The Winds Of Winter: Book 6 Will Arrive...Someday

[Mormegil]

 and there was that one dude who was like a conjoined twin or something and still had the head attached to his body somehow? Something crazy, I can't recall, I'm wondering if this is something mentioned in a Dunk and Egg novella (I haven't read those yet) and I just came upon it via one of the wiki pages.

 

 

Maelys the Monstrous.

 

 

Last of the Blackfyre's, killed by Ser Barristan Selmy in the War of the Ninepenny Kings.

 

 

Any mention of him is from the main novels as the currently published D+E stories are set some years before Maelys would have been born.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Mormegil

[benteen]

Interestingly, the upcoming World of Ice and Fire books reveals that The War of Ninepenny Kings came after Egg's reign as king.

[Lady S.]

Well, compare GRRM with Tolkien for a minute. They're kind of different. Look at what's happened so far.

 

Who are Merry and Pippin in this story? I'll buy Sam & Gilly for Sam & Rosie, and Frodo corresponding with Jon Snow. But who would you say corresponds to Galadriel? Melisandre?  Or who is Aragorn? Stannis? Jon? Dany? Or Arwen? Who is Gandalf and who is Sauron? There's not really a good/evil paradigm here, and so the ending can't be about good triumphing over evil. Jon Snow will not be getting on a boat to West of the Fields, leaving behind him a new, vigorous king, beautiful former elf queen, and green, peaceful land. That's just not how GRRM writes.

 

It would be just like him to randomly and meaninglessly kill everyone, and for the final chapter to be, as he's joked, just snow blowing over a bunch of graves.

 

Please. It's not a battle between supernatural good and evil but it is a struggle between human good and evil. Characters who are mostly good like Samwell Tarly and Brienne of Tarth are set up to root for, Gregor Clegane and Ramsay Snow are meant to meant to someday suffer comeuppance. No one major in the story has really been killed meaninglessly so far. Over the top horrifically? Sure, of course. Random and devoid of any meaning? Can't think of any. The D&E novellas make it abundantly clear that the notions of honor and true knighthood aren't just reasons to laugh at the Starks, though they are seriously deconstructed and not meant to be absolutes. From every interview I've seen of the man, I get the impression that GRRM is more of a jaded romantic and realist frustrated with fantasy that's too black-and-white than outright cynic and nihilist, not unlike the worldview of Jaime Lannister.

 

Apart from devout followers of the Faith I doubt that many people really cared about the Targaryen incestuous marriages. Cousin marriage seems to be all over the place too at least I can think of examples from the Targaryens, Lannisters, Arryns, and Starks.

As far as skipping the incest every generation or so I never really got the impression that any of the non-Targ marriages happened for the specific reason of introducing some new blood into the mix. They're convinced that their super special blood is all that and then some it's hard for me to imagine a conversation where they're admitting that it would be better long term for their House if they widen the gene pool.

I also feel like in this world incest doesn't appear to have the same biological drawbacks that it has in our world. Sure, the Targaryens have madness and there was that one dude who was like a conjoined twin or something and still had the head attached to his body somehow? Something crazy, I can't recall, I'm wondering if this is something mentioned in a Dunk and Egg novella (I haven't read those yet) and I just came upon it via one of the wiki pages.

Cousin marriage is really not the same as sibling or aunt/nephew and uncle/niece marriages, though. First cousin marriage is still legal in some states in the US and other first world countries. The cousin marriages in ASOIAF don't seem that different to me than the real examples in medieval Europe, but the royal inbreeding didn't usually include closer blood relations. One of the things that struck me in the D&E novellas is a part where Dunk gets weirded by Egg discussing his sisters both wanting to marry him, so it's not like sibling marriage is taken the same as cousin marriage in the general population, religiously devout or not. But then the main novels have Arrianne fantasizing about Oberyn and Victarion thinking Asha wanted to marry him when she suggested helping him rule, and the aforementioned Stark example from 100+ years ago, so who knows how icky uncle/niece and aunt/nephew relations would be considered, since I think that is slightly less shared blood than half-siblings.

 

The two newest Targ prequels, about the Dance of the Dragons, both mentioned deformed babies not surviving birth, so I'm starting to wonder if Maelys the Monstrous was only unique in living to adulthood. Could be dying deformed babies crop up along with the mental instability.  My understanding is these things take several generations to really show in our world, though. Cersei and Jaime's kids only had one generation of twincest and one of regular cousin marriage in their blood, so it's not surprising that no physical abnormalities showed up there. It's more remarkable with Gilly and her baby, since she was young enough that I'm sure she's Craster's granddaughter and likely also great-granddaughter as well as his daughter, and Craster's first wife could have been his own mother, since we don't know that he ever went outside his family. But then we really don't get much book description of what the rest of Craster's brood all look like, I don't think Jon and Sam ever got a good look at all of them.

[Avaleigh]

Just to be clear, I wasn't equating cousin marriages to sibling or potential aunt/nephew or uncle/niece unions, I was just saying that the Great Houses and a couple of others have looked into their own families for suitable matches before so it might not be all that difficult for people to swallow since there are many people who are going to see having the Targaryen blood as making all the difference. Paxter Redwyne is another character who is married to a cousin.

I too thought about the conversation where Victarion thought Asha would suggest a marriage with him. I didn't get the impression that either thought it was the most farfetched thing just something neither was really interested in especially since both felt there to be alternatives.

I wonder how Oberyn would have felt if he'd known that his rebellious niece was secretly attracted to him. IIRC Arianne was disturbed by whatever thoughts she entertained about Oberyn.

Tyrion for his part barely seemed to blink at the idea of Aegon and Dany eventually being together. Alys Karstark ran to the Wall so that she wouldn't be forced to marry her uncle. Sure, she didn't want to marry him but the idea was still put on the table in the first place, so that makes me think these types of unions aren't crazy out of the ordinary it just depends on the circumstances.

I just don't think Jon/Dany would be off of the table for most people and for Jon specifically I don't see him freaking out as they have no familial bond to speak of unlike with say, Arya which truly would be a squicky pairing IMO.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Avaleigh

[Premislaus]

My understanding is these things take several generations to really show in our world, though. Cersei and Jaime's kids only had one generation of twincest and one of regular cousin marriage in their blood, so it's not surprising that no physical abnormalities showed up there. It's more remarkable with Gilly and her baby, since she was young enough that I'm sure she's Craster's granddaughter and likely also great-granddaughter as well as his daughter, and Craster's first wife could have been his own mother, since we don't know that he ever went outside his family. But then we really don't get much book description of what the rest of Craster's brood all look like, I don't think Jon and Sam ever got a good look at all of them.

