Spoilers & Speculation: Running Hot & Cold

[Miss Dee]

Oh man, there's gonna be a hot time in the Old (West) town tonight! Or 42 nights from now....

[wingster55]

Negative? Perhaps. But warranted knowing of the anti-blackness on all Arrowverse shows. 

[tennisgurl]

So, I am starting to suspect that Nate will end up being the grandpa of Amayas grand kids, considering they really like to...hang out, Amaya still hasn't gone back to her own time to meet any future baby daddy, and the comment a few weeks ago about how Nate is "important too", so I am starting to think they will end up staying in the past together at some point. Of course, her grandkids dont remember him, so maybe he died before they were born? 

Next week looks quite a bit more intense than the last few weeks have been. Understandably, considering Damien and Nora are going to hurt poor, sweet, bad life choice making Ray. With what happened to Stein not long ago, the idea of losing a friend/teammate is going to be a very raw nerve for the gang, I would imagine. 

[Featherhat]

13 hours ago, wingster55 said:

Referring to those 4 as geniuses and then follow up with why he didn't fit in insinuates that he doesn't view himself as one and that point isn't refuted. Furthermore it's also saying that Iris and Joe aren't geniuses or intelligent because they aren't scientists or doctors (and knowing these writers also because they're black). 

This is the show that had Rip and the Time Bureau spend several episodes doing nothing but bad mouthing the team, despite the fact that Rip himself recruited them and he was there when they broke time. Wally feeling like he doesn't fit in in that way is mild for the Legends. And quite frankly, whilst I know it's frustrating for his fans I think it will be The Flash's loss. 

I do think Wally's engineering will be a plot point because they just lost the ship mechanic and he's likely to be taking over.

Not sure I'd call Barry a genius either, he could have said "I don't think they know what to do with two Flashes" but oh well.

[darkestboy]

This is going to be quite a crowded finale then.

The Main Team: Sara, Ray, Mick, Gideon, Nate, Amaya, Zari and Wally

Also Helping Out: Rip, Jax, Ava, Gary, John Constantine, Jonah Hex

Baddies: Mallus, Damien, Nora and Kuasa

Plus Beebo might be in the mix. Have I missed anyone else?

[Miss Dee]

DCTV's gonna do Avengers 3 before Marvel does. I freaking love it.

[Starfish35]

I think Kuasa will switch sides.  I am unsure about Nora, but last night's episode made me think it was a possibility.

5 hours ago, Featherhat said:

This is the show that had Rip and the Time Bureau spend several episodes doing nothing but bad mouthing the team, despite the fact that Rip himself recruited them and he was there when they broke time.

Yep.  Still annoyed by that. 

[Sakura12]

Freeing Nora from Mallus might get her to realize she was nothing but a pawn for her father to get what he wanted. I actually think when Nora said Ray's name that was the version that was trapped in the spirit world, then Mallus took back over and tried to kill him. As for Kuasa, I could see her dying again to save Amaya or joining the Legends when Amaya goes back to 1942. 

3 hours ago, darkestboy said:

This is going to be quite a crowded finale then.

The Main Team: Sara, Ray, Mick, Gideon, Nate, Amaya, Zari and Wally

Also Helping Out: Rip, Jax, Ava, Gary, John Constantine, Jonah Hex

Baddies: Mallus, Damien, Nora and Kuasa

Plus Beebo might be in the mix. Have I missed anyone else?

I'm hoping for an appearance by adult Gumball. And what happened to Grodd? Isn't he with Darkh and Mallus. 

Edited February 27, 2018 by Sakura12

[tarotx]

It looks like all the legends will wear the remaining totems. 

 

 

https://stealingsnotscrewingup.tumblr.com

 

Edit: There's only 5 wearable (because of Kuasa) totems and 7 (plus Rip&Jax) Legends So yeah I shouldn't have used the word all. 

Edited March 1, 2018 by tarotx

[Sakura12]

I'm guessing Sara's got the death totem since it's black. Ray doesn't have one, unless they somehow get Kuasa's. 

[Starfish35]

Ray doesn't, and Wally doesn't.  And Rip - I'm assuming he's going to be there as well. 

Grodd - I forgot about Grodd.  Hopefully the writers didn't. :)

[Sakura12]

Why do all the totems except Amaya's look like cheap costume jewelry? The props department didn't put much thought into them. Lol

[MarkHB]

Isn't Nate actually wearing Zari's Isis totem? 

