Ask A BookWalker: Questions From The Unspoiled

[InsertWordHere]

On an unrelated note could someone list the POV characters for me ? So if I ever read the books (I probably will when the series finished but not before) I know which chapters are boring and can be skipped without losing much of story.

That might be a tricky thing to do. Some of the more boring POVs might have awesome, not boring characters show up in them or tell us information we won't learn elsewhere. It's one of my favorite things about ASoIaF.Below is a list of all the POV characters who have appeared in the show so far. I won't list the others because they might still appear on the show. There are also a few one-off POVs that I haven't listed.

 

Ned, Catelyn, Jon, Bran, Sansa, Arya, Brienne, Tyrion, Jaime, Cersei, Theon, Yara (although her book name is different), Dany, Barristan, Davos, Sam, Areo Hotah (Doran's guard, I'm not sure if the show named him), and Melisandre. 

Edited June 26, 2015 by InsertWordHere

[Lady S.]

Consensual sex...

LF and Lysa! Heh.

 

LF was so drunk the night of their first time that the Blackfish had to carry him to bed. Then Lysa, who apparently resembled Cat more when they were girls, later wakes him by sneaking into his room, probably in poor lighting. He definitely is aware he slept with Lysa at Riverrun, but I just assume they did it on more than one occasion. But the story leaves room that he believes it was Catelyn who took his v-card and that he did genuinely believe he had deflowered both sisters, as he once claims to Tyrion.

 

Lol I don't even know who R& L are supposed to be so that was completely unintentional of me.

 

 

As to raping... Did the Dothraki rape the women in the Sheep Village in the books ? I'm just kind of assuming that Drogo's pre Dany life featured raids on other villages which would include killing the men and raping the women. Hence why the purchase of the Unsullied as the only non raping army in the world came up...

 

On an unrelated note could someone list the POV characters for me ? So if I ever read the books (I probably will when the series finished but not before) I know which chapters are boring and can be skipped without losing much of story.

R&L would be Rhaegar and Lyanna, there's an age difference there even if she chose to run off with him, since she was 14/15 and he was in his 20s. But IA with you that it's not the age difference that makes Dany/Drogo rapey. I mean, she was losing the will to live, so I don't think it was just about saddle sores making the sex painful.

 

Yes, the Dothraki do rape the Lamb Women in the book and Drogo treats Dany's saving of them as some silly pregnancy whim that he's going along with to humor her, because their son is prophesied to be an even greater warlord. Drogo's speech in the previous ep about killing Westerosi men, raping their women, and enslaving their children to win the Iron Throne for his son is also straight from the book.

 

On the PoVs, skipping them really only works for Dany and Davos, everyone else appears in someone else's PoV at least once. 

[wayne67]

R&L would be Rhaegar and Lyanna, there's an age difference there even if she chose to run off with him, since she was 14/15 and he was in his 20s. But IA with you that it's not the age difference that makes Dany/Drogo rapey. I mean, she was losing the will to live, so I don't think it was just about saddle sores making the sex painful.

 

Yes, the Dothraki do rape the Lamb Women in the book and Drogo treats Dany's saving of them as some silly pregnancy whim that he's going along with to humor her, because their son is prophesied to be an even greater warlord. Drogo's speech in the previous ep about killing Westerosi men, raping their women, and enslaving their children to win the Iron Throne for his son is also straight from the book.

 

On the PoVs, skipping them really only works for Dany and Davos, everyone else appears in someone else's PoV at least once. 

 

I was thinking of skipping and or skimming the chapters featuring Sansa, Arya, Bran and Catelyn heavily. I might skip Rob, Jon Snow and Theon's POV chapters if I find them as tedious in the books as I did on the show.

 

I figure even if you entirely ignore consent issues in Dany and Drogo's early sex life, it's highly probable that as the Dothraki Warlord who leads an army of warriors of men who butcher men and rape women he probably partook in rapine and plunder before he assumed leadership. Since the Dothraki value strength I assume Drogo gained the leadership by killing lots of men including the previous Khal and raping a lot of women. I just find it curious that the fandom ignores that probability and casts him in such favourable light. Maybe it's because he died fairly early in the series and Dany got attached to him...

