S01.E08: The Lyon's Roar

[dirtypop90]

The black community is not anti intellectual. Black folks are anti forgetting where you came from. Get all the education you want, but use it for the good of your people. That means don't run off to the Ivy League, get a good job, and go live in a white neighborhood and marry a white person just to show you "made it."

 

 

 

That doesn't apply to andre because he came back to his family and his community after getting his degrees. I'm sure the entire lyon family lives in white neighborhoods. I'm not seeing how Andre qualifies as a "sell out," but the rest don't, unless it has to do with education. Him choosing books over music. I don't think lucious's treatment of andre would be any different if he had a black wife.

 

I also don't think people would think Andre was a sellout, if he chose say basketball/football over music, and had a non-black wife.

Edited February 27, 2015 by dirtypop90

[kpw801]

What I think is that Anika would not give Lucious a second look if he were not the head of a record label.  The way she looks down her nose at Cookie is sooner or later going to come out as the same type of superiority she feels for Lucious.  I think he has a certain forbidden bad boy vibe going on for her but if she knew the truth about him, the 4 murders Bunkie brought up or the fact that he murdered Bunkie too, she would not be able to deal with it.  She loved showing off her multi lingual abilities in front of Cookie at some point and it might be sooner rather than later, she is going to drop the mask and show how much better she thinks she is than Lucious - she thinks she is doing him a favor by allowing him to be her man.  I think Cookie would have loved and still to a certain degree loves Lu regardless - they are both murderers now but nobody knows that right now.  Cookie's sister knows about that hit and Vernon and Andre know about Bunkie but Anika has no clue.

 

She also doesn't realize that just like he used her influence to get her Dad to sign off on that health thing, he would kill her in two shakes of a lamb's tail if she got in the way of his empire/family.  The s**t will hit the fan when he finds out about Baretti.

Edited February 27, 2015 by kpw801

[ridethemaverick]

That doesn't apply to andre because he came back to his family and his community after getting his degrees. I'm sure the entire lyon family lives in white neighborhoods. I'm not seeing how Andre qualifies as a "sell out," but the rest don't, unless it has to do with education. Him choosing books over music. I don't think lucious's treatment of andre would be any different if he had a black wife.

I also don't think people would think Andre was a sellout, if he chose say basketball/football over music, and had a non-black wife.

My comment was general but wrt Andre, yes he came back to his family, but with a white woman in tow. For Luscious, that clearly sent a message.

We're all speculating on what that message was, exactly, but I definitely don't think Luscious is mad that Andre went to school. I think he sees Andre as a disappointment because his education doesn't serve LUSCIOUS in the way he wants it to. Was it last week when he snapped on Andre for not getting funding? I'm sure he was thinking ok, you have that business degree and still can't handle your damn business. If you were going to choose a different path, at least make it something useful. I think Luscious just sees Andre as useless to him, because Luscious is a narcissist.

Lee Daniels is pushing this agenda about the black community being more homophobic than any other and that really irks me but I can somewhat deal with it. But if he really is trying to push the idea that black folks are anti intellectual? I'm out. It's untrue and it's been thoroughly debunked.

Eta: I think Luscious would have a problem with Andre's white wife no matter what his profession.

Edited February 27, 2015 by ridethemaverick

[Timetoread]

I just find it mighty funny that people stand behind all the unproven hateful ish lucious says to andre but lucious him over the coals for everything else. I think there's a disturbing tread of anti-intellectualism in the black community that Lee Daniels is poking at.

 

Nothing about andre says uncle tom. He's trying to run a black music label, was president of the black grad students in school, and does community outreach according to his bio on the website. And he hasn't sad a bad word about black people, or even his family on the show. People are making a lot of assumptions about andre with zero facts to back them up. His degrees and a white wife doesn't make him an uncle tom. If he was one, he wouldn't want anything to do with black people or black culture. 

 

The acceptance Andre is trying to gain is from Lucious, not white people.

 

Actually Andre said it himself: "I just want them to accept me." To which Lucius hollered, "They will never accept your black ass!"  And I don't think anybody (or at least most and certainly not me) stands behind the blown-out-of-proportion stuff that comes out of Lucius' mouth, but I think many of us understand his drift while at the same time disagreeing with both his conclusions and his actions. 

 

There ARE many black males who date/marry white women as a come up.  But there are also a whole lot who marry who they fell in love with and she just happened to be white.  We are just learning about Andre and the whole of his motivations.  I don't know why he married Ronda, but as far as I can see (putting up with his bipolar self and being talked into all manner of crap) she married HIM out of love.  I am waiting to be enlightened on their love story or lack thereof.

That doesn't apply to andre because he came back to his family and his community after getting his degrees.

 

Yeah but I'd be willing to bet that Andre came back to his father's black company (not the community though) because his father is a zillionaire and having the last name Lyon gave him favor that he might not get elsewhere. 

We're all speculating on what that message was, exactly, but I definitely don't think Luscious is mad that Andre went to school. I think he sees Andre as a disappointment because his education doesn't serve LUSCIOUS in the way he wants it to. Was it last week when he snapped on Andre for not getting funding? I'm sure he was thinking ok, you have that business degree and still can't handle your damn business. If you were going to choose a different path, at least make it something useful. I think Luscious just sees Andre as useless to him, because Luscious is a narcissist.

Lee Daniels is pushing this agenda about the black community being more homophobic than any other and that really irks me but I can somewhat deal with it. But if he really is trying to push the idea that black folks are anti intellectual? I'm out. It's untrue and it's been thoroughly debunked.

 

I don't think Lucius considers Andre useless, he is on the board, the CFO and his right hand (next to Vernon).  Lu doesn't think Andre is nothing, he is disappointed that Andre isn't MORE.  I'm sure papa Lew paid for the fancy education and all those things, but Andre doesn't see his vision.  I've seen several instances where Lew flat out tests Andre.  I think if Andre "got" where he is coming from, he'd be more than happy to leave it to his brilliant, first born son.  But his son seems to have forgotten or rejected where he came from and that troubles his father to no end.

 

ETA: I agree that if this show becomes Lee Daniel's platform to classify black people as anti-intellectual, paranoid bigots - I'm out too.  Love Taraji but that's more than I will stand.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Timetoread

[wayne67]

I thought Andre was playing Russian Roulette with himself...

 

I just rewatched that scene and Andre squeezes the trigger and there's a click of the empty barrel/cartridge and I figured that's what was going on.

 

He was playing dice with his life so to speak hence his cry of rage and relief afterwards because part of him wants to die because he feels so adrift but there's a stubborn part clinging to life.

 

Or maybe it's just me ?

Edited February 27, 2015 by wayne67

[catalogrrr]

That close up of Vernon with a tear in his eye as Jamal was coming out was perfection. Vernon clearly loves all three of the Lyon sons. Andre, Cookie (naturally) and Hakeem cheering Jamal on was icing on the cake.

Edited February 28, 2015 by catalogrrr

[dirtypop90]

Actually Andre said it himself: "I just want them to accept me." To which Lucius hollered, "They will never accept your black ass!" And I don't think anybody (or at least most and certainly not me) stands behind the blown-out-of-proportion stuff that comes out of Lucius' mouth, but I think many of us understand his drift while at the same time disagreeing with both his conclusions and his actions.

There ARE many black males who date/marry white women as a come up. But there are also a whole lot who marry who they fell in love with and she just happened to be white. We are just learning about Andre and the whole of his motivations. I don't know why he married Ronda, but as far as I can see (putting up with his bipolar self and being talked into all manner of crap) she married HIM out of love. I am waiting to be enlightened on their love story or lack thereof.

