The Winds Of Winter: Book 6 Will Arrive...Someday

[Eyes High]

3 hours ago, benteen said:

I've been critical of D&D a lot but I give them a lot of credit for absolutely slashing through Tyrion's travelogue and getting him to Dany in about what, 6 or 7 episodes?  

And yet show-only fans still complained about how draggy Tyrion's arc was in Season 5 before he met up with Dany. That an arc that seemed so brisk or even rushed compared to the book version to book fans while seeming so slow and draggy to show-only fans says it all, really.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

And yet show-only fans still complained about how draggy Tyrion's arc was in Season 5 before he met up with Dany. That an arc that seemed so brisk or even rushed compared to the book version to book fans while seeming so slow and draggy to show-only fans says it all, really.

Well, for a point of comparison, the way D&D cut down Tyrion's plot in ADWD/Season 5 basically removed most of the meaningful incident from the early parts.  Much of the travel portion is dedicated to the mystery of the Griffs, for instance, and whatever you think of that plotline, introducing a major new player in the game of thrones is a big deal; whereas in the show equivalent, it's just Tyrion and Varys traveling and Tyrion grousing while drunk.

[Haleth]

I know I'm in the minority but I loved the Tyrion travelogue in Dance.  I love Jon Con and the boat crew and Penny and where their stories may go in the next book.  Whatever is in store for them all beats whatever D&D come up with IMO.  I don't mind spending time in Arianne's head as long as she's given up the Queen-maker plot. I know savoring these things runs counter to Martin ever finishing (which I've given up on) so any crumb thrown our way is fun for me, but I do understand why it is annoying for so many fans. 

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Well, for a point of comparison, the way D&D cut down Tyrion's plot in ADWD/Season 5 basically removed most of the meaningful incident from the early parts.  Much of the travel portion is dedicated to the mystery of the Griffs, for instance, and whatever you think of that plotline, introducing a major new player in the game of thrones is a big deal; whereas in the show equivalent, it's just Tyrion and Varys traveling and Tyrion grousing while drunk.

So if the Griff storyline had been included--which was part of the larger, seemingly interminable Tyrion travelogue in the books--then the show fans wouldn't have found the Tyrion plot so draggy in the show? I very, very much doubt it; my impression was that book fans certainly didn't find the Griff storyline as riveting as you suggest. In fact, my impression was that book fans--apart from the hardcore purists who cannot seem to find fault with GRRM no matter what--were annoyed at the amount of time and attention lavished on a likely fake Targaryen who's not going to matter in the end result in any event. I also doubt your suggestion that the mystery of the Griffs is "meaningful incident," given that the writers' decision to omit Aegon from the show strongly suggests that Book Aegon is just as expendable and pointless as the hardcore book readers have always suspected him to be.

If GRRM is salty about the Dorne storyline in the show, I suspect it's primarily because D&D have tipped the readers off to Dorne's (and Aegon's) ultimate irrelevance. 

Edited May 11, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

15 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

So if the Griff storyline had been included--which was part of the larger, seemingly interminable Tyrion travelogue in the books--then the show fans wouldn't have found the Tyrion plot so draggy in the show? I very, very much doubt it; my impression was that book fans certainly didn't find the Griff storyline as riveting as you suggest. In fact, my impression was that book fans--apart from the hardcore purists who cannot seem to find fault with GRRM no matter what--were annoyed at the amount of time and attention lavished on a likely fake Targaryen who's not going to matter in the end result in any event. I also doubt your suggestion that the mystery of the Griffs is "meaningful incident," given that the writers' decision to omit Aegon from the show strongly suggests that Book Aegon is just as expendable and pointless as the hardcore book readers have always suspected him to be.

I never said everybody liked it, but it was a major development, whereas in the corresponding show scenes it really was just Tyrion and Varys bickering.  The fact that it's being omitted as the showrunners heavily pare down the story toward the end doesn't mean it's pointless, by any means, given that GRRM has had the "mummer's dragon" stuff in the works since the second book and it's the endgame of Varys' whole scheme.

[benteen]

Tyrion's character has largely suffered in the books and on the show by being taken out of his familiar King's Landing haunts and being dumped into the Essos storylines.

[SeanC]

GRRM finally read that Aeron chapter at Balticon.  There's a Twitter summary here.  In brief:

Spoiler

- Aeron was captured by Euron immediately after speaking with Victarion back in AFFC, had his tongue out, and is a captive on the Silence.

- Pyat Pree, the sorcerer from Qarth, is also a captive, and has had his legs cut off.

- Euron admits to Aeron that he killed three of his brothers.

- Euron has a suit of Valyrian steel armour.

- Aeron is made to drink some sort of potion and has a bunch of weird visions.

- Euron's fleet heads out to fight the oncoming Redwyne fleet.  Aeron is lashed to the prow of the Silence, along with Falia Flowers (the Hewett bastard from AFFC), who is pregnant with Euron's child and had her tongue cut out when she expected to be his salt wife.

