S03.E08: Divestment

[RedHawk]

Btw, does anyone else find it bizarre that the mail robot has been featured so much? I think some major characters, like Oleg, have had less screen time.

 

 

It probably has a really good agent.

[dr pepper]

I didn't quite notice it either. Read the first discussions and realized I had thought possibly he (the actor) was Hispanic or bi-racial. Really loved how he/Aderholt handled Taffet's questions. We got a lot of his back story, too. 

 

I wish that mailbot had a voice mechanism that would activate when it was being kicked: "I am under attack!" and then it zooms away.

 

I just assumed he was a euro american from the melting pot-- with a bit of curl and tan. But then, everyone's a little ethnic compared to Stan.

I think Gabriel was genuinely surprised that Elizabeth knew about Philip's son. I think Gabriel still views the marriage as a cover and was surprised at the level of communication between the two. This is American marriage communication.

As for Martha she is working on pure survival mode right now and I am loving it. She is an intelligent woman who got played by her weakest emotions now she is playing towards her strengths and it a sight to behold.

 

Agreed. She went into the interrogation having decided to keep her secrets. And having so decided, she'd metaphorically put her back to the wall. No retreat, no surrender, no crying, come what may.

[dr pepper]

I think Nina is getting off lightly but, ignoring the fact that we need Annett on the show, I think this could really prove that Nina has a particular set of skills. I just hope she does it without honey trapping the guy. I don't know how connected to her is Oleg's story but pissing off his dad seems tangential. I can only think it leads to a reunion with Nina in Moscow somewhere. But if we're to keep both characters in Philip and Elizabeth's world, the writers need to start including them more in the main story arcs.

 

It's like a romance novel. Proud, handsome young Oleg chafes against his father's control, but what can he do? He's stuck in a position with little scope for his ideas, little chance at making a place of his own. Dutifully he travels to Austria to pick up a load of black market digital equipment, then he flies home to deliver it to the Technical Gulag. He opens the door-- and violins play as he comes face to face with Nina, the woman he thought he had lost to a cold and cruel fate! But now they are together again-- and nothing will stop them!

[Dowel Jones]

I'm obviously in the minority here, but, from my experience working with computers in the office and such, all I can say is DIE ROBOT DIE!  But enough about that.

 

I'm not so sure that Martha would face jail time, although her chances of finding a significant job afterward would be somewhere near zero and minus one.  If she were to throw herself on the mercy of Gaad and Taffett,  explaining that she was duped, it is possible that the FBI would avoid the publicity of a trial and just lose her somewhere.  Walking the tightrope with Philip is infinitely more dangerous. 

 

Rewatching the execution scene, I am puzzled why the RSA operative, a trained field agent, did not up and run for the exit.  He had to know he was going to die anyway, and his legs weren't shackled.  Then again, that was the purpose of the scene. 

 

Poor Paige.  Her world seems to be spinning on the wrong axis.  Se's wondering what, or whom, to believe now.

[SlackerInc]

 

What is up with Arkady not packing Oleg off back home after repeated requests from his powerful father? I'd love to believe that Arkady just cares that much, but we've seen nothing to indicate that's the case.  I wonder, is it some kind of Iron Curtain Power Game I'm just not getting?  Is Arkady waiting for an even better assignment than being a Chief in the U.S.?  What's his game? 

 

I think he likes and respects Oleg, and feels strong enough in his position, and is a stubborn enough personality, to not just let the Railroad Minister push him around.

[Boundary]

Yup, they had to stand there and coldly observe without flinching, but both were clearly bothered and glanced away a couple of times. Elizabeth looked like she had to swallow hard at one point, and Philip looked at her once as if to check that 1) she was ok, and 2) she was having the same reaction to it.

 

BTW, massive kudos to the actors there, it must have been pages and pages of screenplay that played out for a few seconds just in their eyes.

 

I'm not so sure that Martha would face jail time, although her chances of finding a significant job afterward would be somewhere near zero and minus one.  If she were to throw herself on the mercy of Gaad and Taffett,  explaining that she was duped, it is possible that the FBI would avoid the publicity of a trial and just lose her somewhere.  Walking the tightrope with Philip is infinitely more dangerous. 

 

Gaad, Taffet and Stan all knew it was the KGB that infiltrated them. Martha is not going to escape prison time, she must know that. However, she will give valuable leads to the Illegals couple they've all been pursuing and she'd have to do that for patriotic reasons but I don't see how she could use that as a bargaining chip. Philip is infinitely more dangerous, only because regardless of any personal guarantees from him, his people in Moscow will want her dead. But by confessing to Clark she basically took Gaad and Tuffet off the table; she would have been even more valuable to them if she hadn't warned Philip/Clark. I think she's inching closer to taking Philip's "protection" and becoming an Annelise (who believed she was helping Swedish intelligence). It's dangerous, there's no good way out (as Nina proves) but maybe she thinks that having Philip as a direct threat must be worse than trying to get on his good side. Talk about a rock and hard place.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Boundary

[kikaha]

 I think she's inching closer to taking Philip's "protection" and becoming an Annelise (who believed she was helping Swedish intelligence).

One problem with that is that Martha has little or no intelligence to offer anymore.  i.e. she's no longer an asset.  But she's one hell of a liability.  Just something as simple as a lie detector test could blow Phillip and Elizabeth out of the water.  Or the FBI's decision to investigate Martha -- after all, she must be on a short list of possible suspects. 

[Anne Elk]

BRAVO ELIZABETH. Clearly I did not give her enough credit after last week's episode. She quite neatly turned the tables on Gabriel's little effort to get Phillip to knuckle under by threatening his son. That woman is one hell of an operator. I'm not sure she believes in the existence of the son but she obviously didn't like Gabriel trying to emotionally manipulate Phillip, which is nice to see. Despite their differences of opinion about Paige, she is still committed to her husband.

