Spoilers & Speculation: Running Hot & Cold

[apinknightmare]

If it is the Lazarus Pit, who did it? Nyssa, even though she seems pretty set in her grief? Malcolm as some sort of backup of his backup plan? Someone we don't know about yet? Ra's, for...some kind of reason?

[statsgirl]

Belinea said

 

As for Sara, I was listening to a podcast today and the Pit was mentioned to work even after one year of being dead. Apparently the longer you've been dead the crazier you might come out. So there might still be a Sara resurrection possible.

so Nyssa could do it even now.  Or she could have done it with her super sekrit assassins when she found out that Sara was dead and where she was buried, and what you see now as grief is rage at how Sara's "friends" treated her, plus some grief that Sara will be changed forever, if the LP even works.

[KirkB]

I agree they need to have the Pit spelled out on Arrow, and that Sara should be brought back on Arrow, if that is indeed the way they go, before she is shuffled off to the new show. As for the question of who did it, if indeed it was done, the most likely candidates are Nyssa and Ra's. It's entirely possible no one outside of the LoA leadership even knows about the Pits, or the extent of what they can do, including Malcolm. Would the seemingly immortal Ra's go around advertising the fact his hot tub is what keeps him that way? If Ra's is still around and in charge after this season it's possible Nyssa brings Sara back without his knowledge or permission and thus has to get her away from Starling to explain why she isn't on Arrow any more. Though I have to wonder if the Pit does exist and Nyssa knows about it, why wouldn't she have run into the cemetery and dug her up as soon as she found out Sara was dead?

Edited March 7, 2015 by KirkB

[manbearpig]

Yeah, the only way I'm going to be able to buy this is that, for whatever reason, Nyssa didn't know about the pit, because if she did surely she would've hauled Sara's coffin to Nanda Parbat as soon as she heard Sara had been killed. Just have Nyssa say something about thinking her dad's speeches about 1865 or whenever were the musings of a nutcase, and then...boom, Nyssa finds out in the finale about the pit, and uses it to resurrect Sara.

 

They really should not have killed Sara if they were just going to bring her back anyway.

[Morrigan2575]

If they go LP, I agree it's either Nyssa or Ra's. It's possible that Ras forbid Nyssa from using it on Sara and she obeyed because she's loyal. However, now that her father has betrayed (passing her over as heir) she may rebel against daddy, help Oliver out and then say eff it I'm bringing my love back.

Honestly, if I had my way Sara would come back and the spinoff would center on Nyssa/Sara taking control of the league, turning it into The Red League and saving women around the world.

Of course if I had my way, Sara never would have died in the first place.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[statsgirl]

Nyssa/Sara taking control of the League sounds like a better idea. But then, they wouldn't have the Atom.

 

I suspect that their plans were all about The Atom and his show, and Sara had to be killed off so that Laurel could become the Black Canary.  What went wrong was that Ray Palmer was not nearly as attractive as they thought he was (plus bad writing for the character), Laurel rise not as popular as they thought, and Sara was a great deal more popular than they had anticipated, and the outrage at her execution took them by surprise. With the need to make the new spin-off a Justice League thing rather than just The Atom, and Sara's popularity, they did what they had decided they weren't going to do and brought her back from the dead a third time.

 

Though I have to wonder if the Pit does exist and Nyssa knows about it, why wouldn't she have run into the cemetery and dug her up as soon as she found out Sara was dead?

We don't know that she didn't though.  Laurel wouldn't have known, she'd be crying at an empty grave.  Maybe Nyssa did grab Sara but is waiting for the right time to sneak her into a LP so that her father doesn't find out.  Or maybe she does it out of fury when she learns that Ra's is giving the Head job to a guy who lost his family's company, can't fight and lately is barely holding his team of 4 together because of his bad decisions.

[foreverevolving]

Is there any particular theory holding more weight than others? So far we seem to have:

 

1) The real Sara was never actually dead. Some sort lookalike died on that rooftop.

2) Lazarus pit.

3) Time travel shenanigans.

4) Alternate universe Sara.

5) Secretly has some sort of resurrection/healing ability.

6) Clone.