Yeah but I'd be willing to bet that Andre came back to his father's black company (not the community though) because his father is a zillionaire and having the last name Lyon gave him favor.

I don't think Lucius considers Andre useless, he is on the board, the CFO and his right hand (next to Vernon). Lu doesn't think Andre is nothing, he is disappointed that Andre isn't MORE. I'm sure papa Lew paid for the fancy education and all those things, but Andre doesn't see his vision. .

Andre never said "I just want them to accept me" he said he wanted acceptance and luscious took that to mean from white folks. Andre is clearly looking for acceptance from a black man. When he was speaking to Vernon he said he couldn't believe they didn't invite him to sing in the booth. He wants acceptance from his black family but he can't get it because he's not a musician so they cast him aside.

Lee Daniels and trai Byers have made it clear than Andre and Rhonda truly care for each other. Rhonda is not just a trophy to him and Andre is not just a come up for her. If anything that description seems to better fit Anika and luscious.

I fail to see what "vision" Hakeem has but he has daddy's full support

In the pilot Andre and lucious discuss how Andre helped him build empire while he was in school. Andre has always been helping luscious for empire so he didn't just come back because the company was successful

I don't think lee Daniels is trying to classify all black people as anything but the Lyons family clearly values musical talent over all else

Edited February 27, 2015 by dirtypop90

[Timetoread]

I thought Andre was playing Russian Roulette with himself...

 

I just rewatched that scene and Andre squeezes the trigger and there's a click of the empty barrel/cartridge and I figured that's what was going on.

 

He was playing dice with his life so to speak hence his cry of rage and relief afterwards because part of him wants to die because he feels so adrift but there's a stubborn part clinging to life.

 

Or maybe it's just me ?

You need revolver for RR. THere wasnt a bullet in the chamber. It did seem however if he was seeing if he could actually pull that trigger.

[Timetoread]

Andre never said "I just want them to accept me" he said he wanted acceptance and luscious took that to mean from white folks. Andre is clearly looking for acceptance from a black man. When he was speaking to Vernon he said he couldn't believe they didn't invite him to sing in the booth. He wants acceptance from his black family but he can't get it because he's not a musician so they cast him aside.

Lee Daniels and trai Byers have made it clear than Andre and Rhonda truly care for each other. Rhonda is not just a trophy to him and Andre is not just a come up for her. If anything that description seems to better fit Anika and luscious.

I fail to see what "vision" Hakeem has but he has daddy's full support

In the pilot Andre and lucious discuss how Andre helped him build empire while he was in school. Andre has always been helping luscious for empire so he didn't just come back because the company was successful

I don't think lee Daniels is trying to classify all black people as anything but the Lyons family clearly values musical talent over all else

For the record the quote was "You hate me because I wanted to be accepted." Hey listen if you like Andre that's fine. He's so far my least favorite for reasons that have nothing to do with Lucius. i'm not set in my opinion though. Maybe if they'll show him do something other than scheme and manipulate I might come around. I do think that it is funny to see a twist on family pressure. Usually it is education at the expense of talent or artisticness.

[teezy]

Andre never said "I just want them to accept me" he said he wanted acceptance and luscious took that to mean from white folks. Andre is clearly looking for acceptance from a black man. When he was speaking to Vernon he said he couldn't believe they didn't invite him to sing in the booth. He wants acceptance from his black family but he can't get it because he's not a musician so they cast him aside.

Lee Daniels and trai Byers have made it clear than Andre and Rhonda truly care for each other. Rhonda is not just a trophy to him and Andre is not just a come up for her. If anything that description seems to better fit Anika and luscious.

I fail to see what "vision" Hakeem has but he has daddy's full support

In the pilot Andre and lucious discuss how Andre helped him build empire while he was in school. Andre has always been helping luscious for empire so he didn't just come back because the company was successful

I don't think lee Daniels is trying to classify all black people as anything but the Lyons family clearly values musical talent over all else

im sorry but i just dont see Rhonda seems like an opportunist and the way she has constantly tried to pit Andre against his family me dont like her.

 

Everything about her screams stereotype of white goldddigger trying to leech off rich alck man and like i said before she wouldnt look twice at Andre if he was a regualr black guy.

[memememe76]

Even if Rhonda is trying to separate Andre from his family, she's not the only one. So is Vernon. And I'm to the point where whatever Vernon does and thinks, I agree. 

 

Besides, why shouldn't she be doing this? Luscious clearly pays more attention to Hakeem and Jamal. Rhonda's not blind both Luscious and Cookie's, uhm, indifference to her. And given her knowledge of Andre's mental issues, she may hold quite a bit of resentment to the family's ignorance. 

[lonestar]

After Andre and Rhonda's dinner, I couldn't help hearing Taraji singing, "Its Hard out Here for a Pimp!"

[gik910]

 

im sorry but i just dont see Rhonda seems like an opportunist and the way she has constantly tried to pit Andre against his family me dont like her.

 

When did Rhonda try to pit Andre against his family- without his directive?  Luscious basically told the boys all right one of you is getting control of the Empire so have at it. Show me who wants it more ( but told Andre he has no soul, told Jamal he can't because he is gay, and seemed to put his money on Hakeem. A teenager with mommy issues.)  The only time Rhonda did something actively was when she called Andre to her shoot, to show him Tianna & her girlfriend, and then post the pictures.  Which Andre was fully aware of.  She was the one who hesitated when Andre wanted to send those idiots over to Jamals' studio session.

 

All of her actions have been that of a supportive wife.  They may have a non-traditional marriage that others don't understand, but everything else shows a woman who loves her husband, understand his needs, is aware of and actively trying to help him with his mental health, and fully has his back when his own family (the people that should already know about stuff like that- and at least it seems Vernon does) constantly put him on the outside. Because he is not a musician.  The way Andre is treated did not happen over night- and if my husbands father used him like that, you can be damn sure I'd work my ass off to make sure my husband got his piece.  Hell, I'd burn the place to the ground.  

 

As usual, loved Cookie in this episode, especially with Hakeem!  The coming out was fantastic - loved the song.  I also don't buy for a second that the Legacy project is dead.  Way to much of a show stopper for Lu to ignore- the press around it alone would be a gold mine.  He can bitch all he wants to about the truth and the music, but the fact is you do not build an empire without the business (or profit) behind it.  

Edited February 28, 2015 by gik910

[Kendall]

This particular episode is the drawback to the limited episodes for a season. Everything that I've wanted to see, happened, but at the speed of light. Everything was in overdrive and it didn't feel like any of the would be significant beats were allowed to play out and breathe.

 

The mending of Hakeem and Cookie's relationship should not have been able to be resolved within the timeframe of a cigarette break for everyone that was tossed out of the studio. The conversation being started and the reason shouted out, yes, but I can't believe there wasn't any explanation from Cookie on what she tried to do from behind bars. Or, from Hakeem and how he felt about trying to talk to her or why he refused to talk to her for 17 years. And especially there should've been some answers coming from Lucious on why he didn't insist that somebody take them kids to go see Cookie or that Bunkie, Cookie's cousin, never came back from prison with a reasonable explanation from Cookie as to why she isn't contacting their sons.

 

Jamal went from an interview, to a pound to a dinner date to spilling his guts to a stranger and the guy became the wind beneath his wings in about ten minutes!

