S05.E09: What Happened, And What's Going On

[Dodginblue]

While it may be true that the show hasn't kept more than one African-American male character around for very long, it's also true that several African-American male actors are getting work because of it.   And maybe that's helping their careers move forward, a stint on this show even if it's just for a few episodes it seems like it would be good career opportunity to be seen and hopefully opens more doors for more work elsewhere.  

 

The ethnic group that seems most under-represented would be Hispanics, which is something like 18% of the total population.  

 

Not that I mind particularly one way or the other, I just like to see good performances whoever it is.  

 

I wondered in this episode, as I have in other situations, what happened to all the cats and dogs in the world?  Maybe that's been answered somewhere.  And I don't think I ever see or hear birds.   Anyway, I agree with Rick that staying at the subdivision would not have been a good idea.   Not only hard to defend but also not clear how they would have kept themselves supplied.  He had the right idea at the prison I think, that eventually they're going to need to be able to live off the land and not wait for a convenient food bank to appear.  Even though he's been ridiculed as "Farmer Rick".  

 

I also think they are all still spatially disoriented, they keep fixing on locations that meant something before the ZA.  I think sometimes how hard it must be to go from an Internet world to one where there's no way to know what's around the next corner.  I'm old enough to remember the world before the Internet and even in the olden times we had phones and tvs and radios and mailmen to deliver a letter.   You could plan a trip and know what kind of clothes to pack and what the conditions would be like at your destination.   

Edited February 12, 2015 by Dodginblue

[SometimesBites]

This. The issue is not the numerical representation in the cast, which is actually pretty good compared to its peers (well done show). The issue is that when the show chooses to kill off "good-guy" characters it almost always kills off a person of color or a woman. 

 

As a woman I got attached to Lori, Andrea and Beth. Whilst I knew Beth was always - unfortunately - destined to be zombie chow, the deaths of Lori and Andrea were a very big deal, they were major characters that had been part of the TWD from the very start and their deaths meant a reconfiguration of the show for me in terms of how I related to it. It was the equivalent of killing off Rick, Carl, Glenn or Daryl. 

 

Apart from Dale who died a long time back, and who was arguably not in the top tier of leading characters anyway, we've only really had the death of Shane, who was, in fact, a very ambiguous "good guy", killed in the end because he'd gone bad. Right now I fear very much for Maggie, when in fact it is surely the turn of someone like Glenn or Daryl to be on the chopping block. 

 

I think it's a similar story for black people, except that they are rarely afforded leading character status. Only Michonne has bucked this trend. 

 

At a guess I would say this show's demo skews heavily white and male and that goes some way to explain the privileged position of those sorts of characters, and the disposability of women and POC. 

Misty, I think the way you've chosen to break out which characters "count" and which ones don't is indicative of how subjective this whole idea is. I know Dale wasn't a big favorite with a lot of viewers, but count me in the camp that loved his character (I'm a big Jeff Demunn fan...) and was really shocked and saddened at his brutal death. By contrast, I found Beth to be an unrelentingly boring and useless character--but I still keep her in my count. The more conditions one puts on the "count-worthiness" of a character, the more subjective the numbers become.

[kikismom]

While it may be true that the show hasn't kept more than one African-American male character around for very long, it's also true that several African-American male actors are getting work because of it.   And maybe that's helping their careers move forward, a stint on this show even if it's just for a few episodes it seems like it would be good career opportunity to be seen and hopefully opens more doors for more work elsewhere.  

 

The ethnic group that seems most under-represented would be Hispanics, which is something like 18% of the total population.  

 

Not that I mind particularly one way or the other, I just like to see good performances whoever it is.  

 

 

I also think they are all still spatially disoriented, they keep fixing on locations that meant something before the ZA. 

Lots of people have been happy to get a job on TWD because of the profile it gets you; so many previous actors getting series, movies, and you can certainly keep being visible at conventions. Andrew J. West had no idea he was going to play the role he got; everyone auditioning gets a fake side to read so they can't leave and go tell spoilers. It was only after he was hired that he found out he would play Gareth, and what Gareth would be doing. Surprise!

 

 

The last place I would scavenge would be these damn subdivisions with clean washed SUVs in the driveways. I've mentioned before to look for "55 and over" communities because they have lots of canned soup and drugs.

