The Winds Of Winter: Book 6 Will Arrive...Someday

[Avaleigh]

Kivara, I was a little dismayed when I first read that quote. 

 

Couple that with comments about how he doesn't like talking about the books with the fans, I think he's just kind of over it in a way. It wouldn't irritate me so much if he'd be willing to admit to needing some help or fresh eyes or whatever. Instead it's like he doesn't really want to finish, it's a pain in the ass obligation at this point, but he wants to hang on to it and his vision of it even if that means the thing never gets done.  

 

This is an exaggeration but it sort of reminds me of that Regina quote from Mean Girls about how she had this fabulous doll house that she'd outgrown and didn't want to play with anymore, but once she sees some other kid playing with her doll house and enjoying the shit out of it, she decides to smash it to pieces because she doesn't want anybody to have it even though she was done playing it forever. I know it isn't exactly the same thing but that's the basic vibe that I get from GRRM. I defended GRRM for a couple of years too but certain comments that he's made over the years particularly about the show outpacing the books have just rubbed me the wrong way and I wish someone close to him had the balls to tell him to wake the fuck up.

[Constantinople]

All this makes me glad that I read the books only recently, and only after watching the show first.

 

According to Wikipedia, the official publishing date for Game of Thrones was August 6, 1996.  A person born that day would be a few months away from completing the first year of college.

 

If I had been reading a series that long, with no end in sight, I'd be out of my tree.

 

Plus we JonSnowieComeLatelies have the benefit of decades of accumulated wisdom.

[benteen]

I suppose the quote below explains why he prefers to write about new people and places and is unlikely to finish the other stories:

 

"I find that if I know exactly where a book is going I lose all interest in writing it" (https://racefortheironthrone.wordpress.com/2015/02/04/quick-analysis-of-the-ur-text/)

That line really explains everything that's happened with the books, especially from 2000 on.  He comes up with new ideas and starts chasing them.  I don't see what's so bad about following certain things to their logical conclusion.

[BlackberryJam]

The problem isn't following some storylines to see where they go, it's LAND THE FUCKING PLANE ALREADY. He's had five books to plant seeds, explore stories, create worlds and characters, write food porn and travelogues.  It's time to bring it all to a conclusion.  He needs to start shrinking the world and pulling everything together rather than expanding it.

 

I write and yes, I enjoy working a character or a b-story (or c, d, e, f, g...story) to see where it leads me, but I know damn well the story has to end.

 

GRRM has put all the pieces in place. It's time to move them and stop adding more.

 

Sorry, it's a mini-rant.  I also came to the books late.

Edited February 21, 2015 by BlackberryJam

[Danny Franks]

The problem isn't following some storylines to see where they go, it's LAND THE FUCKING PLANE ALREADY. He's had five books to plant seeds, explore stories, create worlds and characters, write food porn and travelogues.  It's time to bring it all to a conclusion.  He needs to start shrinking the world and pulling everything together rather than expanding it.

 

This. A story should have an ending, and it should be an emotionally satisfying one. Whether it's happy, sad, bittersweet or whatever, it should leave the reader with a feeling of fulfilment and pleasure that they've read it.

 

It should not just be a bunch of ideas thrown onto the page and developed endlessly, then diverging into yet more ideas, and then yet more. If that's what GRRM wanted to do, then that's fine, it's up to him. But in that case, he should have stuck to short stories and anthologies, and not endeavoured to write a fantasy epic that he expected readers to invest in. He seems bored by his own work, and captivated by all the new ideas that he should have the discipline to exclude from this series. The man badly needs an editor who will just come out and tell him, 'this bit needs to go, that bit needs to get moving'. He won't ever have one who tells him that, so that's just the way it is.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Danny Franks

[Winnief]

http://www.denofgeek.us/tv/game-of-thrones/243892/game-of-thrones-should-asoiaf-readers-avoid-the-show

 

Of course the elephant in the room, the author of this doesn't address, is the increasingly strong possibility the books may never be finished at all.

