Rory Gilmore: Poor little rich girl?

[elang4]

5 minutes ago, deaja said:

Dean’s Mom had a job. I don’t think Lindsay was selfish for wanting a town house unless we know that Dean wanted her working and she was refusing. The bigger issue with that was Rory thought she had a right to an opinion on Lindsey and Dean’s decisions made as a couple.

That really annoyed me as well! It was Dean’s life and she thought she still had a say in it even though she chose Jess over him. I didn’t particularly like Dean but I was with him when he told her off after she got angry at him for wanting to get married and then later going part time at college.

[Anela]

On February 26, 2018 at 5:55 PM, steff13 said:

Yeah, no, I can't sign on to that.  It's none of her business, and it shouldn't have had any affect on Rory's relationship with Christopher.  It really bugs me.

It doesn't bug me. The only thing that does, is that she didn't get angry with her dad for taking advantage of the situation. He was happy to "comfort" Lorelei, and sleep with her. Expecting more afterwards, when she'd just left a very serious relationship. 

Also: what did Rory do when she was mad at Logan? She went to see Jess, and kissed him. She had gone with the idea of sleeping with him, right? Cheating on Logan, to get back at him. Her mother was engaged to his former guardian, and she knew that Jess still liked her/was in love with her. She was looking to take advantage of that, not to be with him instead of Logan. At least she cut her mother a break, at the end of the episode, after giving Lane a pep-talk. The same thing annoys me when they get married, though: she blames her mother for their getting married without her there, when it's her dad that's pushing for everything. He was totally inconsiderate. He didn't say, "we should have Rory here." So why does he get a pass? 

[slf]

6 hours ago, deaja said:

Dean’s Mom had a job. I don’t think Lindsay was selfish for wanting a town house unless we know that Dean wanted her working and she was refusing. The bigger issue with that was Rory thought she had a right to an opinion on Lindsey and Dean’s decisions made as a couple.

I think it's selfish to insist on a townhome if you aren't going to contribute to the finances. One paycheck only goes so far when you're nineteen and don't have a degree, special skills, or much experience. Dean's longest job prior to getting married was bag boy at a small grocery store. Lindsay had unrealistic expectations. She needed to get a job and help pay the bills, not stay at home all day when there were no kids to take care of.

6 hours ago, deaja said:

The bigger issue with that was Rory thought she had a right to an opinion on Lindsey and Dean’s decisions made as a couple.

And didn't mind expressing those opinions loudly in the small grocery store everyone in town shops at. 

I forget: did they ever have Lindsay confront Rory over the affair? Rory really deserved to have a strip taken off for that.

Edited March 25, 2018 by slf

[andromeda331]

6 hours ago, slf said:

I think it's selfish to insist on a townhome if you aren't going to contribute to the finances. One paycheck only goes so far when you're nineteen and don't have a degree, special skills, or much experience. Dean's longest job prior to getting married was bag boy at a small grocery store. Lindsay had unrealistic expectations. She needed to get a job and help pay the bills, not stay at home all day when there were no kids to take care of.

And didn't mind expressing those opinions loudly in the small grocery store everyone in town shops at. 

I forget: did they ever have Lindsay confront Rory over the affair? Rory really deserved to have a strip taken off for that.

No. Lindsay's mother did when she and Lindsay ran into Rory and Lorelai. Lindsay didn't say anything.  

[Frelling Tralk]

15 hours ago, chessiegal said:

I never understood Lindsay not having a job. My Mom got married in 1946, and worked full time until she had me in 1950. My 2 step-daughters worked full time after getting married until they had babies. I thought Dean's Mom had a job? Stupid storyline.

I didn’t understand that either, women that stay at home usually only do so when there are kids to raise. At 18/19 it was *very* odd for Lindsay to not be working or in college, and it’s not like she came from money, so that she would have the expectation that it was acceptable to be sat at home doing nothing all day. (Heck even Emily Gilmore went to college as a young woman before marrying Richard and establishing herself as a society wife). And Lindsay clearly hadn’t married rich when her husband was struggling and working in construction, yet her only ambition seeming to be to master how to cook food for Dean? The show does acknowledge that with Rory bitching about how Lindsay should get a job, so I suppose that we were meant to be view Lindsay as being lazy and out of touch to not be contributing to the finances, while wanting a fancy house that Dean had to drop out of college to pay for.

It would have made a lot more sense if Lindsay was staying home to raise a baby, and the only reason they got married so young was because of an unexpected pregnancy, but then of course that would have made Dean and Rory’s cheating even more unforgivable in most viewers eyes 

Edited March 25, 2018 by Frelling Tralk

[Anela]

2 hours ago, Frelling Tralk said:

I didn’t understand that either, women that stay at home usually only do so when there are kids to raise. At 18/19 it was *very* odd for Lindsay to not be working or in college, and it’s not like she came from money, so that she would have the expectation that it was acceptable to be sat at home doing nothing all day. (Heck even Emily Gilmore went to college as a young woman before marrying Richard and establishing herself as a society wife). And Lindsay clearly hadn’t married rich when her husband was struggling and working in construction, yet her only ambition seeming to be to master how to cook food for Dean? The show does acknowledge that with Rory bitching about how Lindsay should get a job, so I suppose that we were meant to be view Lindsay as being lazy and out of touch to not be contributing to the finances, while wanting a fancy house that Dean had to drop out of college to pay for.

It would have made a lot more sense if Lindsay was staying home to raise a baby, and the only reason they got married so young was because of an unexpected pregnancy, but then of course that would have made Dean and Rory’s cheating even more unforgivable in most viewers eyes 

Dean was the one who liked the idea of the wife being at home, cooking for her husband (and family, when they had one). If he had a problem with their marriage, it was up to him to talk to his wife, not the woman he really wanted to be with. 

[Kohola3]

2 hours ago, Frelling Tralk said:

...so I suppose that we were meant to be view Lindsay as being lazy and out of touch to not be contributing to the finances, while wanting a fancy house that Dean had to drop out of college to pay for.

Rory = ambitious, smart, driven, good.  Deserves Dean.

Lindsay = lazy, entitled, greedy, bad.  Doesn't deserve Dean.