[Starfish35]

No, if you look close, he's got that heavy chain that was hooked to the emerald in this last episode.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

So, could Ray use Amaya's totem if he still had it?  Zari took over her brother's.  And if five of them were African totems, do we know how Air, Fire and Earth make it out of Africa?

[Solace247]

I was just rewatching this past ep. Something that stuck out to me was when Amaya was describing to Blackbeard why the totem interacted with Annie the way it did. Her darkness was affecting how the totem functioned. Again, when trying to talk Annie down, she mentions darker impulses controlling or interacting with the totem. In ep. 3x01, Amaya was all menacing towards the Brit soldiers while engaging her totem. All this to say, the totems keep being represented as a burden and a controlling force on the wearer. Sara may not become possessed by Mallus (though it's being heavily foreshadowed) but she could become a malevolent force to reckoned with if a 'death' totem magnifies her inner darkness.

Edited March 1, 2018 by Solace247
Clarity

[Sakura12]

Didn't Amaya say it was because she wasn't chosen to wear the totem? I think it's if you are chosen you can control the totem, if you wear it and are not chosen the totem can control you.  

With Sara I think with everything this season that is going to show her that the darkness doesn't control her anymore, her lightness flies above the darkness now like the card that Constantine gave her. However I do think Mallus needs Sara to get the death totem, I think she's the only one that can having been dead and resurrected. Mallus wants those powers. Although I do wonder what powers the death totem has. The other totems control the elements or animal spirits in Amaya's case.   

LoT is doing Totem War for the finale with Team Legends, plus Jonah Hex, Jax and Constantine vs probably Darkh, Nora, Kuasa, Mallus and I would assume an appearance by Grodd. 

Edited March 1, 2018 by Sakura12

[lurker22]

I still don't understand how the totems work. Didn't Amaya say the 5 totems are supposed to protect the villages in Zambesi back in S2? And she also kept saying it's her birthright and burden to wear it. I don't understand how Zari's brother came to have one of the totems. And can someone not from Zambesi be chosen to wear the totems, because how else could Mick and Nate control the Fire and Earth totems? The Death totem is more ambiguous because even Amaya couldn't find any info on it, so maybe the rules are different. Although I'm very interested in how the Death totem works. Does it also signify Rebirth, like in tarot cards? What powers does it actually give the wearer, aka Sara? Also, are the Legends going to keep these totems for future use, or will they be gone after this season? It might be interesting for Sara to have magical powers now, and Caity actually said she wanted a totem like Tala and Maisie.

It's going to be strange seeing Constantine in the Old West. I wonder if Jax is in the Final Fight together with the Legends, or if we're going to see him only when the Legends visit him at the end of the episode.

Edited March 1, 2018 by lurker22

[Sakura12]

The totems were given to the 5 tribes of Zambezi, I can go with some of the tribes moved to other countries or were stolen at some point and that's why they are all over the world now. Only Amaya's tribe was able to keep theirs. 

[Solace247]

6 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Didn't Amaya say it was because she wasn't chosen to wear the totem? I think it's if you are chosen you can control the totem, if you wear it and are not chosen the totem can control you.  

With Sara I think with everything this season that is going to show her that the darkness doesn't control her anymore, her lightness flies above the darkness now like the card that Constantine gave her. However I do think Mallus needs Sara to get the death totem, I think she's the only one that can having been dead and resurrected. Mallus wants those powers. Although I do wonder what powers the death totem has. The other totems control the elements or animal spirits in Amaya's case.   

LoT is doing Totem War for the finale with Team Legends, plus Jonah Hex, Jax and Constantine vs probably Darkh, Nora, Kuasa, Mallus and I would assume an appearance by Grodd. 

Amaya said it could be a burden even if you were chosen to wear it. I don't know what being chosen really means. As lurker22 mentioned below, Zari's totem was her brother's first. The rules are a little all over the place.

As for Sara and her darkness, I hope it's a little more prolonged and involved than that because otherwise it'll feel a little rehashy since she kind of dealt with 'temptation for revenge/urge to change the past/inner light wins over' last season with the Spear.

[Maelstrom]

17 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

And if five of them were African totems, do we know how Air, Fire and Earth make it out of Africa?

4 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

The totems were given to the 5 tribes of Zambezi, I can go with some of the tribes moved to other countries or were stolen at some point and that's why they are all over the world now. Only Amaya's tribe was able to keep theirs. 

