All Episodes Talk: What's Up Doc?

[readster]

41 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

Abby always knew better than the experts about everything.  No way an L&D nurse, even one with far more experience than Abby, knows enough about the management of uterine fibroids and hemorrhage to question the attending physician's clinical judgement.  That was kind of par for the course for Abby.  She always knew the best way to do anything and pushed and pushed both patients and colleagues to do things her way.  She was a bully, IMO.  And not that bright, either.

Plus, Morris sitting there doing nothing. I mean they just had a major disaster happen outside their front doors and he is still there. No one takes him or anything. Same with how everyone was acting: "Where's Ramono?" Well, I know it's chaos, but come on, you see this, people saw him going outside, well.. Duh! I know Grimes later said after the series ended: "I hated my character in the first few episodes, he should have been fired for the dumb things he did."

[Bastet]

8 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

It is also weird how my brain works. I remember nothing about the plots of season 4 and no memory of Cynthia,

Your brain probably did you a favor and repressed the memory of her.

[WendyCR72]

2 hours ago, Bastet said:

Your brain probably did you a favor and repressed the memory of her.

Mariska Hargitay certainly proved that she could play annoying well! I was thrilled to see the back of Cynthia.

[PepSinger]

On 10/18/2020 at 4:46 PM, doodlebug said:

One of the reasons I came to strongly dislike Abby was the way she treated her mother and brother.  As though they were 'lesser than'; as though they required her management.  I surely get why she wanted to lock them up and get them out of her life, but she was selfish and cruel.

Thank you. Watching S7 and S9, I was trying to put my finger on why I found Abby's behavior towards her mother and brother so repugnant, and you nailed it. Abby acts as if she is the expert on Bipolar Disorder, which is rich considering that BD can take on many forms. Her mother and brother are still adults; they are capable of making decisions for themselves. Also, it kills me that Abby talks about how her mother sometimes acted like her mother and sometimes she didn't. Well, Abby acts as if she's sometimes Maggie's daughter, and other times, she acts as if she has no idea who the woman is. Abby's causing just as much harm as her mother except it's worse because she doesn't have Bipolar Disorder to use as a reason! Finally, I hate that she calls her mother, "Maggie." I just find it so disrespectful. This isn't your sorority sister; this is your mother. Yikes.

Edited October 20, 2020 by PepSinger

[Danny Franks]

11 hours ago, PepSinger said:

Thank you. Watching S7 and S9, I was trying to put my finger on why I found Abby's behavior towards her mother and brother so repugnant, and you nailed it. Abby acts as if she is the expert on Bipolar Disorder, which is rich considering that BD can take on many forms. Her mother and brother are still adults; they are capable of making decisions for themselves. Also, it kills me that Abby talks about how her mother sometimes acted like her mother and sometimes she didn't. Well, Abby acts as if she's sometimes Maggie's daughter, and other times, she acts as if she has no idea who the woman is. Abby's causing just as much harm as her mother except it's worse because she doesn't have Bipolar Disorder to use as a reason! Finally, I hate that she calls her mother, "Maggie." I just find it so disrespectful. This isn't your sorority sister; this is your mother. Yikes.

One thing I will say about Abby's attitude towards her mother - it felt realistic that she'd be bitter and view her mother's illness as a burden that Abby has to deal with. That's who Abby was as a character. And it's who the writers wanted her to be - 'poor Abby, she has so much on her shoulders but she's still super awesome and sassy and tough and don't you just love her?'

Some characters I always forget ever existed on the show - those played by Alan Alda and Don Cheadle. I know neither were around for long, but for two big names they were so... small and pointless.

[doodlebug]

2 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

One thing I will say about Abby's attitude towards her mother - it felt realistic that she'd be bitter and view her mother's illness as a burden that Abby has to deal with. That's who Abby was as a character. And it's who the writers wanted her to be - 'poor Abby, she has so much on her shoulders but she's still super awesome and sassy and tough and don't you just love her?'

Some characters I always forget ever existed on the show - those played by Alan Alda and Don Cheadle. I know neither were around for long, but for two big names they were so... small and pointless.

Alan Alda should've been given more to do, IMO, but. perhaps he didn't want a longer arc.  I will say that his scenes in 'The Peace of Wild Things', especially when Kerry tells him she will visit him even if he doesn't remember her were so well acted.

Don Cheadle's character confused me.  I get that he had Parkinson's Disease and it was very bold and courageous of him to want to attend medical school and become a doctor.  However, he had definite physical limitations; ones that could potentially be harmful to patients.  One of the lines of the Hippocratic Oath is 'first do no harm', after all.  When Elizabeth saw that he couldn't handle working in the OR due to his tremors and the unpredictability of his symptoms, she offered an alternative and he acted offended, like her concern that he might slip with a retractor which could lead to a major complication for a patient was unreasonable.  Same thing when he was working in the ER and was unable to use an otoscope to look into a child's ear without hurting him.  So, they rigged up an otoscope to a screen so he could see inside without touching the 'scope.  That's great, but the set-up he used probably cost around $10,000 and was not practical since it couldn't be carried in his pocket like a real otoscope.  It helped him to learn about ear infections the same way a photograph in a textbook would; but it wasn't anything that could translate to improved patient care.  He acted like the patients were there for HIS benefit, not vice versa, and they should be willing to put up with whatever accommodation had to be made so he could work on them, even if it was potentially risky, painful, time consuming and/or expensive.

Edited October 20, 2020 by doodlebug

[debraran]

14 hours ago, doodlebug said:

Alan Alda should've been given more to do, IMO, but. perhaps he didn't want a longer arc.  I will say that his scenes in 'The Peace of Wild Things', especially when Kerry tells him she will visit him even if he doesn't remember her were so well acted.

