The Winds Of Winter: Book 6 Will Arrive...Someday

[Haldebrandt]

That makes it even more annoying. Because Aegon genuinely just appears out of nowhere, and is suddenly a hugely important character who is proactive and decisive and pushes the plot forward. Honestly, I think it's terrible writing, even though Aegon is surely going to be be revealed as a fake. But he's doing what Dany should be doing, in the eyes of this reader. So that makes him annoying and her even more intolerable.

 

Aegon stole Dany's thunder.  That's the first genuine misstep I've seen in this story.  But I guess we'll have to see how it all plays out.

 

From the interview with the publisher linked above:

 

 

Structurally, it would have been nice to have [the battles in ADWD]. But there were two severe and real limitations. First, there are only so many pages you can actually physically bind between covers, and less than a handful of binderies out there who are actually capable of handling the larger books. When we wrapped ADWD—minus the battles—it was 1513 pages in manuscript. To include the battles… Well, we’d physically not have been able to bind it.

Please.  A ton of crap in ADWD could have been cut to make room for them.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Haldebrandt

[Winnief]

 

Aegon stole Dany's thunder.  That's the first genuine misstep I've seen in this story.  But I guess we'll have to see how it all plays out.

 

Yet another reason, I think the show won't include Aegon.  It really would be undermining the drama of Dany's eventual arrival in Westeros if she's the second (ostensibly) Targaryen claimant from Essos on the scene.  

 

 

 

Structurally, it would have been nice to have [the battles in ADWD]. But there were two severe and real limitations. First, there are only so many pages you can actually physically bind between covers, and less than a handful of binderies out there who are actually capable of handling the larger books. When we wrapped ADWD—minus the battles—it was 1513 pages in manuscript. To include the battles… Well, we’d physically not have been able to bind it.

Please.  A ton of crap in ADWD could have been cut to make room for them.

One good thing about the show-they won't be obligated to keep in all the travelogues of Tyrion asking everyone "where whores go," the interminable Victarion chapters, much of the Mereenese knot, and food porn which will save a LOT of time.  

 

Which is why the battles of Ice and Mereen in my opinion will take place before the end of Season Five.  

[dr pepper]

An app to keep the chars straight? No way, a small screen won't do it. You need at least 3 different wall sized presentations:

 

A spreadsheet

 

A timeline graph

 

A conspiracy nut's wall of links

[magdalene]

I think Jon is not dead, he seems like one of those GRRM Teflon coated characters like Dany and Tyrion and Ayra.

 

Killed off in "Winds" will be Jaime and Brienne - I will be truly shocked if one of them or both lives through the next book.

[Meredith Quill]

An app to keep the chars straight? No way, a small screen won't do it. You need at least 3 different wall sized presentations:

 

A spreadsheet

 

A timeline graph

 

A conspiracy nut's wall of links

Lol I'm only quoting what she said.

[dr pepper]

I'm just afraid he's going to trim the book cast to remove characters that were omitted in the show.

[ElizaD]

That makes it even more annoying. Because Aegon genuinely just appears out of nowhere, and is suddenly a hugely important character who is proactive and decisive and pushes the plot forward. Honestly, I think it's terrible writing, even though Aegon is surely going to be be revealed as a fake. But he's doing what Dany should be doing, in the eyes of this reader. So that makes him annoying and her even more intolerable.

I hate the Ironborn, but if I could choose I'd rather have all of them on the show than Aegon for these meta reasons: Dany is wasting her time with Essosi strawmen instead of proving her worth against formidable Westerosi enemies, while a disposable pretender gets to break the Lannister/Tyrell hold on King's Landing. Then Dany will probably roast this newbie "nephew" (no real kinslaying required) in Dance 2.0 and win the throne by more roasting of zombie masses, which is the kind of politics/moral problems-free epic fantasy that ASOIAF isn't supposed to be. I love epic, but not when it's done as dully as Dany's plot and suffers from a comparison with better-handled gritty fantasy in the same series.

[Winnief]

 

I hate the Ironborn, but if I could choose I'd rather have all of them on the show than Aegon for these meta reasons: Dany is wasting her time with Essosi strawmen instead of proving her worth against formidable Westerosi enemies, while a disposable pretender gets to break the Lannister/Tyrell hold on King's Landing. Then Dany will probably roast this newbie "nephew" (no real kinslaying required) in Dance 2.0 and win the throne by more roasting of zombie masses, which is the kind of politics/moral problems-free epic fantasy that ASOIAF isn't supposed to be. I love epic, but not when it's done as dully as Dany's plot and suffers from a comparison with better-handled gritty fantasy in the same series.

 

Seriously.  At least Dany vs. Euron has some drama to it, because Euron is a proven warrior with all kinds of black magic up his sleeve.  Plus his death might spell a new stage for the Iron Islands as the next ruler (probably Asha) is forced to abandon the Old Way.  Nothing about Aegon's death really affects the status quo or course of history.  

 

For the show it makes a million times more sense to write out Aegon and have Dany and her dragons arrive in KL, with the current regime weakened but still in power-so we can watch them all tremble at the sight of dragons.

 

Also, I really hope the Wall comes down soon already, and we get the Others and Wights advancing through the Seven Kingdoms-we've been waiting many, MANY years for that Martin, (as well as learning what happened to Benjen Stark and the truth about Jon,) it's time to deliver god damn it!

