Sweet Fellowship: Duggars and Friends (aka the Bates Family and Other Featured Families Thread)

[tabloidlover]

How come in most of these funless families women and children do all of the work?  Child care, grooming, feeding, washing - women and children are tasked to do these things.  Child education - women and children do the work.  Cleaning - women and children.  Cooking - women and children.  Starring in TV shows - mostly children and women.  Singing and playing instruments for donations - children.  What do the men do?  Most don't earn enough to support a dozen or more kids.  Most live in poverty expecting donations. Unless they hit it with a TV show where the children have to act happy they live in cramped houses where the women and children do everything.Yet God bless the man who takes care of his family, ,lol.

Such a dichotomy with the whole man of the house thing.  This same man that is supposed to be head of the household in reality does very little for the household.  Earn a living, which in most cases in this world leaves them in poverty.  That's it for his contribution unless you count making all decisions and being the boss of said household.  Yet this same man needs an accountability partner because he cannot be trusted to not be defrauded by knees or shoulders.  He needs someone to monitor his internet usage because he is weak.  And everyone in this thought free society thinks this is normal?  I will never understand it. 

[BitterApple]

GeeGolly, Chad met Erin at a Valentine's Day dinner. Erin ended up needing graphic design work done for her CD cover and asked Chad to help. On Bringing Up Bates, they said they dragged the project out as an excuse to hang out. It was actually really cute the way they told the story.

Regarding Terrified Maxwell, that woman would make a great case study for some University's psych department.

[3girlsforus]

GeeGolly, Chad met Erin at a Valentine's Day dinner. Erin ended up needing graphic design work done for her CD cover and asked Chad to help. On Bringing Up Bates, they said they dragged the project out as an excuse to hang out. It was actually really cute the way they told the story.

Regarding Terrified Maxwell, that woman would make a great case study for some University's psych department.

Was this before they were married. Sorry I don't know much about these other families.

[Wellfleet]

How come in most of these funless families women and children do all of the work?  Child care, grooming, feeding, washing - women and children are tasked to do these things.  Child education - women and children do the work.  Cleaning - women and children.  Cooking - women and children.  Starring in TV shows - mostly children and women.  Singing and playing instruments for donations - children.  What do the men do?  Most don't earn enough to support a dozen or more kids.  Most live in poverty expecting donations. Unless they hit it with a TV show where the children have to act happy they live in cramped houses where the women and children do everything.Yet God bless the man who takes care of his family, ,lol.

 

Why do women and children do all the work? That's easy. Because since time began, men felt entitled to make the rules. And because for the most part, in order to keep peace and to remain with their own children, women had to let them. If that sounds bitter, so be it. But I also think it's true...

[Arwen Evenstar]

Such a dichotomy with the whole man of the house thing.  This same man that is supposed to be head of the household in reality does very little for the household.  Earn a living, which in most cases in this world leaves them in poverty.  That's it for his contribution unless you count making all decisions and being the boss of said household.  Yet this same man needs an accountability partner because he cannot be trusted to not be defrauded by knees or shoulders.  He needs someone to monitor his internet usage because he is weak.  And everyone in this thought free society thinks this is normal?  I will never understand it.

Yes, my dear, this fuzzy logic they have truly boggles the mind. It's so obvious to those of us on this forum..I just pray one of their kids reads it and realizes how senseless it is. Nothing wrong with aspiring to live a life that is godly, but when all the rules they live by sends them into retrograde instead of forward, I don't know why they won't question the obvious.

The interesting point is how the man's living guarantees more often than not a life of poverty. Steve Maxwelli used to work as an engineer...an occupation depending on the demand for his particular discipline and level of experience would easily translate to a six figure income nowadays. I heard he quit because his job required him to work with or under a woman...puleese...in my nearly 30 years of practice as a female engineer, I've never had a male coworker behave like that which told me that he was quite drunk on the Kool Aid before that encounter.