 

Meanwhile, Phillip shows himself to be quite talented at emotional manipulation as well. What he said to Martha sounded like he was reassuring her with loving words, but there's the underlying message that Clark is the only one who will protect her from whatever she's gotten herself mixed up in. She basically has to go along with him or face the full consequences of what she's done, which at this point would be either a prison sentence or death at the hands of the KGB. I'm not sure Martha has really faced the full meaning of that yet but she knows she's in deep do-do and he's all she's got.

 

What is going on with the stuff at the Rezidentura and Nina's storyline? They can't keep this up with half the show taking place over in a whole separate country and no connection to anything. According to the historical timeline, the USSR is about to go through a very volatile period, with all the leadership changes and the old guard dying off. I'd like to see them address that on the show but I'm not sure how to get there from what we're seeing now. I sure hope we're not just going to watch Nina endlessly seduce and betray people, and I have no idea where they're going with Oleg and his father.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Anne Elk

[stillshimpy]

Rewatching the execution scene, I am puzzled why the RSA operative, a trained field agent, did not up and run for the exit.  He had to know he was going to die anyway, and his legs weren't shackled.  Then again, that was the purpose of the scene.

 

Well they actually offered that guy money to just get gone for good and all.  That was the opening bid by Phillip and Elizabeth.  Give up his cause and retire wealthy as hell, live the good life, wine and dine.  This guy was such a hardcore buttmunch that he told them that wasn't for him.  I think knowing full well that the alternative was death, even if he didn't know "I'll be burned alive, whee!"  

 

God, that was a terrifying scene.   The P.TV front-page piece/recap sort of mildly speculates that maybe Hans will go after the deluded student who was helping "No thanks, you sons of impurity, I'd rather burn!" guy, who even Elizabeth was in favor of letting go, but I don't think there's much chance of Hans trying to catch that guy, unless it is to catch up to and offer to buddy up for life on the lam from any political causes.  Hans was fully freaked by the Diner Abduction in Broad Daylight, so I imagine he needed fresh shorts after that "burn racist, burn" moment.  

 

Again, I think it's pretty significant that we've heard previously about Soviet soldiers in Afghanistan being found flayed and then burned alive....and Elizabeth asked Gabriel to get Mischa out of harm's way after they both had front-seat view to what that looks like.  Yikes. 

 

BRAVO ELIZABETH. Clearly I did not give her enough credit after last week's episode. She quite neatly turned the tables on Gabriel's little effort to get Phillip to knuckle under by threatening his son.

 

Well, she certainly figured out how to take away some fodder for Phillip's nightmares, but she didn't get Mischa into the clear.  If he exists and is sent back to Russia, that just means he has level travel time between whatever featureless barracks he inhabits and the nearest Gulag.  He'd no longer be under the threat of the Afghan soldiers, he's only be under KGB threat if Phillip doesn't toe-the-line.  

If anything, returning him to Soviet soil puts him more firmly in their control.  

Edited March 20, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Haleth]

Btw, does anyone else find it bizarre that the mail robot has been featured so much?

 

It starts with kicking the mail robot, ends with the Cylons destroying the planet.  This has all happened before and will all happen again.

 

I was surprised Martha did so well with the interrogation.  She has never seemed clever enough to pull off such a guileless performance.  Perhaps she is playing Clark too?  At the end of the episode she was pretending to sleep but was thinking about what Clark had said.  Maybe she realizes how dangerous it would be to make him nervous, so she played along but intends to run to Taffett first thing in the morning?  At least that's what I hope.  (And there is always the gun, but that is sure to end badly if she pulls it out.)

 

At this point I can't wait for Elizabeth and Philip to get caught.

 

I'm going to try to forget ever seeing the burning scene.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Haleth

[Loandbehold]

The mail robot says a lot, even though it has few lines. Which makes it a really compelling actor. I mean, who can take their eyes off it when it's in a scene?

[sistermagpie]

However, she will give valuable leads to the Illegals couple they've all been pursuing and she'd have to do that for patriotic reasons but I don't see how she could use that as a bargaining chip

 

 

Does Martha even know of the existence of Illegals? I know she could still wind up giving them to the FBI if only by putting them onto Clark and once they catch him they can find out that's what he is, but Martha probably has no idea how important Clark is to them. He must be valuable in some way, of course, she knows that. But she might not know she's sleeping with Moby Dick. (Heh. That takes on different connotations knowing Clark and Martha...)

 

I was surprised Martha did so well with the interrogation.  She has never seemed clever enough to pull off such a guileless performance.  Perhaps she is playing Clark too?

 

 

One of the things I like about this is the way they take it for granted that you don't need to be clever or playing everyone else to be able to pull of a guileless performance. She knew she was in trouble, decided to lie, and just went in pretending she wasn't the one who planted the bug. It probably wasn't that hard to imagine what she'd say if was innocent.

 

She could still run to Taffett in the morning without having been playing Clark. All he knows is he calmed her down in that moment. She didn't pretend to be devoted to him forever or anything. I think she's genuinely confused. I mean, if she was really wanting to go to Taffett what's the point of talking to Clark first? WAs there really anything he could say that would make it all better to the point where she should keep lying to Taffett? If Clark's at all on the up and up she can tell Taffett the truth. If he's not he's one of the bad guys.

 

He'd no longer be under the threat of the Afghan soldiers, he's only be under KGB threat if Phillip doesn't toe-the-line.

 

 

I really hope more and more that this kid is made up because he's honestly been nothing but a pawn since his introduction. First Irina pulls him out of nowhere to have some effect on Philip after not seeing him for 20 years--and she's even announcing that she's going to run away which would have totally had bad consequences for the kid. Now he's dragged in to keep Philip in line--whatever allegedly happens to him he's going to be under threat to keep Philip in line, whether he's intentionally stuck in the worst parts of the war to keep Philip scared or under house arrest and threat from the KGB.

