S30.E04: S30.E04: Winner Winner, Chicken Dinner / S03.E05: We're Finally Playing Some Survivor

[KimberStormer]

I don't know what was to dislike about Yul.  Ozzy, sure, but not Yul.  But yeah, I, too, preferred Becky and Sundra to both of them.

 

Responding in past seasons thread.

[SlackerInc]

SMH that Probst doesn't understand what "jump the shark" means.  Because surely no producer would say that about their own show if they understood it...right?

[Lingo]

Or how about after the challenge, the losing team is the one that is split up. The winning team gets to chose first, and the second winning team chooses second. Then back and forth until all the losing team is gone.

 

I kinda like that idea, though it guarantees that the losing tribe will be a minority on both new teams.  But I've always thought that if there were only one or two members left of a team at the "swap" (ala Malcolm and Denise), then the Reward should be that the team that wins the reward gets to pick which of the two is on their team.

 

About this season-- When they did the tribe swap last season I think they gave each of the three original tribes a bag with half of each new Buff color inside, so there couldn't possibly be a 'mostly intact' original tribe after the swap.  I wonder why they didn't do that this time.

 

That can't be right, because all 3 remaining Brains ended up on the same team.  But I think they don't do that because they want there to be a chance for a team that was losing before the swap to still have a chance at a majority after the swap, which is what the Brains practically managed to do.

[Lingo]

SMH that Probst doesn't understand what "jump the shark" means.  Because surely no producer would say that about their own show if they understood it...right?

 

I'm sure he was using it sarcastically, because he knows (and hates) that every time they add a new twist, there's a core group of fans who complain loudly about it and probably use that very phrase.  I just read another interview with EW (or was it the same one?) where he was complaining about the fans who always ask them to do a season with no idols and no twists, just exactly like Season 1 (like my coworker).  I have to agree with Probst: the twists are what have kept this show on the air.

[SlackerInc]

I just read another interview with EW (or was it the same one?) where he was complaining about the fans who always ask them to do a season with no idols and no twists, just exactly like Season 1 (like my coworker).  I have to agree with Probst: the twists are what have kept this show on the air.

 

I agree, and wouldn't want them to do vanilla seasons every year, but it could be a "twist" in its own right to do it once.

 

Another thing that was interesting about S1 is having people just vote their own way without automatically going into alliances.  I wonder if tribes were shuffled every week, if you'd see more of that.

Edited March 22, 2015 by SlackerInc

[Lingo]

If tribes were shuffled every week (another one of my coworker's ideas), no one would keep the physically strong players around.

[EC Amber]

Damn, was working on a response with what I hoped would have been thoughtful and interesting commentary. 

And the computer ate it. 

A summation: Rodney put his mom on a pedestal. He said he doesn't need a girlfriend because he has his mother (paraphrase). Essentially his mother meets all of his needs except sex. It is no surprise that he thinks women need to raise their standards. He probably ignore those that don't fuck him and hates the ones that do (for doing it no less!). This makes me hate the producers for putting someone on screen that makes me think about these kinds of things instead of watching a game show. It also makes me wonder how far they will go in terms of blatant bigotry (be it sexism or racism or against LGBT, etc etc). It seems there was some gentle maneuvering on Jeff's part in terms of addressing it. I can't wait for him to get off my screen. Please leave the game immediately. 

I'm intrigued with the Mike/Kelly duo. They had the potential to build a really strong alliance. I'm curious how that will work since they were separated relatively quickly. You two round out my upper middle listing. 

Dan - It's not that you are smarter than most people realize, it's that you are dumber than you know. You can leave at any time. 

 

Carolyn - one of my top three. Love her game and think she did right jumping ship. She could see she had numbers against her if she stayed and this gives her some inroads on forging new alliances before her name comes up. Having the HII just cinches her for the merge. At that point I'm not sure how well she'll play out (unless she can take the HII with her). 

 

Will - how are you still here? I'm not mad. I'm kind of impressed. 

 

Jenn - also in my top three. I weirdly oscillate with her. She definitely sets off strong emotions, but I think that is what tips me into liking her. She's funny and snarky, and she seems pretty bright. I sometimes question her perspective, but I'm wondering how much of that is immaturity. She's got the idol and seems to be in a pretty good spot. 

 

Joe - He seems to be staying off the radar and I'm not sure if that is a good thing or bad. He might be the one guy on the Adonis tribe that can get the female vote just on the default of not being a sexist pig. Given the bozo's he is surrounded by I"m not convinced this will dawn on them as a problem. He's three of the top three. Curious to see how his social game works. 

