Lightning Rods: Gender, Race, Homosexuality and Other Sensitive Topics

[Oscirus]

Cisco's comedy relief ( admittedly a bit much), I couldn't see anybody on this show doing so but earlier season Felicity would be likely to comment on a good looking male villain.

 

As to the difference between male and female villains. As of this moment only two ( Queen bee and now trajectory) could be said to be the bosses in their respective crime sprees. Everybody else worked for somebody.

 

Perhaps someone can explain this to me because I don't watch this show, but I find Golden Glider's exclusion from that spinooff,  suspect, especially since she's just as deadly as the male counterparts in her gang

[Chicago Redshirt]

I stand corrected as to female villain's death tolls 

 

Early season Felicity would have had the good sense to be embarrassed to be so shallow after she blurted out that Deathstroke had a nice butt or whatever, if she would do that. Cisco doubles down. I'm surprised he didn't ask for Trajectory's number while she had him at gunpoint.

 

Re: Legends, the guy who brought the team together, Rip Hunter, claimed that he only wanted Cold and took Heat basically because he was there. So no slight on Golden Glider. Personally, it seems like he was fairly random in his choices, since most of his crew essentially should not be using their equipment in the past because things like exoskeletons and heat and cold guns stick out as anachronistic. He should have used operatives who can use their abilities/tools in any era without raising suspicions. 

[KirkB]

You make a good point, Chicago Redshirt. Rip's main motivation, he says, was picking people who had little to no impact on the timeline, so assuming Lisa isn't a big deal in the future he probably would have grabbed her too if she had been in the minivan with Leonard instead of Mick. But from a sneaking around in time point of view Sara, Snart and Stein are the only ones who really seem to be any good with stealth. Ray doesn't know how to do things quietly (though at least he can, and should, carry his suit around with him), Jax isn't particularly subtle, and Mick...well, we see how that turned out. Technically, Kendra is more of a liability than a help since with her along they can never sneak up on Savage.

[Goldmoon]

If you haven't checked out what is going on in Sleepy Hollow, they have just made Abbie into the ultimate sacrificial Magical Negro - UGH!

[phoenics]

If you haven't checked out what is going on in Sleepy Hollow, they have just made Abbie into the ultimate sacrificial Magical Negro - UGH!

Yeah - it makes me terrified for Iris and actually almost to the point of just giving up. All of our discussion, talks, debates, etc., it doesn't matter. Black women are so disrespected in this industry and I'm just exhausted fighting it. It's reality. What's the point of even fighting/squabbling over this? Eventually the networks will all just go back to the (white) status quo and call this "grand diversity experiment" a failure, even if they are the reason it fails (like on SH).

I give up. Racism wins.

Edited April 11, 2016 by phoenics

[quarks]

Not sure why the networks would do that, given that Empire, Scandal and How to Get Away With Murder still get great ratings.  And Flash, with a black lead actress, two additional black supporting actors, and a Hispanic supporting actor, is the CW's most popular show - a pretty strong financial incentive for diversity. 

 

Which isn't to excuse whatever the hell went down on Sleepy Hollow - actually just makes it more inexplicable - or the ongoing casual racism that's still all over the place in Hollywood.  I just don't think we're heading back to all white casts anytime soon. 

[Ruby25]

Yeah, I actually think it's really cool that the CW's highest rated show has a cast where the non-white actors (JLM, CP, KL and CV) outnumber the white regulars (GG, TC and DP). That's true diversity right there.

[driedfruit]

Yeah, I actually think it's really cool that the CW's highest rated show has a cast where the non-white actors (JLM, CP, KL and CV) outnumber the white regulars (GG, TC and DP). That's true diversity right there.

 

What you do with those characters is more important than them just being there though. Out of these main characters which ones have significant roles in the overall story this season? Cisco, Barry, Harry, Caitlin, and Jay. That's 4 white characters to 1 non-white and that's the more important ratio imo. It's nice that Joe/Iris/Wally are there, but when was the last time they were anything but background players? Sleepy Hollow also started out very diverse. Between Orlando, Nicole, John Cho, Nick Gonzalez, Lyndie... But casting poc isn't really indicative of how well you'll treat them. I don't think writers deserve props for diversity unless their poc characters play as equally significant roles as their white counterparts. 

Edited April 12, 2016 by driedfruit

[phoenics]

What you do with those characters is more important than them just being there though. Out of these main characters which ones have significant roles in the overall story this season? Cisco, Barry, Harry, Caitlin, and Jay. That's 4 white characters to 1 non-white and that's the more important ratio imo. It's nice that Joe/Iris/Wally are there, but when was the last time they were anything but background players? Sleepy Hollow also started out very diverse. Between Orlando, Nicole, John Cho, Nick Gonzalez, Lyndie... But casting poc isn't really indicative of how well you'll treat them. I don't think writers deserve props for diversity unless their poc characters play as equally significant roles as their white counterparts. 

 

Exactly.  Racism wins because what we are seeing is mere tokenism.  I'm sick of it.  Worse, Scandal, HTGAWM and Empire all have either deeply flawed black lead characters or deeply problematic (as in stereotypes and tropes galore) black lead characters - which still seems to play into the status quo, imo.  I think once we start seeing a diversity of black leading characters (and other PoC characters) where they clearly aren't a stereotype and clearly show depth in an interesting way (and avoiding being simply terrible people to appease the white gaze), then we'll be getting somewhere.  But we just aren't seeing that.

 

When you look at the fact that CP is the female lead of The Flash, but she's been marginalized pretty much all year while the aforementioned 5 drive the story, that means nothing to me.  I'm seeing almost the same pattern of BS that I saw on Sleepy Hollow S2, just slightly better.  But slightly better isn't good enough anymore.  

Edited April 12, 2016 by phoenics

[zannej]

I live in an area with some pretty extreme racism. It's not as bad as it used to be 15 years ago, but it's still enough to make me cringe. They actually passed a law to specifically target young black males to make an excuse to stop them in public and the police have already killed a man over it-- it was a law banning baggy/sagging pants. People who were deemed to have pants too baggy are supposed to be stopped by police and fined. But they used it as an excuse to arrest a guy and violently manhandle him to the point that he suffered heart failure. They pull people over for driving while black (or sometimes suspicion that the person is black-- because they will see certain types of vehicles and pull someone over thinking the driver is black and then be like "oops, you're not a n*****, you're free to go." It just absolutely disgusts me.

 

I really wish they would give Candice more to do on the show-- and not because of her race, but because the character has such great potential and IMO, Candice is a much better actress than Danielle. Mind you, the latter has improved since the start, but she's still less enjoyable to watch for me. But also, Iris is such an important character in the comic books and she *should* be much more important on this show.

 

As an aside, has anyone seen the old movie Sepia Cinderella? It was made in 1947 and I was one of the rare films to feature a mostly black cast with black leads. Also, for bonus points they had a black woman as the owner/boss of a night club. I hadn't even realized that women were able to own and run nightclubs back then-- but maybe that is because the McCarthy era BS of the 50s really set women (and other groups) back. I really enjoyed the movie.

Edited April 13, 2016 by zannej

[GHScorpiosRule]

This seems to be the right place for this, so here goes.

 

I really, really, and I mean really detest the phrase "casual racism."  Because there is nothing casual about racism. As if there are different levels of it, and one isn't as bad as the other. WTF? It's a copout and makes light of (not really the word, but I can't think what to use) of racism.  Maybe I'm naïve, but I don't think you're born a racist. It's a learned/taught. So when I hear that phrase, as a way to rationalize a character's behavior, it pisses me off. Even if it's something one sees growing up, and one doesn't know better, by the time one is an adult, I'm pretty certain that one can see when it's wrong to judge people based on the color of their skin.

 

Okay, I'll shut up now.

[zannej]

GHScorpiosRule, there actually ARE different levels of racism-- and it's not all black and white (no pun intended).  There is the kind of racism where people are taught that things are a certain way and that different races have "their place" and so forth and they may be uncomfortable when they see someone defy those "rules". There are people who feel uncomfortable but don't ever say anything or treat people differently. There are others who don't realize they are treating people differently. And then you have the blatant bigots who go out of their way to treat people differently. Some people judge others because they have been taught that the "other race" is inherently evil, lazy, bad, <insert negative stereotype> or whatever.