[WindyNights]

Here's a more detailed version with a lot of great stuff in it: 

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VuqHngBpOZ1p0jqkD7xRTCHExMFwBa8qE7VCLsKXzxU/mobilebasic?pli=1

 

goddamn this is amazing 

[Bill1978]

Just release the book already LOL

I have been wondering lately if the reason why GRRM can't finish this books at a decent speed is more to do with the narrative structure of the series as opposed to focus etc. I recently re-watched a couple of Harry Potter movies and it got me thinking about the story structure Rowling used with the structure used by GRRM. Now I am happy to be proven wrong as I confess that I have not managed to finish Book 1 of ASOIAF, and am basing my thoughts of reading outlines of the events online

Both authors told/are telling one large story over a series of book, with the main difference being each book in the Harry Potter series is a self contained story with major plot points of the big story woven into it. Ask anybody what a particular Potter book is about and they can give you a brief outline of the main event. GRRM seems to have started off writing his series like that. A self contained plot with little bits of tantalising clues to the bigger picture and some side plots that don't connect to the main plot but serve the bigger overall plot. Book 1's plot (for me anyway) is based around Ned discovering Twincest, Book 2 appears to be about the War of Kings. Starting with Book 3 it gets harder to nail down the general plot and the side stories start to dominate until in Book 4 and 5 everything seems to be side plots with little pay off.

I wonder if GRRM had taken an approach similar to JKR and had a main plot of each book that was different to the preceding one, if that could have kept him focused and interested in completing the series sooner. I'm not really sure if the series leds itself to a Harry Potter approach, but it seems that GRRM has lost interest in the story as a whole cause the big event is driving the book, instead of a 'fresh' new story to hold his interest. I feel all these extra POV characters that have appeared since Book 1 is GRRM trying to retain interest in something he isn't passionate about anymore.

Not sure if anything I've typed make sense, and sorry if I'm nowhere near the mark not having read all the books. But it was just something I noticed after talking to someone who has read the books and they struggled to tell me the basic plot of the last 3 books without having to explain each character's plot, compared to the first 2 books which they had an easier time briefly saying what it was about.

[benteen]

5 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Here's a more detailed version with a lot of great stuff in it: 

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VuqHngBpOZ1p0jqkD7xRTCHExMFwBa8qE7VCLsKXzxU/mobilebasic?pli=1

 

goddamn this is amazing 

Someone noted on one of the message boards that the fans who chose to hear the Arianne chapter over this one made a mistake.  That is definitely true.

Spoiler

Euron actually manages to knock Joffrey out of the Top 3 monsters in Westeros.  He's up there now with Ramsay and Gregor.  Very grim chapter but it seems like a lot happens.

[Eyes High]

While at Balticon, GRRM apparently advised that he still has "a ways to go" on TWOW. Also, friendly reminder that the Aeron chapter was written before 2011.

Aeron chapter: I'm going to take this and shove it in the face of the next person who claims that GRRM doesn't do torture porn. Ugh.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Eyes High

[WindyNights]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

While at Balticon, GRRM apparently advised that he still has "a ways to go" on TWOW. Also, friendly reminder that the Aeron chapter was written before 2011.

Aeron chapter: I'm going to take this and shove it in the face of the next person who claims that GRRM doesn't do torture porn. Ugh.

I think in Euron's case it's justified. Magic is powered by human suffering and sacrifice in this universe for the most part 

[GreyBunny]

Yeah, only death pays for life and magic has a cost.  No sparkles and unicorns in this world...well, they have unicorns but they probably have a venomous bite or something.

As for Euron, I knew he was a bad, treacherous dude but that chapter vaults him into the pantheon of Absolute Worst, tucked in neatly between Ramsay and Qyburn.

Edited May 31, 2016 by GreyBunny

[Avaleigh]

I think Euron is fighting it out with the Mountain for Biggest Douchebag in Westeros. Ramsay is a very strong bronze medalist.

Raping and murdering his brothers, jeez, I can't believe that I'm saying at least the Mountain didn't rape the Hound.

There is absolutely no line that Euron won't cross. What a ballsy little prick too to piss in the ocean after kiling one of his brothers and basically daring the Storm God to strike him down. I can't tell if Euron is an atheist or arrogant or deluded enough to think that he's essentially a god in his own right as his show counterpart seems to suggest.

The most interesting part to me was how Euron is collecting priests for a magic ritual and seems to be suggesting that there's power in the blood of holy men. What's this about?

Isn't it strange that the armor fits Euron so perfectly? Do we really think that he went to Valyria wnd just happened to find all of this cool shit when nobody else in hundreds of years has been able to do the same? I think the Reader was right to be skeptical of whether or not Euron was telling the truth.

Where are they getting all of this shade of the evening? The warlocks had that tree in their backyard and Euron is guzzling it like he has an endless supply on the ship.

I'm very curious now as to the significance of Balon confirming that Euron lost his mind during a storm. What happened there and are we going to find out more? Why did he decide he needed silence? What did these guys see? 

[WindyNights]

2 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I think Euron is fighting it out with the Mountain for Biggest Douchebag in Westeros. Ramsay is a very strong bronze medalist.

