S03.E08: Divestment

[stillshimpy]

think Gabriel was genuinely surprised that Elizabeth knew about Philip's son. I think Gabriel still views the marriage as a cover and was surprised at the level of communication between the two. This is American marriage communication.

 

That's an interesting take, because for one thing when Gabriel agreed to see what he could do, that is not the same thing as actually getting it done.  Gabriel has worked with Elizabeth long enough to know that if she's asking for something, there's a reason for it.  At a guess, she's never asked for special favors for her mom, or anyone remaining in Russia.   Although I don't believe this is Elizabeth's motivation, I thought Gabriel took it as read that if Elizabeth was asking for Mischa to be removed from combat, it was for reason related to their mission.  Such as "if you do this, he'll be so grateful, he'll finally be on board with recruiting Paige and actively help, vs. passively stand by" or that she felt the worry of his son in combat was causing Phillip to slip in the field. 

 

I just didn't necessarily think that Gabriel processed the request as, "Evidence that they now love one another!" because for one thing, I think the Center pretty much already knows "Well crap, the Jennings are now married-married as opposed to "for the sake of the motherland, I fake being your spouse, comrade, but the only love we share is for the love of Mother Russia" because of Claudia's antics at the end of season one and her rather dire warnings about trusting someone too much when you love them, because it leads to mistakes.  Gabriel has presumably been briefed on Elizabeth kicking Claudia's ass for that move, which would serve as something of a Love Tell for all and sundry.  I'm guessing.  

 

No I liked that Gabriel didn't ask her to justify the request in any terms.  Just trusted that if Elizabeth was asking, it was important.  Also, that if Phillip had felt moved to tell Elizabeth, then it was weighing on his mind to a distracting extent.  

 

For instance, listing to reports on the war in Afghanistan outside of the basement o' secrets isn't exactly adhering to the necessarily covert manner in which they operate.  

[Penman61]

Two questions:

 

1) When Elizabeth and the South African were putting the young SA back in the van, there was a long shot of a some guy running down steps and then across the road/path.  Was that Phillip?  If so, what was he doing?  If not, who was that and why did it matter?

 

2) Is Misha real?  My recollection (vague) is that the Philip's ex might have had reason to mislead Philip about the existence of a son, and Philip knew that too.  Please correct me all to heck about it. :)

[sistermagpie]

Okay, so a couple questions about the final Martha/Clark scene -- does she realize he's not really an oversight agent when she asks him "who are you" and he doesn't answer directly but rather answers with, "I'm the man who loves you." I ask this because when he doesn't answer her, she starts crying and says "what have I done."  Seems to me she is realizing he may not be on the up-and-up -- do we think she's starting to realize he's a KGB spy?  What did Clark mean by "is it enough that I love you and would do anything to protect you or do you need more?" Not sure what he was implying by that.

 

I thought she didn't want to go that far in her suspicions. She doesn't know who he is (this was the second and third time Philip's been asked "Who are you") this season but doesn't really want to know more. In her mind she must know KGB is a possibility but she doesn't need that spelled out for her right now. She'd rather be in the dark a little.

 

I'm not actually sure Martha knows that Illegals exist, btw. It doesn't seem to be common knowledge. So the fact that he's actually Russian might still blow her mind. She may think he's just an American working for other interests. He may try to play that Jennifer really is still his sister and knows nothing about his dark connections.

 

I thought he was in large part asking her if she wanted to know who he worked for and she said no. But also the "I will protect you" implies that Martha's in trouble if she pushes, that Clark is the person now standing between her and being in trouble. (Ironically the protection would mostly be from himself!)

 

Where in the Soviet Union is the Jewish scientist doing his work? Did they tell us?

 

 

 

They said it was somewhere in Siberia, I think, but I don't think they said specifically where.

 

I don't think anybody's ever called her "Nadia"--& if they've done it before, at least this season, I've forgotten.

 

 

 

The person meant Nina, but Nadia would definitely be something Elizabeth was called if someone was using her real name. Her mother has, I think, used it in her tapes. Don't remember if she did it in the last tape.

 

What is up with Arkady not packing Oleg off back home after repeated requests from his powerful father? I'd love to believe that Arkady just cares that much, but we've seen nothing to indicate that's the case.  I wonder, is it some kind of Iron Curtain Power Game I'm just not getting?  Is Arkady waiting for an even better assignment than being a Chief in the U.S.?  What's his game?

 

 

 

 

I think he does care that much. Arkady seems to be really fair and thinks Oleg's earned his place in DC and just doesn't like his father pushing him around. Oleg is valuable to him and has earned some respect so he's not going to just toss him out because his father says so. Remember one of the first things Arkady said about Oleg was that he didn't like the sons of powerful men waltzing into the KGB on their family name. Oleg's proved he's not just doing that, but Arkady is still always annoyed by croneyism and nepotism. He respects people who rise on merit and come from nothing.