 

Still think it's a fairly low bar to "ROMANCE" but whatevers :P lol YMMV and what not

 

I've read Princess and the Queen or Green and Blacks by George R R Martin which may or may not be considered a prequel novella or maybe a rough draft of Game of Thrones.... My question is for those who've read both the GOT series and this short novella is if the writing is comparable ?

 

For those who haven't read this it's like 88 pages of dragon on dragon warfare. It's kind of intense but has lots of characters and towns mentioned and might be interesting for those who want more dragons... That said I found the ending kind of unsatisfying which makes me wonder about the ending of the GOT saga.

Edited June 27, 2015 by wayne67

[Lady S.]

I've read Princess and the Queen or Green and Blacks by George R R Martin which may or may not be considered a prequel novella or maybe a rough draft of Game of Thrones.... My question is for those who've read both the GOT series and this short novella is if the writing is comparable ?

 

For those who haven't read this it's like 88 pages of dragon on dragon warfare. It's kind of intense but has lots of characters and towns mentioned and might be interesting for those who want more dragons... That said I found the ending kind of unsatisfying which makes me wonder about the ending of the GOT saga.

I've read it too, there's also another story called The Rogue Prince about Rhaenyra's uncle/husband Daemon, which leads up to the point where the Princess and the Queen starts. If you want the Dance of the Dragons ending and aftermath, you can check the Targ section of the World Book. But no, I wouldn't really say any of that is that indicative of the main series, since it's dry history and the premise is that GRRM is writing with a maester's voice. I mean, the main series is not great literature, but as fantasy I find a lot of it pretty engrossing. I grew up on Harry Potter, so I kinda feel like it's a similar, but much more adult experience. If you're interested in novellas while waiting for the show to end before trying the main series though, I'd recommend the Dunk & Egg series. It's about the adventures two characters incidental to the main series, Maester Aemon's little brother Egg and his boyhood pal Ser Duncan the Tall. There's a compilation of the three novellas written about them so far that's due to be released in October, and graphic novels of the first two stories are also out. They're much lighter fare than the main series and should assure people that Evil Santa isn't really a true nihilist.

 

Back to the PoVs, if you skip all the Starks you're only left with Tyrion and Dany in Book 1. Those two, along with Bran, Cat, Ned, Jon, Arya and Sansa are the only original PoVs. Theon goes from background to PoV in Book 2 and Davos is added, then Jaime goes from background to PoV in Book 3, and Cersei, Brienne and Theon's sister do the same in Book 4. Mel has one such chapter in Book 5, and another character has two or three such, but naming him would be a books vs. tv spoiler and I'm not sure you want that. 

Edited June 27, 2015 by Lady S.

[Brn2bwild]

I was thinking of skipping and or skimming the chapters featuring Sansa, Arya, Bran and Catelyn heavily. I might skip Rob, Jon Snow and Theon's POV chapters if I find them as tedious in the books as I did on the show.

 

IMO, Arya and Bran POVs can drag for long periods of time, but Sansa's are actually pretty compelling, as she has a direct view of what is happening in King's Landing.  Plus, a lot of things that happen to her are more dramatic in the books, such as her first period.  Catelyn can be frustrating, but her POVs are interesting, too.  I found Jon chapters tedious until A Storm of Swords/A Dance With Dragons, but Theon's chapters are good, and his Reek chapters in A Dance With Dragons are riveting.

Edited June 27, 2015 by Brn2bwild

[wayne67]

I've read it too, there's also another story called The Rogue Prince about Rhaenyra's uncle/husband Daemon, which leads up to the point where the Princess and the Queen starts. If you want the Dance of the Dragons ending and aftermath, you can check the Targ section of the World Book. But no, I wouldn't really say any of that is that indicative of the main series, since it's dry history and the premise is that GRRM is writing with a maester's voice. I mean, the main series is not great literature, but as fantasy I find a lot of it pretty engrossing. I grew up on Harry Potter, so I kinda feel like it's a similar, but much more adult experience. If you're interested in novellas while waiting for the show to end before trying the main series though, I'd recommend the Dunk & Egg series. It's about the adventures two characters incidental to the main series, Maester Aemon's little brother Egg and his boyhood pal Ser Duncan the Tall. There's a compilation of the three novellas written about them so far that's due to be released in October, and graphic novels of the first two stories are also out. They're much lighter fare than the main series and should assure people that Evil Santa isn't really a true nihilist.