[Loandbehold]

Thinking about what the KGB could do, I believe the worst problem is that "Clark" didn't know who Taffet was. Putting that aside, I can see two ways to explain to Martha what's going on. First, Taffet doesn't know that Clark was assigned to investigate Gaad's section. Not unusual in a a government office for one hand not knowing what the other is doing. Even in the same department. The second thing is that OPR had to send someone to "investigate" when Gaad discovered and reported the bug. So, Taffet comes in and accuses Gaad being either responsible for the bug, or being incompetent. He interviews Martha and asks her about pens and the supply cabinet, and he interviews the new agent and basically accuses him of being the "angry black man." All these things can be looked at as a thorough investigation, but designed to elicit no useful information. 

[shura]

It's like a romance novel. Proud, handsome young Oleg chafes against his father's control, but what can he do? He's stuck in a position with little scope for his ideas, little chance at making a place of his own. Dutifully he travels to Austria to pick up a load of black market digital equipment, then he flies home to deliver it to the Technical Gulag. He opens the door-- and violins play as he comes face to face with Nina, the woman he thought he had lost to a cold and cruel fate! But now they are together again-- and nothing will stop them!

 

How committed are you to the violins? I'm thinking let's chuck them, bring in guitars and do the whole thing in Spanish. It's going to be beautiful! La historia de dos agentes amorosos del Comite para la Seguridad del Estado... 

 

Speaking of the KGB, Martha has got to be at least considering the possibility that Clark is a KGB agent, right? She knows he is not what he says he is, she knows he wears a wig, she works in the counterintelligence department of the FBI at the height of the Cold War. They must have some kind of training in the FBI about recognizing when a spy is trying to work with you, mustn't they? Gaad and the rest are thinking "KGB", is it possible that Martha is not?

Edited March 21, 2015 by shura

[sistermagpie]

I assume she's got to consider KGB--though she may think he's an American or something else working for them rather than assuming this is an actual Russian. That's a good reason for her to not want Clark to elaborate about who he works for.

 

She may still think Jennifer and his mother are his real family and not in on it.

[5cents-worth]

Martha is now compromised and a danger to Phillip.

So the only question seems to be, how does he kill her without bringing too much scrutiny to her private life, which might reveal something about him?

 

What if they "kill" Clark? It would be easier to stage his death than to come up with a plausible story for Martha's.  And then she can a secret widow instead of a secret wife.

 

On another note, I've been wondering who is going to clean up the mess from Venter's tire fire?  Wouldn't there be residual...stuff that would need to be disposed? Even in unused locations around a heavily populated area, there's a risk of the body being discovered by a random person.  That mess has to be worse than a dead body in a suitcase - at the very least a large grease stain on the concrete.

[blixie]

 

Gaad and the rest are thinking "KGB", is it possible that Martha is not?

 

I think like someone said I'm not sure how entirely rationally she's thinking at this point beyond I'm in such deep shit. I think she realizes he's most likely an enemy agent, but beyond that she's not thinking, she's scared and confused. Unfortunately she confronted him, I hope she realizes quickly that IF he is an agent letting him know she knows makes her his loose end, and that she runs either to Taffet or to Tahiti.

[RedHawk]

I think he likes and respects Oleg, and feels strong enough in his position, and is a stubborn enough personality, to not just let the Railroad Minister push him around.

 

 

In addition, I'm getting the feeling that Arkady not only isn't so thrilled about leadership and what's really going on back home, but that he actually enjoys and appreciates aspects of his life in the good ole U.S.A. He told Oleg that no one in his Rezidentura was transferred back if he didn't want to be, and he's going to stand by that.

 

I hope she realizes quickly that IF he is an agent letting him know she knows makes her his loose end, and that she runs either to Taffet or to Tahiti.

 

 

Apparently there's $1 million floating around as get the hell out of Dodge money. Martha should take that and Tahiti. (Not that I believe Philip and team were actually going to give Venter that $1 million option.)

Does she think he's KGB? Well, although it doesn't seem to have been within earshot of Martha, we've seen "KGB" thrown around a couple of times by Taffet and maybe also Aderholt or Gaad, so it's quite possible she does. They seemed to know that it was a KGB-style bug quite quickly.

[RedHawk]

On another note, I've been wondering who is going to clean up the mess from Venter's tire fire?

 

 

Maybe that's why we saw Hans booking it out of there? Low man on the totem pole and all, needs to be trained in body disposal...

 

Actually, he was just going to the car or van, but I had to laugh when I thought maybe he ran because he thought he'd get THAT job.

The mail robot says a lot, even though it has few lines. Which makes it a really compelling actor. I mean, who can take their eyes off it when it's in a scene?

 

 

The mail robot knows everything. 

Edited March 20, 2015 by RedHawk

[shura]

I know, just give the robot its own spin-off already!

 

Why have those things not caught on, by the way? Too clunky?

[RedHawk]

Why have those things not caught on, by the way? Too clunky?

 

 

Maybe in an ironic turn of events they were replaced by humans?

 

I guess they lost their jobs to new technology: e-mail, PDFs, etc. I seem to recall seeing one somewhere in an office here in DC in the mid '90s. I remember thinking, "Oh yeah, I've heard about these." Seemed odd/intriguing to see one, but this was before e-mail caught on and offices still had lots of paper moving around.

 

Quite recently I've seen them used to deliver medications in hospitals, just replacing the file folders with trays containing little pill cups. They are locked like the mailbot is, so only a nurse or doctor with a key can take the meds from them.

Edited March 20, 2015 by RedHawk

[RedHawk]

The P.TV front-page piece/recap sort of mildly speculates that maybe Hans will go after the deluded student who was helping "No thanks, you sons of impurity, I'd rather burn!" guy, who even Elizabeth was in favor of letting go, but I don't think there's much chance of Hans trying to catch that guy, unless it is to catch up to and offer to buddy up for life on the lam from any political causes.

