natural, couple-y sexy thing that it was one of the few times I remembered thinking they might just grow into their chemistry. I've never given it much thought, but now I wonder if the show not showing more sexy-times with Iris and Barry has actually hurt them chemistry wise?

[ruby24]

22 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

and 2.  I ship Barry and Iris because I am an Iris fan and want all the good things for her.  And that is her rightful place as Iris West Allen.  But real talk, I thought she had a crack ton more with Eddie than she does with Barry.  I will say, though, there are moments when Barry and Iris do give off nice tingles of sexiness that does allow their chemistry to come to the fore.  E-2 Iris ad Barry were hella sexy.  It was like they were different people.  And then there was a scene of them at a party at the West house right after she and Barry got together officially.  Iris was wearing this killer red velvet dress and she was sitting on Barry's lap.  An while they were talking he was lazily stroking her leg and thigh.  It was such a natural, couple-y sexy thing that it was one of the few times I remembered thinking they might just grow into their chemistry. I've never given it much thought, but now I wonder if the show not showing more sexy-times with Iris and Barry has actually hurt them chemistry wise?

Yeah, I mean they could definitely have given them a chance to grow into it. Having more practice at it would have only helped.

[SevenStars]

1 minute ago, doram said:

Good speculation and possibly true.  I remember thinking how sexy the first Iris-and-the-Flash-on-the-rooftop scene was. Just playing off each other, the electricity was so intense, I felt intrusive watching them even though their interaction was objectively innocent, and I remember thinking "oh I can't wait to see these two as a real couple" and when it eveeeeentually happened, it was just so-so. Generally 1A had - imo - peak Westallen chemistry, and it's a very good chance that the show might have "killed off" that chemistry with the way they chose to write them.

I agree and the Iris/Savitar scenes reminded me of how intense their chemistry could be if the writers allowed them to go beyond the "sweet and innocent".

[Trini]

17 hours ago, DearEvette said:

... But Candace was more anemically written than Laurel, and yet she had a warmth and charisma that prevented the level of vitriol against her that Katie got. 

 

aside/ There are actually good actors here, and half the time they come up with some good concepts to explore, but the writing/execution is often a let-down. Sometimes I think the show could be so much better with better writing and a vision.

Edited January 1, 2018 by Trini

[Primal Slayer]

I think Iris got lucky in the fact that Laurel was basically what the template they used as to what not to do with the character. Don't make her to combative against the lead, don't have her become a drunk over her lover dying, don't try to take down The Flash afterwards. While Laurel got more storylines then Iris did, they were more complicated storylines that just made the audience turn against her even more. Iris got to escape all of that.

I also think Patty failed from the start because fans saw her as The Flash trying to bring in their own version of Felicity and were just instantly against her. The character never stood a chance.

As far as Iris/Barry being sexy, a big part probably plays in the fact that The Flash is a big family show. None of the characters are really sexualized and I dont think that they really look at Grant or Barry the same way they look at Amell/Oliver who is suppose to make the girls swoon.  

[Kate45]

1 hour ago, SevenStars said:

I agree and the Iris/Savitar scenes reminded me of how intense their chemistry could be if the writers allowed them to go beyond the "sweet and innocent".

Yes, to all of this. Personally, I think Grant and Candice have amazing chemistry. I was actually worried that they would struggle to transfer their chemistry from a friendship type to the romantic type. However, I think I think it works really well as a couple as well. But, I do love their intense chemistry in the Flash/Iris and Savitar/Iris situations as well. Grant and Candice play really well off of each other. 

Personally, I have only found Grant to have romantic chemistry with Iris, Felicity (only at first, not so much in recent seasons), and Patty. I have never noticed any romantic chemistry with Linda or Caitlin, although I like both characters independently. 

17 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

I think Iris got lucky in the fact that Laurel was basically what the template they used as to what not to do with the character. Don't make her to combative against the lead, don't have her become a drunk over her lover dying, don't try to take down The Flash afterwards. While Laurel got more storylines then Iris did, they were more complicated storylines that just made the audience turn against her even more. Iris got to escape all of that.

I also think Patty failed from the start because fans saw her as The Flash trying to bring in their own version of Felicity and were just instantly against her. The character never stood a chance.

As far as Iris/Barry being sexy, a big part probably plays in the fact that The Flash is a big family show. None of the characters are really sexualized and I dont think that they really look at Grant or Barry the same way they look at Amell/Oliver who is suppose to make the girls swoon.  

Yes, to this Laurel part. Another thing that I think they learned from the Laurel situation is about giving in to online news fans' demands. I don't watch Arrow, but by all accounts killing Laurel was a big mistake. They did what online fans demanded, and now much of the fandom hates Felicity in the same way that they hated Laurel. For some fans, complaining is all they do. They will never be happy. 

[johntfs]

I've never really seen Grant in a role other than this one.  Nor have I seen Candice in other roles.  Candice seems like somebody who would have chemistry with argon.  You could likely put her in any romantic pairing with anyone on the show of any age, race or gender and she'd be able to sell it.  Grant as Barry seems like that nice young man who goes to your church, married that nice young woman, Iris and you secretly hope for her sake that he doesn't turn out to be gay.

