S09.E13: The Purge

[DittyDotDot]

Sam and Dean go undercover at a spa to investigate the recent rash of deaths where people have had all the fat sucked from their bodies.

 

This episode could easily be a stand out for me--I love Sheriff Donna coupled with a set up for some fun and a break from the endless demon angel wars and a new monster--sounds pretty good, don't it? Sadly, it is not! I just don't find it entertaining to watch two grown men acting like petty little jerks. And I'm not talking about the bitchiness at the end of the episode, but their entire tit-for-tat throughout the episode. I appreciate that they both have valid points of view, I would just prefer them to express them less like 12-year-olds. Oh, and in the end, the case of the week was really boring to boot. Sigh. Seriously, all that boring and tensionless sulking around in the basement was just a snoozefest.

 

I do find it amusing how this might be the first time Sam fit in somewhere and Dean didn't, though.

 

My only comment about the end bitchfest: I get what they were trying to do with it and all; they just did it poorly. But then again, the show can't let them out of their holding pattern too soon, there's still plenty of angst to milk from this, right?

 

Good to end on...Jared looks comfy in his sweatsuit. That's all I got. Oh wait, I really do love Sheriff Donna!

[Goldmoon]

Oh, this is why folks ship Donna and Dean.  I loved his reasoning of why some people like a little padding in their partners. Did you hear yourself there, Dean?  The mystery was boring and here again, we have Sam saying that they don't have to kill the monster when he was all about Benny-hate last season.  No one can walk into a yoga class and teach without certification.  Would have liked to see Dean try that though.  Him and yoga would have been comedy gold.

[GirlyGeek]

MOTW was ok, nothing spectacular. Though Donna is great.

Tension between the boys is not making me happy and it's not fun to watch, especially in retrospect. The talk at the end infuriated me the first time around, not gonna lie. Especially Sam's 'you're happy to do the sacrificing as long as you're not the one getting hurt'. I'm sorry, WHAT? Makes no sense and isn't what we've seen of Dean ever.

I do believe that both boys are telling *their* (current) truth, so I can't fault them for saying that's how they feel right now, even if I don't agree.

Dean really would make the same choice all over again to save Sam. Sam really believes he wouldn't save Dean under the same circumstances. Sam really seems to believe Dean saved him so he wouldn't be alone.

What I don't like is w Sam is putting *his* decision to stop the trials in the church on Dean, now. Dean didn't force Sam to stop the trials. Sam agreed with Dean on some level and stopped the trials, even asked Dean how he should stop the trials. So, I don't like that Sam is making it seem like Dean is at fault for Sam's decision. Not cool.

Totally shallow note: Jensen/Dean is looking really good the last few eps. Sheesh

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Yeesh - I thought the Sam speech at the end of Sharp Teeth was bad.  The one at the end of this ep was much, much worse.  What the hell is wrong with Sam?  I get what's wrong with Dean - I'm sure the whole Mark thing is working weird and wonky things on him.  And I understand Sam being mad about Dean lying, and even about his agency being taken away with the Gadreel possession.  But I don't understand his anger? at Dean saving his life and still being alive.  Dude, if that's the way you feel, just put a damn bullet in your head and spare the rest of us the EFing melodrama.

Dean's eagerness to kill the fishtaco lady (can't remember the name) who not only helped them kill one of her kind - it was her brother - made absolutely no sense after letting Garth and a whole pack of werewolves live in the last ep.  I don't understand why she even had to go back to Peru.  Did they banish Garth and Co to Canada?

I liked Sheriff Donna.  She was delightful.  

Sam doing yoga was fun, as was Dean in a hairnet.  :)

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

 What the hell is wrong with Sam?

The writers didn't want to really explore Dean's role in the conflict anymore, but they still wanted angst, so they decided to turn Sam into the worst brother ever again in order to keep the conflict going? Really, that's what I came up with, because as I said over in the "All Episodes" thread, in my opinion, Sam did have a legitimate beef about being lied to, but instead of having Sam talk about that, they have him argue stuff that isn't true and blame Dean for stuff that isn't his fault, so that Sam looks like he's in the wrong.

As I commented in the last episode thread and somewhere else, I really do think Sam was mostly an afterthought this season, and used mainly to further Dean's plot... which would've been fine if they let Sam at least have a legitimate point in... well, anything or actually explored Sam's feelings, but nope.

