Lightning Rods: Gender, Race, Homosexuality and Other Sensitive Topics

[phoenics]

On 10/20/2018 at 11:31 PM, Trini said:

For the love of cheese, it's been 5 seasons: get Candice a proper stylist!

At this point, with THREE black women on the show now, the stylist shouldn't be a generalist.  The stylist should be focused on black hair and styles - and a generalist with other hair types (caucasian, etc).  But I guarantee that's not what is happening.  The show has 3 black women, but I bet it's still behaving as though all of the actresses are white with how they staff their stylists.  They need to sit at Ava DuVernay's knee.

[adora721]

Things seem to be heating up with Shethority on Twitter and Instagram; I hope the purpose of the company doesn't get lost in this current storm.

[SevenStars]

14 minutes ago, adora721 said:

Things seem to be heating up with Shethority on Twitter and Instagram; I hope the purpose of the company doesn't get lost in this current storm.

What storm?

[adora721]

Just now, SevenStars said:

What storm?

Some CP fans are tweeting at Caity Lotz about Danielle Panabaker failing to acknowledge Candice's contribution as a co-founder of Shethority in at least two interviews. Some are also writing to Caity on Instagram. It's kinda ugly.

[phoenics]

46 minutes ago, adora721 said:

Some CP fans are tweeting at Caity Lotz about Danielle Panabaker failing to acknowledge Candice's contribution as a co-founder of Shethority in at least two interviews. Some are also writing to Caity on Instagram. It's kinda ugly.

I agree with the fans though - it's beyond ugly for Caity or someone not to take DP aside and tell her if she can't acknowledge CP's contribution as co-founder and if she continues to erase her in her statements, she shouldn't be allowed to rep for Shethority.  And she shouldn't.  Erasure is a thing and it makes Shethority look hypocritical and like it can't walk the walk it's preaching.  DP is being SUPER shady in her statements and in what she talks about.  She erases CP constantly and it has to stop.  I don't know how Caity expects black women to rep Shethority when it ignores DP's blatant foolishness.

Nevermind that it hardly features any women of color.  It's very, very WHITE.  No one needed another white feminist organization.  Is Candice even still involved?

Edited November 6, 2018 by phoenics

[ruby24]

None of those women are going to acknowledge that though. DP is their friend, they'll see it as people attacking her for no reason and close ranks. Caity Lotz admitted herself in one of these interviews that she feels "attacked" when people question her on the privilege of white women, etc.

[phoenics]

17 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

None of those women are going to acknowledge that though. DP is their friend, they'll see it as people attacking her for no reason and close ranks. Caity Lotz admitted herself in one of these interviews that she feels "attacked" when people question her on the privilege of white women, etc.

Well then she's missed the whole point and those black women are right to question her actions.  If you feel "attacked" when people question her on her white privilege, then she's not an ally and what she's engaging in is ally theatership, which is HARMFUL to black women and women of color.  Full stop.

I'm so sick of white feminists taking up space and centering themselves at all costs.

[adora721]

I'm hoping that this doesn't drive a wedge between CP and CL; they are roommates as well as friends. 

[Kate45]

17 hours ago, adora721 said:

I'm hoping that this doesn't drive a wedge between CP and CL; they are roommates as well as friends. 

They WERE roommates last year. They no longer live together. Nothing malicious, but they don’t live together anymore. 

[adora721]

And it's getting worse; it seems Katie Cassidy claimed some responsibility for starting Shethority, too, in a 5/28/18 interview and no mention of Candice.

"The thing that’s so cool about SheThority is that it came together organically just because us women on the show are all really good friends. It started out with myself on Arrow and then Caity Lotz came on and she and I just clicked. "

Here's a quote from DP's TV Insider interview with no mention of Candice: 

"And are you part of the Shethority squad?

I am! Caity [Lotz] has done an incredible job. "

I'm getting a bad feeling like this is a concerted effort on the part of some to push Candice out with the ring leaders being Katie and Danielle P, but Caity has been unwittingly (?) pulled in.

Edited November 7, 2018 by adora721

[phoenics]

Wow - that's really bad.

4 hours ago, Kate45 said:

They WERE roommates last year. They no longer live together. Nothing malicious, but they don’t live together anymore. 

See - something fishy is going on.  I'm sorry - but CL's silence on this matter whilst she gets all the credit is utterly damning.  I really don't want to have to sick black twitter on her.

[rogueprinzess]

On 11/6/2018 at 4:26 AM, phoenics said:

At this point, with THREE black women on the show now, the stylist shouldn't be a generalist.  The stylist should be focused on black hair and styles - and a generalist with other hair types (caucasian, etc).  But I guarantee that's not what is happening.  The show has 3 black women, but I bet it's still behaving as though all of the actresses are white with how they staff their stylists.  They need to sit at Ava DuVernay's knee.

The show would actually have to acknowledge that Iris and Cecile and Joe and Wally are black before they can start to address things like their natural hair. The Flash, Arrow and SG live in this fantasy world where racial issues and bigotry don't exist unless they refer to metas. This is why shows like Black Lightning and TItans could never fly in this universe. They refuse to integrate the reality of different cultures and backgrounds in the shows.