I used to work for a smaller engineering company that had a large contingent of evangelical Christians and I was paid well, listened to, and treated with nothing but professionism, kindness, and respect...so Steve Maxhell's mindset is utter hogwash. In fact, had the energy business not gone down the crapper, I'd likely still be there and would consider returning there. There were many women working there as well as Muslims and Hindus and people of all faiths welcomed with open arms.

It just floors me that any man with a large family would give up a well paying profession simply because he got a bug up his ass about working with women. I could understand him hanging out his own shingle as a consultant so he could choose his clientele...but to abandon a lucrative profession completely? Makes no sense...use the sense and logic God gave you, Maxhell!

[BitterApple]

Was this before they were married. Sorry I don't know much about these other families.

It was, yes. They weren't officially courting, but they were attracted to one another. The whole family joked about how everyone knew what they were up to, but weren't going to put a damper on it. I think Gil and Kelly learned a lot from Zach's failed courtship and loosened the reigns a bit.

[NewDigs]

Bold mine.

Yes, my dear, this fuzzy logic they have truly boggles the mind. It's so obvious to those of us on this forum..I just pray one of their kids reads it and realizes how senseless it is. Nothing wrong with aspiring to live a life that is godly, but when all the rules they live by sends them into retrograde instead of forward, I don't know why they won't question the obvious.

The interesting point is how the man's living guarantees more often than not a life of poverty. Steve Maxwelli used to work as an engineer...an occupation depending on the demand for his particular discipline and level of experience would easily translate to a six figure income nowadays. I heard he quit because his job required him to work with or under a woman...puleese...in my nearly 30 years of practice as a female engineer, I've never had a male coworker behave like that which told me that he was quite drunk on the Kool Aid before that encounter.

I used to work for a smaller engineering company that had a large contingent of evangelical Christians and I was paid well, listened to, and treated with nothing but professionism, kindness, and respect...so Steve Maxhell's mindset is utter hogwash. In fact, had the energy business not gone down the crapper, I'd likely still be there and would consider returning there. There were many women working there as well as Muslims and Hindus and people of all faiths welcomed with open arms.

It just floors me that any man with a large family would give up a well paying profession simply because he got a bug up his ass about working with women. I could understand him hanging out his own shingle as a consultant so he could choose his clientele...but to abandon a lucrative profession completely? Makes no sense...use the sense and logic God gave you, Maxhell!

Sounds fishy to me. My first thought was that they fired his ass (misogyny) and he's not talented enough to go it alone.

[Arwen Evenstar]

Bold mine.

Sounds fishy to me. My first thought was that they fired his ass (misogyny) and he's not talented enough to go it alone.

Yep, that crossed my mind as well. The incident probably further galvanized his misogynistic behavior since he considered himself "persecuted" after that.

[MunichNark]

It was, yes. They weren't officially courting, but they were attracted to one another. The whole family joked about how everyone knew what they were up to, but weren't going to put a damper on it. I think Gil and Kelly learned a lot from Zach's failed courtship and loosened the reigns a bit.

I'd say you're right - they LEARNT something from it - which makes them lightyears ahead of the Duggars who never learn or move on from anything. It boggles the mind how these people manage really.  They are so damn ignorant.

[GeeGolly]

Bold mine.

Sounds fishy to me. My first thought was that they fired his ass (misogyny) and he's not talented enough to go it alone.

I'm not sure he was fired, Chad's dad gave up a medical practice and I believe Gil Bates gave up a job to start his own business. Gothard men are supposed to have independent jobs. The Maxwell dad may have actually up and quit.

[Arwen Evenstar]

I'm not sure he was fired, Chad's dad gave up a medical practice and I believe Gil Bates gave up a job to start his own business. Gothard men are supposed to have independent jobs. The Maxwell dad may have actually up and quit.

No doubt that's a part of it...Gothard men can't remain "in the world"... No doubt the pressure to pay bills and joyfully accept every bambino that comes along as a result of enjoying sex...has to be excruciating

.