That end part was where I wanted to throw something at the screen. At the beginning of the season with the first few episodes and Sam talking about feeling "wrong" and such, I thought that the show was going to explore that, but with this episode and that speech, I pretty much got the message that nope, this was just gonna be another Sam, the crappy brother, plot point. For angst reasons.

Again I say: Bite me, show.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Yeah, it would have been so much better if the show had stuck with Sam being mad about being lied to - and legitimately feeling like he couldn't trust Dean because he was tricked into allowing an angel possession and his agency was taken away in that respect.  But blaming Dean for him not finishing the trials?  And choosing to live instead of die?  Naw, that's just wrong.

[Dobian]

"Fish Tacos" and Fargo Lady pretty much sums up the episode for me.  You betcha.

[DittyDotDot]

Break-up beard! I totally had forgotten about the break-up beard. Silly me, I always forget the important stuff. ;)

Anyhoo, make up your mind Sam, either you should've died or you don't deserve to die. Seriously! And, I'll say it again, if the trials are so damned important to you to finish, then go, finish them. Should be easy peasy since you actually know how to that now...sheesh!

And Dean, you did what you did, you don't really need to apologize for it, but you also can't force Sam to get over it. Sorry, you're just making Sam dig in his heals and prolonging the bitchfest. I get you're sick of it--boy do I get it, my patience is stretched pretty thin with it too--but, I think you're just gonna have to ride this one out. And, I think, the ride would be easier if you didn't make it longer and bumpier. Just sayin'. ;)

On 8/5/2016 at 8:52 PM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Dean's eagerness to kill the fishtaco lady (can't remember the name) who not only helped them kill one of her kind - it was her brother - made absolutely no sense after letting Garth and a whole pack of werewolves live in the last ep.  I don't understand why she even had to go back to Peru.  Did they banish Garth and Co to Canada?

Yeah, it doesn't make any sense to me either. I've been annoyed with how they handled some witch cases in the past because it seemed like they just left the witches to continue on doing what they do, but here they decide to send this "monster" to another country...what's that solve? I guess some other hunter would've probably come along after them and finished the job, but it seems she's in danger of that no matter where she goes. Plus, sending her back to Peru seems like they're just putting her in a position where she'll probably start killing people again since she's lost her support system and doesn't have a her spa to help manage her hunger anymore. And, it's not like they can just pop back in to fix things all that easily with her in another country. 

Feels like they did it only because they didn't want to deal with people shouting at them for killing a "friendly" monster--and a woman too boot. But, IMO, they hold a certain responsibility to make sure she's not a danger to people if they're going to let her live. Unless they're willing to be these monsters' protectors and/or parole officers, they're going to have to make the tough call at times. It sucks, but it's the job, IMO.

Which now I'm kinda thinking an interesting episode could be them coming across a weird little town of monster refugees. Monsters who don't actively kill humanity to live and have sought shelter and safety together. Hmmm?

Edited September 24, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[sarthaz]

Every day now, when I'm watching eps on TNT, they run multiple ads for "Passages Malibu".  Check out the video.  This place is totally Canyon Valley!!

 

[bettername2come]

Okay, I have to question the lady who takes off her engagement ring to get on the scale, but leaves on the shoes and sweatshirt. Dean yelling "Kicking ass and taking names" and hitting the table - suddenly reminding me of James Roday on Psych. Sam's wearing shorts and a tank! Thank you! And that little smirk when he says "you're not the only one who's dated someone bendy." I love Donna. She's just such a ray of sunshine. "Doug's a dick. You deserve better." Truer words rarely spoken. I like this one. Maritza's a likable monster and I like when Sam and Dean actually have to do work in their cover jobs - the ranch, the school, as PA's, "acting." I'm gonna choose to believe they discussed it and decided to let her stay since she's not a killer. 

I would totally make a deal with a Peruvian fatsucker. Just gonna be honest. 

On 9/24/2016 at 9:43 AM, DittyDotDot said:

Which now I'm kinda thinking an interesting episode could be them coming across a weird little town of monster refugees. Monsters who don't actively kill humanity to live and have sought shelter and safety together. Hmmm?

This feels like a spinoff idea.

