Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Mari]

You know, that's actually an interesting point. I obviously don't think A&E were going for this, but for fanwank's sake, what if the reason Robin makes these absolutely stupid decisions like thinking it's honorable to pay a "debt" by endangering his child is because he actually has no fricking clue what "honor" is, because Marian was his whole sense of honor/moral compass? Like, he doesn't have that thing inside of him telling him "nope, stealing a starving family's horse when you don't even need it is wrong" / "no, endangering your child because the son of a dude that once skinned you alive but then decided to stop asks you to is not the honorable thing to do" so he's just kind of flying blind? Like he doesn't actually know what it is, at all, so he just goes with whatever sounds most "honorable" at the moment even if it makes no sense!

 

 

Robin didn't give her the true facts or a choice in the matter and that's a huge problem. Now she's frozen and he's off screwing the other woman just a few days later. In fact, Regina said that the only way to save Marian is to forget her and Robin has said that he doesn't care. That's gross on a whole new level. He couldn't even try for a few days before chasing after Regina and essentially ending what is believed to be his wife's only chance at survival. 

Okay, I guess I'm breaking my "not thinking too much about Robin" rule, but this connected with something that was said in another thread that kind of stuck in my head.  I'd give credit to the observer, but I'm afraid I don't remember who it is or which thread it was in.

 

Anyway, the observation was that because of Robin's backstory--that he was a shiftless, petty, amoral horse thief until Marian--meant that the "soulmate" Tinkerbelle found for Regina was not the man who stole from the rich to give to the poor and stood up to tyrants.  He was a shiftless, petty, amoral horse thief.  Basically, a small man with small ambitions and small ethics.

 

Maybe Robin is one of those people who become what the people around him are.  The theory that Serena mentioned, that Marian was Robin's entire moral compass?  That could work--some people do become whatever the people around them are. 

 

It would also make sense, then, for him to fall in love so quickly with Regina, to make the questionable decisions he's made since he lost Marian, and make sense that he's got so little interest in helping Marian.  He's got a completely new moral compass and world center.

 

(Of course, I also think this is a effect of the A&E Rule of Unintended Storytelling.)

[Rumsy4]

Let's look at Milah. She left her husband for another man because she loved the new guy and her husband was making her miserable. As someone who'd been stuck in that miserable relationship, she'd know better than anyone that sticking it out just for the sake of old feelings or even a child doesn't really work and that maybe it makes things worse. Milah would be the last person to want to face that kind of situation again. So if Hook were honest about things and I believe he absolutely would be, their decision regarding how to go forward might be easier for both of them than many would suspect. 

 

That is a brilliant observation, KAOS. Milah wouldn't want Hook to resent her the way she came to resent her husband. I think she is quite capable of making a life for herself once the initial shock and pain is over, and Killian and Emma would by no means leave her helpless until she gets her bearings. Of course, they'll also have to keep her safe from Rumple, because he's still not over her "slight".

 

You know, that's actually an interesting point. I obviously don't think A&E were going for this, but for fanwank's sake, what if the reason Robin makes these absolutely stupid decisions like thinking it's honorable to pay a "debt" by endangering his child is because he actually has no fricking clue what "honor" is, because Marian was his whole sense of honor/moral compass? 

 

 That is exactly what it looks like, Serena. But that's probably not what A&E had in mind. 

[Shanna Marie]

He then made some pretty radical changes the other way, too.  And like you said--it's possible to doubt that his reform was well done, or is permanent, but that is the story that we've been told so far.  Plus, when it comes right down to it, 100 (or 300) years is a long time to convince yourself that someone was ABCD, when really, they were ACDB.    We often remember people differently than we experience them, and that would have to be more pronounced with the incredibly prolonged time Hook would have thought she was dead.

I think those 200 or so years are a huge factor, even if he hadn't made a couple of drastic changes along the way. Even if he'd lived a fairly quiet, ordinary life, after two hundred additional years of life experience, he would be a different person than the one Milah knew. She ran away with a brash kid, and that's not really what he is anymore. He's been through a lot, and all those experiences have shaped him along the way. It would be really off-balance if she were brought from the past to the present because she wouldn't have had those years of change. It would be a moment for her but multiple lifetimes for him. Even if they tried to pick up where they left off, I'm not sure he could even find the place where they left off. He's had centuries to imagine her, and yes, the image in his head now probably bears little resemblance to the Milah he actually knew. I can imagine a stunned but joyful reunion, followed quickly by some "who the hell are you now?" awkwardness. It would be ten times worse than going back to your high school reunion and finding that your classmates are still at the same exact point in life as when you last saw them, while you've actually gone through those twenty years and grown up.