Apparently there is a guy named Tyler on this show. <shrug>

Hali - I had hopes. 

 

Vince - I am so glad you're gone. I don't even want to think about the world of suck we would be subjected to if you were still around.Sad to see Lindsey go - especially when the other viable alternate is Rodney.

Mostly amused to see Max go - From the cut he got I don't quite get how he was more annoying than Shirin. I still sympathize with her. We're quite a bit a like I suspect. 

[LadyChatts]

If tribes were shuffled every week (another one of my coworker's ideas), no one would keep the physically strong players around.

 

I used to want that idea, just for the very fact that I thought it might actually make people have to play the game from day 1.  Just do a One World where they all live together, but each episode they pick buffs and that's the tribe they compete on.  I thought it would get rid of the goats earlier, and may be a saving grace to some people on the losing end of an alliance early on before there's a tribe swap/merge.  I didn't think about the physically strong getting booted first, but I ultimately didn't like the idea because it'd be a nightmare trying to remember who everyone is.  In a three tribe format it can take me several episodes to begin identifying who's who, especially the people we have this season like Sierra and Kelly who've barely had any screen time up until this past week.  I couldn't imagine everyone not only on the same beach, but no one tribe to identify them at first.  And, I'd miss the dynamics.  I feel like we've missed out this season so far on what's been going down at the other tribes, given some of the exit interviews of contestants.  

[Guest]

SMH that Probst doesn't understand what "jump the shark" means.  Because surely no producer would say that about their own show if they understood it...right?

I'd like to read that interview but can't find the link and google isn't turning up anything.  Help?  Because I too would be shocked if JP used 'jumped the shark' as something flattering.  

[Lingo]

Yeah, that's the other problem: producers wouldn't go for a true One World where they're all living together because it would be hard to learn everyone's names -- not to mention impossible to keep track of the interpersonal dynamics (with 3 tribes, each person only has 5 possible partnerships; with one tribe, it would be 17!).  But I don't see how it would "get rid of the goats earlier", unless you mean some people are so obnoxious everyone would agree to vote them out quickly.

 

But to spell out more what I said before, the game has a certain balance.  Before the merge, if you're stuck in a tribe and depend on team challenge wins to avoid TC, then you have an incentive to vote out the weak and keep the strong.  After the merge, when you're competing for individual immunity, it's the opposite.  The institution of semi-regular, semi-predictable tribe swaps (the swap has happened in the 5th episode of every 3-tribe season IIRC) has somewhat weakened that balance to the detriment of the strong a little bit.  But if you have just one tribe from the get-go, then it becomes completely unbalanced.

I'd like to read that interview but can't find the link and google isn't turning up anything.  Help?  Because I too would be shocked if JP used 'jumped the shark' as something flattering.  

 

I couldn't tell you which one exactly, but it's one of his interviews with Dalton Ross on ew.com.  Every week he answers a few questions from Dalton and I think it was the latest one.

[Guest]

That can't be right, because all 3 remaining Brains ended up on the same team.  But I think they don't do that because they want there to be a chance for a team that was losing before the swap to still have a chance at a majority after the swap, which is what the Brains practically managed to do.

The Wentworths (Kelley and Dale) just mentioned it on a Rob podcast.  But that was Blood vs. Water (29), not Brains, etc. (28).  There were only two original tribes, I had said three.  But Kelley said the reshuffle was done in that way-- with each tribe split in half first and then recombined.  I guess they had to evenly mix up 'returning' vs. 'new/loved ones', possibly?  

[Guest]

I couldn't tell you which one exactly, but it's one of his interviews with Dalton Ross on ew.com.  Every week he answers a few questions from Dalton and I think it was the latest one.

Thanks, found it!  

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/02/24/jeff-probst-names-his-favorite-survivor-winner-non-winner-twist-challenge-and

 

He does say that.  Odd.  I assume he means it in a 'defied the odds' sort of way.   'We try things that for other shows would be 'shark jumping' levels of crazy and we keep on surviving!'  Maybe?  

[Lingo]

Do you mean BvW One (27) or Two (29)?  There were no returnees on S29.  I don't remember how they did the shuffles on either season but I can believe they did it that way.

[LadyChatts]

Yeah, that's the other problem: producers wouldn't go for a true One World where they're all living together because it would be hard to learn everyone's names -- not to mention impossible to keep track of the interpersonal dynamics (with 3 tribes, each person only has 5 possible partnerships; with one tribe, it would be 17!).  But I don't see how it would "get rid of the goats earlier", unless you mean some people are so obnoxious everyone would agree to vote them out quickly.