 

And what do you suppose it says to the EP's, not to mention Routh and the others, when all the talk/interest seems to be about Caity/Sara?

 

mmm... I wouldn't say no to option #4... if they are going the route of "infinite earths" part of the crisis.

[Lokiberry]

I honestly think they'll just toss Sarah into the Lazarus Pit because it's the easiest solution to the problem. As for who'll do it: Nyssa or Ra's, with an outside chance of it being Malcolm, in an effort by the writers to "redeem" an evil character they don't want to get rid of.

[foreverevolving]

My only issue with using the LP is that Sara has been dead for several months now. to go the LP route, they'll have to show us or tell us that someone removed her body right after she was buried (cause.. you know) and that she had been alive through the entire of season 3 other wise it doesn't work.

so that pretty much removes Nyssa cause she only found out about Sara's death a week or so after she was buried, and if she only found out so did Ra's.

 

Yea, for all rational brains sake I hope they won't go the LP sake. I can live with a clone created from Sara's DNA. but an AU Sara's, who came from a world that was destroyed by the anti-monitor, is far more interesting in my opinion for a Lance-Sara dynamic. because on one side she's his daughter (looks like her and all that) but she's really not. And now I want to see this on screen, or at least as a fanfic.

[Carrie Ann]

If it is the Lazarus Pit, who did it? Nyssa, even though she seems pretty set in her grief? Malcolm as some sort of backup of his backup plan? Someone we don't know about yet? Ra's, for...some kind of reason?

 

If I had to guess right now, I'd say Malcolm, and that it was his plan all along for...some reason to be revealed later (in this scenario, Malcolm removed Sara's body immediately post-burial). It means that he didn't technically make his daughter a killer, which does honestly seem like a little OOC for the Malcolm they're trying to sell us this year, and once Zombie Sara comes back, I could totally picture him being like, "See? I am a great father after all." That's the kind of Malcolm-logic I believe. ('Oliver will defeat Ra's' is not.)

Edited March 8, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[Sakura12]

We don't know how the LP works, they can pretty do anything with it. Nyssa could've known about Sara's death right after it happened and put in the pits hours after she was buried and is keeping her somewhere while she regains her sanity. While also pretending she's dead for Ra's, he can't hurt Sara anymore if he thinks she's dead. Or Ra's knew about it and and can have Sara stashed somewhere for whatever reason. 

 

I would rather they go the AU route, that way it won't effect Laurel's BC like Guggenheim said it wouldn't. AU Sara would be completely different and have had different experiences. 

[foreverevolving]

We don't know how the LP works, they can pretty do anything with it. Nyssa could've known about Sara's death right after it happened and put in the pits hours after she was buried and is keeping her somewhere while she regains her sanity. While also pretending she's dead for Ra's, he can't hurt Sara anymore if he thinks she's dead. Or Ra's knew about it and and can have Sara stashed somewhere for whatever reason. 

 

 

ohh What if Nyssa and Malcolm are actually working together?!

Okay wow.. Apparently this is what having too much time on my hands does to me, I come up with crazy, totally random, plot-lines.

[catrox14]

My crack theory is that Thea and Nyssa put Sara in the LP.  Since Thea confessed to Nyssa that she killed Sara, Nyssa tells Thea she can make things right if she helps her resurrect Sara via the LP.

[KirkB]

Here's another wacky idea. Malcolm does know about the Lazarus Pits. He had Thea kill Sara as a test of his herbs, and after they buried her came by and dug her up. He sneaked into one of the Pits and dumped Sara in it, and is using a combination of the Pit's mind altering effects and his herbs he has brainwashed Sara and turned her into a weapon he can use on Ra's, Oliver, or whoever.

Edited March 8, 2015 by KirkB

[Kromm]

Here's another wacky idea. Malcolm does know about the Lazarus Pits. He had Thea kill Sara as a test of his herbs, and after they buried her came by and dug her up. He sneaked into one of the Pits and dumped Sara in it, and is using a combination of the Pit's mind altering effects and his herbs he has brainwashed Sara and turned her into a weapon he can use on Ra's, Oliver, or whoever.

Seems to me to be a logical way to create a Lady Shiva (if they don't mind de-Asianing that character).  