Don Cheadle's character confused me.  I get that he had Parkinson's Disease and it was very bold and courageous of him to want to attend medical school and become a doctor.  However, he had definite physical limitations; ones that could potentially be harmful to patients.  One of the lines of the Hippocratic Oath is 'first do no harm', after all.  When Elizabeth saw that he couldn't handle working in the OR due to his tremors and the unpredictability of his symptoms, she offered an alternative and he acted offended, like her concern that he might slip with a retractor which could lead to a major complication for a patient was unreasonable.  Same thing when he was working in the ER and was unable to use an otoscope to look into a child's ear without hurting him.  So, they rigged up an otoscope to a screen so he could see inside without touching the 'scope.  That's great, but the set-up he used probably cost around $10,000 and was not practical since it couldn't be carried in his pocket like a real otoscope.  It helped him to learn about ear infections the same way a photograph in a textbook would; but it wasn't anything that could translate to improved patient care.  He acted like the patients were there for HIS benefit, not vice versa, and they should be willing to put up with whatever accommodation had to be made so he could work on them, even if it was potentially risky, painful, time consuming and/or expensive.

I loved Alan Aldas time there and wish it were longer. I also loved  his MASH reference for fans about a technique “ he learned as a doc in the army” 😉

Part of interview:

For all the times he's stood in front of a camera digging into a patient, it might seem Alda would be immune to grisly scenes, especially since he knows how the magic is done. Besides starring in M*A*S*H, he directed dozens of episodes. Nevertheless, the realism of ER was upsetting. "I was standing over a guy, ready to do a shot. They said, 'You have to stick a tube in his chest.' The chest was a prosthesis but I was standing 3 feet over him and I couldn't tell. I cut a hole in it and stuck the tube in. It was revolting."

ER's obsession with doing things right drew Alda to the role. "The phone call took five minutes. They told me about the character and I said yes. This is the No. 1 show on TV and they said they called me because they want to be better. I was honored to be asked."

The fact that his character isn't a lovable cut-up like Hawkeye was not an issue. If anything, the opportunity to play against type was a positive, Alda said. Besides, he doesn't see Dr. Lawrence as a bad guy. "I don't think he's especially irritable. He's a teacher. He helped invent ER medicine. Because he knows, he likes to teach. Some people doing it -- Mark Greene, in particular -- don't like to be told

"His story line runs through Nov. 11. His other commitments probably preclude extending it beyond then. Further down the line, who knows, he said. "They left the door open a crack. We'll have to see."

He mentioned maybe going back in an interview back then but I guess having him sick would have been sad.

Edited October 21, 2020 by debraran

[RedbirdNelly]

 

I loved the Alan Alda arc. It was very sad and well acted. I love Don Cheadle but his storyline made no sense to me at all. I didn't get it. He was being unreasonable. I wish they had brought him in for something that tied into the overall show better. 

[CrazyInAlabama]

I thought the Alan Alda story was touching.   

I hated the Don Cheadle story.   The writers could have come up with a better story, such as, he was through with med school and clinicals, and then started with the Parkinson symptoms, so went into psychiatry or something.    

[RedbirdNelly]

I also think the Don Cheadle arc sends a bad message--as if it's quitting or not fighting hard enough for a person to make reasonable accommodations for a condition such as going into a field that doesn't require precise hand control.

[Driad]

The Don Cheadle arc was the writers' chance to (partially) make up for messing up Romano's arc.  They had a second chance to show a doctor changing specialties because of a disability, and they failed.  Again.  (Likely different writers, but they should have paid attention to what had happened earlier in the series.)

[Birdie]

I like Cheadle as an actor, but I didn’t really see what his character added to the show during his arc. And I didn’t like the ep where he harped and cajoled that woman with the lung disease into going for a transplant. Carter was right to call him out as far as the “do you know what it took for her to face her mortality?” And, yes, I know he was dealing with Parkinson’s, but his meds were working for him, at least to a certain extent. The woman was allergic to the only treatment for her condition. And didn’t Carter say even with the transplant, she’d have to still deal with the disease? And I’m all for scientific progress, but Nathan made it seem like cures would be rolling out the next day as opposed to this episode aired, what, ~16 years ago, and we still haven’t seen what he was talking about applied to mainstream medicine.

I agree With the above poster who pointed out it would’ve been great to show him choosing to practice in psych or some other speciality that didn’t require such dexterity. To show that working with what abilities you’re given is not a sign or weakness but of strength - to still go after what you want (in Nathan’s case, medicine), but to acknowledge you might have to do so with some concessions.

[Kel Varnsen]

Finished season 4 a couple of nights ago and started 5 last night. Sorry to see that Maria Bello is no longer in the cast , because I like her as an actress and I liked the Anna character. It is too bad that her American version of Prime Suspect never took off that was a great show. Plus after watching season 4 it is crazy that both Mariska Hargitay and Jorja Fox went on to be stars of long running, popular network tv shows while Bello is who I think is better, never really had the same success.

[readster]

10 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Finished season 4 a couple of nights ago and started 5 last night. Sorry to see that Maria Bello is no longer in the cast , because I like her as an actress and I liked the Anna character. It is too bad that her American version of Prime Suspect never took off that was a great show. Plus after watching season 4 it is crazy that both Mariska Hargitay and Jorja Fox went on to be stars of long running, popular network tv shows while Bello is who I think is better, never really had the same success.

Right and I really did like what Anna brought to the show and her and Carter did have chemistry. I just saw this as an example of: "We had plans for the character, someone offered them a better deal and that's just where things went." It wasn't like she didn't still have successful career, but as people point out you have actors who leave when they shouldn't because their agent/manager thinks of a dumb decision. Or you have ones where the TPTB love the character's ass so much they never let them go, no matter how bad or how much they write the character horrible. They beat you over the head with them like Abby or Sam. Where you get where the actor expresses they aren't happy with the character and threaten to walk and they do make the changes like with Grimes. 

Edited October 24, 2020 by readster
thinks not things.

[Danny Franks]

4 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Finished season 4 a couple of nights ago and started 5 last night. Sorry to see that Maria Bello is no longer in the cast , because I like her as an actress and I liked the Anna character. It is too bad that her American version of Prime Suspect never took off that was a great show. Plus after watching season 4 it is crazy that both Mariska Hargitay and Jorja Fox went on to be stars of long running, popular network tv shows while Bello is who I think is better, never really had the same success.