 

But to spell out more what I said before, the game has a certain balance.  Before the merge, if you're stuck in a tribe and depend on team challenge wins to avoid TC, then you have an incentive to vote out the weak and keep the strong.  After the merge, when you're competing for individual immunity, it's the opposite.  The institution of semi-regular, semi-predictable tribe swaps (the swap has happened in the 5th episode of every 3-tribe season IIRC) has somewhat weakened that balance to the detriment of the strong a little bit.  But if you have just one tribe from the get-go, then it becomes completely unbalanced.

 

I couldn't tell you which one exactly, but it's one of his interviews with Dalton Ross on ew.com.  Every week he answers a few questions from Dalton and I think it was the latest one.

 

I believe the link for that interview is on the previous page (it was a pre-season one, where he mentioned all his favorites of the past seasons).

 

I meant to say floaters, the types that are scooped up into an alliance because they appear to have no game.  But yes, some people may have to be more aware of being obnoxious since it could get them targeted, physically strong or not.  

 

Not having that security every week, or however long your tribe lasts, might make you more inclined to step up and try to control your own destiny.  However, that in reality may be more likely to keep those types around, and make people less likely to open up and do anything big.  Yeah, every way I look at it, I'm glad it's never been attempted because it would make even the worst Survivor seasons look good.  And I think of this season, and the tribal dynamics and strategies we have seen.  Some of which failed spectacularly on those wanna-be schemers (Vince, Max).  I don't always agree with the twists on here, and depending what this twist is and who it ends up benefiting may make me loathe it.  Actually, that's usually what I hate more than the twist itself is when it ends up benefiting the person I loathe most and who becomes completely overrated by Probst's hype.  I will say that there was a time when I was tired of the idols, and tribe swaps, and thought a twist for the contestants would be to have no twists at all because they would be expecting something.  Watching the early years of Survivor, I think the idol has definitely changed the game for the better.  Without that or tribe swaps, all we saw was one tribe make an alliance and take another tribe out after the merge.

Edited March 22, 2015 by LadyChatts

[Lingo]

Thanks, found it!  

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/02/24/jeff-probst-names-his-favorite-survivor-winner-non-winner-twist-challenge-and

 

He does say that.  Odd.  I assume he means it in a 'defied the odds' sort of way.   'We try things that for other shows would be 'shark jumping' levels of crazy and we keep on surviving!'  Maybe?  

 

I still think it's sarcasm, but that's another possible reading. :)  I'm just worried about what he says for Seasons 31/32: "we’re contemplating doing another evolution in the game."  If it's anything like Redemption Island then count me out!

[Lingo]

I will say that there was a time when I was tired of the idols, and tribe swaps, and thought a twist for the contestants would be to have no twists at all because they would be expecting something.  Watching the early years of Survivor, I think the idol has definitely changed the game for the better.  Without that or tribe swaps, all we saw was one tribe make an alliance and take another tribe out after the merge.

 

Yeah...although I think that outcome could by and large be avoided by having 3 tribes at the beginning.  In fact I used to wish that they would keep 3 tribes all the way to the merge (even though that would make it very difficult to plan the later challenges, not knowing for sure how many players would be left on each tribe).  But even when they get reshuffled into two tribes, that original 3-tribe composition keeps things pretty complicated after the merge (though no one seemed to notice that they practically voted out all of the Beauties immediately after merging last spring).

[SlackerInc]

I read the Jeff Probst interview and I am not seeing any of the explanations in which he actually understands what the idiom "jumping the shark" means. I believe he really thinks of it, as incredible as this seems, in the way the people running the show Happy Days saw it. As in: "Fonzie jumping over a shark — this is going to be awesome!"

I think it's pretty clear that he thinks it just means to shake up your TV show by doing something new and daring. And then he goes from that idiotic thought straight into calling it Shakespearean. ::headdesk::

[kikaha]

If tribes were shuffled every week (another one of my coworker's ideas), no one would keep the physically strong players around.

Real hard to make any lasting alliances that way.  Besides, I personally want to see some physically strong players on Survivor.  That is a key part of surviving, which is part of what this game is about.  Otherwise, why go in the wilds?  Why not just have a series of puzzles and memory challenges, all done inside a house?  Why cast the physically strong at all, if your game is going to vote them out right away?

 

One reason Survivor is so brilliant is that so many different types of people can play and succeed.  Constant shuffling would cut into that, and make the game a lot less interesting, at least to me. 

[pennben]

As for this episode, I don't really like the hashtags the show does, but when Jenn talked about the race to the most annoying between Max/Shirin, I laughed out loud at the #photofinish.