 

And I don't think it would make him shallow to not want to drop everything he has in his life now for someone he hasn't seen in two hundred years. I could see him possibly taking a time out from Emma just to get his head clear -- kind of the way Emma declared that she wasn't going to even think about trying to choose between Neal and Hook because she was focusing on Henry. It would make sense to take a step back and get a sense for things before deciding what to do (while giving the women the chance to decide what they want -- Milah might have no interest in him the way he is now) and then make a firm decision and stick to it. Maybe that's what Robin should have done rather than picking a side and then waffling. I doubt Marian would have understood, given what Regina did to her, but then that would have given Marian the option of deciding she didn't want him back.

[kitticup]

There is a fanfic called Past Tense that has a Resurrection premise with both Milah and Graham coming back. Milah is not being written as a shrew. Hook is with Emma.

I think that Hook would not go back to Milah. He's had 200 years to grieve her death and move on. Hook is an all or nothing guy. Once he made the decision to move on, he's not the type to go back.

[Beezel]

Plus, maybe meeting her predecessor would clue Belle in a little

 

Absolutely this! Also, It always bugged me to no end that Belle didn't seem like she could even be bothered reacting to the fact that Rumple murdered Milah. I would LOVE for her to have to deal face-to-face with Milah and gain some awareness  of the wrong she's doing by just standing idly by to the shitty things Rumple has done/ is doing. It's wishful thinking to believe that would even work, though. Girlfriend needs about ten more sessions with that "evil" mirror AND a full-scale intervention like the one Snow got back in the Enchanted Forest in S1 (though Belle has like 0 friends at this point, so not sure who would come), and realistically, that still probably wouldn't work. :/

 

As for Graham?  Well, Regina seems to see him breaking up with her as one more thing done "to" her.  In her head, he--and Emma--deserved what they got.

 

 

Ugh. And clearly, Regina totally feels the same way since according to the show she's such a wonderful, heroic person who can't be bothered with remorse. Honestly, the Graham thing still vexes me, because it's not as though he's been completely forgotten. Emma mentioned him this season when she was listing guys she's recently lost (Though admittedly, they were just on the cusp of being romantically involved.) So, presumably she remembers him. And it's not as if it's a huge stretch realizing the truth there. At the time, "natural causes" might have worked as an explanation for Emma, but I'm still surprised S1 Henry didn't point to the obvious right after Graham died. After all, he knew that Graham was remembering his past and Regina wouldn't take too kindly to that. And after Emma accepted Regina was the evil queen, it should have been fairly obvious what went down.

 

Truly, I guess it's  totally laughable to expect that Emma would be too bothered with what Regina did to Graham, when she so readily accepts all the shitty things Regina has done to her and her family. I just  find it beyond frustrating that they had that moment where Emma mentioned him and was sad about his death, but they have (and never will) address the fact that Regina killed someone Emma could have loved just because she was jealous of her. Emma should have been throwing that shit in her face left and right, when Regina got on her case about saving Marian. 

 

Speaking of Marian, I know it's a lot of to hope for. But I'm hoping that Marian doesn't die/ gets unfrozen. Not because I give a shit how this affects Regina/Robin. I agree that Marian seems smart enough to accept that Robin is a creep, that she wants nothing to do with. I just want her to take Roland and find a healthy relationship with someone in Storybrooke (though, I have no idea who she would have chemistry with?) or maybe get hold of an elusive bean and get the fuck out of the there or find out with Elsa and Anna so she can get back to the Enchanted Forest and find a  healthy relationship. At this point, I just wish Marian all the happy endings  since she is currently the smartest person in the whole show. 

Edited November 16, 2014 by Beezel

[kili]

Not because I give a shit how this affects Regina/Robin. I agree that Marian seems smart enough to accept that Robin is a creep, that she wants nothing to do with. I just want her to take Roland and find a healthy relationship with someone in Storybrooke (though, I have no idea who she would have chemistry with?)

 

How about she get a nice dog and name her Perdita? Maid Cricket for the win!

 

I just want a happy ending for Marian and I no longer want it with that douche canoe Robin.