[Hanahope]

So first that was a bad decision by the boys to send the lady back to Peru.  Why not let her stay? She helps people, she's not killing them. Makes no sense.

and again with the drama at the end, enough already.  Yeah Dean will always save Sam, that's what he has always done since he was a kid. Its his purpose. It's what older siblings do,they take care of their younger siblings.

Sam will not do the same for Dean, they've  known that since Ruby and we saw it again when Dean went to purgatory.  That should not be any surprise to Dean. And I agree that if Sam feels so bad that he should have died, then he shouldn't have stopped, but pulled away from Dean and purified Crowley.  Sam could have said no to Dean. And they both had to know how the trials would end, that's how such things always end.

So Sam, make up your mind.  Stay or go. If you stay, then shut up.

Now, where can I find the fat sucking lady's new spa?

Edited August 25, 2017 by Hanahope

[Wayward Son]

Good things about this episode... The delightful introduction of Sheriff Donna and getting to see Sam in shorts! That’s about it. 

 

Im not going to get into the end speech since I’ve done enough of that in Bitch vs Jerk, but I’m not a fan of the whole “If a hunter had come across me while I was possessed by Gadreel would I have deserved to die?” argument from Sam. You don’t get to argue about the rights of vessels Sam when 9/10 times your policy is kill the vessel (and demon meatsuits) first ask questions later. 

[catrox14]

S13 spoilers

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

“If a hunter had come across me while I was possessed by Gadreel would I have deserved to die?” argument from Sam.

 

Spoiler

Holy crap! I had totally forgotten about it, interesting considering the events of s13 thus far. I have thoughts on this that I'll take to B v J although it's not really Sam vs Dean but about Sam. Hmmm not sure about the best place. Maybe all seasons. I dunno, I'll figure it out. LOL

[Iju]

aw, i love donna. i wanted to protect her when she was all smiles talking to the boys. and is it so wrong of me to say that i haven't found sam attractive the whole time until he was in his gym/spa clothes?  it was like looking at him for the for time.

another rant in spoiler:

okay what the hell. is there something wrong with sam????? or is he being himself with his "i wouldn't save you BS" because WTF, it's just not true!! just as dean was being a HUGE bitch last season, they switch that to sam and 1000x worse. and why did he have to kill dean like that, as if he wouldn't KNOW that would break his heart. it's as if the writers watched 3 episodes of SPN! it's like they just met! "I'm keeping our relationship business" oh SHUT UP sam. YOU'RE ALIVE. DEAL WITH IT AND MOVE ON. you know when people always tell dean they are jealous, because they're not sure a brother like himself would do the same for them? well he should just tell them don't even get jealous because my brother takes way too much advantage of it.

i want to tell dean that even though he's breaking right now, he shouldn't believe sam. because it's a freaking lie. it's a lie! that's all it is. it means NOTHING. sam is so freaking cold at dean right now, it's like he's soulless right now. what were the writers thinking. i hope that this isn't dragged out the entire season, this is just way too much to bear.

On 16/04/2015 at 1:08 AM, GirlyGeek said:

Totally shallow note: Jensen/Dean is looking really good the last few eps. Sheesh

it's probably the beard. no, definitely the beard. i've been forcing myself to push down some thoughts of him recently since the first eps, i'm such a dirty soul, smh

[BabySpinach]

I like how Sam, after he's said and done much worse to Dean for much less sympathetic reasons, found it justifiable to disown Dean after he betrayed his trust, FOR THE FIRST TIME, out of desperation and love. Sam demanded that he let go of his anger over being abandoned in Purgatory, yet he couldn't let go of Dean lying to save him. If this was all it took for Sam to disown and verbally decimate his brother, lord knows how he would have reacted if Dean had been the one drinking demon blood and lying about it, banging a demon, mocking Sam for being weak and inadequate after 40 years in hell, choking him half to death, or abandoning him (plus an innocent civilian) without ever confirming his death. 

I still can't believe how far they threw Sam's character down the toilet in season 9. He could have been mad about Gadreel like a regular person and struggled to get past it without dunking his brother's life purpose and self esteem into the garbage, then waffling non-stop about how he WANTED TO DIEEEEE (even though we were shown that he clearly didn't). First Born 10.11 seemed to set him on a more sympathetic course, but I guess Robbie Thompson hadn't gotten the memo to make Sam as cartoonishly dickish and nonsensically petty as possible. 