[Hanahope]

It sounds like once the novels are ready, the editing process is really fast.  She mentioned something like two weeks, if even that.

 

Well, when you essentially don't "edit" anything, it does go really fast.

[jjjmoss]

I think Jon is not dead, he seems like one of those GRRM Teflon coated characters like Dany and Tyrion and Ayra.

 

Killed off in "Winds" will be Jaime and Brienne - I will be truly shocked if one of them or both lives through the next book.

At least till book 7; then no one's safe (though my queen Sansa better be). I could totally see any combination of the 4 of them dying. Well, maybe not both Dany and Jon, as it feels like losing the central characters of both "Ice" and "Fire" would be weird.

[Winnief]

 

At least till book 7; then no one's safe (though my queen Sansa better be). I could totally see any combination of the 4 of them dying. Well, maybe not both Dany and Jon, as it feels like losing the central characters of both "Ice" and "Fire" would be weird.

 

Don't know about Brienne but I'm convinced Jaime's the Valonqar-which means he will at least survive long enough for that.  I think Dany dies towards the end of the series...but only after giving birth to a healthy living child.  (Your guess is good as mine for paternity.) 

 

I also agree with you about Queen Sansa-it just makes so much sense; she's arguably the most well suited to the job of Queen Consort of any of the potential candidates, she's also the only one who doesn't want the job so there's Martin's sense of irony for you, and frankly of all the choices for the YMBQ to cast down Cersei, there's really only one who's got the personal history and emotional ties to have a dramatic impact isn't there?!?

[Independent George]

It sounds like once the novels are ready, the editing process is really fast. She mentioned something like two weeks, if even that. So Martin could conceivably be done with WoW at the end of 2014 or early 2015 and it could be ready for release after Season Five airs.

A little too fast, I think. FFC/DWD were about 400 pages too long, and really should have been trimmed. A lot.

I feel like GRRM has sold so many books (even more with the show) that he's now being given way too much leeway in what he writes.

[Danny Franks]

Well, when you essentially don't "edit" anything, it does go really fast.

 

Beat me to it. Ha!

 

Yes, the last book was in serious, serious need of editing, and GRRM himself is seriously in need of an editor who will actually push him to produce. But none of that will happen, because he's big money for his publishers. ADWD should have had two or three hundred pages of chaff excised from it, before it ever saw release.

[Winnief]

 

Yes, the last book was in serious, serious need of editing, and GRRM himself is seriously in need of an editor who will actually push him to produce. But none of that will happen, because he's big money for his publishers. ADWD should have had two or three hundred pages of chaff excised from it, before it ever saw release.

 

And doing so would have freed up room for at least one major climax like the Battle of Winterfell, Battle of Mereen, Jon's resurrection, Battle of Oldtown, etc.  Whereas instead we got a book with no real ending or drama at all plus it guarantees that UNLESS TWOW comes out by early 2015 (theoretically possible but I'm doubtful,) the show will start overtaking the books at the end of Season Five.  To put it bluntly, they can't afford to spend a season building up to major battles-only to push the battle itself into next season.  Nor can they delay Dany's travels to Westeros any longer.  

[benteen]

Yeah, I think they could have used at least the Meereen battle at the end of Dance and saved the Battle of Winterfell for Book Six.  Fits in with the whole Winds of Winter theme.

 

Thing is, the Battle of Meereen depends on the involvement of the Ironborn (yet ANOTHER last-minute save) and the rest of Theon's disgusting family hasn't even been introduced yet.

 

Having that battle would have given Tyrion's storyline a good climax.  Really, in ADWD Tyrion's storyline consists of him going from Point A to Point B.  GRRM tends to do that a couple of time.

[Hanahope]

ADWD should have had two or three hundred pages of chaff excised from it, before it ever saw release.

 

I'm convinced that the editing process is merely sending the manuscript through a spell and grammar check a few times.

[mac123x]

I'm convinced that the editing process is merely sending the manuscript through a spell and grammar check a few times.

 

Pretty much.  It's ridculous to admit to only taking two weeks to "edit" a 1k+ page book.  That's barely enough time to read it, let alone provide any useful feedback about plot holes, contradictions, inconsistencies, or even simple corrections like "did you mean to say Hizdar zo Loraq or Hisdar zo Moraq or Hissder mo Zorak was speaking in this paragraph?"  More likely the returned galley will have a big old "luv yer work!  Please don't fire me!" sticker on it.

[benteen]

I recall reading that the normal process for editing a book is five months.  I remember that being the timeframe whenever JK Rowling handed in one of her HP books.

[Avaleigh]

I couldn't believe nobody caught the cousin/nephew mistake regarding Lancel. Anybody know if that was corrected for the paperback? It seemed like a major minor error only because Cersei happens to be on trial for incest so you'd think that wouldn't be the sort of error that would slip through the cracks. Plus it puts a harsher tone to Kevan's anger over the situation that isn't quite the same IMO.