[Trini]

47 minutes ago, johntfs said:

... Grant as Barry seems like that nice young man who goes to your church, married that nice young woman, Iris and you secretly hope for her sake that he doesn't turn out to be gay.

Man, skinny dudes who can sing just can't catch a break! ?

Edited January 1, 2018 by Trini
Top of page? danggit!

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

Man, skinny dudes who can sing just can't catch a break! ?

It's not so much that as whenever they go to Barry and Iris' home, I keep expecting them to show twin beds out a 1950s sitcom.  They're newlyweds still in their twenties.  Figure after a week every flat service in their place (and job) should normally need to get drenched in bleach and nonoxynol-9 to clean up all the... "residue."

[Featherhat]

4 hours ago, Kate45 said:

Yes, to this Laurel part. Another thing that I think they learned from the Laurel situation is about giving in to online news fans' demands. I don't watch Arrow, but by all accounts killing Laurel was a big mistake. They did what online fans demanded, and now much of the fandom hates Felicity in the same way that they hated Laurel. For some fans, complaining is all they do. They will never be happy. 

By the time she died I don't think there was much online "kill Laurel" from the fandom, Olicity were already together and then broken up without Laurel having to be dead (and Oliver showed zero interest), so I don't think that was the reason. If you believe backstage reports (obviously take with humongous portions of salt) the producers had wanted to get rid of her for a while, possibly since the pilot and they got permission in S4. They teased the grave at the end of the S4 premiere episode so obviously Laurel was on the speculation list but I don't think many people believed they would kill her off. I personally don't think KC ever really worked in the role either as Rachel Dawes knock off or as BC so I don't personally think killing her off was a mistake. KC is better at playing Black Siren but IMO, not by that much. I think bringing on another BC was more about DC than the writers wanting another one as it was done quite half heartedly. There are always going to be complaints when a character is killed off and nostalgia plays a big part in comparing "the good old days" to people's issues with the show now. 

Some portions of the fanbase started hating on Felicity the moment she had more to do than be the tech support/comic relief, not necessarily having anything to do with LL although it does tie into that as well. There are also some fans who loath Iris being team leader because she is stepping out of her designated "love interest" role and doing something a bit more. 

I never read the casting info on Patty before I saw the character and I didn't think she was supposed to be a Felicity clone, certainly SVS didn't play her as such and is a very different actress to EBR. I can see it if I squint but otherwise I don't. I doubt there was a real plan to switch parings unless they blew the set up with their chemistry (which they didn't), she was there to "even them up" between WestAllen both having alternative relationships before getting together and to "prove" Barry wasn't a virgin. 

[BkWurm1]

19 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

I think Iris got lucky in the fact that Laurel was basically what the template they used as to what not to do with the character. Don't make her to combative against the lead, don't have her become a drunk over her lover dying, don't try to take down The Flash afterwards. While Laurel got more storylines then Iris did, they were more complicated storylines that just made the audience turn against her even more. Iris got to escape all of that.

I also think Patty failed from the start because fans saw her as The Flash trying to bring in their own version of Felicity and were just instantly against her. The character never stood a chance.

As far as Iris/Barry being sexy, a big part probably plays in the fact that The Flash is a big family show. None of the characters are really sexualized and I dont think that they really look at Grant or Barry the same way they look at Amell/Oliver who is suppose to make the girls swoon.  

I know that I read about people who hated Patty before she ever showed up on screen because there was worry Iris was going to get shafted but even though I actually thought they wrote for Patty better than Iris (because she had a natural reason then to be in the thick of things) I never for a minute saw anything in the writing that said she was anything but a ship stall.   I do think her being written with more agency might have caused some of the concern but now that we now the atmosphere Kreisberg brought when he was around, it seems likely to me Patty got to be more well rounded not because there was ever any intent on making her a replacement, but because he wasn’t around to crap all over how they wrote her.   

Im sure no matter who was the show runner during that time, they were following a rough outline and The Flash had a bad habit of completely ignoring its female characters unless they were needed to advance the plot or prop up one of the guys.  Their individual story or viewpoint didn’t much matter.  Patty’s character on the police force served to advance plots and she was both Joes partner and Barry’s love interest, which meant she was used a lot in her episodes.  Iris was stuck propping Joe and Wally with no tie to the bad guys aka Barry’s main plots.   So she just kind of vanished until Barry was ready for her as a love interest again.  

Since Caitlin got the same kind of crappy writing, (only used to advance the plot by being an info dump or love interest )I blame gender though, not race.  

18 hours ago, Kate45 said:

Yes, to all of this. Personally, I think Grant and Candice have amazing chemistry. I was actually worried that they would struggle to transfer their chemistry from a friendship type to the romantic type. However, I think I think it works really well as a couple as well. But, I do love their intense chemistry in the Flash/Iris and Savitar/Iris situations as well. Grant and Candice play really well off of each other. 

Personally, I have only found Grant to have romantic chemistry with Iris, Felicity (only at first, not so much in recent seasons), and Patty. I have never noticed any romantic chemistry with Linda or Caitlin, although I like both characters independently. 