Dean fans had to watch their favorite character get verbally demolished by the person he loved most in the world. Sam fans had to watch their favorite character act like a complete asshole without rhyme or reason. Everyone lost on that count, and

Spoiler

I'm very glad that the times of manufactured uber-angst via character assassination are now behind us (hopefully).

[DeeDee79]

42 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

I like how Sam, after he's said and done much worse to Dean for much less sympathetic reasons, found it justifiable to disown Dean after he betrayed his trust, FOR THE FIRST TIME, out of desperation and love. Sam demanded that he let go of his anger over being abandoned in Purgatory, yet he couldn't let go of Dean lying to save him. If this was all it took for Sam to disown and verbally decimate his brother, lord knows how he would have reacted if Dean had been the one drinking demon blood and lying about it, banging a demon, mocking Sam for being weak and inadequate after 40 years in hell, choking him half to death, or abandoning him (plus an innocent civilian) without ever confirming his death. 

I still can't believe how far they threw Sam's character down the toilet in season 9. He could have been mad about Gadreel like a regular person and struggled to get past it without dunking his brother's life purpose and self esteem into the garbage, then waffling non-stop about how he WANTED TO DIEEEEE (even though we were shown that he clearly didn't). First Born 10.11 seemed to set him on a more sympathetic course, but I guess Robbie Thompson hadn't gotten the memo to make Sam as cartoonishly dickish and nonsensically petty as possible. 

Dean fans had to watch their favorite character get verbally demolished by the person he loved most in the world. Sam fans had to watch their favorite character act like a complete asshole without rhyme or reason. Everyone lost on that count, and

  Hide contents

I'm very glad that the times of manufactured uber-angst via character assassination are now behind us (hopefully).

I agree. I've never rewatched this episode after my first viewing. It was truly sickening.

[catrox14]

You know...after rewatching this episode many times and that speech from Sam, I think they were going for Sam being outraged that Dean violated his agency in an attempt to highlight the unhealthy enmeshed relationship between Dean and Sam and to demonstrate that Dean, indeed just can't let Sam die, that Sam's life matters more than anything else.

And canonically, it's been shown repeatedly that Dean lived just fine without Sam back in s1 when Sam was at college. He had a relationship with Cassie which Sam knew nothing about.

Dean didn't sell his soul so he could be with Sam in death in s2. If it were the case that Dean couldn't live without Sam,  Dean could have just killed himself but he didn't.  The point was for Dean to make sure Sam was alive and he was willing to trade his life for Sam's.

It was shown when he split from Sam in s5 and was mostly either hunting alone and spending some time with Castiel. He had some fun with Castiel because he wasn't fretting about Sam. He still cared about him but he had some respite from his worries.  

His time surviving in Purgatory without Sam and his friendship with Benny.The entire point really of Dean's life was to always make sure Sam was alive. That is canonical. That is what John raised Dean to do, even beyond hunting. Sure, that poor 9 year old Dean made a mistake cause he was a damn child himself, but that also reinforced that Dean must always put Sam first when he was in Sam's life.  And once John went missing, Dean asked Sam to help him and then later, he learned he would have to save him or kill him. 

He watched him be possessed by Lucifer, who almost killed him and sought a way to free him from the Cage but still tried to have a life with Lisa. 

In Purgatory,  Dean wanted to get back home, but the interesting thing to me about that is that Sam was rarely mentioned in the Purgatory sequences. It was all about Dean surviving and staying longer until Cas was saved as well.  And IMO that's because Dean  believed Sam was alive and well and looking for a way to save him.

The key IMO between Dean and Sam is not some messed up "faux romantic" thing and Dean just can't live without Sam (he can as I've noted above). It's that Dean can't live with Sam dead because of the way Dean was raised to put Sam first, regardless of anything else. 

And that is IMO what Sam can't understand because well, he'd never considered it from that perspective, IMO.   

[BabySpinach]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

You know...after rewatching this episode many times and that speech from Sam, I think they were going for Sam being outraged that Dean violated his agency in an attempt to highlight the unhealthy enmeshed relationship between Dean and Sam and to demonstrate that Dean, indeed just can't let Sam die, that Sam's life matters more than anything else.

And canonically, it's been shown repeatedly that Dean lived just fine without Sam back in s1 when Sam was at college. He had a relationship with Cassie which Sam knew nothing about.