 

Now, regarding Andre: I totally buy Lucious giving him eternal side eye when he brought Rhonda home. Although, I would've also like to have seen some foreshadowing about those feelings on his marriage prior to this episode.

 

However, Lucious' belief that Andre only wants to be a Lyon in name and money didn't start with Rhonda. She was just the nail in the coffin.

 

I believe it started when Lucious' career really started to take off and more people knew who Andre's father was. When Lucious started making that money, he probably sent Andre to private schools with a majority of white children that had parents who were okay with Andre, the sweet little boy, but not his gangster rappin' father and locked up convict mother.

 

Andre started separating himself from Lucious and especially Cookie years ago. Both Lucious and Cookie did what they did so their kids could have a better life, as most parents do, but neither one of them would want or expect that those kids would turn around and think that they themselves are better than their parents.

 

Andre tolerates Lucious because he wants that company, he loves him because he is his father, but I don't buy that he respects or even likes Lucious. He does believe that his education, polish and learned social graces makes him better than Lucious, his brothers and most definitely, Cookie. He believes that he is smarter than them all, but he found out.

 

Having said all that, I was on the edge of my seat when he had that gun to his head.

[Dusty]

 

Everything about her screams stereotype of white goldddigger trying to leech off rich alck man and like i said before she wouldnt look twice at Andre if he was a regualr black guy.

 

When this show first started I was in the same boat.  I thought she was going to be the stereotypical gold digger but I feel like the show has shown me different.    Honestly, if I was Rhonda and all I wanted to do was get into an Ivy League school to catch myself a rich man then I'm pretty sure I could find someone easier to deal with than Andre.  The minute his bipolar disorder presented itself I would've been like NOPE.  That would not be a complication I would want in my life if all I was looking to do was to marry rich.

 

gik910 Pretty much said all I was going to say.

[gik910]

 

Andre tolerates Lucious because he wants that company, he loves him because he is his father, but I don't buy that he respects or even likes Lucious. He does believe that his education, polish and learned social graces makes him better than Lucious, his brothers and most definitely, Cookie. He believes that he is smarter than them all, but he found out.

To be fair, there really is not much to like or respect about Luscious as he is presented now.  He let his wife rot in prison (and then divorced her), has let his eldest son cover for him on numerous occasions while berating his perceived lack if talent, his relationship with Jamal can speak for itself, and he is trying to mold Hakeem into a version of himself but ignoring how not having his mother around has effected his development, oh and he is a murderer.  If I were Andre- I would run to someone who was nothing like my family as well. 

 

I think the thing that really bugs is that Luscious has moments where I can see the man underneath the superstar.  Like when he intervened with Cookie and Hakeem.  But Andre does not experience those moments.  As the CFO, he is tasked with keeping the dream financially afloat, which will always put him at odds with "the music" in Lu's eyes.  (Which again is such bullshit because you do not build an empire like that without making sound financial decisions.)

 

 

Honestly, if I was Rhonda and all I wanted to do was get into an Ivy League school to catch myself a rich man then I'm pretty sure I could find someone easier to deal with than Andre.  The minute his bipolar disorder presented itself I would've been like NOPE.  That would not be a complication I would want in my life if all I was looking to do was to marry rich.

 

RIght!?!?! Andre is not exactly a puppy dog or easy to handle and Rhoda does not seem like the type of woman that is all about the leisure life.  From what they have show us so far, she works hard herself.  

[dirtypop90]

I believe it started when Lucious' career really started to take off and more people knew who Andre's father was. When Lucious started making that money, he probably sent Andre to private schools with a majority of white children that had parents who were okay with Andre, the sweet little boy, but not his gangster rappin' father and locked up convict mother.

Andre started separating himself from Lucious and especially Cookie years ago. Both Lucious and Cookie did what they did so their kids could have a better life, as most parents do, but neither one of them would want or expect that those kids would turn around and think that they themselves are better than their parents.

Andre tolerates Lucious because he wants that company, he loves him because he is his father, but I don't buy that he respects or even likes Lucious. He does believe that his education, polish and learned social graces makes him better than Lucious, his brothers and most definitely, Cookie. He believes that he is smarter than them all, but he found out.

 

Lucious discussed how Andre continued to help the family business when he was at Penn. He taught Lucious things he was learning while at school according the pilot. There has been nothing indicating Andre ever separated himself from his family, in fact, we have heard the opposite.  There's also been nothing indicating Andre thinks he's better than anybody. He simply thinks he's the most fit because he's literally been helping Lucious with the business since he began his studies. They went over this in the pilot. I feel like I've missed something, has Andre made one disparaging remark about any of his family members that would lead people to think he thinks he's better than them? Because that's a mighty assumption to make.

 

And why would anyone respect or like lucious? Jamal doesn't either.

Edited February 28, 2015 by dirtypop90

[scruffy73]

I don't think Andre thinks he's better than Lucious at all.  I don't think he believes he is better than his brothers.  I just think he believes he is more qualified to run the business that is Empire than his brothers and he is right. The problem is that Lucious doesn't really see "business" when he thinks about Empire; he thinks "music" and Andre doesn't seem to care about the music.  Not the way everyone else does. 

 

Shallow: I don't know where someone was talking about how sexy the actor that plays Andre is but...cosign.  Lawdhammercy!  That dude is pretty.  He has funny little Chiclet teeth but his resting face is beautiful.

[Eolivet]

Andre has show NO loyalty, love or protection toward his little brothers.  His very first lines in the series showed a scheming, hateful brother.  His interest in Empire is HIS interest (as in money) in Empire.  He has no passion for the music or the people -even the ones who are family -, or the industry.  He just wants to be the boss.  Period.  I feel that Lucius has sensed this for a long time and I think that board meeting came across to Lucius as witnessing his son ready to carve up his corpse for the reward.  He saw a son who simply can't even wait for him to die.  Andre may be bipolar, but he is also a cold manipulator.  Another son in Lucius' own image.  And I don't think Lucius doesn't like Ronda because she is white per se but because she represents a black man who eschews his own race thinking that it makes him better. Lucius at his heart is that kid who came from the ghetto and made himself a king amongst armies of the "the man" who would see him destroyed.  Andre, to Lucius, represents "the man".  He fears that with Andre at the helm things would go the way of Peretti.  Andre's breakdown however was heart shattering and I screamed when he pulled out that gun.  I began to wonder if there will be a twist that out of ALL three boys, Andre actually is the MOST talented.  I understand that Trai can sing.  Maybe Lucius is right that he straight turned his back on art because he looks down on it, but not because he doesn't possess it.

While I'm pissing people off, I am going to say that I don't understand what seems to be a one-sided view against Ronda.  So because they have a supposed open marriage (which right now I'm not so sure was openness as opposed to her going along to appease/keep her husband), she is now deserving of any and all mistreatment and has no right to object to the use of her own body?  She can't say no because she once said yes?  I can't get with that.  Andre is a scumbag for even asking his wife (regardless of their level of kink) to sleep with somebody solely to get a vote in the boardroom.  That is indeed prostitution.