Yes, to this Laurel part. Another thing that I think they learned from the Laurel situation is about giving in to online news fans' demands. I don't watch Arrow, but by all accounts killing Laurel was a big mistake. They did what online fans demanded, and now much of the fandom hates Felicity in the same way that they hated Laurel. For some fans, complaining is all they do. They will never be happy. 

I honestly think if they’d killed Laurel and then were done with the character there’d be less fuss about her now from anyone.  The Olicity fandom wasn’t calling for her death the season she died so it bugs to be given credit or blame but any remaining active complaints IMO comes from stretching out her existence(in a way) still on the show and mistakenly keeping a certain segment thinking the show is going to be something it never was.  Which constantly leads to their disappointment.  In contrast, I think Iris and WA was exactly what was always planned on the show.   I guess I don’t hang out enough on Tumblr because I’d always heard that even those that didn’t like WA as a couple still liked Iris and that’s certainly not something I heard in regards to Laurel.   

[Primal Slayer]

Even though I wasn't a fan of Patty at the beginning, I would've welcomed her to stay around for a bit longer then she did and it just come to a natural end. I like it when shows give their characters multiple relationships before settling down with their OTP again since it allows to see different aspects of the character which is something none of these shows really like to do. 

6 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I honestly think if they’d killed Laurel and then were done with the character there’d be less fuss about her now from anyone.  The Olicity fandom wasn’t calling for her death the season she died so it bugs to be given credit or blame but any remaining active complaints IMO comes from stretching out her existence(in a way) still on the show and mistakenly keeping a certain segment thinking the show is going to be something it never was.  Which constantly leads to their disappointment.  In contrast, I think Iris and WA was exactly what was always planned on the show.   I guess I don’t hang out enough on Tumblr because I’d always heard that even those that didn’t like WA as a couple still liked Iris and that’s certainly not something I heard in regards to Laurel.   

While I think the Olicity fandom was certainly calling for the end of Laurel, I do agree that they kept that "will they, won't they" aspect open to the Lauriver fans which lead to a lot of backlash/wars from those fans. I wish they would've just been up front with saying those two were done and 100% not happening anymore. Would've allowed wounds to heal a lot faster for some. One thing that also keeps the hope alive for some people is that keeping any Laurel around and keeping her single. It doesn't allow anyone to latch onto something different. Keeping Laurel around and not giving her a new Tommy was such a huge mistake and if they keep Black Siren around, not giving her someone is also not to going to make things better.

The Iris hate really grew last season and this season it seems like it hit an all time high, especially since she took "leadership" of the team and uttered "We are The Flash". The amount of hate I've seen after she said that has been astronomical.  

[Kate45]

1 hour ago, Primal Slayer said:

The Iris hate really grew last season and this season it seems like it hit an all time high, especially since she took "leadership" of the team and uttered "We are The Flash". The amount of hate I've seen after she said that has been astronomical.  

I think it's not as bad as season 1. It's obvious that the Iris hate is pretty strong at this point, mostly because she doing more this season than last season. They hate that she's the leading the team this season, which is a stupid complaint in my book. Who else should it be? Barry is an awful leader. Caitlin and Cisco get flustered whenever something bad happens. Harry spends so much time being negative and bickering with the other members that he would never be a good leader. Since the show refuses to leave starlabs or the team aspect, it only makes sense for Iris to be the leader IMO. 

And OMG, the "We are The Flash" backlash is also stupid. TV shows don't have characters say things like that on more than one occasion if it's not important. The parallels between the Devoes and WA explain why she is saying it. It's also telling that Barry has said essentially the same thing since season 1, but only now are the fanboys and fangirls upset about it. Plus, we went to the future last year and Barry stopped being the Flash because Iris died. 

However, one huge difference is that Iris/Candice has been pretty successful with professional critics this season. There has been a consensus that WestAllen works this season and that Iris has the type of agency that she should have had for all of these seasons. With AJK gone, it can only get better in terms of writing for Iris.

Contrasting this current season and the feedback from professional critics versus season 1 it is a stark difference. In season 1, there were numerous articles calling for SnowBarry to happen and for Candice to be released from the show. 

Because of that difference, and because I think Iris has a bigger fan base now than she did back in season 1, I would say that the hate is not at an all time high. 

[DearEvette]

2 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I do think her being written with more agency might have caused some of the concern but now that we now the atmosphere Kreisberg brought when he was around, it seems likely to me Patty got to be more well rounded not because there was ever any intent on making her a replacement, but because he wasn’t around to crap all over how they wrote her.  

For me personally, it was the more agency + the Iris ghosting that led to the concern.  I didn't have any issues when I first heard they were bringing on Patty.  It actually made sense.  At the end of S1, Eddie was about to propose to Iris and all things signalled that she would have said yes when he died and s1 ended.  Without a significant time jump it would have actually made Iris look worse for having her go from Eddie's barely cold corpse to falling in love with Barry right away.  So yeah, there needed to be a breather there and I like for the OTPs to have at least one or two rom interests before settling with each other, it gives their final pairing the weight of choice rather than just fated mates.  But even so, a good OTP story always lets us know they are still connected to each other, even when they are with the others.