 

I thought for sure that Martha would have cracked under the pressure of being interagated.  It seemed totally out of character for her to be calm cool and collected.

 

 

 

I thought it was very in character--and also I like how this show acknowledges that ordinary people lie all the time and are often good at it. 

 

I don't know why the Americans didn't try to use that bug in an effort to trap the spies.  It seemed like a golden opportunity that was completely wasted.

 

 

 

Finding who put the bug there is, imo, far too important in this case to immediately just use it to trick the Soviets. This is a major security breach and could go far beyond the bug.

 

In any case, I did like the conversation that Elizabeth had with Paige. It really speaks to the idea that the world and people are way too complex for the labels "good" and "bad" or "good vs. evil." I do think that it'll give Paige some things to think about.

 

 

Of course, Elizabeth herself is just as good/bad good/evil. She doesn't really believe in this whole "complicated" idea. She thinks it's okay that Gregory was a criminal because he broke US laws. She's hardly supportive of sticking it to the man when the man is in Moscow!

 

I think Gabriel was genuinely surprised that Elizabeth knew about Philip's son. I think Gabriel still views the marriage as a cover and was surprised at the level of communication between the two. This is American marriage communication.

 

 

 

I think, as stillshimpy said, that he's been aware of the change in their relationship--he mentioned it to both of them. I think he considered that Philip *might* tell her about his son because he had to consider all things, but was still very interested in the fact that he did and her response to it. It's probably not what he really wanted to happen. Now he's got to find a way to still be on Elizabeth's side while keeping Mischa Jr. wherever he can be threatened most easily to keep Philip in line.

 

1) When Elizabeth and the South African were putting the young SA back in the van, there was a long shot of a some guy running down steps and then across the road/path.  Was that Phillip?  If so, what was he doing?  If not, who was that and why did it matter?

 

 

It was Hans running away. I think she looked to see if Todd saw him.

 

2) Is Misha real?  My recollection (vague) is that the Philip's ex might have had reason to mislead Philip about the existence of a son, and Philip knew that too.  Please correct me all to heck about it. :)

 

 

 

We have no idea if he's real or not. Irina could have been lying, or partly-lying, and Gabriel could be too.

[Penman61]

Thank you, sistermagpie.  :)

[Loandbehold]

 

D'oh! Yes, that is totally who LoandBehold meant and they said that clearly and yet I still missed it. Oops! I was thinking of Elizabeth almost being captured as the end of S1. And once I had that in my head apparently no explanation could get through until now. :-)

No problem sistermagpie.* You just made me question my sanity. :)

 

I believe that both Elizabeth and Philip reacted to the burning of that guy, they just had to keep it together because (a) they had to keep working with the ANC guy, and (b) they still needed information from the college student. After the killing, they learned about the bomb, that he never set it off, and that he had it in his dorm (talk about saying that it was a science experiment if someone else discovered it).

 

Edited b/c it seems that stillshimpy and sister magpie are not the same person.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Loandbehold

[sistermagpie]

That confused me too, but then I wondered if "Gregory" was just his cover? Or at least the name Elizabeth gave as Gregory's to Paige was just a different guy.

 

 

I think according to the FBI Gregory Thomas was indeed his real name. He was never living under a false identity, he just dropped out of the Civil Rights movement and became ostensibly a simple drug dealer. It looked like a different guy to me too, but maybe it was just the picture. 

[snoba]

Hi, long time lurker, but I made an account to ask about something that was bugging me in the recap. I thought the reason the radio broadcast wasn't well tuned was because he was somehow listening to an overseas broadcast. I don't know anything about radio, but I don't think the BBC was normally heard on American radio back then (I was 8 in 1982 but wouldn't have been listening to news radio).

[RedHawk]

I don't know anything about radio, but I don't think the BBC was normally heard on American radio back then (I was 8 in 1982 but wouldn't have been listening to news radio).

 

 

He's using a short-wave radio. Many people used them back them to tune into overseas news.

[blixie]

 

but maybe it was just the picture.

Well the picture was absolutely NOT Derek Luke, like in no way, so maybe they just didn't have rights to show his picture again. It was on odd choice, because the camera focused on it for long minutes, and I'd be really irked if they thought everyone would just assume that dude was Derek Luke> it is NOT a flattering subtext to their thought process, it wasn't necessary for the scene for us to see a picture (especially an any black dude will do one). Nah,I am going to stick with it wasn't the same Gregory to save myself from getting righteously worked up about the subtext and as a Derek Luke/Gregory fan. 

[snoba]

He's using a short-wave radio. Many people used them back them to tune into overseas news.

Exactly. So wouldn't it make sense that it was static-y? I just thought it was odd that the recap called it out as being "badly tuned in" when I would have expected as much.

[maczero]

Damn!  I didn't think I'd ever feel bad for a racist but that was a horrible way to go.