[ElizaD]

It should not just be a bunch of ideas thrown onto the page and developed endlessly, then diverging into yet more ideas, and then yet more. If that's what GRRM wanted to do, then that's fine, it's up to him. But in that case, he should have stuck to short stories and anthologies, and not endeavoured to write a fantasy epic that he expected readers to invest in. He seems bored by his own work, and captivated by all the new ideas that he should have the discipline to exclude from this series. The man badly needs an editor who will just come out and tell him, 'this bit needs to go, that bit needs to get moving'. He won't ever have one who tells him that, so that's just the way it is.

 

He didn't want to listen to his current editor's comments about removing some of his repetitive phrases, I can't imagine anyone getting him to listen to a suggestion that, say, Quentyn shouldn't have been a POV before his arrival in Meereen. Worldbooks and short stories really do feel like the kind of thing that interests him now.

 

It can be difficult to deliver a good climax after buildup that's created high expectations, but if it works, it's amazing. The GOT showrunners have cut many plots and a lot of the character complexity that I loved in the books, but at least I have complete faith that they want to conclude this story and tell us what happens to the main characters we started out with.

[benteen]

I'm fine with the show overtaking the books now.  That's the scenario GRRM has left everyone with.  Now I have to be careful not to avoid spoilers to the show itself, even though the books will very likely be much different.  I really enjoy the show and have never had a thought of not watching it because the books aren't written.  I'm convinced now that the show is the only way to resolve the story that GRRM originally plan before he started chasing plot points.

Edited February 21, 2015 by benteen

[GreyBunny]

^ This to the two posts above. 

 

A year ago I was really chomping at the bit for a new book and any scrap of information that would come along.  I have now come to terms that this book probably won't be finished for a couple of years, the series might not be finished at all, and the show will probably provide the only conclusion.  Fortunately, I've found other Shiny Things (Hannibal, The Walking Dead, etc.) to distract me so I don't feel so grumpy about it.

 

Ideally GRRM would listen to his editor, finish the books in an approrpiately timely fashion, and save the side stories, travelogues, and other detours for short stories, anthologies and re-released expanded editions (milk more money out of it that way).  But, yeah.  Not going to happen. 

Edited February 23, 2015 by GreyBunny

[benteen]

Yeah, I think The Winds of Winter will be done eventually, probably in a year or two.  After that, I have no hopes whatsoever.  I think writing this series has now become a chore for GRRM.

[Winnief]

This relates to a post I just made in the tv vs. books thread...how big a role exactly is Euron Greyjoy going to play in the series?!?  Will he manage to take Oldtown or not and if so how far will that Iron Born invasion get before it's inevitably quashed?!? 

 

Personally I wouldn't be surprised to see Cersei allying herself with Euron against the Tyrell's and the Reach.

[Avaleigh]

I can see a marriage between Euron and Cersei in a way but there are a few things that give me doubts. Mainly Cersei in that she doesn't seem like she's willing to marry anyone even if it's to her advantage because she had such a bad experience the first time. If Cersei isn't willing to marry mild mannered and wealthy Willas, why would she go for a man like Euron Greyjoy? Surely he has a foul reputation in the rest of the seven kingdoms and not just the Iron Islands. 

 

Does Euron need her? Wouldn't he do better to go for Arianne or even Margaery? It's not like Cersei gives Euron so much as a toehold on the Iron Throne. Plus, what would he think Daenerys would say if he'd just recently been in bed with a Lannister? I know he doesn't care but wouldn't he think Dany would? 

[Winnief]

I can see a marriage between Euron and Cersei in a way but there are a few things that give me doubts. Mainly Cersei in that she doesn't seem like she's willing to marry anyone even if it's to her advantage because she had such a bad experience the first time. If Cersei isn't willing to marry mild mannered and wealthy Willas, why would she go for a man like Euron Greyjoy?