But Iris was off in her own West family storyline, her screentime was greatly reduced, and she had barely any interaction with Barry.  And what scenes they did share they seemed more like the sibling theirs detractors kept claiming they are.  Heck they even teased that she might start her own new romance with her new boss while the supposed reason she wasn't pining for Barry was because she was in mourning for Eddie (thank god that went nowhere!) To me, it just seemed so bizarre.  It felt like the writers were actively trying to erase any romantic feelings, not just stall them or subdue them.  And then bam Patty was gone and hey, Iris and Barry notice each other again.  There as no transition, no hints that they were moving them back toward each other.  The episode right after Patty leaves is when Iris gets injured during Wally's drag race and Barry angsts about his speed because he wasn't fast enough to save her. 

I've always had S3 as my least favorite season but the more I remember about S2... I dunno.  And it isn't just he Barry/Iris stuff.  It was that there were at least, what,  three episode that were jump offs for The Legends (which I now LOVE -- but back then...).  And all he confusing zoom and Jay Garrick stuff.

Edited January 2, 2018 by DearEvette

[tofutan]

Taking some of these topics like Lauriver or chemistry to the relationship topic. 

[Starry]

On 1/1/2018 at 5:35 AM, SevenStars said:

I agree and the Iris/Savitar scenes reminded me of how intense their chemistry could be if the writers allowed them to go beyond the "sweet and innocent".

That’s why I think that the writers did not “kill off” their chemistry, they’re just, for whatever reason, not taking advantage of it in the way they should. Also, a committed/married couple will give off a different vibe than two “strangers” having mysterious rendez-vous (Flash/Iris) or two “enemies” having a charged, tense scene (Savitar/Iris).

I personally think there’s nothing wrong with Grant, or with Candice, or with Grant and Candice together. It’s not like the two actors have to act out passionate, intense scenes but are unable to deliver. They’re just not given those types of scenes at all. How much of this is due to the PG rating, to racism or to Grant not being your typical male lead, I don’t know. I just know that the (very few) times Grant and Candice are given more sexy scenes, they are always able to pull them off. And they are much better together than with any of their other love interests or pseudo love interests.

I also noticed that while some fans want sexy times, others seem put off by the idea. I’ve seen people say some odd things like “Barry and Iris are cute/okay but the idea of them having sex makes me cringe” or “I can’t even watch them kiss”. Maybe the writers think like those fans. Maybe that’s why we don’t get sex scenes and the camera doesn’t linger on their kisses, which is problematic in itself. To clarify, I don’t believe there’s anything wrong with fans/writers not wanting on screen sex scenes, but if they apply this line of thinking only to some couples but not to others, one starts to wonder if there’s something else at play…

I personally think Grant and Candice are great at the romance aspect. Grant especially plays heart eyes Barry very well. They don’t give off a siblings/friendly/roommates vibe at all. To me Barry and Iris are perfect as a romantic, married couple in love.

Though there’s something that bothers me about Westallen and it’s not so much the lack of sexy scenes but it’s the fact that the writers insist on always interrupting them. It stopped being funny ages ago.

On 1/1/2018 at 8:43 AM, johntfs said:

Grant as Barry seems like that nice young man who goes to your church, married that nice young woman, Iris and you secretly hope for her sake that he doesn't turn out to be gay.

Lol I feel the same…about Iris and Eddie. It may be an unpopular opinion around here but I remember thinking Eddie had much better chemistry with Barry.

[tofutan]

It would certainly be interesting to make a concrete list with strange cutaways (like Barry's goodbye to Iris before he walks off into the speedforce with his mother) and see if it's the same director/directors with the most egregious cases or whether it's multiple people. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

Too many posts to quote, so I'm just going to respond in general to what I've read--I admit the show and Kreisberg or whoever was in charge of the show in season two did Iris a MAJOR disservice. I've also read comparisons between Barry and sidelining of Iris to Abbie from Sleepy Hollow. Which, I don't think are comparable. And when I say that, I mean, that Ichabod and Abbie weren't presented as love interests. I DO agree that Nichole was shabbily treated and sidelined for the utter talentless Katia what'sherface. And quit watching when Nichole left the show. Not even Tom Mison's hotness and charm was enough to get me to watch that final season, though I cackled when it fried and burned.

That said, I don't compare the two, because while I do think Iris was sidelined, there was no need to do that--sure, don't have her and Barry get involved romantically right away--that would make her love for Eddie, not mean anything.

And like I mentioned in the Speed Dating thread, I never thought Patty was anything more than a temporary love interest filler, until such time that Barry and Iris could and would find their way to each other. Otherwise, the actress would have been made part of the main cast and not a guest star. She was set for only a number of episodes, and when that was done, she was gone. Thank goodness.

And frankly, I do think that Iris saying "I'm not bitter" and complaining about the gift that Felicity and Oliver gave them, and that Felicity "interrupted" her wedding (which, no, she didn't. The wedding was crashed by Nazis; it was the impromptu ceremony that was interrupted) was Iris being written out of character. Because the week before, nothing, NOTHING on either Barry or Iris's face, indicated they were peeved at Felicity's jumping in or said anything; on the contrary--they both spent most of the cross over, trying to get those two to also tie the knot. Yes, Iris can be snarky. I just don't think this was one of those times, and it was, to me, just those Flash writers who decided to fan the already high flames out on the internets, even more with that shoddy writing.