Edited November 16, 2014 by kili

[Rumsy4]

There is a fanfic called Past Tense that has a Resurrection premise with both Milah and Graham coming back. Milah is not being written as a shrew. Hook is with Emma.

It's a little bleak in tone, but very interesting so far. Thanks for the recommendation!

[FurryFury]

You know the show's really badly-written when faced with the question "What would Hook do if Milah came back?" the only answer I can give is "Whatever serves the ongoing plot better".

[SilverShadow]

Ugh. And clearly, Regina totally feels the same way since according to the show she's such a wonderful, heroic person who can't be bothered with remorse. Honestly, the Graham thing still vexes me, because it's not as though he's been completely forgotten. Emma mentioned him this season when she was listing guys she's recently lost (Though admittedly, they were just on the cusp of being romantically involved.) So, presumably she remembers him. And it's not as if it's a huge stretch realizing the truth there. At the time, "natural causes" might have worked as an explanation for Emma, but I'm still surprised S1 Henry didn't point to the obvious right after Graham died. After all, he knew that Graham was remembering his past and Regina wouldn't take too kindly to that. And after Emma accepted Regina was the evil queen, it should have been fairly obvious what went down.

 

Henry did point to the obvious in episode 8. He was convinced Regina killed him. Emma believed it was a heart attack since she was still in denial mode. But after season 1 it was basically dropped.

[Shanna Marie]

Thinking more about the "Regina brings Milah to the future" scenario, something occurred to me:

 

Robin was able to believe Marian's return because she was only missing, presumed dead. He never knew her actual fate and never saw a body, and it had only been about four years at the most since he last saw her (aside from the curse). But Hook saw Milah's heart ripped out of her chest and crushed, he held her as she used her last breath to tell him she loved him, and he gave her a burial at sea. And all that happened a couple of hundred years ago.

 

So if Regina did manage to find a way to travel in time and fake Milah's death in a way that didn't alter events at all otherwise, so that Hook is still in present-day Storybrooke and in a relationship with Emma, if Milah showed up, I don't think Hook's first consideration would be about what it meant to his relationship. His reaction wouldn't be, "Milah, my love, you've returned to me! Sorry, Emma." Nor would it be, "Good to see you, but I've moved on." Not even, "Now I'm conflicted between my two loves." It would be more like, "What the bloody hell is going on here?" or "What dark magic is this?"

 

He'd probably first assume that she was some kind of imposter, like the way Cora and Zelena shape-changed. The fact that his mental impression of Milah has probably strayed away from accuracy over the centuries wouldn't help the imposter belief. Or she might be some kind of ghost or zombie. By the time he figured out that she was real and what had actually happened, they'd have had time to get reacquainted and figure out where to go from there, so there'd be no back and forthing.

 

It would probably all totally backfire on Regina. Rumple would be pissed at her. Belle would be hurt. It probably wouldn't derail Emma's relationship with Hook, and Regina would have one more person to have to share Henry with if his other grandmother was back in the picture. 

 

Of course, all of this is outrageously hypothetical, and I seriously doubt the show will go there. But it has been an interesting thought exercise.

[Camera One]

It would be more like, "What the bloody hell is going on here?" or "What dark magic is this?"

 

There could be other ways to do it.  Emma and Hook could go through another time portal, ending up in the time period of "The Crocodile".  They could stumble upon The Magician's house, where Hook sees two Milahs inside.  He asks the Magician what is going on, and he says he knows Rumple will kill Milah, so he is sending a fake apparition double to the ship to be killed, so he can save the life of the real Milah, who's his daughter.  The Magician gives Hook the choice to stay and take care of Milah and save her life, or go with Emma.  Emma decides to make the sacrifice after seeing the love for Milah in Hook's eyes and she goes to the barn, re-starts the time portal and jumps in, returning her to the future.  If the writers were really intent on getting rid of Hook, that's one way to do it with a real tear-jerker ending.  Alternatively, they could just kill him off while trying to help à la Neal.  But definite thought exercise, since the writers have no intention of killing off Hook.

[Shanna Marie]

You know, the scary thing about this show is that if Regina did travel in time to bring Milah back for the sole purpose of ruining things for Emma, it would be considered a good deed because she'd saved a life, and she'd be hailed as a hero and thanked. However, Emma would still be a life ruiner who needed to apologize and beg for Regina's forgiveness and friendship for unintentionally messing up Regina's relationship by saving Marian just to save an innocent woman from execution.