 

 

Desperate times might call for desperate measures...and as we know Euron isn't opposed to the notion of marriage by proxy.  Aka Asha being "married" to Erik Anvilbreaker, as represented by her seal.  And these days Cersei isn't in a position to be too picky.  Euron does have a powerful Navy, she's gonna need reinforcements....and there's no one else, and I mean NO ONE, that Cersei could hope to make ally with at this point.   Stannis Baratheon is her sworn enemy, House Martell hates her family, House Tyrell hates her personally, whatever happens with the Riverlands and the Vale they sure as shit can't be counted on to offer her support,  and the North is absolutely out of the question too. She's burned her bridges, with every important House in Westeros...except the Greyjoy's and I don't think that was a coincidence.   

 

Does Euron need her? Wouldn't he do better to go for Arianne or even Margaery? It's not like Cersei gives Euron so much as a toehold on the Iron Throne. Plus, what would he think Daenerys would say if he'd just recently been in bed with a Lannister? I know he doesn't care but wouldn't he think Dany would?

 

 

Well I for one don't believe for one minute that Euron really *expected* Vic to bring Dany home to be his salt wife.  ANd even if he had, Dany's about to be MIA and Vic's likely to die in the Battle of Mereen so that whole plan's a bust.  As for the other candidates...Arianne is almost sure to marry fAegon, (which is gonna be a BIG mistake on her part,) and there's no way in Seven Hells that Margaery Tyrell is going to marry the guy who sacked the Shield Islands and is circling Oldtown.  Highgarden's prize flower is NOT going to be wasted on a squid thank you very much!!! 

 

And while Cersei may not be a path to the Iron Throne per se, she IS Lady of Casterly Rock-and the Westernlands, (especially Lannisport,) could be of use to Euron. 

Edited February 25, 2015 by Winnief

[mac123x]

This is an exaggeration but it sort of reminds me of that Regina quote from Mean Girls about how she had this fabulous doll house that she'd outgrown and didn't want to play with anymore, but once she sees some other kid playing with her doll house and enjoying the shit out of it, she decides to smash it to pieces because she doesn't want anybody to have it even though she was done playing it forever. I know it isn't exactly the same thing but that's the basic vibe that I get from GRRM.

 

GRRM = Gregor, Showrunners = Sandor, the series = Gregor's toy. 

 

Hopefully D&D don't have any meetings with him where there's an open fire.

[Winnief]

http://watchersonthewall.com/grrm-clearing-his-con-schedule-to-finish-the-winds-of-winter/

 

SeanC and I are both of the opinion that TWOW comes out in 2016-but probably not before Season 6....whether the series is ever finished is another question altogether.

[ElizaD]

That he's doing something makes 2016 more likely though not certain, but I admit it annoys me to think that he wouldn't start canceling cons years ago when he was talking about ten seasons and movie endings instead of being realistic.

 

It seems an unfortunately likely possibility that after TWOW, GRRM will focus on Targaryen history and novellas rather than books 7 and 8.

[Meredith Quill]

I remain ever the optimist (it's a coping mechanism ok); fingers, toes & eyes crossed for TWOW arriving before S6.

[ElizaD]

WOTW - Scientific Guess at George R.R. Martin’s Progress on The Winds of Winter

 

A ton of numbers and past updates. Guesses:

 

At the very height of optimism, George R.R. Martin would be able to write at his incredible 632 manuscript pages/year pace, but absolutely no one, including George, believes that this is happening or will happen. So, here’s the height of optimism data point: If George was able to write at his 2010 height and complete 374 new manuscript pages, he’d be at ~1200 total finalized manuscript pages by March 2015 with an expected completion date of around January-February 2016.

