S01.E09: Unto The Breach

[ribboninthesky1]

If this must be, why can't it be Lucious? He is so ghastly to everyone in his life, it's like he's asking to get clobbered with the nearest blunt object?

 

If this happens, I'll start watching the show again. Word is bond.   

 

Cookie is running the long con. She has spent 17 years hating Lucious.

 

I was hoping for this from the beginning, and if it turns out to be true, it'll renew my interest in Cookie.  I'm not at all feeling the "Cookie and Lucious reconcile and reunite the family" trajectory that, in the episodes I've seen, the show seems to be headed towards. No issues with Cookie developing relationships with her sons, but I'm not remotely interested in the Cookie/Lucious love story.  For me, there isn't one. 

[Guest]

To me, Cookie seems to pretty much forgive Lucious for divorcing her and leaving her to rot in prison.  I figure it's supposed to be that she loves the boys and the business and him so much, she agrees that him cutting her out of his life while she served her term was the best thing for all.  Very much the martyr, which I think is why she went to prison (and not him) in the first place.  

[Dani331]

 

So no one is gonna mention Jamal's D'angelo-esque video with all that damn lip licking.  That was hot!  Where can I find that full video, lol!

 

 

I'm probably in the extreme minority here, but I didn't find that sexy at all. I told my husband that Jussie couldn't pull that off at all. It looked like he was trying WAY to hard to be what he thinks sexy should look like.

[Grace19]

I didn't find the video sexy too.

I hope Luscious doesn't die till the final season, he might be the closest thing to a villain, but he is necessary to the story. I enjoy seeing him square off against everybody.

What I love most about this show is the chemistry between everybody. they really seem like a family despite their differences. its easy to see the love between all of them. so I don't want any of the family members dead, oh and I want Tiana, Rhonda and the little girl to stay.

[Dani331]

Speaking of the little girl, why is she staying at Lucious's house and not with Jamal?

[jsbt]

There is basically zero chance Andre is being killed off. I'm pretty sure the actual death was spoiled a few weeks ago.

Edited March 7, 2015 by jsbt

[Mozelle]

So it seems that Trai Byers actually CAN sing. Here he is (along with other cast members) on Fox 5 DC.

[jhlipton]

I just love that in the magical land of Empire, drivers are just like "Oh, look: two of the biggest musical kingpins in the city are getting ready to have a shoot-out in the street.  Must be Wednesday!"

 

LOL --  so true!

 

 

Responding to The Haves and The Have Nots part of your post regarding my ideas?  I disagree!  First of all, whatever unfavorable issues that may exist with that Tyler Perry show has to do with the way he CHOOSES to write his characters.  It's not the characters themselves.

 

For me, it's both.  Perry creates trite and boring characters and writes them doing trite and boring things.

 

What exactly does Ghetto hoodrat mean? what does Ghetto anything mean?

Exactly. It's just like "diva" -- a "diva" is a black woman (always a black woman -- who sings well. And the people who use it know it has a negative connotation: a "diva" is a woman (always a woman) who feels entitled to the best of everything.

 

=========================================

 

ETA: Rhonda signing papers isn't locking Andre away forever and ever, and probably just means a "3 Day Hold":  The hospital will hold Andre and monitor his meds for 3 days.  After that, the kick him out.

Edited March 8, 2015 by jhlipton

[Syndicate]

What exactly does Ghetto hoodrat mean? what does Ghetto anything mean? I've never heard that term referring to anything but black people. IMO its the PC word for that other word beginning with N. If you watch any of the realty shows, etc these white chicks get drunk, say and do stupid things, things they can't remember the next day or whenever they sober up,,can't say I've ever heard them referred to as ghetto hood rats. 

 

When an individual is called ghetto," angry black woman" or described as "she has a bad attitude". should react as this person perceives them to be: uncouth,ill-bred,uncivilized, with no boundaries and demonstrate how one can achieve Lisa Rinna's lips   without the aid of plastic surgery.  