 

Then I would go to areas where every home has a washer on the back porch, a rusty old pickup in the dirt driveway, and a weedy garden in an old painted tractor-tire in the front yard. Bonus points for old oil drum full of beercans and sprung sofa up on cinderblocks under a tree.

Those people have canned food, and guns, and ammo, and liquor f(or medicinal purposes), and tree stands and more drugs and crossbows and knives and more canned food and drugs and the kind of dry packaged processed food that never expires. Velveeta and pork rind jackpot.!

Did I mentions guns and ammo?

[kikismom]

ugh what is wrong with this show and black men? there isn't room for 2 black men in the show?  maybe noah better take a cue from glen and hook up with a white girl if he wants to be around longer than a season or 2.  gah.  this just bothers me so much.

Don't forget Father Gabriel---although I wish he'd been killed instead of Tyreese. Morgan will return, but Abraham, Eugene, Rosita, and Tara can go anytime, all together.

[AndySmith]

I'd keep Rosita and Tara. Abraham don't care for either way. But Eugene can go, and take Gabriel with him as well. And I still don't see what the big deal about Morgan is, if we never see him again I wouldn't be sad about it at all.

Edited February 12, 2015 by AndySmith

[ghoulina]

In Z Nation, the main crew regularly intones "I give you mercy" as they stab/smash/shoot through the zombie skulls.  That show's sort of a lightweight goof compared to TWD, but the concept of helping the afflicted rest in peace is a nice touch that I find missing in TWD.

 

Aw, I really like that. Maybe I'll have to give that show a try one of these days. 

[kikismom]

In Z Nation, the main crew regularly intones "I give you mercy" as they stab/smash/shoot through the zombie skulls. 

That would be hilarious in scenes like Rick and Carl shooting rapid-fire bullets at night when the herd breaks the fence down, or when Daryl, Michonne, Bob and Tyreese are being surrounded in the car by about 700 walkers.

Edited February 12, 2015 by kikismom

[lulee]

Those big "head aquariums" each weighed about the same as a baby elephant.  No way The Govnah arranged that setup all by himself.

True, but I doubt it was Shumpert among those who helped him. He probably BS'ed something about science while some stooges helped him and then had them go on a walk or drive with him, where they succumbed to "biters" shaped like Philip's bullets.

[Timetoread]

True, but I doubt it was Shumpert among those who helped him. He probably BS'ed something about science while some stooges helped him and then had them go on a walk or drive with him, where they succumbed to "biters" shaped like Philip's bullets.

 

I have to watch again but I am pretty sure that Martinez and TBG were front and present for ALL of the Governor's dirty dealings.  They weren't a crazy as he was but they were not innocents.  Their presence at the shooting of the marines alone shows them to be complicit.

[Raven1707]

 

P.S.  I scrutinize TWD opening credits every week because Grace Walker is some kind of production person and it makes me smile.

 

Graham "Grace" Walker did the art direction/set design on "The Road Warrior" (1981), the best of the Mad Max series. 

[AngelaHunter]

They weren't a crazy as he was but they were not innocents.

 

No, they weren't. They were enforcers and guerilla "soldiers".  But they didn't torture anyone for kicks and never would have gunned down their own people. We saw the horror and shock on their faces when the Gov did that.

[ghoulina]

Maybe just me, but I thought the shock and horror was more out of concern as to whether he'd turn around and gun them down too. I think that's why they left him - not out of any, "This dude has crossed a moral line we just don't agree with", but more of, "He's now become unstable and we just don't know what to expect from him". 

[TigerLynx]

I understand that not just anywhere will work as a place for them to settle down, but staying on the road all the time is problematic to.

 

Also, I'm not surprised that with the breakdown of civilization there are a lot of dangerous groups running around, however, there should be lots of people who liked the creature comforts they got used to pre-ZA who want to rebuild.

[GreyBunny]

In Z Nation, the main crew regularly intones "I give you mercy" as they stab/smash/shoot through the zombie skulls.  That show's sort of a lightweight goof compared to TWD, but the concept of helping the afflicted rest in peace is a nice touch that I find missing in TWD.

 

They tried in the first season.  They took that one guy's driver's license and had a memorial for him before they used his guts as walker camouflage.  With the sheer number of walkers and the ferocity of their attacks, not to mention the ongoing emotional toll, CDB can't do that anymore.  They have just barely enough to mourn for those lost in their own group.