I think someone else in this thread said that Maria Bello left because she wanted to do movies rather than television, perhaps because of the prestige (at the time) or perhaps because of the easier schedule. It's a harder market to break into and, while Bello had some high profile roles, she never became a big name. I agree she's a better actor than Hargitay or Fox, and probably better than most of the other people who've worked on E.R.

Her career might have been better if she'd stayed in E.R. for a while longer. I think the show would have been better if they hadn't had to scramble and turn Lucy into a catch-all new character - medical student, moral voice, foil/love interest for Carter. She was too big a presence, too quickly, and her character was kind of grating.

I always feel like Carter's character progress was derailed because he had to become an ill-fitting mentor to Lucy and was pushed into an authority role too early.

But Anna was a great character in her own right. She was tough and streetwise in a way the rest of the characters weren't, but completely believable as a compassionate paediatrician. I think they envisaged her being the main female character alongside Elizabeth after Carol left.

If Bello hadn't left, they probably wouldn't have needed to add Malucci or Finch, which would have been for the better as well. Neither character ever really added anything to the show, and the former drifted into inconsequential C-plots until he was fired while Cleo just became Benton's girlfriend.

[Dr.OO7]

On 10/19/2020 at 12:39 PM, doodlebug said:

went to medical school and did a residency in the early-mid 80's and missed multiple Christmases and birthdays.  I once drove home Christmas morning after working all night Christmas Eve, a 3 hour drive.  I fell asleep in the middle of opening gifts.  My father said, 'You know, it just wouldn't be the holidays if you weren't here falling asleep on the couch.'  There is no way Benton's family could have thought he'd be available on a work night, no less.

Heh. One of the best things about starting my rotations was no longer having to give my mother a million excuses about why I couldn't come to Jamaica for Christmas or Easter.

[Kel Varnsen]

6 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

I think someone else in this thread said that Maria Bello left because she wanted to do movies rather than television, perhaps because of the prestige (at the time) or perhaps because of the easier schedule. It's a harder market to break into and, while Bello had some high profile roles, she never became a big name. I agree she's a better actor than Hargitay or Fox, and probably better than most of the other people who've worked on E.R.

Her career might have been better if she'd stayed in E.R. for a while longer. I think the show would have been better if they hadn't had to scramble and turn Lucy into a catch-all new character - medical student, moral voice, foil/love interest for Carter. She was too big a presence, too quickly, and her character was kind of grating.

I always feel like Carter's character progress was derailed because he had to become an ill-fitting mentor to Lucy and was pushed into an authority role too early.

But Anna was a great character in her own right. She was tough and streetwise in a way the rest of the characters weren't, but completely believable as a compassionate paediatrician. I think they envisaged her being the main female character alongside Elizabeth after Carol left.

If Bello hadn't left, they probably wouldn't have needed to add Malucci or Finch, which would have been for the better as well. Neither character ever really added anything to the show, and the former drifted into inconsequential C-plots until he was fired while Cleo just became Benton's girlfriend.

Interesting about Maria Bello she is a strong actor which is why it is too bad she never became a big star. Although she has still had a career that like 99.99% of all actors would want.

Interesting too about her storylines going to other characters. Watching Season 5 now, Corday an experienced surgeon being an intern seems a lit like how Anna had done her peadatric residency and was then going back to do an ER residency.

[Growsonwalls]

Maria Bello was very vocal that she thought it was beneath her to do ER and was eager to leave the show. It doesn't sound like it was a good experience for her.

[WendyCR72]

13 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Maria Bello was very vocal that she thought it was beneath her to do ER and was eager to leave the show. It doesn't sound like it was a good experience for her.

Sounds like Maria Bello had a big ego, too.

[Growsonwalls]

27 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

Sounds like Maria Bello had a big ego, too.

She got some hatred from ER fans for the way she dismissed her time on the show, and this was before the internet blows up comments. It was a different time though. Nowadays we expect A-list actors to be on TV series. Back then film actors were definitely considered way more prestigious than TV which is why people thought it was a miracle that George Clooney stayed for five years.

[WendyCR72]

3 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Back then film actors were definitely considered way more prestigious than TV which is why people thought it was a miracle that George Clooney stayed for five years.

George wasn't a movie star before ER, either, though. He broke through while he was on the show and filming his first big movie during a hiatus. Before that, he was on the comedy, ironically set in an emergency room in Chicago, called E/R, had a role on The Facts of Life in its final years, and had a bit part on Roseanne, just before his first big popular role as Falconer on Sisters (as a love interest for Sela Ward's character. Loved them! But I digress...).

If anything, with the juggernaut ER became, it seemed to elevate the actors' profiles rather than detract. ER was as hot in the drama category as Friends, which debuted the same exact year (and shared a character with ER named Rachel Green(e)!), was in the comedy category.

I didn't hate on Maria Bello, only because I could take or leave Anna. But her attitude was definitely, "I'm better than this show!", so I can see why the reaction ended up being as it was.

[RedbirdNelly]

7 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

 just before his first big popular role as Falconer on Sisters (as a love interest for Sela Ward's character. Loved them! But I digress...).

.. . .. 

I didn't hate on Maria Bello, only because I could take or leave Anna. But her attitude was definitely, "I'm better than this show!", so I can see why the reaction ended up being as it was.

a huge thank you for the Sisters call out. I LOVED Falconer on Sisters and cried, gushed when he died. He and Sela had great chemistry. It seems like every time people talk about "before he was on ER", Sisters gets left out. It was where I got to know George Clooney.  It's nice to know I'm not the only person who remembers. The scene where Teddy loses it after holding his shirt? still gets me

I wish MBello had stayed longer. I don't hate on her though. 