  Hide contents

Raping and murdering his brothers, jeez, I can't believe that I'm saying at least the Mountain didn't rape the Hound.

 

 

  Hide contents

There is absolutely no line that Euron won't cross. What a ballsy little prick too to piss in the ocean after kiling one of his brothers and basically daring the Storm God to strike him down. I can't tell if Euron is an atheist or arrogant or deluded enough to think that he's essentially a god in his own right as his show counterpart seems to suggest.

 

 

  Hide contents

The most interesting part to me was how Euron is collecting priests for a magic ritual and seems to be suggesting that there's power in the blood of holy men. What's this about?

 

 

  Hide contents

Isn't it strange that the armor fits Euron so perfectly? Do we really think that he went to Valyria wnd just happened to find all of this cool shit when nobody else in hundreds of years has been able to do the same? I think the Reader was right to be skeptical of whether or not Euron was telling the truth.

 

 

  Hide contents

Where are they getting all of this shade of the evening? The warlocks had that tree in their backyard and Euron is guzzling it like he has an endless supply on the ship.

 

I'm very curious now as to the significance of Balon confirming that Euron lost his mind during a storm. What happened there and are we going to find out more? Why did he decide he needed silence? What did these guys see? 

The storm thing is show only

Euron was an evil prick since he was a kid. It's likely having powers like Bran went to his head but because he's less moral than Bran was as a kid he turned into a really shitty person. Euron is who Bran could become 

The full Aeron chapter is out now, guys 

 

https://angrygotfan.com/2016/05/29/the-winds-of-winter-the-damphair-part-1/

[Avaleigh]

I realize it's a show only thing. (That's why I didn't spoiler tag it.) I'm curious why the show chose to include the idea that Euron lost his mind during a storm and wonder if there's going to be significance to that based on what we know of this latest chapter.

I don't think Bran will be like Euron. Euron seems like he was awful from an early age.

[Lady S.]

13 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I realize it's a show only thing. (That's why I didn't spoiler tag it.) I'm curious why the show chose to include the idea that Euron lost his mind during a storm and wonder if there's going to be significance to that based on what we know of this latest chapter.

I think it was just a different way of establishing Euron's insanity, since I doubt the show is going to include his shade of the evening addiction. I do think that introductory scene had much more of the spirit of book Crow's Eye, and that that is supposed to be his true self, with the Trump-like persona just an act he used to win the Kingsmoot.

Spoiler

The murdering of his other two brothers is especially chilling because he must have quite young when he started his kinslaying. The first brother, Harlon, was their father's firstborn, with two more sons who died in infancy before Balon was born to the second Lady Greyjoy. So, at the very least, 4 years between Harlon and Euron, but probably more since they were from different marriages. 

Guess this chapter also established that full avuncular marriages are practiced outside the Targs, so Vic wasn't just being his stupid self when he thought Asha wanted to marry him.

Btw, here's a more complete transcript of the chapter for those who want less typos and to avoid visiting that other site. This blog eerily predicted Damphair's predicament, so I'd recommend their essay on Euron if you're looking for speculation. (The essay also provides a blood magic interpretation for the women Qyburn got from Cersei.)

[Cheshrkat]

On 5/30/2016 at 10:31 AM, Eyes High said:

Aeron chapter: I'm going to take this and shove it in the face of the next person who claims that GRRM doesn't do torture porn. Ugh.

This.  So much.  I'm so sad, because this chapter actually doesn't do anything to make me anticipate the next novel - quite the opposite.  The torture porn element is my least favorite part of ASOIAF.  I wince when I have to read about the Mountain knocking out someone's teeth, or yet another woman being raped, or even the villains suffering (forced to eat their own limbs), but I have always accepted that it's part of the price of the story.  But an entire chapter devoted to sadistic cruelty and suffering is not something I can get excited about, and more and more, it seems less likely that even if GRRM ever finishes the books, that I will feel the need to read the ending once I get a "show" ending.  Is this his idea of how the books and shows will be different experiences - more storylines and irrelevant characters means the opportunity to invent more torture scenes?

[WearyTraveler]

Well, I have my disappointments when it comes to Mr. Martin, but I don't think all his chapters are torture porn.  Out the last three chapters released (Alayne, Arianne and Aeron) only one has that element.

[nodorothyparker]

It confirms for me that IF he ever manages to finish another book that I'll probably be doing what I've long since assumed I'd be doing as it became clear that the show would end long before he will, if ever: Read the chapters about the people I still actually care about and then go back to read/skim/skip the rest as I see fit.  Knowing ahead of time that there's plenty more of characters being sadistic assholes because they can as part of some unwritten Worst Assholes of ASOIAF contest just streamlines how I manage that decision making process.

[Hecate7]

On 5/30/2016 at 3:31 AM, WindyNights said:

Here's a more detailed version with a lot of great stuff in it: 

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VuqHngBpOZ1p0jqkD7xRTCHExMFwBa8qE7VCLsKXzxU/mobilebasic?pli=1

 

goddamn this is amazing 

A nitpick, I know, but how can he

Spoiler

lick his lips and taste anything, without a tongue?