Edited March 22, 2015 by pennben

[ozlsn]

Or how about after the challenge, the losing team is the one that is split up. The winning team gets to chose first, and the second winning team chooses second. Then back and forth until all the losing team is gone.

 

I like that as an idea, although then you're keeping two of the three original tribes intact which could lead to straight vote outs.  I think overall I'd prefer schoolyard pick, alternating men and women.

 

Just do a One World where they all live together, but each episode they pick buffs and that's the tribe they compete on. <snip>....but I ultimately didn't like the idea because it'd be a nightmare trying to remember who everyone is.  In a three tribe format it can take me several episodes to begin identifying who's who, especially the people we have this season like Sierra and Kelly who've barely had any screen time up until this past week.  I couldn't imagine everyone not only on the same beach, but no one tribe to identify them at first.  And, I'd miss the dynamics.  I feel like we've missed out this season so far on what's been going down at the other tribes, given some of the exit interviews of contestants.  

 

I still kind of like the idea, but what I want is for them to draw buffs, head to different beaches, do a reward and an immunity challenge... and then go back to the beach for a tribe swap three days later.  Yeah they'd need to do a lot more work with editing so we had an idea of who everyone was, and how they were relating to each other, but I still think it has potential.  On the positive side it might stop the "let's focus on one character and ignore everyone else" editing.  Or, of course, not.

[marys1000]

I think Probst, above all else, is a producer of Survivor.  His primary concern is to get people to tune in.  So he says every season is the best one (who, but the biggest fans, would watch a season the host calls mediocre?) and any episode that has something different happen (medical comes in, someone is blindisided, someone does something that offends some of the others, there is a big argument, gets hyped as a highlight episode.  It also explains rather liberal use of "blindsided" - if the vote was a surprise to anyone, then encourage the audience to remember it as a blindside.  He also has to "create" excitement where he can - asking leading questions and making insightful (maybe that should be incite-ful?) comments at TC, or spouting things at challenges that may help the losing tribe catch up a bit (all those comments that make the tried ant true fans say "Shut up, Probst").  Of course, his favorite players will be the players that did something memorable or gave funny talking heads - those are the players that helped the ratings and made him money.

Yes.  It has been said that TC's are much longer than shown and that yes Jeff has to work on getting not just memorable moments but talk about what's happening.   Its not "his fault" or bad thing - everyone playing would know that the absolutely best strategy is to just keep your mouth shut at tribal, period.  Would anyone watch?   Don't we all think man I can't believe you said that, don't talk at tribal!  I wonder if they make them sign something about that?  You must participate in certain ways. 

 

Max said in his interview that he turned to Lindsay during voting and said "its me" because he could tell when someone only wrote 3 letters vs. 5 or more.  She still seemed surprised tho.  I always suspect editing, the eye rolls, the looks of surprise.  They can capture them at anytime during those 2 to 3 hours and then edit them in.  The gutted look after the look of surprise...that I think was real:)

Edited March 22, 2015 by marys1000

[BigRedCheese]

 

Max said in his interview that he turned to Lindsay during voting and said "its me" because he could tell when someone only wrote 3 letters vs. 5 or more.

I wonder if that's why he did his little, "hold up Jeff" Idol joke, because he knew he was going home and just wanted to do that before he left.

[Guest]

I wonder if that's why he did his little, "hold up Jeff" Idol joke, because he knew he was going home and just wanted to do that before he left.

But if he turned to Lindsay, it must've been the tribal before he got voted out, since Lindsay went before him?  Or am I remembering her name wrong?  

 

Do you mean BvW One (27) or Two (29)?  There were no returnees on S29.  I don't remember how they did the shuffles on either season but I can believe they did it that way.

It was definitely Kelley W. talking about her own tribe swap, so 29.  I'm just mixing things up here.  I'm no Max!  

 

I still think it's sarcasm, but that's another possible reading. :)  I'm just worried about what he says for Seasons 31/32: "we’re contemplating doing another evolution in the game."  If it's anything like Redemption Island then count me out!

I've been fine with the show so far and with Jeff and I don't think he's stupid enough to think jumping the shark is a good thing.  30 seasons is a long time.  He's probably heard that term 3,000 times, in correct context.  I didn't love R.I. but I didn't hate it.  I'm all for new stuff, really.  

[peachmangosteen]

But if he turned to Lindsay, it must've been the tribal before he got voted out, since Lindsay went before him?  Or am I remembering her name wrong? 

 

Max has never been on a tribe with Lindsey so he never could've turned to her during TC. Do you mean Shirin?