 

My understanding (i.e. things I read on the interent) is that incest doesn't necessarily result in deformities, it just makes certain things more likely to appear because of having two different versions of a gene you only get one. 

[Attaboy000]

IMO, GRRM is most likely to reveal Jon's parentage to a small group of characters so that it's important to the readers but doesn't affect the fight for the throne (another spin on a fantasy trope: secret heir, no one knows/cares), but I would absolutely love the WTF reactions of the big players to the way that Ned managed to hide a bomb like that with no one having any idea.

 

I'm almost expecting it to not be revealed at all. Although it kind of makes no sense to create all that mystery around it just to never address it, or have any significance to the plot, I will not be surprised one bit if Jon never finds out about his parentage.

[ElizaD]

I'm almost expecting it to not be revealed at all. Although it kind of makes no sense to create all that mystery around it just to never address it, or have any significance to the plot, I will not be surprised one bit if Jon never finds out about his parentage.

Pre-GOT, GRRM answered a fan question about whether Jon will find out more about his parents with "eventually" - it's been brought up as another reason why Jon's story can't be over yet.

[PeteMartell]

Am I the only one who hopes that neither Dany or Jon survive to the end of the series? I find the prophecies, the dragons, and the Targs to be some of the weakest, most cliche aspects of the books.

 

I don't have all that much interest in Jon's ties to the Targaryens, but I want him to live because he's one of the only characters left who still has a Stark identity, and because for all the talk of how boring or annoying he is, I think they need one generally decent male character in a major role. I know the idea to many is that Tyrion is a sweetheart and the main hero, but I just don't see him that way.

Edited July 6, 2014 by PeteMartell

[Anne Elk]

Am I the only one who hopes that neither Dany or Jon survive to the end of the series? I find the prophecies, the dragons, and the Targs to be some of the weakest, most cliche aspects of the books.

No, definitely not.

 

One of the reasons I object to the magical aspects of the story is that they make the rest of it irrelevant. I will be really pissed if I read 5,000 pages about these people and their backstories, ancestors, marriages and betrayals, and then the dragons and zombies come along and it's game over for the humans. Why did I waste my time then? Even if a few of the chosen characters survive, it would still feel like a copout to me.

 

And the prophecies are just so clichéd. I'd be happier watching even an S.O.B. like Littlefinger kill all the approved heirs and take the throne -- at least he actually did something to get it other than just be born to the right people at the right time.

[Winnief]

From Winter is Coming...

 

http://winteriscoming.net/2014/07/09/george-r-r-martin-strong-message-think-wont-finish-song-ice-fire/

 

I have to say this does NOT reassure me to the prospects that we will EVER get the series finished.  It rather feels like Martin reacting in a defensive and childish manner to people calling him more and more on his BS-and to the increasingly obvious fact that the show's about to outstrip the books and in fact might well be the only way we ever know how the story's supposed to wrap up.

[patchwork]

It's fair enough that he knows his own habits as a writer but the show's popularity has nothing to do with him, just because he gets asked to do this interview or go to that con doesn't mean he has to do them. 

 

How about instead of getting wound up that people are daring to wonder if he'll finish the series he sits his backside down and proves them wrong? Finish the books, make them 100% better than the TV show and give us a satisfying conclusion to the stuff the show has and will skip over.    

[Pete Martell]

I can understand why a writer would be hurt by constant claims that he will die before he finishes the books. I think on some level he feels like he's earned this fun and people are spoiling his fun. Unfortunately I think reactions like the one he had do a disservice to the people who just want the books to have a proper conclusion, and aren't going on about how he will be dead soon so finish the work.

[Winnief]

Thing is that interviewer didn't even bring up Martin dying before he could finish the series-Martin brought it up.  (Presumably because other people have been asking.)  And actually authors dying before they can finish a series is something that's happened before; aka Robert Jordan.  Of course Robert Jordan, took measures to ensure his work would be completed after he was gone by Brandon Samuelson.  Martin on the other hand, won't even entertain the notion of someone else completing ASOIAF.  And if the series goes to eight books, as he and his editor are now suggesting it might then at his current writing pace its going to take at least another decade for him to finish.  Martin would be in his late seventies. I get he doesn't like the speculation but surely he has to understand why people are so worried.  Not just about how slow a writer he is mind you but the pacing of the last two books as well is pretty foreboding-especially since his recent comments about Dany in TWOW suggest she still won't be getting to Westeros anytime soon.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Winnief

[benteen]

I can understand him getting upset about people wondering if he's going to die.  I've never been comfortable with that myself.

 

Reading this article though, it makes me less and less certain that he'll ever finish the series.  He talks about his pace slowing, saying "some of that might be old age."  I'm sure that's true but I've gotten the feeling more and more that his drive for writing the next two (or three) books has gotten less and less.  Maybe I'm wrong in that assumption as the books get longer and longer.  But the stuff he's writing just seems to delay the story.  Ill-received detours in Dorne and the Iron Islands, wasting so many chapters with a doomed, useless character like Quentyn, absolutely REVELING in world-building, and now hearing that Dany will likely be spending a LOT of time dancing with Dothraki (I'm not surprised by their return, Dany still has business with that one Khal).

 

I wouldn't mind eight books if there was an announcement stating that Books 7 and 8 would be released 6-12 months apart.  That I could totally get behind.  But if this series takes another book, that will mean at least another 4-6 years before this story gets done.

 

I think part of the reason for the slowdown in recent times is that he's enjoying his recent celebrity and the opportunities it's presenting.  I totally get that, he should be enjoying it.  GRRM established himself as a writer long ago but his big-time celebrity status only came about recently.  Put it this way...he's did a bunch of interviews after the Red Wedding episode last year, 13 years AFTER he initially wrote it.  He didn't get any of the coverage for The Red Wedding then as he did now.  It's a big change and one I think he enjoys.  He definitely should enjoy it.

 

But I think it's caused his writing pace to slow down even more and I wonder if a) he's more interested in that and his various trips and b) he's using it as a away to avoid more writing, which by his own admission he has slowed down on.

Edited July 10, 2014 by benteen

[clack]

Some of GRRM's readers are the most *snip* that any writer has ever had as "fans" -- so yeah, flipping them off was appropriate.

 

How many hundreds of times a year does GRRM have to hear or read that he's old, he's fat, he's going to die any minute now, how dare he do anything but sit at his desk and write, but write better because your last 2 books sucked? 

Edited July 15, 2014 by SilverStormm
Edited inappropriate content.

[Winnief]

 

'm sure that's true but I've gotten the feeling more and more that his drive for writing the next two (or three) books has gotten less and less.  Maybe I'm wrong in that assumption as the books get longer and longer.  But the stuff he's writing just seems to delay the story.  Ill-received detours in Dorne and the Iron Island, wasting so many chapters with a doomed, useless character like Quentyn, and now hearing that Dany will likely be spending a LOT of time dancing with Dothraki (I'm not surprised by their return, Dany still has business with that one Khal).