[Trini]

Quote

As difficult as it is for African-American actresses to find work on genre TV, it's even tougher for black stuntwomen. "I have seen [black] actors that have [white] stunt doubles come in and sit in the hair-and-makeup chair and they would be painted brown," says Candice Patton, 30, who plays Iris West in The Flash on The CW. "But it's not enough to check a box and say, 'We have a gay superhero or a black superhero or a Latino superhero' — you can have diverse content, but you have to back it up by hiring diverse people behind the scenes as well."

Rochelle Okoye, who doubles for Patton on the show, knows that a greater range of diversity on the screen means more doors open elsewhere. “When I first started doubling, there wasn’t a lot of women of color playing these roles," she says. "It is great for me and other stunt women of color because it means more opportunity." For the Vancouver-based Okoye, who's been doing stunt work for a decade, The Flash was nothing short of career-saving.

Quote

Okoye got hired for The Flash two years after her injury, in 2015. It was one of her first jobs since the accident (other post-injury credits include X-Men: Apocalypse and Star Trek: Beyond). While taking note of broader changes in the television landscape, she also noticed smaller developments that came with inclusive casting. “The hair thing,” she sighs. "Hollywood was expecting us to always have straight hair. But over the last two years, I have seen women of color leads come in and keep their curls, and the hair department is learning how to do their hair. It's a little thing, but it is great to see the industry progress.”

These days on The Flash Okoye and Patton's biggest challenge seems to be keeping up with ever-growing demands of the character, who started out as a spunky journalist but has grown over the past three years into a savvy team Flash leader with action beats all her own. "It's, 'We are going to give you 20 minutes on set to figure it out before we shoot,'" says the actress of the rapid-fire pace of production. But fans, especially young women of color, have continually voiced their appreciation for the character, both in person and on social media.

"I didn't grow up seeing women that looked like me in genre television," says Patton. Adds Okoye, "And seeing them participate in the action is empowering."

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/features/meet-stuntwomen-who-help-scarlett-johansson-sarah-michelle-gellar-1165239

[Trini]

Cross-posting this here, since it talks about diversity and representation:

'How The Flash's Candice Patton Is Changing the Game For Black Women in Comic Book Media'

[SimoneS]

8 hours ago, Starry said:

We can be "bad" people together because I also think she has BTS clout. She's in every crossover, even when her character could be replaced by anyone else.  Her story is full of holes and gets retconned all the time but it doesn't matter because it is giving her loads of screen time. She gets characters supporting her. She's the only one that gets randomly inserted into West-Allen family scenes.

I don't think it has much to do with BTS power, especially with Kreisberg gone. Rather DP is in an unique position, in that is she is the only white woman in the main cast and she isn't romantically paired with the leading man. This something that rarely occurs on the CW or on almost every tv show. Most of the audience are white men so the writers give DP more to do even though she is mediocre at best and it does work. Last time I checked there was a thread on the Reddit Flash board going on and on about how wonderful KF was in the last episode. Last time I checked there were a few sarcastic comments, but mostly agreement. 

[adora721]

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I don't think it has much to do with BTS power, especially with Kreisberg gone. 

The question is what's in her legally-binding contract that was drawn up when Kreisberg was there? Even with AJK gone, that contract is still enforced and may explain why she's in all the crossovers and in every episode. It may also explain why the social media pages follow her, retweet her, and highlight her often, even over Candice.

[SimoneS]

3 minutes ago, adora721 said:

The question is what's in her legally-binding contract that was drawn up when Kreisberg was there? Even with AJK gone, that contract is still enforced and may explain why she's in all the crossovers and in every episode. It may also explain why the social media pages follow her, retweet her, and highlight her often, even over Candice.

I highly doubt that the terms of DP's contract is any different from anyone's else contract except Grant's which I read somewhere is longer than the rest of the cast. These are standard industry contracts and CW is reputed to be the cheapest and least generous network. All the regular cast members are paid to be in every episode. When they aren't in an episode it is usually because the show is accommodating their projects or personal issues. I presume the actors who are in the crossovers get extra pay. I don't watch the crossovers other than the Barry/Iris clips so I don't know what she does in them, but it is likely that KF is in the crossovers because she has powers.

As for CW's giving DP more publicity than Candice, like I said, "she is the only white woman in the cast" so the CW publicity is promoting her (and Grant even more so) as it always has done with the majority white cast on its shows, while ignoring actors of color. Diversity is new and shocking to the CW and its parent company CBS. It was forced upon them by companies like WB/DC that have been responding to changing demographics and backlash from the media. The systemic institutional racism in the CW won't disappear overnight. 

[adora721]

56 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I highly doubt that the terms of DP's contract is any different from anyone's else contract

Keep in mind that AJK is friends with DP and he gave her the job without an audition. Also, AJK's wife is DP's agent; so, don't be so sure DP didn't get a cushy deal in terms of exposure on the show and in the media. Sure, DP may not be making as much money as GG, which should be expected, but there's tons of stuff DP got away with in the early seasons that was allowed because of her arrangement and contract drawn up under AJK. 