[Advance35]

I think I'm one of the few people that don't mind Aegon, fake or not.   I think he is going to play a big role in helping House Martell kick over the game board against The Lannisters and the Tyrells.   Although according to Martin there are quite a few people left who will sit on the Iron Throne before the saga is over (how he'll manage that in 2 books I shudder to imagine).   And I use to think that the YMBQ had to be Sansa in relation to Cersei but on reflection, this whole story has had people getting their comeuppance from surprising places.   I could see Aegon being one of those instances, especially with Lord Varys and The Martell's in his corner.   Kevan Lannister was murdered for his benefit and Varys has been manipulating an upping the ante of hostilities between the Lannisters and the Tyrells for sometime.    I think a mixture of he and the Martells will ensure that Margaery loses her trial with the Faith.

 

Joffrey was murdered by House Tyrell, and he had never done anything to hurt any of them.   Cersei's most devestating blow didn't come from any of the people she hurt, it came from an organization she was attempting to use as a tool to hurt and kill someone else (The Faith and Margaery Tyrell, respectively).   I could see Cersei trying to use resources she thinks the Throne is entitled too, like food from the Vale to negotiate with someone (The Iron Bank or someone else) and Sansa using her influence in the Vale to shut that door in her face.   I don't think Sansa will be Queen of The North though.   I think she'll marry but not for love or even like, I think she'll marry by choice in an effort to help the North/Starks/Winterfell.

 

Though it's interesting that the showrunners know where her character will end up and they've been playing up the appetite for revenge that the novels have only touched on in passing.   Her taking glee in Cersei watching Joffrey die, her joy in Joffrey's death itself,  her tantrum about giving Walder Frey the "cursed" Harrenhal Castle.

[Winnief]

 

lthough according to Martin there are quite a few people left who will sit on the Iron Throne before the saga is over (how he'll manage that in 2 books I shudder to imagine).

 

I'm increasingly of the opinion he won't.  There's a reason they're now starting to talk about eight books for the series.

 

 

Though it's interesting that the showrunners know where her character will end up and they've been playing up the appetite for revenge that the novels have only touched on in passing.

 

Agree.  Sansa may or may not be the YMBQ but she's clearly going to do something before all this is through to hurt the Lannisters/Help the Starks.  Hence her temporary alliance with LF, but I think she'll turn on him eventually as well.  It kind of fits Martin's sense of irony.  Robb had an army and was a military genius-naturally we saw him as the potential Stark avenger.  Arya has been trained in fighting, recites names every night, and is a complete badass.  We see her as the potential Stark Avenger too especially since Robb's death.  LSH is undead and has the BwB on her side to help her kill Frey's.  Again likely source for vengeance.

 

But what if the figure who does the most damage to those who hurt the Starks, (like LF for instance) is someone who's not a warrior or assassin figure at all?  Someone who's been consistently dismissed as just a silly little girl and helpless damsel in distress might have the most impact because she goes with a political intrigue instead of sheer force?!?  Certainly would fit the larger themes here...

[mac123x]

If the editor is actually going to breeze through the process in two weeks, is it too much to ask that she at least do a Find & Replace on the phrase "much and more" and replace it with "much"?  It's a pretentious affectation, and it and it's smaller cousin "little and less," are pervasive throughout the books. Every time I see it  scoff and get knocked out of the narrative.

 

I first noticed it in Mel's PoV chapter, because she called attention to it. She noted to herself that whenever someone asked what she saw in her fire-visions, she was accustomed to replying "much and more," which points out how meaningless the phrase is.  She's using it to appear cryptic and mysterious, but realizes it's pure waffling.

 

Upon rereading the books, I noticed how many times other people used it.  I guess it's supposed to be a Westerosi idiom, but it's grating as hell.

[Danny Franks]

Pretty much.  It's ridculous to admit to only taking two weeks to "edit" a 1k+ page book.  That's barely enough time to read it, let alone provide any useful feedback about plot holes, contradictions, inconsistencies, or even simple corrections like "did you mean to say Hizdar zo Loraq or Hisdar zo Moraq or Hissder mo Zorak was speaking in this paragraph?"  More likely the returned galley will have a big old "luv yer work!  Please don't fire me!" sticker on it.

 

Yeah, I think the job of "editing" his books is really just seen as an opportunity to read his latest 'masterpiece' before anyone else. At least, that's the way it's seen by the person who's supposed to edit it.

 

I'm increasingly of the opinion he won't.  There's a reason they're now starting to talk about eight books for the series.

 

 

I'm convinced that there is no earthly way of constructing a satisfactory conclusion to this series within two more books. Even within three, I'm not sure it's doable. And again it comes back to his discipline as a writer and the job of a good editor. So much stuff should have been cut from the last two books, and some hard choices should have been made about certain characters and storylines. But without that, we just got two huge, meandering volumes that moved the plots forward fractionally, but did a whole hell of a lot of world building. Honestly, I think that if you've reached books four and five of your seven book series, your world should be built.

[jjjmoss]

I never noticed it.

 

I did notice "words are wind," and the editor said that was the only thing she argued with GRRM about, and he refused to get rid of any instance of it. So I wouldn't get my hopes up for cutting back on whatever phrases GRRM thinks are just so Awesome and Important.

[jimene79]

I think I'm one of the few people that don't mind Aegon, fake or not.   I think he is going to play a big role in helping House Martell kick over the game board against The Lannisters and the Tyrells.   Although according to Martin there are quite a few people left who will sit on the Iron Throne before the saga is over (how he'll manage that in 2 books I shudder to imagine).   And I use to think that the YMBQ had to be Sansa in relation to Cersei but on reflection, this whole story has had people getting their comeuppance from surprising places.   I could see Aegon being one of those instances, especially with Lord Varys and The Martell's in his corner.   Kevan Lannister was murdered for his benefit and Varys has been manipulating an upping the ante of hostilities between the Lannisters and the Tyrells for sometime.    I think a mixture of he and the Martells will ensure that Margaery loses her trial with the Faith.