That's my biggest issue too; we didn't get much forward momentum in the last two books and it sounds like TWOW might continue that unfortunate trend.  I get that he likes the world-building and he's really, really good at it, but this series started out as a highly plot driven one.  After twenty years we STILL don't know what happened to Benjen Stark, Jon's ancestry hasn't been revealed and Dany hasn't made it to Westeros.  

 

 

 

Some of GRRM's readers are the most *snip* that any writer has ever had as "fans" -- so yeah, flipping them off was appropriate.

How many hundreds of times a year does GRRM have to hear or read that he's old, he's fat, he's going to die any minute now, how dare he do anything but sit at his desk and write, but write better because your last 2 books sucked?

 

Martin's fans have also made him internationally famous as well as millions of dollars.  He likes being a Celebrity Author and that's entirely understandable-even justifiable, but he should remember who made him that in the first place.  

[Minneapple]

I'm guessing we'll see Book Six but that A Dream of Spring will be penned by a ghostwriter. On the one hand, he's a creator and should have proper leeway for his creative process. On the other hand...you're writing for an audience. An audience that has waited many years for your work. And if you stick your head in the sand about how the show is going to ruin the ending of your books, well, I got no sympathy for you.

 

 

 

Put it this way...he's did a bunch of interviews after the Red Wedding episode last year, 13 years AFTER he initially wrote it.  He didn't get any of the coverage for The Red Wedding then as he did now.  It's a big change and one I think he enjoys.  He definitely should enjoy it.

 

Well, when (if) Winds of Winter does ever hit the shelves, it would be a Harry Potter-level event. In some ways delaying the book has made people more and more eager to read it. That coupled with the show will make it a huge event for bookstores. So he'll get his publicity.

 

(I'm already imagining the Unsullied freaking out at trying to avoid spoilers. "ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY HAD A HEADLINE SAYING JON SNOW HAS BEEN RESURRECTED, WTH." Er, that's assuming we get Winds of Winter before that stuff actually happens on the show.)

Edited July 10, 2014 by Minneapple

[Hecate7]

I can understand why a writer would be hurt by constant claims that he will die before he finishes the books. I think on some level he feels like he's earned this fun and people are spoiling his fun. Unfortunately I think reactions like the one he had do a disservice to the people who just want the books to have a proper conclusion, and aren't going on about how he will be dead soon so finish the work.

 

I'm trying to apply this logic to any other profession on earth. Let's try it with wedding photography. Nope. Doesn't work. Pizza delivery? Restaurant work? Acting? Art? Auto repair? Insurance sales? Advertising? Journalism? Writing for a weekly sitcom? Real estate? Nope. There is NO profession in which you are allowed to simply shrug off your target market or audience, and no other work in which deadlines are irrelevant. Try applying GRRM's attitude at YOUR job. Tell a customer to f off, flip them off for asking how much longer it will be before their appointment, or before their order is ready. Refuse to finish copy editing or writing reports or whatever your job is, until you FEEL like it. If someone complains, tell them they have no right to tell you how to live your life. See how long you keep your job. GRRM has found the one and only profession in which you can take the attitude he does. Were he an actress, a pop singer, or a fashion designer he'd be racing the clock, desperately trying to earn his millions before the fad for his style passed or his looks went.

 

Imagine if the show runners just took a break for a few years, until they felt like filming again, while everyone aged out of their roles and audiences got hooked on some other story.  I doubt GRRM would be all mellow, or go around preaching that D&D are not our bitches.

 

It's not at all like "Misery." If we weren't reading his books, there would be no show. If the show weren't tremendously popular, there would be no large checks coming to GRRM through these stories at all. He would be like most other writers, writing away and having to work other jobs to support his writing habit. Now, if he doesn't want to write the books, if he resents his audience for wanting more, if he wants to tell people to F off because they hope the next book comes out before he dies or they themselves do, he might eventually find himself playing to empty houses. They're his books and if he doesn't want to finish them, that's unfortunate. But there are other books out there, and other shows. Nobody is going to chain him to a desk or tie him down and make him finish. They'll just move on to the next big thing.

 

I wish I had GRRM's problems. I can vaguely relate to his irritation---when someone orders a piece of art from me, sometimes I would rather play on the computer or just hang out, or do almost anything besides draw that freaking picture. And then I'm devastated if they decide to buy someone else's art instead, but that is in fact what happens if people can't get what they want from you. They will either figure out a way to get it elsewhere, or they will figure out a way to quit wanting it.

 

As for being hurt by people speculating whether he'll live long enough to finish, I don't think anyone is trying to hurt him. He's the one who first brought it up.  A more pressing concern is whether THEY themselves will live long enough to enjoy the ending. My mother died waiting for the 7th Harry Potter book, but at least JK TRIED to keep her story flowing, keep her audience engaged and continue it at regular intervals.

 

It's GRRM himself who planted the idea that he might not finish, by going around saying that after his death no one is allowed to finish writing the books, period. If you're going to say stuff like "if I die first," and then also say that old age is slowing you down and is one reason you're not writing, you can't be too surprised if people react by assuming you do not intend to finish your story before you die.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Hecate7

[Winnief]

 

It's GRRM himself who planted the idea that he might not finish, by going around saying that after his death no one is allowed to finish writing the books, period. If you're going to say stuff like "if I die first," and then also say that old age is slowing you down and is one reason you're not writing, you can't be too surprised if people react by assuming you do not intend to finish your story before you die.

 

Cheers to that!  And to your entire post really.  

 

 

(I'm already imagining the Unsullied freaking out at trying to avoid spoilers. "ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY HAD A HEADLINE SAYING JON SNOW HAS BEEN RESURRECTED, WTH." Er, that's assuming we get Winds of Winter before that stuff actually happens on the show.)

 

While that is still theoretically possible, it's looking increasingly unlikely.  I'd love nothing more though, than to be proven wrong.

 

See that's the thing George-if you really want people to shut up about all this the surest way is to get the damn books out.   Then all those naysayers will have to eat crow and you can bask in your victory.  A speedy release for TWOW alone would do wonders to settling down the unruly; conversely the longer the wait the worse the rumbling gets.

[clack]

 

I'm trying to apply this logic to any other profession on earth. Let's try it with wedding photography. Nope. Doesn't work. Pizza delivery? Restaurant work? Acting? Art? Auto repair? Insurance sales? Advertising? Journalism? Writing for a weekly sitcom? Real estate? Nope. There is NO profession in which you are allowed to simply shrug off your target market or audience, and no other work in which deadlines are irrelevant.