[doodlebug]

On 10/25/2020 at 2:59 AM, WendyCR72 said:

George wasn't a movie star before ER, either, though. He broke through while he was on the show and filming his first big movie during a hiatus. Before that, he was on the comedy, ironically set in an emergency room in Chicago, called E/R, had a role on The Facts of Life in its final years, and had a bit part on Roseanne, just before his first big popular role as Falconer on Sisters (as a love interest for Sela Ward's character. Loved them! But I digress...).

If anything, with the juggernaut ER became, it seemed to elevate the actors' profiles rather than detract. ER was as hot in the drama category as Friends, which debuted the same exact year (and shared a character with ER named Rachel Green(e)!), was in the comedy category.

I didn't hate on Maria Bello, only because I could take or leave Anna. But her attitude was definitely, "I'm better than this show!", so I can see why the reaction ended up being as it was.

George wasn't a big star before ER, but, by the second season, he had tons of film opportunities, some of which he had to turn down.  He filmed Batman and Robin in the middle of the night so he could remain on ER.  TPTB did accommodate his filming schedule somewhat, but, mostly, he had to fit feature films in around his ER responsibilities.  Plenty of stars who broke out on TV ended up leaving their shows prematurely in a quest for bigger and better things, usually in the movies; but George made it clear from the start that he was grateful to ER and was going to honor his contract.  He also let them know early on that he was not going to sign an extension and would leave after 5 seasons.  You'd think TPTB would've done a better job writing him off the show given that they had a couple of years' notice.

A couple of actors whose profiles were raised considerably by a TV show who then chose to turn their backs on it are David Caruso in NYPD Blue and Suzanne Somers on Three's Company.  What they didn't realize, and Clooney did, was that they were part of an ensemble and that there were other actors on their shows who could carry the ball if they left; so no reason to storm off prematurely (Caruso) or demand a huge pay hike (Somers).  In both cases, they left the shows that made them stars and never achieved that kind of acclaim again while the shows they dissed went on successfully for years afterward.

In Bello's case, she had lined up a couple of big budget films, one with Mel Gibson (Payback(, one with Ben Stiller(Permanent Midnight), and thought she was on her way to bigger and better things in major Hollywood vehicles.  Both movies got some decent reviews, but neither was a blockbuster and Bello didn't get any exceptional recognition for her acting in them.  Most notably, neither film was the incredible artistic achievement that Bello claimed was her reason for wanting to do movies rather than TV.  ER was far more creative and well written than either of those films, IMO.

Edited October 26, 2020 by doodlebug

[readster]

20 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

George wasn't a big star before ER, but, by the second season, he had tons of film opportunities, some of which he had to turn down.  He filmed Batman and Robin in the middle of the night so he could remain on ER.  TPTB did accommodate his filming schedule somewhat, but, mostly, he had to fit feature films in around his ER responsibilities.  Plenty of 'star's who broke out on TV ended up leaving their shows prematurely in a quest for bigger and better things, usually in the movies; but George made it clear from the start that he was grateful to ER and was going to honor his contract.  He also let them know early on that he was not going to sign an extension and would leave after 5 seasons.  You'd think TPTB would've done a better job writing him off the show given that they had a couple of years' notice.

A couple of actors whose profiles were raised considerably by a TV show who then chose to turn their backs on it are David Caruso in NYPD Blue and Suzanne Somers on Three's Company.  What they didn't realize, and Clooney did, was that they were part of an ensemble and that there were other actors on their shows who could carry the ball if they left; so no reason to storm off prematurely (Caruso) or demand a huge pay hike (Somers).  In both cases, they left the shows that made them stars and never achieved that kind of acclaim again while the shows they dissed went on successfully for years afterward.

In Bello's case, she had lined up a couple of big budget films, one with Mel Gibson (Payback(, one with Ben Stiller(Permanent Midnight), and thought she was on her way to bigger and better things in major Hollywood vehicles.  Both movies got some decent reviews, but neither was a blockbuster and Bello didn't get any exceptional recognition for her acting in them.  Most notably, neither film was the incredible artistic achievement that Bello claimed was her reason for wanting to do movies rather than TV.  ER was far more creative and well written than either of those films, IMO.

How true and the same thing happen to Shelly Long on Cheers, which her reasons were because it allowed more time with her family and bigger payouts than TV did. However, she ended up in a lot of flops. Then you have actors that "leave" for other series that they were convinced would get them more pay and more attention say: Terry Ferrel on Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. Granted the show was 1 year from ending it was pretty well known middle of season 6 it was going to end with 7 seasons. However, she only did 4 years on Ted Danson's new series on CBS and was basically fired because of dispute over a contract. You also had well known teen actors like Jonathan Taylor Thomas who wanted to leave Home Improvement to focus on school. Yet, failed to mention what he really needed was a few good payouts so he be fine financially while he attended school. Which pissed off not only Tim Allen, but several studios including Disney because he wouldn't be truthful with them. 

Grimes threaten to walk because he HATED how Morris was being written and the show did a double take and started bringing him more towards a conflicted person who actually "learned" from his mistakes and became a good doctor. Entertainment business is an odd bunch. You get people who do things right like Clooney and the show fails them. You get people like Caruso, Somers and Long and it backfires on them. Then you get people like Ferrel, Thomas who couldn't be truthful with things and pissed people off for several years. 

[debraran]

4 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

George wasn't a big star before ER, but, by the second season, he had tons of film opportunities, some of which he had to turn down.  He filmed Batman and Robin in the middle of the night so he could remain on ER.  TPTB did accommodate his filming schedule somewhat, but, mostly, he had to fit feature films in around his ER responsibilities.  Plenty of 'star's who broke out on TV ended up leaving their shows prematurely in a quest for bigger and better things, usually in the movies; but George made it clear from the start that he was grateful to ER and was going to honor his contract.  He also let them know early on that he was not going to sign an extension and would leave after 5 seasons.  You'd think TPTB would've done a better job writing him off the show given that they had a couple of years' notice.