 

Joffrey was murdered by House Tyrell, and he had never done anything to hurt any of them.   Cersei's most devestating blow didn't come from any of the people she hurt, it came from an organization she was attempting to use as a tool to hurt and kill someone else (The Faith and Margaery Tyrell, respectively).   I could see Cersei trying to use resources she thinks the Throne is entitled too, like food from the Vale to negotiate with someone (The Iron Bank or someone else) and Sansa using her influence in the Vale to shut that door in her face.   I don't think Sansa will be Queen of The North though.   I think she'll marry but not for love or even like, I think she'll marry by choice in an effort to help the North/Starks/Winterfell.

 

Though it's interesting that the showrunners know where her character will end up and they've been playing up the appetite for revenge that the novels have only touched on in passing.   Her taking glee in Cersei watching Joffrey die, her joy in Joffrey's death itself,  her tantrum about giving Walder Frey the "cursed" Harrenhal Castle.

 

Personally, I feel that Aegon being fake is more annoying than if he is real (although I do think he's probably fake).  If he's fake, we wasted a lot of time not only on his whole storyline, but probably Dorne too.  I guess like someone above said we'll just have to wait and see how it all plays out.

[Winnief]

 

So much stuff should have been cut from the last two books, and some hard choices should have been made about certain characters and storylines. But without that, we just got two huge, meandering volumes that moved the plots forward fractionally, but did a whole hell of a lot of world building. Honestly, I think that if you've reached books four and five of your seven book series, your world should be built.

 

That about sums it up.  Yet another reason, I don't think the show will include Oldtown, Skagos or White Harbor.  Nothing against those locales, but they do want to focus on wrapping up the main storylines so anything extraneous needs to be cut.  (Dorne and Braavos are staying because they're more central to the plot and the latter to Arya's arc.)  And again NO AEGON.  Maybe one Greyjoy will make it, but Vic's journey to Mereen and the whole Damphair thing are OUT and Good Riddance.

 

 

I did notice "words are wind," and the editor said that was the only thing she argued with GRRM about, and he refused to get rid of any instance of it. So I wouldn't get my hopes up for cutting back on whatever phrases GRRM thinks are just so Awesome and Important.

 

It was such a minor detail, but it was so worrying because it seemed encapsulate the whole problem-that Martin is just convinced that not only is all of this stuff Absolutely Brilliant but Necessary and it really REALLY isn't.  It was like hearing him say that in a hundred years people will remember the books but not the show-well that may be true but only if he FINISHES the books.  Otherwise, the show will be the one that's remembered since it will be what gives people closure.  

 

FYI sometimes screen versions do eclipse their literary foundations; more people have seen The Wizard of Oz with Judy Garland than ever read the book which is why they all think the slippers were always ruby colored, (in the original book they were silver.)  More people are familiar with Mary Poppins the musical than the books by P.L. Travers, Frankenstein is more well known for its many screen incarnations than for people who actually ready Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley, etc. etc.  

[Avaleigh]

I've definitely reevaluated my expectations regarding both whether the series will ever be finished (I lean towards unlikely but not impossible--certainly not before the show is over) and whether or not I think I'm going to end up liking how everything concludes.

Re the first I definitely think we'll get TWoW but I'm skeptical as hell about ADoS especially if it ends up being broken into two parts.

As far as whether or not I'll enjoy the books, I'm slightly more confident here. AFFC and ADWD were both disappointing and problematic in different ways, but I can't pretend that there weren't a lot of parts I enjoyed reading and since he's in the home stretch he's going to have to make shit happen plotwise. He doesn't really have a choice.

Between the two battles, the Frey wedding, the Sansa/HtH plot, Jon's fate, Aegon's Landing, Theon's redemption, the two trials, Sam at the Citadel, Victarion and the dragon horn, and Jaime's trip with Brienne, I have a lot to look forward to considering not all that much happened in the past two books. Oh, plus there's Bran and the weirwood flashback potential.

I feel like a lot of stuff would have to go wrong for me to not enjoy TWoW namely I'd feel a bit cheated if LS killed Jaime since I still feel like he has to return to KL and/or Casterly Rock one final time. I'll be pissed if both queens walk from their trials. What's the point in setting that up only to not execute either one? Margaery is the logical choice for execution IMO as it will do the most to get the ball rolling in KL in terms of plot.

Apart from the above mentioned expectations there are things I won't be at all surprised if we don't get. Dany making it to Westeros for one. I also won't be surprised if there isn't any progress on the R+L=J front.

Eta:

How could I forget Sansa and Littlefinger?! That might even be what I'm looking forward to seeing most.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Avaleigh

[WearyTraveler]

That about sums it up.  Yet another reason, I don't think the show will include Oldtown, Skagos or White Harbor.

 

I can see the show doing a shortened version of Skagos/WH when it becomes important to bring Rickon back, but a very compressed version of that, with Davos just going in to bring Rickon out, all in one episode.