 

Okay, I'm back in the Martha's an idiot camp.  If you're going to ask Clark who he really is then have that piece on you.  Also, I'm bugged that she bought the "I love you" BS.  Even worse is that Clark didn't even answer the question and she still gets in bed with him.

 

So now I'm wondering what are Martha's options on how to get out of this.  I like what the post below suggests.

 Although if I were her, I'd just ask him to disappear.  She doesn't know who he is, what he does, where he lives and there's no way she'd be able to find him.  

Makes sense.  She probably isn't of much use to him anymore.  He also has the leverage that she'll be on the hook too if she snitches.  Also if Clark does care for her in the slightest, then leaving doesn't force him into having to kill her.

 

Well the picture was absolutely NOT Derek Luke, like in no way, so maybe they just didn't have rights to show his picture again. It was on odd choice, because the camera focused on it for long minutes, and I'd be really irked if they thought everyone would just assume that dude was Derek Luke> it is NOT a flattering subtext to their thought process, it wasn't necessary for the scene for us to see a picture (especially an any black dude will do one). Nah,I am going to stick with it wasn't the same Gregory to save myself from getting righteously worked up about the subtext and as a Derek Luke/Gregory fan. 

I think the first pic was Derek Luke but the second pic was not.  That said, as a black man I wouldn't be offended if they didn't have a second pic for Luke and had to use a substitute actor.  I'll assume that they couldn't find someone who looked much like Luke and just had to settle with who was available.

[lacEdoll]

HO. LY. SHIT.

 

So many hard to watch scenes this episode, the top of course the guy doused in gasonline and being set on fire. Believe me I'm no fan of Apartheid era white Afrikaaners but yikes. I would have been okay with just shooting him in the head! Phillip and Elizabeth's reaction was just as disturbing. How do you not look away?

 

Nina's reunion with the old resident she betrayed in season 1: Awkwaaaaaard.

 

Phillip lying to Martha again and at this point I think Martha's choosing to believe the lie.

 

Poor Gaad taking out his frustrations on a mail robot.

 

I may be alone in my thinking, but I watched the faces of Phil and Liz during that burning. Their faces said it all, the eyes especially. They were both horrified, yet they could NOT flinch or let the South African know how bothered they were. They are KGB afterall, they can't show emotion and killing by fire was something the South African was accustomed to.

Edited March 20, 2015 by wrestlesflamingos
removed links

[stillshimpy]

No problem stillshimpy. You just made me question my sanity. :)

 

Ha...well, actually it was sistermagpie who did that, I was the one outlining the person you were thinking of in the first place.  

 

Back to square one over there, aren't you, LoandBehold? ;-) 

 

Exactly. So wouldn't it make sense that it was static-y? I just thought it was odd that the recap called it out as being "badly tuned in" when I would have expected as much.

 

Yes, it does make sense that the radio had static and furthermore that he wasn't able to listen to it in the basement of Espionage.  

Edited March 19, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Quando]

Why hasn't Taffet been giving lie detector tests to everyone who had access to Gadd's office? That is certainly what they would do in the real world. The FBI/CIA love those things. And although Martha may be a fairly competent amateur snoop, there is no way she's beating a lie detector test.

[damalanop]

The first picture that Paige flipped to was definitely Gregory (Derek Luke), but the second picture seemed to be a totally different person which really confused me.  Don't know why they would show pictures of two different men.  I will need to re-watch to make sense of that scene.

 

Slow as it moved, I thought this episode did a lot to move some plot lines forward.  Philip now knows why Martha has been acting strangely and that the bug in the pen has been discovered.  The bomb plot was foiled and the South African agitator was neutralized. Paige is creeping every slow closer to being recruited into the "movement."  And Elizabeth with her normally cold heart did something special for Philip (asking Gabriel to help Mischa).  Perhaps Mischa (if he exists) being moved from the front lines and used in another way, can be a pawn in convincing the Center not using Paige?

[blixie]

 

The first picture that Paige flipped to was definitely Gregory (Derek Luke), but the second picture seemed to be a totally different person which really confused me.  Don't know why they would show pictures of two different men.  I will need to re-watch to make sense of that scene.

 

 

Hmmm I missed the first picture, that is still...weird, unless the picture was of another man involved in the crime story? I guess it was just down to not having Luke on hand to mock up the head shot? 

[nowandlater]

It threw me off when the interrogator said Berkeley was the crown jewel of the "California State University" system.

 

I thought The Americans producers would be more knowledgable than that.

 

California has the "University of California" system, of which Berkeley and UCLA are a part of. It is headed by Janet Napolitano, former Dept. of Homeland Security secretary.

 

And California has the 23-campus "California State University" system, which is less prestigious than the University of California.

[5cents-worth]

I thought that Todd spotted Hans, meaning that letting Todd go is a mistake, because he will be able to get someone on the trail of Hans to Elizabeth and Phillip.

 

I thought this, too.  And Elizabeth looked less than thrilled that Hans was traipsing about while they were still inside. If Todd saw Hans, that is bad news for her, because she will need to get rid of Hans (and Todd) before too long.