 

Back to the PoVs, if you skip all the Starks you're only left with Tyrion and Dany in Book 1. Those two, along with Bran, Cat, Ned, Jon, Arya and Sansa are the only original PoVs. Theon goes from background to PoV in Book 2 and Davos is added, then Jaime goes from background to PoV in Book 3, and Cersei, Brienne and Theon's sister do the same in Book 4. Mel has one such chapter in Book 5, and another character has two or three such, but naming him would be a books vs. tv spoiler and I'm not sure you want that. 

 

I'd probably enjoy an all Dany & Tyrion book... I'm not a big fan of the Starks, I don't really get their appeal as the only thing I find interesting about them is their direwolves and not enough to wade through pages of them and their talk about honor and revenge. Reminds me too much of a Zuko monologue. At this rate it'll be another 7-15 years before the book series is finished and I might be dead before then so I'm not too worried either way.

 

IMO, Arya and Bran POVs can drag for long periods of time, but Sansa's are actually pretty compelling, as she has a direct view of what is happening in King's Landing.  Plus, a lot of things that happen to her are more dramatic in the books, such as her first period.  Catelyn can be frustrating, but her POVs are interesting, too.  I found Jon chapters tedious until A Storm of Swords/A Dance With Dragons, but Theon's chapters are good, and his Reek chapters in A Dance With Dragons are riveting.

 

I LOL'd at Sansa's period being dramatic. I'm guessing that she has to hide it from Cersei so she doesn't have to suffer the attentions of the men folk. I'm still wondering if Bran will be important in the show or not or in the books. Would be funny if Bran overtakes Dany and Jon in the chosen one games and saves Westeros from internal and external conflicts with human warging. Force them all to get along.

 

A question for those who have read the books. When did you start reading the books and how long have you been waiting for the conclusion of this series ?

Edited June 27, 2015 by wayne67

[Avaleigh]

I've read it too, there's also another story called The Rogue Prince about Rhaenyra's uncle/husband Daemon, which leads up to the point where the Princess and the Queen starts. If you want the Dance of the Dragons ending and aftermath, you can check the Targ section of the World Book. But no, I wouldn't really say any of that is that indicative of the main series, since it's dry history and the premise is that GRRM is writing with a maester's voice. I mean, the main series is not great literature, but as fantasy I find a lot of it pretty engrossing. I grew up on Harry Potter, so I kinda feel like it's a similar, but much more adult experience. If you're interested in novellas while waiting for the show to end before trying the main series though, I'd recommend the Dunk & Egg series. It's about the adventures two characters incidental to the main series, Maester Aemon's little brother Egg and his boyhood pal Ser Duncan the Tall. There's a compilation of the three novellas written about them so far that's due to be released in October, and graphic novels of the first two stories are also out. They're much lighter fare than the main series and should assure people that Evil Santa isn't really a true nihilist.

 

Back to the PoVs, if you skip all the Starks you're only left with Tyrion and Dany in Book 1. Those two, along with Bran, Cat, Ned, Jon, Arya and Sansa are the only original PoVs. Theon goes from background to PoV in Book 2 and Davos is added, then Jaime goes from background to PoV in Book 3, and Cersei, Brienne and Theon's sister do the same in Book 4. Mel has one such chapter in Book 5, and another character has two or three such, but naming him would be a books vs. tv spoiler and I'm not sure you want that. 

Hold the phone--

So there's an entire little story about Daemon that I haven't read yet? Well, I know what I'm doing tomorrow morning. How did I not know this? Maybe I just forgot. He was cold and kind of monstrous but I thought he was probably the most compelling character in the story.

I actually still haven't read the D&E books yet. Maybe I'll do it in celebration of us finally getting a release date whenever that happens..

[Brn2bwild]

I LOL'd at Sansa's period being dramatic. I'm guessing that she has to hide it from Cersei so she doesn't have to suffer the attentions of the men folk. I'm still wondering if Bran will be important in the show or not or in the books. Would be funny if Bran overtakes Dany and Jon in the chosen one games and saves Westeros from internal and external conflicts with human warging. Force them all to get along.