Why not just hit us over the head with a stick to drive home the difference and make Rory's actions forgivable.  Crappy writing again.  (And apparently the formula currently used by all of the the syrupy Hallmark movies where there are two boyfriends, the current being unbelievably bad and the "accidental" one being just this side of heavenly. Ugh.)

[Guest]

I don’t think we can assume Lindsay was refusing to work or demanding a townhouse. We only saw Dean’s few offhand comments and Rory’s POV. If Dean and Lindsey decided together that they wanted her to stay home, that’s really none of Rory’s business. Also, “Lindsey wants a townhouse” doesn’t mean she demanded one. It could be she mentioned in passing or they were talking about starting a family and she said she would want to be in a townhouse or something bigger before that.

I think Lindsey and Dean were young, naive, and foolish, but from what we saw I don’t have a negative view of Lindsey.

[Kohola3]

14 minutes ago, deaja said:

Also, “Lindsey wants a townhouse” doesn’t mean she demanded one.

Well, she may not have demanded it but she didn't push back during this exchange.

DEAN: You want a town house? You want a new car? We need money to pay for these things.
LINDSAY: I sit at home all day waiting for you. You never call during the day, like you always promise you will.
DEAN: God, Lindsay!
LINDSAY: I'm bored, Dean. Don't you care about that? I want to go out with my husband. Hello! We're married here!

Complaining about being bored didn't garner any supportive feelings from the viewers, either.  But I imagine that was ASP's plan.

[Anela]

31 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

Well, she may not have demanded it but she didn't push back during this exchange.

DEAN: You want a town house? You want a new car? We need money to pay for these things.
LINDSAY: I sit at home all day waiting for you. You never call during the day, like you always promise you will.
DEAN: God, Lindsay!
LINDSAY: I'm bored, Dean. Don't you care about that? I want to go out with my husband. Hello! We're married here!

Complaining about being bored didn't garner any supportive feelings from the viewers, either.  But I imagine that was ASP's plan.

That's another thing that bugs me about Dean: he was *always* calling Rory, to the point that Lorelai had to suggest that he back off. he was also calling her on his cell phone, after he was married, delivering furniture during the day. He could have refused to make the delivery, or called his wife on the way. He may have been a (mostly) good first boyfriend, and ended up happily married, but with his behaviour when he was first married, he was no prize. 

[stan4]

On 3/25/2018 at 7:37 AM, Kohola3 said:

Rory = ambitious, smart, driven, good.  Deserves Dean.

Lindsay = lazy, entitled, greedy, bad.  Doesn't deserve Dean.

Why not just hit us over the head with a stick to drive home the difference and make Rory's actions forgivable.  Crappy writing again.  (And apparently the formula currently used by all of the the syrupy Hallmark movies where there are two boyfriends, the current being unbelievably bad and the "accidental" one being just this side of heavenly. Ugh.)

I totally get what you're saying.  I actually  never thought of that way.  I'm not the kind of person who finds cheating excusable, even if people are married to ogres, and besides being lazy and  having RBF, Lindsey wasn't an ogre.  So I totally lost respect for both Dean and Rory in that fell swoop.

[andromeda331]

5 minutes ago, stan4 said:

I totally get what you're saying.  I actually  never thought of that way.  I'm not the kind of person who finds cheating excusable, even if people are married to ogres, and besides being lazy and  having RBF, Lindsey wasn't an ogre.  So I totally lost respect for both Dean and Rory in that fell swoop.

I'm not either. I don't know why TV shows do this with couples I don't find it at all romantic or star-crossed for having an affair with married man (or woman if the case maybe). It just makes them both look like jerks to me. I started to lose respect for Dean and Rory when Dean mentioned they Lindsay didn't want him to see Rory and he ignored it and when Rory asked where Lindsay thought Dean was when he came to pick her up at that bar. Them sleeping together just cemented it. I have never understood the appeal of a married man (or woman if the case maybe) it doesn't matter if he's the nicest guy in the world. Or a character I used to like on Gilmore Girls. There's no reason for it and its not romantic. If Dean is unhappy or if he realizes he is still in love with Rory or whatever get a divorce. If he had problems with his wife he should discuss them with her. If that doesn't work again divorce.  For Rory's part it never really ever seemed like she was longing for Dean. She had a lackluster freshmen year without any boys chasing after her to date.  She wanted to feel better about herself and Dean was around. Once Logan is on the scene she is no longer interested in Dean. I really didn't like that Rory didn't step back any time before sleeping with Dean like she should have. He was married. I also didn't like that Rory never seems sorry for it or sorry for Lindsay getting hurt. No, she didn't marry Lindsay. But she's suppose to be a good nice, and decent person so would think she would feel bad that Lindsay got hurt. You'd think she'd wonder how she got into a position that she became the other woman or realized she messed up. But she really never does. I really wish they hadn't gone there at all. I thought the scene with Rory and Dean at the end of season three was perfect when she gives him the catalog and pick something out with Lindsay as a wedding present. Rory's going of to college and Dean's getting married and going to college. I really hate that they undid that.          

[Taryn74]

5 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I thought the scene with Rory and Dean at the end of season three was perfect when she gives him the catalog and pick something out with Lindsay as a wedding present.

I did too.  THAT was the kind of relationship you need to have with an ex who has moved on.  Too bad it didn't last.

[Guest]

I even thought Chicken and Beef was fairly well done and realistic when she was looking in on the wedding and crying from a distance. I think that was a normal, natural reaction and it was understated enough that it wasn’t obnoxious.

Then less than a season later....

[steff13]

On ‎3‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 4:43 PM, deaja said:

Dean’s Mom had a job. I don’t think Lindsay was selfish for wanting a town house unless we know that Dean wanted her working and she was refusing. The bigger issue with that was Rory thought she had a right to an opinion on Lindsey and Dean’s decisions made as a couple.

I think it was a little selfish that he had to work three jobs in order to afford a townhouse, when she worked none.  And they did have the argument at the inn where she complained that she just sits around all day waiting for him to call and he never does.  I bet someone with three jobs would love to have the opportunity to sit around all day.