 

 

No kidding. Hans got quite the introduction to hard-core activists. Between Venter and Ncgobo, I think he's ready to hand in his South African passport and emigrate to a gentler life in the Netherlands. Todd's probably already there.

Edited March 20, 2015 by RedHawk

[henripootel]

What did Clark mean by "is it enough that I love you and would do anything to protect you or do you need more?" Not sure what he was implying by that.

This is Clark's hook into Martha - he's just giving it a tug.  If she balks or looks like she might get a bit too inquisitive about his motivations (as opposed to her's), they might have to move to 'plan b'.  This might involve either money (unlikely to work), ego ('you're helping change the world!' = unlikely to work, even if they 'false flag' her like they did with Annelise), or appeal to her compromised position ('you're in it, one way or the other').  This last one seems likely to tip Martha over into spilling her guts, regardless of the consequences.  My guess: she's about to have a driving accident.

Does Martha even know of the existence of Illegals?

 

 

Unquestionably.  Everybody who works with cleared stuff is given a briefing on such matters, naturally, including (I remember friends mentioning) where not to go hang out, as they were known places trolled by foreign intelligence services.  The Sovs were big, of course, but everybody spies on everybody to one extent or another.  Heck, not long after this time (god I'm old) I was working for IBM manufacturing computers, right out of high school and making more money than I'd ever seen.  We weren't anywhere near DC but even we were told not to go bragging about what we did and to be suspicious of folks who wanted to hear more.  We thought this was hilarious cuz why would anybody talk to low-level grunts like us when all they had to do was buy one of the new computers.  If they'd sent an agent who looked like Elizabeth, I'da been happy to sing about all my 'secret knowledge' ('screw this thing into that thing, push it down the line').

On another note, I've been wondering who is going to clean up the mess from Venter's tire fire?  Wouldn't there be residual...stuff that would need to be disposed?

Pretty sure that's not the point of 'necklacing'.  Yeah, it actually had a name, and you want the victim to be found.

Edited March 20, 2015 by henripootel

[Mozelle]

I personally think they just really don't want to get rid of the actress who plays Nina, because she's so good. And she is, but honestly, I'm not sure why we need to follow what's going on with her in Russia.

 

I had the thought that it's starting to shape up like Boardwalk Empire, when they started heavily with stories out of Atlantic City by season three. 

[Dev F]

What did Clark mean by "is it enough that I love you and would do anything to protect you or do you need more?" Not sure what he was implying by that. 

 

I think it plugged into one of the main themes of the episode. It really was all about divestment -- when push comes to shove, what precious things would you be willing to give up, and what is so precious to you that you'd do anything to hold on to it?

 

You see it in the contrast between Phillip and Ncgobo: the latter admits that sometimes he can't even remember his wife's face, but fighting his war is more important than family. Whereas Phillip is willing to risk the security of the mission to save a boy who reminds him of the son he's never met -- and Elizabeth, of all people, is willing to vouch for his decision out of love for her husband.

 

Similarly, Agent Aderholt is willing to give up any grievance of race or class to embrace the opportunities the FBI provides him with. He frames it as a conscious choice to divest himself of such concerns: "Being new isn't a bad thing -- new beginnings, new blood. I don't think much about the rest of it."

 

And that's the choice that Clark provides Martha with at the end of the episode. Is her love for him more important than her need to know the truth, more important than the war she helps her coworkers to fight? Can she just accept that Clark loves her, and not think much about the rest of it?

[Turtle]

I don't think Phillip framing Martha would work because even if she's dead, the FBI will still investigate everyone in her life until they figure who she was connected to. Phillip has a good cover and I know they kept the relationship a secret, but I'd bet the FBI would have a good chance of tracking him down nonetheless. At least, it's a loose end. Having her die in an accident would probably be a better plan. Poor Martha.

I assumed the second picture Paige saw was of someone Gregory was arrested with and Gregory was mentioned in the article. But I also didn't think too much about it, and now I'm curious about all of your theories. If they had one picture, why not two? Or why not just use the same picture?

[blixie]

 

I personally think they just really don't want to get rid of the actress who plays Nina, because she's so good. And she is, but honestly, I'm not sure why we need to follow what's going on with her in Russia.

 

First of all she is AMAZING, she should have had an Emmy nom along with the rest of the cast, but I am honestly enjoying seeing the "other" side of the homeland, it's a great reminder that whatever principals Elizabeth/Philip are fighting for are compromised by totalitarianism.

[Umbelina]

What if they "kill" Clark? It would be easier to stage his death than to come up with a plausible story for Martha's.  And then she can a secret widow instead of a secret wife.

 

On another note, I've been wondering who is going to clean up the mess from Venter's tire fire?  Wouldn't there be residual...stuff that would need to be disposed? Even in unused locations around a heavily populated area, there's a risk of the body being discovered by a random person.  That mess has to be worse than a dead body in a suitcase - at the very least a large grease stain on the concrete.

 

I thought about the whole "kill Clark" thing first off, maybe because NOW I want Martha to stick around.  I think it could work.  Why turn him in and implicate herself if whatever the danger was to the FBI is dead?  Why further ruin her own life by confessing?  I think it's the smartest fix, because if Martha suddenly dies, the FBI will be all over her, her apartment, her neighbors, her parents, all of it.  Clark hasn't be THAT careful.

 

Clark's sister could call her with the bad news, just before she leaves for missionary work in Chili or something.

[Guest]

I think both pictures are Derek Luke.  I went back and looked closely due to all the comments.  In the second one, they really dirtied him up.  He has a big cheesy moustache and sloppy hair and a scowl.  It's a mug shot.  I think they did it on purpose, to contrast.  In the first pic, he looks handsome and like a protester-- triumphant.  Paige smiles a little.  Then in the mug shot he looks like a drug dealing thug.  Paige looks troubled and confused.   