 

Yes, racism and other forms of bigotry are taught-- they often stem from fear and I usually see it tied together with religion. When religion is involved, it's an uphill battle because it is very difficult for people to overcome ingrained teachings. If someone grows up being told something is true and everyone around them seems to reinforce that belief, it can be very hard to break free of it. It's one of the reasons so many older generations are having problems with women's rights and gay rights. Even if they intellectually recognize something is wrong, on a subconscious level, they might still feel the bigotry.

 

Then we get into the vicious cycle of say blacks hating whites because they think all whites are bigots and then the whites hate the blacks because they think all blacks hate whites and so forth. There was (and still is to an extent) some overcompensation in the wrong areas. One side is allowed to verbally denigrate and discriminate against the other and the other side is resentful of that. But rather than just accepting that people are individuals and not everyone of a particular race acts or thinks the same way, some people just unilaterally condemn them all. Now, some is because of bad experiences, some because of being taught bigotry from a very early age, and some because they just haven't actually met and spent enough time with others.

 

There is a black man who singlehandedly closed down a few chapters of the KKK by just talking to clan members, being kind to them, and teaching them that their attitudes were wrong. Dude got invited to a Klan meeting because they thought he was so cool and eventually, through patience and kindness, he got through to them and they disbanded. But he was an exceptional man and not all people can be reached like that. Some people are just dense and set in their ways. They don't know how to think for themselves and only regurgitate the rhetoric that has been spewed at them. Their bigotry comes from supreme ignorance. Lack of education is a huge factor.

 

That said, I don't like the term "casual racism" either.

 

I don't know if we will ever totally eliminate racism or bigotry, but I hope that we can at least make it so people aren't killing each other over it.

[phoenics]

I agree that there is nothing casual about racism.

And I think it's important to understand systemic and institutionalized racism - which is basically the kind that black people face on the regular, is not casual.

What would be an example of "casual racism"?

And honestly - the reason why blacks cannot be racist is because individual racism - when it's perpetuated by a white person - is still part of institutionalized and systemic racism, because the two CANNOT be separated in a society that reinforces the individual racism of white people.  This actually hurts white people as well - because they often cannot see the invisible (to them) fabric of their privilege, which blinds them to their racism.  The institution of racism both perpetuates their individual racism and also blinds them to it.  Double edged sword there.  Doesn't excuse it, but it does explain why many white people are unable to see it.

Blacks, at most, can be prejudiced, but their acts of prejudice don't add up to acts of racism, since there is no power behind it.

I know people like to throw around individual and institutional racism as though they are separate, but they really aren't, which is why casual racism doesn't exist.

Edited April 13, 2016 by phoenics

[zannej]

I disagree that blacks can't be racist. Anyone can be a racist. If someone hates another person and/or discriminates against them solely because of their race, then they are, by definition, a racist.

 

When someone won't serve you food at a kiosk just because of your race, no matter what race they are, they are being racist. When a cab driver refuses to drive you someplace because of your race, it's racism. When a clerk at a store refuses to let you check out at his/her register but takes someone of another race that was in line behind you just because of your race, then it is racism. When you get passed over for a scholarship and it goes to someone with a lower GPA and no involvement in student government just because of race, it is racism. I have experienced all of these things things.

 

Do white people typically have more privilege in certain areas? Yes. Absolutely. Especially when it comes to crime and the war on drugs and such. The whole war on drugs thing was admittedly started to persecute black voters and it has continued to be used to discriminate against black people. But that does not mean that black people can't be bigots or racists. Just because the majority group has had the backing of the government behind them does not mean that when a black person discriminates against someone of another race that it is any less racist.

 

It is not acceptable for anyone to discriminate against another person based on race, religion, gender, ethnic origin, or sexual orientation. Two wrongs don't make a right. It is just as wrong for a black person to hate a white person as it is for a white person to hate a black person. And that extends to every racial group. People should be treated as individual human beings and not judged by the color of their skin.

 

The more people try to push to have more rights than others or to have another group treated differently solely by race, then the more it will divide people and the slower we will progress toward ending the bigotry and truly having equality.

 

It all starts with treating others with respect and affording them the same considerations we would want them to afford us.

 

Whenever we afford someone more rights than another, it leads to hostility. And I realize, that the intent is to give a leg up to the underprivileged, but it ends up doing harm and giving fuel to the fire of the bigots. People should be treated equally regardless of their appearance.

 

I know that is easier said than done, but whenever the scales tip too far in one direction, they end up tipping back too far in another.

 

It's an ugly vicious cycle.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I disagree that blacks can't be racist. Anyone can be a racist. If someone hates another person and/or discriminates against them solely because of their race, then they are, by definition, a racist.

 

When someone won't serve you food at a kiosk just because of your race, no matter what race they are, they are being racist. When a cab driver refuses to drive you someplace because of your race, it's racism. When a clerk at a store refuses to let you check out at his/her register but takes someone of another race that was in line behind you just because of your race, then it is racism. When you get passed over for a scholarship and it goes to someone with a lower GPA and no involvement in student government just because of race, it is racism. I have experienced all of these things things.

 

Do white people typically have more privilege in certain areas? Yes. Absolutely. Especially when it comes to crime and the war on drugs and such. The whole war on drugs thing was admittedly started to persecute black voters and it has continued to be used to discriminate against black people. But that does not mean that black people can't be bigots or racists. Just because the majority group has had the backing of the government behind them does not mean that when a black person discriminates against someone of another race that it is any less racist.

 

It is not acceptable for anyone to discriminate against another person based on race, religion, gender, ethnic origin, or sexual orientation. Two wrongs don't make a right. It is just as wrong for a black person to hate a white person as it is for a white person to hate a black person. And that extends to every racial group. People should be treated as individual human beings and not judged by the color of their skin.

 

The more people try to push to have more rights than others or to have another group treated differently solely by race, then the more it will divide people and the slower we will progress toward ending the bigotry and truly having equality.

 

It all starts with treating others with respect and affording them the same considerations we would want them to afford us.

 

Whenever we afford someone more rights than another, it leads to hostility. And I realize, that the intent is to give a leg up to the underprivileged, but it ends up doing harm and giving fuel to the fire of the bigots. People should be treated equally regardless of their appearance.

 

I know that is easier said than done, but whenever the scales tip too far in one direction, they end up tipping back too far in another.

 

It's an ugly vicious cycle.

 

 

Thank you! I didn't know how to respond to phoenics post above about how Blacks can't be racist because of my own experiences. I am East Indian, and when I was in elementary school, was bullied by the black kids. I don't know why.  Just one example, when our class was going to do a "modern" take on Cinderella, the teacher chose me, and all, and I mean ALL of the black girls revolted, saying I shouldn't get to play her because, well, of my race.

 

And I'm sorry I wasn't clear when I said how there shouldn't be different levels of racism. Of course there are. My thing was that the phrase "casual racism" makes it seem that that sort of racism (era person grew up in, harmless, joking, etc.) is "lesser" and "not as bad" which is what I take issue with. And now I've heard everything. On The Daily Show with Trevor Noah on Tuesday, there is now...sexual racism.

 

The premise and arguments of that, well, I just don't agree with them. It's like saying I'm a racist because I don't date Black men. To be honest, I find a LOT of men of different races attractive, hot, sexy...not just celebrities, but I've never, in all my life, been attracted to some of them. I don't think that makes me racist. And I did go out with them, and...nothing. No spark, no chemistry, nada.  I resent the implication that I'm a closet racist/racist and just don't know it because of the kinds of men I am attracted to.  Hell, after my nightmare of a marriage (which was arranged many moons ago), was annulled, I told my parents that IF I ever got married again, it would be to a WHITE MAN.  I refused to date any Indian men for years after that. Or even consider it because of it.  That was the absolute worst for them. Back then. Because of our country's history with the Brits.  It took a LONG while for me to heal.

 

But thanks for the explanation/clarification. I really appreciate it. Sometimes when I think I know everything there is to know about a subject, I find I don't and learn something new every day!

[phoenics]

This is a long topic and debate - I won't go into it further, but sociologists have long studied racism and pretty much all agree that blacks don't have the institutional power to be racist.

They can be prejudiced and act on that prejudice in discriminatory ways, but racism requires a power structure they don't have.