[junienmomo]

On 3/25/2018 at 2:37 PM, Kohola3 said:

Rory = ambitious, smart, driven, good.  Deserves Dean.

Lindsay = lazy, entitled, greedy, bad.  Doesn't deserve Dean.

Why not just hit us over the head with a stick to drive home the difference and make Rory's actions forgivable.  Crappy writing again.  (And apparently the formula currently used by all of the the syrupy Hallmark movies where there are two boyfriends, the current being unbelievably bad and the "accidental" one being just this side of heavenly. Ugh.)

This was heavy-handed. It supports the theory that ASP saw herself as Rory: blameless, always right, deserves to be everybody’s darling no matter how bad she behaves. See also my reply in the Jess Mariano thread - she’s more like him than Lorelai wants to admit.

[slf]

22 hours ago, steff13 said:

I think it was a little selfish that he had to work three jobs in order to afford a townhouse, when she worked none.  And they did have the argument at the inn where she complained that she just sits around all day waiting for him to call and he never does.  I bet someone with three jobs would love to have the opportunity to sit around all day.

Yeah, that scene at the inn was ASP working overtime to make us hate that girl:

LINDSAY: Dean, come on.
DEAN: Lindsay, I'm working.
LINDSAY: Are you? Well, how shocking.
DEAN: What do you want me to do?
LINDSAY: We're supposed to go out with Erika and David tonight.
DEAN: I can't!
LINDSAY: So why would you say you could?!
DEAN: Lindsay, I told you, if there was a chance for some extra hours --
LINDSAY: Oh, come on!
DEAN: -- that I was gonna take it.
LINDSAY: We never do anything, Dean.
DEAN: We need money! God! You know that, Lindsay!
LINDSAY: You are so incredibly selfish. You never think about me -- never.
DEAN: You want a town house? You want a new car? We need money to pay for these things.
LINDSAY: I sit at home all day waiting for you. You never call during the day, like you always promise you will.
DEAN: God, Lindsay!
LINDSAY: I'm bored, Dean. Don't you care about that? I want to go out with my husband. Hello! We're married here!
DEAN: Well, I'll be done in a couple of hours. If you want to--
LINDSAY: I'm going out with Erika and David.
DEAN: Fine. Go. When will you be home?
LINDSAY: When I get home.
DEAN: That's nice, Lindsay. That's real nice.
LINDSAY: Whatever, Dean.

Are there Lindsays out there? Sure are. But ASP only wrote Lindsay like that to make Dean and Rory's affair more palatable. It's also hard for me to really dislike Lindsay because a) she's a kid, too, b) she was probably raised that way, and c) this is exactly the kind of life Dean thought was great and he chose to marry Lindsay.

I do sometimes wish Rory had taken off like Jess had. Not run away, or anything, but went off to maybe NY or some place to work and turn her life around. Rory's the sort of person who if they're in certain environments they will always indulge the worst aspects of their personality. If Rory has even one foot in Emily's world she'll take the easy way out.

Edited March 30, 2018 by slf

[steff13]

I get it, and I don't hate Lindsay.  I was 18 when I got married, and I worked 40 hours a week and went to college FT.  So did my husband.  It's difficult to imagine being in a position where my husband dropped out of college and worked three jobs without jumping in to help.  Most people who stay at home work first.

I don't think anything justifies an affair though.  

[MatildaMoody]

On 2/26/2018 at 5:55 PM, steff13 said:

To be fair, I think she was more upset that she had sex with Chris immediately after everything happened with Luke. She liked Luke too. And also she finally had a good thing going with her dad. She was worried this would ruin it.

I think it was also the way that Lorelai presented her breakup with Luke. Lorelai made it seem like they simply didn't work out because Luke was too preoccupied with being a dad and just wasn't in it with her. So, she was all in on cheering up Lorelai. Then, finding out that Lorelai slept with Chris was the nightmare scenario that she originally imagined happening in earlier an earlier season when she told Chris to stay away from Lorelai after Sherri left. She knew her mother couldn't help herself, that somewhere in the back of her mind she was still holding a place for Chris and that he was never going to be able to fulfill that, and that Lorelai would throw away something good just to give Chris another chance and end up hurt. 

I also think she was mad because she felt blindsided. She knew that Lorelai was trying to deal with the April situation, and had encouraged Lorelai to talk with Luke about it (which Lorelai refused to do until she had a screaming breakdown and refused to hear anything he said unless it was "yes, let's elope right now), but didn't think the two were anywhere near breaking up. So she went from believing that Luke was completely at fault for the breakup, to learning that Lorelai backslid with Chris, and here she was doing goofy things to make her mom feel better. When in actuality, it was what she had feared happening a year or so before.

[greekmom]

On 3/25/2018 at 9:07 AM, deaja said:

I don’t think we can assume Lindsay was refusing to work or demanding a townhouse. We only saw Dean’s few offhand comments and Rory’s POV. If Dean and Lindsey decided together that they wanted her to stay home, that’s really none of Rory’s business. Also, “Lindsey wants a townhouse” doesn’t mean she demanded one. It could be she mentioned in passing or they were talking about starting a family and she said she would want to be in a townhouse or something bigger before that.

I think Lindsey and Dean were young, naive, and foolish, but from what we saw I don’t have a negative view of Lindsey.

I just never understood why a) Dean and Lindsay got married so young and b) why Lindsay wouldn't work and just be a stay at home wife but then complain to Dean that he has no time for her and that she is bored at home.  

Doesn't Stars Hallow have many job opportunities?  Or volunteer options?

[MatildaMoody]

6 hours ago, greekmom said:

I just never understood why a) Dean and Lindsay got married so young and b) why Lindsay wouldn't work and just be a stay at home wife but then complain to Dean that he has no time for her and that she is bored at home.  

Doesn't Stars Hallow have many job opportunities?  Or volunteer options?