Not hard to figure out why they are angry and uptight all the time....and make their wives and children suffer an existence of misery and drudgery

[BitterApple]

Maybe Steve caught a glimpse of an ankle when a female co-worker's pant leg shifted and he decided he couldn't be around so many Godless heathens anymore.

[NewDigs]

I'm not sure he was fired, Chad's dad gave up a medical practice and I believe Gil Bates gave up a job to start his own business. Gothard men are supposed to have independent jobs. The Maxwell dad may have actually up and quit.

Wow.

Why even bother with continuing education? Those degrees had to cost. A lot.

[GeeGolly]

Maybe Steve caught a glimpse of an ankle when a female co-worker's pant leg shifted and he decided he couldn't be around so many Godless heathens anymore.

Is he the one who wrote about getting all squirmy when his glance at a woman's chest lasted more than .5 seconds? And did he blame her choice of clothing?

[BitterApple]

Is he the one who wrote about getting all squirmy when his glance at a woman's chest lasted more than .5 seconds? And did he blame her choice of clothing?

Yes, the infamous Inadvertent Boob Sighting. And yes, he did blame the woman for her 'immodest' dress.

[3girlsforus]

It was, yes. They weren't officially courting, but they were attracted to one another. The whole family joked about how everyone knew what they were up to, but weren't going to put a damper on it. I think Gil and Kelly learned a lot from Zach's failed courtship and loosened the reigns a bit.

 

You know it's pretty sad that this is 'loosening the reigns'. My first thought when I read that was how these stupid rules encourage lying and deception. These young adults have to create fake scenarios just to hang out together because their parents are so sick and controlling they couldn't possibly just say 'hey I'm going to dinner with someone'.  They aren't sneaking around to have sex, although I'm sure that happens with many fundie kids. They are sneaking around just to spend some time together. That's disturbing.

I'm not sure he was fired, Chad's dad gave up a medical practice and I believe Gil Bates gave up a job to start his own business. Gothard men are supposed to have independent jobs. The Maxwell dad may have actually up and quit.

 

Independent of what??

[RazzleberryPie]

Yep, that crossed my mind as well. The incident probably further galvanized his misogynistic behavior since he considered himself "persecuted" after that.

My husband and several of his uncles, brothers, cousins (male and female) are engineers. Basically his whole family is either in some aspect of engineerig or construction.

There's no possible way a person as misogynic and also religiously isolated can work in the industry. Hubs' family is mostly Catholic, employees are everything from catholic to Protestant to Muslim, Hindu, agnostic, etc. Their firm is smaller, so it's easy to get to know a lot about coworkers families. I'd say they're 80/20 with men to women, which is actually fairly progressive with a very male dominated field.

My point is - no way could a person who cannot interact with females or people who are not evangelical Christians can function in this world. There is a high concentration of Muslim and Hindu (many Indians, Pakastanis, Syrians, Lebanese, etc) people in the engineering field. You'll work in the same firm or as subconsultants, partners, etc. There is a growing number of women in the field, too. If he can't take direction from a person who isn't a White Male Evanglical, he's beat off out of the industry.

Also - engineers LOVE to argue. Debate, discuss choices, express differing opinion, etc. Worse than attorneys sometimes. If Maxwell sees any expression of a different view as a threat, he's in the wrong field.

There's also that requirement of a college degree and professional licensing. Where we are and in our field, engineers without a PE license earn about 30-40 percent less than a PE and have little room for advancement. Anyone who shuns higher ed cannot earn an engineering degree and then can't start working on a PE license. For the contractors, they do not consider hiring anyone without the proper certifications and training. Everything from OSHA to trench digging to forklift operating to electrical etc has specialized training. Can't imagine Maxwell consenting to any of that.

We take it as an opportunity to learn about other cultures and work with some very talented engineers and skilled labor. Dad Maxwell sees it as a threat to his manhood.