It doesn't really matter in the end, except to try to equalize something which isn't equal. And INDIVIDUAL experiences with prejudice (sorry, but black girls are ALWAYS left out at the gate and if you were selected for Cinderella BECAUSE you were East Indian and considered "better" than they were, then that's real and that has consequences. A reaction to internalized racism is still not racism). That doesn't make what the girls did right - but IF you got the part only due to internalized racism, then all of you were victims in this case. If you got the part fair and square and it had NOTHING to do with colorism or internalized racism, great - but it still doesn't erase how black girls are treated as less than in comparison to all races. Look at Sleepy Hollow and Jenny vs Abbie for a lesson in colorism. So, still not right, but it's prejudice, not racism. Or more accurately, jealousy born out of imposed colorism/oppression where their beauty is consistently devalued in favor of more "white" appearing people. It's still a response to a system of oppression rather than an assertion of their own power (they had none). I don't mean to minimize your experience, which I'm sure was awful, but to put it into perspective regarding the larger racial conversation.

What I'm trying to say is that racism is the combination of individual AND institutionalized acts of racism. Those ONLY exist if the perpetrator is white. And in some instances you can have minority AGENTS of that racism, but since they themselves do not benefit from the structural racism, and are simply REACTING to that racism, it's simply not the same thing.

To imply that blacks can be racist is simply wrong BECAUSE it's placing the onus on the individual, when that's not the power of racism. Individual acts of prejudice aren't really the issue. The real issue is when those individual acts are codified, ratified and upheld by the structural/institutional racism. And the ONLY people in the USA who have that "support" are white people.

From a sociological perspective, racism isn't simply individual. It requires institutional power. Not just power to act, but institutional power to act, condone and ratify to the point where the racist act becomes invisible to those not experiencing it.

You cannot separate the two.

There is prejudice, there is discrimination and there is racism. There really is a difference.

If another member of another oppressed group does something to me based on my skin, I do NOT consider them racist. I consider them agents of a racist society, but not racist themselves, since their actions toward me are coming from a place of oppressive racial hierarchy. A reaction to a white supremacist system, however ugly, is not the same as racism. The two are NOT equivalent.

I'm going to have to look up "sexual racism".

This article explains racism vs prejudice better than I can. I think the underlying desire to paint blacks as racists completely undermines the terrible and overwhelming truth of racism as being Individual+Institutional. When you try to equate blacks being prejudice with racism backed by powerful institutions that perpetuate the oppression, you're minimizing the racism faced by blacks (and equating it only with individual acts, when that's not the case at all).

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/reverse-racism-isnt-a-thing_us_55d60a91e4b07addcb45da97

Edited April 14, 2016 by phoenics

[GHScorpiosRule]

Actually, I got the part because the teacher picked my name out from a jar; just like a drawing or raffle. Had nothing to do with my being East Indian at all.

[phoenics]

Actually, I got the part because the teacher picked my name out from a jar; just like a drawing or raffle. Had nothing to do with my being East Indian at all.

Understood. The reaction was still about their own feelings concerning a society that still privileges you over them in a typical sense. I was aware at a very young age of the "totem pole" that put black girls on the bottom and other girls, trending up to who looked the whitest, at the top. It's not racism, it's a response to oppression over all. No, still not right that they treated you that way - but that was prejudice, for reasons I've already stated (and the source I posted probably says it better than I can).

At this point it doesn't matter - the behavior was still ugly, you still were hurt, so it's not right. But I think the word "racism" has been overloaded with meaning that really is supposed to be reserved for "prejudice" or "bigotry" and these words ARE different.

[zannej]

I think we will have to agree to disagree about what constitutes racism. I view prejudice against anyone because of race as racism. It doesn't matter if they have an institution behind them or not. Hate is hate and no amount of semantics will make it any more or less acceptable or right.

 

I can understand black people who have had negative experiences with whites being wary. I can understand being fearful or distrustful of police when statistically they are much more likely to go after minorities. But I disagree with it being ok for one group to spew racist rhetoric and just generalize about ALL people of a particular race or religion. It is not ok for the abused to become the abuser nor the oppressed to become the oppressor-- because when that happens, they become just as bad as the people they hate.

 

 

I also think that the media doesn't help matters much. They try to inflate things and make things sound worse- over-reporting on some things and completely omitting others. Like, how often do you hear about the plight of the Dinka tribes? Or about how the Belgians turned two tribes against one another deliberately so they are constantly killing one another. Or do they talk about the violence against Native Americans? Native Americans are the most likely to be killed by police.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/24/opinion/moya-smith-native-americans/

 

Anyway, have you heard much about internalized racism, phoenics? it was a concept I hadn't heard about until recent years-- where people feel that their own race is inferior to others and they feel trapped in poverty or doomed to never amount to anything and are ashamed of being that race because they have been taught that another race is superior. It is incredibly saddening.

 

I don't think anyone should ever be made to feel ashamed of being born of any particular race, gender, or sexual orientation. On the flipside, I don't think anyone should ever be taught to feel superior to others or think that they deserve more rights or privileges than others because of those factors. But, that is going to take a very long time to change.

[phoenics]

I think we will have to agree to disagree about what constitutes racism. I view prejudice against anyone because of race as racism. It doesn't matter if they have an institution behind them or not. Hate is hate and no amount of semantics will make it any more or less acceptable or right.

I wasn't arguing any differently - however I do want to say that the idea that "if it doesn't have an institution behind it" it's still "racism"  undercuts the seriousness of racism as individual+institutional. It's different and that's why the words describing the reality should be different.

 

It doesn't mean racial prejudice is better than racism or that black people are better than white people, which is often how I think some people take it.

As someone who personally has to deal with racial acts that are always individual+institutional (there is no other way for me as a black woman to experience this), the definition of the term does matter very much to me and seeing it conflated with lesser definitions is vexing. So yes, we will have to agree to disagree. 

 

I can understand black people who have had negative experiences with whites being wary. I can understand being fearful or distrustful of police when statistically they are much more likely to go after minorities. But I disagree with it being ok for one group to spew racist rhetoric and just generalize about ALL people of a particular race or religion. It is not ok for the abused to become the abuser nor the oppressed to become the oppressor-- because when that happens, they become just as bad as the people they hate.

No one said it was okay. Just because we might call it racial prejudice vs racism doesn't make one right. It just makes one carry more WEIGHT and IMPACT in a person's life. Often when I hear people counter with the "but black people can be racist!" argument, I wonder if what is really being argued is: "but black people are just as bad!" when that's not the point. Racial prejudice IS STILL BAD. It's NOT okay - however, it's NOT the same as the "abused becoming the abuser" because they are STILL ABUSED by an oppressive institution that still exists today - so much so that other races actively join in. Even if those races are also oppressed themselves.  That's how POWERFUL the institution of racism is in this country.  That's why the argument of institutional+individual=racism exists as a construct that you cannot break down like the atom.  The two always go together when it's perpetuated against black people.  It cannot go the other direction.  It's impossible. 

 

I also think that the media doesn't help matters much. They try to inflate things and make things sound worse- over-reporting on some things and completely omitting others. Like, how often do you hear about the plight of the Dinka tribes? Or about how the Belgians turned two tribes against one another deliberately so they are constantly killing one another. Or do they talk about the violence against Native Americans? Native Americans are the most likely to be killed by police.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/24/opinion/moya-smith-native-americans/

While I'm sure the media sensationalizes racial issues for clickbait - it does not create them.

Native Americans are one of the most marginalized groups - I'm always sensitive to issues that affect them because I consider them some of the initial victims of a white supremacist society.  As for the Dinkas and Belgians - since those are outside of the U.S., I don't think it's relevant when discussing what the American media does with racial issues? The history of race in America has its own circumstances.

 

Anyway, have you heard much about internalized racism, phoenics? it was a concept I hadn't heard about until recent years-- where people feel that their own race is inferior to others and they feel trapped in poverty or doomed to never amount to anything and are ashamed of being that race because they have been taught that another race is superior. It is incredibly saddening.

Yes I've heard of internalized racism - I'm black, it's a fact of life in the black community, which has received (untrue) messages of inferiority since slavery and eventually absorbed those messages as true even if they aren't true. That's where colorism and self-hatred comes from and that's where some concepts of people acting like being educated is "acting white". And often times, many who are steeped in self-hatred, don't even understand that that's what they are doing.  I grew up being told I had "good hair" and it wasn't until I was a little older that I understood that "good hair" simply meant "closer to white" hair.