 

I'm not too sure about Oldtown, as we don't know yet what the purpose of Sam going there is.  If important discoveries and developments are made in Oldtown in WoW, then the show might actually go there.

 

As for Aegon, I think the show will use him, maybe as soon as next season, because I think he's important to show Varys' game plan and Varys has been with us since day one.

 

Edited June 24, 2014 by WearyTraveler

[ElizaD]

I never read The Godfather, but that often gets mentioned as a book that is totally eclipsed by its adaptation.

 

ADWD was like Two-Face GRRM: there's the gripping, tense Northern POVs... and then there's the POVs stuck in the hellhole of Essosi boredom. When his editor couldn't even get rid of a few "words are wind" no wonder I had to endure Quentyn's travels before he showed up in Meereen to get roasted.

 

I first noticed it in Mel's PoV chapter, because she called attention to it. She noted to herself that whenever someone asked what she saw in her fire-visions, she was accustomed to replying "much and more," which points out how meaningless the phrase is.  She's using it to appear cryptic and mysterious, but realizes it's pure waffling.

 

Upon rereading the books, I noticed how many times other people used it.  I guess it's supposed to be a Westerosi idiom, but it's grating as hell.

I dislike that faux-medieval stuff so much, especially since it wasn't there when GRRM started writing ASOIAF. Someone did a chart of his infamous phrases and words that showed him using "thirteen" up to AFFC when "three-and-ten" made its first appearance and other "X-and-Y" versions of numbers also started becoming noticeably more frequent. The AFFC/ADWD sections were full of "much and more" while the AGOT to ASOS sections were blessedly empty by comparison. I only wish the chart had included "leal" so I could've shaken my fist at that too.

[BookEater]

I actually quite liked Quentyn, he just had far too many chapters considering he was dispatched almost as soon as he got to Mereen. If anything I'm looking forward to the Dornish going ape when they find out Dany's dragons roasted him.

 

As for GRRM, there's plenty of material that's been set up that I'm desperate to read, but I'm not confident the series is going to be completed in the next decade or so. Not with how he meanders and loses himself in world building. Honestly, his publishers need to get tough with his editor, since she's not going to reign him in on her own. Or if they could, get him a new editor, though he wouldn't like that.

[mac123x]

I actually quite liked Quentyn, he just had far too many chapters considering he was dispatched almost as soon as he got to Mereen.

 

This is where his editor failed.  "George?  You've got 4-5 chapters told from the PoV of this Redshirt.  Can't we just have Doran mention Quentin's difficult journey, then the next we see him is whenhe arrives in Meereen?"

 

Apart from the above mentioned expectations there are things I won't be at all surprised if we don't get. Dany making it to Westeros for one.

 

I'm pretty convinced that she won't leave Meereen until the end of the book at the earliest, since GRRM has another Red Shirt working his way towards her in the form of Archmaester Marwyn.  It's vitally important that we have multiple chapters showing his journey:  avoiding the Ironborn south of Oldtown (very different than Sam's story because they're going the opposite direction), getting stranded in Volantis because there are no ships going east (completely different than Quentin getting stranded or Tyrion also getting stranded) and having to walk the Demon road, seeing the flames of Valyria off in the distance (vastly different experience than Tyrion's description because Marwyn will be viewing them from the north instead of the south) eating lunch in Mantarys (complete with a full description of the city's history and current politics), and arriving in Meereen only to find that Dany left Slaver's Bay 3 days earlier.

 

We need these Shaddy Dog Stories -- these books aren't going to pad themselves out!

[Winnief]

 

This is where his editor failed.  "George?  You've got 4-5 chapters told from the PoV of this Redshirt.  Can't we just have Doran mention Quentin's difficult journey, then the next we see him is whenhe arrives in Meereen?"

Precisely.  That alone could have freed up enough room to finish the Battle of Mereen or Battle of Winterfell.  Cut out a useless Victarion POV and some "Where do whores go?" and you could have easily fit in both.  

 

 

 

I'm pretty convinced that she won't leave Meereen until the end of the book at the earliest, since GRRM has another Red Shirt working his way towards her in the form of Archmaester Marwyn.  It's vitally important that we have multiple chapters showing his journey:  avoiding the Ironborn south of Oldtown (very different than Sam's story because they're going the opposite direction), getting stranded in Volantis because there are no ships going east (completely different than Quentin getting stranded or Tyrion also getting stranded) and having to walk the Demon road, seeing the flames of Valyria off in the distance (vastly different experience than Tyrion's description because Marwyn will be viewing them from the north instead of the south) eating lunch in Mantarys (complete with a full description of the city's history and current politics), and arriving in Meereen only to find that Dany left Slaver's Bay 3 days earlier.

We need these Shaddy Dog Stories -- these books aren't going to pad themselves out!

 

Dear Seven, I wish that didn't sound as likely as it did.  At least, I have the comfort of being pretty damn sure that neither Marwyn nor the whole stupid Maester conspiracy will make it to the show.  That one in particular is a subplot Martin NEVER should have bothered with.  That and the laughable Dorkstar.  Again I feel confident, D&D won't waste time on a character no one in Readerland ever liked.  Another reason to send Bronn to Dorne instead...

 

 

As for Aegon, I think the show will use him, maybe as soon as next season, because I think he's important to show Varys' game plan and Varys has been with us since day one.