 

If you cornered me, put a gun to my head and told me to tell you how many completed manuscript pages are done for The Winds of Winter, I’d probably say that George is just north of 1000 manuscript pages with an expected completion date of late 2016 to early 2017. I think the average pace of 287 manuscript pages/year that George wrote between 2008 and 2010 is probably a good data point. If George had 1350 pages to write from the end of A Dance with Dragons, 287 average manuscript pages per year would have George finishing The Winds of Winter in early 2017.

Edited March 25, 2015 by ElizaD

[Holmbo]

New Sansa chapter!

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter/

[SeanC]

Per Elio Garcia, this is the much-overblown "controversial chapter":

 

@WarsofASOIAF Basically just the sudden burgeoning appearance of Alayne's sexuality, and that that focus happesn w/o reference to a certain other character

 

https://twitter.com/westerosorg/status/583617882988404736

[ElizaD]

After ten years of waiting, a new Sansa chapter. Thank you, GRRM! My first impression is that nothing much happens beyond her meeting with Harry, but she's clearly becoming the social player people have been predicting. The tourney being her idea is Sansa making both practical and entertaining use of her old dreams of chivalry.

 

@WarsofASOIAF Basically just the sudden burgeoning appearance of Alayne's sexuality, and that that focus happesn w/o reference to a certain other character

 

... was the controversy the absence of Sansan? Hilarious. I don't think I ever saw that suggested in all the speculation. After the Mercy chapter and the likelihood of Show Sansa/Ramsay, this is still incredibly mild stuff.

[Holmbo]

I really liked this chapter and it didn't feel uneventful to me. Seeing Sansa having recovered so much from all the terrible things that have happened to her and starting to play the game and enjoying it was really enjoyable to read. My only complain is why didn't George start this much sooner? Now it feels so abrupt compared to last chapter. Chronologically i mean not in our real time since it was 10 years ago.

I wonder what he planned for Sansa in the five year gap. Wouldn't 19 be a bit old to still be unmarried in those days? Though I guess if Tyrion was still considered to be alive they wouldn't be able to do much about it.

[Skeeter22]

After all the speculation about the "controversial" Sansa chapter, most of which included rape and, or child murder, that chapter was a breath of fresh air. A happy, relaxed Sansa seems to more Elizabeth Bennet than Lucrezia Borgia. That was certainly less dismaying than the Mercy chapter.

[Advance35]

I thought it was interesting.  IMO The Vale is one of the Seven Kingdoms where I really get a strong sense of atmosphere.   I picture lots of white marble but at the same time, architecture that's very gothic.   The show did a good job designing it as well.

 

It was interesting to read that Robin has gotten even MORE possessive of "Alayne" and she seems much better at handling him than she did in AFFC.  Now that she's not living under the CONSTANT and FORWARD threat of execution it's interesting to see how she's blossomed socially.  If she had a suitable teacher when she was younger, it's possible she could have given Margaery and Olenna a run for their money (though maybe it was thier influence) in terms of being a social butterfly at Court.  

 

Her quips to Harry were nicely delivered and appropriately witty.   I was a little taken aback when she said "Send whatsherface home, because I'm all the spice you'll need" or something to that effect, my eyebrows did reach my hairline.

 

It was also interesting to see that Littlefinger is making a concentrated effort to consolidate the supply of food available, as much as he can.  It will be a good weapon against his enemies when Winter hits and it will give him the upperhand in future barter scenarios.

 

I really like the Vale cast of characters, Lady Waynwood, I actually liked her Sons, Harry is interesting so far, Ser Shadrich, Luthor Brone (like the friendship that seems to be developing between he and Sansa), Mya, Myranda.  I'm intrigued.

[Cheshrkat]

I enjoyed the chapter well enough, but I can't help but feel somewhat disappointed.  After all these years, and so much speculation about where Sansa is heading, it feels to me like she's still just doing what she's told.  Littlefinger has her well in hand - there isn't even a hint about her feeling resentful about another marriage.  I don't know - she will definitely be a social asset, but this chapter did nothing to reinforce her as coming into her own.  Sansa may forever remain a puppet and never become a player in the game.