A couple of actors whose profiles were raised considerably by a TV show who then chose to turn their backs on it are David Caruso in NYPD Blue and Suzanne Somers on Three's Company.  What they didn't realize, and Clooney did, was that they were part of an ensemble and that there were other actors on their shows who could carry the ball if they left; so no reason to storm off prematurely (Caruso) or demand a huge pay hike (Somers).  In both cases, they left the shows that made them stars and never achieved that kind of acclaim again while the shows they dissed went on successfully for years afterward.

 

I agree, re Clooney, always classy with giving homage to the exposure they gave him and how good the show was. He cheated  with learning lines and costars joked how his script was written on various things on the show to help him.  I guess he learned because he did plenty of movies later.  : )

He said in one interview "

“I knew at some point I was going to have to do better work. And then I got a show called Sisters that actually gave me something to do a little bit. And I was on the Warner Brothers lot under contract, and then ER came around. And that’s a life changer.” Clooney said ER was a lucky break, but it didn’t just fall in his lap. He told The Hollywood Reporter he went to the Warner Brothers casting office every day and asked for new scripts. When ER was presented to him, he knew this was the show for him. “It was a great script, it’s beautifully done, and also we got the sweetest time slot in the world.”

I think most fans couldn't figure out why the writing for Carol and Doug was so bad from his decline with Ricky and Jao and the year after with so much notice. Sometimes an actor gets in a tiff and leaves (Mandy Patinkin/some MASH actors) for instance and the writing has to be faster.

Sometimes a star leaves and it still is good, like with The Good Wife becoming the The Good Fight without Julianna Margulies. She wanted more money but it did just fine. I only watched the first year since it was a paid for show after that but it seemed very good and still on.

 

 

 

 

 

[wknt3]

3 hours ago, doodlebug said:

George wasn't a big star before ER, but, by the second season, he had tons of film opportunities, some of which he had to turn down.  He filmed Batman and Robin in the middle of the night so he could remain on ER.  TPTB did accommodate his filming schedule somewhat, but, mostly, he had to fit feature films in around his ER responsibilities.  Plenty of 'star's who broke out on TV ended up leaving their shows prematurely in a quest for bigger and better things, usually in the movies; but George made it clear from the start that he was grateful to ER and was going to honor his contract.  He also let them know early on that he was not going to sign an extension and would leave after 5 seasons.  You'd think TPTB would've done a better job writing him off the show given that they had a couple of years' notice.

A couple of actors whose profiles were raised considerably by a TV show who then chose to turn their backs on it are David Caruso in NYPD Blue and Suzanne Somers on Three's Company.  What they didn't realize, and Clooney did, was that they were part of an ensemble and that there were other actors on their shows who could carry the ball if they left; so no reason to storm off prematurely (Caruso) or demand a huge pay hike (Somers).  In both cases, they left the shows that made them stars and never achieved that kind of acclaim again while the shows they dissed went on successfully for years afterward.

I agree with most of this. I only take issue with minor point. Caruso definitely and memorably hurt his career, but saying he "never" achieved that kind of success again?

I'm going to have to disagree...

Edited October 26, 2020 by wknt3

[Growsonwalls]

The stigma for daytime soap actors used to be even bigger. Like for me Anne Heche will always be Vicky and Marley on Another World. But she's one of the few actresses who remains proud of her daytime soap roots. Robin Wright would never mention her stint on Santa Barbara. Sherry Stringfield never really talked about her days on Guiding Light either. I will always have love for Blake Spalding. 

Anyway I think Maria Bello's departure took the writers by surprise because they actually set up a cliffhanger for her. There was an interest in Carter plus her drug addict ex returning. But the next season she was just gone.

I also wonder if Anna had stayed whether the show would have invested so heavily in Kellie Martin and Maura Tierney. 

[txhorns79]

21 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

just before his first big popular role as Falconer on Sisters (as a love interest for Sela Ward's character.

I could not find that show anywhere except DVD, so I recently did a rewatch (first time seeing it again since it aired on NBC).  The show's quality is very uneven, but when they are firing on all cylinders, it's a pretty darn good show.

On 10/24/2020 at 3:45 PM, Danny Franks said:

Neither character ever really added anything to the show, and the former drifted into inconsequential C-plots until he was fired while Cleo just became Benton's girlfriend.

I think that was a time when the cast was really bloated.  During Season 6, at its peak, there were 14 regulars.  The season before that, there were only 9 regular characters.  During the first season, there were only six regular characters.

[Danny Franks]

5 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Anyway I think Maria Bello's departure took the writers by surprise because they actually set up a cliffhanger for her. There was an interest in Carter plus her drug addict ex returning. But the next season she was just gone.

I also wonder if Anna had stayed whether the show would have invested so heavily in Kellie Martin and Maura Tierney. 

Yeah, that was one of the things I was most interested about seeing resolved, going into season five. Did Anna choose to leave and go back to the druggie ex? Because it seemed like such a negative, backwards step, and I think the show intended for it to be. Sadly, they ended up having to write her off with a single line of dialogue and a pitying look from Lucy as she immediately picks up on the fact that Carter had feelings for Anna.

I think the show probably wanted Kellie Martin regardless, as they seemed to feel like a new medical student regular was needed, but she did take up too much screen-time. I don't know the timeline, but it seems like Maura Tierney was brought on when they knew that Julianna Margulies was planning to leave and Martin clearly wasn't working out - they probably wouldn't have needed her character if Maria Bello had stayed and taken that central role.

2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I think that was a time when the cast was really bloated.  During Season 6, at its peak, there were 14 regulars.  The season before that, there were only 9 regular characters.  During the first season, there were only six regular characters.

There were definitely too many characters at that time, and the new regulars just weren't given much to do, except for Luka who definitely filled the 'brooding, handsome, damaged' hole that Clooney left.

Things just felt a little ungoverned and unplanned in those years - 'we'll add Lucy and Luka, to replace the medical student and hot guy roles... Oh, and Malucci as a young, hot-headed doctor. And Cleo as a paediatrician and Benton love interest. Also, Chen's coming back. And we're adding a new nurse character because Carol will be leaving. And we're making Romano a regular because we need an arsehole character.'