Dean didn't sell his soul so he could be with Sam in death in s2. If it were the case that Dean couldn't live without Sam,  Dean could have just killed himself but he didn't.  The point was for Dean to make sure Sam was alive and he was willing to trade his life for Sam's.

It was shown when he split from Sam in s5 and was mostly either hunting alone and spending some time with Castiel. He had some fun with Castiel because he wasn't fretting about Sam. He still cared about him but he had some respite from his worries.  

His time surviving in Purgatory without Sam and his friendship with Benny.The entire point really of Dean's life was to always make sure Sam was alive. That is canonical. That is what John raised Dean to do, even beyond hunting. Sure, that poor 9 year old Dean made a mistake cause he was a damn child himself, but that also reinforced that Dean must always put Sam first when he was in Sam's life.  And once John went missing, Dean asked Sam to help him and then later, he learned he would have to save him or kill him. 

He watched him be possessed by Lucifer, who almost killed him and sought a way to free him from the Cage but still tried to have a life with Lisa. 

In Purgatory,  Dean wanted to get back home, but the interesting thing to me about that is that Sam was rarely mentioned in the Purgatory sequences. It was all about Dean surviving and staying longer until Cas was saved as well.  And IMO that's because Dean  believed Sam was alive and well and looking for a way to save him.

The key IMO between Dean and Sam is not some messed up "faux romantic" thing and Dean just can't live without Sam (he can as I've noted above). It's that Dean can't live with Sam dead because of the way Dean was raised to put Sam first, regardless of anything else. 

And that is IMO what Sam can't understand because well, he'd never considered it from that perspective, IMO.   

Dean's love for Sam being labelled as selfish has always annoyed me. The lengths he'd go to for Sam are certainly unhealthy and worrying, but his love for him is the very opposite of selfish. Dean has always been open to Sam building a life away from him if that made him happy, as long as Sam didn't cut off contact and treat Dean like a shameful relic of a past he'd rather forget, run away without confirming Dean's death, or leave an innocent kid twisting in the wind.

The fact that he was willing to only live another year proves how it was more about Sam being alive than Dean being without his brother back in season 2. It's definitely more of a parent's mindset than a sibling's, thanks mostly to John's *stellar* job in raising Dean. And who would ever call a parent selfish and terrible for doing everything in their power to save their child?

Edited August 21, 2018 by BabySpinach

[AwesomO4000]

10 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

And who would ever call a parent selfish and terrible for doing everything in their power to save their child?

No one - unless that "everything in their power" hurts others... and I'm not saying that Dean did that here per se, but for me, the problem isn't that Dean does what he can to save Sam, but that Dean expects Sam to live with different consequences than he is/was willing to live with himself and/or not be pissed off about things that he himself would or did get pissed off about when the situations were reversed. I could elaborate if desired, but I would have to move the rest of the explanation to "Bitch vs Jerk" to be safe and because I'd be mentioning future happenings, and I don't want to have to spoiler tag a bunch of stuff. Basically I'm referring to John making his deal vs Dean making his and

Spoiler

Kevin vs Charlie.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

The key IMO between Dean and Sam is not some messed up "faux romantic" thing and Dean just can't live without Sam (he can as I've noted above). It's that Dean can't live with Sam dead because of the way Dean was raised to put Sam first, regardless of anything else. 

And that is IMO what Sam can't understand because well, he'd never considered it from that perspective, IMO. 

I agree mostly. Just as Dean can't understand Sam's perspective of being left with the consequences for some reason, even when Dean went through similar consequences himself. (And I'm referring to the deal here mostly. This Gadreel thing was a whole other kettle of fish.)

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Dean didn't sell his soul so he could be with Sam in death in s2. If it were the case that Dean couldn't live without Sam,  Dean could have just killed himself but he didn't.  The point was for Dean to make sure Sam was alive and he was willing to trade his life for Sam's.

It was shown when he split from Sam in s5 and was mostly either hunting alone and spending some time with Castiel. He had some fun with Castiel because he wasn't fretting about Sam. He still cared about him but he had some respite from his worries.  

And I think Sam knows this. And I think it makes him feel like a burden on Dean, and like Dean sees Sam as a burden.*** And I think this is part of Sam's frustration and why he blurts out things like "you have to let me grow up," because Sam doesn't want to feel like a burden on Dean, but when Dean does stuff like make the deal or end up accidentally sacrificing Kevin to make sure Sam stays alive, that does make Sam feel like a burden. Rather than Sam seeing it is as something Dean wanted to do, it makes Sam see it as something Dean feels he has to do, and Sam doesn't want to be the cause of that - hence his frustration and anger.