 

I'm not sure about that.  I think the show might decide to just make Varys's ultimate game plan be about Dany and save themselves the trouble of trying to make a petulant teenager with silver hair who DOESN"T have dragons or the Unsullied seem like a credible military threat in Westeros.  Then again they did mention the Golden Company so who knows?

 

 

I'll be pissed if both queens walk from their trials. What's the point in setting that up only to not execute either one? Margaery is the logical choice for execution IMO as it will do the most to get the ball rolling in KL in terms of plot.

 

Agree.  Poor Margaery but I suspect Varys, (or possibly LF) is going to see to it that the Faith condemns her and lets Cersei walk as its the surest way to make all Seven Hells break out in KL and obliterate whatever's left of the Tyrell/Lannister alliance.  

Edited June 24, 2014 by Winnief

[sev]

I did notice "words are wind," and the editor said that was the only thing she argued with GRRM about, and he refused to get rid of any instance of it. So I wouldn't get my hopes up for cutting back on whatever phrases GRRM thinks are just so Awesome and Important.

Given the title of the next book, it could  be that the situations where that phrase is used might tell something about which characters will get a chill... *wonders*

[benteen]

Yeah, Quentyn One-Shot Redshirt long and ultimately pointless journey should have been cut out of the book.

[Pete Martell]

Do you think Quentyn might have been some type of parody (building up a character only for him to quickly die - meta commentary on his writing style or what have you)?

 

I guess they needed a reason to have Dorne turn against Dany, although he could have still been a minor character with that purpose.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Pete Martell

[Winnief]

 

Do you think Quentyn might have been some type of parody (building up a character only for him to quickly die - meta commentary on his writing style or what have you)?

Awful lot of wasted pages for a parody to my mind.  Not saying Martin may not have meant it as a joke, but it wasn't a successful one.  

 

The problem with Aegon as a character is that if he's for real, he just came out of nowhere and was a deux ex machina, and if he's a fake, (which seems far more likely given the "mummer's dragon" prophecy and everything else,) then it's just another distraction.  I mean it's not like Dany's going to have any real trouble dispatching a counterfeit dragon when she has *actual* dragons, and having an imposter steal Dany's thunder (and possibly Jon's as well,) is just goddamn annoying.    And the Lannister dynasty was having plenty of problems as it was-they didn't *need* the GC invasion on top of everything else to sell the notion that the current regime was crumbling.  

 

Have to say am more than a little curious as to what's planned for Sansa in this book, because apparently D&D decided to at least get started on that from the beginning of Season Five-more credence to my theory that Sansa's bringing Vale forces to the North.

[mac123x]

Yeah, Quentyn One-Shot Redshirt long and ultimately pointless journey should have been cut out of the book.

 

As far as I can tell, he accomplished four things:

 

1.  Brought news of a potential ally to Dany.  IIRC, both Ser Barristan and Jorah Mormont already told her that Dorne was their most likely friend, so he just confirmed it.

 

2.  Released the dragons.  Based on the state of their prison, they were pretty close to releasing themselves.  Just have them break out at their next feeding time.

 

3.  Made Dany look like a shallow schoolgirl.  Both her POV and Barristan's stated that Quentin might have had a better chance if he was handsome.  But we already know she's superficial because of her feelings towards Faabio Naharis.

 

4.  Fulfilled parts of two cryptic foretellings:  Quaithe's warning about the "sun's son", and the "sun rises in the west and sets in the east" part of Mirri Maaz Dhur's curse.  This is really the only thing that required him specifically.

 

I know the general rule of fiction is "Show, don't Tell", but it's not a universal law that must be obeyed at all times.  Even if Quentin's presence in Meereen was vital for those prophecies, we didn't need to see his journey.  That could have been handled in a few pages of dialog between Selmy and Archibald Yronwood.  Exposition isn't always a bad thing.

 

The problem with Aegon as a character is that if he's for real, he just came out of nowhere and was a deux ex machina, and if he's a fake, (which seems far more likely given the "mummer's dragon" prophecy and everything else,) then it's just another distraction.  I mean it's not like Dany's going to have any real trouble dispatching a counterfeit dragon when she has *actual* dragons, and having an imposter steal Dany's thunder (and possibly Jon's as well,) is just goddamn annoying.    And the Lannister dynasty was having plenty of problems as it was-they didn't *need* the GC invasion on top of everything else to sell the notion that the current regime was crumbling.

 

I acutally like Aegon (please don't throw books at me, particularly not any of these books as they each weigh 10lbs).  He shows what Dany (even Viserys for that matter) could have been if they'd been raised properly instead of left to wander the Free Cities aimlessly.  Also, I really hope Tyrion is right, that Aegon's presence in Westeros will finally get Dany moving on from her failed attempts at nation building in Slaver's Bay. 

[Premislaus]

 

 

 He shows what Dany (even Viserys for that matter) could have been if they'd been raised properly instead of left to wander the Free Cities aimlessly.

Entitled, petulant little child?

[Maximum Taco]

Entitled, petulant little child?

 

So the child who grows up learning to be a deckhand is MORE entitled then the two who grow up in a nice house in Braavos, and later found refuge for free in a Pentoshi manse?

 

Everyone brings up that cyvasse scene like it's the biggest proof of Aegon's character. I would probably get pissed too if someone needled me, pretended to give me advice and then just tricked me into losing.