[Jordan27]

I really liked the episode and thought Chad was great.  The only nitpick is kind of a big one.  How many times are our friends going to walk into homes without clearing it before covering bodies, mourning, looking through albums or anything else.  You would think they would have learned by now, clear the home and then do other things.  It's kind of sloppy writing.  They need to get Jesse Eisenberg.

(Zombieland rules for those that don't get it.)

[Nashville]

Hole up in a Walmart or shopping mall or Costco.

 

You ever see what's wandering around in Walmart after 2am? 

Do you honestly want a crowd of THOSE coming at you in zombie form?

On the plus side, though, bites wouldn't be near an issue. 

That requires a full - or at least near-full - set of teeth. 

Most late-night WalMarters couldn't load a musket.

[Nonlinear]

I really disliked this episode. I don't like it when one entire episode is devoted to just one character without much happening.

[JasonCC]

Jordan27: I read the entire thread and you're the only one who brought up the word racist. Intelligently talking about casting patterns and race isn't fundamentally calling any individual producer or casting director racist or "leftwing nonsense". One can talk about casting decisions we find problematic (or in my case not problematic, I think TWD is one of the most diverse shows on television) or even snark humorously about "one black at a time" tropes. We're all big kids here.

Edited February 13, 2015 by JasonCC

[HalcyonDays]

Aw guys....you made it five days before someone reported a post..FIVE DAYS! I was so proud of you, so proud of my fellow zombie lovers for giving me less work.... *sigh* /*soclose*/

......................

 

On a serious note, yes, let's not start flinging the word racist or any other insults around. There is a long-standing joke about TWD that when a POC shows up, another POC dies. But it is not a deliberate "let's get rid of all POC" going on here. It's based on character storyline (and sometimes reflect comic events), actor availability, budget even. There are factors that we just don't know about. TWD is a very diverse and well-cast show, so let's not simply dismiss character deaths or events as pure racism or whatever.

 

I will say that overall, this week everyone has been excellent with your posts, respectful, intelligent and funny! Let's continue that trend!! Thanks!

[NoWillToResist]

You ever see what's wandering around in Walmart after 2am? 

Do you honestly want a crowd of THOSE coming at you in zombie form?

On the plus side, though, bites wouldn't be near an issue. 

That requires a full - or at least near-full - set of teeth. 

Most late-night WalMarters couldn't load a musket.

 

Plus, you might be able to salvage their scooters! ;)

[Nashville]

Plus, you might be able to salvage their scooters! ;)

Hey - they have rechargeable batteries.

[lulee]

Hey - they have rechargeable batteries.

Solar?

 

The taking-stuff in trash bags bothered me (as did Michonne shattering glass over a shirt she wanted, making it covered in glass dust). They should have taken clean trash bags to keep things dry but duffel bags and backpacks to put their supplies in.

[Bongo Fury]

I will say that overall, this week everyone has been excellent with your posts, respectful, intelligent and funny!

 

Oh bite me!

 

;-)

[bosawks]

Oh bite me!

;-)

But then we'll just have to put you down....

[Iguessnot]

 

Back on topic, can anybody make something out of the Glenn-breaks-a-CD! moment? .I don't want to find out it's just another Bob looks at his secret box bit where we get led down another blind alley just because.

I'm thinking something is broken with his relationship with Maggie.

[editorgrrl]

On Talking Dead, Greg Nicotero said Glenn didn't like his reflection in the CD, so he broke it. (I, for one, hated his patchy facial hair.)

[GreyBunny]

Maggie burns a photo of herself, Glenn doesn't like his reflection in a CD...what is their aversion to their own images?  

[Too Late Kev]

They need to take a page from Stuart Smalley: "I'm good enough. I'm smart enough. And doggone it, people like me." Just as long as they don't go overboard, a la Sally Field -- they'd get shit for that forever.

[TigerLynx]

Maggie burns a photo of herself, Glenn doesn't like his reflection in a CD...what is their aversion to their own images?