[Maximum Taco]

I enjoyed the chapter well enough, but I can't help but feel somewhat disappointed.  After all these years, and so much speculation about where Sansa is heading, it feels to me like she's still just doing what she's told.  Littlefinger has her well in hand - there isn't even a hint about her feeling resentful about another marriage.  I don't know - she will definitely be a social asset, but this chapter did nothing to reinforce her as coming into her own.  Sansa may forever remain a puppet and never become a player in the game.

 

It's probably her first chapter in this book, and when we last left her Littlefinger had to pretty much walk her through his plan.

 

I know it's been years since we had a Sansa chapter, but it in book time it was been not nearly that long.

 

You might be expecting a little much from her so early. She's not going to go from naive pawn to magnificent bastard in one chapter.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[InsertWordHere]

Littlefinger is such a hoarder. The Vale has both a large, well-rested army and an oversupply of food. Here's hoping both somehow make it to the Wall and a North that's held by Stark-loyalists. And throw in Sansa while we're at it. Mya needs to stay put though. I don't want her near Stannis and his fires. 

[Avaleigh]

I thougt the chapter was a lot of fun. I like that Sansa seems to feel safe and even comfortable. I also like that she hasn't forgotten.

I really liked the way she brought up Harry's bastards to his face. Also liked the line where she said that Petyr would laugh when she told him what she said.

Other small moments I liked include:

Her run with Myranda

The way she is unfailingly kind to Ser Wallace the Stammerer

The massive lemon cake that she knows was made for her

Her thought about Robb

The only thing that's hard to take is how much she likes Petyr and seems to appreciate having him in her life. I don't blame her it's just tough to see her think of him as this positive influence on her life when we all know what a slimy mofo he is.

[benteen]

I wasn't crazy about it but it was nice to read Sansa again.  Her character is becoming very good at snark. 

 

-I liked Ser Luthor telling Sansa that Harry was a royal arse.

 

-I also liked Sansa's memories of running through Winterfell with Jeyne, especially that Arya used to run after them.

Edited April 3, 2015 by benteen

[GreyBunny]

I enjoyed the chapter well enough, but I can't help but feel somewhat disappointed.  After all these years, and so much speculation about where Sansa is heading, it feels to me like she's still just doing what she's told.  Littlefinger has her well in hand - there isn't even a hint about her feeling resentful about another marriage.  I don't know - she will definitely be a social asset, but this chapter did nothing to reinforce her as coming into her own.  Sansa may forever remain a puppet and never become a player in the game.

 

She is doing what she's told but she does it well.  She's beginning to blossom into a crafty bugger in her own right.  As noted already, it's a shame she didn't get lessons like this (minus the creepy kissing) when she was still at Winterfell.  Despite her cold impression of Harry (and rightfully so, he IS an arse), Tyrion is still alive somewhere and her identity is still hidden so any marriage between her and Harry could probably be nullified when the time comes, and might not even happen at all.  I don't think she's too worried.

 

Also, I like that SweetRobin knows Harry is pretending to like him.  Granted it probably comes from a place of jealousy regarding Sansa but it shows some awareness on his part.  He's more than just a sickly rube, even if just barely.  

 

Oh, and he's totally Littlefinger's biological son.  Harry, who has Jon Arryn's look, has sandy brown hair.  Lysa was a redhead.  Robin has brown hair.  Even with Westeros's wonky genetics it doesn't seem likely someone with sandy hair and a redhead could produce a child with brown hair.

 

Littlefinger, the opportunist that he is, is taking advantage of the upcoming food shortage to hoard food supplies and use it for his own political ends.  I expect nothing less from him.

 

The tapestries again.  Looks like Petyr wants people to think he has the strength of the Iron Throne behind him and they'd better think twice before trying to depose him.