 

Nobody brings up the fact that before that he saved Tyrion, even though he could have just let him perish of greyscale. Or that he rewards his friends, like Rolly Duckfield. Or that he's brave enough to lead an attack himself.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[Premislaus]

So the child who grows up learning to be a deckhand is MORE entitled then the two who grow up in a nice house in Braavos, and later found refuge for free in a Pentoshi manse?

 

Everyone brings up that cyvasse scene like it's the biggest proof of Aegon's character. I would probably get pissed too if someone needled me, pretended to give me advice and then just tricked me into losing.

 

Nobody brings up the fact that before that he saved Tyrion, even though he could have just let him perish of greyscale. Or that he rewards his friends, like Rolly Duckfield. Or that he's brave enough to lead an attack himself.

The problem with Aegon is that people are drinking Vary's Kool Aid instead of looking at him with their own eyes. Yes, his education was supposed to make him humble and understanding of the plight of the common man etc., but it clearly didn't work. He freaks out over a game, speaks derisively over baby that was killed so he could live and expects Daenerys to fall over for him. He also accepts Tyrion's advice uncritically while Tyrion's wasn't even particularly serious about him. Oh, and he needed to be saved by Tyrion when attacked (all that fencing lessons sure paid off).

 

What's funny is that all the things you bring in favor of him can seen from a totally opposite perspective. Rewarding Rolly Duckfield? Lack of political sense, that Kingsguard place could win him support of some lord if he didn't waste it on a nobody. Brave enough to lead an attack himself? More like foolish, overconfident and reckless.

[Maximum Taco]

What's funny is that all the things you bring in favor of him can seen from a totally opposite perspective. Rewarding Rolly Duckfield? Lack of political sense, that Kingsguard place could win him support of some lord if he didn't waste it on a nobody. Brave enough to lead an attack himself? More like foolish, overconfident and reckless.

 

Anything you can see from two perspectives.

 

But I would still maintain that a leader at the head of his army would be easier to follow then one hiding in his castle. Especially as a prince everyone thinks is dead, he needs to be seen, and he needs to be seen as strong and powerful.

 

Also while Aegon may have limited himself politically with one appointment he still has 6 remaining. And he knows that Rolly Duckfield will fight and die for him. I'd rather have him in my kingsguard than Meryn Trant or Boros Blount. You can also point out the Dany's Queensguard is filled with Dothraki and Strong Belwas, that won't win her any points with the Westerosi.

[benteen]

Are there any Dothraki still left with Dany anymore on the show?  I don't think I saw any in the background this past season.

[Winnief]

 

Quaithe's warning about the "sun's son", and the "sun rises in the west and sets in the east" part of Mirri Maaz Dhur's curse.  This is really the only thing that required him specifically.

 

This is actually one advantage the show has-since they haven't made all these prophecies on screen they're not bound to keep to every last little detail of each one even if it's a waste of time as well as a spoiler.  So Aegon's definitely a fake being the "mummer's dragon," and Dany's going to crush him then crush Euron too.  Blah Blah.  Frankly I'm more excited for Red Wedding 2.0.

[Hecate7]

So the child who grows up learning to be a deckhand is MORE entitled then the two who grow up in a nice house in Braavos, and later found refuge for free in a Pentoshi manse?

 

Everyone brings up that cyvasse scene like it's the biggest proof of Aegon's character. I would probably get pissed too if someone needled me, pretended to give me advice and then just tricked me into losing.

 

Nobody brings up the fact that before that he saved Tyrion, even though he could have just let him perish of greyscale. Or that he rewards his friends, like Rolly Duckfield. Or that he's brave enough to lead an attack himself.

I thought it was Jon Connington who saved Tyrion, and got greyscale from doing so. IIRC, Aegon just kind of hung out during that scene.

 

No one would enjoy being needled and then tricked into losing, but it was actually a good test, and one that decided Tyrion to trick Aegon still further, into losing in real life instead of just on the cyvasse board.

 

Through this test, Tyrion discovered that Aegon:

 

1) Is not a good cyvasse player, yet thinks he is. Ergo he is not all that smart. He's a poor enough strategist to have been easily tricked into losing. He took his opponent's advice in the game, and then was surprised it was bad advice. He then turned around and took even worse advice from Tyrion, who misled him deliberately because the world does not need to follow yet another fool.

 

2) Was surprised to lose--ie, he's not used to losing, which means that people have been spoiling him and humoring him, rather than teaching him things. Can you imagine Robb Stark, Jon Snow, Bran, Tommen, Sansa, or even Arya, throwing the board because they lost? Arya would have gotten nowhere with Syrio if she'd thrown a fit every time she didn't win. Jon Snow would have said something snide, then reset the board. Robb would have grinned and demanded a rematch. That's the attitude Aegon needed to have. He doesn't have it.

 

3) Has no maturity or self control. He's the same age as Jon Snow, yet he throws the board? I could see Viserys, Joffrey, or Robert Arryn throwing the board over losing, but by Aegon's age kids in Westeros are very mature and courteous.

 

4) Yes, the child supposedly trained to be a deck hand IS more entitled than the two who grew up in Pentos. Reason being, like Viserys, he was told he was the rightful ruler and that everyone should kowtow, and that one day they would. Danaerys and Viserys had to be nice to people or they would lose the support they were getting. They were still twerps, but not as bad as Aegon.