 

I thought Philip and Elizabeth's reaction to the guy getting burned alive was interesting. No they didn't look away but even they took pause. They also wanted to spare the other guy who had no stomach for war or terrorism. I found that interesting.

 

Yeah I was surprised to see so much condemnation because A) they actually DID look disturbed and B) this is their JOB, they've seen some shit (folding a woman into a suitcase amirite?), so I can see why they are desensitized enough to not look away, but not so dead inside not to be shaken enough to let the other guy go (almost certainly to their detriment). It's all well and good for them to seem humanly emotional,  so we can root for them but practically that will fuck them in their jobs.

 

Yes, they both looked uncomfortable and maybe ashamed as well.  Recently, Phillip seems to have become more squeamish about some of the less savory things they have to do in their work, but I was a bit surprised to see Elizabeth turn her eyes away. Then later, by siding with Phillip and letting Todd go, Elizabeth seens almost compassionate, which is really uncharacteristic.  And I agree - watching it, I briefly liked her for it, but also thought about what a stupid move it could turn out to be. She better hope that watching his handler go down in (literal) flames scares Todd enough to keep his mouth shut. 

[Chaos Theory]

Why hasn't Taffet been giving lie detector tests to everyone who had access to Gadd's office? That is certainly what they would do in the real world. The FBI/CIA love those things. And although Martha may be a fairly competent amateur snoop, there is no way she's beating a lie detector test.

Because that doesn't have the psychological horror for Martha of finding out her husband and life is a lie or Aderholt basically being accused of being angery black man. Yes in real life a lie detector would be brought out and a line would be formed on to your left but for drama sake Gaad needs to get into a tussle with a mail robot.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[RedHawk]

I think the first pic was Derek Luke but the second pic was not.

 

 

That was indeed confusing. Are we supposed to think it was Gregory in disguise? There's no way the production company couldn't get a photo of Derek Luke and Photoshop it to look younger/older or whatever (add a beard or change the haircut to the correct decade's style). Clearly they have photos of him.

 

That microfiche machine brought back memories. I didn't catch much of the two articles. In the second one, the one where the photo was weirdly not Derek Luke, the story was about Gregory getting pulled over and having a pistol and drugs in the car, right? And was the first one was something about violence breaking out at a civil rights demonstration? 

Edited March 19, 2015 by RedHawk

[edhopper]

Martha is now compromised and a danger to Phillip.

So the only question seems to be, how does he kill her without bringing too much scrutiny to her private life, which might reveal something about him?

Edited March 19, 2015 by edhopper

[Chaos Theory]

I still don't think Phillip is going to kill Martha. It is an easy plot development. Elizabeth and Gabriel are going to tell him to but I don't think it is going to happen. When has this show ever gone for the easy plot development? If it had Nina would be dead by now.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[RedHawk]

They were both horrified, yet they could NOT flinch or let the South African know how bothered they were.

 

 

Yup, they had to stand there and coldly observe without flinching, but both were clearly bothered and glanced away a couple of times. Elizabeth looked like she had to swallow hard at one point, and Philip looked at her once as if to check that 1) she was ok, and 2) she was having the same reaction to it.

[Umbelina]

Rich foods and wine certainly go together, 90% of French cooking is high in animal fats. I would say you shouldn't be drinkng a GOOD wine with chips, but, like, some Franzia or Fish Eye? Sure.

 

I'm not surprised Martha kept it together, though I would not characterize her during the questioning, as calm, cool, and collected. She has good sense of preservation and she's been amateur spying, and she's pretty overall confident and assertive. She has a powerful motive NOT to lose it: arrest for treason. 

 

As someone who doesn't begrudge spys acting like spys and killing people to protect their covers, I won't be surprised if he kills Martha, but Philip being Philip I also think he might try the run/disappear option (and I'd think that was Martha's best chance too). I think he's going to have to decide quick though because the chances that they do not have eyes if not ears on everyone in Gaad's office is unlikely

Seriously to your last statement!  Again, sorry, going back to the DVD commentary Robert Baer made on the movie RED.  He casually comments that he always assumed he was under surveillance, phone, visual, all of it.  He acted accordingly, and still does.  I hope they don't drop that ball, but surveilling all of them might be a cost and man power drain.  They do have other things going on. 

 

I think Gabriel was genuinely surprised that Elizabeth knew about Philip's son. I think Gabriel still views the marriage as a cover and was surprised at the level of communication between the two. This is American marriage communication.

As for Martha she is working on pure survival mode right now and I am loving it. She is an intelligent woman who got played by her weakest emotions now she is playing towards her strengths and it a sight to behold.