[Sew Sumi]

You know it's pretty sad that this is 'loosening the reigns'. My first thought when I read that was how these stupid rules encourage lying and deception. These young adults have to create fake scenarios just to hang out together because their parents are so sick and controlling they couldn't possibly just say 'hey I'm going to dinner with someone'. They aren't sneaking around to have sex, although I'm sure that happens with many fundie kids. They are sneaking around just to spend some time together. That's disturbing.

Independent of what??

Employers. They are supposed to be wholly self-sufficient or work directly for the cult, which is what Dr. Paine now does.

[sometimesy]

The Fabulous David and Michaela Bates husband both go to work at jobs for Gothard don't they? 

Employers. They are supposed to be wholly self-sufficient or work directly for the cult, which is what Dr. Paine now does.

Guess that answered my question. 

[BitterApple]

TFDW and Brandon Keilen both work for Gothard. Even though they're employed at Kool-aid Headquarters, I will give them credit for bringing home a paycheck. It's more than Smuggar, Triple D and Bin are doing right now.

[GeeGolly]

TFDW and Brandon Keilen both work for Gothard. Even though they're employed at Kool-aid Headquarters, I will give them credit for bringing home a paycheck. It's more than Smuggar, Triple D and Bin are doing right now.

But Chad and Zach work for others, correct?

[BitterApple]

But Chad and Zach work for others, correct?

They do. Zach is a Sheriff's Deputy (real deputy, not fake like JD) and Chad is some sort of office/finance manager for a local business. Alyssa's husband John is an HVAC tech who owns a business with his brothers.

[Arwen Evenstar]

My husband and several of his uncles, brothers, cousins (male and female) are engineers. Basically his whole family is either in some aspect of engineerig or construction.

There's no possible way a person as misogynic and also religiously isolated can work in the industry. Hubs' family is mostly Catholic, employees are everything from catholic to Protestant to Muslim, Hindu, agnostic, etc. Their firm is smaller, so it's easy to get to know a lot about coworkers families. I'd say they're 80/20 with men to women, which is actually fairly progressive with a very male dominated field.

My point is - no way could a person who cannot interact with females or people who are not evangelical Christians can function in this world. There is a high concentration of Muslim and Hindu (many Indians, Pakastanis, Syrians, Lebanese, etc) people in the engineering field. You'll work in the same firm or as subconsultants, partners, etc. There is a growing number of women in the field, too. If he can't take direction from a person who isn't a White Male Evanglical, he's beat off out of the industry.

Also - engineers LOVE to argue. Debate, discuss choices, express differing opinion, etc. Worse than attorneys sometimes. If Maxwell sees any expression of a different view as a threat, he's in the wrong field.

There's also that requirement of a college degree and professional licensing. Where we are and in our field, engineers without a PE license earn about 30-40 percent less than a PE and have little room for advancement. Anyone who shuns higher ed cannot earn an engineering degree and then can't start working on a PE license. For the contractors, they do not consider hiring anyone without the proper certifications and training. Everything from OSHA to trench digging to forklift operating to electrical etc has specialized training. Can't imagine Maxwell consenting to any of that.

We take it as an opportunity to learn about other cultures and work with some very talented engineers and skilled labor. Dad Maxwell sees it as a threat to his manhood.

Razzleberry Pie,

If I could like this post 1000 x I would.

Since you are married to an engineer, you totally described our ilk to a tee...and you also pointed out just how Steve Maxwell just couldn't cope and why. Excellent post.

Most of the folk and a good bit of the management at the smaller firm I worked for were evangelicals...but they would have found the likes of Maxwell insufferable on all levels...because they accepted everyone there regardless of race, religion, gender or sexual orientation.

The worst thing about Maxwell is his unwillingness to see to it that any of his children receives a proper education. Education and science are articles of faith for most engineers...