 

I'm so glad you wrote this, because Andre is by far, my least favorite character on the show. I don't find him sympathetic or complex. As you've brilliantly pointed out, he's done nothing but scheme against his family, or if he does show them any loyalty, I feel like he's keeping score in his head (like when he covered for Lucious). I think I really don't like him because I feel he sees himself as a perpetual victim: everyone has wronged him, from Lucious to Cookie to Jamal to Hakeem. I understand not getting along with one's father, but he doesn't seem to get along with anyone -- he's just there to scheme, break them up, make them hate each other and I guess profit. He'd be a great Iago of the piece, an excellent villain if I wasn't being told I should feel sorry for him because of his medical condition. He needs to fish or cut bait: learn to love at least one person in his immediate family and attempt to make peace with it or just leave the family business entirely. But his scheming to get the company and complaining about being underappreciated rings so false when his position at the company is seemingly due to nepotism. His father doesn't owe him the temporary CEO job either -- it's that whole Nathaniel Jessup "Sleep under the very blanket of freedom I provide and then question the manner in which I provide it."

 

Don't like things at Empire, Andre? The door is over there. You too, Rhonda.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Eolivet

[JellyFishQueen]

I kinda found this show to be a little sexist with the women characters.

[Grace19]

before I comment about Andre I want to state that he is one of my favorite characters on this show. he is flawed in a lot of ways and that makes him interesting. i am also not an American, i watch this show on the Internet so regardless of how the African American community feels about a black man that married outside his race. i believe that there were some truth in what luscious said about Andre.

luscious might be the villain of this story and unlikeable, but I always pay close attention to what he says because there are grains of truth in whatever he says. from the first scene Andre had with his brothers he has been shown to not care about them, he has worked hard to destabilize his family all in the name to take his fathers company that he had every right to give it to whomever he wants to. Andre has been shown to be ashamed of his mother and reject her. I don't even believes he loves Rhonda, when his mother asked why he married her, his answered that it was because she was brilliant not because he loves her. IMO i think she is just a means to an end for him

we've not seen much of Andre's back story but I wouldn't be surprised if all his friends were white and he married Rhonda because she was white, he acts like all his family were beneath him. i think luscious knows a lot about his sons though he tries to manipulate them. I think if his father wasn't rich that once he left collage that non of his family would have seen him again, he is here for the money and position.

and blaming luscious for Andre's actions because he was responsible for pitting his sons against each other for the company doesn't work because we don't see Hakeem and Jamal trying to work against any of their brothers, Andre choose to work against his family.

that being said, I still love him and felt for him the most in this episode, I hope to see him try to build a relationship with his brothers and mother. I would love for the family to come together and become an unstoppable force.

I've always had a soft spot for Hakeem and ironically he is the one with the biggest heart in that family and seems like he values his family the most, Luscious might be just right that Hakeem is more like Cookie. wouldn't it be funny if years into the future Hakeem still turns out to be the one best suited to run the company? making Luscious right in choosing him.

please show let that adorable girl be Jamal's daughter, I want her to stay.

I love Cookie but she was very rude to Camilla even if she was right about her, she had no right to respond like that to her, she didn't even shake her hands when she Hakeem introduced her to him.

I love every character on this show, yes even Luscious. this is the best show on TV for me now.

[Happytobehere]

I don't even believes he loves Rhonda, when his mother asked why he married her, his answered that it was because she was brilliant not because he loves her. IMO i think she is just a means to an end for him.

I forgot about that. That was a telling statement because you're right it does indicate that Andre's love for Rhonda is rooted in how she serves his agenda and not her for the person she is. I have said before that Rhonda and Andre remind me of Macbeth and Lady Macbeth. If they continue in this vein, Rhonda will be destroyed and discarded long before Andre gets his comeuppance.

[wayne67]

I'm confused...

 

Lucious pitted his sons against each other for control over his company... and then he gets pissy when one of his sons tries to show his actual skills by organising a relatively benign corporate takeover. When he told them to fight it out for a multimillion business empire did he want them to play nice ?

 

Andre has put his whole life on the line by providing an alibi for his father for a murder he committed and Vernon provided a fall guy for Binky's murder and yet Lucious treats these people as if they're pests because they're trying to take care of his messes.

 

If Andre thought he was better than any of these people he would have just got another CFO position at another company. I can't blame him for not holding his parents in high regard, his mother ordered a hit and sold drugs and makes scenes at business meetings. His father is a gigantic hypocrite concerned only with his own image.

 

Lucious was the one trying to placate the white media. Andre isn't the only one that's sold out to the "white man".

 

Lucious murdered Binky, Andre's actual father figure (supposedly) Lucious has no right to claim the moral high ground on anything.

 

If I was Andre and I was being this sidelined by my own family, I'd get a new job and detonate the business right under my selfish douchebag father and be done with it. Reveal the fraud and Lucious's medical condition and have the Empire crumble in his father's face then reveal that the alibi he gave for his father was false and have Lucious spend his last days paying for killing his best friend.

Edited March 1, 2015 by wayne67

[wanderingstar]

I re-watched the episode today, and that last scene of Cookie in jail singing "You're So Beautiful" is just so heartbreaking. It really brings home what's a stake for Cookie as she tries to catch up on all the time she's lost with her family.

 

That close up of Vernon with a tear in his eye as Jamal was coming out was perfection. Vernon clearly loves all three of the Lyon sons. Andre, Cookie (naturally) and Hakeem cheering Jamal on was icing on the cake.

Yes! I loved that so much. The amazing support Jamal was getting from his family - and the crowd in general - just makes me laugh at Lucious' bitchface through the whole thing.

[Eolivet]

I can't blame him for not holding his parents in high regard, his mother ordered a hit and sold drugs and makes scenes at business meetings. His father is a gigantic hypocrite concerned only with his own image.

 

Fair enough. But how have Jamal and Hakeem personally wronged Andre, to the point where he arranged people with guns to rough up Jamal while Andre's wife was gleefully outing Hakeem's girlfriend? I can completely understand Andre not liking Lucious or Cookie, but what have his brothers ever done to him? This is why I feel he acts like a perpetual victim, even when he isn't, and he gets absolutely no sympathy from me.

 

And I would like nothing better for him to quit Empire, go with Boo-Boo Kitty to Beretti's and try to destroy his father's family business through old-fashioned, ruthless corporate warfare, not by using his brothers as collateral damage to get back at daddy and advance himself.

[wayne67]

Fair enough. But how have Jamal and Hakeem personally wronged Andre, to the point where he arranged people with guns to rough up Jamal while Andre's wife was gleefully outing Hakeem's girlfriend? I can completely understand Andre not liking Lucious or Cookie, but what have his brothers ever done to him? This is why I feel he acts like a perpetual victim, even when he isn't, and he gets absolutely no sympathy from me.

 

And I would like nothing better for him to quit Empire, go with Boo-Boo Kitty to Beretti's and try to destroy his father's family business through old-fashioned, ruthless corporate warfare, not by using his brothers as collateral damage to get back at daddy and advance himself.

 

To  be fair... Andre thought Jamal's posse was a bunch of wannabe gangstas who didn't have the stones to do anything serious. Or at least that's what he told his wife who I assume he tells more or less everything based on what we've seen.

 

Andre is following his father's example where he's pitting the two musicians against each other to see who is more worthy of the prize of the empire meanwhile ignoring the only son with actual qualifications to run a business himself. He's a bit more ruthless about it but he's learned from the terrible example of Lucious who uses his check book like a leash on Jamal to keep him in line and disapproval on Andre. Hakeem gets no consequence for public urination, undermining the family name and dissing the president for being a sell out.

 

I'm not saying Andre is guiltless, he is showing a sort of reckless disregard for the emotions of his family but... on the other hand they don't seem to care at all about him except as a convenient way to get money out from under the IPO stringent scrutiny so I can't exactly cry too many tears for them getting caught in the crossfires of the machinations that Lucious himself set in motion.