Just look at Egypt. Countries all over the world have "borrowed" their artifacts.

[Sakura12]

Ep 15

C’S LEGENDS OF TOMORROW

“Necromancing the Stone” — (8:00-9:00 p.m. ET) (Content Rating TBD) (HDTV)

THE POWER WITHIN —  When Mallus’ power over Sara (Caity Lotz) resurfaces, she unwittingly becomes the bearer of one of the Totems.  Rory (Dominic Purcell) must conquer his dark side in order to wield his own Totem power to help save the crew.  Meanwhile, Agent Sharpe (guest star Jes Macallan) notices that something is wrong and recruits someone unorthodox to help. Brandon Routh, Nick Zano, Maise Richardson-Sellers, Keiynan Lonsdale and Nick Zano also star. April Mullen directed the episode written by Grainne Godfree & Morgan Faust (#315).  Original airdate 3/19/2018.

[Maelstrom]

That sounds awesome! Thanks for sharing.

Stupid question time: how many eps do we get this season? I used to know but now I’ve completely drawn a blank. Is it 16 again, or do we get more?

[Sakura12]

5 minutes ago, Maelstrom said:

That sounds awesome! Thanks for sharing.

Stupid question time: how many eps do we get this season? I used to know but now I’ve completely drawn a blank. Is it 16 again, or do we get more?

we get 18 episodes this season. 

 

Sara: "Of course I'd get the death totem"

Ray: "Well, you've died enough times" 

Wally: "Wait, what? how many times have you died?"

The team starts arguing how many times Sara died. 

Edited March 2, 2018 by Sakura12

[Miss Dee]

More Mick Rory character development. I AM HERE FOR THIS.

Writers, let's do something novel this season and have Mick decide he is NOT going to betray his teammates. 'Kay?

[johntfs]

6 hours ago, Miss Dee said:

More Mick Rory character development. I AM HERE FOR THIS.

Writers, let's do something novel this season and have Mick decide he is NOT going to betray his teammates. 'Kay?

Excepting something like mind control, etc., I think that corner was turned last season when Mick sold out the team to get everything he thought he wanted and found that he hated it.  And while that didn't really happen to this version of Mick, enough was communicated that I don't think he'd go down that road any more. 

I hope the question of Amaya (and/or Nate) going to 1942 Africa gets dealt with once and for all.  I think it will if for no other reason than that the storyline involving the Totems will come to some kind of climax and close.  I don't know if the Totems will be lost, destroyed, de-powered or transfer their power to their most recent bearer, but I think we'll see the Totems cease to play a lead role in the series after this season.

I suspect that next season is going to focus more on Zari and her wish to "fix" her home time.  Figure the villains will be those with a vested interest in seeing that time stay as it is.  Hell, we might learn that there's a connection between the Earth X Nazis and her 2042.  We know the Nazis had access to a Waverider, which implies they have some understanding of time travel.

[shantown]

On 3/2/2018 at 4:10 PM, johntfs said:

I hope the question of Amaya (and/or Nate) going to 1942 Africa gets dealt with once and for all.

  Is there any spec that these two are leaving? They're two of the newer Legends, but have been around for two seasons already.

[johntfs]

9 minutes ago, shantown said:

  Is there any spec that these two are leaving? They're two of the newer Legends, but have been around for two seasons already.

There's obviously speculation - it's on this board if nowhere else, but there been no official indication.  I don't need them to leave, but the question does need to be resolved.  I'd be fine if it turns out that some kind of "time clone" of Amaya goes to 1942 Africa while our Amaya stays on the ship with Nate.

And speaking of Amaya, happy slightly late birthday to Maise Richardson-Sellers, who turned 26 March 2.

[shantown]

2 hours ago, johntfs said:

There's obviously speculation - it's on this board if nowhere else, but there been no official indication.  I don't need them to leave, but the question does need to be resolved.  I'd be fine if it turns out that some kind of "time clone" of Amaya goes to 1942 Africa while our Amaya stays on the ship with Nate.

Thanks for the info and for knowing what I actually meant - spoilers, not speculation! Always get those two mixed up!

If Nate and/or Amaya leave, they've gotta be bringing in a new Legend right? Even with Wally, it would leave them at just 5 people. This is one of the few shows that handles a large cast exceptionally well so I'd love to see them bring in someone (even if Nate and/or Amaya stay). 
Side note - I see a Season Two Wishlist thread - is there a S4/Future Wishlist thread that's a better place to discuss these things?