 

Wow, Martha.  I don't know how Phillip's going to not kill her.  She really should've turned herself in to Taffett and had them snag Phillip unaware.  

[gwhh]

I don't think it would be hard for Gabriel to get philip junior transferred from Afghanistan back to the USSR. But he made it out to be a big deal and may not be able to do it to elizabeth. Just to show her who the boss is " the center".

Maybe the mail robot could go undercover as a triple agent for the FBI?

Edited March 21, 2015 by gwhh

[5cents-worth]

I thought about the whole "kill Clark" thing first off, maybe because NOW I want Martha to stick around.  I think it could work.  Why turn him in and implicate herself if whatever the danger was to the FBI is dead?  Why further ruin her own life by confessing?  I think it's the smartest fix, because if Martha suddenly dies, the FBI will be all over her, her apartment, her neighbors, her parents, all of it.  Clark hasn't be THAT careful.

 

Clark's sister could call her with the bad news, just before she leaves for missionary work in Chili or something.

 

Sure - they could even stage a small funeral if needed.  It would be nice for Martha to have closure.

 

Pretty sure that's not the point of 'necklacing'.  Yeah, it actually had a name, and you want the victim to be found.

 

I remember seeing a reference to this as a method of torture/death used in some parts of the world, and that they were occasionally recorded, but I didn't realize that there was intention for the body to be found.  In this case, I woudl think the characters wouldn't want any possible way this could lead back to them, no matter how slight the chance of a connection.  In any case, getting those stains out of the concrete will not be easy.

Edited March 21, 2015 by 5cents-worth

[sistermagpie]

If they'd sent an agent who looked like Elizabeth, I'da been happy to sing about all my 'secret knowledge' ('screw this thing into that thing, push it down the line').

 

 

But I mean, would she specifically be told that there was a section of the KGB living as Americans? Because that seemed like news to Stan & Co. in the pilot. I just wanted to make sure you were saying that you thought yes, Martha would definitely know that specifically rather than just that Martha would be briefed to be on the lookout for spies in general. Of course, even if she knows about Illegals she might not assume Clark is one because he really seems American to her. I can't remember if there's any scenes where Martha refers to the Illegals and knows about who they're looking for. It wouldn't surprise me if she did, I just can't remember if it's confirmed and wasn't sure I should just assume it.

 

I think it plugged into one of the main themes of the episode. It really was all about divestment -- when push comes to shove, what precious things would you be willing to give up, and what is so precious to you that you'd do anything to hold on to it?

 

 

That's brilliant! I had been thinking of it as divesting people of illusions but this is even more to the point (I guess it can be both), especially bringing in that line of Aderholdt's. People are really focusing in this ep on the thing that's their priority and some of them are surprising. For Martha, at least for now, she's choosing Clark and choosing not to investigate him further. Elizabeth surprises at the end by seeming to lean more towards Philip--but I guess in a way Philip and Elizabeth are still both trying to hold on to as much as possible in this ep. They want each other, Elizabeth has a scene trying to get closer to Paige, Philip doesn't want to kill Martha, they both choose to not kill Todd.

 

I think both pictures are Derek Luke.  I went back and looked closely due to all the comments.  In the second one, they really dirtied him up.  He has a big cheesy moustache and sloppy hair and a scowl.  It's a mug shot.  I think they did it on purpose, to contrast.  In the first pic, he looks handsome and like a protester-- triumphant.  Paige smiles a little.  Then in the mug shot he looks like a drug dealing thug.  Paige looks troubled and confused.

 

 

I had wondered that when i first saw it, whether it was just a Derek Luke picture that intentionally didn't look like him. But it's weird because we knew him when he was a drug dealer too and he looked as handsome as ever!

 

I don't think it would be hard for Gabriel to get philip junior transferred from Afghanistan back to the USSR. But he made it out to be a big deal and may not be able to do it to elizabeth. Just to show her who the boss is " the center".

 

 

It's a very big deal if Gabriel's using the idea of Mischa Jr. against Philip. When he told Philip about him he claimed he "didn't want to tell him this way" but the only reason he was saying it was to manipulate him. I think Philip knows very well that the Centre isn't interested in just being nice to him on this issue rather than using it against him. Elizabeth is the one that has the almost childlike faith in the Centre caring about them (despite evidence to the contrary) so she'd be the one to go to Gabriel and ask for it. Interesting that in both cases P&E seem to imagine Elizabeth as the one asking for something rather than Philip. She actually makes this more complicated for Gabriel--unless he just continues to put her off so he can appear to be the nice guy while claiming his hands are tied. He could always say that Irina's situation makes them not want to give him special treatment. Or he could even tell Philip that they offered him a transfer and he chose to stay because he's so loyal to his country and wants to be a hero like his dad!

[SailorGirl]

I think it plugged into one of the main themes of the episode. It really was all about divestment -- when push comes to shove, what precious things would you be willing to give up, and what is so precious to you that you'd do anything to hold on to it?

 

You see it in the contrast between Phillip and Ncgobo: the latter admits that sometimes he can't even remember his wife's face, but fighting his war is more important than family. Whereas Phillip is willing to risk the security of the mission to save a boy who reminds him of the son he's never met -- and Elizabeth, of all people, is willing to vouch for his decision out of love for her husband.

 

Similarly, Agent Aderholt is willing to give up any grievance of race or class to embrace the opportunities the FBI provides him with. He frames it as a conscious choice to divest himself of such concerns: "Being new isn't a bad thing -- new beginnings, new blood. I don't think much about the rest of it."

 

And that's the choice that Clark provides Martha with at the end of the episode. Is her love for him more important than her need to know the truth, more important than the war she helps her coworkers to fight? Can she just accept that Clark loves her, and not think much about the rest of it?

Hmm, interesting perspective and much more in-depth than I was imagining, and a nice tie-in to the title of the episode--I took it much more ominously -- almost as a veiled threat. Not sure what "more" would be but depending on what "more" turn(s)/(ed) out to be, it would not bode well for Martha's longevity on this planet. 