OK, let's forget about ghetto hoodrat.  I like Cookie, I do, but she is what she is.  She's wholly uncivilized.  She's rude and abrasive even in places where she should'nt be.  Constantly storming into board meetings and spewing foul language, for example?  She's supposed to be a businesswoman but......................  I am not one to treat any of these characters with kid gloves.  

So it seems that Trai Byers actually CAN sing. Here he is (along with other cast members) on Fox 5 DC.

If Andre lives to see season 2, watch him compete with both of his brothers.

[Kendall]

OK, let's forget about ghetto hoodrat.  I like Cookie, I do, but she is what she is.  She's wholly uncivilized.  She's rude and abrasive even in places where she should'nt be.  Constantly storming into board meetings and spewing foul language, for example?  She's supposed to be a businesswoman but......................  I am not one to treat any of these characters with kid gloves.  

If Andre lives to see season 2, watch him compete with both of his brothers.

 

But, here's the thing: you were advocating for Vivica A. Fox to have a prominent role on this show and suggested another character named, "Stylish Davis!" How on earth would that actor and character be any less "ghetto hoodrat" than what you insist Cookie is?

 

The mama really named her child, "Stylish"?

 

There really isn't much that Cookie has done on this show that would be out of place in the music industry. They don't even allow her to use the amount of profanity that would normally occur in a music industry meeting, especially the part concerning rap music. Have we forgotten about the Source Awards? If we're being honest, Cookie being a music exec in rap music isn't the stretch of imagination, Anika's prominent place at the company pushes the limits of reality.

[wayne67]

Exactly. It's just like "diva" -- a "diva" is a black woman (always a black woman -- who sings well. And the people who use it know it has a negative connotation: a "diva" is a woman (always a woman) who feels entitled to the best of everything.

 

Woops. I've apparently been using that word wrong for years. I blame Glee for making me think Diva was someone who was talented but demanding . I've been using it to describe Rachel for the last 3 seasons of that show.

 

Sometimes for Blaine, though mostly when he imagined everyone as puppets...

 

I'm still wondering what kind of race they were running in the boardroom. Becky made a big deal about Creedmore's bar graph being temporarily bigger than Empire's .

 

Wasn't Empire a diverse business empire ? With hotels and clubs and stuff? Or is it just going to focus on the music business ignoring those other things ?

 

I would really like some explanation for why publicly listing the company would make Anika a billionaire ?

[eurekagirl mOo]

There were white sharecroppers you know. Lot's of them.

Cookie has ben in PRISON for 17 years!!! And you all want her to be a calm collected businesswoman? Seriously? It would take quite awhile to get out of prion mode and Cookie hasn't been out that long has she?

Is anybody going to test that poor Childs DNA??? And how did they decorate that room for her so dam fast? All frilly and pink and little girl appropriate the minute they brought her home.

[Syndicate]

But, here's the thing: you were advocating for Vivica A. Fox to have a prominent role on this show and suggested another character named, "Stylish Davis!" How on earth would that actor and character be any less "ghetto hoodrat" than what you insist Cookie is?

 

The mama really named her child, "Stylish"?

 

There really isn't much that Cookie has done on this show that would be out of place in the music industry. They don't even allow her to use the amount of profanity that would normally occur in a music industry meeting, especially the part concerning rap music. Have we forgotten about the Source Awards? If we're being honest, Cookie being a music exec in rap music isn't the stretch of imagination, Anika's prominent place at the company pushes the limits of reality.

LOL.  This is truly what I call missing the point.  You're talking about character names, I'm talking about character attitudes.  I said nothing about Cookie's name.  I'm talking about the way she acts.  But since you want to talk about names, what mother names her child after a Chips Ahoy or an Oreo?

Edited March 8, 2015 by Syndicate

[Guest]

Speaking of the little girl, why is she staying at Lucious's house and not with Jamal?

Probably because Lucious lives in a mansion with a full staff and Jamal lives in a tiny, dive apartment alone.  And no one even knows for sure if Jamal's the father, or apparently has time to check.  

[Joimiaroxeu]

Exactly. It's just like "diva" -- a "diva" is a black woman (always a black woman -- who sings well. And the people who use it know it has a negative connotation: a "diva" is a woman (always a woman) who feels entitled to the best of everything.