[Guest]

Max has never been on a tribe with Lindsey so he never could've turned to her during TC. Do you mean Shirin?

I haven't heard/read any Max interviews myself but I bet the person who typed that he turned to Lindsey did mean Shirin.  That's who he was next to, huh?  

 

ETA:  I found it, he does say Shirin.  It's actually a pretty funny interview.  He gets some jabs in at Rodney's intelligence.  Joe's amazingness.  

http://parade.com/384534/joshwigler/survivor-contestant-max-dawson-im-a-bit-of-a-monster-what-can-i-say/

Edited March 22, 2015 by Guest

[ratgirlagogo]

 

I've been fine with the show so far and with Jeff and I don't think he's stupid enough to think jumping the shark is a good thing.  30 seasons is a long time.  He's probably heard that term 3,000 times, in correct context

Despite what I wrote above I do have one big reason for thinking Jeff was being sarcastic - Jeff is one of the world's most fanatical fans of the Howard Stern show (he hosts Celebrity Superfan Roundtable on Howard's Sirius channel) and John Hein (the guy who started jumptheshark.com) is part of Howard's staff.

[seacliffsal]

Max may be trying to manage his image by stating that he knew he was leaving, but that look of shock wasn't an act, nor his silent walk off.  Yes, there's editing in the show, but there's also self-editing to make one appear more knowledgeable and aware than one may have been.

[Rick Kitchen]

Probst hates Yul because Yul's smarter than him by a gigantic margin.  And doesn't even have the courtesy to be a pasty nerd.

 

Everybody is smarter than Probst.

 

Isn't Max already in the Cool Kids Club of alumni?

[ennui]

This is probably a stupid question, but I don't watch Survivor very often ... I guess that people who are allergic to eggs and shellfish simply don't apply to be on the show? 

I can recall early seasons when people lost a lot of weight, but now it appears that food is more often supplied, in the form of chickens. I'm just wondering.

[fishcakes]

I can't remember if they've given chickens every season, but they started doing it as early as the first season. Pagong won three in a reward challenge and Jenna Lewis immediately named them, "Breakfast, Lunch, and Dinner." And I do know there were chickens in the second season because that's what caused the infamous fight that ended with Alicia saying, "I will always wave my finger in your face."

Edited March 23, 2015 by fishcakes

[ennui]

Thanks. I only remember tribes winning bags of rice, but like I said, I don't watch very often.

[himela]

As a general comment I don't find this season's cast fascinating. It seems that most of the people were put there not due to their love for the game or their capacity to win it rather than their "exploding" personality which will possibly create fights and drama that is meant to do for good tv. It's exactly why I'm getting disappointed from this show that I other than that adore; it seems more and more every year the producers are searching for characters rather than good players. Cochran was not good looking, he was not good tv stuff, but the season he won was one of the best for me, same with Denise, Paschal etc. I want to see strategists, smart people, good "actors" and not just people who will start yelling at each other and ruin the game.

[NutMeg]

Count me in the minority, but I loved the way the new tribes were decided - this way has the best potential for "random" - duh - outcomes, such as in the first All Star, when tribes stayed intact but for the transfer of one contestant - and what consequences that had :-)

 

I'm also of the opinion that the physical inbalance is not that unfair. Jenn, Hali and Carolyn seem to be good athletes, and can run or swim AND still solve puzzle. And even if the challenge is completely lopsided and they lose, I think having gone to Tribal and survived is a big plus in Survivor, and that's why winners often emerge from minority tribes.

 

I think Carolyn made the right call: why stay loyal to people you were not in synch with and therefore who are most likely to turn on you down the road? Much better to secure a (secondary?) alliance before they do and vote them out. [Very similar to Parvati's approach in FvsF after the swap - vote out who you don't want to/will not take you to the end and make new connections]. I love the way she waited until she saw how Max/Shirin were being perceived before she made her pitch. I don't see how this move could have alienated Tyler (who I also like and hope is making inroads of his own to build a secondary alliance). I'd say, whatever tribe you were originally on, tribe swap is the golden opportunity to get rid of former tribemates not aligned with you.

 

Of course, the icing on the cake was that it was Max, the clueless self-proclaimed Survivor expert who had no idea this was a social game!