I thought Gabriel was genuinely surprised as well.  Along with what others have said, I sensed a bit of an "oh shit" from him.  Possible reasons?  Philip and Elizabeth being closer than he believed.  Elizabeth being less emotional, since it's not her kid, and possibly able to analyze this more clearly than Philip was my first thought though.  Gab may also wonder if Phil told Liz that he was asked to defect by the baby momma.  Once she gets that little piece of information, and remembers her actions and Phil's during that time?  She may feel, as many of us do, that Philip was being set up to check his loyalty, AND that Misha is bullshit.

 

Hi, long time lurker, but I made an account to ask about something that was bugging me in the recap. I thought the reason the radio broadcast wasn't well tuned was because he was somehow listening to an overseas broadcast. I don't know anything about radio, but I don't think the BBC was normally heard on American radio back then (I was 8 in 1982 but wouldn't have been listening to news radio).

 

It was definitely an overseas broadcast, I sincerely doubt they trust American news as a source.

Why hasn't Taffet been giving lie detector tests to everyone who had access to Gadd's office? That is certainly what they would do in the real world. The FBI/CIA love those things. And although Martha may be a fairly competent amateur snoop, there is no way she's beating a lie detector test.

It's only the very next day, or perhaps two days.  Preliminary investigation before lie detector tests makes sense to me.  Also, it really needn't be someone who works in that office, it could also be a visitor.  We're probably talking hundreds of people or close to it, and lie detector tests, done well, take time.  ??

 

As far as the way Taffett interviewed Aderholt?  I'm not too fussed about it.  Taffett's job IS to suspect every single one of them, and look for motivations and chinks in the story.  Aderholt IS new, and he is also apparently the only person of color in the office.  Racism exists, hell, the civil rights movement  reached it's heyday less than 20 years earlier, and MLK was killed only 14 years ago.  Resentment and disenfranchisement are motivators for spies.  Being the newest also makes him suspect. 

 

That said, Taffett is treating them all as suspects, because they ARE.  He didn't go any easier on Gaad, and he suspects him too, as Chief there.  I've met Taffetts in my life, and to do their job, many, as he seems to be doing here, will NOT "make friends" or "assume" any one is innocent or even blame free.  At the very least, a good case can be made for incompetence, and with Gaad, yes, the buck stops there.

 

I'd bet the others interviewed left feeling just as torn apart as Martha, Gaad, and Aderholt, but we aren't going to see every interview.

 

Meanwhile, Aderholt handled all of that like a champ, well written, and really well acted.

[Loandbehold]

Ha...well, actually it was sistermagpie who did that, I was the one outlining the person you were thinking of in the first place. 

Back to square one over there, aren't you, LoandBehold? ;-)

 

Damn my senili ... what were we talking about? [Just a joke. I hope nobody takes it personally.]

 

 

I still don't think Phillip is going to kill Martha. It is an easy plot development. Elizabeth and Gabriel are going to tell him to but I don't think it is going to happen. When has this show ever gone for the easy plot development? If it had Nina would be dead by now.

I see what you're saying. But, I can also see Martha providing a description of "Clark." While Stan wasn't able to recognize Elizabeth from the sketch, it would be harder to believe that he wouldn't recognize Philip. So, if she tells him that she's going to have to provide a description, I can see him having to kill her.

[blixie]

Yeah I think it's Martha that has to disappear and quick, and if she's smart enough she will do just that. The best case scenario is she goes to Taffett she's alive but in jail for a very very long time, or the KGB kills her. Phillip could plead ignorance if she splits, and her trail would be cold (put it in letter Jane Austen! And then burn the letter Jane Austen!) I just think unlike Nina no one other than Phillip is aware there is problem and Taffett doesn't seem overly focused on her. Though I guess if she splits too spontaneously that would move her right up the list. Heh. Poor Martha indeed.

[sistermagpie]

I thought Gabriel was genuinely surprised as well.  Along with what others have said, I sensed a bit of an "oh shit" from him.  Possible reasons?  Philip and Elizabeth being closer than he believed.  Elizabeth being less emotional, since it's not her kid, and possibly able to analyze this more clearly than Philip was my first thought though.

 

 

Yeah, I thought Gabriel's reaction was really fascinating. Because on one hand I don't think he would ever completely discount the idea Philip would tell Elizabeth--he has to think of all possibilities. But the first thing Philip said upon being told was "Did you tell Elizabeth?" or something like that and Gabriel was all "Of course not!" Up until now Gabriel has been completely successful in working P&E separately. Ever since that first meeting where Elizabeth said they were working Paige and Philip was horrified. I don't even know if they've had any joint meetings since then, but even if they did, he's clearly got separate things going with both of them. In Born Again he got so far as to send Elizabeth out to move on Paige without Philip and pressuring Philip to sleep with Kimmie via his secret love child who may or may not exist.