Maybe that's what it has come to mean now for some but the word originates in the opera world. There was no self-entitlement about it, it was just a superior--if not the best--female singer among female opera singers. Similarly, the word "prima donna" also originated in the opera world and it meant the lead/starring female singer in a particular opera company. Sadly, both words have now developed negative slang connotations. (And I think "diva" went through a phase where it only applied to Black woman singers but eventually it was expanded to include people like Christina Aguilera, Celine Dion, and Cher, White women with a bit of an attitude who could also belt out a song with the best of them. Perhaps through overuse it has come to be more of an insult toward a certain type of singer who's more blessed with attitude than talent.)

 

Woops. I've apparently been using that word wrong for years. I blame Glee for making me think Diva was someone who was talented but demanding . I've been using it to describe Rachel for the last 3 seasons of that show.

You haven't been using the word incorrectly. It's just that many people only read it in a certain slang sense which has a much narrower and more derogatory connotation.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Joimiaroxeu

[phoenics]

LOL.  This is truly what I call missing the point.  You're talking about character names, I'm talking about character attitudes.  I said nothing about Cookie's name.  I'm talking about the way she acts.  But since you want to talk about names, what mother names her child after a Chips Ahoy or an Oreo?

Magic Johnson's wife's name is Cookie - whether that's a nickname or not, I don't know.

I was wondering the other day whether or not Cookie was her real name or if it's a nickname. You know one of these days someone is gonna call her by her birth certificate name, lol.

You haven't been using the word incorrectly. It's just that many people only read it in a certain slang sense which has a much narrower and more derogatory connotation.

I think what other posters were pointing out is that when it's applied to black women, it's ALWAYS meant to be a derogatory comment. If it's applied to other non-black women, sometimes it can be derogatory and sometimes it can be not derogatory. But unfortunately whenever it's applied to a black woman, it's always derogatory.

Edited March 8, 2015 by phoenics

[Kendall]

LOL.  This is truly what I call missing the point.  You're talking about character names, I'm talking about character attitudes.  I said nothing about Cookie's name.  I'm talking about the way she acts.  But since you want to talk about names, what mother names her child after a Chips Ahoy or an Oreo?

 

No, I didn't miss the point.

 

The names of characters help to project how the writers want them to be seen and the audience eventually sees them as. It's one of the first things that people learn about someone and quite often use to judge them. That's why there is always a joke about a "stripper" name.

 

Perhaps, I'm the only one that has noticed, but it was very convenient for the writers to give one character the name, "Andre" versus his brothers "Jamal" and "Hakeem," all while further implying that he's the one who wants to be white or desperately needs to be accepted by them.

 

They already gave him the first steps in the direction of that acceptance by giving him a "not quite as black" name, so at least he'll be called in for an interview. Jamal and Hakeem can have (and this does happen in real life) their applications quickly discarded because "we already know" says the HR person.

 

Lucious is that dude's real name. Cookie is most likely a nickname AND even I, someone that grew up in one of the suburbiest of the suburbs knew a girl nicknamed "Cookie." Strangely enough, she was just as sweet and kind, but was known to cut a fool, literally and figuratively and went through some really hard times herself, but last I heard, she's doing much better.

 

I'm happy that Vivica has been able to support herself, so I'm not going to really get into the "eye roll, neck break, hands permanently attached to hips, mm-hmph!" acting style that she employs 97% of the time, which doesn't even seem like she's really acting as that is what she is usually doing off-screen in most of her interviews and latest stint on The Apprentice.

[GreekGeek]

If Andre lives to see season 2, watch him compete with both of his brothers.

 

Part of me wants to see the look on Lucious's face if it turns out his oldest son does have musical talent after all, but I also don't want to see Andre pursuing a musical career. Somebody has to mind Empire's finances. I'm wondering how much Lucious's attitude would change if he learns Andre can sing. Will he respect him more as someone who can understand both the financial and the artistic aspects of Empire, or will he trust him even less now that he's seen him have a mental breakdown?