 

But as I'm not one to look at the result of over 400 years of slavery and anti-black conditioning and blame the victimized group, I KNOW where that mindset came from and why. I KNOW that it being ILLEGAL for slaves to learn to read and write led to that being a "white activity", and that got passed down as a matter of survival over the years until it spiraled into what we see today.  The whole hair thing emerged because the whiter you looked, the better you were treated... and some people were able to "pass" as white and escape discrimination altogether.  But the issue isn't how a marginalized group responded to oppressive and racist conditioning.  The issue is how to fight back against the negative conditioning and completely dismantle systems of racism that exist as institutions. 

 

Would I like it to be better? Yes of course. And that's why I volunteer - to try to counteract the negative messages that society keeps feeding the black community about themselves. As a black female PhD (in Computing) with a dad who has a PhD and a sister who has one (and several other family members), I'm in a good position to be a great example to people and to stand up to those stereotypes and say NO. Not true. You CAN do it. And NO - you do NOT have to absorb what this racist society wants you to believe about yourself. It's why I fight so hard for the image of Iris West as a black woman - and for Candice Patton because I know how this can lead to young girls seeing how she's treated (huge worry of mine right now with Sleepy Hollow and what they did to Abbie).

 

I don't think anyone should ever be made to feel ashamed of being born of any particular race, gender, or sexual orientation. On the flipside, I don't think anyone should ever be taught to feel superior to others or think that they deserve more rights or privileges than others because of those factors. But, that is going to take a very long time to change.

I agree it will take a while to change. I'm still disheartened about the Sleepy Hollow thing, so I feel more hopeless right now... waiting to get my fighting spirit back, :)

[zannej]

Ahh. Ok. I get the distinction you were making between racial prejudice and racism now.

 

The reason I brought up the media not talking about the Dinkas and such is because usually when something horrible happens to white people in other countries, the newsmedia is all over it-- but they don't even mention what happens to black tribes.

 

I'm more aware of it because my father spent the last few months of his service in INS working asylum cases in Egypt. He was meeting and interviewing people who had been "lost boys"-- people who had been enslaved in the middle east and African nations (because there are still forms of slavery there), and/or had to flee their homes. Many had lost their entire families to massacres, and quite a number of them had been tortured. Others were sick and couldn't afford medicine. It was such a sad situation. Mercenaries working for diamond mine owners would go into the villages, kill the adults, abduct the children to use as slave labor in the mines, and mutilate people (cutting off arms) to prevent theft or sometimes just for fun (because they enjoyed exerting their power and making others suffer). These things still happen-- which is why I prefer manufactured diamonds over naturally mined ones. The good thing was that he was able to help a lot of them get asylum and helped the ones who were ill get free medical care.

 

It bothers me that people in the US are more likely to care what Kim Kardashian is wearing than give a rat's ass about thousands of people suffering and dying. Part of that may be because some people want to shut it out as not their own problems and celebrity gossip is more mindless and not quite as sad.

 

I'm part Native American (Lenape tribe of the Delaware nation), so issues involving native Americans are close to my heart.

 

You reminded me of something we discussed in sociology class about how things teachers say and do can subconsciously affect children. Calling someone a girl as an insult made girls feel less valued and inferior. They would do fine on tests and such when not introduced to prejudices-- but if a teacher suggested that girls were not as good at math as boys, they found that the girls started to do worse. Same thing with black students. If it was implied that whites were smarter, the black students would start to do worse because they became self-conscious. That internalized racism is just not as funny as in Dave Chapelle's "black white supremacist" skit (which, IMO, is absolutely hilarious). When I was going to school here in the 80s, the school was still segregating students. All of the black students were automatically lumped together in the "dumb" classes and the white students were put in the "smarter" groups. That always pissed me off. The practice continued in to the 90s. I don't know if they still do it today-- but I suspect they do.

 

I'm very glad that you were able to rise up and fight the odds. It is so sad when I see people who feel they can't accomplish things because the odds are stacked against them. I wish everyone had a fair shot.

 

Btw, have you read much about Paul Robeson? He's someone I wish I could have met and talked to because he was an amazing man.

 

I never watched the Sleepy Hollow program.

 

Speaking of other TV programs, I watched the most recent LOT episode and I've noticed that they seem to try to ignore racial issues. Like they had Jax go into a saloon in the 1870s and nobody seemed to bat an eye. They also had Sarah in pants, which I believe was a big no no back then as well. I don't want them to be hamfisted about it, but it would be nice if they at least acknowledged how bad things were back then and show how far we've come-- even if we still haven't come far enough.

[phoenics]

About LoT and Flash (mostly - except for the White Shadow thing) ignoring race: sometimes when you have shows with non-black show runners and writers, they try to ignore race and be "race neutral". I tend to think that's what makes THEM feel comfortable, even though it actually means their writing takes a LOT of suspension of disbelief to watch. One thing SH got right in S1 was that they didn't ignore race and often contrasted it with beliefs about our Founding Fathers, etc.. good stuff back then.

But on the other hand, sometimes the "ignore race" thing can be partly a relief when watching tv - an escape if you will - from what we live in life. The problem comes when the writers refuse to mention race, but their writing and treatment of characters is steeped in racial bags of tropes or if they continue a vexing trend, like the marginalization and subjugation of black female characters as less important to the narrative compared to the white female, etc.. or white male, or black male, etc.. or even white females dying for white male man-pain, etc..

Then there is no escape. They really need to give Iris a PoV. It's vexing that we only get glimpses of that when it becomes pertinent to the white male lead. BAD! I need these writers to go watch Daredevil. The blond girl (I keep forgetting her name because I wasn't a huge DD fan growing up) does more "investigative journalism" that's SHOWN on air (and eventually ties into the main plot) than Iris! And we get a PoV from her far more. It's just vexing why these writers refuse to give Iris more of a PoV and tie her into the main plot. It shouldn't be hard.

Ahh. Ok. I get the distinction you were making between racial prejudice and racism now.

Yay! I'm so glad I managed to get that point across. It's such a difficult topic, I realize that. I've tried to explain this to so many people in the past and never really have been able to articulate it well enough.

The reason I brought up the media not talking about the Dinkas and such is because usually when something horrible happens to white people in other countries, the newsmedia is all over it-- but they don't even mention what happens to black tribes.

Yeah - I noticed this too. It's kind of what happened when Isis murdered about 150 students at a university in Somalia (I think it was there, I may need to go look this up), about a month before the Hebdo incident happened in Paris, but the outcry for Paris was explosive and ongoing for months whereas the situation in Somalia was barely mentioned. It can mess with your mind and it still sends the signal that some bodies are valued more than others.

 

I'm more aware of it because my father spent the last few months of his service in INS working asylum cases in Egypt. He was meeting and interviewing people who had been "lost boys"-- people who had been enslaved in the middle east and African nations (because there are still forms of slavery there), and/or had to flee their homes. Many had lost their entire families to massacres, and quite a number of them had been tortured. Others were sick and couldn't afford medicine. It was such a sad situation. Mercenaries working for diamond mine owners would go into the villages, kill the adults, abduct the children to use as slave labor in the mines, and mutilate people (cutting off arms) to prevent theft or sometimes just for fun (because they enjoyed exerting their power and making others suffer). These things still happen-- which is why I prefer manufactured diamonds over naturally mined ones. The good thing was that he was able to help a lot of them get asylum and helped the ones who were ill get free medical care.

Wow - see this is why conflict diamonds are so bad.

It bothers me that people in the US are more likely to care what Kim Kardashian is wearing than give a rat's ass about thousands of people suffering and dying. Part of that may be because some people want to shut it out as not their own problems and celebrity gossip is more mindless and not quite as sad.

I agree! I tend to think we're a lot more like Panem's The Capitol more than we think.

I'm part Native American (Lenape tribe of the Delaware nation), so issues involving native Americans are close to my heart.