[GreyBunny]

16 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

A nitpick, I know, but how can he

  Hide contents

lick his lips and taste anything, without a tongue?

I think

Aeron still has his tongue. The other priests have been mutilated but Aaron hasn't...yet.

[Hanahope]

I guess now its a race as to who dies before finishing ASOFAI first, me or GRRM.

[stillshimpy]

Quote

This.  So much.  I'm so sad, because this chapter actually doesn't do anything to make me anticipate the next novel - quite the opposite.  The torture porn element is my least favorite part of ASOIAF.  I wince when I have to read about the Mountain knocking out someone's teeth, or yet another woman being raped, or even the villains suffering (forced to eat their own limbs), but I have always accepted that it's part of the price of the story.  But an entire chapter devoted to sadistic cruelty and suffering is not something I can get excited about, and more and more, it seems less likely that even if GRRM ever finishes the books, that I will feel the need to read the ending once I get a "show" ending.  Is this his idea of how the books and shows will be different experiences - more storylines and irrelevant characters means the opportunity to invent more torture scenes?

 

Yeah, I basically found the synopsis too unpleasant to actually warrant reading, let alone the actual chapter.  

Life is short.  I don't want to waste it on revulsion if I have a choice in the matter.  

I suspect I'm also going to end up reading the chapters of characters I care about and hoping that someone out there summarizes the details of all the chapters, so that I don't have to wade through that stuff.  

This has long been my complaint about Martin's more dreadful creations:  Someone would simply kill someone that horrible.  Martin seems to invest heavily in very sensationalized and largely fictionalized accounts of terrible rulers throughout history and takes those accounts as inspiration.  The problem is, they are largely fictionalized by either the rulers themselves to warn off would be enemies and invaders.  Or they are largely created after their deaths to destroy someone's legacy.  

Rulers have to be good at something to retain power for any length of time and they can't be seen to be that insanely cruel to those  that have served them in any capacity.   When a ruler, or leader, has actually been insanely cruel ....somebody, usually a group of somebodies get together and figure out the painfully obvious "Look, it's only a matter before Meanie McCrazypants decides to go after us and ours.  Yeah, he's gotta go."  

The only way to forestall that is to actually do good things with that rule, as well as terrible ones.  Ivan the Terrible was a real fucktard , but he actually did a lot of things FOR Russia and the Russian people that were positive.  

Not only do I not want to spend my time reading about Euron's Big Evil Adventure, complete with maggoty details,  I spend the entire time saying "Yeah, someone or a group of someones would kill that guy in fairly short order".   It's a rare dictator who gets to survive long without treating his (or her) inner circle very well indeed.  That Pudgy Evil Incarnate thing in North Korea brainwashes an entire country and treats them like shit, but his inner circle is treated well.  

You can basically be a Sadistic Creeper as long as you don't aim it at absolutely anyone and everyone. 

So not only do I end up just disgusted by those plot developments, I have to try and throttle down the "Oh come on, look, here's the problem with this character....he or she would get to act this way for...historically speaking?  About 24 months.  Plots to kill him or her would start early and gain traction and the only way to forestall that is to have them actually making life better in some regard for those around them." 

Drives me a bit batty. 

Sure, Monsters happen in the real world, but then something happens to the monsters to stop them monstering up the joint. 

Edited June 15, 2016 by stillshimpy

[polyhymnia]

^^^^^  It's also an argument about his ability to write gray characters.  He has monstrous, unrealistic villains with no corresponding overly good people (Jon, Davos, Brienne, etc. all have realistic character flaws).  The monsterish bad guys (Euron, Ramsay, The Mountain) are completely over-the-top.  They hate men, women, children, puppies, horses, and rainbows.  They would spit on you because it's Monday and they are EVIL.  I read that chapter and did a lot of eye rolling.  The Mountain works a bit because he is protected by the Lannisters and is just their instrument.  Ramsay is really about Theon/Reek and showing you that all the vengeance you wanted for the Starks wrt Theon is a wrong instinct - he is more of an instrument for the plot.  But Euron?  He is a kinslayer and a crazy-pants that I think even the Ironborn would be tripping over each other to off.

[benteen]

One other thing about all his casual bad guys.  They're all ugly and/or fat.  Every single one of them.

Even guys like Kevan and Mace are fat.

Edited June 15, 2016 by benteen

[mac123x]

I finally got around to reading Arianne 2.  It was mildly interesting, but after I finished all I could think was "just publish the fucking book already."   It seems like these teaser chapters are basically in the same vein as JK Rowling coming out with allegedly interesting bits of info that the fans want to know (Luna Lovegood married X!  etc.).  But, as stupid as this drivel is from JKR, at least she had the decency to finish her books first.

 

I think I'll let dinner digest for a bit before trying that Aeron chapter; it sounds horrific.

[mac123x]

I read the Aeron chapter.  I was particularly grossed out by the thought of someone standing in seawater for days and the description of the results. 