I think this was just shoddy writing. Dean originally planned to go to community college, and said that Rory had inspired him to do that. So, in my mind, there was no reason for Dean to propose to Lindsay other than the writers trying to create tension for story purposes. I mean even in that time period, it is weird that the two of them would get married and both sets of their parents would be ok with it. I mean how could their parents be ok with that when they knew that Dean was working dead end jobs to get by? Even if Dean wanted that old fashioned sort of dynamic, both of his parents worked (wasn't his mother a nurse?). So, why change his college plans to get married when he could have continued dating her while he was in school? And why wouldn't his parents have an issue with it? Why would Lindsay's parents be ok with her marrying her high school boyfriend when he had no longterm life or career goals?

[chessiegal]

1 minute ago, MatildaMoody said:

I think this was just shoddy writing. Dean originally planned to go to community college, and said that Rory had inspired him to do that. So, in my mind, there was no reason for Dean to propose to Lindsay other than the writers trying to create tension for story purposes. I mean even in that time period, it is weird that the two of them would get married and both sets of their parents would be ok with it. I mean how could their parents be ok with that when they knew that Dean was working dead end jobs to get by? Even if Dean wanted that old fashioned sort of dynamic, both of his parents worked (wasn't his mother a nurse?). So, why change his college plans to get married when he could have continued dating her while he was in school? And why wouldn't his parents have an issue with it? Why would Lindsay's parents be ok with her marrying her high school boyfriend when he had no longterm life or career goals?

So agree with shoddy writing. In 1947, my mother married and worked until I was born. I graduated high school in 1968, and don't know of any women in my HS class who married soon thereafter who didn't work. Stupid storyline - they could have set up the same end result with Lindsay working.

[Bringonthedrama]

On 3/24/2018 at 10:53 PM, slf said:

And didn't mind expressing those opinions loudly in the small grocery store everyone in town shops at. 

But she wasn't expressing it loudly to Lindsay, expecting her to defend herself or step up and be a better wife to Dean. In that case, I would say Rory was out of line.

 She vented to her best friend Lane, after a conversation with Dean where he was telling her he had to work really hard to afford the town home Lindsey expected.  Dean was in the wrong; he  shouldn't be discussing the financial situation of his marriage, or Lindsey's desires, with his ex-girlfriend (and without Lindsey's permission/knowledge, no less).

Lindsey then asked Dean not to talk to Rory anymore, a request he blew off. The times that Rory brought up Lindsay, he said something vague because he wanted to focus on Rory and not think about his wife. Then he got close to Rory because he wanted to kiss her, was interrupted, and followed that up with going to her house to see her - knowing she was alone because Lorelai had told him.  He was telling Rory it was over with Lindsay, as he got closer to kiss her. 

It seemed to me that as Dean's marriage got into troubled waters, he totally lost interest in his wife, wanted Rory back, and made it happen.  I got that impression because as they were in bed together in her room, she said "I can't believe this happened" (or close to that anyway_ and he replied, "I can" - while looking totally happy and not the least bit guilty about cheating on his wife. Rory was struggling in several ways in her first year at Yale, and Stars Hollow and Dean represented her safe, comfortable  past, 

They were both totally wrong for having the affair, though. In time, it seemed like Rory felt remorse. I never got the impression that Dean felt guilt and shame for betraying his wife - just irritation that he got caught and had to move back in with his parents as a result of the fall out.

[slf]

2 hours ago, Bringonthedrama said:

But she wasn't expressing it loudly to Lindsay, expecting her to defend herself or step up and be a better wife to Dean. In that case, I would say Rory was out of line.

 She vented to her best friend Lane, after a conversation with Dean where he was telling her he had to work really hard to afford the town home Lindsey expected.  Dean was in the wrong; he  shouldn't be discussing the financial situation of his marriage, or Lindsey's desires, with his ex-girlfriend (and without Lindsey's permission/knowledge, no less).

I disagree. Rory wasn't venting, she was criticizing the actions of a woman she has no relationship with in part because she wanted that woman's husband. She did so loudly in a small store everyone in town shops at, a town that is known for gossiping, and the woman she was talking about was in that store (Stars Hollow wasn't Rory's home anymore, it was still Lindsay's). It was stupid and rude. We've all walked around gossiping about someone, I know I have, but if you get caught doing it then you are in the wrong. Rory could've vented to Lane somewhere more private or on the phone.

[Bringonthedrama]

34 minutes ago, slf said:

I disagree. Rory wasn't venting, she was criticizing the actions of a woman she has no relationship with in part because she wanted that woman's husband. She did so loudly in a small store everyone in town shops at, a town that is known for gossiping, and the woman she was talking about was in that store (Stars Hollow wasn't Rory's home anymore, it was still Lindsay's). It was stupid and rude. We've all walked around gossiping about someone, I know I have, but if you get caught doing it then you are in the wrong. Rory could've vented to Lane somewhere more private or on the phone.

Criticizing or venting - terminology isn't really the point to me. She wasn't telling Lindsay off or making demands of her. While I agree what she said was critical, I don't agree that the writing or AB's acting showed she wanted Dean. She was thinking of him as friend who, when he was her boyfriend, was smart and motivated to succeed in school and was backsliding in his potential because of his marriage. She was also critical of how her frenemy, Paris, was treating her boyfriend Jamie that year. Now if Rory had said to Lane what she said to Lorelai upon getting caught with Dean emerging from her bedroom (MY Dean, etc.) then yeah I would agree with you. What I thought was far worse was the moment in that same store that Dean (after cheating on his wife, but still living with her and not confessing to adultery) cornered Lorelai, anxious for information about Rory's whereabouts because he heard she was traveling with her grandmother. At that point, Rory was a college student, her mother Lorelai still had their permanent home there, and so Stars Hollow was absolutely still Rory's hometown.

[slf]

2 hours ago, Bringonthedrama said:

Criticizing or venting - terminology isn't really the point to me. She wasn't telling Lindsay off or making demands of her. While I agree what she said was critical, I don't agree that the writing or AB's acting showed she wanted Dean. 

There are more ways to be rude than telling someone off to their face; sniping about their marriage behind their back is most certainly one. Doing so in public where other people - people who interact with that person every day - can hear even more so. 