[foreverevolving]

Seems to me to be a logical way to create a Lady Shiva (if they don't mind de-Asianing that character).  

or White Canary if they want to make her evil. I rather they won't use her to bring in Shiva. I am becoming increasingly annoyed with characters being white washed.

[tv echo]

This is interesting - Matt Carter wants CL to return as a brand new character (to avoid continued comparisons with Laurel/BC), but the overwhelming majority of people voting in the online poll wants CL to return as Sara/Canary...

 

‘Arrow’ / ‘The Flash’ spin-off debate: Should Caity Lotz play Sara Lance, or whole new character?
Matt Carter  March 8, 2015
http://cartermatt.com/155838/arrow-the-flash-spin-off-debate-should-caity-lotz-play-sara-lance-or-whole-new-character/

Edited March 8, 2015 by tv echo

[Sakura12]

Laurel's still not that popular, she's being compared to Sara even though Sara's dead. Sara being back won't change that.  

[tv echo]

Note that Sara Lance is yet again referred to as the Black Canary, and also another reference to this season of Arrow being subpar...

 

411 Fact or Fiction Movies/TV: Will We Watch a Flash/Arrow Spinoff?
March 6, 2015 | Posted by Ben Piper
http://411mania.com/movies/411-fact-or-fiction-moviestv-will-we-watch-a-flasharrow-spinoff/

You’d be on board with another Flash/Arrow spinoff.

Steve Gustafson : FACT – As a fan of both shows, I’m definitely excited about this. Not just because it has two popular characters but that Brandon Routh (Ray Palmer/The Atom), Wentworth Miller (Leonard Snart/Captain Cold),Victor Garber (Martin Stein/Firestorm), and Caity Lotz (Sara Lance/Black Canary) are (rumored to be) coming along for the ride. For all the questionable things DC has done with their cinematic universe, their recent television track record has been solid. A superhero team-up show is something well within their capabilities and a bright star for DC. Sign me up!

Todd Vote : FACT – Though I am not sure what they have planned with the spinoff they are talking about. You have half a super-hero, a dead super hero, The Atom and so far, a singular villain in Captain Cold. I’ve enjoyed Arrow since season one, even if this season has taken a bit of a dip in quality. The Flash quickly became one of my favorite shows on TV. I love the idea of TV shows and movies sharing a universe. It was amusing back when there was a loose connection with Mad About You, Seinfeld and Friends. Now DC has a chance to go full on with their TV universe, and really have an opportunity to do something special. I’m all for expanding the DCTVU. Now if we can just get them to allow Supergirl to cross over with the CW shows, we will have it made.

Edited March 8, 2015 by tv echo

[Sakura12]

I still find it funny that not many people care about the ATOM's involvement in the spin off. 

 

I know people have said that they think Sara's involvement in this show will be in flashbacks. How does that make any sense?. Why would we see a hero team up of the ATOM and the other never before seen in live action heroes, then randomly show only flashbacks of Sara? None of those characters even know Sara.

 

I don't think the CW is the type of network to show a series like a comic book with each episode focusing on different characters, especially if it's a Team Up show, that requires a team of characters in one place at one time interacting with each other. As I think about I don't care about Laurel or how anything will effect her. I want our Sara to be alive and teaming up with this new team. Even if Sara's not the BC, she's still better than Laurel. I want to see how our Sara interacts with Professor Stein, Ray and whoever else they bring in. 

[Angel12d]

Yeah, they really dropped the ball with the ATOM character. I don't really see any buzz for him at all. That's probably because he's like a Phony Stark (I don't know who made up this name but it's hilarious and accurate so thank you) with no original qualities. They set him up to be an Oliver-lite only with a suit that was ripped off from Iron Man. Viewers need something different and interesting that sets them apart from what we have already. Ray doesn't have any of that. Yet. It could change once he's away from Arrow of course.

 

And the only reason I'd ever tune in to this spin-off is to find out how Sara comes back. I'm not interested in anything else. I guess I would be if the cast was more diverse and perhaps wasn't written by the Arrow/Flash EP's. 

Edited March 8, 2015 by Angel12d

[Sakura12]

They did drop the ball on Ray. They managed to introduce Sara pretty naturally and I know she had the connections to some of the characters, but they also managed to make her likable even with her now mandatory character stupidity arc. 