[Emma]

Snowing for parents of the year. (Side eyeing you both so hard)

There better be a nice big fat pay off for Captain Swan.

[Rumsy4]

Snowing were thrown under the bus to fit the Frozen arc, and parallel Elsa's parents.

[Emma]

Charming I would agree just joined the club but Snow has been awful since Echo Cave.

What was that line she had last night? Before we were interrupted ... gee sorry Snow that saving your daughter got in the way of hearing about crypt sex.

[Mari]

This woman who has treated her adopted son like crap, as well as her step-daughter, gets to give parenting advice to Snow and Charming? Seriously?

Yes.  In the same episode she admitted to abusing the aforementioned son.

[scenicbyway]

So Emma now true loves herself, true loves Henry, loves her parents but before she can true love Hook, I'm guessing she'll have to love EVERYONE ELSE in Storybrooke as well.  Hook and Emma have been building for 2 seasons, Outlaw Queen has been a thing, sorta, since last spring and yet they've gone to the "next level."  I get that pacing is different for all of the couples (Rumbelle has been in the works for hundreds of years) it just seems like Regina is still getting it really easy, where Emma's always being distracted by the current "evil" on the town.  Emma gets a minute alone with Hook but Regina takes an entire night with Hood, who's still married?  I don't get it.

[Serena]

You know, I don't actually mind it. Yes, OQ have gotten "everything" with no build up... but I actually like the build up and excitement, OQ's writing sucks, and I'm sure they're headed towards some kind of tragedy. Being happy in the middle of the season=being miserable in the finale. Being miserable in the middle=happy at the end.

[Souris]

So Emma now true loves herself, true loves Henry, loves her parents but before she can true love Hook, I'm guessing she'll have to love EVERYONE ELSE in Storybrooke as well. 

 

Especially that one dwarf she despises.

[Joanh23]

Yep I think Robin/Regina are getting so many happy moments right now that things have to fall apart again by 4x11 so they will have all the angst/drama for 4B.  

[YaddaYadda]

Marian won't stay a popsicle for the rest of her life no matter how much Robin wishes it, because you know deep down, he is cursing that pesky wife of his for coming back from the dead and ruining his fun with the bold and audacious evil queen.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Especially that one dwarf she despises.

I'm wondering in every scene we see now with Emma and the dwarves in it we'll see Emma side-eye one of them discretely.

 

 

Marian won't stay a popsicle for the rest of her life no matter how much Robin wishes it, because you know deep down, he is cursing that pesky wife of his for coming back from the dead and ruining his fun with the bold and audacious evil queen.

Yes... I'm interested in seeing who does the ATL, because unless there's some big contrivance or character twist, it ain't gonna be Robin. Are they doing to do the Maleficent thing and have Regina kiss her forehead? That's seriously something they'd do.

Edited November 17, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Guest]

 

Yes... I'm interested in seeing who does the ATL, because unless there's some big contrivance or character twist, it ain't gonna be Robin. Are they doing to do the Maleficent thing and have Regina kiss her forehead? That's seriously something they'd do.

 

There has to be a different solution because they froze all of Arendelle and they can't TLK everybody.  Very convenient that they moved Hans to the palace because Once can't leave him frozen.

[RadioGirl27]

So Emma now true loves herself, true loves Henry, loves her parents but before she can true love Hook, I'm guessing she'll have to love EVERYONE ELSE in Storybrooke as well.

I'm all for the slow burn of a relationship when it feels organic, and, until Rocky Road, the pace of Captain Swan was good. Sometimes it was frustrating and seemed a bit one-sided, but it made sense. The date should have been the culmination of this process. But then, instead of keeping the normal pace, we have the stupid hand plot and the blackmail and now the stolen heart. And this is not an organic evolution. It's angst for the sake of angst. It's putting contrived obstacles in their way instead of exploring the relationship in an adult way.

[Curio]

Marian won't stay a popsicle for the rest of her life no matter how much Robin wishes it, because you know deep down, he is cursing that pesky wife of his for coming back from the dead and ruining his fun with the bold and audacious evil queen.

 

Which begs the question: How in the world is Robin going to explain that he had sex (twice!) with the Evil Queen while she was frozen? Are the writers going to completely ignore that confrontation and instead have him sorrowfully explain that he tried to love her and unfreeze her, but he was just more in love with Regina? And that she kind of needs to go back to the Enchanted Forest now because it'll be awkward if she sticks around?