Edited January 25, 2019 by adora721

[SimoneS]

58 minutes ago, adora721 said:

Keep in mind that AJK is friends with DP and he gave her the job without an audition. Also, AJK's wife is DP's agent; so, don't be so sure DP didn't get a cushy deal in terms of exposure on the show and in the media. Sure, DP may not be making as much money as GG, which should be expected, but there's tons of stuff DP got away with in the early seasons that was allowed because of her arrangement and contract drawn up under AJK. 

 

Typically showrunners and producers like Kreisberg as employees have no sway over salary negotiations. DP's salary would have been negotiated between Berlanti's finance people and her agent. I find it unlikely that she would get any kind of cushy deal on a show that was just starting. Berlanti's shows have small budgets and he is not known for being generous. Amell is egotistical, but from what I read in an interview about his negotiations, Berlanti plays hardball. However, I don't doubt that once The Flash was a hit, it is likely that the actors would have attempted to negotiate a raise. I saw an interview where Candice implied that she had requested a raise and they have started including her in the crossovers.

Edited January 25, 2019 by SimoneS

[adora721]

9 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Typically showrunners and producers like Kreisberg as employees have no sway over salary negotiations. DP's salary would have been negotiated between Berlanti's finance people and her agent. I find it unlikely that she would get any kind of cushy deal on a show that was just starting. Berlanti's shows have small budgets and he is not known for being generous. Amell is egotistical, but from what I read in an interview about his negotiations, Berlanti plays hardball. However, I don't doubt that once The Flash was a hit, it is likely that the actors would have attempted to negotiate a raise. I saw an interview where Candice implied that she had requested a raise and they have started including her in the crossovers.

 

OK; I pretty sure I didn't mention DP getting a cushy deal with regards to money. I agree with you about salary, but my response was about  DP getting special treatment when it comes to exposure and media because of her friendship with AJK and his wife.

Edited January 25, 2019 by adora721

[SimoneS]

7 minutes ago, adora721 said:

OK; I pretty sure I didn't mention DP getting a cushy deal with regards to money. I agree with you about salary, but my response was about  DP getting special treatment when it comes to exposure and media because of her friendship with AJK and his wife.

I thought you meant money when you referred to a "cushy deal." It is possible that DP could have gotten special treatment because of Kreisberg and his wife, but I still think that being the only white woman in the cast was the main reason that she got that attention.

[ursula]

The inclusion in the crossovers seems contractual. 

ETA: To elaborate, I agree with most of what both of you said to a large extent. Like @adora721 I also believe AJK's deep involvement with DP strongly indicates that she got a better deal in terms of appearance (which definitely translates in a large way to paychecks) on the show. The way Caitlin is written into the crossovers seems like something that would be part of a contract or at least a binding agreement. Kind of like the way Tom Cavanaugh has to play a different character every season. And unlike Tom's varying characters, a crossover appearance comes with extra paychecks, making it all the more likely that it's a contractual commitment, not just a handshake agreement. 

On the other hand, like @SimoneS I don't think the social media coverage is contractual. I think it's good ol' racism. As you said, she's the lone white woman and the "business" explanation is that they want to appeal to the white women demographic which is large and economically significant. However promoting DP significantly does not require them to ignore/refuse to promote CP, or does it? Marketing to white women (via Danielle) =/= not marketing to black women (via Candice).

Unless it is.

It seems that marketing to white women does require a woman of colour, especially a black woman to be ... "stepped on" so to speak, to boost up the white woman. They're not marketing DP to white women in the sense of "look at a white girl --- like you!" but in the "look at a white girl, propped up by, and pushing out the black girl --- as you should, too!" Which is the thing about racism, it's based on the idea that race is a zero-sum-game. Attention/focus given to Candice is perceived by racists as attention/focus that is taken from DP, that rightfully belonged to her first by virtue of her whiteness, and that she has now been robbed off to "appeal to diversity".

Edited January 25, 2019 by ursula

[BeautifulFlower]

23 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I highly doubt that the terms of DP's contract is any different from anyone's else contract except Grant's which I read somewhere is longer than the rest of the cast. These are standard industry contracts and CW is reputed to be the cheapest and least generous network. All the regular cast members are paid to be in every episode. When they aren't in an episode it is usually because the show is accommodating their projects or personal issues. I presume the actors who are in the crossovers get extra pay. I don't watch the crossovers other than the Barry/Iris clips so I don't know what she does in them, but it is likely that KF is in the crossovers because she has powers.

As for CW's giving DP more publicity than Candice, like I said, "she is the only white woman in the cast" so the CW publicity is promoting her (and Grant even more so) as it always has done with the majority white cast on its shows, while ignoring actors of color. Diversity is new and shocking to the CW and its parent company CBS. It was forced upon them by companies like WB/DC that have been responding to changing demographics and backlash from the media. The systemic institutional racism in the CW won't disappear overnight. 