Still, they were all better than Pratt, who was one of the characters who truly turned me off the show (along with the general decline in writing and all the original characters leaving).

[RedbirdNelly]

9 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I could not find that show anywhere except DVD, so I recently did a rewatch (first time seeing it again since it aired on NBC).  The show's quality is very uneven, but when they are firing on all cylinders, it's a pretty darn good show.

 

I am thankful that this group has given me a chance to remember Sisters. 🙂 I haven't watched it since it aired. At the time Clooney was on, you could watch reruns on Lifetime, which I did. I agree the show was uneven but had these moments that were so good. Falconer/Teddy was one of them. Another was when Georgie finally lets herself respond emotionally to her son having cancer. I became hooked on the show the year I moved to a new city where I knew no one for law school. It was comfort food for me.  I digress. If I ever get to meet Clooney, I swear I'll end up telling him how much i loved him as Falconer. . . oh yeah and on that ER show.

It is odd that they did not write Doug out better given the advance notice. Having him blow things up and leave is not unbelievable for the character. But why make Carol pregnant with twins etc? Just seems like they could have done something better esp since the actor was not leaving in a huff so that provides some flexibility. 

 

[doodlebug]

10 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I could not find that show anywhere except DVD, so I recently did a rewatch (first time seeing it again since it aired on NBC).  The show's quality is very uneven, but when they are firing on all cylinders, it's a pretty darn good show.

I think that was a time when the cast was really bloated.  During Season 6, at its peak, there were 14 regulars.  The season before that, there were only 9 regular characters.  During the first season, there were only six regular characters.

I think that TPTB decided to just toss some characters at the wall and see what stuck rather than carefully planning the addition of new main cast members.  I would also argue that the show was at its best when there were only 6-8 main characters.  It was kind of Lord of the Flies/survival of the fittest when all the newbies came aboard in seasons 5 and 6.

Lucy was poorly thought out as a character, as was her relationship with Carter.  I think TPTB wanted Carter to become edgier, less of a puppy dog; but the writing for Carter/Lucy brought out the worst in him and the actor.  And Lucy's sneakiness and refusal to acknowledge her shortcomings as well as KM's history as a juvenile performer did her no favors, either. Angsty teen worked on Life Goes On, it was never going to fly on ER.  From what I understand, she was hired without any input from NW and no screen testing of them acting together.  They had anti-chemistry and it was not believable that either one of them could have possibly been attracted sexually to the other.  It seems like that could've been avoided with just a little forethought.  

Some actors, like GC, can pretty much summon up chemistry with any screen partner; most actors cannot.  NW and KM are definitely in the latter category.

In season 6, MT was simply a far better actor than any of the other newbies and she also spoke English as her first language.  GV is a pretty good actor, but, when he first started on ER, his English was marginal and he memorized his lines phonetically for the most part.  Very hard for the writers to plan storylines with a character who cannot speak English fluently and with full comprehension.  Then, ER managed to score Sally Field for a guest arc which rightfully got some critical praise and attention from the Emmys and we were off to the races as Abby/MT ate the show and the rest of the newbies were left in the dust.

Edited October 26, 2020 by doodlebug

[Kel Varnsen]

52 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

Lucy was poorly thought out as a character, as was her relationship with Carter.  I think TPTB wanted Carter to become edgier, less of a puppy dog; but the writing for Carter/Lucy brought out the worst in him and the actor.  And Lucy's sneakiness and refusal to acknowledge her shortcomings

I am just getting into the Lucy storylines and I don't really see the point of what they are doing. I like the idea that Carter might be a bad teacher, since he seemed naturally good at his job and Benton was super hands off. But Lucy being the brainy student who is bad at actual patient care seems like a redo of what they did the previously year when Carter's student was that research scientist guy. Plus it seems hard to buy that Mark (who is supposed to be the heart and soul of the ER) wouldn't pick up on the fact that Lucy wasn't learning at the rate she was supposed to. Plus considering that Carter was only in his second year I would assume he would have someone he would have to report to as his teacher (like Mark or the Chief Resident) and if he wasn't performing on that aspect of his job, wouldn't someone catch it?

The Carrie trying to become fully time chief story is super annoying to. Mostly because I have lost count at how many times she gets whiney and frustrated and quits being the acting chief then goes right back to doing the work.

[RedbirdNelly]

43 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I am just getting into the Lucy storylines and I don't really see the point of what they are doing. I like the idea that Carter might be a bad teacher, since he seemed naturally good at his job and Benton was super hands off. But Lucy being the brainy student who is bad at actual patient care seems like a redo of what they did the previously year when Carter's student was that research scientist guy. Plus it seems hard to buy that Mark (who is supposed to be the heart and soul of the ER) wouldn't pick up on the fact that Lucy wasn't learning at the rate she was supposed to. Plus considering that Carter was only in his second year I would assume he would have someone he would have to report to as his teacher (like Mark or the Chief Resident) and if he wasn't performing on that aspect of his job, wouldn't someone catch it?

The Carrie trying to become fully time chief story is super annoying to. Mostly because I have lost count at how many times she gets whiney and frustrated and quits being the acting chief then goes right back to doing the work.

the ironic thing is the brainy research guy in prior year was played by Chad Lowe, who played the love interest for KM's character on Life Goes On. 

[WendyCR72]

Carter was not a great teacher, so I am not entirely excusing him, but Lucy would also lie and claim to know things she didn't - and would push back fairly regularly when someone would try to direct on how to proceed with A, B, or C. If one cannot be honest with their instructor, the fact that she was not learning what she should was also partially her fault, too.

Hence, when Lucy died, while the arc was extremely well acted and harrowing, as a character, I was more than glad to see the back of Lucy Knight.

[readster]

1 hour ago, WendyCR72 said:

Carter was not a great teacher, so I am not entirely excusing him, but Lucy would also lie and claim to know things she didn't - and would push back fairly regularly when someone would try to direct on how to proceed with A, B, or C. If one cannot be honest with their instructor, the fact that she was not learning what she should was also partially her fault, too.