[Starry]

38 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And frankly, I do think that Iris saying "I'm not bitter" and complaining about the gift that Felicity and Oliver gave them, and that Felicity "interrupted" her wedding (which, no, she didn't. The wedding was crashed by Nazis; it was the impromptu ceremony that was interrupted) was Iris being written out of character. Because the week before, nothing, NOTHING on either Barry or Iris's face, indicated they were peeved at Felicity's jumping in or said anything; on the contrary--they both spent most of the cross over, trying to get those two to also tie the knot. Yes, Iris can be snarky. I just don't think this was one of those times, and it was, to me, just those Flash writers who decided to fan the already high flames out on the internets, even more with that shoddy writing.

Felicity did interrupt her wedding ceremony. It doesn't matter that it wasn't her big church wedding. It's still an interruption in a life full of interruptions. And just because Barry and Iris encouraged Oliver and Felicity to tie the knot that does not give them permission to jump in and get married during their impromptu ceremony. I was never thrilled with a double wedding but I don't get why they had to write it this way? After the events of the crossover, both couples could have planned to have a sudden double ceremony and we could have avoided the OTT hatred thrown at both women. I also find it so disappointing that it's Barry who put the gift in the return pile but Iris is the only one getting heat (I'm not talking about you, it's just something that I noticed).

I have to say that The Flash writers also deserve some flack for interrupting the honeymoon and not giving Barry and Iris a small reception with their friends and family.

[SevenStars]

15 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

  

Since Caitlin got the same kind of crappy writing, (only used to advance the plot by being an info dump or love interest )I blame gender though, not race.

Unfortunately for Candice/Iris, it can be both and a lot of times, it is both. I think one of the reasons it is probably both in this case is because Caitlin is not part of The Flash source materials. She's a character that is barely in the comics when it comes to the Flash. So base on that, she is on the show because the writers WANTS her to be, to write for her. This is why they try to find as many ways as possible to keep her on the show and relevant, even when it is hurting the show by having her be in it the way the writers write for her. The writing is still crapping for her but it is clear the writers wants her on the show and relevant.

But with Iris, the writers have plenty of sources materials to use to make her relevant and more integrated into the main storylines but it wasn't until recently that the writers seems to be trying to do that with her. It seems like they really had no interest in writing for her despite the fact that they have source materials they could use for inspirition/ideas for her, unlike Caitlin. So this is why at this point, I think it could/can have been both.

[GHScorpiosRule]

12 minutes ago, Starry said:

Felicity did interrupt her wedding ceremony. It doesn't matter that it wasn't her big church wedding. It's still an interruption in a life full of interruptions. And just because Barry and Iris encouraged Oliver and Felicity to tie the knot that does not give them permission to jump in and get married during their impromptu ceremony.

I'm not saying she didn't. What I am saying, and what was shown on screen, was that Barry and Iris didn't mind it. There was no "No, you can't do this" or "Yes, we do mind" from them, either in words or expressions. They did the opposite--they were smiling and thought it was a good idea. And if it wasn't for Felicity mentioning Diggle, Barry and Iris wouldn't have found someone so...quickly to marry them right then and there.

Then there's the fact that all writers across the board of all shows knew that this year's crossover would be Barry and Iris getting married, and that it wouldn't be on their own show. None of that is Felicity's fault. And I lay the blame at the person who started all this by saying Felicity was "the worst" evah! for what she did. Really? Worse than the Nazis? Alrighty then. I've already posted about this in the various episode threads and don't wish to rehash it again.

[Starry]

2 hours ago, SevenStars said:

But with Iris, the writers have plenty of sources materials to use to make her relevant and more integrated into the main storylines but it wasn't until recently that the writers seems to be trying to do that with her. It seems like they really had no interest in writing for her despite the fact that they have source materials they could use for inspirition/ideas for her, unlike Caitlin. So this is why at this point, I think it could/can have been both.

I think the writers made Iris the team leader because they want to keep STAR Labs and Caitlin (and Wells and Ralph and Cisco...) relevant. If they had followed the source material Iris would be a reporter on screen and they'd use her journalism to generate more stories. They've sacrificed Iris' career for STAR Labs and its characters, Caitlin included.

Also, even when she's being terribly written Caitlin still gets the PoV that Iris is so often denied. She also has characters that care about her. Despite not being close to the protagonist Caitlin has other characters that get to show their concern on screen. If Iris didn't have Barry (and occasionally Joe) she'd have no-one.

 

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I'm not saying she didn't. What I am saying, and what was shown on screen, was that Barry and Iris didn't mind it. There was no "No, you can't do this" or "Yes, we do mind" from them, either in words or expressions. They did the opposite--they were smiling and thought it was a good idea. And if it wasn't for Felicity mentioning Diggle, Barry and Iris wouldn't have found someone so...quickly to marry them right then and there.