 

I am wary about the EP's involved with this show, so I'm hoping they get some decent writers to help out. 

[foreverevolving]

Well for all we know it is possible that the show will be mini series style, meaning that they will divide it into arcs- the first arc will be about Atom, than the next about Sara, and so on. or they'll do an episode about this character, next an episode about a different one and so forth.

which is why i think they can absolutely do Sara in flashbacks that way, if they go about divided arcs.

[tarotx]

They are calling the show a superhero team up and not superhero anthology Or what not. Why are people thinking collection of superhero stories? Nothing points to that with the "team up" hook that they are selling the story. They may go that route of course since a few comic books are that way but it seems to me they are selling the show as The fake DC avengers.

Arrow is the show with Narrative flashbacks. Sara and Nyssa are Arrow characters. Why tell their past story in a non Arrow SH collection show? How will a short story arc of their past be interesting to a GP audience? Look at Peggy Carter for example.

Edited March 8, 2015 by tarotx

[AyChihuahua]

So they would do a miniseries arc only in flashbacks about a dead character with no connection to the rest of the arcs?  It seems much, much more likely that she's there in present-day interacting with the other characters.

[Morrigan2575]

They are calling the show a superhero team up and not superhero anthology Or what not. Why are people thinking collection of superhero stories? Nothing points to that with the "team up" hook that they are selling the story. They may go that route of course since a few comic books are that way but it seems to me they are selling the show as The fake DC avengers.

Arrow is the show with Narrative flashbacks. Sara and Nyssa are Arrow characters. Why tell their past story in a non Arrow SH collection show? How will a short story arc of their past be interesting to a GP audience? Look at Peggy Carter for example.

I think they're going more for Justice League (and they could get away with it) rather than Avengers but I agree the Deadline article sold it as a team up so I'm pretty sure they're all alive in present time, Flarrow continuity and crossing over into other shows.

I also agree, Arrow is the one with flashbacks as part of the narrative. Flash has them but no where near as many nor as strict continuity. We've seen flashbacks to the day of the explosion, 5 years previous (Wells), 15 years ago (little Barry). I don't think there's any guarantee that this new show will have flashbacks as part of a definitive narrative, the way Arrow uses them.

[calliope1975]

Yeah, they really dropped the ball with the ATOM character. I don't really see any buzz for him at all. That's probably because he's like a Phony Stark (I don't know who made up this name but it's hilarious and accurate so thank you) with no original qualities. They set him up to be an Oliver-lite only with a suit that was ripped off from Iron Man. Viewers need something different and interesting that sets them apart from what we have already. Ray doesn't have any of that. Yet. It could change once he's away from Arrow of course.

 

And the only reason I'd ever tune in to this spin-off is to find out how Sara comes back. I'm not interested in anything else. I guess I would be if the cast was more diverse and perhaps wasn't written by the Arrow/Flash EP's. 

 

I think they missed the mark by not having him shrink. It would be different from anything we've seen before and beat Marvel to their shrinking hero. They already broke their no powers rule when Flash crossed over and with the seeming introduction of the LP. Because these peeps can't slow down or think ahead, they used Jean Loring as an Easter egg and then killed her off, thus robbing Ray Palmer of a part of his story. If they hadn't been so set on making RP a opposite OQ and had instead developed him as his own character (and perhaps integrated him more with the rest of the cast) there would have been a more positive reaction to him. I really think they just thought that because RP is in the comics and is Atom people will love him. Just because. It's the same problem they have with Laurel. 

 

As far as I'm concerned, Sara is the Black Canary. I just can't buy Laurel as ever being worthy of that title. Walter can throw a mask on and call himself Green Arrow but it doesn't make it so. 

[Sakura12]

I met Caity today and asked her if she knew if the show is picked up for a pilot or a series. She said nothing is set yet but she's pretty sure it will be picked up to series because of the crossover events. She called it a Team Up show too. She of course wouldn't say anything about her involvement. 

 

I got her autograph and Photo Op, she actually remembered my name when I went to take the photo. It was two hours later, but still. I did a fighting stance pose with her and she does have muscular arms. 