Thanks -- I'm usually more invested in the episodes -- this is a show you have to pay attention to, which is one of the reasons I love it so much, but I've been dealing with a lot of work stress that is distracting me from everything, even really good tv shows that usually provide a good kind of distraction! 

Edited March 21, 2015 by SailorGirl

[Guest]

For Martha, at least for now, she's choosing Clark and choosing not to investigate him further. 

I feel like Martha has no choice.  It's go along with whatever Clark has in mind or get killed.  She gave up all her choices when she let him know she knows he's not who he says he is.  

 

I feel like the divestment in that relationship is now Phillip has to figure out how to divest himself of Martha without killing her.  I can't imagine these characters would recover (in the audiences' eyes) from killing her and her family, though, so I'm guessing he gets her to cover for him, out of fear.  

[90PercentGravity]

Okay, so a couple questions about the final Martha/Clark scene -- does she realize he's not really an oversight agent when she asks him "who are you" and he doesn't answer directly but rather answers with, "I'm the man who loves you." I ask this because when he doesn't answer her, she starts crying and says "what have I done."  Seems to me she is realizing he may not be on the up-and-up -- do we think she's starting to realize he's a KGB spy?

What did Clark mean by "is it enough that I love you and would do anything to protect you or do you need more?" Not sure what he was implying by that. 

 

I thought he was asking if she really wanted to know the truth. Or if she could be satisfied with knowing that much.

 

I sort of believed what he was saying when he said that he loved her though. It seemed more like it was him talking there and not so much "Clark," so does Philip really love Martha in some way?

This is why Matthew Rhys is so amazing. He was so convincing that it was hard to tell if it was just "Clark" saying what she needed to hear or Phillip saying it too.

 

Clark's explanation doesn't have to have anything to do with the KGB. That one woman thought they were spying for Sweden. He just has to come up with something that Martha will believe and be okay with. He doesn't have to convince her to work for the KGB.

[Umbelina]

I think it's much more practical than that.  Killing Martha NOW would cause more issues than it solves.  It's just too suspicious with the FBI investigating her (and everyone else in that office.) 

 

Much simpler for "Clark" to die.  He can't just leave, or she could still confess, or think he's still a threat to the USA.  He dies?  What could possibly be her motivation to confess? 

[Guest]

I thought it was clear that he was telling Martha that she needed to give up on knowing who he is or she'd be killed.  And that he didn't want that to happen and was basically bending the rules for her.

 

I wonder if them going soft is going to bite them in the ass.  That college kid they let live did see Hans without a disguise.  Martha might get patriotic, given the right opportunity.  

[RedheadZombie]

I was surprised that when Philip finally realized the jig is up, he didn't immediately assume Martha was wired, or that he was being set up and about to be arrested.  I think if Clark suddenly "disappeared", Martha has wised up enough not to investigate.  Faking a death will lead into a huge can of worms - death certificate, life insurance, funeral, clearing out his supposed apartment.  It would require Claudia to return and play the grieving mother.

 

I think it would be extremely interesting if Elizabeth insisted Martha be killed, and Philip refuses.  I think Elizabeth is confident in Philip's love, but every once in a while a little jealousy slips in.  It would be even more interesting if after Philip refused, Elizabeth killed Martha herself.  I don't think it will happen, because Martha seems to be written a lot more likable this season.

 

I'm still not trusting Gabriel.  It's possible that Misha does not exist, and now Elizabeth will be even more devoted to Gabriel after he "saves" the non-existent Misha.  She also unintentionally (or otherwise) again revealed Philip's struggles to the higher ups, and is exposing one of his weaknesses.  Philip was careful to show very little reaction upon hearing of Misha being in Afghanistan. I think he distrusts Gabriel almost as much as I do.

 

I thought it was telling that Paige was reading MLK's Why We Can't Wait, a book about non-violent protest.  Elizabeth really doesn't get Paige.  Paige doesn't want to just right the wrongs of the world, she wants to do it in a non-violent manner.  She was already disillusioned that Gregory was a drug dealer, imagine how she'll feel about her parents' high body count.

 

[Dowel Jones]

The mail robot says a lot, even though it has few lines.

 

Chekov's mail robot?

[dr pepper]

How committed are you to the violins? I'm thinking let's chuck them, bring in guitars and do the whole thing in Spanish. It's going to be beautiful! La historia de dos agentes amorosos del Comite para la Seguridad del Estado... 

 

Even better! And when they go outside and kiss in the courtyard-- the snow suddenly melts to reveal white roses. Miraculoso!

Edited March 21, 2015 by dr pepper

[dr pepper]

I remember seeing a reference to this [necklacing] as a method of torture/death used in some parts of the world, and that they were occasionally recorded, but I didn't realize that there was intention for the body to be found.  In this case, I woudl think the characters wouldn't want any possible way this could lead back to them, no matter how slight the chance of a connection.  In any case, getting those stains out of the concrete will not be easy.

 

Historically, no matter how bad the system you're rebelling against is, there will always be those who just want to hunker down and try to get by. Some even denounce the rebels, and some actively collaborate with the oppressors. And there will always be those among the self proclaimed freedom fighters who want to treat the non participants, part of the people they claim to be fighting for, as enemies. Sometimes it reaches the point of violence. In South Africa at that time, a lot of people got necklaced as supposed traitors to the cause, even if their only crime was not making a donation.

[henripootel]

In South Africa at that time, a lot of people got necklaced as supposed traitors to the cause, even if their only crime was not making a donation.

This was my point - if you just wanted them dead, a bullet would do.  Necklacing sends a message.  Which brings us to ...

Again I point out that illegals placed in Washington are incredibly valuable to the Soviets, and loaning them out on this stupid adventure featuring broad-daylight assassinations and lynchings is not something the KGB would ever ever do.