Then there's the fact that all writers across the board of all shows knew that this year's crossover would be Barry and Iris getting married, and that it wouldn't be on their own show. None of that is Felicity's fault. And I lay the blame at the person who started all this by saying Felicity was "the worst" evah! for what she did. Really? Worse than the Nazis? Alrighty then. I've already posted about this in the various episode threads and don't wish to rehash it again.

But Barry and Iris had already decided to go to a Justice of the Peace. It was nice of Felicity to suggest Diggle to make it more personal but it wasn't a life or death situation. Iris and Barry would have gotten married with or without Felicity's input. They had no PoV in that situation so I can't say for a fact how thrilled they were to be interrupted. Also, I believe in that moment they were just happy to be finally married.

Of course it's all the writers' fault but in-show it makes sense for Iris to be bitter at what the characters did. No Felicity is not The Worst and certainly not worse than the Nazis. Like Iris is not a self-centered, mean, fake, backstabbing bitch for being upset. But then I am sure the person who said those things about Felicity is one of those biased haters that would have found a way to blame her for everything. I wouldn't even try to reason with them.

Edited January 2, 2018 by Starry

[SevenStars]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Because the week before, nothing, NOTHING on either Barry or Iris's face, indicated they were peeved at Felicity's jumping in or said anything; on the contrary--they both spent most of the cross over, trying to get those two to also tie the knot. Yes, Iris can be snarky. I just don't think this was one of those times, and it was, to me, just those Flash writers who decided to fan the already high flames out on the internets, even more with that shoddy writing.

Actually when Felicity interrupted them BOTH Iris and Barry looked bothered by it. Frankly, I'm just glad Iris was written as having an honest human emotions about something that would bother most people and not just silently accept Oliticty's actions what feeling some type of way about it.

 

I think people compare Iris and Abbie's situation because both actors were cast in the lead female position on their shows. But the writing sideline them like they were minor characters while finding ways to make white female characters relevant,  when it makes no sense and hurts the show. For me and most fans, it wasn't about Abbie being a  "love interest " for What his name, I didn't ship her with him, it was about Abbie being written as a minor character when she is bill as the lead. That was the problem, not her not being a love interest and I honestly hate that people interpreted it as such when the majority of fans spent seasons after seasons trying to get the writers to just write for Abbie.

I personally just stopped watching SH the minute I realized they were doing to her the same thing that happened to Lacey over at Twisted. I stopped watching S2 of Flash live when I saw the same signed and honestly, I think if the S2 headwriter hadn't been fired, the same thing would have happened to Iris.

Edited January 2, 2018 by SevenStars

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I'm not saying she didn't. What I am saying, and what was shown on screen, was that Barry and Iris didn't mind it. There was no "No, you can't do this" or "Yes, we do mind" from them, either in words or expressions. They did the opposite--they were smiling and thought it was a good idea. And if it wasn't for Felicity mentioning Diggle, Barry and Iris wouldn't have found someone so...quickly to marry them right then and there.

Then there's the fact that all writers across the board of all shows knew that this year's crossover would be Barry and Iris getting married, and that it wouldn't be on their own show. None of that is Felicity's fault. And I lay the blame at the person who started all this by saying Felicity was "the worst" evah! for what she did. Really? Worse than the Nazis? Alrighty then. I've already posted about this in the various episode threads and don't wish to rehash it again.

I do have an issue with the whole double wedding thing, in that it shouldn't have happened. I'm putting blame on Berlanti because it was his idea, even though I like the guy. He was off base with his decision, and the writers in the following Flash episode could have written Iris' reaction differently. 

Here's why I had an issue, even as a fan of both couples: there was a no-win situation with what they actually gave us. What they should have done was allow Diggle to marry Iris and Barry first BEFORE Felicity jumped in with proposing to Oliver. What should have happened was allow each couple to have their own individual kissing shots after being pronounced husband and wife. What should have happened with Iris in the following episode was to allow her opinion about not being happy about Felicity/Oliver also getting married right after them without looking like a bridezilla that so many shows used to do with female characters. I thought we grew past that point with female characters. 

What did happen was they inserted Felicity's revelation about her own relationship too quickly. Greg Berlanti had the double wedding idea first and then wrote the characters into that plot, instead of the other way around. The Nazi stuff allowed for a plot for the crossover, and a delay to the double wedding. 

What happened was The Flash wedding became the Arrow wedding, as evidenced by Olicity being one of three main plots throughout the crossover, while WestAllen got their first hour and then didn't get to talk much until the final hour. That's why it's such a bad idea to write characters around a plot, instead of a plot around the characters. It makes for messy characterization and some portion of the audience pissed off. 

Also, if Iris and/or Barry had spoken up during that scene about not feeling comfortable with Olicity jumping on the wedding bandwagon, they would have been portrayed as rude somehow. Also, that's not how TV works. The scene was written for the double wedding. They had a set goal in mind, and that's how it was done. It would have felt out of place to have either of them speak up. 

It was a shit idea all around, and I knew it was going to be awful when I first heard about the double wedding being real. Barry/Iris had no chance at speaking up because at the end of the day, no matter what Felicity said, there was no choice. The scene was written somewhat subtly to make it seem like Felicity was giving them a choice, but since the plan was for the double wedding to happen, and as to not make Iris look even pettier (especially with the complaints in The Flash episode afterward), their characters couldn't actually say anything.