[Starfish35]

TVLine did an interview with Violett Beane, mostly talking about this week's Flash episode.  They did ask her about her Legends appearance, but she didn't give much away.

Quote

TVLINE | What can you say about your Legends of Tomorrow visit, airing March 19? Wally West (played by Keiynan Lonsdale) is now on that show. Did Jesse feel she owed him some face time?
There’s a bit of that…. You see Wally and Jesse together in a room, and things are not what you expect them to be. And… that’s about all I can say! [Laughs] It’s going to be cool and, I think, pretty surprising for the audience.

Edited March 5, 2018 by Starfish35

[Sakura12]

I wonder if it's a different Jesse one from an earlier or future timeline. 

[Starfish35]

I've been thinking that it will be a hallucination!Jesse, based on nothing at all.

ETA:  Well, sort of based on something.  That episode is Necromancing the Stone, right? Where Mallus takes over Sara?  I guess I was kind of thinking Mallus might be playing some mind games on the crew.

Edited March 5, 2018 by Starfish35

[Sakura12]

That could be true, Mallus would need to distract the Speedster. 

[Starfish35]

Ok wait a minute.  I'm watching the episode and get to the part where Darhk threatens Ray's mom.  And it made me remember - wasn't Ray's twin supposed to be in an episode this season?  What happened with that?

[darkestboy]

Maybe they're leaving it for next season perhaps? Could be the next big Ray one, early Season 4.

I'm thinking though - 3x14 seems to be a Nate episode, 3x15 seems a Sara/Mick/Amaya one, 3x16 the big Ava episode and 3x18 the finale with nearly everyone on board. I wonder what 3x17 will be about.

[lurker22]

I'm now leaning towards Ava being an android. Ep 16 is called "I, Ava", which could be a reference to "I, Robot". Ava was the name of the android in both "Ex Machina" and The Machine", the latter being the movie where Caity played the android. Gideon called Rip "Director Hunter" because Ava, as an android, can't be the director of TB, which makes newly reinstated Rip the highest ranking officer instead. Rip's (lack of) reaction to Grodd killing Bennet and Ava becoming "director" makes me think he already knew this was going to happen. Ava was also being arguably robotic at the beginning with all the rules. But like Gideon, as she spent more time with Sara, she started to gain a personality and caught feelings for Sara (or she was hacked - might explain the quick change in attitude). And Gideon ships Ava/Sara because if an android can be in a relationship with a human, then there's hope for her and Rip, lol!

[Starfish35]

I don't think we even have a title for 3x17 yet.  But we should get it next week.  The "I, Ava" episide description will be released this week, and the 3.17 episode will be released next week.

[Starfish35]

Someone on Tumblr put forth the theory that all of the time bureau agents are Time Ship AIs, like Gideon, downloaded into humanoid bodies.   I'm bottom-lining it, and I can see some holes in the argument.  But it's an intriguing idea.

I don't think it's going to be as simple as who she's related to or descended from, though.

[Miss Dee]

The guy who ends up spoiling whole episodes on Reddit dropped a bit of info on 3x15 that might shed some light on this. I'll put it in spoiler tags because it's a genuine spoiler, not carefully leaked stuff, but the mods can change that if they want.

 

Spoiler

Either through flashback or reference, not sure which, in 3x15 there's a mention of a man Sara killed during her time with the League of Assassins. That young man had a daughter....

About the only thing that could genuinely capsize the Avalance ship is if Ava discovers Sara is directly responsible for that level of tragedy in her life. That is something Rip would try to put under wraps for their happiness, knowing it's not going to do anyone any good. And 3x16 "I, Ava" is probably just referring to an Ava-centric episode where we learn this about her and where she discovers Sara is the one responsible.

[Sakura12]

Well that would be interesting.

 

I never thought about Sara's past being part of Ava's secret. It will be heartbreaking if that were true. They make jokes about Sara being an assassin but she did kill people for hire for 5 years, she probably killed a lot people's parents. 

Edited March 7, 2018 by Sakura12

[Starfish35]

I can see that, but, well, in all honesty, that's a lot less interesting than a lot of the other speculations. Lol. :)

Also, it doesn't explain why Rip would say that Ava is special, or why Gideon would call him "Director Hunter."  Both of those can be explained away - Rip has a special affection for Ava, and Gideon's first loyalty is always to Rip.  But still.  