I don't think so. I've seen other Cw shows. Except for the leads, the supporting characters are really not suppose to be in every episode. 

 

23 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I highly doubt that the terms of DP's contract is any different from anyone's else contract except Grant's which I read somewhere is longer than the rest of the cast. These are standard industry contracts and CW is reputed to be the cheapest and least generous network. All the regular cast members are paid to be in every episode. When they aren't in an episode it is usually because the show is accommodating their projects or personal issues. I presume the actors who are in the crossovers get extra pay. I don't watch the crossovers other than the Barry/Iris clips so I don't know what she does in them, but it is likely that KF is in the crossovers because she has powers.

As for CW's giving DP more publicity than Candice, like I said, "she is the only white woman in the cast" so the CW publicity is promoting her (and Grant even more so) as it always has done with the majority white cast on its shows, while ignoring actors of color. Diversity is new and shocking to the CW and its parent company CBS. It was forced upon them by companies like WB/DC that have been responding to changing demographics and backlash from the media. The systemic institutional racism in the CW won't disappear overnight. 

That was debunked a long time ago.  She got to crossover without powers before. This past crossover, she was not needed at all

[ursula]

Yes, DP was crossing over in seasons 1&2 before she got powers. Technically she was in a crossover episode before The Flash started airing.

[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I don't think so. I've seen other Cw shows. Except for the leads, the supporting characters are really not suppose to be in every episode. 

Series regulars including the ones in supporting roles have industry contracts with terms that are collectively bargained by SAG-AFTRA. These contracts mandate that actors be paid for every episode even if they do not appear in them. Consequently, most shows have their regulars in every episode. The Walking Dead and Game of Thrones are well known exceptions where regulars might not be in several episodes during a season, but they still have to pay them.

There are supporting actors who are recurring or have "guest roles" who might appear in multiple episodes as needed during a season and I think they are the ones you are referring to. There was an article on Deadline complaining that more and more actors were being paid next to nothing for these roles. While some networks/production companies give these actors short term contracts to make sure that they are available, CBS and WB (they own the CW and co-produce almost all the CW series) are notorious for being cheap and not giving the recurring actors' who have roles on the CW shows' short term contracts. This is why these actors in supporting roles aren't in every episode and when they get other gigs, they simply disappear or the show might come up with an exit story if the actor is available for one last appearance. 

Jessica Parker Kennedy (Nora), I read that she was recurring last season and when they decided to use her as Nora for the whole of season 5, they gave her a contract that made her a series regular so she would be available as needed which seems to be for every episode. Danielle Nicolet and Hartley Sawyer also moved from recurring to series regulars for season 5.

 

2 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

That was debunked a long time ago.  She got to crossover without powers before. This past crossover, she was not needed at all

Then maybe Kreisberg was the reason for DP's inclusion in the crossovers.

Edited January 26, 2019 by SimoneS

[Starry]

On 25/1/2019 at 3:21 AM, SimoneS said:

 I saw an interview where Candice implied that she had requested a raise and they have started including her in the crossovers.

They gave her a raise very recently but they have not started including her in the crossovers. The only crossover she was included in was the Crisis on Earth-X one. This year they went back to the status quo with Candice only being in the Flash part.

DP crossing over because her character has powers would make sense if said powers were showcased. I have seen all the Elseworlds episodes and in the Arrow one she gets knocked out by a cold blast. It was laughable. In the Supergirl one she doesn't use her powers at all. They just put DP in the KF wig and make-up. The episode was set in AU and KF was a part of the evil Superman team. Her role could have been given to anyone. Since it was a Supergirl episode the more sensible thing would have been to have a Supergirl character in her place. Instead, apart from Kara and Alex, all the Supergirl characters were sidelined and some of them were even excluded from the episode.

That's why I think her continued inclusion in the crossovers is the result of DP having BTS clout. I don't know to what extent but I doubt it's just because the writers love KF and her powers. When asked which character they like writing the most for, no Flash writer chose Caitlin/KF.

[adora721]

14 hours ago, Starry said:

When asked which character they like writing the most for, no Flash writer chose Caitlin/KF.

Perhaps that's why she recently bought the writers pizza at Christmas to curry some favor!

[Kate45]

On 1/25/2019 at 9:18 PM, SimoneS said:

Series regulars including the ones in supporting roles have industry contracts with terms that are collectively bargained by SAG-AFTRA. These contracts mandate that actors be paid for every episode even if they do not appear in them. Consequently, most shows have their regulars in every episode. The Walking Dead and Game of Thrones are well known exceptions where regulars might not be in several episodes during a season, but they still have to pay them.

There are supporting actors who are recurring or have "guest roles" who might appear in multiple episodes as needed during a season and I think they are the ones you are referring to. There was an article on Deadline complaining that more and more actors were being paid next to nothing for these roles. While some networks/production companies give these actors short term contracts to make sure that they are available, CBS and WB (they own the CW and co-produce almost all the CW series) are notorious for being cheap and not giving the recurring actors' who have roles on the CW shows' short term contracts. This is why these actors in supporting roles aren't in every episode and when they get other gigs, they simply disappear or the show might come up with an exit story if the actor is available for one last appearance. 