 

But that very high point led P&E to do exactly the opposite of what they did back in S1 when Grannie used the same play. Back then Philip got angry at Elizabeth for working against him with the Centre (telling them her suspicions of him), Elizabeth got defensive, Philip lied about Irina, Elizabeth found out and it all blew up. This time it started out the same--Philip got angry at Elizabeth, Elizabeth got defensive. But then Elizabeth apologized--not because she regrets trying to turn Paige but because she cared about hurting him, and Philip wanted her to know what he was feeling. This is a new thing and might lead to some unraveling of Gabriel's plans. For the first time, even if it's only tentative, Elizabeth is on Philip's side against Gabriel--and Philip isn't manipulating her or pressuring her into it either. 

 

Not that Gabriel can't regroup from this. But I was fascinated wondering just what was going through his mind at Elizabeth coming to him about this. The truth always binds people together on this show, and this is no longer a truth between Gabriel and Philip. Gabriel shared it with Philip for manipulation (which Philip must know) and Philip shared it with Elizabeth in actual honesty. This also makes Mischa something like Elizabeth's stepchild--she's not been put on the outside of Irina and Philip due to this being her child. She's assuming the role of protector/family to him as Philip's wife--and I think you're right that if he isn't real, Elizabeth might have the objectivity to question it when Philip doesn't. That makes Philip stronger, as usual, to have Elizabeth as his other half.

 

Interesting also that Elizabeth asking Gabriel to get Mischa out parallels Philip's original thoughts on Elizabeth's mother and Elizabeth having a visit. Then he was the person who wanted her to have the human connection and she dismissed it. Now she's doing it for him.

 

It's only the very next day, or perhaps two days.  Preliminary investigation before lie detector tests makes sense to me.  Also, it really needn't be someone who works in that office, it could also be a visitor.  We're probably talking hundreds of people or close to it, and lie detector tests, done well, take time.  ??

 

 

Yes, I agree. It made sense as a preliminary thing to just start interviewing everybody. They can always work up to lie detector tests. 

[Chaos Theory]

Everyone is assuming that this show is going to go on forever. My major assumption is that it is not. That it had two maybe three years left before it ends. A good show has five maybe six years in it and we are in year three. Year three and the big arc is "let's turn Paige" and we are still at a snails crawl at even that and I think that is a brilliant thing about the show. Turning Paige is less about actually turning Paige and has become a morality arc. Paige still has no clue who her parents are and I can very well see her not being when the season ends. I can also see her father making a desperate move to protect her.

Again it all depends on how long you see the show lasting. If you are on the five year plan it is possible that Martha goes to her bosses and confesses everything and goes on a similar journey as Nina. If you are on the ten year plan then Martha is probably dead. Personally i am on the five year plan.

[RedHawk]

It's only the very next day, or perhaps two days.

 

 

It was the same day, wasn't it? Last week in "Walter Taffet" we saw the day the bug was found, and that night Martha made Clark take her to his apartment. That episode ended with the next day, when Philip and Elizabeth went to the diner and threw the South African guys in the van. In this episode, it's that same day but later in the afternoon when Martha and Aderholt are questioned by Taffet while Philip, Elizabeth, and Ncgobo do their own brand of questioning in the abandoned warehouse. That same evening/night Ncgobo and Philip sit in the car and discuss war and wives, Elizabeth goes home and is questioned by Paige. Gaad questions the mailbot and Martha questions Clark. 

 

A scene at that facility in Siberia raised a question: Are we now in January 1983? In Vasili's office (the Rezidentura guy who Nina set up), there's a calendar that clearly read "1983". So we've skipped over Christmas, which is ok by me for the story purposes. I like that we get details sometimes that give us a more or less exact date, but I don't require an exact timeline (or holiday decorations), just a plausible one. However, it does always seem to be winter on this show, which kinda makes me laugh. 

Edited March 19, 2015 by RedHawk

[Blakeston]

I think the first pic was Derek Luke but the second pic was not.  That said, as a black man I wouldn't be offended if they didn't have a second pic for Luke and had to use a substitute actor.  I'll assume that they couldn't find someone who looked much like Luke and just had to settle with who was available.

I honestly have to wonder if it won't end up being a plot point. If they didn't have a second photo of Derek Luke available, why not just leave the photo out of that story?

[Penman61]

I suppose from a pure story focus perspective, one might complain about the South Africa or Central America subplots.

 

Historically, however, these proxy fights continents away were the fronts in the Cold War; they were its defining characteristic.  So I personally think dramatizing these conflicts--and showing the horrific violence enacted at a very human scale--is one of the most amazing political things I've seen on fictional television.  Think about it: We watched a black South African horrifically murder a white South African while Russian KGB agents posing as suburban Americans looked on...in Maryland (or VA?), USA.  I think it's the essence of this show.  YMMV.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Penman61

[kikaha]

Why hasn't Taffet been giving lie detector tests to everyone who had access to Gadd's office? That is certainly what they would do in the real world. The FBI/CIA love those things. And although Martha may be a fairly competent amateur snoop, there is no way she's beating a lie detector test.

 

Exactly right.  And this is still another reason I don't see how Phillip can let Martha live.  She could ruin them all. 