So - at least until this stupid speech - I didn't think it was that Sam didn't understand Dean's motivation per se. I thought it was that Sam was worried that he did understand Dean's motivation: that Dean does these things because he feels he has to, and that's the part that frustrated Sam - and that's pretty much what Sam communicated to Dean in "All Hell... pt 2"... But apparently, according to this stupid episode, I was wrong about that, and Sam just thinks Dean doesn't want to be alone... so whatever. I'll leave the rest of my thoughts here out since they devolve into "Bitch vs Jerk" territory.

Have I mentioned lately how much I loathe this episode?

***

Spoiler

It's why what Demon Dean in "Soul Survivor" said cut so deeply. Sam may have said that that wasn't Dean talking but the demon, but I think some part of him felt that it was true, and it reinforced his fears about that.

[gonzosgirrl]

48 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

Dean's love for Sam being labelled as selfish has always annoyed me. The lengths he'd go to for Sam are certainly unhealthy and worrying, but his love for him is the very opposite of selfish. Dean has always been open to Sam building a life away from him if that made him happy, as long as Sam didn't cut off contact and treat Dean like a shameful relic of a past he'd rather forget, run away without confirming Dean's death, or leave an innocent kid twisting in the wind.

The fact that he was willing to only live another year proves how it was more about Sam being alive than Dean being without his brother back in season 2. It's definitely more of a parent's mindset than a sibling's, thanks mostly to John's *stellar* job in raising Dean. And who would ever call a parent selfish and terrible for doing everything in their power to save their child?

Couldn't agree more. As both you and @catrox14 point out, Dean has shown time and again that he can live without Sam. Does he want to? Of course not - what loving brother (parent) would say they would be happy to live without their sibling? But he was far from suicidal (or fratricidal) the times Sam left, and he supported Sam in his choice to sacrifice himself to re-cage Lucifer. Having Sam use 'selfish', of all the pejoratives they could have chosen, was the most ridiculous of all. And then doubling down, not only saying he was self-serving in saving Sam's life, but that his entire raison d'etre was just a lie he was telling himself.  Although I'm sure it was not the writers' intent, I hated Sam in that moment.

Spoiler

And if I thought maybe I could forgive him it, along came the next two episodes and sealed the deal.

I've never been able to see Sam the same way again. 

[AwesomO4000]

12 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

I still can't believe how far they threw Sam's character down the toilet in season 9. He could have been mad about Gadreel like a regular person and struggled to get past it without dunking his brother's life purpose and self esteem into the garbage, then waffling non-stop about how he WANTED TO DIEEEEE (even though we were shown that he clearly didn't). First Born 10.11 seemed to set him on a more sympathetic course, but I guess Robbie Thompson hadn't gotten the memo to make Sam as cartoonishly dickish and nonsensically petty as possible. 

Dean fans had to watch their favorite character get verbally demolished by the person he loved most in the world. Sam fans had to watch their favorite character act like a complete asshole without rhyme or reason. Everyone lost on that count, and

  Reveal hidden contents

I'm very glad that the times of manufactured uber-angst via character assassination are now behind us (hopefully).

Yes, to all of this!

(I would've liked your post, but I didn't quite agree with the first paragraph for reasons too complicated and off topic to address... And season 9 is just so damn tedious, it wears me out even thinking about it.)

[trxr4kids]

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

The key IMO between Dean and Sam is not some messed up "faux romantic" thing and Dean just can't live without Sam (he can as I've noted above). It's that Dean can't live with Sam dead because of the way Dean was raised to put Sam first, regardless of anything else. 

100% agree. I want a like plus option since 1 like isn't enough. 

[Pondlass1]

I often wonder how that Purge speech got tacked onto that episode.  We laughed at powdered doughnuts and fish tacos and then suddenly Sam is saying the most cutting hurtful dreadful things to his brother. 

Sam holds on tight to any perceived pique and was afforded episode after episode to drag around his resentment and anger.   Dean on the other hand must suck it up or he's called a princess who's having a pity party.

This is one aspect of Sam's character that seems to have improved. Thanks writers.  Even die hard Sam fans were having trouble defending him during those seasons.