[mac123x]

That's an interestng interpretation, but I don't think Aegon flipped the table over because he lots, but because Tyrion's "trust no one" shenanigans was the last straw; he was already in a bad mood because Connington wouldn't let him  go into town.  Sure, not the best behavior for a future ruler, but he might have learned something in the process.

 

He then turned around and took even worse advice from Tyrion, who misled him deliberately because the world does not need to follow yet another fool.

 

I never thought of it that way.  I thought Tyrion's advice was sincere, though I could see that maybe he was tricking Aegon into doing something stupid, based on Tyrion's laughing about it when he and Jorah found out that the Golden Company was actually going west.  Interesting.

 

Even if Tyrion meant it as bad advice, I think in the end it will turn out to be a good thing, if it finally motivates Dany to get her butt out of Slaver's Bay.

[SeanC]

A few GRRM comments about TWOW (apart from commenting about opening with the two battles, which we already knew about):

 

In addition, Martin says, “We have more deaths, and we have more betrayals. We have more marriages.” Let the speculation begin.

As he’s noted before, Martin says the Dothraki are coming back into the story (“in a big way”), and he says “a lot of stuff is happening at The Wall.”

“Well, Tyrion and Dany will intersect, in a way, but for much of the book they’re still apart,” he says. “They both have quite large roles to play here. Tyrion has decided that he actually would like to live, for one thing, which he wasn’t entirely sure of during the last book, and he’s now working toward that end—if he can survive the battle that’s breaking out all around him. And Dany has embraced her heritage as a Targaryen and embraced the Targaryen words. So they’re both coming home.”

It sounds like Dany will be adventuring with the Dothraki for a while, which is what I was expecting (she's not going to appear at the end of the Battle of Meereen and then immediately pull up stakes and sail for Westeros, which is what some people are convinced is going to happen).

 

He describes a lot happening at the Wall, which suggests we're either going to get Ghost!Jon POV chapters, or else Mel will be the POV there for the next little while.

Edited June 26, 2014 by SeanC

[Winnief]

Was going put up that link but you beat me to it!

 

To me this is the money quote...

 

“We have more deaths, and we have more betrayals. We have more marriages.”

 

The first two are inevitable and really could be anything, (but please Seven not Shireen!  And don't let Brienne betray Jaime!)  But who's getting married?

 

Sansa?  We know LF plans on marrying her to HtH but I don't think it's gonna happen.  Sansa is done with letting other people pick husbands for her and that's also why I don't see Sansa/Aegon happening either. Which isn't to say it's not possible Sansa might, (if they get the marriage to Tyrion declared invalid,) choose someone for herself based on who she thinks can do her and the Stark cause the most good.

 

Dany/Aegon?  Nah...she's coming to Westeros to fight him not wed him.

 

Jon/Val?  If that were going to happen, we'd have met Val on the show by now-we haven't.

 

Rickon-Someone -Maybe.  The marriage ceremony could take place, (maybe to Shireen or one of Manderly's granddaughters or some other Northern Bannerman's daughter,) even if it couldn't be consummated for years and years to come.

 

Stannis/anyone?  Maybe if Selyse dies but its unlikely.

 

Asha/anyone?  Quite possibly if she's trying to get an ally against Euron but the Anvilbreaker marriage would be an obstacle.  (Unless of course he suddenly died.) 

 

My bet is Aegon will wed Arianne, despite Varys's advice.  (She wants to be Queen and she's very...persuasive.)  I also think it's entirely possible that Myrcella might be wed-maybe to Trystane as intended or someone else entirely.  

 

I have an even wilder theory sometimes, that Cersei might marry Euron Greyjoy in a desperate last ditch attempt to hold onto power if/when the Tyrell coalition collapses.  

Edited June 26, 2014 by Winnief

[benteen]

Dany and Tyrion will go another 1000 pages without meeting each other...lovely.

 

Still, what GRRM talked about sounds promising. 

[WearyTraveler]

This quote from the article above:

 

As for the question you’re all shouting at your screen: When does the book come out? We checked with Martin’s publisher, and the date is still as big a mystery as the identity of Jon Snow’s mother.

 

made LOL.  Jon's parentage is probably the worst kept mystery in the series

[blixie]

 

Cersei might marry Euron Greyjoy in a desperate last ditch attempt to hold onto power if/when the Tyrell coalition collapses

Ooh I love this idea never have two people deserved each other so! I think Myrcella and Trystane are one of the few true matches in the books right? She's given politically to Dorne, but she loves it there and is close and cute as kittens with Trystane. 

 

I have to say I really really hope Stannis eats it during the battle of Winterfell, freeing up my Davos to return to the Wall with Rickon to reunite with reanimated/vived Jon. I assume White Harbor and hopefully Sansa/Vale will come to help Stannis, but he'll die in the process which maybe is how Sansa ascending as TWoW ends. 

 

Re: Aegon, I actually like him, I don't think he's a real Targaryen, but I don't mind the role he's playing, but for me Vary's manipulation here would have to rest on his not wanting a true *blood* Targ on the throne, he wants what he believes is all the good parts of the Targs reputations as rulers, and none of the bad,and I want him to learn painfully that just ain't how it works.