I connected her criticism of Lindsay to her own feelings for Dean because it was blatant that her feelings for him had already come back by that point. While Rory would likely still find the situation unfortunate even if she wasn't friends with Dean by that point I highly doubt she would've been as annoyed by it to the point she needed to "vent" about it. It reminded me of her being all "I hate the name Beth. Ugh, Beth" when Lane was telling her about Dean's ex-girlfriend in Chicago during season one.

Edited April 23, 2018 by slf

[andromeda331]

7 hours ago, slf said:

There are more ways to be rude than telling someone off to their face; sniping about their marriage behind their back is most certainly one. Doing so in public where other people - people who interact with that person every day - can hear even more so. 

I connected her criticism of Lindsay to her own feelings for Dean because it was blatant that her feelings for him had already come back by that point. While Rory would likely still find the situation unfortunate even if she wasn't friends with Dean by that point I highly doubt she would've been as annoyed by it to the point she needed to "vent" about it. It reminded me of her being all "I hate the name Beth. Ugh, Beth" when Lane was telling her about Dean's ex-girlfriend in Chicago during season one.

I agree. I don't think it would have mattered who Dean dated or married Rory would have been venting how she wasn't good enough for Dean. She wasn't thrilled to learn Dean was dating someone in season three. When Rory and Lorelai were kind of loudly and rudely talking at the Poe thing Rory remarked that Nicole had some of the "Lindsay attitude'.   She really wasn't that different from Lorelai, she didn't want Dean dating anyone else anymore the Lorelai wanted Luke dating Nicole (or you know anyone else). 

[Bringonthedrama]

14 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

 She wasn't thrilled to learn Dean was dating someone in season three. When Rory and Lorelai were kind of loudly and rudely talking at the Poe thing Rory remarked that Nicole had some of the "Lindsay attitude'.   She really wasn't that different from Lorelai, she didn't want Dean dating anyone else anymore the Lorelai wanted Luke dating Nicole (or you know anyone else). 

I remember what you're talking about, and in that case I understood why Rory said that. Rory ran into Lindsay, and she thought it was weird that Lindsay snubbed her. Then Dean told her he and Lindsay were dating. Rory recalled an anecdote when she was in school with Lindsay, indicating Dean was dating a nice girl. Then Lindsay came to join Dean and snubbed both Lorelai and Rory. When Rory looked in Dean and Lindsay's direction during a town meeting (not even speaking to them), Lindsay caught her eye and looked displeased, and then quickly looked away.  Lorelai smiled toward Luke and Nicole in the town meeting, Nicole saw her smile, looked displeased, and then quickly looked away.   That's what Rory meant by the "Lindsay attitude." I don't think they were talking so loudly, but not sure.

I get that Nicole was jealous of how much important Lorelai was to Luke, and Lindsay was jealous of Rory's history with Dean, but that is not the GG's fault. That's an issue both women needed to take up with their boyfriends. My feeling is, if you're not confident and comfortable that your man wants you and only you, why are you with him. 

At that time, I think Rory genuinely wanted Dean to be happy. That's why she apologized and offered him the catalog when he got engaged, adding in wedding advice from what she had learned in observing all the weddings Lorelai had coordinated at the inn over the years. Lorelai, while not a fan of Nicole, told Luke "you really like her" and encouraged him to go on the cruise with Nicole and enjoy himself. 

[marineg]

On 24/04/2018 at 12:54 AM, Bringonthedrama said:

I remember what you're talking about, and in that case I understood why Rory said that. Rory ran into Lindsay, and she thought it was weird that Lindsay snubbed her. Then Dean told her he and Lindsay were dating. Rory recalled an anecdote when she was in school with Lindsay, indicating Dean was dating a nice girl. Then Lindsay came to join Dean and snubbed both Lorelai and Rory. When Rory looked in Dean and Lindsay's direction during a town meeting (not even speaking to them), Lindsay caught her eye and looked displeased, and then quickly looked away.  Lorelai smiled toward Luke and Nicole in the town meeting, Nicole saw her smile, looked displeased, and then quickly looked away.   That's what Rory meant by the "Lindsay attitude." I don't think they were talking so loudly, but not sure.

I get that Nicole was jealous of how much important Lorelai was to Luke, and Lindsay was jealous of Rory's history with Dean, but that is not the GG's fault. That's an issue both women needed to take up with their boyfriends. My feeling is, if you're not confident and comfortable that your man wants you and only you, why are you with him. 

At that time, I think Rory genuinely wanted Dean to be happy. That's why she apologized and offered him the catalog when he got engaged, adding in wedding advice from what she had learned in observing all the weddings Lorelai had coordinated at the inn over the years. Lorelai, while not a fan of Nicole, told Luke "you really like her" and encouraged him to go on the cruise with Nicole and enjoy himself. 

I agree. The Gas are not responsible for that situation. Lindsay and Nicole acted very weirdly, possessive, and jealous. And you're right, if you're so afraid after only a few weeks of dating, there is a problem. And Nicole was mad because Luke kept talking about Lorelai on their first date. That wasn't Lorelai's fault, she had not yet dated Luke at that point and had done nothing wrong.

However, I do think that Rory was also possessive of Dean. She always was. When he got engaged, she rightfully said it was so fast or such a bad idea, but when he got married, she looked at them walking out of the church from afar and looked sad. She always felt that, as he was her first boyfriend (even though she wasn't his), he was hers. And then they had sex, and once again as he was her first (even though she wasn't his), he was hers. She behaved the same way with Jess, when she kissed him at Sookie's wedding and was still dating Dean, but felt that he shouldn't be with anyone else. Same with Logan in the revival; even though he was engaged, he was hers.

[andromeda331]

On ‎6‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 9:11 AM, marineg said:

I agree. The Gas are not responsible for that situation. Lindsay and Nicole acted very weirdly, possessive, and jealous. And you're right, if you're so afraid after only a few weeks of dating, there is a problem. And Nicole was mad because Luke kept talking about Lorelai on their first date. That wasn't Lorelai's fault, she had not yet dated Luke at that point and had done nothing wrong.