Edited March 8, 2015 by Sakura12

[Belinea]

I think they missed the mark by not having him shrink. 

 

They wanted to have their cake and eat it too. They wanted Arrow to remain somewhat grounded but still give the ATOM something. So they turned him into Iron Man. And opened themselves up to the comparison. Letting him shrink might take away from their new show and therefore they wanted to keep him the same size. 

But I think they don't see any problems with Ray himself. The only problem is that the people who watch for O/F hate him and the rest might find him slightly boring because up to this point he is only comedy relief and love interest. His own personality doesn't really shine through so people have nothing to connect to. This might be one of the reason why a standalone pilot wasn't considered. It might just not be interesting enough and it might just not work. I have a hard time imagining a guy the size of an ant fighting crime. I already have a hard time buying it in the Marvel trailer for Ant Man. 

[AyChihuahua]

 

Because these peeps can't slow down or think ahead, they used Jean Loring as an Easter egg and then killed her off, thus robbing Ray Palmer of a part of his story.

Jean Loring was Moira's defense lawyer.  She wasn't killed off.  She is, however, probably a bit too old for RP.

 

 

Walter can throw a mask on and call himself Green Arrow but it doesn't make it so.

Yes!

[Morrigan2575]

I met Caity today and asked her if she knew if the show is picked up for a pilot or a series. She said nothing is set yet but she's pretty sure it will be picked up to series because of the crossover events. She called it a Team Up show too. She of course wouldn't say anything about her involvement.

I got her autograph and Photo Op, she actually remembered my name when I went to take the photo. It was two hours later, but still. I did a fighting stance pose with her and she does have muscular arms.

Awesome, congrats on getting to me Caity

Because these peeps can't slow down or think ahead, they used Jean Loring as an Easter egg and then killed her off, thus robbing Ray Palmer of a part of his story

that's not exactly fair, they wanted and were planning on introducing Ted Kord, not Ray Palmer. That's why the name dropped Kord Industries several times in S1/S2. DC is the reason we have Ray Palmer/ATOM in S3 instead of Ted Kord/Blue Beetle. Edited March 8, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[calliope1975]

Jean Loring was Moira's defense lawyer.  She wasn't killed off.  She is, however, probably a bit too old for RP.

 

Ahh yes, you're right. I was thinking of the DA. 

[Delphi]

That was Kate Spencer aka Manhunter, though they did mention Jean and ray in early season one in a flashback. But it was more of a their away line about Ollie and Dinah's friends

[Starfish35]

The DA was Kate Spencer. But yes, I think they threw Jean Loring in as Moira's defense attorney before they had any idea Ray Palmer was going to be in season three.

MG did say in an interview before S3 started that they were going to address the connection between the two, although not in a romantic sense. But recently he said on his tumblr that he didn't know if that was still going to happen. He did say however that the idea had been to make Jean Anna's mother.

I think it makes it kind of interesting though, because unlike the other two shows, this show isn't going to start with any preset canon romantic pairing in mind. That might help in some aspects.

[tarotx]

The show could have easily given Laurel the Jean Loring story arc. Her tendencies

already fit. In fact they can still do it with her and Oliver. But if they had Laurel with Ray this year they could have sent her over to the Spin off. Heck they could have made Laurel both Jean Loring and Kate Spencer. If Ray was working on creating "Kate's" Manhunter suit. Plus she already had DLL's toxic relationship with Oliver.

Oh well there is always fan fiction. KC probably couldn't pull off either of those characters either Anyway.

It's just imo Sara was and even dead is the perfect TV Black Canary on Arrow or the Spin Off. And the Spin off's better without Laurel.

Edited March 8, 2015 by tarotx

[foreverevolving]

Wow! that was too predictable since my head canon/guess too is that Jean is Anna's mom or hunt.

Edited March 8, 2015 by foreverevolving

[Starfish35]

Since they have not addressed the issue on screen, I suppose it's possible that they might create a new Jean Loring for the show, and just say it was two different people who happened to have the same name. I hope they don't though. I like the idea of a show without predetermined comic book pairings.