Thank you for making explicit some of the premises underlying the resentment heaped up against GRRM. To some, a freelance novelist is the equivalent of a pizza delivery boy, and as they don't wait for pizza they aren't going to wait for a novel, dammit. As for your acting example, Marlon Brando took as long as 9 years between movies, Robert Redford 4, Warren Beatty 7. Journalism? Gay Talese is a journalist who routinely takes 10 years or more on his projects. Art? Marcel Duchamp worked 8 years on 'The Large Glass'. 

 

Now, as to "target market or audience". Let's imagine an ASOIAF reader who has purchased the books. 5 books, say $20 each. That's $100. This one individual reader has not by herself made GRRM an international celebrity, or made him millions, or indeed conducted a poll to determine how many fellow ASOIAF readers agree with her regarding GRRM taking time out of writing by going on press junkets, say. This imagined reader is one person with an opinion, and does not constitute a "target market". For all she knows, the vast majority of ASOIAF readers are happy to let GRRM take as long as he needs in order to make TWOW as good as he wants it to be.

[Skeeter22]

I would feel more sympathetic to GRRM if he hadn't spent much of the Spring whining about the show passing him and suggesting they go on hiatus or do a prequel season to buy him time to catch up. Jeopardizing the jobs of hundreds of people is apparently more desirable than the show spoiling the book series, an outcome that was completely avoidable. That's far more entitled than the most obnoxious of his fans.

 

It's unquestionably tacky to whine about GRRM dying, but I don't think there's anything wrong with pointing out how little he's delivered for the last several years. He's the one who set timetables in writing, then took years to deliver. He has no one to blame but himself for making promises he apparently couldn't keep. It's his own fault that his fan base expected Dance to follow Feast shortly. The fact that the famous Merenese Knot seemed to be nothing but an exercise in stalled storytelling and he had to shift the climaxes of both major storylines to the next book, which may never come, is also something fans have every right to complain about.

 

I don't really care at this point if GRRM finishes the series. We'll have an ending thanks to the show, so GRRM actually writing the books will just be icing on the cake. I don't subscribe to the idea that creators of long-running series don't owe their audience anything. Vince Gilligan made a comment that the ending of a series that has gone on for years should be for the fans who devoted their time and effort to the story, and I think he has a point. A series is a work-in-progress. Once you've put it out there, I think you've committed yourself to seeing it through, otherwise why publish something unfinished? Life can get in the way, like Robert Jordan's untimely illness, and I would expect readers to be compassionate, but the idea that a writer owes his readers absolutely nothing is going a little too far.

[mac123x]

I hate to play armchair psychologist (no wait, I actually love to do it), but reading stuff like:

 

1.  Rude responses to fans' genuine concern that he'll ever finish the series (either because of lack of interest or Author Existence Failure)

2.  The "Meereenize Knot" causing a lot of delay for Dany's story

3.  The bloat in the last two books with side issues and shaggy dog stories (Dorne, Ironborn, QUENTIN)

4.  Inability to meet schedule

5.  Doing other side projects like writing episodes for the show or developing that World of Ice and Fire book

 

I can't help but wonder if these are signs that he's procrastinating because he doesn't know where to go from here.  I believe he has a broad outline and an end-point in mind since he's allegedly shared those with the show runners, but "how do I get there from here?" seems to be an issue.

 

I'm kind of torn.  On the one hand, I don't want him writing to meet a deadline and churning out drivel in the process, but on the other hand I'd appreciate some sign that he's making progress.  I guess the sneak-peek chapters of TWOW are supposed to be that.

 

I just want to see the final novels before the sun burns out.

[ElizaD]

GRRM has found the one and only profession in which you can take the attitude he does.

 

When he started ASOIAF, he also chose to write fiction that's serialized and heading for a definite ending; not, say, something like the cases of Detective X where you can ignore the series for ten years and then start again with the latest book without having missed anything essential, or standalone novels. That's the kind of thing that creates the greatest fan investment, both positive = people will buy your books and merchandise even if they grumble sometimes, and negative = they get frustrated if they feel they aren't getting anything in return for their commitment.

See that's the thing George-if you really want people to shut up about all this the surest way is to get the damn books out.   Then all those naysayers will have to eat crow and you can bask in your victory.  A speedy release for TWOW alone would do wonders to settling down the unruly; conversely the longer the wait the worse the rumbling gets.

 

Yeah, I really wish he'd get angry in the "success is the best revenge" way and prove that pessimists like me were wrong when we said he couldn't finish TWOW before 2016.

I can't help but wonder if these are signs that he's procrastinating because he doesn't know where to go from here.  I believe he has a broad outline and an end-point in mind since he's allegedly shared those with the show runners, but "how do I get there from here?" seems to be an issue.

 

I'm kind of torn.  On the one hand, I don't want him writing to meet a deadline and churning out drivel in the process, but on the other hand I'd appreciate some sign that he's making progress.  I guess the sneak-peek chapters of TWOW are supposed to be that.

 

I think that GRRM likes writing the historical/worldbuilding stuff now because it's easier: he doesn't need to sort out all the details of the first Dance, he can skip a lot of stuff, have fun with the good moments he comes up with and he can write an ending that's OK because it's not meant to be epic or accurately reported. But when he tried skipping after ASOS, he had to abandon a lot of material because the five-year gap didn't work. And that's still causing problems (did he solve the Meereenese Knot or just delay it? Only Quentyn met Dany, Tyrion and Victarion are still on their way to sharing pagetime with her).

 

IMO, ADWD is proof that slower doesn't necessarily mean better. If he hadn't been rushed because of season 1, who knows how many more turtles and Essosi cities there would have been in the book. When you have a deadline and an editor with the power to say no, it means you have to focus.

[Avaleigh]

I can understand being chilled by the cold attitude of 'give me what I want from you before you die because you're so obviously going to go relatively soon given factors x, y, and z.' I agree that it's a tasteless attitude but it's not an attitude that I feel has been expressed here.

My main problem with GRRM is that I don't feel like he takes responsibility for the role he played in developing a fair amount of frustration for the fans who* have* waited patiently for the books. I feel especially sympathetic to those who have been into the stories since the 90s. I only first read the series back in 2009 so I only had a two year wait for ADWD. When I first started discussing the series online (at IMDB of all places only back in '09/'10 when there really was a surprising amount of intelligent conversation--no, there really was) I didn't really understand why certain fans seemed to be so impatient. But then I read about the promises for AFFC and ADWD and I felt like I could better understand the frustrations that certain fans have especially when I throw GRRM's unhelpful attitude into the equation.