[3girlsforus]

So at what point did Maxwell decide that working as an engineer was intolerable? I am assuming he would have had to go through the education to become an engineer which is no small feat. So at that time he must not have believed in only working for the Gothard machine. I just don't get it. I can see someone like Boob agreeing with a mandate to only work for yourself. He has no education and no career to give up. But someone who went through the effort to have a career wouldn't easily walk away from it, especially with so many mouths to feed. I wonder why he would even bother to get the education if he wasn't supposed to have a job and working environment would be so intolerable. It seems that at some point he had less insane ideas. 

[RazzleberryPie]

No idea. A BS in Civil Engineering (which is typically the basic degree, but of course there are specializations in structural, environmental, geotechnical, electrical, mining, mechanical, etc) is almost always a five year degree. Then if you go one to become a licensed PRofessional Engineer, there's a Fundamentals of Engineering exam and then an internship (they're usually working at entry level and being paid nicely, but can't put their official stamp on any plans, which does limit them in most fields). The internship period takes about five years working full time. Then another test to be a PE. If he just earned the degree, that's a lot of time and money. If he went thru the PE process, that's at least 10 years into a career.

Maybe he had a true calling, maybe he was struggling and bowed out because he couldn't keep up. There are engineers without borders type mission work that revolves around building wells (lots of scripture on people at wells, Jesus provides living water, etc.), building schools and churches, etc, so he could've parlayed an engineering education into something similar if he'd been called in that direction.

[Arwen Evenstar]

3girls,

I have been wondering the exact same thing. Why throw away all that education and worse, deprive your own kids of one?

I'm sure he was probably fine until that radical brand of fundamentalism took over his brain.

[GeeGolly]

Not really more info but this is an About the Author quote:

 

"Steve Maxwell, father of eight and grandpa to four, has been a homeschooling dad since 1985. His five home-school graduate sons are now wage-earning adults. He has been writing monthly articles for homeschooling dads since 1990. Steve, who has a degree in electrical engineering, spent twenty years working for “corporate America.” He then started a family business, Communication Concepts, Inc. (CCI), with his adult sons. Currently he is full time with the Titus2.com ministry. Steve’s heart’s desire is to encourage fathers to spend time in the Word, love their wives, disciple their children in the ways of the Lord, use their time wisely, and be men of God."

[GeeGolly]

Isn't there a vasectomy story about Maxwell? Is that when they became Fundies? If he has been a homechooling dad for 30 years, how old are his children and how old is he?

Edited April 10, 2016 by GeeGolly

[MarysWetBar]

Oh don't worry, I'm sure they had Grossie Josie come over to lick the countertops before the cookies were rolled out!

You just had to, didn't you?

[GeeGolly]

That's just mean. ;)

[Sew Sumi]

Isn't there a vasectomy story about Maxwell? Is that when they became Fundies? If he has been a homechooling dad for 30 years, how old are his children and how old is he?

It's all true! Poor Sarah is the youngest of the three original Maxwell kids, and she's 34. Steve and Terrified are in their early 60's.

The oldest kids had something resembling a normal childhood before Steve went off the rails, quitting his job at Boeing and getting his vasectomy reversed. There's nine years between Sarah and John, the oldest of the "reversals."

It's not clear if the older kids were always homeschooled, but at least Terrified has a college degree. The reversal kids didn't stand a chance; the Cult of Maxwell was in full swing by the time they were encouraged not to have individual personalities.

[RazzleberryPie]

Cruel and unusual, Maryswetbar. Cruel and unusual.

I have to add in another engineering tidbit - Hubs company had two kids as summer engineering interns (not to be confused with EIs who have finished their degree) a couple of years ago. They were from some Christian College in Ohio. Both had been homeschooled. Both were prepared and excelling in their studies. One graduated and went the missionary route. He sends us 'support letters' a lot asking for donations whole he builds sustainable water systems in undeveloped countries. Not sure off hand of the exact organization.

The other one hated engineering and went to work for campus crusade for Christ. He bums - I mean sends support letters that pretty much look like he and his new wife are extending college on others dimes - everything is spring break ministry, summer beach ministry, fraternity ski lodge ministry, etc. We help support the first kid. We put the 2nd ones' letters straight in the trash.