I understand. I am part Cherokee - my great grandmother was 100% Cherokee, but I admit that I don't have a lot of connection to that part of my history. The situation for Native Americans grieves me. Especially since all they got in the end was the worst land the country had to offer and now many reservations have succumbed to societal ills from commercial entities (bars, etc.) and things like alocoholism, etc skyrocketed once commercial interests began ravaging some of the reservations. Capitalism can be evil. It's similar in some black communities ... an over abundance of liquor stores, etc.. pretty much beckoning an already depressed people to their doom. :(

 

You reminded me of something we discussed in sociology class about how things teachers say and do can subconsciously affect children. Calling someone a girl as an insult made girls feel less valued and inferior. They would do fine on tests and such when not introduced to prejudices-- but if a teacher suggested that girls were not as good at math as boys, they found that the girls started to do worse. Same thing with black students. If it was implied that whites were smarter, the black students would start to do worse because they became self-conscious. That internalized racism is just not as funny as in Dave Chapelle's "black white supremacist" skit (which, IMO, is absolutely hilarious). When I was going to school here in the 80s, the school was still segregating students. All of the black students were automatically lumped together in the "dumb" classes and the white students were put in the "smarter" groups. That always pissed me off. The practice continued in to the 90s. I don't know if they still do it today-- but I suspect they do.

This is how my school was - my parents had to fight against it. But dad was a professor with a somewhat flexible schedule so he could come up to the school and wreck shop. Some of the other (deserving) kids had parents who couldn't do that. It was vexing. I remember scoring over 100 (102) on one of the Academically Gifted entrance tests and the scorer docked it by ten because she couldn't believe the score could be over a 100. I forgot why I could get over 100, but my score really was 102. The cutoff was 93 though, so when she (wrongly) docked me by 10, she denied me entrance. When they realized the mistake was made (after my dad went up to the school again), they said the deadline had passed so I'd have to wait. My parents raised HELL. And probably the ONLY reason I got in was because my mom was a respected teacher and had been for years by that point and knew the school board, superintendent and everyone. So the school forced the teacher to back down (the one trying to deny me entrance).

That teacher and I had a rocky relationship from then on. I mean - I tried her nerves EVERY DAY. I challenged her on racial issues CONSTANTLY - I was a handful. But she "woke" me up by being so adamant about me joining the class that I side eyed her forever and refused to back down on racial issues. But I was also the best student in the class - so ... she loved me eventually. And now her son and my sister are best friends. Go figure.

But she often tells my sister that I opened her eyes on many an issue that she'd been blind to in the past so... I had lots of gumption back then.

I'm very glad that you were able to rise up and fight the odds. It is so sad when I see people who feel they can't accomplish things because the odds are stacked against them. I wish everyone had a fair shot.

Well - I was privileged in that I had a dad and aunt with Phds in my field. It still wasn't easy, but I recognize it was easier for me than for black girls who had no family folks who did it before them to look up to.

[Ruby25]

I actually wouldn't mind it if they acknowledged sometime, maybe when Barry and Iris are finally together, that they're an interracial couple. I think you're right about white writers wanting to remain race neutral, and sometimes it's a good thing. I like that Barry's family unit is this loving, interracial one and is shown to be so strong and everything.

 

But maybe someone else can just acknowledge it with one comment or something down the line. I think in real life somebody would probably make some reference to it, just to acknowledge it.

[Oscirus]

African Americans and any other race out there has the ability to be racist. To exclude any race from being able to have such a distinction because they're not in power or in other words perpetual victims/ underdogs or however one wants to word it is ironically enough racist.

 

Iris's problem has little to do with being black and plenty do with suffering from the "useless woman" syndrome.  Look at the other woman on this show. Caitlin has been in on Barry's secret since the very beginning, yet if she were to die in the next episode, her death would have little to no effect on team flash other then to make the team really sad/ mad. The fact that they can't find a better use for her on the show is down right pathetic.  Then there's Patty. I realize most people don't like her, but ignore the dislike for a minute to see how she was treated.  She's supposed to be Joe's partner on the meta human task force yet he always kept her in the dark. Also, Barry decided to keep his "Flash" secret from her because he didn't want the woman on the meta human taskforce to be in danger from any future meta humans.

 

Basically the women on this show are treated as helpless human beings who have to rely on their male counter parts to care for them. make their decisions for them or even just to save them from the trouble they'll inevitably fall into. This show is just better then most at hiding it's misogyny under a ton of special effects.

[zannej]

Phoenics, I'm very glad that your parents were able to fight for you to get in to the gifted classes. Some parents just don't have time for that, and I think that is a huge problem. Especially since starting students out in the "lower" groups make them feel like they will never be able to succeed. They don't have enough motivation. I still remember hearing teachers shouting at the students and telling them how stupid they were. It always made me mad.

 

My father had to fight to get me into the gifted program because we had moved from California and the locals didn't like "yankees". I don't remember the test scores, but the rules said that in order to get in to the gifted classes I had to score high enough OR have a letter of recommendation from a teacher. I scored high enough but they initially rejected me because there was no letter of recommendation. My father had to go all the way to the school board and explain what "qualifiers" were and that "and" was not the same as "or". So I got in. It really helped me a lot, because I was extremely bored in the other classes and felt stifled.

 

I'm glad that you were able to get through to the teacher. I saw so many students being mistreated by teachers-- down here the teachers would just paddle any students that gave them trouble (corporal punishment is not only allowed here, but they have liability immunity so they can't be sued or criminally prosecuted for abuse). Disagreeing with a teacher was just seen as disrespectful. Most of the teachers just wanted the students to be quiet and do what they were told. There was rarely any room for actual discussion. Which is why I'm glad that I moved when I did so I could go to a much better school overseas.

 

My sister recently shared an article on Facebook about how white and Asian students are far more likely to be picked for gifted classes than blacks and Hispanics. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/10/upshot/why-talented-black-and-hispanic-students-can-go-undiscovered.html

Stuff like that boils my blood.

 

Education is such a key factor and it is not always easy to overcome those circumstances. With the way some students are treated in class, I can understand why they feel it is a burden rather than a privilege.

 

On to the treatment of women, I'm not terribly surprised about it happening in a TV show based on a comic book because female characters have notoriously been treated as lesser because the target audience was male. I can't remember which animated series it was-- but it was based off of a comic book-- and they canceled it because it was more popular with female audiences than male. Their claim was that females didn't buy the toys and they wanted to market toys. Man, they must never have looked at my toy collection... But, it's similar to the whole thing where they want to exclude women in the science and computer fields. They forget that the earliest game programmers were women. Hell, I know that at least one of the early programming languages was created by a woman.

 

When I think back to things I wish had happened in season1, I wish we had been able to see Iris interact with Eo/Wells more often. We know how he felt about Barry and Cisco and got some hints of how he felt about Joe. We sort of got how he might have felt about Caitlin, although some of the scenes ended up deleted. But I don't think we ever got any hints about how he felt about Iris. I'd like to think that he actually liked her-- which may have been part of why he called on her at the press conference, but he might have assumed that she was going to ask him a "softer" question because he saved Barry's life. And I don't think we ever got to see much about what Iris thought or felt about Dr. Wells.

[phoenics]

African Americans and any other race out there has the ability to be racist. To exclude any race from being able to have such a distinction because they're not in power or in other words perpetual victims/ underdogs or however one wants to word it is ironically enough racist.

No it's not racist. And this isn't about "excluding" a race like this is some kind of club. No, it's just about making sure the true power of racism isn't minimized by comparing it to something that's not the same. 1+1 does not equal 1, but that's essentially what is being argued when one claims individual+institutional = individual because it does not.

Blacks - and other oppressed groups - cannot be racist because racism needs a system of power in order to have teeth. Racial prejudice? Yes, everyone is capable of that. But not racism, because that MUST have institutional power.

Claiming it goes both ways minimizes the racism faced by oppressed groups in the US.

 

Iris's problem has little to do with being black and plenty do with suffering from the "useless woman" syndrome.

Intersectionality is a thing. She can suffer from sexism and racism. And often intersectionality means the effects of both are worse and more than each individually. Wasn't there an actress recently who seemed to forget that women "came in black" while she was ranting about how easy black folks had it in Hollywood, while it was REALLY hard for women? Same concept here. Both can be in play for/against Iris.

 

Look at the other woman on this show. Caitlin has been in on Barry's secret since the very beginning, yet if she were to die in the next episode, her death would have little to no effect on team flash other then to make the team really sad/ mad. The fact that they can't find a better use for her on the show is down right pathetic.  Then there's Patty. I realize most people don't like her, but ignore the dislike for a minute to see how she was treated.  She's supposed to be Joe's partner on the meta human task force yet he always kept her in the dark. Also, Barry decided to keep his "Flash" secret from her because he didn't want the woman on the meta human taskforce to be in danger from any future meta humans.