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

I often wonder how that Purge speech got tacked onto that episode.  We laughed at powdered doughnuts and fish tacos and then suddenly Sam is saying the most cutting hurtful dreadful things to his brother. 

Sam holds on tight to any perceived pique and was afforded episode after episode to drag around his resentment and anger.   Dean on the other hand must suck it up or he's called a princess who's having a pity party.

This is one aspect of Sam's character that seems to have improved. Thanks writers.  Even die hard Sam fans were having trouble defending him during those seasons.

My response taken over to the "Bitch vs Jerk" thread.

[AwesomO4000]

On 8/21/2018 at 5:59 AM, BabySpinach said:

I like how Sam, after he's said and done much worse to Dean for much less sympathetic reasons, found it justifiable to disown Dean after he betrayed his trust, FOR THE FIRST TIME, out of desperation and love. Sam demanded that he let go of his anger over being abandoned in Purgatory, yet he couldn't let go of Dean lying to save him. If this was all it took for Sam to disown and verbally decimate his brother, lord knows how he would have reacted if Dean had been the one drinking demon blood and lying about it, banging a demon, mocking Sam for being weak and inadequate after 40 years in hell, choking him half to death, or abandoning him (plus an innocent civilian) without ever confirming his death. 

Taken to the "All Episodes Thread" (mostly because I couldn't find the season 7 discussion thread, but it turned out that I also discussed season 9, too, so it worked out anyway).

[hypnotoad]

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I still can't believe how far they threw Sam's character down the toilet in season 9. He could have been mad about Gadreel like a regular person and struggled to get past it without dunking his brother's life purpose and self esteem into the garbage, then waffling non-stop about how he WANTED TO DIEEEEE (even though we were shown that he clearly didn't).

OMG -so much this! I barely got through season 8 but will say season 9 is better (though that is kind of faint praise if I am being honest). However, this whole conflict is just dumb. First with Dean's whole revisit of his allegedly being poison (come on) and now this whole Sam blah blahing about wanting to die and how he wouldn't have done the same thing if the roles were reversed. I may not be the Supernatural super fan some are but even I know that's pure nonsense. Wasn't Sam running all over the place trying to figure out how to get save Dean from the cross roads deal? In Mystery Spot didn't Sam try to save Dean over and over again?!? I hate this fake conflict stuff from the writers. Hate.

I'm not saying Sam didn't have a right to be upset about an angel taking over his meat suit without his permission. After everything with Lucifer I can understand him not being thrilled at the idea. But to say he wouldn't save Dean if Dean was dying and all the rest? Shut up Sam (and I don't like saying that because I am a Sam fan).

The writers have really run Sam over in Season 8 and so far Season 9. Yikes.

[devlin]

3 hours ago, hypnotoad said:

OMG -so much this! I barely got through season 8 but will say season 9 is better (though that is kind of faint praise if I am being honest). However, this whole conflict is just dumb. First with Dean's whole revisit of his allegedly being poison (come on) and now this whole Sam blah blahing about wanting to die and how he wouldn't have done the same thing if the roles were reversed. I may not be the Supernatural super fan some are but even I know that's pure nonsense. Wasn't Sam running all over the place trying to figure out how to get save Dean from the cross roads deal? In Mystery Spot didn't Sam try to save Dean over and over again?!? I hate this fake conflict stuff from the writers. Hate.

I'm not saying Sam didn't have a right to be upset about an angel taking over his meat suit without his permission. After everything with Lucifer I can understand him not being thrilled at the idea. But to say he wouldn't save Dean if Dean was dying and all the rest? Shut up Sam (and I don't like saying that because I am a Sam fan).

The writers have really run Sam over in Season 8 and so far Season 9. Yikes.

And the sad thing is that the writers aren’t trying throw sam under the bus but rather they think that it’s just sam telling dean the hard truths that dean needed to hear

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, devlin said:

And the sad thing is that the writers aren’t trying throw sam under the bus but rather they think that it’s just sam telling dean the hard truths that dean needed to hear

I disagree. I'd say more but I don't want to go to get into "Bitch vs Jerk" territory.

Edited December 3, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[The Companion]

We went from meh in the previous episode to outright hate on this one. 