Point being not all fundie homeschool kids are unprepared for college or don't achieve any higher ed goals. 2nd point being the Maxwell dad is weird.

[BradandJanet]

Employee at a major company=little fish, big pond. All mighty family patriarch=big fish, little pond. Sometimes it's all about the size of the fish. 

[NewDigs]

Not really more info but this is an About the Author quote:

"Steve Maxwell, father of eight and grandpa to four, has been a homeschooling dad since 1985. His five home-school graduate sons are now wage-earning adults. He has been writing monthly articles for homeschooling dads since 1990. Steve, who has a degree in electrical engineering, spent twenty years working for “corporate America.” He then started a family business, Communication Concepts, Inc. (CCI), with his adult sons. Currently he is full time with the Titus2.com ministry. Steve’s heart’s desire is to encourage fathers to spend time in the Word, love their wives, disciple their children in the ways of the Lord, use their time wisely, and be men of God."

Love the quotation marks around "corporate America". Twenty years!

When did disciple become a verb?

At least that rather startling Boob shot was in monitor-frame with GeeGolly's mention of the the word vasectomy.

edit to fix code and remove a couple few exclamation points.

Edited April 10, 2016 by NewDigs

[GeeGolly]

It's all true! Poor Sarah is the youngest of the three original Maxwell kids, and she's 34. Steve and Terrified are in their early 60's.

The oldest kids had something resembling a normal childhood before Steve went off the rails, quitting his job at Boeing and getting his vasectomy reversed. There's nine years between Sarah and John, the oldest of the "reversals."

It's not clear if the older kids were always homeschooled, but at least Terrified has a college degree. The reversal kids didn't stand a chance; the Cult of Maxwell was in full swing by the time they were encouraged not to have individual personalities.

He says he started homeschooling in 1985. Sarah must have been born in 1982 and would have been 3. So did the older kids go to public school at all, or did he quit his job when the oldest was 5 or so? And Mom Maxwell is college educated yet unable to do the homeschooling? This family might be even more screwed up than the Duggars.

 

And what is God's thoughts on the whole vasectomy thing? Was it the devil's fault? Does that kick Steve out of the box seating in the afterlife?

[Sew Sumi]

I think Nathan is 38 or 39 now, so it looks like the math bears out that he and Christopher, who is about 37, did indeed attend some public school. I never bothered with the math before, assuming that Terrified schooled them from Day One, but they were over the moon that Mary graduated after exactly 30 years of home instruction.

Steve just becomes more tyrannical with time.

[Arwen Evenstar]

You just had to, didn't you?

Ewww that mug of Jim Bob...full on creepasaurus Rex...

For the record, I should have clarified I wasn't making fun of little Josie..she's got no choice in being part of this circus

Michelle's parenting methods that include Josie not getting the help she might need and the slovenly housekeeping and letting a child lick everything in sight just make me cringe.

[Sew Sumi]

Well, well, well...I guess Venessa has to practice in OK now, a state with even less oversight than either AR or TX.

http://www.inquisitr.com/2971135/mother-whose-baby-nearly-died-says-a-duggar-attended-her-homebirth-discusses-why-jill-dillards-midwife-trainer-lost-her-license/

[BitterApple]

The debacle with Venessa reminds me of Jessa wanting to go to the hospital and Michelle talking her out of it. She sensed that things weren't going well but had nobody to advocate for her.

I know in the case of Jill's birthing disaster, her midwife was cleared because Jill never kept her updated as to what was going on with her labor.

Edited April 11, 2016 by BitterApple

[Sew Sumi]

I wonder why there was never a lawsuit (in Venessa's case, not whatever counted as Jill's hot mess labor/c-section). Especially if the mother claims that Jill tried to get the baby transferred. It's clear that the Duggars have distanced themselves from Venessa; kicking her out of the pool house was the last straw. Jill being forced to testify against the woman who threw her a huge baby shower would be drama that I would actually watch!