 

A question for those who have read the books. When did you start reading the books and how long have you been waiting for the conclusion of this series ?

I forgot what happened on the show, but in the book, she tried to burn her mattress so no one would discover the blood.

 

I started reading the books after the second episode of Season One and finished reading all of them in the summer of 2011.

[Lady S.]

Hold the phone--

So there's an entire little story about Daemon that I haven't read yet? Well, I know what I'm doing tomorrow morning. How did I not know this? Maybe I just forgot. He was cold and kind of monstrous but I thought he was probably the most compelling character in the story.

I actually still haven't read the D&E books yet. Maybe I'll do it in celebration of us finally getting a release date whenever that happens..

Yes, it's in a collection called Rogues, which I may or may not have illegally obtained as an e-book rather than pay money for a collection where I only wanted the one story. I liked it better than the P&Q because the focus on one character made it feel more coherent, and he was a compelling monster, but ymmv. I believe the story there is that Martin wrote too much Targ junk for the World Book and just decided to use some of it for story collections he'd already committed to.

 

Maybe you can just buy the D&E collection in October and dive into that if you finish your main re-read before Winds is released, which I fear is a real possibility.

 

 

A question for those who have read the books. When did you start reading the books and how long have you been waiting for the conclusion of this series ?

Personally, I broke in the hiatus after s2, when Book 5 was still relatively newly released. (I had a bookreader friend who couldn't remember that I wasn't, so I was already spoiled for things like the Red Wedding and Theon's Reekification.) So I've only really experienced the wait for Book 6, which is why I've soaked up all of Martin's prequel novellas and most of the big World Book, so the wait hasn't been too bad in that sense, but I do feel for the OGs here who experienced the long waits for Books 4&5 and are now stuck in the same for Book 6.

 

Oh, last thing about the D&E tales is that they're told from Ser Duncan's PoV, so they're not quite the same as other supplementary material where the premise is that maesters are writing it. Though Dunk is a bit dim, fair warning, so it's kinda like if Ned Stark and Brienne of Tarth mixed together, but idk what your feelings on Brienne are. 

[MadMouse]

I actually still haven't read the D&E books yet. Maybe I'll do it in celebration of us finally getting a release date whenever that happens..

You really should read Dunk and Egg, some of the events that happen in the novellas are going to place a huge role in the upcoming novels. And really they're just fun to read with a completely different tone than the main series. Plus you get to meet Tywin's grandmother and baby Walder Frey.

 

 

A question for those who have read the books. When did you start reading the books and how long have you been waiting for the conclusion of this series ?

 

I read the first book in November 1998 after I completely wrecked my knee in a football game. I was layed up in the hospital and my mother bought me a copy in the gift store. I never was a huge fantasy fan but it completed hooked me from the prologue. So I've been waiting for the series to finish for 16 years.

[SFoster21]

Asha Greyjoy and Qarl the Maid, Sam and Gilly, Jaime and Cersei

Jon and redhead.

[wayne67]

I read the first book in November 1998 after I completely wrecked my knee in a football game. I was layed up in the hospital and my mother bought me a copy in the gift store. I never was a huge fantasy fan but it completed hooked me from the prologue. So I've been waiting for the series to finish for 16 years.

 

Ouch. What's it like waiting 16 years for a book series to finish ? Do you find that you're more interested in fantasy now ?

[MadMouse]

Ouch. What's it like waiting 16 years for a book series to finish ? Do you find that you're more interested in fantasy now ?

 

Its not a big deal, I love the world he created but in the grand scheme of things its low priority. As much as I love the books I like talking about the characters and insane theories almost as much. It feeds my inner nerd. 

 

Still not a big fan of fantasy in general but I'm more willing to give them a shot than I was before. Couldn't get into Tolkien but I loved the one Witcher book I read. 

Edited June 29, 2015 by MadMouse

[penelope79]

Can I ask something that, for me, was never 100% clear? Is Dany still fertile?

 

Watching the show, but I really can't remember if it's been officially said, I had the impression that she could no longer have children after what happened with that witch and Khal Drogo when she was pregnant. I even thought that the dragons were the only "children" she could ever have.