 

If Lucious wanted to pick a successor based on merit, Andre is the only person that is really qualified but he's more interested in granting the keys to the kingdom to those with musical talent which for the moment excludes Andre.

 

Unless Andre fights dirty then he has no chance of being the head of the company and will probably be stuck working under his younger artistic brothers.

[loveigniting]

I don't think the plan with Jamal with was the smartest precisely because Andre didn't control and arrange the variables that could go wrong. He wanted those dudes that were hanging out with Hakeem to go to Jamal's studio and scare him but he wasn't controlling the situation, which ofc escalated. This is one of those reasonable person things they do in law. Didn't Andre think that those dudes would have pulled a gun? It doesn't make the action better but ehhh, I don't think he's the worst ever for that tbh. I would think it was far worse if he had actively arranged people to go to Jamal and if he told them to wave guns as a threat *shrugs* 

 

IDK I like Andre. I don't mind that he goes too far in trying to get his prize that he uses his brothers as pawns. I like unlikeable characters who are damaged in some way. It's always nice to see the characters who fight through adversity and victimization but on the other side of the coin, the characters who are damaged by dysfunction in some way, especially parental dysfunction, and then they act out their dysfunction are fascinating to me on a whole 'nother level.

 

Andre's relationship with his brothers is very hard for me to decipher because all we see is distance and they don't have a lot of scenes together. Does he resent his brothers? Does he love them? I can't rightly say.

Edited March 1, 2015 by loveigniting

[Rae Spellman]

 

If Andre thought he was better than any of these people he would have just got another CFO position at another company.

 

As a black man in his late twenties? As the son of an ex-con? As someone who isn't always med compliant? Without Vernon offering whatever support Vernon offers? 

 

According to Google, the average age of a Fortune 500 CFO is 51 or 52. Of course there are exceptions. There's a big difference between thinking you're better than your family and thinking that you're amazing enough to become CFO of a billion dollar company before age 30 without nepotism.

 

Sure Andre could get a great job at plenty of other companies if he really wanted to be far away from his family. And, it's possible to be ashamed of an ex-con for a mother, or any other family member without thinking you're better than said family member.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CofCinci]

I kinda found this show to be a little sexist with the women characters.

How so?  I don't see any of the women on this series in traditional gender roles.  Cookie is clearly a very skilled producer and brilliant in business.  You rarely see women selling drugs in the movies/television.  Rhonda balances a career and caring for a mentally ill husband.  Her marriage with Andre is far from traditional.  Boo Boo Kitty is career-focused.  Porcia isn't a church mouse and Becky is a big girl having fun.

[Kendall]

1. To be fair, there really is not much to like or respect about Luscious as he is presented now.  He let his wife rot in prison (and then divorced her), has let his eldest son cover for him on numerous occasions while berating his perceived lack if talent, his relationship with Jamal can speak for itself, and he is trying to mold Hakeem into a version of himself but ignoring how not having his mother around has effected his development, oh and he is a murderer.  If I were Andre- I would run to someone who was nothing like my family as well. 

 

 

 

2. Lucious discussed how Andre continued to help the family business when he was at Penn. He taught Lucious things he was learning while at school according the pilot. There has been nothing indicating Andre ever separated himself from his family, in fact, we have heard the opposite.  There's also been nothing indicating Andre thinks he's better than anybody. He simply thinks he's the most fit because he's literally been helping Lucious with the business since he began his studies. They went over this in the pilot. I feel like I've missed something, has Andre made one disparaging remark about any of his family members that would lead people to think he thinks he's better than them? Because that's a mighty assumption to make.

 

And why would anyone respect or like lucious? Jamal doesn't either.

 

1. Those examples would be valid if Andre even cared about the people that Lucious has hurt. Andre also let his mother rot in prison. She'd be rotting in that apartment and office alone if Andre didn't need her to try to divide Jamal and Hakeem.

 

While he may not disagree with Jamal being gay, he hasn't done much other than applaud after a performance to show any support to Jamal, in fact, I believe in the pilot, he was shown as blowing Jamal and Michael off for dinner. Andre's heart isn't breaking over Lucious' treatment of the family.

 

2. Lucious raised that boy and all of his boys with the expectation that they would one day take over Empire, so Andre was sent to Penn in order to come and take a spot within the company. Andre just now has it twisted and believes that he could do a better job of running it than his father. Why? Because of his Lucious paid for education.

 

Maybe he had the actual grades and intellect to get free rides to his schools of higher education, but they are playing it as the opportunities were provided and paid for by Lucious.

 

As to the perceived lack of respect, it doesn't always have to be spelled out word for word for someone to notice that they don't respect you. Just the fact that Andre shows more reverence to and trust in Vernon is enough for Lucious to understand that Andre doesn't respect him or the work that he's done. As close as Vernon is to the family, he technically, still isn't family, but that is who Andre is plotting with to take Empire away from his father and was doing that before Lucious called them to the house for that challenge to head the company.

 

There are plenty of people that have less than moral parents, but they are still able to base their love and respect for those parents on the relationship they have with their parents, not the world's relationship and perception of their parents. A lot of the disdain Lucious shows towards Andre is precipitated by the disdain he feels from Andre, that strain in the relationship is going both ways. The distance between him and Cookie was established by the distance that Andre maintained while Cookie was in prison.

 

In regards to Lucious starting the competition, you can establish yourself as the best choice without destroying your brothers as both Hakeem and Jamal have done thus far. As competitive as they've become, the most one has done was punch the other in stomach and that was only after he stared down the barrel of a gun. Even with them wanting the company, they've still shown that they want their brother alongside them, Andre has not.

[Guest]

Anika was a fool as always.  Why would she want to rush the wedding, when he just slept with someone else?  Being married doesn't mean he won't cheat.

But she'll have her territory marked, and his assets when he dies. 

 

Oh and yay Cookie got her bigger office.

And Rhonda is clearly not as ok with the sex games as Andre thinks. He has to know there was a line he shouldnt cross.

Rhonda should speak up beforehand (or even after seeing the old man), not jump Andre's bones like a dog in heat when he first suggests the games.  

 

So, Danny Strong, one of the co-creators, [ who's previous claim to fame prior to helping to write Hunger Games: Mockingjay, was as a minor reoccurring character on Buffy, and who had no prior real affiliation with Hip Hop Culture ] one day listening to a few rappers and deciding ... hmm, I think I now have enough insight to co-create an entire show around Hip Hop / somewhat stereotypical aspects of black culture.

 

I accept the fact that behind the scenes, very little in Hollywood gets done without whites being involved at the executive level because of the disgraceful lack of any kind of real diversity at the executive levels, but somehow that knowledge of how certain aspects of this show came to being, rubs me the wrong way.

 

Strong has won 3 Emmy Awards, 2 Writers Guild of America Awards, a Producers Guild of America Award and a Golden Globe Award, all for screenwriting, all but one for writing the excellent political movie Game Change.  I don't know how he researched that or this, and I don't care, he's the reason I tuned in.  I don't think white-cast shows need only white writers/creators/producers or vice versa, especially the night-time soap genre.  

[memememe76]

I kinda found this show to be a little sexist with the women characters.

 

I think there is a difference between the female characters written in a sexist manner and the females characters being written in sexist environment. I think it's more the latter. I find the female characters quite complex and multilayered. I will use Tatianna (sp?) as an example. Look at Nashville, and how they present Layla (Tatianna's equivalent), who's snivelling all over the place due to her love woes. Tatianna, in contrast, is focused on her career and looking for guidance from a woman.