[kikaha]

Martha is now compromised and a danger to Phillip.

So the only question seems to be, how does he kill her without bringing too much scrutiny to her private life, which might reveal something about him?

Two things could help accomplish that.  One, make it look like a suicide, complete with 'her' note of shame for betraying her country.  And then, the KGB needs to create enough misdirection, enough sleight of hand, to point the finger at entirely different parties.  e.g. could leave some other person's fingerprints in her apartment.  Drop other clues that back up the story. 

 

The FBI would interview Martha's parents.  How close a resemblance could they reconstruct of Clark, working with a police artist? 

 

i

[RedHawk]

The FBI would interview Martha's parents.  How close a resemblance could they reconstruct of Clark, working with a police artist?

 

 

I'm guessing Martha sent them an 8x10 wedding photo. 

 

I suppose from a pure story focus perspective, one might complain about the South Africa or Central America subplots.

 

 

As the person who wrote a complaining post right after last night's episode, I appreciate your comments, Penman61, and you are totally right. Sometimes I get a little frustrated when I want to see how some other story line plays out (Clark and Martha, for example). Then I calm down, think over the episode, and realize that the South African story needed to be told/seen for the overall plot to advance. I'm more appreciative now. I just want every episode to be two hours long because one hour is never enough.

 

Everyone is assuming that this show is going to go on forever. My major assumption is that it is not. That it had two maybe three years left before it ends.

 

 

I was thinking about this last night. I have never imagined it would go on forever, or to the fall of the Wall even. Not even sure I want it to. It will crush me if the show has to end without ending and yet I don't think it can go on being this good for another, say, 5 years. In order for this show to be a success in terms of artistic storytelling, I think the writers need to know how many seasons/episodes they have left. My feeling is that two more seasons would serve.

[Helena Dax]

Ouch, Martha. I think she realized her best  choice for survival is to  work for Clark, whoever he is. But that isn't going  to last, she isn't that kind of person. I'm  really curious about her fate because it seems that killing her would raise a lot of questions. Even if they disguise it as a suicide, what about her parents? Are  they going to kill them too?

 

The way that guy  was killed was horrible. I'm surprised the blond kid didn't soil  his trousers after watching that and I agree with Philip and Elizabeth: I don't think he'll try again. 

 

I didn't remember Vassily. Nina's in a difficult position, but I'm pretty sure she'll succeed. 

[attica]

It was definitely an overseas broadcast

 

Yeah, the announcer id'd it as BBC.

 

I liked how Martha, even as she must've been shitting bricks, was calm enough to know a man (of executive rank) asking about office supplies could be handled with an eyeroll and a "Srsly?" Because you know that Taffett couldn't find the supply closet with a map.

 

The mail robot didn't hit back. Must be one of Asimov's!

[maczero]

For me, it's more interesting to see how Martha responds to the situation rather than Phillip.  Honestly, he has her life in his hands so the predictable thing to do is frame her and make it look like she committed suicide because of guilt.  I think the riskier storytelling move would be to have Martha somehow turn the tables on Phillip and have him in a position of weakness.  Don't ask me how but I'd like to see her get some payback rather than be used and discarded once Clark's op has been compromised.  

[Shriekingeel]

I hope this spells the end of this absurd South African plot. Again I point out that illegals placed in Washington are incredibly valuable to the Soviets, and loaning them out on this stupid adventure featuring broad-daylight assassinations and lynchings is not something the KGB would ever ever do. The whole thing just feels like filler to use up part of the season because the other plots (Philip & Lolita, Martha's Dilemma, The Adventures of Nina, Stan the Flounder, Oleg Won't Leave For Some Unknown Reason, and Paige Wises Up) were a little thin.

[Umbelina]

I need a screen cap of that Wedding Photo!  Stat.  Can't find it so far via google.  WAS there one?

 

The easy answer is to have Martha visit mom and dad and all of them have a horrible accident, after any photos are removed.  House fire or gas leak or boating accident, or even a car accident returning home from dinner.

 

Martha would never willingly work for the KGB, so what other group could Philip come up with?  Top secret mission from the President who trusts no one?  Some "sexy" country trying to save itself from nuclear war between the USA and Russia?  It should be interesting what he comes up with laying awake all night.

 

ETA

I think Gadd HAS been incompetent.  He's an FBI chief in frickin' Washington, presumably a high target area, and files were left all over the damn place, he hasn't done a bug check in years, no security cameras, etc.  Pretty fucking sloppy security.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

I hope this spells the end of this absurd South African plot. Again I point out that illegals placed in Washington are incredibly valuable to the Soviets, and loaning them out on this stupid adventure featuring broad-daylight assassinations and lynchings is not something the KGB would ever ever do.

 

 

But the same can be said for pretty much everything they do. It's a basic conceit of the show that in this universe, this is what Illegals do. They're nothing like the real people. It's following the rules set out by the show.