Obviously the poorly written angst was terrible. Poorly written, inconsistent and ridiculous. I think it has been more than covered here but I will say that this feels like a showrunner problem to me. The lack of continuity in the characterization of Sam and Dean. The unclear or inconsistent motives. The reason this feels like melodrama instead of having some real depth is primarily because there is a clear failure to have a coherent character motivation. There are dribs and drabs of what could have been an interesting story. Something about whether it is more important to consider potential consequences (like Kevin's death) or it is more important to save the person Dean loves. Something about Dean's commitment to save Sam at all costs and Sam's guilt over the things that have happened. This could have been a slow burnout from Sam starting with the loss of his brother (in purgatory), a mental breakdown where he was barely hanging on by a thread, a coping mechanism of embracing a quick fix by finding a girlfriend, throwing himself into a new purpose to save the world and then feeling like there is nothing left for him when that goal is taken away. On the Dean side, we can see a man desperate to hold on to whatever he can. Someone who really needs to believe that he is doing good in the world, and whose worldview was shaken when people they saved began being murdered (another reason Cassie would have worked better for the ex who was killed). Instead, we get consent muddled with the end of the trials. We get the brothers talking at each other and making ridiculous declarations. We get this entire garbage "not brothers storyline" that only shows up in the beginning and the end (in the middle they are laughing and messing with each other). The heart to hearts at the beginning and end just did not go with the tone of the rest of the episode (an old problem) but also they didn't go with the prior episodes either or with the prior characterization.

But the rest of the episode was no prize. There is a way to do a monster (or alien in the case of Doctor Who) who removes fat without resorting to the cheapest of ploys and fat shaming. Yet the writers picked all the low hanging fruit. HAHA, look at this fatty. He is in eating competitions and he eats hot dogs even after he was in an eating competition. TWIST, someone actually wanted to bang him. But don't worry cause we are just fetishizing fat. He isn't a good person or anything. His personality is "a little cushion." His competition is thin and a competitive eater. How? Oh, he eats lettuce. Look at this woman. So fat. Close up on her weight. Did you get that she is 180? What a cow! Can we get another close up? Gotta make sure you know so that we can have Dean make a joke about women lying about their weight and age. SO HILARIOUS THAT WOMEN FEEL LIKE THEY HAVE TO BE YOUNGER AND THINNER TO DESERVE LOVE. Check out this Sheriff. She must be a porker because she eats doughnuts. I mean holy shit, the story she told should have had a much bigger impact because the biggest monster in this show was definitely her ex. Fuck that guy. Of course she loved shakes more than him. She should have loved root canals more than  him. Sure, they had Dean throw some acknowledgment of how fucked up the story was she just told, but it would have been nice to take a beat to say that dude should be next in line for allllllll the monsters of the show. 

Then there is the continued confusion on what to do when monsters aren't murdering people. This show cannot figure out where it wants to land, so you end up with nonsensical solutions like: take away her nonharmful food source in a location where we can confirm nothing else happens and send her on her way to another country where she may or may not get all murdery again when she gets hungry. I don't think it has ever occurred to them that there are almost certainly monsters out there like the werewolves and this pishtako (sp?) who aren't doing harm. Literally, the only way they know about a monster is if he/she/it does harm. So, logically, they have no idea if there are monsters out there who aren't doing harm. They would never interact with them unless one of them slips.

Anyway, this episode was not may favorite. Can you tell?

[Nick24]

On 8/21/2018 at 12:59 PM, BabySpinach said:

I still can't believe how far they threw Sam's character down the toilet in season 9. He could have been mad about Gadreel like a regular person and struggled to get past it without dunking his brother's life purpose and self esteem into the garbage, then waffling non-stop about how he WANTED TO DIEEEEE (even though we were shown that he clearly didn't). First Born 10.11 seemed to set him on a more sympathetic course, but I guess Robbie Thompson hadn't gotten the memo to make Sam as cartoonishly dickish and nonsensically petty as possible. 

Personally, I don't see that way. IMO that speech was in Sam's character. After Fallen Idols, Defending Your Life and the whole S8 this was clear to me. 

As for First Born, imo Sam looked better because he was not interacting with Dean there. But Sam did say: 

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SAM: And then... Dean made a choice for me.

So once again Sam refused to take responsibility for his own decisions and were blaming Dean.

Actually, the fact that Sam was so nice to Castiel in 9.11 and then so cruel to Dean in the following episodes made me dislike Sam much more. 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Nick24