 

Basically the women on this show are treated as helpless human beings who have to rely on their male counter parts to care for them. make their decisions for them or even just to save them from the trouble they'll inevitably fall into. This show is just better then most at hiding it's misogyny under a ton of special effects.

Meh - I think the show is trying to show the women as bad-asses in terms of not being helpless. They've shown Iris as anything but helpless since S1.

But where the show fails is in giving the women (specifically Iris) a PoV. Both Caitlin (not the female lead) and Patty (just a guest star) got far more PoV than Iris (the actual female lead as billed) - that's where the fishiness comes into play. It may be unconscious racism/racial bias on the part of the writers, but it's sadly there. It even comes through in how the Flash PR team creates promos. Even in heavy Iris episodes, she's left out of promos. We saw the SAME kind of marginalization of Abbie Mills on Sleepy Hollow - we know what that means.

Patty got PoV in her first episode and then continually as the season 2A wore on. Caitlin got to give her PoV on mourning the same man TWICE - or was it three times? But Iris got half a second to look sadly as a picture? And only in this last episode does she get anything else? WTF? But no racism? That's just BS. Sorry - it's BS.

Edited April 21, 2016 by phoenics

[zannej]

I do wonder if some of the discrimination has more to do with the producer's relationship or ability to relate to certain actresses/characters. I don't know for certain, but I've heard they are good buddies with Danielle so I think they show her favoritism. And while from everything I've heard she's an incredibly sweet person, I've found her to be the weakest actress on the show. Not even so much that she isn't capable of doing good acting, but because of the choices she makes in how to react/portray certain emotions. It's far more suited to a straight up comedy show and seems out of place on this show.

 

I don't know why they gave so much to Patty-- although, while they were trying to write her as a strong woman, they ended up making her more of a man's fantasy trope of a strong woman rather than a woman who actually had her act together. A truly strong woman would not have had time for Barry's bullshit. She would have had enough self-confidence to say "I don't need someone who lies to me and treats me like a doormat" much earlier on. Hell, the way she chased him in the first place seemed a bit humiliating to me. It bugged the hell out of me that they had her asking Barry to help her with something that she really didn't need help with. It would have been better if they'd had her just straight up ask him out for a date instead of making a fool of herself. But, a lot of the male viewers/readers of stuff like this feel threatened by women who are confident and know what they want, so they made her more like a wish fulfillment of insecure boys.

 

Sometimes I wonder if maybe it is possible that Iris would be getting sidelined so much if she were white simply because the writers don't know what to do with the character how is meant to be the love of Barry's life, but then I can't help but think they might be able to find more for her if she were white. Like, they already can't relate to women that well, but they can relate to white people, so a black woman is completely alien.

 

It reminds me a bit of how Dr. Reid on Criminal Minds started getting really shafted when the old showrunner left and it was taken over by an insecure petty woman (I won't get into the details here). Half of the writers left and none of the remaining ones actually knew how to write for a genius character. The showrunner's interviews showed that she had no connection to nor fondness of the character. So he started being used less and less and when he was used, it was to spout random "facts" they got off of wikipedia and they didn't bother to actually fact-check. They've pretty much ruined the character-- but they ruined a lot of the characters because they dumbed the show down a lot.

 

I really hope that they get someone on their writing staff who can do justice to Iris.

[Ruby25]

I actually disagree that they've given Caitlin a lot, especially this season. She has by far turned into the most useless character on the show. It's so obvious to me they can't think of anything to do with her besides attach her to a guy, and even if they do like DP in real life, that doesn't seem to be benefiting her role/screentime this season.

 

Aside from turning her into KF (which seems like it's not gonna happen on E1 anyway), I have no idea what they'll do with her when this Zoom stuff is over with. She's a primary candidate to get Laurel'd, imo.

 

Iris doesn't have that problem, imo. She was sidelined for Patty in the first part of the season, but I always had a feeling that was going to happen when they said they were bringing in a new love interest for Barry. Once she left though, Iris's screentime magically increased. They really just don't know how to balance female characters who aren't going to be tied to the main male character in some way.

 

I thought Patty was written badly and was a waste of time from the start. I maintain they just wanted to make sure that Barry had some "experience" before he and Iris finally happen. But the whole thing was bleh. And let's be honest, the minute Patty left, the show got better, lol. And she left no lasting impact on the story or anything either! It might as well be like she never existed, for how much impact that character had. It's kind of inexplicable in retrospect.

 

I think Iris has had much better material in the second half and she's definitely more important than Caitlin. If their plan is to get Barry and Iris together next season on a permanent basis (that's what I'm really hoping for) I think she's going to have plenty to do for the duration of the show. And I think the show WANTS to do WestAllen justice, from where it seems to be headed.

 

Caitlin though, is increasingly becoming the most expendable regular in the cast. The only thing keeping her tethered is the fact that DP and CP are the only two female regulars, but that could easily change by making Violett Beane a regular, or bringing back Linda, even (assuming they want to get to Linda/Wally eventually). I don't know, I really wouldn't be surprised if something happened with that in the next couple seasons.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Ruby25

[Oscirus]

No it's not racist. And this isn't about "excluding" a race like this is some kind of club. No, it's just about making sure the true power of racism isn't minimized by comparing it to something that's not the same. 1+1 does not equal 1, but that's essentially what is being argued when one claims individual+institutional = individual because it does not.

Blacks - and other oppressed groups - cannot be racist because racism needs a system of power in order to have teeth. Racial prejudice? Yes, everyone is capable of that. But not racism, because that MUST have institutional power.

Claiming it goes both ways minimizes the racism faced by oppressed groups in the US.

 

Yes it is. Not all blacks have been oppressed, hell some have been oppressors. To think that all members of any group share the same mindset due to the experiences of others in their group is seriously misguided. Maybe if you want to break it down to an individual level, you might have a point but to say blacks in general can't be racist due to institutional oppression is way too broad of a statement.

 

Intersectionality is a thing. She can suffer from sexism and racism. Wasn't there an actress recently who seemed to forget that women "came in black" while she was ranting about how easy black folks had it in Hollywood, while it was REALLY hard for women? Same concept here. Both can be in play for/against Iris.

 

 

If that's the case then why aren't Joe and Cisco suffering from the same problems?  They're both minorities yet they're fairly well written.

 

But where the show fails is in giving the women (specifically Iris) a PoV. Both Caitlin (not the female lead) and Patty (just a guest star) got far more PoV than Iris (the actual female lead as billed) - that's where the fishiness comes into play. It may be unconscious racism/racial bias on the part of the writers, but it's sadly there. It even comes through in how the Flash PR team creates promos. Even in heavy Iris episodes, she's left out of promos. We saw the SAME kind of marginalization of Abbie Mills on Sleepy Hollow - we know what that means.

 

1. Iris is the head love interest. The only lead on the show is Barry. 

2. The only time that Caitlin or Patty were given a pov was to feed into their male counterparts stories.  Patty was basically inserted in this season for Barry to hit and quit and the only reason that Caitlin got over Ronnie so quick was because it gave Zoom someone to become conflicted over. If Scot was involved with the main plot then Iris would've gotten a similar cheap pov but thankfully, that wasn't the case.

 

I've admittedly never seen sleepy hollow so I can't speak for what happened on that show. There might actually be a race problem on that show but on this one that's not the case. I would lean more towards sexism.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Oscirus

[bettername2come]

I agree that the primary issue is in writing for women. They just aren't giving Caitlin and Iris enough to do. And it's a shame because there's a good framework to the characters. Both are intelligent, educated, caring women, who stick up for themselves, call the boys on their shit, are good friends, support each other, feel the desire to help others, and yet both are written with flaws. They don't always make the right choices. Iris can be impulsive and put herself in harm's way for a story or to protect her loved ones. She makes the same kind of misguided, protective secret-keeping choices her father does. Caitlin can be cold and shuts down her emotions and isn't always the best people person in that mode. They are good characters.

 

But Iris gets kept out of the main plot. They don't involve her in enough of the Flash shenanigans when her investigative journalism would be a good resource to tap into. Caitlin gets medical technobabbble and not her own stories; she's just standing there in the background. They both had their partners killed off heroically without seeing much of their emotional recovery from it. 

 

Joe's had his long-lost son storyline. Cisco's had his discovering his powers storyline. Wells has had his rescue his daughter storyline. Barry is the star of the show. Jay and Wally have had little to do, but Jay's lack of story is probably related to his being Zoom and Wally is a new character not integrated into the West family or Flash mission yet.