Edited April 4, 2015 by GreyBunny

[Maximum Taco]

Also, I like that SweetRobin knows Harry is pretending to like him.  Granted it probably comes from a place of jealousy regarding Sansa but it shows some awareness on his part.  He's more than just a sickly rube, even if just barely.  

 

Giving a lot of credit to Sweetrobin there.

 

I just assumed Lysa poisoned her son against Harry. Just like she terrified him of the outside world. I don't think Lysa wanted Sweetrobin to like anyone outside of her (and maybe her most loyal supporters like Vardis Egen), and Baelish. She definitely didn't want him all chummy with the kid who wasn't hers who was set to inherit the Eyrie, and looks and acts much more the lordling then poor Sweetrobin.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Advance35]

She is doing what she's told but she does it well.  She's beginning to blossom into a crafty bugger in her own right.  As noted already, it's a shame she didn't get lessons like this (minus the creepy kissing) when she was still at Winterfell.  Despite her cold impression of Harry (and rightfully so, he IS an arse), Tyrion is still alive somewhere and her identity is still hidden so any marriage between her and Harry could probably be nullified when the time comes, and might not even happen at all.  I don't think she's too worried.

 

 

 

I think Sansa is doing a good job in the sense that she's doing her part to make sure her current faction thrives.   Current Faction being LF and herself for the moment.   She's unaware that LF is ultimately an enemy, as far as she is concerned LF and her have the same goal, keeping her alive and making it so the Lannisters are no threat.   Tywin and Tyrion were the crafty one's in terms of House Lannister, Olenna seems to be the brains of House Tyrell, and LF hatches the ideas and Sansa (keeping in mind the end goal) does what she can to help them along.   She's further along than any other Stark in the story.

 

Though a question.   Sansa was forced to marry Tyrion in the Great Sept of Baelor, The Seven, don't the Northerners have a different religion all together?   Could she marry someone else in front of a Heart Tree?   

 

Though I doubt it would be Harry because I'm under the impression The Vale leans more towards the South in terms of religion.

[InsertWordHere]

Though I doubt it would be Harry because I'm under the impression The Vale leans more towards the South in terms of religion.

I agree. The Arryns are considered the oldest and purest Andal bloodline, so they're pretty much quintessential followers of The Seven. I don't think Arryn supporters would accept that house's last heir (assuming Sweetrobin is toast) marrying in front of the trees. The Royces, OTOH, are supposedly blood of the First Men, just like the Starks. Maybe they would accept a Heart Tree marriage, if a suitable groom is found.

[Avaleigh]

I'm calling it now--Harry isn't going to be so good looking after the tourney.

Those perfectly straight, white teeth? I'll be shocked if nothing happens to him in terms of appearance. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that Littlefinger might even arrange for it to happen.

[yellowfred]

Though a question.   Sansa was forced to marry Tyrion in the Great Sept of Baelor, The Seven, don't the Northerners have a different religion all together?   Could she marry someone else in front of a Heart Tree?   

 

Though I doubt it would be Harry because I'm under the impression The Vale leans more towards the South in terms of religion.

 

I've always gotten the impression that people get married under whatever religion or religions they follow and it's more or less recognized by everyone.  Like, from what we've seen, Northerners who only follow the old gods don't seem to consider people less married if they only did it in a Sept and not also in a Godswood. 

 

From what I can tell, Littlefinger (and Sansa, by extension) is expecting some confirmation of Tyrion's death to come before the actual wedding takes place.  I could see that putting them in a bit of a tough position, since I don't think they'll be getting that confirmation anytime soon, and they won't really have any excuse to push back the wedding without telling everyone who she is. 

[WearyTraveler]

I'm rusty on Westerosi law, but is it possible to annul a marriage if it wasn't consummated?

 

Also, I enjoyed the Sansa chapter but I don't get why it's supposed to be controversial. 

[Maximum Taco]

I'm rusty on Westerosi law, but is it possible to annul a marriage if it wasn't consummated?

 

Also, I enjoyed the Sansa chapter but I don't get why it's supposed to be controversial. 