I consistently get the vibe of a guy who is saying "Don't question me! Why must people question me?!" Whether he's ignoring his editor or his fans, or D&D, I feel like he thinks people should increasingly wallow in denial as he's doing when it comes to shit like the show moving past the books. He seems like he has absolutely no qualms about disappointing the people who would actually be willing to stop watching the series and still wait for him to finish whenever he finishes. I fully admit to not being one of those fans, but there's still something irritating to me about him not even caring about the fans who would be willing to do it his way even if it were to mean missing out on the show in real time and all the discussion that would come with it. It ultimately feels like a lack of respect for the people who have enjoyed his work enough to spend time and money on it.

I also think GRRM needs to get real if he seriously thinks his readers don't deserve a conclusion within a reasonable time frame. No one is asking him to be a wizard. Readers aren't asking for the impossible. People just want a conclusion to a story he started more than twenty years ago. He even had a head start on TWoW because of the material that was cut from ADWD. He agreed to the show, he knew the writing was on the wall years ago about all of this but woe betide the fan who actually suggests that maybe he should try to be a bit more disciplined.

I completely understand the man wanting to enjoy his success. IMO though he can only coast on the success for so long before he'll need to remind people that he still has it in him to finish the story in an exciting and satisfactory way. I feel like he thinks he's paid all of his dues and should just be able to coast and continue enjoying his success without also fulfilling the promises that he's made to his readership in terms of completing the books. As the reader, I'm not the one who told him to go around promising that he would finish the story in 3, 7 or however many books. That's on him.

The continuous delays make me inclined to agree with those who think it's a combination of not knowing how to end the story, the lacklustre reception of the last two books, and maybe even some level of not wanting it to be over. Whatever it is that's going on I feel like it's a lot more than GRRM being overwhelmed with too many other projects. (Not that the side projects are helping just that I don't think they're the primary cause for the delay.) IMO it comes down to priorities and I don't think ASOIAF is a top priority for him. And just so I'm clear, I'm not saying it should be *the* top priority just that since writing is his career that it should at least be a priority and I'm not sure it feels like that so much as an obligation that's getting in the way of his good time.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Avaleigh

[Winnief]

 

he idea that a writer owes his readers absolutely nothing is going a little too far.

 

He certainly owes his publisher something; they gave him a big juicy advance.  What pages he's completed so far were basically contractually required of him.

 

 

I can't help but wonder if these are signs that he's procrastinating because he doesn't know where to go from here.  I believe he has a broad outline and an end-point in mind since he's allegedly shared those with the show runners, but "how do I get there from here?" seems to be an issue.

 

Yeah, I mean why else have Dany go off on ANOTHER tangent in TWOW instead of having her meet Tyrion and take the fleet to Westeros?!?  I really do worry, that he put in so many subplots and prophecies that now he's having a hard time tying them all up.   Like Dany has to slay the Mummers Dragon AND the Kraken but he doesn't know he's going to do that.  Or what to do with the White Walkers-if they stay behind the Wall indefinitely it's anti climactic and frustrating but if they march South all bets are off with how it affects the Game in the Seven Kingdoms.  He knows the ending he wants but the particulars are a problem for him.  

 

 

I consistently get the vibe of a guy who is saying "Don't question me! Why must people question me?!"

 

 

I completely understand the man wanting to enjoy his success. IMO though he can only coast on the success for so long before he'll need to remind people that he still has it in him to finish the story in an exciting and satisfactory way. I feel like he thinks he's paid all of his dues and should just be able to coast and continue enjoying his success without also fulfilling the promises that he's made to his readership in terms of completing the books.

 

Bingo.  He also seems lately rather resentful that D&D aren't waiting on him, but are planning to finish it in seven seasons.  Perhaps not just because they're finishing ahead of him, but because they know how to finish it.  They haven't hemmed themselves in like he has and can afford to be a lot more ruthless about cutting out chaff.  

[polyhymnia]

Other people have said much the same but I think he isn't really sure how to bring it home, so he just delays.  I am pretty lukewarm about the quality of his writing, so am not usually all up in arms about it either way but it is very frustrating to read series that are in progress and have to wait and wait.  On the other hand, I really did not like Feast of Crows or ADWD on first reading but liked the first better on re-read (probably because I skipped all of the ironborn crap, which made the Dorne story a little more tolerable) and actually like reading Brienne's tortured journey all over the map.  I don't think he owes anyone anything, but I understand the frustration.

 

I think he has an aversion to finishing it.  I think there is a great story in there, somewhere, and sometimes he hits on it and sometimes the show hits on it.

[benteen]

I think GRRM was surprised when he realized that unlike his publisher and editor, HBO wasn't going to placate his need for time.  When he started floating the idea of doing a prequel season or a delay, I thought he stepped over the line.  This is a major investment for HBO and has become their most watched show.  They have a bunch of actors under contract and they can't hold them hostage while GRRM revels in world-building.  GRRM worked in television for a decade, he should know this.  And telling GRRM to write faster seems to have the opposite effect...he just seems to get angry and resentful and doesn't see the need to change what he's been doing.

 

I bought the first book in the late-90s but never got around to reading it (a bad habit I had with books that I'm glad I got out of a long time ago).  I'm also glad I didn't read it though...that wait would have driven me nuts.

 

I think too that GRRM knows how it's going to end and has no idea how to get there.  He does seem interested in talking about the books though, in doing side projects and short stories set in ASOIAF.  But does he have the same interesting in continuing the story, ie writing the remaining books?  He's been enjoying the perks of being a Celebrity Author and rightly so but eventually more and more people are going to be asking him when is he going to finish the books.

 

If he truly doesn't know how to move on from his current writing, then he really should bring another writer along to help him out.  He's pretty much ruled that out though.

 

Question...did GRRM have a different editor during the first three books that he ended up firing?

[Ripley68]

I feel like GRRM is just tell ing everyone "F U."  Thankfully, I didn't start reading the books until last year, but I would be going totally crazy.  I feel like he's fleshed out and thought out this whole world, and he's decided to tell us everything about it, whether we want to or not.  I can't help but comparing it to Harry Potter, The Hunger Games, Clan of the Cave Bear.  Can you imagine if Rowling had felt the need to write 3-4 chapters on how Cedric's home life had been and how he ended up in the Tri-wizard tournament?  Or if she had written a bunch of chapters about the Dursely's life while Harry was at school?  Or what if the Hunger Games had chapters on all the past champions games and their lives at home?  Jean Auel's books got progressively worse, and the last one took something like 10/15 years to come out.  I didn't even buy it, wasn't even all that interested, I can totally see that happening with me and Game of Thrones. Can you imagine how Harry Potter fans would have reacted if there were 5 years between books, same with The Hunger Games?