 

I love how production is editing the moron guys from the Blue Collar tribe and cannot want for the demise of Dan and Rodney, in that order. Rodney is so obviously someone you stay away from and one of the "below average IQ" (and EQ, according to me) part of the cast that he's just a joke (an unpleasant one, granted) at this stage, but I hate Dan's manipulative, pretending-to-be-nice-and-not-succeding but still coming up as thinking he smells like roses person. The quicker Dan is gone, the better for me. And I don't ever to see him or his doubtful attire choice and offensve humour ever again. Seriously, this guy bugs more than Russel Hantz, at least the latter was semi-aware of the character he was playing. I'd be ok meeting Pink underwear Agent Phil and Feather in his hair Coach, and even think it would be fun, but I hope I never have to sit for a 15 min one-on-one with Dan (not likely to happen, but that shows how much I despise him).

 

There are a lot of people I like this season and that I could see as winners: Carolyn, Jenn, Hali, Tyler, Joe (if he survives..., as he's the most likely to be voted out early), even Will. Kelly seems a bit wishy-washy to me (i.e. follow the leader), but we'll see. Sierra I symnpathize with but don't see as a "playa" for now. The others all seem to me to be getting the buffoon edit and to be cannon fodder. But their demise should be fun. Bring it on!

 

[sorry for being so late to the party - was working on a big time consuming thing - did allow myself 15-30 min a day on this forum but you guys were so prolific that I could never catch up on all the new posts before posting] 

 

Edited for spelling though I'm sure I left a few typos there - please be indulgent, I'm sleep deprived and haven't eaten much [more than half a small snake] lately. 

Edited March 23, 2015 by NutMeg

[SlackerInc]

I can recall early seasons when people lost a lot of weight, but now it appears that food is more often supplied, in the form of chickens. I'm just wondering.

 

They still lose quite a bit of weight.  On the CBS website they will start featuring something called "Ponderosa" after they start building the jury, which shows what happens at the accommodations they go to after getting voted off.  The first thing they do is go get weighed, and IIRC it's pretty typical for guys to lose thirty to forty pounds or so, and maybe half that for women.  That's quite a bit after only two or three weeks.

[ProfCrash]

The thing is, Max and Shirin were not going to turn on Carolyn. Max and Shirin would have remained loyal to Carolyn and Taylor. So Carolyn's turning on them meant she walked away from a final four, potentially a final three, alliance. Why? Because Shirin and Max annoyed her. So she turned away from a final four, potentially a final three, with two perfect freaking goats. ummmmmm, yeah, not the best decision.

 

Honestly, it felt like a very Kass like move. I want to be the special person who makes the move and he decisions and I am not going to worry about logic.

[NutMeg]

Thing is, even in the best scenario, you never know who's going to turn on you. Did Ozzy expect it from Parvati/Cirie in F vs F? Did Denise expect it from Malcolm at F4? Do if even close allies are not to be trusted, even more reason to not trust the ones that you're not close to. Of course, she could have expended a lot of energy to get close to them, but why, when the number game is against these two on both tribes? I still think it's better to use to pre-merge shuffle to secure new sub-alliances, even if they (might) remain secondary to your main alliance on the other tribe, because you never know what will happen and who of your core allies will still be there come merge time.

[himela]

My understanding and logic is that when a tribe is split they are expected to remain faithful to each other and do their best to keep their numbers regardless of the problems they may have had between them before the split. I think it's an unspoken rule and someone doing the opposite seems like a betrayal not only to their former tribe mates but to others as well. So this person is spotified as not loyal and selfish, playing their own game to win it and not caring for the rest, so dangerous. Carolyn could have kept her 5 strong tribemates intact and if and when they would become the top five, she could play for herself. I disagree with Carolyn's move and I bet she will fid herself in a worse alliance than the one she had, depending on how the other new tribe will face a possible tribal council. If Tyler and Joaquin leave next week, that leaves 4 former no collar tribemates and three former white collar tribemates, so her numbers are already lost and she has given the number advantage to former blue collar tribe.

 

Mistake. The only thing that might save her is her hidden immunity idol.

[NutMeg]

Himela, I couln't agree less. Take the example of Fans vs. Favs. Parvati took the opportunity of tribe split to eliminate not only Eliza (who would have aligned with another faction of her tribe), but also Ozzy (a close ally) but in the process she strenghtened one ally (Cirie) and gained new allies (basically all the newbies or Fans on her tribe, althought she only rode two of them to the end). 

 

You do not stay loyal in a vacuum. You don't know how others are shifting their game in the other tribe and you have to keep playing. People you are now with may have been ready to switch or may find themselves without their former alliance come merge time. People you were with before may be making/swithching to a new alliance. At that stage it seems to me you have to assess each person individually and then make your decision whether they can help you to get further or not. It's a case by case/season by season thing and I don't see any universal rule that you should follow. But as always, mileage may vary, etc. 