 

I thought about the 3 brothers' names too: who picked them and why. As for "Cookie," I never associated it with any particular race or ethnic group. The Bumsteads in the comic strip "Blondie" are about as white as they come, and their daughter is named Cookie. There was a "Cookie" at my school who was Italian in origin. Her real names were Catherine Carmela.

[kpw801]

Someone wondered about the brothers names upthread.  I think Andre was named before they got involved with the nation of Islam.  I think they were briefly entangled in that hence the arabic sounding names Hakeem and Jamal.  Cookie said something about the nation killing her father-in-law.

[Happytobehere]

Part of me wants to see the look on Lucious's face if it turns out his oldest son does have musical talent after all, but I also don't want to see Andre pursuing a musical career. Somebody has to mind Empire's finances. I'm wondering how much Lucious's attitude would change if he learns Andre can sing. Will he respect him more as someone who can understand both the financial and the artistic aspects of Empire, or will he trust him even less now that he's seen him have a mental breakdown?

 

I thought about the 3 brothers' names too: who picked them and why. As for "Cookie," I never associated it with any particular race or ethnic group. The Bumsteads in the comic strip "Blondie" are about as white as they come, and their daughter is named Cookie. There was a "Cookie" at my school who was Italian in origin. Her real names were Catherine Carmela.

I love your thoughts on the sons' names because I have been struck by them as well.

As for the Cookie question, I came to post that I think Cookie is her nickname. I know someone who has the nickname Peaches because when she started walking and wouldn't respond when she was called, she always came when she was offered cling peaches which was her favorite food. Another person has a nickname because her younger sibling mangled her name as he learned to talk, the adults thought the mispronounced name was cute and began calling her that as well. I don't think Cookie as a name represents ghetto, as there are names that would better reflect that. I just thought one of the show's creators thought it was a cute name for the character.

[photo fox]

I'm running through the thread now and will likely do some editing.

Let's try this. Don't use any terms to label Cookie - or Rhonda, Jamal, Becky, anyone else on the show - that you wouldn't want to have applied to you, your mother, your daughter. Basically follow the Golden Rule. If you want to talk about a character's behavior, talk about the behavior itself. That's the best way to avoid labels.

The only exception is a direct quote from the show, and it needs to be attributed. So "I can't believe Luscious called Cookie 'X' on network TV" is fine; "Cookie is such an 'X'!" is not.

I don't want to stifle the discussion of what are very important topics, but I need to do my best to make sure everyone is comfortable posting here.

[jhlipton]

There were white sharecroppers you know. Lot's of them.

 

When the slave were freed, they were supposed to be given some land ("40 acres and a mule").  Most got little to nothing and wound up raising crops for the white men.  Yes, there were white sharecroppers, but the majority of whites weren't.

 

You haven't been using the word incorrectly. It's just that many people only read it in a certain slang sense which has a much narrower and more derogatory connotation.

It just seems that every time I hear "diva" on American Idol or The Voice, it's applied to a black woman, with "sassy" (another code-marker) often said or implied.  I'll be glad if I'm wrong.

[Dani331]

I read the article with the actor who plays Andre...someone posted it in this thread.  I think it was in Entertainment Weekly. Long story short, he said Andre can't sing, so despite that fact that he really can sing, that doesn't appear like it's going to be used as a storyline on the show. He said it really highlights his position as "the outsider." I saw that clip though, and man, oh, man. He's already fine and he sings too?!

[Joimiaroxeu]

It just seems that every time I hear "diva" on American Idol or The Voice, it's applied to a black woman, with "sassy" (another code-marker) often said or implied.  I'll be glad if I'm wrong.

That's a choice the people on those shows are making; they are misusing the word. They might feel "justified" in that powerhouse singers like Patti and Aretha and Whitney and Mariah at least at one time embraced being called divas, but I think maybe it's one of those words that's been degraded by overuse . As I mentioned in my earlier post, it wasn't always a sly insult and it didn't always apply only to Black women. Maybe if people stopped throwing it around so loosely it would go back to it's generally positive, race-neutral connotation.

[tennisgurl]

The Diva thing reminds of some some controversy that happened early on in Glee (before the 400 other controversial things happened). Mercedes, the African American, plus sized singer, was frequently called the Diva of the group, and got traditional Diva songs. A lot of people called the show out on playing into the stereotype when they used that word, both in the press, and within the show. 