Edited April 11, 2016 by Sew Sumi

[kokapetl]

I thought I read somewhere that Dr Paine is the medical officer for a prison or juvenile detention centre.

[queenanne]

They do. Zach is a Sheriff's Deputy (real deputy, not fake like JD) and Chad is some sort of office/finance manager for a local business. Alyssa's husband John is an HVAC tech who owns a business with his brothers.

 

Well, that explains a lot, right?  I've asked this question even about the JD "duties", and at minimum that's a lot of moving about amongst drunk profane scantily clad strangers (I used to watch a lot of COPS) of both men and women for Zach.

[Defrauder]

Yes, the infamous Inadvertent Boob Sighting. And yes, he did blame the woman for her 'immodest' dress.

Why can't these men control themselves?  And why do they find it acceptable that they can't control themselves?  Why do they give other men a free pass for not being able to control themselves?  If someone like Gothard can't control himself - they stand behind him, hey - it's not his fault that he couldn't control himself!  He isn't supposed to be moral or anything.  If a young modestly dressed girl in his vicinity turns him on - hey it's not his fault.  

 

They insult men's ability to be moral and control themselves.  I'd be pissed if I was a man who was thought to lack the morality and capability of controlling myself around women.  I mean really.  Chaperone everyone because no one is moral enough to control themselves.  It's barbaric.

[3girlsforus]

Why can't these men control themselves?  And why do they find it acceptable that they can't control themselves?  Why do they give other men a free pass for not being able to control themselves?  If someone like Gothard can't control himself - they stand behind him, hey - it's not his fault that he couldn't control himself!  He isn't supposed to be moral or anything.  If a young modestly dressed girl in his vicinity turns him on - hey it's not his fault.  

 

They insult men's ability to be moral and control themselves.  I'd be pissed if I was a man who was thought to lack the morality and capability of controlling myself around women.  I mean really.  Chaperone everyone because no one is moral enough to control themselves.  It's barbaric.

 

I want to "like" this post a million times. This is really the crux of the issue. I can't figure out why no one calls them on this or no man steps up and says 'uh - I'm a grown up and can control myself. I don't need to be treated like an out of control hormonal 13 year old'. It's equally offensive to women to tell them they must be subservient to men who are supposedly so immature that they need chaperones and should these men stray it's their fault. 

[Defrauder]

I want to "like" this post a million times. This is really the crux of the issue. I can't figure out why no one calls them on this or no man steps up and says 'uh - I'm a grown up and can control myself. I don't need to be treated like an out of control hormonal 13 year old'. It's equally offensive to women to tell them they must be subservient to men who are supposedly so immature that they need chaperones and should these men stray it's their fault. 

I would have been so embarrassed growing up if my father couldn't be trusted out alone.  Why can't your father go out by himself? He can't be trusted around women, especially women who wear pants or show their knees.  What?  Well he might be tempted and who knows what he'll do.  OK so why aren't you allowed out alone?  Because there might be people like my father roaming around out there.  OK well my parents say I am no longer to sleep over your house.  Oh don't worry about that, we all make sure he's constantly monitored around the house too, internet use, phone use, no worries. 

[Aja]

They can control themselves and they know it. It's just too damaging to the foundation of the Cult of the Holy Phallus to make men ultimately responsible for anything.

[flyingdi]

All right, seriously, I need a straight answer. Is her name Michael or Michaela? They seems to use either one pretty much interchangeably. So which is her actual legal name?

[BitterApple]

All right, seriously, I need a straight answer. Is her name Michael or Michaela? They seems to use either one pretty much interchangeably. So which is her actual legal name?

I believe her legal name is Michael but they pronounce it Michaela.

[Sew Sumi]

Her legal name is Michael.

[flyingdi]

Thanks! Leave it to the fundies to find a nickname longer than a person's actual name, I guess.