 

GRRM has to have a contract, he chose to add 1, even 2 books to the series (unneccessarily), he chose to not jump 5 years (which I think he could easily have done if he had cut out all the extra stuff we didn't need to know).  I'm not gonna say Quentyn was unnecessary, because someone had to let the dragons out, but we didn't need all the chapters explaining him. I would have been happy with "I'm the son of Dorn here to fulfill our promise to your father" type thing. It could easily have been explained in 1 or 2 paragraphs.  The Ironborn stuff puts me to sleep.  I'm guessing there is something with them at the end, but I don't need to know all this stuff.  GRRM seems to have not realized the rule, "if you show a gun in the first 10 minutes, you need to be sure it is used by the end" rule.  He just keeps introducing stuff and not wrapping up what he started. Book 1 was great, about 1/2 of book 2 was good, books 3 and 4 could so easily have been condensed to 1 book.  sigh.

[Minneapple]

A Dream of Spring is going to be soooo anticlimactic if it's ever released. If we get WoW within the next couple of years and GRRM follows his usual timeline (and, well, doesn't die), then A Dream of Spring will be released in, like, 2021. The show will have been over for years and a lot of people will have lost interest by then.

[HighQueenEB]

This is such an interesting thread to read and usually I don't have any comments to add but a thought, or, really, a theory, occurred to me as I read through recent posts.  The show is going to last 7 seasons.  We've just wrapped up season 4 so by 2017 we'll be done with the TV show.  Several have posited the notion that GRRM likes the attention, enjoys being a celebrity author.  So, my thought/theory is that TWOW will come out before the show ends (perhaps sometime next summer after season 5 has concluded).  That gives GRRM two more years to finish ADOS if he wants it done before the show ends which, at his current pacing, isn't all that likely.  But, being the attention whore that he is, what if ADOS comes out in late 2018?  Yes, the show will be over but it will still be present enough in the general public's mind to receive a fair bit of attention and it will put him squarely in the center of the media storm.  No one but him.  Not HBO, not the show's creators, not any of the actors, etc, just GRRM.  What could be more palatable to him?

[sev]

Giving the great amount of hints and foreshadowings in the plots, I hypothesize that GRRM isn't writing chapters one book after the other, but all over the time span of the story. Accordingly he'd take so long to write a book because he'd be tinkering on all the remaining ones too. If so, the last book should be a breeze.

I heard GRRM mentioned being a gardener more than an architect, but I imagine him planting all over the garden rather than one square after the other. Needing to see what grows all over, before freezing one square.

Either something like that or it's 5 years for each next book... *I* am feeling old.

[Avaleigh]

Also, regarding the actor/pizza boy comparisons- --

I have to agree that there's something unprofessional about somebody who thinks that they're above needing things like deadlines and basic discipline in order to keep them at least somewhat structured.

People do have to wait for pizza that's just obviously a lot easier to estimate when it comes to timing. I don't think the idea is that fans are objecting to having a wait. It's the idea of a wait with no end in sight on top of the knowledge that the ending will be put out there now via the show whether GRRM is finished or not. Since GRRM acknowledges that he's aware of how many fans of the books and show would prefer to read the books first it isn't like he doesn't understand the situation. He knows it's time to get cracking and how does he respond? Instead of maybe putting in a bit more time he'd rather complain about the show moving too fast. He wants to brainstorm other ways people can (and in his opinion should) bend over backwards for him in order to buy him more time so that he can enjoy himself traveling, attending cons, watching football, etc. He wants to tell people to fuck off because people think his lack of progress could very much be an indication that he won't finish on time. I don't know, he's the one who sounds a little entitled and immature if you ask me.

Using your actor example , it's not like Robert Redford was going around for years telling people that he's working on a sequel to The Sting and then kept delaying the release of the film because his style of acting requires numerous takes to the point where production continues to be delayed.

Warren Beatty otoh actually did sort of pull this bullshit on the last film he's done to date Town and Country. Multiple accounts have it that Beatty's ego was a big reason for the financial disaster that film turned out to be. Numerous rewriting was demanded, an excessive amount of takes even for minor scenes, a shooting schedule that rapidly became bloated , and a lead that most everyone involved felt they couldn't say no to even though his demands made production further delayed and more difficult than they needed to be. Consequently, the romantic comedy was a box office disaster and wasn't released until 2001 even though the bulk of principle photography took place in 1998. Warren Beatty hasn't done a film since and while he definitely could, there's no doubt that the T&C disaster tainted him in terms of him being unlikely to ever have that sort of control over a movie ever again.

I just feel like there are lessons to be learned from seeing situations where a person simply isn't told the word no enough. If people had been a bit more firm with GRRM years ago maybe the lack of editing in AFFC and ADWD wouldn't have been so glaring.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Avaleigh

[Winnief]

 

I think GRRM was surprised when he realized that unlike his publisher and editor, HBO wasn't going to placate his need for time.  When he started floating the idea of doing a prequel season or a delay, I thought he stepped over the line.

 

I first became convinced Martin was delusional when he started publicly assuming they would do AFFC and ADWD in two seasons possibly even adopting the split narrative.  There was no way in Seven Hell's that was going to happen; for one thing between AFFC and ADWD there's just not enough action for two whole seasons.  Can't do entire episodes of travelogues for Seven's Sakes. Martin's worked in tv he should know that.  Worse of all, you have two major climaxes being built up...that never occur.  Again it simply wasn't possible that D&D would do that or that they could afford to let Dany continuing wandering around forever in Essos instead of having her make some forward progress on Westeros.  The fact that he seems to resent D&D for taking a faster, more condensed approach to the material, (like he should have done when writing it,) is very telling.  

 

 

I just feel like there are lessons to be learned from seeing situations where a person simply isn't told the word no enough. If people had been a bit more firm with GRRM years ago maybe the lack of editing in AFFC and ADWD wouldn't have been so glaring.

 

Agreed.  To go back to your Warren Beatty example, it's not clear Martin's enablers, (coughGaimancough) really did him any favors in the long run.  As noted if/when the show outstrips the books it makes the arrival of future volumes fairly anti-climatic.  He clearly needed more discipline, and he probably *does* need another author to help him finish this whole thing.  Martin might not hear of it, but if things continue to go the way they have been his publisher might insist.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Winnief

[ElizaD]

To go back to your Warren Beatty example, it's not clear Martin's enablers, (coughGaimancough) really did him any favors in the long run.  As noted if/when the show outstrips the books it makes the arrival of future volumes fairly anti-climatic.

 

GRRM has been called the American Tolkien, but LOTR was a classic for decades before Peter Jackson won an Oscar for filming the unfilmable trilogy that was prestigious enough to overcome the Academy's genre bias (and fans got to read the Silmarillion and Tolkien's extras after they found out how the Ring was destroyed). GOT is such a pop culture behemoth now that it's going to overshadow the unfinished ASOIAF.