However, I do think that Rory was also possessive of Dean. She always was. When he got engaged, she rightfully said it was so fast or such a bad idea, but when he got married, she looked at them walking out of the church from afar and looked sad. She always felt that, as he was her first boyfriend (even though she wasn't his), he was hers. And then they had sex, and once again as he was her first (even though she wasn't his), he was hers. She behaved the same way with Jess, when she kissed him at Sookie's wedding and was still dating Dean, but felt that he shouldn't be with anyone else. Same with Logan in the revival; even though he was engaged, he was hers.

I agree. Rory's really annoying in her romances (yes I know Lorelai is too) I really don't think she comes off good. But a lot of it wouldn't be so bad if she learned from them. She knew most of season two she wanted to date Jess. She attracted to him. She didn't want to bail on the bidding on the basket and didn't get mad when Jess later admitted he did it on purpose rather then just ticking Dean off. Or get mad that he first claimed he was only doing it to tick Dean off. She sends Jess a lot of weird signals. She's with Dean but does come of interested in him. She kisses Jess at Sookie's wedding and acts ticked off when she sees Jess kissing another girl. Even Lorelai admits that's crappy of her and if she wants Jess then break up with Dean. Rory instead makes a list. I might feel bad for Rory if she felt bad about her feelings, confused by them or shown to be conflicted. But she mostly acts like she wants to be with Jess. Then breakup with him Rory. As much as I hate Jess I do like him asking if she's still with Dean when. And after deciding to stay with Dean Rory still acts all jealous and hung up on Jess. When Dean breaks up with her at the dance she has the nerve to be shocked. Really, Rory? Why are you surprised? After the way you treated him? After the way you've been acting at the dance-athon? I do wish Dean broke up with her back in the episode when he was calling her a lot and is force to admit Rory likes Jess. Why can't Rory be the one to realize she liked someone else and break up with him? Or learn from it so she doesn't do it again. So Dean and Rory are over, Rory immediately moves onto Jess. Who is not Dean. I understand it can be hard to adjust to a different guy's dating style. But Rory talks more about Dean when she's with Jess then she ever did when she was with Dean. Comparing the two, even though Lorelai points out that's not fair. The night she thought she and Jess had plans and he never came by. It never once occurs to her to call? Why? Maybe he's busy or a large party came in and he hasn't been able to get out of it. She doesn't call because...Dean never called. Well, your not with Dean your with Jess. And that's still no reason not to call. Or go by Luke's. Rory thinks so much of her new boyfriend that when he shows up late at her grandmother's with a black eye she immediately assumes he was fighting Dean. I know it ended up being swan which Jess should have told her but why immediately jump to Dean? Jess could have gotten in a fight with someone else and it had nothing to do with you. Season four Rory can't stop complaining about Lindsay. On one hand yes its stupid that Lindsay doesn't work but that's something for them to work out. Rory sleeps with a married Dean even though she's not really in love with him. Dates him in season five even though she clearly isn't interested. She is however interested in Logan although she's still dating Dean. She doesn't tell Logan she has a boyfriend. Not once during the LDB party and stunt and not until the end of the Party's Over. She's busy having fun with Logan and his friends and drinking in his praise about her newspaper article (something Dean failed at apparently since he said he liked it and that wasn't enough for her) while Dean's waiting outside who has no idea that Rory once again likes someone else while dating him. Once again its up to Dean to break up with her. Why? She knew she was losing interested. It would have been nice to see her do it this time. Admit or realize she wasn't in love with him and learn from it. Maybe she hoped to recapture old feelings or something. She's interested in Logan but doesn't think he is until Marty points it out to her. If this wasn't the third time a boy was clearing interested in her and doing stunts to end up with her it would make sense. Then she's surprised that Marty liked her too! Really Rory? How did you miss that? Is mad at Logan for the bridesmaids but instead of breaking up with him or even telling him that she doesn't trust him or can't or really anything just acts passive aggressive.    

[Taryn74]

10 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

But Rory talks more about Dean when she's with Jess then she ever did when she was with Dean.

I agree with everything you said about Rory but this part especially cracked me up.  So true!

[Bringonthedrama]

On 6/28/2018 at 1:42 AM, andromeda331 said:

When Dean breaks up with her at the dance she has the nerve to be shocked. Really, Rory? Why are you surprised?

I agree with you, except for this part. I took her reaction as hurt and especially embarrassment at a public humiliation. Dean was always so sweet and devoted that him calling her out *then* and *in that setting* is what took her by surprise.

Rory has been written as someone who is really uncomfortable with the possibility that anyone outside of Chilton would not like her and think highly of her. Her mom, her best friend and the Stars Hollow were so anti-Jess, and Dean was so devoted to her, that she stayed with Dean because it was safe.  I saw a lot of her behavior as having feelings for Jess but being in denial about it, and also not wanting to make her own life harder by breaking up with Dean to be with Jess. Rory's problem was that what she wanted in a boyfriend was Jess's snark, interests, intelligence, and looks but Dean's general reliability, devotion to her specifically, and ability to get along well with Lorelai and the Gilmores.  The guy Jess became after he left Stars Hollow is the type Rory wanted. She liked Logan and I think she figured once they had sex, he would immediately become a one-woman man. She was stunned and humiliated to find out he slept with his sister's friends after they had a big fight, and that he assumed they were "broken up."  Then in the revival, she seemed to think she was - or should be - the great love of his life.  I thought it was pretty clear he saw her as a long-term mistress.  She was really hurt when she realized he never had any intention of re-considering his engagement to his fiance. The possessiveness toward Dean while he was still married to Lindsay, and then toward Logan while he was engaged, definitely made her look bad. However, I think Lorelai, Richard and Emily treating her like she was the most brilliant, beautiful, sweet angel girl in the whole wide world during her teen-age years contributed to her behaving in such an entitled way.  

Edited June 30, 2018 by Bringonthedrama

[marineg]

21 hours ago, Bringonthedrama said:

However, I think Lorelai, Richard and Emily treating her like she was the most brilliant, beautiful, sweet angel girl in the whole wide world during her teen-age years contributed to her behaving in such an entitled way.  

YES ! 

 

Dean is an ass. Both times he broke up with Rory in a public setting, in front of her friends and loved ones. And then had the nerve to say she dumped him. Twice. And with a serious face.