Jessica Parker Kennedy (Nora), I read that she was recurring last season and when they decided to use her as Nora for the whole of season 5, they gave her a contract that made her a series regular so she would be available as needed which seems to be for every episode. Danielle Nicolet and Hartley Sawyer also moved from recurring to series regulars for season 5.

 

Then maybe Kreisberg was the reason for DP's inclusion in the crossovers.

The standard DCTV contract is for 6 seasons, but of course they can release you faster like they did with Rick Cosnett. Or when they restructured and later allowed Keiy Lonsdale to leave the DCTV. I have read before that if you don’t appear in the episode, you don’t get paid. I have no clue if that’s true. But, I have also read that some of the DCTV actors are working under Canadian contracts with WB. 

Some actors get paid so much that I have a hard time believing that they get paid either way. I’m thinking of Grey's Anatomy, for example. Some of them have high paychecks and miss a number of episodes, and I had no clue the checks were still coming in. Also, most shows I watch *don’t*    have the regulars appear in every episode. I’ve always heard that being a series regular is about availability for the show, not appearing in every episode. 

Whatever the case, I’m super thankful they moved away from having every flash regular appearing in every flash episode. It’s so overcrowded on this show. I’m just waiting for my Caitlin/KF free episode! ☺️

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, Kate45 said:

The standard DCTV contract is for 6 seasons, but of course they can release you faster like they did with Rick Cosnett. Or when they restructured and later allowed Keiy Lonsdale to leave the DCTV. I have read before that if you don’t appear in the episode, you don’t get paid. I have no clue if that’s true. But, I have also read that some of the DCTV actors are working under Canadian contracts with WB. 

Some actors get paid so much that I have a hard time believing that they get paid either way. I’m thinking of Grey's Anatomy, for example. Some of them have high paychecks and miss a number of episodes, and I had no clue the checks were still coming in. Also, most shows I watch *don’t*    have the regulars appear in every episode. I’ve always heard that being a series regular is about availability for the show, not appearing in every episode. 

Whatever the case, I’m super thankful they moved away from having every flash regular appearing in every flash episode. It’s so overcrowded on this show. I’m just waiting for my Caitlin/KF free episode! ☺️

The standard six year industry primetime tv contracts require that the actors are paid whether or not they appear in episodes. The terms of these contracts have been collectively bargained between the union, SAG-AFTRA and the Alliance of Motion Picture & Television Producers. The actors on contract must be available for every episodes so the studios must pay for that availability or there is no point to having a contract. It doesn't mean that the show has to use them in every episode, but most do.  Also, the studios (excluding CW, I have read) sign actors who are going to do multi-episode guest stints during the season to contracts. This way they have the actor's availability locked in. They also have pay those actors whether they use them or not.  

If there are DCTV actors who have Canadian contracts, it is because they are members of ACTRA, the Canadian union and not SAG-AFTRA members who must work under SAG-AFTRA contracts even on foreign produced shows. I know that ACTRA, has its own collectively bargained agreement with the Alliance of Motion Picture & Television Producers. I have no clue what the terms of their contracts are, but highly doubt they are much different because from I have read that SAG-AFTRA and ACTRA have a formal alliance where they work together so that they aren't pitted against each other undercutting their members.

From what we have been told Carlos was not in those episodes because he filming a short film, not because The Flash is moving away from featuring all its contract actors in every episode. So don't get your hopes up about getting a break from Caitlin. :)

Edited February 3, 2019 by SimoneS

[Kate45]

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

If there are DCTV actors who have Canadian contracts, it is because they are members of ACTRA, the Canadian union and not SAG-AFTRA members who must work under SAG-AFTRA contracts even on foreign produced shows. I know that ACTRA, has its own collectively bargained agreement with the Alliance of Motion Picture & Television Producers. I have no clue what the terms of their contracts are, but highly doubt they are much different because from I have read that SAG-AFTRA and ACTRA have a formal alliance where they work together so that they aren't pitted against each other undercutting their members.

I listened to a podcast with Stephen Amell not too long ago and he talked about how working under the American contract is much, much better than working under the Canadian contract. He didn’t get into details, so I don’t know how it’s differnt. 

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

The standard six year industry primetime tv contracts require that the actors are paid whether or not they appear in episodes.

Could you talk more about this? Everything I have read about the DCTV contracts all but calls these contracts specifically predatory in nature. If this is the industry standard, why is it posited that way? 

I’ve never heard it explained this way before, so I’m really interested.

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

From what we have been told Carlos was not in those episodes because he filming a short film, not because The Flash is moving away from featuring all its contract actors in every episode. So don't get your hopes up about getting a break from Caitlin. :)

I find this paycheck thing super interesting, so bear with me while I try to make sense of this :)

Yeah, this short film filming situation speculation from the fandom. I’m not sure when he was filming that short movie with Melissa and Chris.