 

To be absolutely honest, I think it's a shame that GRRM's pride hasn't taken the form of being spurred to work damn hard and sacrifice his fun time at cons/random interviews to ensure the show doesn't pass the books but of suggesting ways for others to delay so that he doesn't have to change his style (in the news on the same day: GRRM says there's been talks about a movie but not everyone likes the idea/HBO says there's no conversations about a movie - it's time to let go, GRRM). I remember back during season 1 there was hopeful and even confident talk that now that GRRM has gotten ADWD out of the way, he's surely going to write faster because he won't want the show to get ahead of him. That hasn't happened.

 

 Jean Auel's books got progressively worse, and the last one took something like 10/15 years to come out.

 

Auel has to be the Ur Example of delays/excessive worldbuilding/horrible sex scenes wrecking a fun genre series.

[Fable]

If Martin wants to take his time, I guess he is under no real obligation to get his series done in a timely manner, but his attitude towards his fans, is really a bit off putting.  While I agree that this is his work and it's his business and his privilege to write at his pace, it's a bit much to expect the fandom to wait 20 plus years for the conclusion of a story.  It's even more off putting that he thinks the show should slow down for his sake.  God Lord, get a grip! 

 

The ONLY reason I bothered to read the books was because I had powered through the first 3 seasons of GoT last summer, and I did not want to wait another 8 or so months to find out what happened.  Now, if the show gets ahead of the books, I won't feel any need to read the rest of the books as I found most of them a bit tedious and rather dry reads. 

 

I love the show but your books aren't really my cup of tea, so go ahead Mr. Martin and take your sweet time!

Edited July 11, 2014 by Fable

[clack]

Taking 4-5 years to write 1,000 page books is not unreasonable. If he were a literary writer rather than a genre one, critics would be marveling at his prolificity.

 

Anyway, he tells us he is working at as fast a pace as he is able. Do we know better?

[SeanC]

Yeah, I mean why else have Dany go off on ANOTHER tangent in TWOW instead of having her meet Tyrion and take the fleet to Westeros?!?

Presumably because the rest of the story isn't in the position where she can arrive in Westeros, and she's got story elements to fulfill.  Dany vowed revenge on the Khal and his followers in AGOT; that's presumably what her Dothraki sojourn will involve, among other things.

[Haleth]

GRRM has been called the American Tolkien

 

Heh, and it took JRRT 30 years to write LOTR.

[Avaleigh]

Anyway, he tells us he is working at as fast a pace as he is able. Do we know better?

I won't go so far as to say that I know better. Obviously I'm not in this man's life and I can basically only go by what he and other people connected with the book put out there. I do know that he's said time and again that he doesn't write while he's traveling and IMO if we're supposed to take him at his word, then that's at least a fairly good indicator as to how much time he hasn't spent writing. Considering that he's made it plain that he'd prefer it if the books didn't overtake him, he could have increased the time he spent writing by maybe putting off some other time consuming activity.

Do I think that he's working as fast as he is able? Not really. Not based on what he's had to say or what his editor has had to say. I think he's working as fast as he'd like to not as fast as he is able. Big difference IMO.

As far as 4-5 years being standard for a 1000 page book--maybe so, but I do think there are other factors to consider like knowing that he had a decent sized head start because of all of the material that was removed from ADWD. It's also not like he has to do massive research like David McCullough in addition to the actual writing.

I don't know, I feel like GRRM seems willing to consider damn near anything except of course maybe putting in a bit more time and work. It's like a person who acts surprised when they hear that diet and exercise can be helpful when it comes to weight loss. If he puts in more time writing, the book might even be out on time.

Edited July 12, 2014 by Avaleigh

[ChaseMCP]

Overall, I guess my main concern is that I'm going to lose interest if he takes too long to finish the books. I only started reading them last year, so I can't imagine the people who have had to wait for so much longer over the years. It would be different if there was a date out to tell us when to expect the next book. Right now though, it could be a year or five years before it comes out and considering how much the last two books challenged my interest, I don't want to put forth too much effort to get excited even though I really do want to read the next book. With a date in mind, I could get excited by counting down the days. Now, I'm just mostly apathetic. And I grateful to the show for their speed because at least it stirs up my interest again.

[Fable]

Heh, and it took JRRT 30 years to write LOTR

 

 

According to the website tolkiengateway.net (which for some reason, I am having a hard time linking to at the moment), LoTR was written as one book over a period of 12 years (1937 to 1949) and was published as 3 separate books in a time span of just a little over 1 year (1954-1955), so while it may have taken JRRT over a decade to write, readers didn't have to wait over 20 years to watch the story unfold. 

 

If GRRM feels he never wants to write another word, that's his right, and I don't feel like he owes me or anyone, but I probably will not read the rest of his series, if it ever comes out, once I have seen the conclusion of the TV show.  If I had started reading these books when the first one came out, I would have probably given up long ago after realizing how long it was going to be between books.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Fable

[clack]

Some writers can only put in 3 hours a day before they dry up. Some can put in 8 or more hours. Some write 365 days a year, others need a break here and there, especially on multi-year projects.

 

GRRM has been a professional writer for 43 years. I expect he knows what routines work for him.

[Winnief]

 

As far as 4-5 years being standard for a 1000 page book--maybe so but I do think there are other factors to consider like knowing that he had a decent sized head start because of all of the material that was removed from ADWD. 

 

I wonder about that too.  I also feel he probably removed the wrong stuff from ADWD; we could have cut out almost all of Qwentyn, Victarion, some of the Mereenese knot-at least all of Dany's mooning over Daario, and a bunch of Tyrion's travelogues too and made room for the Big Battles and Jon's Resurrection.  It would have been a better book AND it would have bought more time to complete TWOW without D&D spoiling any big climatic moments which they are almost bound to do now.  Plus maybe, just maybe hitting the ground running in TWOW after the battle's and Jon's rebirth, would have made it easier to write out everything else as well as reducing TWOW's page length and thus the now ever more likely event of the series extending to eight books.  The man has to learn when it's time to let some stuff go.

 

 

Presumably because the rest of the story isn't in the position where she can arrive in Westeros, and she's got story elements to fulfill.  Dany vowed revenge on the Khal and his followers in AGOT; that's presumably what her Dothraki sojourn will involve, among other things.

Case in point.  It's not really a necessary detour and even if it was he ought to be able to finish it in a chapter or two then have Dany fly right back to Mereen.  And what exactly is it that requires Dany to stay away from Westeros even longer?!?  Aegon's potential reign in KL?!?  Oh, we're all panting to read about that!  It's so crucial to the rest of the story!  The IB wreaking havoc over Westeros?!?  That's already happening.  Hell, a battle royale is likely to break out in Oldtown any minute now.  Implosion of House Lannister and some more dramatic deaths?!?  Ditto.  The Wall coming down and White Walkers sweeping over the Seven Kingdoms-again something that could just as easily begin now, since even when Dany does sail to Westeros that will take time and probably require a stop or two along the way.  