 

 

Interesting question.  I've been wondering what Maggie was feeling for a long time now.  There is no guarantee that Herschel's farm wouldn't have been overrun by walkers at some point, but once Rick and Company showed up, one by one everyone Maggie had left started getting killed.  Unfortunately, if this show stays true to how its been writing things, what Maggie is thinking will only be shown in her character episode where she dies.  {face palm}

 

I've said before I understand killing characters off in a ZA, but what I dislike is the writers having characters be complete idiots so they get bit, several of the characters only got development just before they died, and they get replaced by lesser characters we know nothing about, and therefore, have less interest in.

 

They could have the characters settle in some place, and start to rebuild like they did at the prison while still having characters go on runs to get what they will initially need to survive.  Action and character development in the same episode is possible.

[NurseGiGi]

Okay, I'm just beginning to get caught up on all these posts and somebody has probably already made a comment but right now I don't have time to go back to the beginning of the thread.  I do want to comment on how the hell this group managed to make it 500 miles in 17 days when they couldn't make their way out of the Atlanta region in 2 years.

 

Boggles the mind.

[editorgrrl]

Maggie burns a photo of herself, Glenn doesn't like his reflection in a CD...what is their aversion to their own images?

When Maggie told Glenn something like, "You don't need a picture of me any more. You never will again," I thought they were foreshadowing her death. But she's still here.

[Raven1707]

I do want to comment on how the hell this group managed to make it 500 miles in 17 days when they couldn't make their way out of the Atlanta region in 2 years.

 

I'm thinking they found an AAA office somewhere along the line and one of them put together a TripTik.

[Nashville]

I'm thinking they found an AAA office somewhere along the line and one of them put together a TripTik.

And I'm thinking someone got their compass backwards - they thought they were headed back to Atlanta....

[GreyBunny]

I do want to comment on how the hell this group managed to make it 500 miles in 17 days when they couldn't make their way out of the Atlanta region in 2 years.

 

Boggles the mind.

 

There's a Nascar joke in there somewhere...

[kikismom]

They did most of the trip in a car they found crashed in a ditch and covered with brush.

It must have belonged to a family; they found a snapshot on the dashboard, faded strangely.

Daryl looked under the hood to check the battery and all he found was some coffeemaker-looking think that said Mr.Nuclear Reactor.

An ideal vehicle to steal for a long trip since it didn't need gas, but a bit crowded for 14 people.

Of course they tried to punch some sort of buttons to find a radio station, and 17 days and 500 miles just flew by.

 

Hunger can make you disoriented though.

[SevenStars]

Maggie burns a photo of herself, Glenn doesn't like his reflection in a CD...what is their aversion to their own images?  

 

I think for Maggie, her picture reminded her of who she was before and she didn't want that reminder. For Glenn, it's almost the same thing ,except his reflection reminded him of who is now, and he is not sure that he like this person because it is far from who he was before. 

Edited February 15, 2015 by SevenStars

[paramitch]

I'm shocked at the level of positive feedback this got -- I'm with those who thought it was just awful, a new low for the show.

 

For me, this was the single worst, most hackneyed, badly written episode of this show to date. I don't mind losing regular cast members, I just hate it when they die of literal stupidity, as poor Tyrese did here. Almost every single major action once they arrived at the subdivision was campy and even unintentionally funny to me. When Noah took off running, I was yelling at Tyrese to just let him go. (And honestly, I just didn't buy that suddenly we learn that Noah is chipper and well-adjusted because his whole family is evidently safe in another state.) Then all  of them dividing up in classic horror movie style -- without adequate protection or a base to return to -- again, just lazy writing.

 

Coleman was great as always, but the visions I thought were laughable and the worst-written parts of the episode, as was the silly, pretentious running faux radio 'report' radio commentary. It just felt like bad fan-fiction to me. And I agree with those who find the show's continued "whack-a-mole" approach to casting (and then systematically killing off) black male characters to be really gross.

 

Last but not least, maybe poor Tyrese's fate will finally convince these idiots to cover up, at least when preparing for potential encounters with walkers?

 

I guess we've just gone too many seasons with no change for my patience. I wish the show actually addressed the fallacy of the status quo at some point -- that they are facing rotting, weakening mindless creatures and it is wholly possible for them to find and fortify an area in which to live and defend themselves. At some point, I just don't think I can keep watching them stumble through what looks like the same endless woods making the same endless and asinine mistakes.

 

I'm sorry, this episode just made me really angry.