[tabularasa]

Does anyone relate to Rory (revival one)? Like not living up to the expectations and screwing your life being your own undoing.

[chessiegal]

24 minutes ago, tabularasa said:

Does anyone relate to Rory (revival one)? Like not living up to the expectations and screwing your life being your own undoing.

Nope.

But I have to say, after watching every episode more times than I can remember, it's only in the last 6 months I've decided ASP intended for Rory to fail from day one. There are hints of it here and there, but I used to ignore them. Now I find them as an indicator of things to come.

[Taryn74]

1 hour ago, chessiegal said:

But I have to say, after watching every episode more times than I can remember, it's only in the last 6 months I've decided ASP intended for Rory to fail from day one. There are hints of it here and there, but I used to ignore them. Now I find them as an indicator of things to come.

Oh that's a fascinating discussion in the making! Care to share some of your observations?

[Anela]

On 10/12/2019 at 4:59 PM, tabularasa said:

Does anyone relate to Rory (revival one)? Like not living up to the expectations and screwing your life being your own undoing.

In ways, but it wasn't all because of myself. I definitely wanted more out of life. I didn't have an affair, though, nothing like that, and no pregnancy. I was one of the few who wasn't bothered by her situation, when the revival aired. 

[tabularasa]

On 10/17/2019 at 11:15 AM, Anela said:

In ways, but it wasn't all because of myself. I definitely wanted more out of life. I didn't have an affair, though, nothing like that, and no pregnancy. I was one of the few who wasn't bothered by her situation, when the revival aired. 

Me neither. No huge mistakes but my path was supposed to be brighter.

[MatildaMoody]

On 8/22/2016 at 10:30 AM, junienmomo said:

I can never look at the Prius without remembering that Emily wanted to give her a car to go to Chilton, which offended Lorelai enormously.  When the car served to transport Rory back and forth from Yale to see her mother, suddenly Lorelai was on board with the grandparents giving Rory a car. 

I don't recall Lorelai being offended. She was just very upfront about Rory not needing a car. Everything in Stars Hollow was in walking distance so Rory could easily take Lorelai's jeep if she needed transportation. Plus Rory never seemed to have an issue with taking the bus. Then, once Dean built her a car, she was again fine. Although, I don't think Rory ever drove it to Chilton, because she seemed content to take the bus there and back. 

Getting Rory a car for college was simply practical. She needed reliable transportation to get around while away at school.She also needed a reliable way to get home and to her grandparents' house for Friday Night Dinners. Plus, Lorelai admitted upfront that Rory having a car while at college was also a benefit for her. 

[MatildaMoody]

On 6/30/2018 at 5:30 PM, marineg said:

Dean is an ass. Both times he broke up with Rory in a public setting, in front of her friends and loved ones. And then had the nerve to say she dumped him. Twice. And with a serious face.

We only saw Dean break up with Rory once. They never showed the first breakup. He told her he loved her. She didn't say it back. They argued and then he said he would take her home. Rory told Lorelai that Dean broke up with her, but we never actually saw it. And it definitely was not public.

The second breakup was public, but it was also Dean having had enough of Rory not even pretending that she wasn't interested in Jess. At this point Rory had been humiliating Dean for weeks and still he hung on. The dance marathon was the last straw and I totally understood it. Instead of focusing on Dean being there and trying to help her and her mom win the contest by stepping in at the last minute, all Rory could do was focus on arguing with Jess. I can't imagine how humiliating it would be to witness how interested my girlfriend is in another person while she was dancing with me. 

[marineg]

42 minutes ago, MatildaMoody said:

We only saw Dean break up with Rory once. They never showed the first breakup.

Actually we saw two break ups. At the dance marathon and at the male Yale party thrown by the Gilmore. Both were public. Both were inappropriate.

I hadn't included the very first break up, because as you said, it was not public. But if you want to talk about, I'm game. It's an additional proof that Dean is an ass. What of person says one second that they love someone, and the next break up with them because she, at 16 year old, and after solely 3 months of dating cannot day "I love you" back? She explained to him very calmly that it was hard for her to let herself go there after her issues between her mom and her father, as well as her own relationship with her father. That was a good explanation, and any sane loving person would have reacted by saying she should take her time, and showing her that love at 16 can be a good thing. Instead he yelled and made her feel bad about herself, as he always did.
In "P.S. I Lo...," he acted as if he didn't break up with Rory, and as if Rory was at fault, and that pisses me off.

"You know, I am sick and tired of everyone blaming this thing on me. I mean, you and the whole stupid town looking at me like I'm a criminal. I say 'I love you' and she just sits there and I'm the jerk? I'm the bad guy?"

She didn't just sit there, she gave him a good explanation for not being able to say the words. She didn't ask to break up, and yes, we didn't see the actual scene, but I am 99% sure that it wasn't Rory who decided not to see Dean anymore.

51 minutes ago, MatildaMoody said:

At this point Rory had been humiliating Dean for weeks and still he hung on.

As much as I agree that Rory didn't behave appropriately, and should have broken up with Dean weeks prior, right after the kiss with Jess, I don't agree that Dean was humiliated. I will even add that his stalker-like behavior made things worse for Rory. She didn't just start loving/liking Jess. She stopped loving Dean. Again, she should have done something about it, no doubt, but he behaved in a way that wasn't okay. In "Hammers and Veils", he was intolerant when she said she needed to go to school during the summer and work on her resume for college. He first asked her to blow off building the house (even though it was school sanctioned activity). Then, when he sees her dirty, and sad, and freaking out about college, instead of reassuring her, and maybe offering to help on with her research, he gets mad that she can't go see a movie with him... He also was extremely jealous and verbally violent when he found Jess in her house even though she didn't invite him, and it wasn't a date since Paris was there.