[photo fox]

IDK I like Andre. I don't mind that he goes too far in trying to get his prize that he uses his brothers as pawns. I like unlikeable characters who are damaged in some way. It's always nice to see the characters who fight through adversity and victimization but on the other side of the coin, the characters who are damaged by dysfunction in some way, especially parental dysfunction, and then they act out their dysfunction are fascinating to me on a whole 'nother level.

 

Andre's relationship with his brothers is very hard for me to decipher because all we see is distance and they don't have a lot of scenes together. Does he resent his brothers? Does he love them? I can't rightly say.

I think Andre is a fascinating character, too, and Trai Byers had me literally gasping on the edge of my seat during that gun scene. He is so good. I think being a quiet character in the middle of a loud, emotive family is a difficult role to play, both for Andre as a "person" and TB as an actor.

I'm also having a hard time pinning down Andre's relationship with Jamal and Hakeem. He seems to regard them as kind of annoying punks (especially Hakeem), which I think is pretty typical oldest brother behavior, especially considering the age span. But he doesn't seem protective, and that's a little off to me. Considering their mother was in prison and their father was... unreliable... you'd normally expect him to have somewhat of a parental relationship with them. What was it like for them as brothers growing up after Cookie went away? (Actually, that's a pretty constant question I have - what happened when Cookie was in prison? - but considering the short number of episodes, I can see why they aren't taking the time to fill all that in.)

As for Andre/Rhonda (Rhondre? lol), I don't think either one of them was wrong. Rhonda, up to this point, seemed to be okay with this kind of thing, or at least let Andre think she was. So I don't blame him for thinking she'd be up for anything. But I also don't blame her for drawing the line at someone she found completely unattractive. She may have "bartered" her favors before, but it may have been with someone she'd like to have sex with anyway. That doesn't mean she's "for sale" forever and to anyone who can pay the price. She went there thinking she was going to have sex with a hot young woman, and Andre changed the plan. They may be in an open relationship, but Andre's her husband, not her pimp.

[dirtypop90]

 

2. Lucious raised that boy and all of his boys with the expectation that they would one day take over Empire, so Andre was sent to Penn in order to come and take a spot within the company. Andre just now has it twisted and believes that he could do a better job of running it than his father. Why? Because of his Lucious paid for education.

 

Maybe he had the actual grades and intellect to get free rides to his schools of higher education, but they are playing it as the opportunities were provided and paid for by Lucious.

 

As to the perceived lack of respect, it doesn't always have to be spelled out word for word for someone to notice that they don't respect you. Just the fact that Andre shows more reverence to and trust in Vernon is enough for Lucious to understand that Andre doesn't respect him or the work that he's done. As close as Vernon is to the family, he technically, still isn't family, but that is who Andre is plotting with to take Empire away from his father and was doing that before Lucious called them to the house for that challenge to head the company.

 

There are plenty of people that have less than moral parents, but they are still able to base their love and respect for those parents on the relationship they have with their parents, not the world's relationship and perception of their parents. A lot of the disdain Lucious shows towards Andre is precipitated by the disdain he feels from Andre, that strain in the relationship is going both ways. The distance between him and Cookie was established by the distance that Andre maintained while Cookie was in prison.

 

In regards to Lucious starting the competition, you can establish yourself as the best choice without destroying your brothers as both Hakeem and Jamal have done thus far. As competitive as they've become, the most one has done was punch the other in stomach and that was only after he stared down the barrel of a gun. Even with them wanting the company, they've still shown that they want their brother alongside them, Andre has not.

 

Most of this is based on assumptions about Andre and not what has been shown on our screen. There has been nothing even hinting at Andre thinking he can run the business better than Lucious. He wants to be his successor and believes he is the most qualified. But because he is not a musician, he is not working on an even playing field with his brothers so he must work dirty. Hakeem and Jamal don't have to do what Andre does because they are musicians and have the upper hand in this competition. Andre isn't even seen as a competitor in this competition because no one believes Lucious would ever pass it down to him. Jamal, the son who's lifestyle he hates and is the most openly hostile towards Lucious, has a better chance than Andre.

 

And Hakeem and Jamal received a better education than Andre to begin with, because Andre was in middle school when they were still in the hood. And Hakeem nor Jamal appear too bright, so Lucious's money isn't responsible for what Andre has accomplished. he could easily have been like Jamal who, in the pilot, was just bumming off of Lucious's money.

 

I know everyone loves Lucious and Cookie. But I wouldn't want them as my parents and damn sure wouldn't respect them if they were. They are both awful parents, and Lucious is just an awful human being. Any ill feelings Andre feels towards them is understandable. But once again Andre comes off as respecting Lucious and wanting his approval. andre and cookie don't share enough scenes for us to know how he feels about her.

Edited March 1, 2015 by dirtypop90

[photo fox]

I think it's a really interesting idea - the money or the music? I can see arguments for both. But I keep coming back to what Lucious actually said in the pilot, which wasn't that Andre didn't understand or appreciate the music, but that it's a "celebrity-driven business/culture, and it needs to be run by a celebrity."

Because right now, if you go with the money side of the argument, Andre is already there. (Ignoring his medical issues for the moment, because Lucious doesn't know about that.) But if you go with the music side, neither Jamal nor Hakeem is even close to being a star or a celebrity at this point. Neither of them has any real credibility. They've both had some small media buzz, but neither of them has even released an album yet, gone on tour, had a hit single, anything.

So while Andre has the money side, but not the music side, Jamal and Hakeem are completely lacking on the money side, and on the music side, I guess you can say that have untapped talent? Good instincts? But neither of them is proven at all.

Edited March 1, 2015 by photo fox
because I cannot spell Looshuss

[Eolivet]

I'm also having a hard time pinning down Andre's relationship with Jamal and Hakeem. He seems to regard them as kind of annoying punks (especially Hakeem), which I think is pretty typical oldest brother behavior, especially considering the age span. But he doesn't seem protective, and that's a little off to me.

 

Exactly. Which is why I'm forced to interpret what I see onscreen, which is "Andre has no regard for any members of his family (except for not wanting Jamal to die)." Another strange thing is the flashback from this episode seemed to indicate to me that there's a somewhat of a smaller age difference between Andre and Jamal than Jamal and Hakeem. Granted, similar age siblings often don't get along, but it looks to me that he's cut himself off from all family activity (except for Lucious and Empire) and then is complaining loudly that nobody pays attention to him. When...you can't have it both ways...?

 

I am willing to amend my opinion on Andre if new episodes show him as having any real warmth and affection towards a single member of his immediate family -- not just Lucious or Cookie. It's, in my opinion, extremely adolescent behavior: daddy likes my brothers better and it's their fault, rather than realizing that Jamal and Hakeem can't control how Lucious feels about them any more than Andre can. Also, that you can scheme against someone in business and still like them as a person. Hence the old "It's not personal, it's just business" saying.

 

If Andre maintained a pleasant relationship with either brother, and was still scheming against them to get the company, it would make him far more interesting to me. I hope that's a writing issue that will be rectified in the future.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Eolivet

[grannygeek]

I've reading/seeing "luscious", as in delectable when I see Lucius's name spelled as the producers apparently want it to be. But when y'all or your autocorrect are in fact spelling it "luscious" it makes my inner grammar and spelling Nazi go crazy and my eyeballs spin!