I agree - exposing deep-cover agents for this kinda work is crazy if literally anybody else is available.  So many things could have gone wrong (and still might) - the Center would never agree to this.  And for what it's worth, were this done properly the burned guy would disappear without a trace and the student guy who collaborated with him would be dead dead dead.  

What is up with Arkady not packing Oleg off back home after repeated requests from his powerful father?

My take is that Arkady is weighing his options like the good political animal he is.  On the one hand, he can justify defying the powerful father on professional grounds - Oleg is needed, and it's not like Oleg is on the front lines in Afghanistan here.  And on the other hand, Oleg is smart and connected, so who knows how far he'll rise?  If he achieves real power, he owes Arkady one, maybe two.  These are the kinda connections that make careers.

[kikaha]

 I think if Clark suddenly "disappeared", Martha has wised up enough not to investigate. 

But matters could be taken out of her hands.  Suppose, as someone pointed up, the FBI conducts lie detector tests of everyone in the office.  That would expose Martha at once.  She could then give them a near-perfect sketch of Phillip.  Stan would likely recognize Phillip.  That leads them straight to Elizabeth as well.  

 

(One weakness of the plot is how interconnected so many characters are.  Making Stan a neighbor/friend to P&E, while Clark has secretly wed Martha, is a huge error, that puts P&E at much greater risk for discovery.) 

 

For the Soviets, I only see downside to Martha now, with no upside.  How can they afford to let her live? 

[SlackerInc]

One problem with that is that Martha has little or no intelligence to offer anymore.  i.e. she's no longer an asset.

 

Why does everyone keep saying that?  She has just as much to offer now as she did when we first met her, and Philip was spending lots of time working her, as "Clark".  I didn't get the impression at all that he was only interested in her in order to work up to having her plant a bug: it seemed like he was getting a lot just from asking her questions.  After all, she's the secretary to the head of the counterintelligence office, so she's going to continue to know things.

 

That said, I still don't think it's worth the risk to Philip to stick around.

 

I was surprised Martha did so well with the interrogation.  She has never seemed clever enough to pull off such a guileless performance. 

 

Yeah, count me in the camp of thinking that was a little too impressive.  Like Alison Wright the actor was taking the words on that page of the script and delivering them in her most convincing manner, rather than adding the extra layer of "be a non-professional actor who is really scared".  They have her acting fidgety and scared around the rest of the office, but then so cool and collected under direct fire?  Even to the point of convincingly acting like "ehh...I don't follow what you're getting at?" when questions about pens are brought up.  Seems strange.

 

Apparently there's $1 million floating around as get the hell out of Dodge money. Martha should take that and Tahiti. (Not that I believe Philip and team were actually going to give Venter that $1 million option.)

 

 

Yeah, I was going to reply to another comment that I have a hard time why they made that offer.  It sort of makes more sense if it was insincere--but are you saying they were just dangling this false offer to get him to talk?  Otherwise, why bother?

[stillshimpy]

I'm always saying this, but it's actually pretty easy to understand:  It's really difficult to for an actor to show their character as acting.  To add that layer of artifice and not have it be visible from space.  Lena Headey on Game of Thrones occasionally has to show her character Cersei in the midst of plotting, scheming and attempting to fool, other characters.  She has to do it often enough that Headey seems to have decided that "Cersei is sort of a bad actor" and you can always tell the difference between sincere Cersie and plotting Cersei, because Headey is a good actor.  Cersei is not.  

 

I think Allison Wright decided that Martha is a damned good actor when she needs to be and it actually does make perfect sense, when I stop to think about it:  She's actually been doing this stuff for Clark for years, without giving a hint of it  We already knew Martha is a good actor.  Every stinkin' time we see her in that office?  She is acting.  She's always acting.  She's always not giving away that she's passing secrets to anyone.  

 

So yes, she's terrified and if anything I think she overplayed it with the nonchalance.  No one is that nonchalant when they think they are being interviewed as a potential spy.  No one who is the gatekeeper for the guy whose office was bugged would actually be quite that  wide-eyed and "whatever could you mean? Me? "  about it naturally.  

 

Contrast her with Aderholt, who gave very measured and careful responses to actually insulting questions.  Taffet has to know that's a choice on Aderholt's part.  He's trying to be a jackass to him, to get him to show emotion and Aderholt did choose to show an emotion in response.  It just happened to be near serenity in the face of an attempt to provoke.  But Taffet would know "This is how Aderholt reacts to a blatant attempt to provoke:  He chooses to ignore the implicit insults entirely, even when they are purposefully repeated."  

 

But it's obvious Aderholt makes that choice.  Now I am crediting Taffet with being even marginally good at his job, but I actually thought Martha's entirely innocent act was a bit much for the situation and that Wright employing Martha's inherent "Martha is a great actor....if she wasn't....Clark would never have chosen her in the first place...."  up almost a little too much.  

 

I think it's easy not to notice that Martha would have to always have been a wonderful actor to pull this off in the first place.  Before any pens got planted.  We've already seen it with Aderholt, when he was talking to Martha about the mail robot.  Martha has been stealing files from there for years at this point, but she actually gives nothing away.  

 

Martha rocks hardcore at being able to act.  Clark already knew it and it is implicit story prior to this that she would have to be. 

 

 

 

 One problem with that is that Martha has little or no intelligence to offer anymore.  i.e. she's no longer an asset.

Why does everyone keep saying that?  She has just as much to offer now as she did when we first met her, and Philip was spending lots of time working her, as "Clark".  I didn't get the impression at all that he was only interested in her in order to work up to having her plant a bug: it seemed like he was getting a lot just from asking her questions.  After all, she's the secretary to the head of the counterintelligence office, so she's going to continue to know things.

 

Emphasis mine.  Presumably because she will have now lost the willingness to get that information.  That's why.  Believing that Clark worked for the same team she does was the reason Martha was helping him.  