 

There is literally no good scenario where Marian comes out of this without feeling like absolute shit.

[regularlyleaded]

Yes... I'm interested in seeing who does the ATL

Okay, I'm gonna ask the dumb question: What is "the ATL"? I fly in and out of "the ATL" (Atlanta, Georgia) all the time and I'm 100% sure that's not what you're talking about ;) My best guess is "Act of True Love". Yes?

[KAOS Agent]

 

But then, instead of keeping the normal pace, we have the stupid hand plot and the blackmail and now the stolen heart. And this is not an organic evolution. 

 

The hand plot never even needed to happen because what was the point of the mutually assured destruction blackmail if Rumpel's just going to steal Hook's heart and make him his puppet anyway? Without this needless plot contrivance for angst or whatever, Rumpel would have just stolen Hook's heart to begin with and made him deal with the apprentice that way. Honestly, I just hate needless drama when there's plenty of drama to be had without the contrivance. The only thing that keeps me from being just annoyed as hell about the whole thing is that I adore the Rumpel/Hook relationship dynamic. They are so much fun to watch together.

[KingOfHearts]

I can confirm - it is indeed Act of True Love. 

[YaddaYadda]

But then, instead of keeping the normal pace, we have the stupid hand plot and the blackmail and now the stolen heart.

 

It might be contrived and stupid, but I'm pretty okay with the message behind it being about self-acceptance and believing you can really change.  I mean a show of hand if anyone who watches this show ever thought Hook's heart would be all red and glowy.  I was expecting something semi-dark at least.

 

It's almost like a scale for villains.  Rumple's heart is probably black as coal because well he is Rumple, Regina's heart is battered and Hook who is also considered a villain has a healthy normal looking heart.  It's pretty much proof that Rumple is completely wrong about Hook and more importantly, Hook is wrong about Hook.

 

It's all about perception.  The way we perceive ourselves is so wrong at times. 

 

The hand plot didn't have to happen, but then again, it's all about Hook's self-worth issues, the same way Emma's issues were about that and her place in her family (though they will never explore that issue).  I joke that Hook is his own biggest fan, but that's clearly a wrong perception because he actually really dislikes himself.  He has enough fate to fight for Emma, but not enough to fight for himself. 

 

Maybe the show isn't as deep as I'd like to believe sometimes, but it's consistent with the portrayal of certain characters.  The minute Hook decided he wanted to change, nothing was going to stand in his way except for himself apparently.

[Guest]

The hand plot never even needed to happen because what was the point of the mutually assured destruction blackmail if Rumpel's just going to steal Hook's heart and make him his puppet anyway?

 

Snow Queen told Rumpel he needed the heart of someone that knew him before he was the Dark One after the blackmail.

[regularlyleaded]

Yes, I think it is the Act of True Love. I live in the ATL and the only thing that could break the ice curse here is the hot summer weather. We're under a freeze warning right now though.

Hehe, XrystalPond. I hear ya :) ...And it had been so pleasant the weekend before last.

Edited November 18, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[Mari]

Which begs the question: How in the world is Robin going to explain that he had sex (twice!) with the Evil Queen while she was frozen? Are the writers going to completely ignore that confrontation and instead have him sorrowfully explain that he tried to love her and unfreeze her, but he was just more in love with Regina? And that she kind of needs to go back to the Enchanted Forest now because it'll be awkward if she sticks around?

 

There is literally no good scenario where Marian comes out of this without feeling like absolute shit.

You're right- -I don't see a scenario where Marian has anything approaching a satisfying ending, which is pretty horrible, considering everything she was willing to do to make sure that Snow survived and Marian's unwillingness to put her family at risk.

 

I don't know that Robin ever will explain.  If/when Marian gets unfrozen, I don't expect to see much of any sort of fall-out between Robin and Marian.  I think they're going to have as much of it happen off-screen as possible.  I think if anything, we're going to get speeches about how hard Regina tried to help her, with grateful speeches/tears, depending on how it actually happens.

 

It might be contrived and stupid, but I'm pretty okay with the message behind it being about self-acceptance and believing you can really change.  I mean a show of hand if anyone who watches this show ever thought Hook's heart would be all red and glowy.  I was expecting something semi-dark at least.