Hence, when Lucy died, while the arc was extremely well acted and harrowing, as a character, I was more than glad to see the back of Lucy Knight.

Right and it didn't allow Carter to grow as a teacher himself. He was very knowledgable and knew things other doctors might not think of. He also was taught by a good teacher, but sadly, his students lied to him, not just Lucy. They also had no interest in either surgery or emergency medician. They wanted "their own way" and sadly, Carter got taken for the ride and it backfired on them both. I can't think of the one doctor's name who was more interested in psychology, but had to do an ER rotation and turned out to have a latex allergy. If Carter would have been: "I get this isn't want you want, but you do NEED this rotation or you won't get to do anything." He would have learned of his latex allergy sooner and gone from there. OF course Carol protecting Lucy and not trying to help her with her IV (granted not her job), but would have been: "Carter, Knight needs to know how to do IV, she just can't get it straight." There would have been a lot of time saved and Carter would have learned to focus more on his students "needs" and their "wants" and would have been better for it. Of course, Peter, Mark, Kerry, while making mistakes were NEVER called out on their failings unless it was Mark's pre-clampsy mother, Kerry being an idiot too focused on her personal life or Peter wouldn't have been taken by his superiors the way he did and either quit or sued. It would have been better in the long run. Of course same goes for Morris, sorry, I get he didn't really WANT to be a doctor, it was all his dad threatening to cut him off, ect. However, for us to "believe" another med student carried him all the way to being a resident? Don't think so.

[doodlebug]

2 hours ago, readster said:

Right and it didn't allow Carter to grow as a teacher himself. He was very knowledgable and knew things other doctors might not think of. He also was taught by a good teacher, but sadly, his students lied to him, not just Lucy. They also had no interest in either surgery or emergency medician. They wanted "their own way" and sadly, Carter got taken for the ride and it backfired on them both. I can't think of the one doctor's name who was more interested in psychology, but had to do an ER rotation and turned out to have a latex allergy. If Carter would have been: "I get this isn't want you want, but you do NEED this rotation or you won't get to do anything." He would have learned of his latex allergy sooner and gone from there. OF course Carol protecting Lucy and not trying to help her with her IV (granted not her job), but would have been: "Carter, Knight needs to know how to do IV, she just can't get it straight." There would have been a lot of time saved and Carter would have learned to focus more on his students "needs" and their "wants" and would have been better for it. Of course, Peter, Mark, Kerry, while making mistakes were NEVER called out on their failings unless it was Mark's pre-clampsy mother, Kerry being an idiot too focused on her personal life or Peter wouldn't have been taken by his superiors the way he did and either quit or sued. It would have been better in the long run. Of course same goes for Morris, sorry, I get he didn't really WANT to be a doctor, it was all his dad threatening to cut him off, ect. However, for us to "believe" another med student carried him all the way to being a resident? Don't think so.

Csrter's med student, who I think was called Henry, wanted to go into research.  He often skipped out of the ER to go to his lab and work on his project.  As noted above, he was played by Chad Lowe, who also played Kellie Martin's doomed first love on Life Goes On.

[PepSinger]

58 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

Csrter's med student, who I think was called Henry, wanted to go into research.  He often skipped out of the ER to go to his lab and work on his project.  As noted above, he was played by Chad Lowe, who also played Kellie Martin's doomed first love on Life Goes On.

I liked that they brought him back in Season 11 in episode where he works for the drug company that causes a girl's new kidney transplant to fail. They also brought back Ruby in S11, too.

[ShortyMac]

45 minutes ago, PepSinger said:

I liked that they brought him back in Season 11 in episode where he works for the drug company that causes a girl's new kidney transplant to fail. They also brought back Ruby in S11, too.

Henry ended up giving up research and became a neurologist.

[PepSinger]

23 minutes ago, ShortyMac said:

Henry ended up giving up research and became a neurologist.

Ah, I think I'm thinking of Chad Lowe's character, then.

[Dr.OO7]

On 10/25/2020 at 10:55 AM, RedbirdNelly said:

huge thank you for the Sisters call out. I LOVED Falconer on Sisters and cried, gushed when he died. He and Sela had great chemistry. I

I couldn't watch ER's first season because I was so upset about him being killed off on "Sisters".

On 10/25/2020 at 5:35 PM, doodlebug said:

You'd think TPTB would've done a better job writing him off the show given that they had a couple of years' notice

I've never forgiven them for how poorly that was done, indeed because of how long they knew it was coming.

16 hours ago, RedbirdNelly said:

It is odd that they did not write Doug out better given the advance notice. Having him blow things up and leave is not unbelievable for the character. But why make Carol pregnant with twins etc? Just seems like they could have done something better esp since the actor was not leaving in a huff so that provides some flexibility. 

And by that point, Doug had gotten his act together personally and professionally, so even that didn't make any sense.

[Danny Franks]

7 hours ago, readster said:

Right and it didn't allow Carter to grow as a teacher himself. He was very knowledgable and knew things other doctors might not think of. He also was taught by a good teacher, but sadly, his students lied to him, not just Lucy. They also had no interest in either surgery or emergency medician. They wanted "their own way" and sadly, Carter got taken for the ride and it backfired on them both. I can't think of the one doctor's name who was more interested in psychology, but had to do an ER rotation and turned out to have a latex allergy. If Carter would have been: "I get this isn't want you want, but you do NEED this rotation or you won't get to do anything." He would have learned of his latex allergy sooner and gone from there. OF course Carol protecting Lucy and not trying to help her with her IV (granted not her job), but would have been: "Carter, Knight needs to know how to do IV, she just can't get it straight." There would have been a lot of time saved and Carter would have learned to focus more on his students "needs" and their "wants" and would have been better for it. Of course, Peter, Mark, Kerry, while making mistakes were NEVER called out on their failings unless it was Mark's pre-clampsy mother, Kerry being an idiot too focused on her personal life or Peter wouldn't have been taken by his superiors the way he did and either quit or sued. It would have been better in the long run. Of course same goes for Morris, sorry, I get he didn't really WANT to be a doctor, it was all his dad threatening to cut him off, ect. However, for us to "believe" another med student carried him all the way to being a resident? Don't think so.