 

The part that really bugged me is GRRM is making Euron into a Villain Sue.  Antagonists who have everything go right for them are boring.

[WindyNights]

On June 15, 2016 at 9:06 AM, stillshimpy said:

 

Yeah, I basically found the synopsis too unpleasant to actually warrant reading, let alone the actual chapter.  

Life is short.  I don't want to waste it on revulsion if I have a choice in the matter.  

I suspect I'm also going to end up reading the chapters of characters I care about and hoping that someone out there summarizes the details of all the chapters, so that I don't have to wade through that stuff.  

This has long been my complaint about Martin's more dreadful creations:  Someone would simply kill someone that horrible.  Martin seems to invest heavily in very sensationalized and largely fictionalized accounts of terrible rulers throughout history and takes those accounts as inspiration.  The problem is, they are largely fictionalized by either the rulers themselves to warn off would be enemies and invaders.  Or they are largely created after their deaths to destroy someone's legacy.  

Rulers have to be good at something to retain power for any length of time and they can't be seen to be that insanely cruel to those  that have served them in any capacity.   When a ruler, or leader, has actually been insanely cruel ....somebody, usually a group of somebodies get together and figure out the painfully obvious "Look, it's only a matter before Meanie McCrazypants decides to go after us and ours.  Yeah, he's gotta go."  

The only way to forestall that is to actually do good things with that rule, as well as terrible ones.  Ivan the Terrible was a real fucktard , but he actually did a lot of things FOR Russia and the Russian people that were positive.  

Not only do I not want to spend my time reading about Euron's Big Evil Adventure, complete with maggoty details,  I spend the entire time saying "Yeah, someone or a group of someones would kill that guy in fairly short order".   It's a rare dictator who gets to survive long without treating his (or her) inner circle very well indeed.  That Pudgy Evil Incarnate thing in North Korea brainwashes an entire country and treats them like shit, but his inner circle is treated well.  

You can basically be a Sadistic Creeper as long as you don't aim it at absolutely anyone and everyone. 

So not only do I end up just disgusted by those plot developments, I have to try and throttle down the "Oh come on, look, here's the problem with this character....he or she would get to act this way for...historically speaking?  About 24 months.  Plots to kill him or her would start early and gain traction and the only way to forestall that is to have them actually making life better in some regard for those around them." 

Drives me a bit batty. 

Sure, Monsters happen in the real world, but then something happens to the monsters to stop them monstering up the joint. 

The difference here is that Euron's a powerful wizard so it'd be less likely that people would revolt against him. 

And I don't think Euron is planning so much as ruling but more like dominating people and planning on achieving god-like power. Think Sauron/Saruman from Mordor.

This is a pretty cool post from PQ who predicted this was the direction Euron's character was going years ago:

I think he arrives in Oldtown as a dragonrider, yes. Vic blows Dragonbinder (and burn from within) in his second TWOW chapter, the dragon caught by it takes off westward, and we next see it again being ridden by Euron. For him to have ensorceled Fire with one horn even as he summons Ice with another is the perfect encapsulation of Euron’s MO, namely conquering all meta-narratives, absorbing all ideologies (even oppositional ones) into his singular stew of eldritch evil. It’s entirely possible he’s got some kraken/Deep Ones related force at his command, too, after the aforementioned sacrifice on the open water. Not for nothing did GRRM have both Varys and Valena Toland, three books apart, report krakens rising from the depths. And we know from WOIAF that the Deep Ones built the base of the aforementioned Hightower. If I’m right that Euron is ASOIAF Saruman to the Others’ Sauron, that the old gods are his Valar, the glass candles his palantir, and the Hightower his Orthanc, well…he needs him some Uruk-Hai, and the Deep Ones fit the half-human bill disturbingly well.

[WindyNights]

4 hours ago, mac123x said:

I read the Aeron chapter.  I was particularly grossed out by the thought of someone standing in seawater for days and the description of the results. 

 

The part that really bugged me is GRRM is making Euron into a Villain Sue.  Antagonists who have everything go right for them are boring.

But he hasn't. He was planning on taking all his ships to Daenerys but the ironborn blocked him from doing that so he had to send Victarion instead. Right now GRRM is in the phase where he's trying to make us take Euron seriously. Hence all the visions of him killing gods, sitting the Iron Throne etc. He's Big Bad material and most likely the Big Bad for the South as the Others are for the North.

Euron is GRRM's other take on the Dark Lord archetype. Stannis was his first.

[WindyNights]

22 hours ago, polyhymnia said:

^^^^^  It's also an argument about his ability to write gray characters.  He has monstrous, unrealistic villains with no corresponding overly good people (Jon, Davos, Brienne, etc. all have realistic character flaws).  The monsterish bad guys (Euron, Ramsay, The Mountain) are completely over-the-top.  They hate men, women, children, puppies, horses, and rainbows.  They would spit on you because it's Monday and they are EVIL.  I read that chapter and did a lot of eye rolling.  The Mountain works a bit because he is protected by the Lannisters and is just their instrument.  Ramsay is really about Theon/Reek and showing you that all the vengeance you wanted for the Starks wrt Theon is a wrong instinct - he is more of an instrument for the plot.  But Euron?  He is a kinslayer and a crazy-pants that I think even the Ironborn would be tripping over each other to off.