[AZChristian]

Max and/or Sherin would have turned on Carolyn in a heartbeat if it was to their own advantage.  And at some point, they'd have needed to turn on each other.  There is no true loyalty in Survivor.  Only one person wins.  You have to Outlast, Outwit, Outplay.  If switching an alliance helps someone to outlast someone else, so be it.

 

Things change so quickly in Survivor.  Some have said that Carolyn is now at the bottom of her new alliance.  I just see it as she's now part of a group of four rather than a group of three . . . and four outnumbers three every time.  That group of three is now a group of one - and that one is not Carolyn.  It's better after the merge to be part of a group of four, rather than part of a group of three.

[peachmangosteen]

While Max/Shirin might have turned on Carloyn, Jenn/Hali almost certainly will because they have Will and possibly Joe if he isn't booted before merge. Carolyn will then become #5 (maybe #4) in a 5 person alliance.

 

I think Carolyn should've stayed with Max and Shirin but I don't think she really killed her game by not doing it. I do believe however that it was totally an emotional decision by her. She didn't like them, Max especially, and I think that's literally the only reason why she went along with voting Max out. That's fine IMO because I don't really care about people making emotional decisions, especially if they mostly own up to it, which I think Carolyn basically does.

[NutMeg]

She didn't like them, Max especially, and I think that's literally the only reason why she went along with voting Max out.

 

See, I think when she says she didn't like them, I read that as not so much dislike on a personal level than dislike as allies, i.e. she couldn't count on them because their logic was very different from hers. I think Carolyn is there to play, but Max was there to "be a character", a "mastermind" (as he saw it), but wasn't playing, and Shirin is there for the fun of it and was happy to align herself with Max (because she though his strategy was excellent? frankly so far I have no idea what she is thinking in terms of strategy, the only thing I see is a person happy for the adventure and blind to other players - except from Max, that is, but that's more of a negative in my book to be aligned with the only player who reads the room as badly as you do).  

 

ETA: People who go "we're finally playing Survivor" or another version thereof are usually bad players, because they have a preconceived idea of what Survivor is/should be and they try to fit what happens around them into this idea insstead of being flexible enough to respond (i.e. adjust themselves) to what/who they are facing. Incidentally, I think that's why some returning players become worse with each appearance - they're trying to live up to their "image"'hype more than they are reacting to what's around them.     

Edited March 23, 2015 by NutMeg

[himela]

You don't know how others are shifting their game in the other tribe and you have to keep playing. People you are now with may have been ready to switch or may find themselves without their former alliance come merge time. People you were with before may be making/swithching to a new alliance.

 

That's why I'm saying you should stay loyal to your old alliance and hope they do the same so that you are reunited when the merge comes. But even if your former mates have switched in their own tribes, you have a better opportunity to rejoin them when the merge come if you have stayed loyal to them than if you haven't. The message you give to your former alliance and everyone is "I'm loyal, I can be your asset, take me to your alliance". Plus in this very case I find no reason for Carolyn to vote Max out. Has he ever shown any indication that he wanted Carolyn out? I really don't remember...

 

Max and/or Sherin would have turned on Carolyn in a heartbeat if it was to their own advantage.  And at some point, they'd have needed to turn on each other.  There is no true loyalty in Survivor.  Only one person wins.  You have to Outlast, Outwit, Outplay.  If switching an alliance helps someone to outlast someone else, so be it.

 

Things change so quickly in Survivor.  Some have said that Carolyn is now at the bottom of her new alliance.  I just see it as she's now part of a group of four rather than a group of three . . . and four outnumbers three every time.  That group of three is now a group of one - and that one is not Carolyn.  It's better after the merge to be part of a group of four, rather than part of a group of three.

You can't outlast someone if the alliance you choose to switch to considers you #5 in a five people alliance while in your current alliance you were #2 or #3 (which I'm sure that was the matter cause Carolyn and Tyler were close after she showed him her HII).

 

How is she in a group of four? After the merge Hali - Jenn - Will - Joe reunite and Carolyn is easily left out hanging, being considered as a betrayer to both her former tribe AND the people who still remain in the game. Do you imagine what the reaction of the new blue tribe will be when they find out Max (who was in a three people alliance in his tribe) was voted out? They will know instantly that someone from the former white collar tribe has flipped. Will this make a good impression to them, regardless if it helps their game or not? I don't think so. Max was harmless for Carolyn and there was no need to vote him out, she just did it to create the impression that she is capable of great moves if she makes it to the final three. But her move was (imo) stupid, emotional, illogical and without a purpose.