 

PS -- I also meant to include a quoted post here that disappeared, but I'd like to request that certain spoiler-friendly folks avoid using certain very predictable approaches that basically give us the gist of your spoilers from how you position them. (Mods, I hope this is an okay request -- please edit this post if not, with my apologies.)

 

For instance, when you argue against a specific romantic pairing on the show, then type, "Besides, the producers have said <SPOILER>..." and continue to argue why that pairing won't happen in pages of posts (or quote that post) -- or in a different example, that "People love <character> but the producers have already said <SPOILER>," it's fairly obvious that you are in fact backed up by the spoilers you just hid. I'd really like to avoid being more inadvertently spoiled than I already am just by reading the current forum posts. Many many thanks!

Edited February 18, 2015 by paramitch

[NoWillToResist]

they are facing rotting, weakening mindless creatures

 

This actually brings up a bone of contention that I have. I mean, sure, one must stretch credulity that walkers can actually move around at all, but I really have trouble when you see a grown, healthy adult struggle against a shuffling, rotted corpse that's been that way for a good chunk of time. Fresh walker? Maybe. But some of those things are half falling apart (or should be), and I find myself scoffing at how hard the one-on-one struggles sometimes appear to be for our crew.

[Iguessnot]

 

PS -- I also meant to include a quoted post here that disappeared, but I'd like to request that certain spoiler-friendly folks avoid using certain very predictable approaches that basically give us the gist of your spoilers from how you position them. (Mods, I hope this is an okay request -- please edit this post if not, with my apologies.)

 

For instance, when you argue against a specific romantic pairing on the show, then type, "Besides, the producers have said <SPOILER>..." and continue to argue why that pairing won't happen in pages of posts (or quote that post) -- or in a different example, that "People love <character> but the producers have already said <SPOILER>," it's fairly obvious that you are in fact backed up by the spoilers you just hid. I'd really like to avoid being more inadvertently spoiled than I already am just by reading the current forum posts. Many many thanks!

 

Totally agree.

[Watcher0363]

Pop Culture: 201. Early 21st century Supernatural fiction.

Is Beth Greene the ZA's version of a MPDG? With her living persona capable of restoring faith to the broken male through blondness and song. And her death persona having the characteristics of the Pied Pipper and the ferry man for the river Styx's.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Watcher0363

[BrokenRemote]

Where the final G switches from "Girl" to "Ghost".

[Watcher0363]

Where the final G switches from "Girl" to "Ghost".

Damn that was good! LOL

[Too Late Kev]

I wish the show actually addressed the fallacy of the status quo at some point -- that they are facing rotting, weakening mindless creatures and it is wholly possible for them to find and fortify an area in which to live and defend themselves.

 

If they were only facing rotting, weakening mindless creatures, it would be easy enough to do that. I would hope, for example, that if they hadn't been attacked by humans at the prison, that they would have figured out ways to keep the walkers from piling up at the fence and putting pressure on it, like set up fences to herd them around the prison. And Noah's gated community would be simple to fortify, if they were only facing the walkers. But walkers didn't cut people in half or mark up their heads with x's or w's or whatever. There are some rotten, preying-on-the-weak, bad-minded humans out there, and they're potentially very difficult to defend against. I'd still be trying, of course, but there's no reason to think it would be easy or last that long.

 

MPDG = "The Manic Pixie Dream Girl exists solely in the fevered imaginations of sensitive writer-directors to teach broodingly soulful young men to embrace life and its infinite mysteries and adventures." (To save other uninformed people from having to google.)

[editorgrrl]

I'm shocked at the level of positive feedback this got -- I'm with those who thought it was just awful, a new low for the show.

 

For me, this was the single worst, most hackneyed, badly written episode of this show to date. I don't mind losing regular cast members, I just hate it when they die of literal stupidity, as poor Tyrese did here.

 

Beth died of literal stupidity. So did Andrea. (I kept yelling at the screen for her to shut the hell up.) I didn't love this episode, but I really appreciated that it was defying my expectations. (TPTB had said this would be a "love it or hate it episode," and I was kind of in awe of them for taking risks.)

 

I'd been ready for Tyreese to die ever since he stopped Carole from killing Martin. The moral compass of this show always dies, so I'm hoping Father Gabriel assumes that role rather than Glenn.