 

Dictionary: luscious: having a very appealing taste or smell. : richly appealing. : very physically attractive. - And he isn't. All that. Definition of Lucius means Light.

[Luciano]

The show spells it "Lucious."

[Timetoread]

If Lucious wanted to pick a successor based on merit, Andre is the only person that is really qualified but he's more interested in granting the keys to the kingdom to those with musical talent which for the moment excludes Andre.

 

To me what seems lost in the whole argument is that Lucius doesn't OWE his business to anybody.  It is HIS business.  While I don't like the concept of making the boys compete, I don't entertain thoughts that one of them is necessarily more deserving than the other of a gift that is wholly their father's to bestow.  Yes Andre has helped his father and shown himself to be a capable businessman.  And yes Jamal, homosexuality notwithstanding, is very talented.  Hakeem is not much more than a child right now and all we really know about him is that he is a spoilt child with mommy issues.  But we don't know for sure if his father's instincts about him are incorrect.  He's known him all his life and parents tend to have a good idea what the true potential of their children is even if the children don't take steps to realize that potential.  I found it interesting that with all the talk of Hakeem being a favorite and Jamal being hated and Andre being unappreciated that Lucius had a competition at all.  Why not just leave his two older boys fat inheritances out of his own cash and leave Empire to Hakeem?  There is more to his motivations than being mean for the sake mean. IMO. 

 

There are plenty of people that have less than moral parents, but they are still able to base their love and respect for those parents on the relationship they have with their parents, not the world's relationship and perception of their parents.

 

Amen.  I simply don't understand the people talking about how much they would hate and dismiss their parents if they were like Lucius and Cookie.  People don't audition for parenthood based on moral character before they are allowed to have a child.  We get the parents that we get and it is absolutely primal to love your parents regardless of who they are.  Yes there are people who are truly abused and brutalized by criminal type parents, but this has not happened here.  Lucius and Cookie are those boys parents.  They both did their best for them - even if their best was miles away from perfect.  I haven't been shown motivation for any of them - including Jamal - to hate their parents.  And if the hate is REAL, then leave and cut all ties, rather than trying to quibble over inheritence - otherwise you are just being mercenary proving that the apple did not fall very far from the tree.  Ironically Hakeem, the favored one, is the only one who - although enjoying his rich kid status - seems to love his father and is very sad to be losing him.  Not the money, HIM.  Hakeem is MY front runner as well for this very reason.

[jsbt]

I don't think Jamal hates his father. Until Lucious basically told him to come out and 'speak his truth,' he made it very clear to Hakeem that he intended to respect his father in his time of need and wait to come out til he passed. I think like everyone in the family, he has very conflicted feelings about Lucious, understands him as an artist, and craves his respect and understanding while hating the way he dismisses and sometimes demeans him.

[wanderingstar]

I really loved the scene between Hakeem and Jamal at the church. It was nice to see them come together over mutual concern over their dad.

[Luciano]

Going back to the Anika vs. Rhonda/Lucious hypocrisy thing - I feel like Lucious's rant against Andre and acceptance came from a place of worry for his legacy. That legacy is not just Empire, but Empire as a black family-run business. Anika is not an issue in that regard because Lucious's legacy will be in the hands of one of his black sons. Anika is an afterthought. While she and the brothers have an cordial relationship, you could see that none of them see her as family (even teenage Hakeem, who has been wanting a mother figure) or someone influential beyond the music business. Who was influential or close to them, other than Lucious? Vernon for Andre, Bunky for Hakeem, and Cookie for Jamal. All black people. That's who Lucious decided would surround his kids. Someone like Anika's dad is not even on their radar. Hell, I don't think he was much on Lucious's radar until he needed some medical fraud done up.

 

So coming to Andre, I'm guessing that Lucious sees Empire as something that will remain in the family even past this generation. So whatever son is chosen, that son's child (whenever s/he may come) would be brought up to take over the business. So if it's Andre that takes over, there is a good possibility that the next in line would be coming from him and Rhonda. Who is going to be influencing THAT kid? Andre keeps Jamal and Hakeem at arm's length - at least at this point, if either of the latter two ever have kids, Uncle Jamal/Uncle Hakeem would be a major presence in their life. That's not the clear case when it comes to Andre. Is it Rhonda's side of the family (and that is one of the mysteries that will explain a lot about Andre - how is his relationship with them?) that is going to be the major influence? Or will CEO Andre's version of Vernon be a white friend he met at school? Maybe if Lucious thought he was going to be around, he'd be more lenient since he himself would be directly influencing the situation but he doesn't  think he's going to be around long enough to ensure Andre isn't going to start handing out positions to his (white) friends from college or whatever or to assert the Lyon side of the family to his mixed-race grandchildren.

 

So in that way, I could see why he doesn't see his comments as hypocricy. He already built his legacy before Anika, her influence on said legacy (his kids) is minimal, her dad's influence is non-existent. This wouldn't be the case for Andre and Rhonda, since Rhonda and everything she brings with her would be a much bigger influence.

[SnarkKitty]

I don't buy Rhonda's pity party. She was all for selling herself when she thought it would be someone sexy. She only had a problem with it when the guy was disabled. She most certainly has the right to choose her sexual partners, but to make Andre feel bad for something that was 100% on board with is a terrible thing to do. All she had to do was say "This wasn't what I thought it was. Don't ever set me up with someone like that again." 

 

I'll have to do a rewatch. Now you have me wondering if she plays into Andre's sex games because she thinks they are a part of his bipolar disorder and therefore one of the things she has to do if she wants to be with him. 

 

100% this. I just rewatched the scene on Hulu, and she was into it from the beginning. At the point they arrived, and he asked if she were as turned on as him, she starts making out with him. I don't disagree that at any point along the way she has the right to say "no." But her anger on the ride home and trying to make it seem as if she were forced or pimped out - no ma'am. You were down right up until you saw that old man in a wheelchair. You took the change of plans, switching partners up in stride and said "you keep Mrs. Blakely occupied while I keep Mr. Blakely busy."  You were only upset when you saw the hand dealt you - and you were too weak to object and Andre didn't let you off the hook.  Y'all should have established a safe word for your games.  But no, you don't get to act like you weren't as down as he was.

 

 

Rhonda should speak up beforehand (or even after seeing the old man), not jump Andre's bones like a dog in heat when he first suggests the games.

 

Yeah.

 

Cookie: I'm glad she's adjusting to life outside of jail and picking up where she left off being a music producer.

 

I liked that they showed that glimpse of Cookie in jail. I wish they had shown more of those scenes throughout - at the very least, show us Cookie keeping up with current music. She left jail, was using an iPhone a couple of days later and shortly thereafter was texting and making 3 way calls like a pro. People I know who have been away far less time are thrown by cell phones and texting. This week she was using equipment in the studio like she hadn't missed the last 17 years of technology. Not a word of dialogue about the way things have changed. Y'all really work a chick's suspension of disbelief, show.

 

When did Rhonda try to pit Andre against his family- without his directive?  Luscious basically told the boys all right one of you is getting control of the Empire so have at it. Show me who wants it more ( but told Andre he has no soul, told Jamal he can't because he is gay, and seemed to put his money on Hakeem. A teenager with mommy issues.)  The only time Rhonda did something actively was when she called Andre to her shoot, to show him Tianna & her girlfriend, and then post the pictures.  Which Andre was fully aware of.  She was the one who hesitated when Andre wanted to send those idiots over to Jamals' studio session.