 

It's almost like a scale for villains.  Rumple's heart is probably black as coal because well he is Rumple, Regina's heart is battered and Hook who is also considered a villain has a healthy normal looking heart.  It's pretty much proof that Rumple is completely wrong about Hook and more importantly, Hook is wrong about Hook.

Are my expectations too low if my theory about Hook's red, red, bright and shiny heart is that no one thought about what color it actually should be?  Since it wasn't a plot point?  Because I might like Hook well enough, but that did not look like the heart of someone with extensive pirate experience. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea behind him reforming and his self-perception--it's a good theory--but I just have very, very little faith in continuity on this show--particularly on the details.

[pezgirl7]

This is what Rumple's heart looks like:

http://ihaveagreatmemoryithink.tumblr.com/post/102889932797/someone-is-gunna-pull-out-rumples-heart-and-it-be

[kili]

You're right- -I don't see a scenario where Marian has anything approaching a satisfying ending, which is pretty horrible, considering everything she was willing to do to make sure that Snow survived and Marian's unwillingness to put her family at risk.

 

She might get a small bit of satisfaction if she has a "This is SPARTA" moment and kicks his a$$ out of her life, buys a sweet condo over-looking the bay and gets full custody of Roland.

 

I swear, if she gives up Roland because she is convinced of Robin/Regina perfection and because she never got a chance to know him (between being executed, whisked to the future and frozen), I will have a "This is SPARTA" moment with my TV.  Please, please, please don't let Regina revive her. I don't need her to be thankful to the woman who taunted her, murdered her and had sex with her husband while she was frozen.

[Minneapple]

Right now my favorite relationship on this show is Emma/Elsa. Since their first conversation on that ice wall, they've been just so genuinely nice and kind to each other, and supportive, that it's really something new and different and sparkly for this show. Yeah, Captain Swan has some of that with the added romantic angle, but there's such a great big CLOUD OF DOOM hanging over them that I just have to focus on Emma and Elsa. They bring out the best in each other. Note that Elsa has a disappeared sister who she is still worried about, but when Emma went missing her focus and worry turned to, well, Emma.

 

If I could beg the writers for one thing, anything, it would be a scene of Emma and Elsa just being regular girlfriends -- hanging out, doing makeovers, watching bad TV and drinking wine together, or something silly like going to a karaoke bar and getting drunk and singing along to "Like a Virgin." I would sacrifice small animals for that to happen. Okay, maybe not, but you get the picture.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Minneapple

[KAOS Agent]

I was thinking about how it would have worked out had Regina gone into that tavern and met Robin. He said he was a shiftless drunken thief at the time. How would Regina, who was raised a royal and whom we've seen repeatedly put down those of lower classes/economic backgrounds, deal with living life in a tent always on the run? This woman wouldn't know how to even do her own laundry or cook or be at all useful in terms of living a regular life. Add to that being stuck with a drunk loser with no moral code. That would have been a match made in heaven right there. Maybe Regina ought to be happy that the book's author made her turn around and run away.

Edited November 18, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

Plus Regina was married at the time.  Oh wait, never mind.  Not a problem.

[Camera One]

Four seasons, and it feels like the Emma/Elsa relationship is the first sustained friendship with actual time devoted to it and emotion behind it which wasn't one-off or a series of glorified cameo appearances.  Or maybe it has been too long.   They simply don't care about real friendships like Snow/Red.  Though not surprising when they don't even care about family relationships like Emma and her parents.   I don't count Emma/Regina or Snow/Regina as "friendship", no matter how much they hammer us on the head with it.  They're both far from being natural or earned.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Camera One

[FurryFury]

And then Elsa will leave and we'll be stuck with Emma/Regina. Imagine that.

[Minneapple]

Yeah, but Emma's not good enough to be Regina's friend, remember?

[FurryFury]

I'm sure she'll thaw out eventually, and will be naturally treated like a hero for deigning to forgive Emma.

[Shanna Marie]

But then, instead of keeping the normal pace, we have the stupid hand plot and the blackmail and now the stolen heart. And this is not an organic evolution. It's angst for the sake of angst. It's putting contrived obstacles in their way instead of exploring the relationship in an adult way.

While the kiss curse was contrived relationship angst because it didn't really mean anything and was just there to slow things down for an episode or two, I don't really agree that there being obstacles is getting in the way of a "normal" pace or necessarily contrived angst. These are heroes in a fairy tale setting. "Normal" is going to involve stuff like monsters, villains and curses getting in the way of having time to work on a relationship, and the relationships are going to have to be explored in the context of magic and villains.