To be honest, I think that’s not true. Back in season 2, Danielle had to go to LA for some reason for 2 weeks during the filming of 2x21. She filmed her short scene with a different director just so that she would be in the episode. At the time it was said that they worked with her schedule to ensure she received her paycheck. Why did they do that, if she was being paid regardless? 

I mentioned Carlos earlier only because he is an original cast member and had never missed an episode prior to 5x04. He certainly wasn’t filming that short film back then. I do wonder if he took off 2 episodes to make up for the crossover episodes, since cutting costs on these shows has been brought up quite a bit especially with the crossover. 

Cast members who have missed episodes:

Jesse Martin missed 4x08 (maybe replaced by the SG episode?) or did he get paid for both even though he only he didn’t appear in the Flash episode? He also missed 4x14. He’s been out since 5x05 due to his back injury. He won’t return until 5x15, so does he get paid for all that time that he was out?

Tom Cav signed a limited 1 year contract for season 1. When he returned to the show, he only had to appear in 20 or 21 of the 23 episodes per season to have more time with his kids at the start of the season. Does he still get paid?

Candice said 12 words in the season 2 crossover and it was reported that she was written in to give her a paycheck, but now I don’t get the purpose.

Keiynan Lonsdale had a couple of episodes were he had a short scene while filming “Love, Simon” and again it was said to have been set up to ensure he got a paycheck. 

Newbies:

Hartley Sawyer has missed like 3 episodes so far in season 5.

Dani Nicolet has missed at least 4 episodes in season 5.

Jessica Parker Kennedy missed 1 episode in season 5. 

I just find it weird that they seemingly just figured out that everyone didn’t need to appear each episode, and I glad for it. I thought it was a cost saving measure, but now I’m just confused. Lol. 

Maybe the crossover is a part of the situation as both Candice and Emily only appeared in their own show’s episode? Or not? Honestly, I have no clue. 

 

ETA: I forgot to mention that it’s possible that these new actors are on limited contracts. For example, Erica Durance on Smallville was a series regular but she only had a contract for 13 episodes per season. Is that possible?

Edited February 3, 2019 by Kate45

[Trini]

I don't know about showbiz contracts, I can only guess.

 

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

From what we have been told Carlos was not in those episodes because he filming a short film, not because The Flash is moving away from featuring all its contract actors in every episode.

Kate45 beat me to it, but that's what I've seen people guessing, I don't think we know when it was filmed. And even then, I doubt they'd write him out of one or two episodes for such a minor side project.

Original cast members* absent from entire episodes seems really odd now because up until last season with Jesse L. Martin, they had always included everyone, even if it was just for one scene/line.

*(Sans Tom Cavanagh, who seems to be contracted for less episodes)
 

1 hour ago, Kate45 said:

I mentioned Carlos earlier only because he is an original cast member and had never missed an episode prior to 5x04. He certainly wasn’t filming that short film back then. I do wonder if he took off 2 episodes to make up for the crossover episodes, since cutting costs on these shows has been brought up quite a bit especially with the crossover. 

Again, I don't know for sure, but I don't think there's anything to 'make up for' with the crossover episodes in regards to the regular episodes of The Flash. The actors are billed as guest stars on the other shows; which I assume is a different contract and rate of pay.

But it is definitely weird that he's missing episodes, because while JLM has a medical excuse, Cisco is a fan and writer favorite, and is frequently used for exposition, plot devices, and deus ex machinas, so (to me) it seems more trouble to write him out than keep him involved.  ::shrug::

 

1 hour ago, Kate45 said:

Newbies:

All the new regulars that have come and gone seem to have different set-ups than the original regular cast. I don't really expect them to be in every episode. I'm actually amazed that Jessica P. Kennedy has only missed one episode so far.

[Velocity23]

9 hours ago, SimoneS said:

 

From what we have been told Carlos was not in those episodes because he filming a short film, not because The Flash is moving away from featuring all its contract actors in every episode. So don't get your hopes up about getting a break from Caitlin. :)

I would not bet on the fact that you get a Caitlin free episode. We just had David Ramsey direct an episode and he was still episode. 

[BeautifulFlower]

I don't think Cisco not being in those two episodes had anything to do with the short film. He was absent in 5x04 and 5x11. Those two episodes were filmed months apart from each other.

 

They need to start writing the supporting characters out. The episodes are overcrowded. Most of the times, Cisco or Caitlin are just THERE. You know what my dream episode would be? An episode like in the comics where Barry and Iris are investigating together and Barry defeats the villain on his own. He actually uses his intelligence. The subplot could be with Cecile or Joe. Its' my dream episodes because the other characters wouldn't be in it and we wouldn't see Star Labs for majority of the episode.

10 hours ago, Kate45 said:

 

Candice said 12 words in the season 2 crossover and it was reported that she was written in to give her a paycheck, but now I don’t get the purpose.

 

Ugh, don't remind me of this. I don't know what was going on the first half of season 2, but it was clear they were trying to push the Iris character out. I'm so glad the Iris West Defense Squad noticed it and fought back.

[SimoneS]

13 hours ago, Kate45 said:

Could you talk more about this? Everything I have read about the DCTV contracts all but calls these contracts specifically predatory in nature. If this is the industry standard, why is it posited that way? 