I put the blame on the writing and Berlanti, period. This is why I didn't want Olicity getting married at all during the crossover. The Flash fans were expecting a WestAllen wedding; they weren't expecting a double wedding where it became more about Olicity. 

[SevenStars]

Honestly,  I think a lot of fans have a problem with Iris/Barry respond to the double wedding because they were using Iris/Barry's lack of response to Felicity's interruption as a defense for Olicity's action and to shut up people who were bothered by it. Westallen response to this action in the following episode took away that defense.

It actually makes a lot of sense for Iris to be bothered/petty about that interruption because she and Barry can't seems to have a true moment without being interrupted by one thing or another. So to have Felicty be one of those people who added to that pattern when she was trying to avoid that with a quick wedding makes sense. That's one of the main reason I loved Iris' reaction no matter how much hate she gets from it. I don't care cause it makes sense from a writing stand point. 

[Trini]

5 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

It was a shit idea all around, and I knew it was going to be awful when I first heard about the double wedding being real. Barry/Iris had no chance at speaking up because at the end of the day, no matter what Felicity said, there was no choice. The scene was written somewhat subtly to make it seem like Felicity was giving them a choice, but since the plan was for the double wedding to happen, and as to not make Iris look even pettier (especially with the complaints in The Flash episode afterward), their characters couldn't actually say anything.

Agreed that it was a bad idea from the get-go. But even if they wanted the end point to be both couples married, there were other ways to do that without making anyone (Felicity, in particular) look bad. Such an odd choice.

I disagree about Iris' reaction in the Flash episode, though. I'm glad that she (and Barry) get to say something about their third ceremony getting interrupted; plus it confirmed that not all the writers agreed with the double wedding idea.

 

4 hours ago, doram said:

Thank you for this. Honestly, the idea that Iris being bothered by something that would bother most people is OOC and makes her "bitchy" makes me break out in goosepimples. It harkens back to the Stepford-ness of Iris in Season 3, and how she demeaned her own life that even a GORILLA was considered more valuable than Iris West.

I don't think that is her demeaning her own life; she didn't want Barry to become a murderer. Plus, killing Grodd wasn't going to save her.

Edited January 3, 2018 by Trini

[Lady Calypso]

19 minutes ago, Trini said:

I disagree about Iris' reaction in the Flash episode, though. I'm glad that she (and Barry) get to say something about their third ceremony getting interrupted; plus it confirmed that not all the writers agreed with the double wedding idea.

I don't hate that Iris spoke up; I just want to be extra clear about that. I think it was well deserved. I just didn't like the manner that the writers had her speak up, because that type of writing is what I've seen from older shows that don't portray their female characters well at all. The exact same writers also wrote that scene where Iris waited until a funeral was just ending to ask the priest to marry them. Not a bad idea in concept, but not a good execution at all. It's just showing to maybe be a pattern with the duo when it comes to writing for Iris. 

So, with Iris' reaction to the ceremony being interrupted, right idea, but not the best way to go about it. It just needed to be handled differently, and that reaction falls square on the writers. Also, the fact that the blame from people falls upon the female characters, rather than the male characters. Barry didn't really get to say a word except agree with Iris, and Oliver caused the whole wedding debacle to happen in the crossover by insisting to talk about marriage with Felicity right during the rehearsal dinner. 

[SevenStars]

26 minutes ago, Trini said:

I don't think that her demeaning her own life; she didn't want Barry to become a murderer. Plus, killing Grodd wasn't going to save her.

 

Actually the whole point was that by killing Grodd, it would change the future, therefore, change Iris death. So for all they know and for all we know that could have easily saved Iris live, and HR would be alive also. I wouldn't have a problem with that scene if it wasn't a continuation of Iris putting her life below everyone and everything else, and acting like her life was expandable. With that said, maybe the writers did that because they already had Barry willing to do anything and sacrifice anything/any one, even the well being of the city, in order to keep Iris alive. So maybe the writers felt it would be too much to have Iris act the same way, despite the fact that it would have made sense. They needed Iris to be the opposite of Barry in that sense. 

[Trini]

2 hours ago, SevenStars said:

Actually the whole point was that by killing Grodd, it would change the future, therefore, change Iris death. So for all they know and for all we know that could have easily saved Iris live, and HR would be alive also. I wouldn't have a problem with that scene if it wasn't a continuation of Iris putting her life below everyone and everything else, and acting like her life was expandable. With that said, maybe the writers did that because they already had Barry willing to do anything and sacrifice anything/any one, even the well being of the city, in order to keep Iris alive. So maybe the writers felt it would be too much to have Iris act the same way, despite the fact that it would have made sense. They needed Iris to be the opposite of Barry in that sense. 

Yeah, they wanted Iris to be the levelheaded one, with Barry going to extremes.

As to the bolded; that whole plot was sketchy to me from the start, because the real problem was Savitar. Changing a few unrelated events didn't make sense to me as a plan to save Iris. (And looking back it ended up being mainly filler since none of that helped her directly.)