Also, it seems like, if that's the case, it would be more important for Ava not to find about Sara, than for Sara not to find out about Ava.  That's the part that's throwing me.

[shantown]

Speculation elsewhere on the 'net is still stuck in the idea that Ava must be a descendant of someone, but the newest theory is that she's a descendant of Damien Darkh... meaning if Sara/the Legends kill Darkh in the past, Ava disappears in the present. It could be plausible, since Rip wouldn't want Sara to know that. She might be hesitant to save time by killing Darkh if it also meant indirectly killing her girlfriend.

[Starfish35]

Not totally sure I buy that. Killing Darhk in the past (and thus preventing him from killing Laurel) was ruled out last season.  Killing current Darhk wouldn't change anything as long as Nora lives, unless we're thinking that Darhk would have other children.  

[Sakura12]

I think they are going with Darkh has another daughter sometime in the future and that daughter is Ava. I'm still going to go with Ava's an anachronism or she died and Rip went to her to join the Time Bureau before her death.  Because I'm sure like the Legends, Rip chose people that didn't matter to the time line for his new group. 

I mostly don't see why Ava being related to someone Sara knows would be such a big secret and don't know why so many people went to that conclusion. Even if Ava is Darkh's daughter she doesn't seem to know it so I don't think Sara would hold that against her. And she has a time ship just go kill Darkh after Ava's born. 

Edited March 8, 2018 by Sakura12

[Solace247]

21 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

Also, it doesn't explain why Rip would say that Ava is special, or why Gideon would call him "Director Hunter."  Both of those can be explained away - Rip has a special affection for Ava, and Gideon's first loyalty is always to Rip.

I've seen this raised in a couple of places. There were always at least two directors at the TB--Director Bennet and Director Hunter. Rip was tossed in jail after the tribunal. In this ep. Bennet dies, Ava ascends to Director Prime, I suppose, and reinstates Hunter to his previous position. Gideon is just addressing him as such.

[Starfish35]

33 minutes ago, Solace247 said:

I've seen this raised in a couple of places. There were always at least two directors at the TB--Director Bennet and Director Hunter. Rip was tossed in jail after the tribunal. In this ep. Bennet dies, Ava ascends to Director Prime, I suppose, and reinstates Hunter to his previous position. Gideon is just addressing him as such.

That could be.

52 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I think they are going with Darkh has another daughter sometime in the future and that daughter is Ava. I'm still going to go with Ava's an anachronism or she died and Rip went to her to join the Time Bureau before her death.  Because I'm sure like the Legends, Rip chose people that didn't matter to the time line for his new group. 

I mostly don't see why Ava being related to someone Sara knows would be such a big secret and don't know why so many people went to that conclusion. Even if Ava is Darkh's daughter she doesn't seem to know it so I don't think Sara would hold that against her. And she has a time ship just go kill Darkh after Ava's born. 

Yeah, I can't see Darhk having another daughter.  I don't know - that just kinda doesn't work for me.  

The speculation about Ava being the daughter of someone Sara murdered in her LoA days does seem like something the show would do, but it doesn't explain why Rip thinks Ava is "special", nor why it's so important that Sara not find that out.  It would be more important in that case for Ava not to know.  

As for Ava being related to anyone else in the Arrowverse, there's no reason that would need to be a secret from Sara.  Unless it was herself, but this show is not going to go full incest. 

[Sakura12]

I think the Sara thing could tie everything around to Sara's introduction. On Arrow she said she left the League because she killed some diplomat and his kids found him in the morning. Ava could've been one of the kids. 

[Starfish35]

Yeah but that's more a big secret about Sara than about Ava.  Going that way, there's nothing at all special about Ava.  She's just a normal person.  Which may in fact turn out to be the case, but would, IMO, be a bit of a let down.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Starfish35

[Sakura12]

They showed us Ava is an equal fighter to Sara, maybe she's trained her while life to kill the assassin that killed her father. Or he could just think shes special because he choose her and trained her. 

We only have Rip saying Ava's special and Rip's word isn't worth much. 

[Starfish35]

All that is true, and the thing about Ava being "special" may be a deliberate misdirect by the show.  I just, personally, would find it a bit disappointing.  This whole intrigue about Ava is really the first time I've found her remotely interesting, so to have it be something not really about her at all would be kind of like ".....oh. Well that's boring." Lol.