 

The only thing I know about the CW (which is owned by CBS and WB which owns DCTV) is that it is known as the least generous network when it comes to salaries and the shows have small budgets. It isn't by accident that the CW hires mostly unknown younger actors for it shows. It constantly low balls its actors. I saw reports that Amell and Gustin get paid $125,000 and $100,000 respectively for each episode, but I am pretty sure that isn't true. I read a few years ago that none of these actors were being paid over $40,000 per episode. Even with raises for the leads, I highly doubt they are getting as much as printed. The exceptions on the DCTV were probably the higher profile actors like Calista Lockhart (formerly Supergirl) and Jesse L Martin who both would have come in with a quote and high Q rating. They probably got salaries comparable to regular cast members on the other networks. The two Supernatural leads get paid the highest salaries on CW because it is just two of them and they reportedly negotiate as a team. 

 

13 hours ago, Kate45 said:

I’ve never heard it explained this way before, so I’m really interested.

I find this paycheck thing super interesting, so bear with me while I try to make sense of this :)

The key is here is actors on industry standard contracts are being paid for their availability when they are needed, but actors can negotiate to do other projects. An actor isn't available if they are doing another project so they won't be paid. However, that doesn't mean shows cannot accommodate the actors' other projects by adjusting the filming schedule for their scenes so that they still get paid which is what you seem to describe in the instances of Danielle and Keiynan. In fact, most shows tend to want to have good relationships with their cast and try to accommodate them when possible. For example, when Jesse L. Martin needed several episodes off to film Rent, Law & Order had his character, Ed Green shot and recuperating off screen for that time (about five episodes). I have no idea if Jesse was paid or not when he was not available. As for if Jesse is getting paid while on medical leave now, I have no clue, but it is safe to say that it probably determined by the collective bargaining agreement, but the WB could pay him whether it was required by contract or not... goodwill and all that.

I read that Hartley Sawyer, Danielle Nicolet, and Jessica Parker Kennedy were made regulars for season five, but they might have gotten one or two year contracts for all we know, but they still have to pay them if they don't use them in some episode so there is no saving money there. The contracts are structured so the shows have an incentive to release an actor they aren't committed to or have plans for so they can find other work rather than pay them and not use them. Tom Cavanagh's contract info is always vague. He probably negotiates to appear in a specific number of episodes per season.

Yes, networks have can sign actors who will be appearing in short arcs during the season to contracts. It happens all the time. I think that actor who played Patty Pivot on a short-term contract in season two. I did a search on Erica Durance. She was apparently on a 13 episode contract for season four and then became a regular in season 5 to the end of the series. 

Edited February 3, 2019 by SimoneS

[BeautifulFlower]

When Cisco performed a task that's in Caitlin's department, I saw people hating on that. 

In 5x13, Caitlin was working the computers in the van which should be Cisco's department. No one says anything.

Why is it Cisco can't do something like Caitlin, but Caitlin can do stuff normally Cisco does? I can't with the bias in this fandom. However, in this case, racial bias.

[SimoneS]

I will never stopped being amazed that The Flash has no Black writers. Do they even ever have Black directors. Berlanti's real world has no ethnic diversity which is completely reflected in the tokenism of the Black characters on the shows he has more control of. Sickening. I blame WB for letting him get away with this bullshit. No point mentioning CBS which has been dragged kicking and screaming into diversifying its tv programming.

Edited February 15, 2019 by SimoneS

[Trini]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

I will never stopped being amazed that The Flash has no Black writers. Do they even ever have Black directors. ...

The show has two black writers: Jonathan Butler and Eric Wallace. But they do need to hire some black women writers. And yes, there have been a few black directors. Marcus Stokes was the most recent one who did "Seeing Red".

[SimoneS]

4 minutes ago, Trini said:

The show has two black writers: Jonathan Butler and Eric Wallace. But they do need to hire some black women writers. And yes, there have been a few black directors. Marcus Stokes was the most recent one who did "Seeing Red".

Okay, maybe I saw an old photo, but there were no Black writers there.

[BeautifulFlower]

So people lose their mind if Iris says a science word because "she's not a scientist"

But not a peep from these same people over Sherloque talking about science and the speedforce. Nothing

Then these same people will continue to ignore their racial bias or racism.

[Trini]

[Cross-posting this here and transcribing the video since it's relevant to this topic.]

Quote

"Hi guys! Candice Patton here.

You now when I think back on my youth, and the shows that I watched, I remember this block of television called 'TGIF' on Friday nights on ABC. And one of my favorite shows was 'Boy Meets World'. Everyone loved Cory and Topanga and all of the characters... and several seasons in, they introduced another character by the name of Angela as a romantic love interest for Shawn.

"Shawn finds this backpack, and it's filled with all of these items that he loves and he wants to return this backpack and find the woman who owns all these items. And when he does, you see that it's this African-American woman named Angela, played by Trina McGee, and i just remember as a young person, a young black woman, you know, it really struck me.