But they don't know that. Even Aeron was amazed that Euron was going as far as kinslaying.

Euron's very good at pretending he's ironborn when he doesn't really care about them and the ones that do know are terrified of him.

Also all these people have reasons for why they're evil. The Mountain is suffering from gigantism and is constantly in pain and on opium. His bad tempers stem from that. 

Ramsay seems to have been born a psychopath. Roose certainly thinks it's genetic. But Ramsay was also raised wrong by some bad-smelling weirdo named Reek who Roose sent as a joke and probably further corrupted Ramsay. Ramsay also idolizes the Bolton name and looking to mirror what he thinks the Boltons are all about. 

Euron seems to have been born a very powerful skinchanger and all clues point to Bloodraven trying to recruit him. He's Bran's evil counterpart and Bran himself is already doing morally evil stuff with his powers like taking over Hodor without his consent.

 

Now think little kid+ raised in a culture that loves violence+ entitled life+ magic powers= Euron, a person who believes he's naturally superior to everyone else even the gods, and is willing to cross any line because he thinks taboos are stupid because there are no gods or because the gods won't punish him 

[Eyes High]

4 hours ago, mac123x said:

The part that really bugged me is GRRM is making Euron into a Villain Sue.  Antagonists who have everything go right for them are boring.

Euron is so ludicrously over the top at this point that it's impossible for me to take him seriously. Whoever called him an anime villain summed him up pretty accurately.

[WindyNights]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Euron is so ludicrously over the top at this point that it's impossible for me to take him seriously. Whoever called him an anime villain summed him up pretty accurately.

I think that's kind of the point. 

made in myr: 

 “If you think Euron is over the top, give him silver-blonde hair and purple eyes and you’ll have a collective portrait of the class that ruled the world for thousands of years.”

He's positioning himself as Valyria's heir.

Edited June 16, 2016 by WindyNights

[ulkis]

On 6/15/2016 at 7:36 PM, mac123x said:

I finally got around to reading Arianne 2.  It was mildly interesting, but after I finished all I could think was "just publish the fucking book already."

Yeah. Although honestly I've long stopped thinking he is going to finish/publish.

What brought me over to this thread is someone in the latest episode thread said something like, "it probably won't play out like this in the books, but . . . " and I'm still kinda shocked people think he is going to finish? If he were serious about wrapping it up I think he would make "Winds" his last book. 

Edited June 20, 2016 by ulkis

[ulkis]

On 6/4/2016 at 9:57 AM, Cheshrkat said:

This.  So much.  I'm so sad, because this chapter actually doesn't do anything to make me anticipate the next novel - quite the opposite.  The torture porn element is my least favorite part of ASOIAF.  I wince when I have to read about the Mountain knocking out someone's teeth, or yet another woman being raped, or even the villains suffering (forced to eat their own limbs), but I have always accepted that it's part of the price of the story.  But an entire chapter devoted to sadistic cruelty and suffering is not something I can get excited about, and more and more, it seems less likely that even if GRRM ever finishes the books, that I will feel the need to read the ending once I get a "show" ending.  Is this his idea of how the books and shows will be different experiences - more storylines and irrelevant characters means the opportunity to invent more torture scenes?

I think it's more like more storylines and irrelevant characters means the opportunity to avoid trying to bring everything to a satisfying conclusion. At this point I think most people will be happy with anything that isn't "and ice zombies eat everyone except Baelish." But maybe I'm wrong. I'm easy though, so I would be.

[Hanahope]

Part of me wonders if he'll ever publish now that the show is providing many of the answers to the story, even if its more of a cliff notes version of events.  Certainly,  I do not expect to even see this book until after the show is completely done. If getting the story out with his own words and his own version of events before the show wasn't motivation enough, then there's certainly none now that the show has usurped the storyline.  

At this point,  I think it will take a few years after the show is done, when GRRM goes around and finds that no one really cares all that much about him anymore, they know how the story ends,for the most part at least, and he's ridden that wave as long as he can.  Maybe he'll want that spotlight back and he'll get his back up to show that he does still matter, his version still matters and he'll 'show us' that by rapidly writing/publishing the final two books within a couple years of each other.  Of course, that's if he still cares that much.

So maybe, with any luck, we'll have the written story done in another 7-8 years.

[Fable]

2 hours ago, Hanahope said:

If getting the story out with his own words and his own version of events before the show wasn't motivation enough, then there's certainly none now that the show has usurped the storyline.  

I’m almost certain GRRM has no intention of finishing this series.  It seems like he has written himself into a corner that he doesn’t know how to get out of and is more than happy to allow someone else to finish it for him. Allowing the TV show to overtake him allows him to save face as an author, rather than handing the reins over to another writer.  If this story was still a passion of his, I don’t think he would be content to place its outcome in someone else’s hands.  Why would he sign over the story telling rights to someone when his story remained untold if he intended to finish it. 