 

GRRM said in a Q&A that the High Septon can set aside a marriage done under the Faith of the Seven, that has not been comsummated, but one of the parties must request the annulment. There would obviously be considerable danger in Sansa making such a request with the Lannisters in control of King's Landing.

 

Not sure how it would be done for vows said under a Heart Tree. I assume the High Septon might be able to annul those too though. Maybe he'd require you to profess your changed faith?

 

The current High Septon/Sparrow might require proof of your claim as well. But since Sansa is a virgin, she might actually have that proof.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Featherhat]

GRRM said in a Q&A that the High Septon can set aside a marriage done under the Faith of the Seven, that has not been comsummated, but one of the parties must request the annulment......

 

The current High Septon/Sparrow might require proof of your claim as well. But since Sansa is a virgin, she might actually have that proof.

 

That's where Cersei's comment about horse riding comes in, bribing the Septas doing the ick investigation seems a surer route, and one that Sansa might grow into although it probably won't be an issue this book since she isn't Sansa marrying Harry. 

[Lady S.]

... was the controversy the absence of Sansan? Hilarious. I don't think I ever saw that suggested in all the speculation. After the Mercy chapter and the likelihood of Show Sansa/Ramsay, this is still incredibly mild stuff.

Yes, I think Elio was just baiting the shippers, who seem to make up the majority of the Sansa fans on w.org. He also had only read this chapter and didn't get a sneak peek at Mercy before Evil Santa released it. Still, it is kinda gross that Littlefinger is coaching her to be a seductress and when he told her how to entice Harry, I couldn't help but think of his instructions to Ros in the infamous s1 sexposition scene. Sansa's memory of Jeyne Poole made me wonder if she will actually find out something about Jeyne's "training". Or maybe the readers were being reminded of Jeyne lest anyone forget how truly awful Baelish is.

 

As far as whether there's a bigamy loophole through septon vs. heart tree, Sansa's own parents were married in the sept at Riverrun, not the godswood, which is why method of ceremony is the one criticism I don't get with Robb/Talisa.

[Holmbo]

To be fair I think the quote was something like "could be controversial to certain parts of the fandom" which is actually true. Certain types of fans might not like the Sansa development of this chapter. Only speculators got it to mean that he considered it controversial and that it must mean Sansa and LF has sex or something like that.

[Avaleigh]

I'm curious to know what people here think about the recent speculation that Sweetrobin is Petyr and Lysa's child after all. This is another one of those things where I don't really think that it'll necessarily add anything to the story but the knowledge that Jon Arryn was probably blonde gave me pause all the same considering what emphasis there is on hair color in these books. 

 

It probably doesn't mean anything but I'm curious to know what everybody else here thinks.

[Holmbo]

I agree that blond + red = brown seems pretty much confirmation of adultery in this series.

It's funny because before this I've never seen any book reader speculate about this but it's a fairly common thought among show only watchers. As soon as it was made clear that LF and Lysa had a history a lot of people decided that clearly Robin was his kid. It does make sense because LF was described as being small and sickly as a child I think (I'm not sure about the sickly part but I have some vague memory of that).

I agree that it doesn't seem like it would have any plot significance though. It doesn't seem to affect LF feeling for Robin. It does make him seem a bit more stupid. Why risk getting a bastard on Lysa who might look like him?

[WearyTraveler]

I agree that blond + red = brown seems pretty much confirmation of adultery in this series.

It's funny because before this I've never seen any book reader speculate about this but it's a fairly common thought among show only watchers. As soon as it was made clear that LF and Lysa had a history a lot of people decided that clearly Robin was his kid. It does make sense because LF was described as being small and sickly as a child I think (I'm not sure about the sickly part but I have some vague memory of that).

I agree that it doesn't seem like it would have any plot significance though. It doesn't seem to affect LF feeling for Robin. It does make him seem a bit more stupid. Why risk getting a bastard on Lysa who might look like him?