"I hadn't seen a lot of young African-American women be love interests; especially on a young, hip, popular show like 'Boy Meets World'. And so there was a part of me that felt beautiful, and desirable, just like Angela. And I just- It will never leave me,  it was such a poignant moment for me, watching television at that age in my life, and so it's one that will stick with me for a very long time."

And now Candice is doing the same for other young women watching TV!

[BeautifulFlower]

On 2/16/2019 at 8:50 PM, Trini said:

[Cross-posting this here and transcribing the video since it's relevant to this topic.]

And now Candice is doing the same for other young women watching TV!

Black men get on my nerves. They're nowhere to be seen when Candice gets racist hate thrown towards, but they're here to demonize her for saying she identifies with Angela and BMW was her favorite show. Sick of them twisting her words. And I'm definitely sick of the ones claiming she don't even look black and mixed with Asian.

This is Candice's opinion and I appreciate it. I loved Shawn/Angela. It was nice to see a black woman be desired by a white man on a predominately white show. How many of these types of tv shows have this?

[SimoneS]

4 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Black men get on my nerves. They're nowhere to be seen when Candice gets racist hate thrown towards, but they're here to demonize her for saying she identifies with Angela and BMW was her favorite show. Sick of them twisting her words. And I'm definitely sick of the ones claiming she don't even look black and mixed with Asian.

Who is saying this? Seriously, these people are the worse. They just want any excuse to drag on Black women who are accomplishing something notable. They have nothing to give and only care about themselves. They are the flip side of the racists who have viciously and relentlessly attacking Candice since she took on the role of Iris. 

ETA: I saw some of this argument which seems to be coming from a minority in the Black community, men and women. Honestly, most people have Candice's back. On social media and the more popular forums, I see a lot more positive comments supporting her. Trina McGee stood up for Candice. One thing about the Internet and social media is that gives a minority a microphone to shout their ugly opinions loudly. 

Edited February 18, 2019 by SimoneS

[adora721]

5 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Black men get on my nerves. They're nowhere to be seen when Candice gets racist hate thrown towards, but they're here to demonize her for saying she identifies with Angela and BMW was her favorite show. Sick of them twisting her words. And I'm definitely sick of the ones claiming she don't even look black and mixed with Asian.

Since learning there are two male, Black writers on the show, I've started to wonder if that's one of the reasons for less WestAllen PDA this season. Black men are known for not supporting Black women dating/marrying White men, even though Black men date interracially more often than Black women. Just wondering if their bias is influencing the lack of romance shown this season.

[SevenStars]

1 hour ago, adora721 said:

Since learning there are two male, Black writers on the show, I've started to wonder if that's one of the reasons for less WestAllen PDA this season. Black men are known for not supporting Black women dating/marrying White men, even though Black men date interracially more often than Black women. Just wondering if their bias is influencing the lack of romance shown this season.

I don't think they have enough power for that and this problem didn't start this season.

[BeautifulFlower]

6 hours ago, adora721 said:

Since learning there are two male, Black writers on the show, I've started to wonder if that's one of the reasons for less WestAllen PDA this season. Black men are known for not supporting Black women dating/marrying White men, even though Black men date interracially more often than Black women. Just wondering if their bias is influencing the lack of romance shown this season.

No. They're writers, not showrunners, co-creators, or EPs. They have no power over the writing. When they write scripts, it gets handed in for approval. So they might do put romance in the script.

[Trini]

37 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

No. They're writers, not showrunners, co-creators, or EPs. They have no power over the writing. When they write scripts, it gets handed in for approval. So they might do put romance in the script.

I agree that they do not have as much power as Helbing, who is the main showrunner; but just for the record, Eric Wallace has an 'executive producer' credit as of Season 5.

[adora721]

When discussing her directing debut in a magazine interview, DP only mentioned that Grant and Carlos, " will really show up for me in a special way." She also gave kudos to Tom for guiding her, but no mention of CP or other cast members she's excited to work with or direct. It's striking, but I do think CP will be professional.

 

[SimoneS]

7 minutes ago, adora721 said:

When discussing her directing debut in a magazine interview, DP only mentioned that Grant and Carlos, " will really show up for me in a special way." She also gave kudos to Tom for guiding her, but no mention of CP or other cast members she's excited to work with or direct. It's striking, but I do think CP will be professional.

So DP omitted; Jesse L Martin, Candice Patton, Danielle Nicolet (they are both besties with Kreisberg so I am surprised she wasn't mentioned), Hartley Sawyer, and Jessica Kennedy Parker. Oh well, I am sure that none of them are crying about it.

[ruby24]

I think it's old news now that Candice and Danielle are downright indifferent to each other. What bothers me is that it appears to have affected Candice's interactions with the rest of the cast too.

[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I think it's old news now that Candice and Danielle are downright indifferent to each other. What bothers me is that it appears to have affected Candice's interactions with the rest of the cast too.

I don't know what you are referring to here, but there have always been rumors about BTS drama that suggested that it was more than people "not getting along." Kreisberg's firing caused more info to come out, confirming that there are issues about race and gender that impacted Candice more than anyone else in the cast.