[WindyNights]

On 29 June 2016 at 0:58 AM, Fable said:

I’m almost certain GRRM has no intention of finishing this series.  It seems like he has written himself into a corner that he doesn’t know how to get out of and is more than happy to allow someone else to finish it for him. Allowing the TV show to overtake him allows him to save face as an author, rather than handing the reins over to another writer.  If this story was still a passion of his, I don’t think he would be content to place its outcome in someone else’s hands.  Why would he sign over the story telling rights to someone when his story remained untold if he intended to finish it. 

I think reactions like this stem from anger.

 

You can tell GRRM is being eaten up inside by the fact that the show will spoil parts of his books. 

Even bringing up the show to him makes him unhappy and he's stopped watching it.

Edited July 1, 2016 by SilverStormm
Please be civil.

[Avaleigh]

On 29 June 2016 at 5:50 PM, WindyNights said:

I think reactions like this stem from anger.

 

You can tell GRRM is being eaten up inside by the fact that the show will spoil parts of his books. 

Even bringing up the show to him makes him unhappy and he's stopped watching it.

If this is the case then GRRM only has himself to blame. I get the impression that he's unhappy with the showrunners and HBO, but I'm not terribly sympathetic to him and haven't seen evidence at all that he's busted his ass to finish on time and the showrunners are just being mean jerks by not finding a way to stretch out the story because GRRM either can't or is unwilling to compromise when it comes to his writing process.

Things like not writing while he travels. It's not like he wasn't fully aware that he has this issue, so rather than cutting back a little on traveling years ago back when it would have mattered more, or maybe deciding that he'd attempt to put aside a set amount of writing time each time he travels, he just continued to allow himself to drag his feet until it was too late.

I'm not pouting about not getting his ending. If I get it that's awesome, if not then the show is going to answer my big questions. I'm responding to GRRM being unhappy with D&D for doing what he always knew they would have to do if he couldn't get the material done on time. GRRM had more than enough time and even had a head start with all of the material that was cut from ADWD, and five years wasn't enough? It would be very different if he hadn't demonstrated that he's capable of writing at a much faster pace given the first three books. 

I can't imagine the pressure of having to adapt a series when there's a massive unfinished gap where you just have to guess about how certain things play out because even the author himself doesn't quite know how certain characters get wherever they end up going. 

There was a clear lack of discipline and compromise on GRRM's part IMO and I think that's the primary reason he failed to finish the sixth book on time. He fully admitted that he has a problem saying no and would over commit himself. I have to think that more readers care about getting the sixth book over something like the world book. 

I understand not wanting him to have to rush and sacrifice the quality of his writing. Unfortunately, we've seen that the writing has suffered even when he's given all the time he feels he needs. If he were concerned about meeting a deadline maybe he'd be less inclined to include some of the stuff that has only bloated the story.

On 28 June 2016 at 10:01 PM, Hanahope said:

Part of me wonders if he'll ever publish now that the show is providing many of the answers to the story, even if its more of a cliff notes version of events.  Certainly,  I do not expect to even see this book until after the show is completely done. If getting the story out with his own words and his own version of events before the show wasn't motivation enough, then there's certainly none now that the show has usurped the storyline.

At this point,  I think it will take a few years after the show is done, when GRRM goes around and finds that no one really cares all that much about him anymore, they know how the story ends,for the most part at least, and he's ridden that wave as long as he can.  Maybe he'll want that spotlight back and he'll get his back up to show that he does still matter, his version still matters and he'll 'show us' that by rapidly writing/publishing the final two books within a couple years of each other.  Of course, that's if he still cares that much.

So maybe, with any luck, we'll have the written story done in another 7-8 years.

I agree with the bit in bold. If the show isn't motivation enough then nothing will be. 

The funny thing is, we all know how deluded GRRM was about being able to be given more time when he made absurd suggestions years ago about delays and theatrical wrap up movies that got him in hot water with HBO. That made it clear to me back then that he hadn't heard the word 'no' in awhile at that point.

[Fable]

On 29 June 2016 at 5:50 PM, WindyNights said:

I think reactions like this stem from anger.

I can see why you might think that, although it’s not really the case.  I had read a few different blogs and articles this week about the TV series and the books, which lead me to that theory.  At this point, it doesn’t matter to me whether he finishes or not.  I didn’t really enjoy the books all that much, and the only reason I read them is because I didn’t want to wait years and years to find out what happened.  Since the TV show has now overtaken the books, I see no need to read them. I hope he does finish them for the sake of his fans who want to read them.  I’m not angry, just making an observation about what may be the reason that the books are not yet finished. 

[benteen]

Yeah, I enjoyed the World Book but stuff like that should be written after the main book is done.  I think GRRM is more interested in these side projects and the world building aspect than the actual novels themselves.  I think the drive to finish them is gone, done in by writers block, distractions and wanting to do new projects.  Not to mention GRRM has become so successful that he doesn't need to listen to an editor anymore.