[Oscirus]

That was a well argued piece where I concede most of your points.

With the exception of this:

 

call the boys on their shit

If Iris did that, Joe wouldn't get away with half the crap he does and Caitlin's not much better in those regards as she only really calls out Cisco now a days. As a matter of fact, it's time to get controversial. Joe needs to go, his character basically negatively affects the growth of most of the characters and offers very little in return. If they concentrated more on incorporating the women and less on incorporating needless father son scenes, I think there'd be a lot of improvement.

 

On a less argumentative, off topic note. I'm kind of excited that "Cloak and Dagger" is coming to TV. Finally a comic interracial relationship that's impossible to screw up.

[phoenics]

Yes it is. Not all blacks have been oppressed, hell some have been oppressors. To think that all members of any group share the same mindset due to the experiences of others in their group is seriously misguided. Maybe if you want to break it down to an individual level, you might have a point but to say blacks in general can't be racist due to institutional oppression is way too broad of a statement.

You're still conflating individual racism with institutional - this discussion won't really proceed further when that's done, so I'm going to leave it here. It would be nice if you'd acknowledge the difference, but it doesn't change the reality.

If that's the case then why aren't Joe and Cisco suffering from the same problems?  They're both minorities yet they're fairly well written.

Intersectionality.

1. Iris is the head love interest. The only lead on the show is Barry.

She's the lead female actress (top billed) on the show. She's not a lead at the same level of Barry (just to be clear that I'm not arguing that). I'm mostly arguing about her treatment vs other women on the show who are white.

2. The only time that Caitlin or Patty were given a pov was to feed into their male counterparts stories.  Patty was basically inserted in this season for Barry to hit and quit and the only reason that Caitlin got over Ronnie so quick was because it gave Zoom someone to become conflicted over. If Scot was involved with the main plot then Iris would've gotten a similar cheap pov but thankfully, that wasn't the case.

This is a fair point - however the issue is still that even when Iris was the main interest in S1 she still wasn't afforded a PoV. That didn't happen with Caitlin and Patty, who have been given multiple PoV opportunities. 

I've admittedly never seen sleepy hollow so I can't speak for what happened on that show. There might actually be a race problem on that show but on this one that's not the case. I would lean more towards sexism.

Disagree that race has no factor on The Flash.

[Whodunnit]

I know I've been waiting to hear Iris say what Iris felt regarding the fate/westallen feels, but I'm still saddened that talking about their love lives was the sole interaction between Caitlin and Iris on this last episode... also, I was happy when Iris came in and said that she was there to help, and disappointed that the only helping she did was to help Caitlin with some vague thing in the medical lab where they had the aforementioned conversation.

Sigh.

[Oscirus]

You're still conflating individual racism with institutional - this discussion won't really proceed further when that's done, so I'm going to leave it here. It would be nice if you'd acknowledge the difference, but it doesn't change the reality.

 

No I'm not, I acknowledge that institutional racism obviously exists. However, since not every black person has experienced it then by your own definition, blacks can be racist. That's all I'm saying.

 

Intersectionality.

 

That doesn't work when no other minority on this show gets such lackluster character development. Only seems to be the women that suffer from this malady.

[benteen]

I know I've been waiting to hear Iris say what Iris felt regarding the fate/westallen feels, but I'm still saddened that talking about their love lives was the sole interaction between Caitlin and Iris on this last episode... also, I was happy when Iris came in and said that she was there to help, and disappointed that the only helping she did was to help Caitlin with some vague thing in the medical lab where they had the aforementioned conversation.

Sigh.

 

It's sad that the only thing the contributed to the episode last night was their love lives.  Keep up the great work with your female characters, writers.

[phoenics]

No I'm not, I acknowledge that institutional racism obviously exists. However, since not every black person has experienced it then by your own definition, blacks can be racist. That's all I'm saying.

When did I say that not every black person has experienced it? I did not say that - if you inferred that from something I wrote, please let me know where so I can clarify more. Furthermore, it's simply untrue. In the USA, every black person is subject to institutional racism, no matter how much class privilege they might have.

That doesn't work when no other minority on this show gets such lackluster character development. Only seems to be the women that suffer from this malady.

But Iris actually already has gotten disparate treatment in comparison to the white female characters on the show. It's taken nearly 2 years to get a real PoV from her about her own feelings? Compared to Patty who got it in her first episode and Caitlin who got it in hers.

Just because you don't see the disparity doesn't mean it's not there.

This conversation is upsetting to me personally - as a black woman - and so I'm not going to try to convince you any longer. I can't run and escape racism no matter what I do and this conversation is veering toward a place that makes me supremely uncomfortable (the whole reverse racism and PROVE it's RACIST! and "saying blacks can't be racist IS RACIST" accusations I'm reading here) and nearly raging mad, so I'm going to bow out now.

I don't have to convince you that racism is a factor on this show - specifically misogynoir - for it to be true. You don't see it? Fine. But I'm not playing this "prove it" game anymore. Much too close to real life for it to be remotely interesting for something that I'd hoped would be an escape.

[driedfruit]

But Iris actually already has gotten disparate treatment in comparison to the white female characters on the show. It's taken nearly 2 years to get a real PoV from her about her own feelings? Compared to Patty who got it in her first episode and Caitlin who got it in hers.

Just because you don't see the disparity doesn't mean it's not there.

I really believe if Iris were white and the actress as generally well received as Candice is (in addition to her character having the biggest fanbase out of the women, being top billed, and playing the most canon relevant female role) she wouldn't be constantly shafted for storylines, pov and screentime to lesser favoured actresses. She hasn't even had a storyline this season as most of whatever happened with Scott was offscreenville and she plays a smaller role in the Wally plot than even Barry. I don't think I've seen a well liked top billed actress treated this badly before. Often lesser like actresses get much more.

Edited April 20, 2016 by driedfruit

[Actionmage]

She hasn't even had a storyline this season as most of whatever happened with Scott was offscreenville and she plays a smaller role in the Wally plot than even Barry.

 

While I agree with the above, that proves that Iris was barely a factor in finding out about her own notdead!Mom, Francine.  Iris found out, barely got any kind of emotion at Joe, forgave Joe, sent off Francine without answers to Wally, off-screen came up with info for Wally, "ironically" kept Wally secret for half a minute, begged forgiveness from Joe for said secret, and stood by Francine's bedside as she was dying.

 

Meanwhile, Joe got to  have confrontations with Francine and tell her to leave Iris alone, try to pay off his ex, exposit all the backstory to Barry and be regretful, beg Iris for forgiveness, find out he had a son, lose the ex he thought he lost 20-odd years ago, and ignore Iris in favor of man-paining about how he hadn't had a chance to be a father to Wally- with Iris and Barry in the room.

 

Barry got to be the sounding board to Joe, sounding board to Iris eventually, and was busy with his own ish during this story.

 

But how many times did we have Joe talk to Iris about Francine vs. Joe talking to Barry about Francine or Wally/"my son"? Joe/Barry, by far, had more screentime than Joe and his own daughter on the subject of his "dead" wife/her "dead" mother!

 

A long way to say: even in stories supposedly about Iris, she doesn't play a major role. 

 

As for the Caitlin= useless, I've carped on for almost two seasons as to how the writers have missed a great chance to have Caitlin ( and Cisco, honestly) deal with professional prejudice due to working with Thawne-Wells and the accelerator project and still working at STAR Labs.  Caitlin trying to get a side gig- the developing Velocity lit a fire for Caitlin to get back into harder research, is talking to Tina McGee and verbalizing why she isn't getting the meetings she used to be able to get. Tina gently informs Dr. Snow that Harrison Wells turned her into an iffy proposition and companies don't want the STAR stink to be associated with them by hiring her. Or something along those lines. It could bring in new nemeses - kind of like Pied Piper/ former coworker- and when Caitlin works on other projects, drama could potentially rise from that. 

 

Posters here have already enumerated the myriad ways Iris could be seamlessly integrated into the actions, so I won't do that here. Needless to say, they are still pretty valid for Season 3. The ladies don't have to be useless. The writers aren't seeming to see the bigger picture.

[zannej]

So, in a bit of real life news: They are going to remove Andrew Jackson's face from the front of the $20 bill and replace it with Harriet Tubman's face. It won't be until at last 2020 though.