 

They did have that flashback where Andre was singing with his dad as a little kid. Maybe he just decided to go a different way? I know the actor said they wanted to write him as a non singer in a family of singers, but I would like to see what would happen if he ever decided to explore that part of Andre. I have no idea if Luscious would be supportive of that though.

 

He seems to see his kids in a very limited capacity. Jamal is his gay son, so he`s a disgrace. Andre is married to a white woman, and has bipolar disorder, so he`s a disgrace now too, even if its more subtle. 

[Kendall]

But, there are plenty of people who can sing and sing well, but they don't want to be professional singers. Some just don't want to, some know that they can't do all of the other things that is required of being a professional singer and some tried, failed and stopped pursuing it. But, there are churches filled all over the US alone that have great singers who have disappointed somebody by not "trying hard enough" to become famous.

 

They could have Andre singing like ten angels, but if he didn't want to be a singer or simply can't hack being a singer on that level, there would still be a sense that he turned his back on his father's hopes for him. Andre's feelings of being inadequate is largely based on how he feels not being on the creative side measures him against his family. He's just as dismissive of Hakeem and Jamal's strengths as he believes Lucious is dismissive of his.

 

But, I think Lucious rails back against him so hard because what Lucious (and Hakeem and Jamal) does afforded Andre the ability to be Andre the CFO and to have the luxury of not hustling on the road to establish and maintain a career. It's hard for a parent to feel like all they did for their kids is not the least bit appreciated. Andre sometimes comes off as the child of a domestic worker that fancies themselves way too good to do the same type of scrubbing floors that their parents did so those kids wouldn't have to scrub a floor.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Kendall

[mostlylurking]

Beautiful touching scene in the elevator with the three brothers. A lot of raw emotion there. I commented last week how I really enjoy the dynamic between Hakeem and Jamal and how the show didn't go the typical route of having the brothers hate each other while fighting for head of the company, rather for the most part they love and support each other. I am so glad we saw them interacting with Andre, who could really use some love and support right now.

Loved the return of Porsha, I just knew she wouldn't turn on Cookie for Boo Boo Kitty! And Cookie trying to give up her, umm, cookie to the security guy has me laughing out loud. I did feel a tiny bit bad for Anika though.

Still hate Luscious. Judd Nelson has not aged well. That is all.

[JBC344]

I thought this was mentioned in a previous episode but I thought Cookie's real name is Candice.  I thought it was mentioned when she was released or when she testified for the grand jury.

 

Also "Cookie" is probably the least "ethnic" nickname there is.  I know far more white woman with the nickname Cookie than black women.

[Dee]

In the pilot her given name is said to be Loretha Holloway.

[darkestboy]

The reveal of Anika/Beretti working together was somewhat rushed but seeing the Lyons banding together to save their Empire was pretty great stuff.

Cookie getting hammered with one artist and then being honest with Hakeem to get Tiana back was also great. I really loved Hakeem in this episode as well, he's slightly maturing as a character.

Andre's breakdown was beautifully done and props to Trai Byers throughout the episode as well. The scenes in the lift with Jamal and Hakeem and then the boardroom one with Lucious and Rhonda were handled brilliantly.

Jamal putting Lucious in his place over his homophobia was brilliantly done too. Love that him and Ryan are getting it on, loved the sexy as hell All Of The Above and I absolutely loved Conqueror with Delphine, who can definitely come back anytime she wants.

Oh and the family with Delphine and Tiana on You're So Beautiful in the club was an excellent touch too, 9/10

[Cabarb]

Am I the only one who thinks it weird how the little girl has already been accepted as part of the family.  When Cookie and Porsha come in to confront Anika, she is sitting in the hall yelling "Hi Grandma!"  Then it's "Hi Grandpa" to Lucious a bit later.  I'm not sure of the timeline here but I just don't think enough time has passed for every one to be that comfortable with this relationship and situation just yet.  As several of you have pointed out, they haven't even done DNA testing to make sure she is family yet.