 

The current plot line with Rumple and Hook may affect the relationship between Hook and Emma, but it's not really about their relationship. It would have had to be set up a different way, but the basics of Rumple needing Hook's heart to do the spell to free himself and taking Hook's heart to use to control him before doing so could have happened regardless of Hook's relationship with Emma. If anything, it's working the other way around, where the relationship raises the stakes for this plot because it gives Hook more to potentially lose. Without Emma, he'd have been furious about the Crocodile controlling him. With Emma, he's terrified that he may be forced to hurt her and he might be willing to make sacrifices to avoid doing so. While this may test their relationship, it could also strengthen it because of what they go through together.

 

The hand stuff was rather silly, but I don't even classify that as relationship angst because it didn't actually affect their relationship. They were developing pretty normally, with him learning about her past and being supportive. The blackmail with the hand only came into play to set up the current plot and only intersects the relationship in that frantic voice message that Emma may or may not ever hear.

[Curio]

The blackmail with the hand only came into play to set up the current plot and only intersects the relationship in that frantic voice message that Emma may or may not ever hear.

 

Can I just say I will be furious if Emma doesn't eventually hear that message? I can just imagine Emma tearfully listening on her phone - we don't even need to hear the message again, just a close-up on Morrison's face. Not only would listening to that message be a huge clue for the good guys to realize Rumple is up to something, but the fact that Hook confesses everything and thinks Emma may never forgive him might be that big "moment" where Emma realizes she loves Hook instead of just like.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

Rumple has taken her cell phone though, jerk that he is.  Why was he even in her things?  I also hope she hears the message.  Talk about sacrificing your relationship because you love someone enough to do that (I'm side eyeing everything that's OQ and how shallow they looked compared to that).

[Rumsy4]

 

Can I just say I will be furious if Emma doesn't eventually hear that message? I can just imagine Emma tearfully listening on her phone - we don't even need to hear the message again, just a close-up on Morrison's face. Not only would listening to that message be a huge clue for the good guys to realize Rumple is up to something, but the fact that Hook confesses everything and thinks Emma may never forgive him might be that big "moment" where Emma realizes she loves Hook instead of just like.

 

I agree, and I too will be furious if Emma doesn't listen to the message. But then, Emma never knew of Hook's guilt and the broken-hearted confession he made to Zelena that he loves Emma. So, I am crossing my fingers that she will this time, but not 100% confident that she will. I hope Rumple is not techno savvy enough to know about the Cloud.

[Shanna Marie]

Can I just say I will be furious if Emma doesn't eventually hear that message? I can just imagine Emma tearfully listening on her phone - we don't even need to hear the message again, just a close-up on Morrison's face.

Her face would totally break your heart, wouldn't it? Bonus points if she hears the message while she believes him to be dead.

 

Really, what's the point of the message if she doesn't hear it? Other than, I suppose, making it clear he was willing to come clean, which changes the way things look to the audience.

[Souris]

I kind of hope that Rumple just took her phone and tossed it somewhere at the shop ... where Belle will find it and return it to her.

[HoodlumSheep]

I can live with the hand stuff as well. It was sort of foreshadowing of what was to come, and it never really got int he way of their relationship.

Hopefully Emma or someone here's Killy's message!

Also, #GoldenHook brotp is officially canon! Yay! Okay, yeah, they'll never be friends. OTN. Yep, just made that abbreviation up. One True Nemesis/Nemeses? I don't know, ignore me.

Loving the Frozen Swan friendship. My heart's going to break in two when Elsa leaves.

[OnceUponAJen]

I hope Rumple is not techno savvy enough to know about the Cloud.

It looks like Rumple keeps his inventory on index cards (a la Anna's necklace), so maybe not?

[Curio]

But then, Emma never knew of Hook's guilt and the broken-hearted confession he made to Zelena that he loves Emma.

 

True, but the difference there is that Emma was never meant to hear that. Hook purposely left Emma multiple voice mails with the intent that she listen to them. It's like the old trope where one lover writes the other a bunch of letters, but the angry parent or ex throws them all out before they can be read. Usually, those letters end up being read anyways by the other lover, but with Once, I have little faith Emma will listen to the phone call.

 

Does anyone remember if Belle ever listened to Rumple's phone call to her in Season 2?

Edited November 18, 2014 by Curio