I completely agree with Aveleigh about how GRRM has been behaving in regards to D&D.  He knew that they planned on finishing the story and I think D&D held off on certain story revelations as long as they could.  But that still wasn't motivation enough for GRRM to finish the books and that's completely on him.

[ElizaD]

Today it's been five years since ADWD was published.

On 29. kesäkuuta 2016 at 9:01 PM, Avaleigh said:

If this is the case then GRRM only has himself to blame. I get the impression that he's unhappy with the showrunners and HBO, but I'm not terribly sympathetic to him and haven't seen evidence at all that he's busted his ass to finish on time and the showrunners are just being mean jerks by not finding a way to stretch out the story because GRRM either can't or is unwilling to compromise when it comes to his writing process.

GRRM has been too optimistic about his progress for a long long time, but I've also come to feel that he actually believed some of the things he suggested in 2012-2014 interviews. Many fans started worrying about the show passing the books as soon as they finished ADWD, but GRRM kept on talking about movies and the show taking years to do AFFC and then ADWD. Now the showrunners want to rush to the end with 13 episodes after season 6, which would have been the second half (or as little as 2/3?) of AFFC, I guess, in a GRRM fantasy, rather than the massively spoilery TWOW climaxes we got.

[Minneapple]

I didn't realize GRRM didn't watch the show anymore. I know he doesn't do press or appearances for it, but I figured that was part of his "I'm just going to write, not do anything else" attempt at finishing Winds of Winter.

I think D&D were dicking around last year, not really moving the story forward because they wanted to wait and see if he could finish the book, and that hurt the show a lot. In (the much improved) season six we got the Tower of Joy -- but even so D&D have held off on some of the revelations from that, perhaps still out of respect for GRRM's work. And I know the two-season split of the final episodes is likely because of the almighty dollar, but maybe there's a wee bit of hope left in HBO and D&D that he can at least get that sixth book out before the show ends.

There are good and bad things about the books, and good and bad things about the show. Neither one is a perfect work. But at some point I gotta have an ending. I know the show is going to give me that. I'll probably wind up reading the books at some point (if we ever get the books), skimming past the travelogues and worldbuilding and other crap that doesn't matter, looking for the Big Revelations to see how they match up with the show.

[benteen]

Game of Thrones Season 7 won't be back until the Summer of 2017.  I'm predicting that GRRM still won't have finished The Winds of Winter by then.

[nodorothyparker]

But he'll have released at least one, maybe two more preview chapters that have been in the can for half a decade and still don't answer anything people actually want answers to.

[Hanahope]

On 7/12/2016 at 1:00 PM, ElizaD said:

GRRM has been too optimistic about his progress for a long long time, but I've also come to feel that he actually believed some of the things he suggested in 2012-2014 interviews. Many fans started worrying about the show passing the books as soon as they finished ADWD, but GRRM kept on talking about movies and the show taking years to do AFFC and then ADWD.

Obviously GRRM has no clue as to how TV works.  While sure its possible for a show to last a decade, its extremely rare, especially for a drama.  Of those that do last that long, the majority are the episodic type crime/legal/medical shows, and this was obviously not a "soap opera" type show like Dallas.  It was a show with a specific story to tell and you just can't have those go on ad infinitum. People need an ending and have short attention spans.

[Advance35]

GRRM's New Book

So Georgie Peorgie is releasing a new book it just won't be the latest in the ASOIAF saga.   A few here have speculated that the only thing holding up TWOW is a lack of motivation and interest on the part of GRRM and it looks like that really is the case.

[WearyTraveler]

Well, not that I'm defending him, but, from the article linked above:

Quote

"I am not writing anything until I deliver WINDS OF WINTER. Teleplays, screenplays, short stories, introductions, forewords, nothing," he wrote on his blog. But wait, there's a catch, he added, "And I've dropped all my editing projects but Wild Cards."

and also:

Quote

George RR Martin is about to release "High Stakes" [.......] said book is the latest installment in the anthology superheroes series, "Wild Cards."

So, it seems the book that's coming out is not written by George, only edited by George.

That said, yeah, I think he has somehow lost his love for the main story, while still adoring the world he built and all the unexplored history in it.  He said himself that once he knew how a story would end, he lost interest in it, so, I'm of the opinion that the biggest challenge for him is precisely that.

[benteen]

Yeah, I think you've summed up my thoughts as well.  He loves the world-building aspect but I don't think he has any real interest or drive in the main story anymore. 

[glowbug]

Agreed. I think someone mentioned that at some convention (I think the one where he read the long ago written Damphair chapter) GRRM said he was no where near close to finishing TWoW and that wasn't too long ago. I really think he needs a ghostwriter/co-author. He just doesn't have the motivation and I think he owes it to the fans to finish the series. I get that sometimes unavoidable things happen like unexpected death, illness, mental health issues, etc. but that's clearly not the case here. At least if he gets another writer involved now he'll be able to have a lot of input on how the remaining books are written as opposed to it happening posthumously based on whatever notes he has written.