 

She has to know that he isn't actually on the up-and-up.  Martha's value doesn't disappear as a source of information because of the discovery of the pen,  Martha's value disappears when she no longer is willing to help Phillip.   

 

She knows he's been lying to her for years and whereas she is a gold medalist in the Denial Olympics, she'd have to be a moron not to be thinking "he lied all this time" .  She's clearly having doubts in that end shot.  

 

Her access has not changed materially, but her trust level entirely has and there is risk exposure, because at any moment, she could sing like the proverbial canary.  

Edited March 21, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Guest]

I agree Martha knows he's been lying and is not on her side but now she may choose to cooperate in order to remain alive.  The KGB has no reason to keep her alive unless she somehow convinces them she can supply more information, and will.  Maybe.  I'm not sure really where they're going to go with Martha.  

 

I balked at the idea that Gaad makes decisions about the electronic security in his office himself.  In real life, wouldn't all the offices be electronically swept for bugs regularly and have surveillance cameras?  

[stillshimpy]

I agree Martha knows he's been lying and is not on her side but now she may choose to cooperate in order to remain alive.

 

I don't know, maybe.  But here's the problem: I've never gotten the sense that Martha would willingly hurt anyone and she'd have to be okay with the concept of hurting another person, or her country, to just want to "stay alive".   It seems more likely to me, if her goal is to stay alive and little more, go to her boss and tell Gaad what happened.   

 

It's possible, but Martha wasn't recruited to work with the KGB, she was recruited under the guise that it was actually a way of helping her country in the long run. 

 

I complain about politics a lot, I believe we are a flawed country that could change thngis for the better, but that's just believing in progress as far as I'm concerned. I have a feeling that I'd squawk like a bald Eagle clutching a flag and run to the nearest authority if anyone ever asked me to do anything to hurt the U.S.   Just saying, it's sort of going to depend on whether or not, at her heart of hearts, wanting to survive entirely trumps loyalty to her country.   

 

But she's a good actor and that might be a key element to everything.  Maybe she'll go to Gaad and then proceed to be a double-agent?  I think that's more likely than Martha continuing to help Clark, without having a clear understanding of  what that information is being used to do....and I'm just not sure that Clark could entirely convince her that water is wet, at this point in the game. 

 

 

 

I balked at the idea that Gaad makes decisions about the electronic security in his office himself.  In real life, wouldn't all the offices be electronically swept for bugs regularly and have surveillance cameras?

 

Boy do I ever agree with that.  I know this show has a technical adviser and people who worked in intelligence, but they are choosing to just pretend on some levels, because no one loves a far reaching policy as much as any governmental structure.   It wouldn't be individually determined like that. 

Edited March 21, 2015 by stillshimpy

[shura]

My take is that Arkady is weighing his options like the good political animal he is.  On the one hand, he can justify defying the powerful father on professional grounds - Oleg is needed, and it's not like Oleg is on the front lines in Afghanistan here.  And on the other hand, Oleg is smart and connected, so who knows how far he'll rise?  If he achieves real power, he owes Arkady one, maybe two.  These are the kinda connections that make careers.

 

I don't know. Career-wise, wouldn't it be better for Arkady to do the favor this friend of Andropov's is asking for? The guy has real power right now. Why forgo it and hope that Oleg maybe will amount to something serious? 

[RedHawk]

Yeah, I was going to reply to another comment that I have a hard time why they made that offer.  It sort of makes more sense if it was insincere--but are you saying they were just dangling this false offer to get him to talk?  Otherwise, why bother?

 

 

I just didn't get that offer. Why on earth would the KGB be ok with Venter running around free with $1 million? Did they believe he was so scared that he would simply retire from pro-Apartheid activities and sip rum in the Caribbean? (The offer came before the tire was brought out, mind you.) All the "we know how to find you" threats in the world wouldn't likely be enough to contain him or keep him from contacting his colleagues and at least reporting Ncgobo's role in the abduction. I mean, this guy is the enemy. What's he done to deserve reprieve just for giving some information? Maybe someone can explain it better...

 

No one who is the gatekeeper for the guy whose office was bugged would actually be quite that  wide-eyed and "whatever could you mean? Me? "  about it naturally.

 

When Gaad asked Taffet how the questioning had gone, Taffet said he'd had some "surprises". I'm not sure that he bought Martha's innocence. I think it was kept purposefully vague how he read her responses -- he may have picked up on her too wide-eyed innocence. Or maybe he wrote her off as "just another clueless secretary", a role she played quite well, knowing it would likely work. I for one have never underestimated Martha's intelligence.

 

Remember, one of the reasons Martha went along with Clark's requests, and even offered to bring the top-secret files, was because she was frustrated with the lax security around the mail robot. She is a stick-to-the-rules type of person, and she had been thoroughly trained in the proper procedures for security. The altered tape recording Clark played for her pushed her over the edge, but she already was angry that things weren't being done in the correct and proper way. I think those things are going to continue to play into her feelings and shape how she reacts to these new developments.

Edited March 21, 2015 by RedHawk

[Guest]

Just saying, it's sort of going to depend on whether or not, at her heart of hearts, wanting to survive entirely trumps loyalty to her country.   

Most rational people would choose life and spying over certain death.  There is always the hope that the person or organization you're enslaved by will get caught or otherwise buzz off on their own.    

 

Kind of funny Martha and Nina are in similar situations now.  Spy involuntarily or rot in jail for treason (or be killed outright).  

 

Re. Arkady-- Didn't he tell Oleg his reasoning originally?  He doesn't like being told how to run his office, or believes a man should make his own decisions or something?  It seemed to me he might actually be doing it because it's the right thing to do, not out of self-promotion.  

 

Re. the million offer-- I was confused too but I figure it was a last ditch effort to break him.  I assume that if he'd broken for the million, he would've been killed after.