And Carter was shown to be a pushover who couldn't handle conflict with a colleague, even a med student. He often ended up looking foolish and impotent. 

George Henry basically dismissed anything Carter had to teach him, Lucy lied and when Carter tried to lay down the law she just dismissed him. Greg Pratt got away with behaviour he should have been fired for when he first arrived and Carter shrugged it off.

There's a scene were Abby can't find a bit of kit because Luca's French sneak-thief girlfriend, who he got a job in supplies, hasn't put stuff where it's supposed to be. When Luca tells Carter off for being pissed that she's incompetent, all Carter can muster is a couple of passive-aggressive remarks.

The bit with the young doctor not knowing how to do stuff was executed much better on Scrubs - JD has Carla do procedures for him in the pilot episode because he's scared to touch any patients. Either she goes off and tells Doctor Cox or someone else does, because later in the episode Cox just pulls it out of nowhere - "You want some real advice? If they find out the nurses are doing your procedures for you, your ass'll be kicked outta here so quick, it'll make your head spin."

That's it. No big speech, no drama, just 'I know you're lying and you need to cut it out.'

I guess I don't really know what the writers were going for with Carter as a teacher, or what Noah Wyle was going for with some of his acting choices. Was he supposed to be bad at it? Was it supposed to be funny? I guess in seasons 4 and 5 that's okay, because he's still a young doctor and taking on more than he's ready for. But by season 8 and 9? He needs to be better.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Danny Franks

[Kel Varnsen]

A couple of funny things I realized last night. First off Carrie is really like an angry version of Amy Santiago from Brooklyn 99. What with the binders and the organizational systems.

Also I noticed something hilarious when watching the episode where Carter and Lucy search for the dad with the rare blood they needed to give to his daughter. Well it is funny in 2020 because it is called The Good Fight and Juliana Margulies is hardly in it at all.

[Growsonwalls]

I think the write-off for Doug was because Julianna Marguiles' contract was also ending after five years. I think they thought they would be written off together, but Marguiles extended for a year. So they had to come up with a storyline for her. I thought it was creepy that Luka was so fixated on the twins. I mean ... he's not the father. It's like he wanted to slide right in immediately and take over as the father.

They really lucked out that George Clooney was willing to come back for a cameo and also for the final season. It gave the Doug character some closure. 

[Hava]

22 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

I thought it was creepy that Luka was so fixated on the twins.

It was such a poor way of introducing a new main character. Luka being in love with Carol did his character no favors, IMO. As you said, it was creepy and also desperate. What I really didn't like is how animated and affectionate he was with Carol compared with how withholding and closed off he seemed to be with Abby. I'm not sure if that was intentional acting choice, but it was a weird shift in his character.

[Danny Franks]

22 minutes ago, Hava said:

It was such a poor way of introducing a new main character. Luka being in love with Carol did his character no favors, IMO. As you said, it was creepy and also desperate. What I really didn't like is how animated and affectionate he was with Carol compared with how withholding and closed off he seemed to be with Abby. I'm not sure if that was intentional acting choice, but it was a weird shift in his character.

It kind of telegraphed Luka's character and the arc he was going to go through as a Doug replacement. Hell, there were even the same shots of him standing moodily in the snow or on dark streets, pondering his meaningless, bitter existence.

I always figured Luka was being cruelly honest when he told Abby "you're not that pretty, you're not that special." I never bought that he loved her, just that he found her attractive enough to get involved with. He always seemed distracted and disinterested. I don't know if that was supposed to be Luka's maturity when compared to Carter being jealous and spiky about them being together, but it didn't really work.

[Growsonwalls]

2 hours ago, Hava said:

It was such a poor way of introducing a new main character. Luka being in love with Carol did his character no favors, IMO. As you said, it was creepy and also desperate. What I really didn't like is how animated and affectionate he was with Carol compared with how withholding and closed off he seemed to be with Abby. I'm not sure if that was intentional acting choice, but it was a weird shift in his character.

Well I think Luka and Abby ended up together because of an oops baby. I never got the sense that there was a deep love between them. Even their ending was unsettled -- she cheated on him, and he gets over it. Sort of. They weren't really given the loving farewell that other longtime cast members were given in the final season.

[WendyCR72]

1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

Well I think Luka and Abby ended up together because of an oops baby. I never got the sense that there was a deep love between them. Even their ending was unsettled -- she cheated on him, and he gets over it. Sort of. They weren't really given the loving farewell that other longtime cast members were given in the final season.

I was surprised as hell - but in a good way, as I detest Abby - that she never popped up in the S15 big hurrah as so many other characters did.

[readster]

12 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

I was surprised as hell - but in a good way, as I detest Abby - that she never popped up in the S15 big hurrah as so many other characters did.

Right, she did in Lela's last episode, but her line: "Maybe you need a drink." Was not only so out of place, but you could tell MT was just doing it for a $15K paycheck for 3 minutes of screen time. 

[Dr.OO7]

On 10/27/2020 at 6:46 PM, Growsonwalls said:

Well I think Luka and Abby ended up together because of an oops baby. I never got the sense that there was a deep love between them

Me neither. Although their second go-round at a relationship was light years better than the first, it always seemed like it only happened (both onscreen and in the writer's room) because they'd dated everyone else in the hospital and had to start all over again.

[CrazyInAlabama]

My guess is that eventually Luka and Abby would have moved, that they were doing at the end of the episode, and finally broke up, but stayed away from Chicago.    Abby would be much better, and healthier if she never reconnected with her mother or brother.   

I always hoped that someday Susan would get little Suzy (her niece by sister Chloe) back.  However, the ridiculous way they left everything hanging with Chloe, and Little Suzy was ridiculous.  

Edited October 29, 2020 by CrazyInAlabama