[Trini]

4 hours ago, doram said:

*On average across all 3.5 seasons, Caitlin has got the most screentime out of all the female characters - including Iris on the show. By screentime, I mean time when she has speaking lines.  

Just curious; is this your overall impression, or do you have a count? Because I've seen at least one tally where Iris has the most screentime with Caitlin a very close second place.

[tofutan]

I have seen one screentime count at that had Caitlin ahead only in season 2. With Iris being ahead in season 3 by a big margin and by a small margin in season 1.

[Trini]

1 hour ago, doram said:

Barry's "willingness" never translated beyond words into actions. He talked the talk and he never walked the walk and it was grating to see that.

Come on; even if you think the show didn't have him do enough, he didn't do nothing.

[DearEvette]

7 hours ago, doram said:

That's where understanding intersectionality comes in. In other words, the White Feminist viewpoint that all women suffer sexism equally, is blatantly untrue, and it's a form of silencing to dismiss the unique sexism that women of colour, and especially black women suffer as irrelevant/insignificant or "it's the same thing really as white women". Because it's not.

No it really isn't the same.  Candace came to the show already at an extreme disadvantage comparative to other characters because she was black.  They race bent Iris, so there was already pre-negative feelings about that.  If a relatively unknown white female actress had been cast as Iris, she wouldn't have started at the acceptance deficit Candace had to start with. 

[SevenStars]

2 hours ago, doram said:

 

Well, it's telling that the most extreme thing that Barry was allowed to do to save Iris was propose to her for the wrong reasons.

Iris not wanting Barry to become a murderer/cross lines to save her --- that was fine. Barry going along with this thinking, basically putting Iris's good opinion of him over her life/well-being was wrong. 

 

 

Barry's "willingness" never translated beyond words into actions. He talked the talk and he never walked the walk and it was grating to see that.

I'll admit that the optics of Iris asking Barry to spare Grodd/ remain "good" was annoying - but it won't have been a problem per se - if Barry and everyone else didn't go along with. 

It's a common, tropey kind of storyline - where the heroine's life is danger and she's all like "I'd rather die than have you --- [insert morally wrong action]" and the hero basically goes "yeah, I'd rather you hate me than you die so..." Basically the show had Iris say, "I think a gorilla's life is more important than mine" and Barry says, "yeah, you're right"

 

I see your point but I think this had to do with the writers wanting the audience to know that Barry was willing to do whatever it takes to keep Iris alive but at the same time they didn't want Barry to cross any lines that would make him seem bad, especially since they already had plans to reveal an "evil" Barry within that story. So they had Barry say the words to show Iris importance but kept him from acting on it to protect his character, since most of the actions that were brought up in this situation involved Barry intentionally killing or doing something that would cause harm to the rest of the city. So in this case, I think the writers were hopping words would matter more than actions.

[johntfs]

9 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I'm not saying she didn't. What I am saying, and what was shown on screen, was that Barry and Iris didn't mind it. There was no "No, you can't do this" or "Yes, we do mind" from them, either in words or expressions. They did the opposite--they were smiling and thought it was a good idea

Can't it be both?  Right there in the moment a double-wedding feels super-romantic and then later on Iris and Barry are little bit "Jesus, fuck.  Couldn't we have had our wedding just to ourselves?"

[Kate45]

3 hours ago, doram said:

Oh, I wasn't clear. I didn't say that Barry sat on his hands and refused to do anything. I meant Barry never defied Iris to save Iris (unless you count the faux-proposal which, again, is telling, isn't it?). He kept wanting to but the show - through Iris - never let him. 

When usually with storylines like this, the guy would end up going against his OTL's wishes if it meant a choice between her good opinion of him and her literal life. 

He did go against her wishes on a couple of occasions, and that led to some in the fandom claiming that "Iris has made Barry into a selfish person" ?. Off the top of my head, I can remember that he went to the future against her wishes (she wanted him to look for Caitlin), and he time traveled to get Snart. Before he even told her about the future, he decided to not catch Plunder. 

I think it's important to remember that Barry really values being someone that Iris thinks highly of. Because of that, I think he was less willing to go against her wishes. Quite frankly, I'm glad that held him back because Barry didn't have the slightest clue about what he was doing and none of it seemed to help.

Moving forward, I hope Barry can finally get an actual win against the big bad. He's 0/3 at this point. I can't figure out why the producers are okay with this. 

Edited January 3, 2018 by Kate45

[Trini]

Posting this here since it specifically points out CW's 'black writer problem': AMC, CBS, CW Have a ‘Black Problem’ in Writers Rooms, New Report Finds. (Direct link to the report.)

Quote

The report was created from an examination of 234 original, scripted comedy and drama series from 18 different networks during the previous television season. AMC stands out as “the worst on overall inclusion” when considering both race and gender, according to the report, as well as CBS and the CW, which the report says have a “black problem” because they’re lacking black writers.

They looked at shows from last season, so CW is doing slightly better this year because of Black Lightning, which has two black showrunners.

[tofutan]

Very cool report. I still wish reports like these would let us see the raw data. Am I reading this right, CW actually does somewhat okay in "shows with 3 or more POC writers" but terrible with black writers specifically?