 

Very first Rhonda scene, first words, Ep1: "Look at 'em. Your brothers are showing off again."  Said with a sneer. Yet they were singing in an empty room with no one around to show off for. Next Rhonda scene: she's the one who suggests creating a wedge between the brothers and says "they just may kill each other" with a grin. Andre notes how close they are and she starts stripping and asking "Do you really want this company?" before shutting it down any further discussion or possible objections with sex. So no, Andre's not an unwilling participant, but Rhonda definitely takes a lead role in pitting him against his family.

Edited March 2, 2015 by SnarkKitty

[Kendall]

I think the reason why Rhonda was upset with Andre is that he knew that the old man was in a wheelchair as he deals with the people on that board. The only thing he showed Rhonda was a picture that had the man at seemingly his best for the company photo, but Andre knew the extent of that man's condition and did not tell his wife.

 

So, Andre did deceive her to a certain extent and she resented it. Why would you lie to someone that is willing to help you with just a little heads up?

[wayne67]

Have we ever seen Andre have a conversation with either of the other brothers ?

 

I always got the impression that they weren't that close growing up as their interests would gravitate towards music and dreams of fame and success and his was more school orientated and taking over the business when he grew up. I imagined that they would have drifted further apart during his prolonged absences for college.

 

I get the impression that Andre is only close to Rhonda and Vernon and everyone else... is out of the loop of the actual reality of his life. I don't see that as a race thing I see it as a result of diverging interests from his family.

 

Lucious supposedly runs this multi million dollar business empire but only seems concerned with 'music' so I assume he has a bunch of corporate flunkies with decent resumes to run the other business aspects.

 

I don't know. The family dynamics are twisted and tangled...

[dirtypop90]

get the impression that Andre is only close to Rhonda and Vernon and everyone else... is out of the loop of the actual reality of his life. I don't see that as a race thing I see it as a result of diverging interests from his family.

 

Exactly, I don't get this Andre has an issue with black people assumption. he's very close to vernon. I don't know why people assume his right hand man would be white.  Andre was the president of the black grad students association in school so he has a network of capable black business men and women he can tap into. He has not been shown to shy away from black people. And Rhonda's family is back down south somewhere. They are poor, country folk she ran away from. They won't have any influence on Andre and how he runs this business. We don't even know if she's still in contact with them.

 

I can understand the concern of andre surrounding himself with suits, but we have no reason to believe they will all be white suits.

 

Jamal and Hakeem can very well have mixed race children as well. There is no guarantee either one of them will marry black people and have only no-biracial children. And if Anika is black, so is Andre's future mixed-race children.

Edited March 2, 2015 by dirtypop90

[Luciano]

But Lucious doesn't see it that way. He said it outright, he thinks Andre is looking for acceptance and Andre agrees with him, although I'm not sure if they have the same concept of 'acceptance' - I think Andre meant it more broadly while Lucious was focused on race.* In his mind, that search for acceptance brings up the possibility that it will affect how he would control Empire. He connects his "They will accept your money, but they will never accept you" rant with "This is a family business [...] I'm going to leave it to somebody who cares about my family, not someone who's trying to tear it apart." He's proud that his successful company is a black family business, with his immediate family on payroll. He thinks none of his children are prepared to take over, but he's sure as hell going to try to make at least one of them prepared because he wants to create a legacy and that legacy is tied into having created a successful black family. He wants his black sons with their black families to reap the benefits of all the work he has put into building up this company. The head of the company will obviously have the most power and money in the family and, to put it bluntly, I doubt Lucious would be happy that a white woman be the beneficiary of having her spouse in that position.

What he considers Anika doesn't matter. He wasn't even going to wife her up until he needed her father to commit fraud for him. He has his heirs with a black woman and the legacy passes through them. With the way he's been acting, Lucious's ideal outcome would be to not even make it down the aisle.

Andre was the president of the black grad students association in school so he has a network of capable black business men and women he can tap into

Yeah, but to someone suspicious about how Andre would operate, the thought would be, "You had access to intelligent and ambitious black women that shared your interests and you still brought home a white woman from the South. What else are you going to be doing?"

Jamal and Hakeem can very well have mixed race children as well. There is no guarantee either one of them will marry black people and have only no-biracial children.

But they are closer to each other and will most likely be involved with each other's families. Lucious sees Andre as being the outlier - more susceptible to outside influences because he doesn't have a bond with the rest of his family. And the "what if?" is weaker than what already exists. Lucious doesn't know what the future for them will bring, but he does know (at least, he's hoping like hell) that one son, the one who has the closest relationship with his black mother, has a black daughter (who right now is completely under the Lyons), one son dates black women and is completely immersed in a black environment, and one son is married to a white woman and is more distant from his family than the first two.

* I felt for Andre while he was saying that, because I think he meant general acceptance - like, he wasn't musically-inclined so he went to business school to become an asset for his father in another way and to carve out a spot for himself. Also going into his mental illness, acceptance in the form of others seeing you as well and healthy and "normal," not volatile or unstable.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Luciano

[Grace19]

another reason why i think Luscious was voted ''NO'', to Andre is that he acted like he was glad luscious was dying and couldn't wait to take over his company.

it was probably less than a week that he came clean to his family that he was dying and already Andre and Vernon have already met the board members behind his back to vote him in as the temporary CEO. hell I would vote no too if my son did something like that to me.

the least that Andre and Vernon could have done was to wait a few more weeks or months, then meet Luscious first before going to the rest of the board, it looked to much like he was trying to steal his company from him behind his back. he showed no loyalty to his Father in that situation.

[Milz]

Anika is not a trophy in white people's eyes because biracial people, no matter how accomplished, (see: Obama) are still seen as black by white people in this country.

If anything, him marrying Anika might give him a smidge of status among certain black folks but even that's a stretch.

.

 

Ah, I see you and I are discussing apples and oranges because my opinions are based upon socioeconomics, not race. Because Anika is from a higher socioeconomic background and educational level than Lucious, it makes him less street (ie: more acceptable)  to white people if he's with her rather than Cookie. Socioeconomically, Lucious and his sons are in the same position that the industrialists of the late 19th Century were in: "new money". The way JP Morgan, Cornelius Vanderbilt, etc. became "acceptable" by sending their sons to the Ivy League and marrying their daughters off to European royalty and nobility. By showing that their families not only had money but education and status with "Society", they became more acceptable and accepted.

[aprilbabe]

another reason why i think Luscious was voted ''NO'', to Andre is that he acted like he was glad luscious was dying and couldn't wait to take over his company. it was probably less than a week that he came clean to his family that he was dying and already Andre and Vernon have already met the board members behind his back to vote him in as the temporary CEO. hell I would vote no too if my son did something like that to me. the least that Andre and Vernon could have done was to wait a few more weeks or months, then meet Luscious first before going to the rest of the board, it looked to much like he was trying to steal his company from him behind his back. he showed no loyalty to his Father in that situation.

Yep Lucious is not stupid. It was obvious Andre and Vernon conspired for those votes. And he probably heard through the grapevine about what Andre was doing BEFORE the official vote. They really shouldn't be surprised Lucious voted no. I would have voted no too. And really only one person on the board voted Yay that wasn't family and Andre seemingly had to work for that one vote too. If nobody on the board likes him or see fit for him to run the company maybe he shouldn't.

 

Yea Anika is black. I mean I know shes biracial, but in the eyes of the average black person and the average white person she's black. Just like Obama is the first black president and Halle Berry is one of the few black actresses to win an Oscar, etc. So its not the same.