Edited March 23, 2015 by himela

[NutMeg]

After the merge Hali - Jenn - Will - Joe reunite and Carolyn is easily left out hanging

 

Just as a theory, suppose these 5 were final 5, do you really think Hali/Jenn/Will would like to go to F4 with Joe?  

[peachmangosteen]

Max was harmless for Carolyn and there was no need to vote him out, she just did it to create the impression that she is capable of great moves if she makes it to the final three. But her move was (imo) stupid, emotional, illogical and without a purpose.

 

I don't even think it was about making moves for her, she just really didn't like Max. Which I can easily get, I didn't like him either, but she let her distaste for him affect her decision making in a way that I think wasn't beneficial to her. I don't think it really killed her game, but it didn't help it IMO.

 

I would like to know why exactly Carolyn was so against Max though. I mean, he was insufferable sure, but I find Joaquin and Tyler (and Shirin really, even though I liker her) annoying as well so I'd like to know what exactly made Carolyn so fixated on her Max dislike.

[himela]

Just as a theory, suppose these 5 were final 5, do you really think Hali/Jenn/Will would like to go to F4 with Joe?  

We have to remember people in the game don't have the same perception of the rest of the players or their own image like we as viewers do. Hali and Jenn might be really sure that themselves and Joe are in an equal group and the best will win in regards of who has found an idol, made big moves, had a better social game, created better relationships, won more challenges etc. We as viewers like Joe so far cause he seems a good guy who is there for everyone while the girls come out as b#tches, but they don't know that. In Jenn's eyes she is better than Joe for finding the idol without clues. So I don't see why the girls would not want to go to the final three with Joe.

[Lakewood27]

See, I think when she says she didn't like them, I read that as not so much dislike on a personal level than dislike as allies, i.e. she couldn't count on them because their logic was very different from hers. I think Carolyn is there to play, but Max was there to "be a character", a "mastermind" (as he saw it), but wasn't playing, and Shirin is there for the fun of it and was happy to align herself with Max (because she though his strategy was excellent? frankly so far I have no idea what she is thinking in terms of strategy, the only thing I see is a person happy for the adventure and blind to other players - except from Max, that is, but that's more of a negative in my book to be aligned with the only player who reads the room as badly as you do). 

 

That's the way I saw it. Max was there for the experience, not to actually play and win. Why wasn't he out there every minute looking for the HII? Why wasn't he wheeling and dealing? Rattling off useless trivia and mind-melding with Shirin by the fire for 10 hours doesn't count.

[NutMeg]

Fair enough, Himela, but I still see Jenn/Hali as having enough game awareness to not take him. But they might want to take Will. And then Joe wins immunuty at F5 and they hypothetically keep Carolyn because she might be the best bet to beat Joe at a puzzle at F4. And then Carolyn wins immunity at F4. All this is completely random but in a F5 scenario, being 5th of 5 and making it to 5 is actually not always a bad deal. Plus don't forget that Carolyn has other options on the other team.    

[peachmangosteen]

Why wasn't he out there every minute looking for the HII?

 

I didn't think about this, but what a good point. It's very surprising that apparently Max didn't look for the HII. Of course he very well may have but they didn't show it because he never found it. Although being such a superfan it would surprise me if he looked and didn't find it really.

 

Fair enough, Himela, but I still see Jenn/Hali as having enough game awareness to not take him. But they might want to take Will. And then Joe wins immunuty at F5 and they hypothetically keep Carolyn because she might be the best bet to beat Joe at a puzzle at F4. And then Carolyn wins immunity at F4. All this is completely random but in a F5 scenario, being 5th of 5 and making it to 5 is actually not always a bad deal. Plus don't forget that Carolyn has other options on the other team.    

 

These are all good points and certainly Carolyn being so close to Tyler/Joaquin made it easy for her to vote Max out and not think it'd hurt her, but I still think she only did it because she didn't like him and she didn't look at it from a strategic sense at all. But again, I don't think it will kill her game. But if Red loses in the next ep and Jenn/Hali/Will decide to dump her for Shirin (which they 100% should do) I will laugh!

Edited March 23, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[himela]

Plus don't forget that Carolyn has other options on the other team.    

I'm not so sure about that, as I previously said it's hard for people to forget that someone betrayed their own team, even if it benefits them. How can this person be trusted to be dragged into an alliance?

[Boilergal]

If tribes were shuffled every week (another one of my coworker's ideas), no one would keep the physically strong players around.

Weekly shuffles would be a great idea - it would amp up the social game and you wouldn't have the crappy pagonging the seems to happen almost every season.

 

I think they would keep the physically strong players in the beginning and dump them at the merge like they do already.