I know this is an UO, but i do believe Dean showed signs of having abusive tendencies:
- He would actively scream at Rory, and then leave her to beg him not to be mad and forgive her (even when he was in the wrong)
- He would make her feel bad about herself and belittle her for no reason, like with the Donna show, or about going to school dances and cotillions
- He expected his good actions to be rewarded or he would not do them (like going to dances, or when he took Rory to a restaurant, built her a car, and said I love you)
- He was controlling about what she could do, who she could see, where she could go
- He expected Rory to spend any free time she had with him
- He never allowed Rory to have boy friends, whether it be Tristin or Jess, even though she was never really friends with Tristin, and before Rory started liking Jess
- He threatened both men physically on more than one occasion, going as far as saying "I would kill you" to Tristin
- He was charming the people surrounding her, making them love him
- He made Rory feel sufficiently scared that she was afraid to tell him about the bracelet, and about Jess destroying her car, and with good reason as he was visibly agitated when he found out about both
- He had stalking tendencies, calling 20 times in an hour, or showing up at her house and waiting hours for her
- He stalked Rory even before he knew her
- He was jealous, and aggressive when he found Jess showing up at Yale, ignoring Rory the next day, as if she was responsible
- He was threatened by Rory's ambition
- He was emotionally abusive towards Lindsay, screaming and yelling at her for no reason, and once again, making her beg to be forgiven
- He lied to both Rory and Lindsay when he cheated on his marriage, telling Rory he was leaving his wife and then laughing and having a nice evening with his wife (and when he said he would have left Lindsey if she hadn't found the letter)
- He broke up with Rory in public twice, by making her the bad guy
- He tried to take down Luke and Lorelai's relationship

I have a lot more examples...

[Taryn74]

Dear G-d YES to everything you just said, @marineg. I hate Dean so much it actually makes me feel like I should apologize to Jared P (who seems like a genuinely decent, sweet, and charming guy) for it. I think Dean is awful in every season except for the brief moment we saw him in AYITL, for all the reasons you laid out.

I was legitimately afraid for Rory in both Help Wanted (when she gave Dean the letter about the car) and There's the Rub, even though I knew the show probably wouldn't "go there" because it was too family friendly and ASP had Dean-colored glasses on so she would never make him truly be physically violent toward Rory. But IRL? I fully believe those situations would have had a different outcome.

[marineg]

Exactly! I think about a 16yo having a relationship with someone who behaves this way and it's actually scary. We are put in a bubble when watching the show, which is what we are looking for in a way, but in real life (or another more dramatic show), Dean would be perceived differently. There is nothing that he does from the goodness of his heart. Everything is a trade off, in a manipulative way.

And same about Jared!

[Kohola3]

UO, I loved Dean and I felt sorry for him with his devotion to the flighty princess.  He could clearly see her obsession with Jess and I don't blame him one bit for walking out on her at the dance marathon were she WAS humiliating him in public with her attention to Jess  Would Rory have gotten all of this hate if the roles were reversed?

[scarynikki12]

I think it's a combo of Jared going over the top when Dean was upset and Alexis' playing Rory as intimidated and frightened. She had more of these scenes with Jared but there were scenes with Jess and even Lane where she would say some variation of "please don't be mad" in the same way she would when dealing with Dean's anger and, combined with her poor posture, made it look like Rory was scared of the people her age who were closest to her. And this may have been on purpose since I don't remember seeing her behave this way around Paris, Tristan, the other kids at Chilton, or even the adults. I don't know why she'd have been directed to act scared of Lane (though she did end up being closer to Paris as the series went on) but I think it was to make sure the audience would be ok with the breakups with Dean and Jess when the time came. My question then becomes why the Ps would want to show Rory scared of her boyfriends when they didn't want to actually deal with it.

[Taryn74]

1 hour ago, scarynikki12 said:

I think it's a combo of Jared going over the top when Dean was upset and Alexis' playing Rory as intimidated and frightened. 

Plus, JP just being so tall. Heh.

To be clear, I don't think ASP really intended for Dean to come off scary, he just did. I'm already hypersensitive to emotional abuse due to some things in my background, so alarm bells usually start ringing for me pretty early. But, there's a lot of things I think ASP believes are normal and healthy which.....aren't. Ha ha.

I don't remember Rory ever acting "afraid" of Lane or Jess in that way, but I could be overlooking something. Do you have any specific examples?

[scarynikki12]

The Lane example is after the last Korean wedding in season 3 when Rory is leaving to meet Jess rather than go to the reception. It’s part of the conversation where it’s acknowledged that Lane still doesn’t like him. To be fair it’s the only one I have where Rory acts intimidated with her. 
With Jess it was various moments once they got together. I’ll have to check Netflix to get the specifics. 

[marineg]

But she wasn't actually scared or intimidated in my opinion. She was upset that Jess wasn't there for her, and seeing that the people around her didn't exactly like Jess. That was Rory being pensive on her relationship, not being afraid of Lane.

And yes, I would like to know when she was afraid of Jess, because apart from the moment at the party, I don't recall ever seeing her afraid of Jess.

[Taryn74]

Can I just take a moment to say how freaking awesome I think it is that we can still have such deep, meaningful conversations about a show that first aired almost 20 years ago?! I love this board so much.

Carry on.

[andromeda331]

6 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

UO, I loved Dean and I felt sorry for him with his devotion to the flighty princess.  He could clearly see her obsession with Jess and I don't blame him one bit for walking out on her at the dance marathon were she WAS humiliating him in public with her attention to Jess  Would Rory have gotten all of this hate if the roles were reversed?

I liked Dean in season one. I felt sorry for him too as it became clear Rory was obsessed with Jess and wouldn't break up with him. I always wished Dean would have broken up with Jess in the season two episode when he kept calling her all the time and at the end admits to Lorelai that Rory likes Jess. I don't blame him for breaking up with her at the dance-thon. She still kept mooning over Jess despite still being with Dean. Even Lorelai pointed out how crappy that was in the first episode of season three when Rory rants after seeing Jess with Shane. She should have broken up with him in that episode or the next one when she's all mad at Jess for being with Shane, even though again she's still with Dean and decided at the end of the last episode to remain with Dean. Look at Rory's behavior at the dance-athon. She at one point even tries to use Dean to make Jess jealous after Jess puts his arm around Shane she tries to do the same thing with Dean who won't have it. But he seems to forget all about it for a moment when he fills in for Lorelai dancing with Rory. But Rory can't stop talking about and fighting with Jess. I don't blame him one bit for finally having enough and breaking up with her.