[driedfruit]

If that were the case they wouldn't have made the character black to begin with. They could've kept her the white ginger from the comics without much complaint.  Their problem revolves around either not knowing or not caring enough about characters that aren't either super-heroes, villains, love interests or father figures to bother including them in the story.

 

That decision had more to do with casting JLM as Joe West, an actor the producers admit to courting from the very start, and about keeping Wally's skin color same as N52. A compact, black West family doesn't necessarily mean the execs were invested in their black LI. If anything, given how the show was structured to minimize her importance and her and Barry's relationship's importance, it suggests that they were never very interested in her. Perhaps they felt burdened with her, when they preferred to do a knockoff of Olicity (I wouldn't be surprised given how much they like to recycle), something they tried at first convenience, though unsuccessfully. 

[phoenics]

That decision had more to do with casting JLM as Joe West, an actor the producers admit to courting from the very start, and about keeping Wally's skin color same as N52. A compact, black West family doesn't necessarily mean the execs were invested in their black LI. If anything, given how the show was structured to minimize her importance and her and Barry's relationship's importance, it suggests that they were never very interested in her. Perhaps they felt burdened with her, when they preferred to do a knockoff of Olicity (I wouldn't be surprised given how much they like to recycle), something they tried at first convenience, though unsuccessfully. 

 

Exactly.

 

For a significant run of this show, Candice's part seemed to be an ugly example of tokenism... they were fine with using her to up their diversity kudos in the press, but weren't actually doing much of anything with the character and almost seem as though they don't like writing for her.  

[Ruby25]

I'm not sure it's entirely that. I think they'd have an easier time writing for her if she had a different profession. I mean, didn't the E2 episodes kind of show us that? I think if she were a cop, they would likely integrate her into the action a lot more.

 

I honestly think they're hindered by her occupation, and since that's canon they don't think they can change it. But to be honest, this is one canon change that I would support, if it means more for her to do overall. I still think they should consider it.

[bettername2come]

No show's ever had a problem incorporating Lois Lane into the plot. All Iris has to do is investigate dangerous stuff and she's good to go. She figured out burning man was running around last year. She and Mason tipped off Barry to something being off with Wells last year. They can incorporate her into the main action more. They just don't.

[phoenics]

I'm not sure it's entirely that. I think they'd have an easier time writing for her if she had a different profession. I mean, didn't the E2 episodes kind of show us that? I think if she were a cop, they would likely integrate her into the action a lot more.

 

I honestly think they're hindered by her occupation, and since that's canon they don't think they can change it. But to be honest, this is one canon change that I would support, if it means more for her to do overall. I still think they should consider it.

 

As bettername2come said, that was never an issue with Lois Lane.

 

Also - I just finished watching Daredevil and that show was AMAZING in its ability to show the journey of Karen Page becoming a reporter.  It was completely believable, tied into the main plot even if it was Karen's own sub-plot storyline and didn't take away from the male lead doing his own thang.  Just really, really good writing.  They managed that in Season 1 too.

 

No - let's not give these writers excuses.  Even on E2 when Iris was there as a cop - she wasn't necessarily driving plot - and basically they just gave her "Joe" lines, except for a couple of places.  Maybe they just like writing for cops better, but that's just sad.  Writing a reporter storyline should practically write itself.  I don't need to see Iris at CCPN all the time - just show her actually INVESTIGATING.  Half of the metahuman stuff they do on this show, Iris could easily investigate herself.  

 

Next season what they need to do is show Iris investigating something that becomes the season long arc on the show and then eventually it can tie back into the main plot... This show needs a new kind of big bad - like a business mogul who's running Intergang or something - and Iris is investigating the petty crimes they commit until she stumbles across a giant conspiracy that eventually ties into a much bigger bad.  Maybe like Intergang being used to fund a much larger take over the world plot by some group of villains or a big, big bad...

 

This really isn't that hard to write.  They have to WANT to write it.  Instead, this season they gave us a carbon copy of Season 1.  Patty was given Iris' S1 storyline (but with more agency), Caitlin has become Eddie (kidnapped by the villain speedster at the end), Barry is duped yet again by a "hero figure", a figure Barry looks up to is revealed to be the villain (Harrison Wells/Thawne, Zoom/Jay/Hunter)...

 

The Flash has such a deep mythology - they could have spent the season diving into how the speed force works... and how Barry creates it... but noooooo.....

[Actionmage]

This show needs a new kind of big bad - like a business mogul who's running Intergang or something - and Iris is investigating the petty crimes they commit until she stumbles across a giant conspiracy that eventually ties into a much bigger bad.

 

Yep, I floated a potential storyline that could have Iris doing her investigative thing through the sleazy illegal races guy which leads back to a bigger Bad Guy. See? It's not too difficult.  It doesn't have to be Intergang, as I think that could be under the Superman umbrella, but something Intergang-adjacent or a smaller arm of HIVE. Something like that.

 

The writers could even keep Iris' ditched career-track of criminal psychology because it melds with investigative reporter/researcher and person who deals with metahumans . But like Barbie and math, it's too hard. *sigh* (Part of me is hoping  that the writers are actually going to bat with Iris/ WestAllen stories, but they are vetoed. Otherwise, we need new writers.)

[SevenStars]

Yep, I floated a potential storyline that could have Iris doing her investigative thing through the sleazy illegal races guy which leads back to a bigger Bad Guy. See? It's not too difficult. It doesn't have to be Intergang, as I think that could be under the Superman umbrella, but something Intergang-adjacent or a smaller arm of HIVE. Something like that.

The writers could even keep Iris' ditched career-track of criminal psychology because it melds with investigative reporter/researcher and person who deals with metahumans . But like Barbie and math, it's too hard. *sigh* (Part of me is hoping that the writers are actually going to bat with Iris/ WestAllen stories, but they are vetoed. Otherwise, we need new writers.)

This!!! Especially since Iris got the journalist job because she was keeping track of Flash and informing the public. All the writers needed to do was to expand on that and have Iris be investigating any weird/usually thing that might have a metahuman connection. That way she is not only doing her job but also there to help the Flash team with any info they might need or have missed.

[Oscirus]

I honestly think they're hindered by her occupation, and since that's canon they don't think they can change it. But to be honest, this is one canon change that I would support, if it means more for her to do overall. I still think they should consider it.

 

There's nothing canon about this Iris. Other then her occupation and name they fucked her back story up. Her reason for being a reporter changed, her home life changed, hell they couldn't even get her attitude right. I think they just wikied her and inserted her accordingly.

 

If they want to improve Iris they need to stop using her to feed into Joe's a good father storylines and to start building her up as a person as opposed to a love interest that was inserted into the story because they have no choice. Get her out of the lab ( do we really need her narration there) and show her doing actual reporting. Hell, even have her go undercover with whoever the big bad is next season.

But I assume next years going to be much of the same, oooo look at the special effects,  Oh, Cisco you rascal, OMG Joe you are such a great father, Caitlin do you have a band aid?  more crossovers oh and there's  Iris um... she's looking really pretty.  right RIGHT?

[CabotCove]

But I assume next years going to be much of the same, oooo look at the special effects,  Oh, Cisco you rascal, OMG Joe you are such a great father, Caitlin do you have a band aid?  more crossovers oh and there's  Iris um... she's looking really pretty.  right RIGHT?

 

LOL

[phoenics]

If they want to improve Iris they need to stop using her to feed into Joe's a good father storylines and to start building her up as a person as opposed to a love interest that was inserted into the story because they have no choice. Get her out of the lab ( do we really need her narration there) and show her doing actual reporting. Hell, even have her go undercover with whoever the big bad is next season.

But I assume next years going to be much of the same, oooo look at the special effects,  Oh, Cisco you rascal, OMG Joe you are such a great father, Caitlin do you have a band aid?  more crossovers oh and there's  Iris um... she's looking really pretty.  right RIGHT?

AH! Lord I hope not... but you're probably right.

[Whodunnit]

 Why wasn't Iris out there with Cisco and Joe and Barry? She is a grown woman who owns and knows how to use a gun, and is not of more use in a lab (like Jesse). Is Joe really that much of a control freak (that he can't stand the thought of his grown daughter being in the same dangerous situation as everyone else), or were the writers side-lining her again?

Edited April 29, 2016 by Whodunnit