[AngelaHunter]

but the visions I thought were laughable

 

It was laughable, or rather, it would have been if it weren't so damned annoying and boring. The visions were getting so numerous I was expecting to see some of them lined up in the hall, waiting for their chance to say poetic and/or demeaning things to Tyrese, while he took 10 hours to die. Seemed like 10 hours to me anyway.

 

 

[kikismom]

. The visions were getting so numerous I was expecting to see some of them lined up in the hall, waiting for their chance to say poetic and/or demeaning things to Tyrese,

They could have had Allen and Ben peeking in the doorway: "Is this meeting open to everybody?"

[allthatglitters]

They did most of the trip in a car they found crashed in a ditch and covered with brush.

It must have belonged to a family; they found a snapshot on the dashboard, faded strangely.

Daryl looked under the hood to check the battery and all he found was some coffeemaker-looking think that said Mr.Nuclear Reactor.

An ideal vehicle to steal for a long trip since it didn't need gas, but a bit crowded for 14 people.

Of course they tried to punch some sort of buttons to find a radio station, and 17 days and 500 miles just flew by.

 

Hunger can make you disoriented though.

 

The suspending of disbelief has a lot of rope for me just because I enjoy the show so much. But so many scenes are wearing down that rope. The biggest pet peeve on this episode was that road trip...or rather why that road trip ever stalled.

 

It was only 100 miles to Washington city.  And so in their wisdom they took only one van, and like circus clowns stuffed everyone in.  What I could see at that residence was a number of vehicles. It would make way more sense to take at least two vehicles in case you had car trouble on the way wouldn't it? 

 

This leads me to my biggest whaaaaaaa? of all. One full tank of gas should get you 100 miles no problem. Why, with many other vehicles around to siphon gas from, would the brilliant Rick, or any of that motley crew, not think that everyone jumping into a van and heading on the zombie infested road with only 40 miles worth of gas in the tank, which should have been evident looking at the gas gauge, would be a good idea?

 

Also, I am unfamiliar with the Washington city area, but as with most every large metropolis, in that last 100 miles on the road in, it would not be a wilderness. There would be small communities, stores, gas stations at least every 30 miles or so. I mean the zombies that were chasing them must have come from somewhere. Again, even if they were so bone-headed not to fill up the tank, or even fill a few containers, from other cars, and take those, they surely could have noticed the tank was low and stopped by an abandoned vehicle on the way before they ran out.  Even a remote property would have a house and maybe a couple of cars. Daryl found a barn that may even have had a can of gas in it. There must have been a house close too to look for water, food.

 

I could add the ineptitude of not initially scouring that camp for water and food to last a mere 100 mile trip as well, but my head hurts too much.

[Raven1707]

Watched this episode again today, and enjoyed it thoroughly...but then I was a film major.

[kikismom]

The suspending of disbelief has a lot of rope for me just because I enjoy the show so much. But so many scenes are wearing down that rope. The biggest pet peeve on this episode was that road trip...or rather why that road trip ever stalled.

 

It was only 100 miles to Washington city.  And so in their wisdom they took only one van, and like circus clowns stuffed everyone in.  What I could see at that residence was a number of vehicles. It would make way more sense to take at least two vehicles in case you had car trouble on the way wouldn't it? 

 

This leads me to my biggest whaaaaaaa? of all. One full tank of gas should get you 100 miles no problem. Why, with many other vehicles around to siphon gas from, would the brilliant Rick, or any of that motley crew, not think that everyone jumping into a van and heading on the zombie infested road with only 40 miles worth of gas in the tank, which should have been evident looking at the gas gauge, would be a good idea?

 

Also, I am unfamiliar with the Washington city area, but as with most every large metropolis, in that last 100 miles on the road in, it would not be a wilderness. There would be small communities, stores, gas stations at least every 30 miles or so. I mean the zombies that were chasing them must have come from somewhere. Again, even if they were so bone-headed not to fill up the tank, or even fill a few containers, from other cars, and take those, they surely could have noticed the tank was low and stopped by an abandoned vehicle on the way before they ran out.  Even a remote property would have a house and maybe a couple of cars. Daryl found a barn that may even have had a can of gas in it. There must have been a house close too to look for water, food.

 

I could add the ineptitude of not initially scouring that camp for water and food to last a mere 100 mile trip as well, but my head hurts too much.

My post had been a weak "Back To The Future" joke. I whiffed on that I guess.