[Shriekingeel]

But the same can be said for pretty much everything they do. It's a basic conceit of the show that in this universe, this is what Illegals do. They're nothing like the real people. It's following the rules set out by the show.

And that willing suspension of disbelief is required for a great deal of TV drama, whether it be superhero powers or vampires or time travel or whatever. It just bugs me when dramas set in real historical times go off on these wild ahistorical tangents. My issue, I guess.

It would not surprise me, given this enormous breach of security on Gaad's watch and his resistance to common-sense measures like security cameras, to see him cashiered.

[ruby24]

So, how exactly does Martha know that Clark isn't who he says he is? When she says that Walter Taffet "is you," I was confused- is it because Taffet's job was the cover that Philip gave himself? I forgot what he said his job was.

 

I sort of believed what he was saying when he said that he loved her though. It seemed more like it was him talking there and not so much "Clark," so does Philip really love Martha in some way?

 

I hope he doesn't kill her.

[Umbelina]

So, how exactly does Martha know that Clark isn't who he says he is? When she says that Walter Taffet "is you," I was confused- is it because Taffet's job was the cover that Philip gave himself? I forgot what he said his job was.

 

I sort of believed what he was saying when he said that he loved her though. It seemed more like it was him talking there and not so much "Clark," so does Philip really love Martha in some way?

 

I hope he doesn't kill her.

Yes.

 

Taffet has the job Philip SAID he had.

[sistermagpie]

I sort of believed what he was saying when he said that he loved her though. It seemed more like it was him talking there and not so much "Clark," so does Philip really love Martha in some way?

 

 

Philip always fines that place in his brain to make it real! But yeah, I don't think he loves her romantically at all, but he certainly cares about her as a person enough to want to protect her and not kill her. Not enough to never do it or to not use her the way he's been using her, but he feels some responsibility to her. He's not lying when he says he doesn't want to hurt her.

 

I totally agree about Gaad. He really hasn't had very good control over anything--Stan even murdered somebody and caused a big incident too. Why wouldn't he be held responsible for a bug in his own office for over a year? Even if Martha planted it it's still his job to check for these things.

[Umbelina]

I just remembered another comment Baer made on the RED video.  He said that pre- 9/11 a KGB agent flashed his green American Express badge at CIA headquarters (back then they had green badges to get in) at a harried guard, and was admitted into the CIA headquarters.  They found him on the 5th floor or something and escorted him out.   So maybe Gaad wasn't THAT bad.  Ha.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Umbelina

[Ellaria]

For me, it's more interesting to see how Martha responds to the situation rather than Phillip.  Honestly, he has her life in his hands so the predictable thing to do is frame her and make it look like she committed suicide because of guilt.  I think the riskier storytelling move would be to have Martha somehow turn the tables on Phillip and have him in a position of weakness.  Don't ask me how but I'd like to see her get some payback rather than be used and discarded once Clark's op has been compromised.  

 

Same here. Phillip is conflicted right now about many things: Paige, Misha, Kimmie. I think that he carries some guilt over Annelise's end.  I also think that he has something resembling "feelings" for Martha. Not love or passion but "something" that may cause him to hesitate. If Martha acts quickly she may be able to turn the tables on him. Having said that, I'm not sure what would be her best course of action. Does she go to Gaad and admit all? 

 

Then there is The Gun. It has to come into play soon. I don't think that Phillip will kill Martha. At least I hope not.

 

The whole thing just feels like filler to use up part of the season because the other plots (Philip & Lolita, Martha's Dilemma, The Adventures of Nina, Stan the Flounder, Oleg Won't Leave For Some Unknown Reason, and Paige Wises Up) were a little thin.

 

You forgot about the Milky Way Defector. I agree that these plots have stalled a bit. I was glad to see Arkady again. I'm not terribly interested in Nina, Vasilly and the scientist at the moment. I want to see how and when it circles back to the main story line. Regardless, I'm sure that Nina will be successful and will get sent back to the US to resume the love triangle with Stan and Oleg.

[benteen]

Yeah, I meant Nina instead of Nadia.  I don't know why I wrote Nadia. 

 

Storyline wise, they are juggling a lot.

Edited March 20, 2015 by benteen

[ruby24]

I personally think they just really don't want to get rid of the actress who plays Nina, because she's so good. And she is, but honestly, I'm not sure why we need to follow what's going on with her in Russia.

[shura]

The mail robot didn't hit back. Must be one of Asimov's!

 

The season's still young, and judging by the blinking red light, the thing is getting PISSED. Btw, does anyone else find it bizarre that the mail robot has been featured so much? I think some major characters, like Oleg, have had less screen time. 

[dr pepper]

Right up until the line "we have our own way", i had completely forgotten about necklacing. But when he said that, i immediately realized what was coming, i was just surprised that he already had a tire handy. But i thought maybe they'd show the start, and cut to another scene at the first screen, then return after it was over. But they didn't :(.

I wonder how KGB cleanup squad is going to handle that one.