[benteen]

 

I don't know, I feel like GRRM seems willing to consider damn near anything except of course maybe putting in a bit more time and work. It's like a person who acts surprised when they hear that diet and exercise can be helpful when it comes to weight loss. If he puts in more time writing, the book might even be out on time. 

 

You're right.  GRRM's answer is never that he's going to spend less time traveling and spend more time writing.  It's always delay, delay, prequel series, delay, adapt ALL the material in my book, delay.  His publisher and editor are fine with that but HBO isn't putting up with that.  They're going to move and he can either be on the train or stay off it.

 

I don't know if he wants to continue writing the books but his editor mentioned he was "contracted for seven" and he's getting advances for it.  So he has to continue writing it.  And I would think his publisher would want them to be completed during the show's run so it won't affect sales and while all things A Song of Ice and Fire are getting maximum exposure.

[Winnief]

 

I don't know if he wants to continue writing the books but his editor mentioned he was "contracted for seven" and he's getting advances for it.  So he has to continue writing it.  And I would think his publisher would want them to be completed during the show's run so it won't affect sales and while all things A Song of Ice and Fire are getting maximum exposure.

 

We know his editor's been pleading with him to stay ahead of the show; sadly editors don't seem to hold much sway with Martin anymore.

 

I do wonder, though, if there isn't something in his publishing contract about deadlines?!?  That could come back to haunt him.  Or if/when he finishes TWOW, if he could be sure of getting an advance for the following book(s) because at this point the publishers might consider him a bad bet.

[Haleth]

According to the website tolkiengateway.net (which for some reason, I am having a hard time linking to at the moment), LoTR was written as one book over a period of 12 years (1937 to 1949) and was published as 3 separate books in a time span of just a little over 1 year (1954-1955), so while it may have taken JRRT over a decade to write, readers didn't have to wait over 20 years to watch the story unfold.

 

Sorry to be off topic, but Tolkien began tinkering with the world of Middle Earth in 1917.  It was his way of passing the time during the war.  Fable, you are right though that the books were published within a short time so fans weren't bringing out the pitchforks and storming the castle for the remaining volumes.

 

I have a feeling that we are going to have to rely on the show writers for any conclusion and that may not be a bad thing.  It may not be the conclusion that GRRM wants (other than in broad terms) but he has no one but himself to blame.  I'm betting he never finishes book 7, let alone 8.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Haleth

[Fable]

I wish there was a thread to compare JRRT and GRRM, because I think there are a lot of interesting comparisons to be made, but I'm not going to start one because I'm just not sure that it would generate much interest. 

 

 

I would like to say this though.  Both did love their world building, but at least Tolkien had the good sense to keep most these stories as separate entities for interested parties only and did not include them in his story telling.  When reading the Martin series, I feel like, after I have read what everyone was served at dinner, what they were wearing and the state of the wall decorations, I have completely forgotten where the story is going. 

 

 

I know I probably sound like I hated his books, but I really didn't, although I didn't love them either.  I think the concept behind his novels is very smart and provocative, and his characters are by and large pretty interesting (because obviously I would likely not have enjoyed the TV show if not).  My problem is that it seemed a lot of the things he wrote were poorly executed.  It seemed like he needed to explain too much to the reader without leaving much to the imagination, and this brought the story telling to a grinding halt!

Edited July 12, 2014 by Fable

[Avaleigh]

GRRM has been a professional writer for 43 years. I expect he knows what routines work for him.

Clack I was trying to quote you and I accidentally liked the post. Not that I dislike it or anything lol...yay, for different opinions! I just disagree that GRRM's routine is currently working for him when I consider that he doesn't want the show to overtake him. If he needs to get the work out faster than he's done lately, then to me that suggests there needs to be some extra effort on the part of GRRM and I haven't seen anything to indicate that he's willing to make that effort.

I would have very different feelings about all of this if the show weren't a factor, but since it is a factor and GRRM himself would prefer it if he could keep ahead of the show, why wouldn't he want to consider alternatives where he has to compromise in terms of giving himself the "blocks of time" he requires?

Also, his slow pace doesn't IMO really explain the decline in writing for the last two books. How many times do we have to read about Tyrion shaking off the last few drops? Dany and Asha have nearly identical sex scenes at one point. Numerous unnecessary things pad the books out. Imagine if he'd subtracted half of the repeat phrases? Words are wind. We know, we know. He knows we know. Yet still he persists with the repetition. What does he think is the point of having an editor, I wonder?

Edited July 12, 2014 by Avaleigh

[Hecate7]

It's probably true that some of the travel and cons are contractual obligations, but I doubt that they all are. GRRM understands his methods best, sure. Plenty of people take a long time to create, and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

But there are two issues here, and GRRM is treating them as one issue. Nobody cares how long it takes him to write a book. What they care about, is how long it takes him to keep his promise. I can take years to do a watercolor, then put it out there and maybe someone buys it, maybe not, but there's no nagging or annoyance involved. But once I sign a contract saying yes, you'll have it in a month, well, I'd better have it to them in a month. Period. And if I don't there is hell to pay.

 

At least the show will be finished. I don't expect the books to be. It's just not his way, to finish 2 books inside of 10 years. His fans know this, having waited 11 years at one point.

[Holmbo]

Interesting discussion.
I was gonna way in and say that I don't think GRRM owes anything to his fans. If he decided to retire today or start writing an entire different series I'd feel he'd have every right to do so. But then I read those comments about him having signed a contract for seven books (I don't know much about GRRM or the business making of writing, perhaps this is standard to do so) and that actually makes me change my opinion. If he has signed a contract to write seven books then he has an obligation to write them. It doesn't matter if he'd rather do something else. I'm full on board with the pizza boy analogy now.

 

I'm with those who think that he just doesn't know the details about the endings of his stories. I'm not sure what's the best way to remedy this. I would think bringing in some people to brainstorm with him but I don't know his way of writing or what would work for him.

 

Since some people where bringing up Auel I'll mention that I liked all her books except the last one which I thought was terrible. But at least she did provide a conclusion to her story. I got the feeling that she had some ideas set up that she didn't manage to use.

Like she set up that Brukeval to be mentally ill and to plan and kill Jondalar. Then in the last book she introduces a new mentally ill character that Ayla has to deal with and Brukeval just leaves without doing anything. I felt that the conclusion to the briefly featured new character was probably supposed to be Brukeval's conclusion but she couldn't get it to work in the story for some reason.

But probably she realized she was not gonna make it better by spending more time writing on it so she just finished it anyway.