[calliope1975]

I think it makes it kind of interesting though, because unlike the other two shows, this show isn't going to start with any preset canon romantic pairing in mind. That might help in some aspects.

 

Good point. With this set of writers, I think they're better off not writing romance and just keeping this new show about the team. They aren't very good with romantic pairings and often end up hurting the characters instead of strengthening them. 

 

I am a bit confused about one thing - there is a lot of press about this when it hasn't even officially been picked up yet. Is it being presumed that the CW is going to get first dibs? Where would they put it? Is anything getting canceled this year? I clearly have a lot of questions. 

[Morrigan2575]

I am a bit confused about one thing - there is a lot of press about this when it hasn't even officially been picked up yet. Is it being presumed that the CW is going to get first dibs? Where would they put it? Is anything getting canceled this year? I clearly have a lot of questions.

it's being developed for the cw.

http://deadline.com/2015/02/arrow-flash-spin-off-cw-new-superhero-series-1201382466/

EXCLUSIVE: DC Comics superheroes are uniting in a potential new drama series at the CW, from hits Arrow and The Flash that will feature several fan-favorite recurring actors/characters from both shows. I have learned that the network has teamed with Arrow creators Greg Berlanti, Andrew Kreisberg and Marc Guggenheim for a project eyed for next season toplined by Brandon Routh, Victor Garber, Wentworth Miller and Caity Lotz.

The rest of your questions are also addressed in the deadline article. Edited March 8, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Sakura12]

The CW has it, according to CL it hasn't been set as a picked up yet, it's considered in development. She said she pretty sure it will get a series because DC wants to build a shared universe between their tv shows. 

Edited March 8, 2015 by Sakura12

[Kromm]

I met Caity today and asked her if she knew if the show is picked up for a pilot or a series. She said nothing is set yet but she's pretty sure it will be picked up to series because of the crossover events. She called it a Team Up show too. She of course wouldn't say anything about her involvement. 

 

I got her autograph and Photo Op, she actually remembered my name when I went to take the photo. It was two hours later, but still. I did a fighting stance pose with her and she does have muscular arms. 

Hmm.  Did you joke with her about her being more popular than anyone still alive on that show? (it would be just mean to have targeted ‎Katie Cassidy probably)

[dtissagirl]

TV line posted casting breakdowns for three more characters for the spinoff, as well as their guesses:

http://tvline.com/2015/03/08/arrow-flash-spinoff-series-cast-rip-hunter-fury/

2 characters of color, FINALLY.

[wonderwall]

TV line posted casting breakdowns for three more characters for the spinoff, as well as their guesses:

http://tvline.com/2015/03/08/arrow-flash-spinoff-series-cast-rip-hunter-fury/

2 characters of color, FINALLY.

 

Don't jynx it. They might totally whitewash these characters like they did with Sandra and Ra's... smh

[Trini]

Interesting, although, there's already a Static show in development.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Trini

[Morrigan2575]

First one sounds like Booster Gold to me...weren't these guys working on a Booster Gold show for syfy?

If the last one is Static Shock i'm so in. Used to watch that cartoon all the time it was great.

[tarotx]

Well clearly they are doing time travel here so we'll see if this team can handle it. Scarey stuff but the discriptions sound interesting.

Edited March 9, 2015 by tarotx

[Sakura12]

Those actually sound interesting and I'm glad they are not all white. 

[Kromm]

Interesting, although, there's already a Static show in development.

Which could be why it's possibly Black Lightning?

 

The problem I guess is that the two heroes' powersets are too similar (nevermind Black Vulcan, who literally WAS a Black Lightning retread to get around DC locking out use of the character for The Superfriends show).

[strikera0]

First one sounds like Booster Gold to me...weren't these guys working on a Booster Gold show for syfy?

 

I'm not so sure about Booster Gold. Didn't they already have a live-action version of him on Smallville?

[tennisgurl]

Yeah, Booster-Gold showed up right near the end of Smallville. I don`t remember much about it (I gave up on the show, then came back to see how it ended), and I remember it being kind of weird. Like, Superman's journey is almost over...now here`s Booster-Gold! Maybe it wasnt quite like that though, its been awhile.

 

I am actually tentatively excited about this news. Tentatively.