 

When reading the series I thought that was a possibility.  Just one more thing on the list of Littlefinger's plays.  As to why he would do it, even risking discovery, I think Littlefinger is playing the long game, so, he might have wanted to guarantee he had control of the Vale.  Offing Jon Arryn without an heir (or with an heir not under LF's control, such as Harry) would mean he'd lose the Vale, no matter how strong his hold on Lysa was.  The only reason they are able to stay at the Eyrie is because Robert is the "rightful" Lord of the Castle.  Had Jon Arryn died childless, Harry would have been declared The Lord of the Vale.  LF just could not have that.

Edited April 10, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[Holmbo]

Ah I see. Ensuring that Lysa had an heir. That makes sense.

[Lady S.]

I like the idea of Littlefinger joining the Worst Dads in Westeros club for plotting to poison his own son (and the idea that Jon Arryn uncovered Robert's cuckolding never knowing the same thing happened to him), but I don't think it really adds anything to the story either. And how would anyone know if Lysa herself didn't? She dies still babbling about her aborted first pregnancy, why confess to murdering Jon Arryn and not to cuckolding him with a living Baelish bastard? Maybe she was doing it with both at the same time and genuinely can't be sure, but I think she'd notice if Sweetrobin really resembled Petyr as a child. I don't think an affair when both were in King's Landing can be ruled out, but it's one of those things I think we'll probably never know, as Lysa and Jon Arryn are both dead, and Littlefinger doesn't give a crap about Sweetrobin. Who knows? Maybe he'll villain monologue to Sansa about how Sweetrobin looks so much like him but is no fit lord of the Vale, but that's the only way I can see it coming up in the story.

[WearyTraveler]

I may not be remembering correctly because I haven't read the passage for a long time, but I think Lysa implies she and Petyr were having sex in KL when she meets LF and Sansa at The Fingers.

[Lady S.]

She says what she does on the show about screaming during sex because they finally don't have to hide their love, with a mention of "all these years of silence and whisperings", which could mean they'd had quiet sex in King's Landing or they'd just been whispering of being together some day. 

Edited April 10, 2015 by Lady S.

[Constantinople]

There's only one way to be sure about Robin's parentage...toss him out the Moon Door.

That should no more kill a falcon than fire should kill a dragon.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s62KngW84rU

 

Of course, mockingbirds should be able to fly too.

 

Damn.

[sunnyface]

My biggest fear is that GRRM

 

Obviously, GRRM no longer values his books above fame.  My biggest fear is that Brandon Sanderson will have to finish up the series like he did for Robert Jordan's series - Wheel of Time.  Brandon will produce a better product than GRRM at this point but it will mean a delay in his epic series - Stormlight Archive.  Although it woud be pretty awesome for Neal Stephenson and Joe Abercrombie to partner and give this series a fitting end.

[Maximum Taco]

Obviously, GRRM no longer values his books above fame.  My biggest fear is that Brandon Sanderson will have to finish up the series like he did for Robert Jordan's series - Wheel of Time.  Brandon will produce a better product than GRRM at this point but it will mean a delay in his epic series - Stormlight Archive.  Although it woud be pretty awesome for Neal Stephenson and Joe Abercrombie to partner and give this series a fitting end.

 

GRRM has already said if he dies the books die with him.

 

Not sure if that was just him being pissed off because everyone was asking him to hurry the hell up and bringing up Jordan's recent death as he reason he should hurry the hell up. But if you follow his blog (yeah I don't care what he says, it's a friggin blog) he's very against other people writing his characters. Before the HBO show debuted he actually had his staff go around to fanfiction sites around the internet and ask the writers (read: teenagers) to cease and desist.

 

I don't think he'd ask Sanderson (or anyone) to finish his books. Personally my biggest fear is the books never get finished cause he's so protective of his characters. Atleast we'll get the TV ending though.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Maximum Taco