 

However, I read speculations about her future children and, in any case, it only makes sense that she will have them one day, specially if she will successfully sit on the Iron Throne.

 

Can someone explain?

[AshleyN]

Can I ask something that, for me, was never 100% clear? Is Dany still fertile?

 

Watching the show, but I really can't remember if it's been officially said, I had the impression that she could no longer have children after what happened with that witch and Khal Drogo when she was pregnant. I even thought that the dragons were the only "children" she could ever have.

 

However, I read speculations about her future children and, in any case, it only makes sense that she will have them one day, specially if she will successfully sit on the Iron Throne.

 

Can someone explain?

That's one of those things that book fans can't agree on either. What is clear is that Dany believes she can't have children, but there's debate as to whether or not she's right about that. In particular, there's an event (which was cut from the show) that happens late in Book 5 which many interpreted as her having a miscarriage.

Edited July 3, 2015 by AshleyN

[penelope79]

Thank you very much, AshleyN!

Edited July 4, 2015 by penelope79

[John Potts]

 

 

penelope79

Can I ask something that, for me, was never 100% clear? Is Dany still fertile?

 

 

As AshleyN says, that's unclear. But there is a prophecy (by

Miri Maz Dur perhaps?) that says something along the lines of "When the rivers

run dry and when the mountain shakes like a leaf, your womb shall quicken

again." Now since I'm aware of MANY prophecies that go "X can't occur until

these two impossible conditions are met" that inevitably result in exactly that

happening (Burnam Wood actually coming to Dunsinanne, for example, causing

Macbeth's undoing), I strongly suspect she will have a child eventually.

[plurie]

As AshleyN says, that's unclear. But there is a prophecy (by

Miri Maz Dur perhaps?) that says something along the lines of "When the rivers

run dry and when the mountain shakes like a leaf, your womb shall quicken

again." Now since I'm aware of MANY prophecies that go "X can't occur until

these two impossible conditions are met" that inevitably result in exactly that

happening (Burnam Wood actually coming to Dunsinanne, for example, causing

Macbeth's undoing), I strongly suspect she will have a child eventually.

Close, but

The prophecy includes "when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east" which has been fulfilled by the death by dragon of the Dornish prince. And the other bits can be said to have been fulfilled as well. The seas running dry could refer to the Dothraki sea, etc. It was also not a prophecy about Dany's fertility so much as when Drogo would be returned to her, and it included the bit about her having a child.

[morgankobi]

I have a question about a character who is not (yet, maybe) on the show, but shows up in spec a lot:

Lady Stoneheart. Is she "mostly" the same as Cat? Would she recognize Arya or Sansa if she saw them again, or is she mostly someone else in Cat's body?

[SeanC]

I have a question about a character who is not (yet, maybe) on the show, but shows up in spec a lot:

Lady Stoneheart. Is she "mostly" the same as Cat? Would she recognize Arya or Sansa if she saw them again, or is she mostly someone else in Cat's body?

Lady Stoneheart has, as far as we know, all of Catelyn's memories. It's just her personality that is different.

[Lady S.]

I have a question about a character who is not (yet, maybe) on the show, but shows up in spec a lot:

Lady Stoneheart. Is she "mostly" the same as Cat? Would she recognize Arya or Sansa if she saw them again, or is she mostly someone else in Cat's body?

Well, yes and no. She's kind of like Beric in that he lost some of himself every time he was killed and brought back, but her corpse had been lying completely unattended in the river for days by the time the brotherhood found her, and in her last moments she had lost all reason for living anyway so she's pretty much all about just getting revenge. Oh, and her throat was slit so she can't really speak intelligibly anymore, her whole thing is "she don't speak, but she remembers". I'm sure she'd know her kids if she ran into them again but she wouldn't really be their mother anymore or know how to be even if something was sparked by seeing one of them again, because the good parts of her really do seem to be dead dead. JMO, but I feel it wasn't so much the Cat known for most of the series that was resurrected so much as what she reduced to in her last agonizing moments at the Red Wedding. (The book version of that scene is even worse btw, where there's a little bit more time between her becoming a murderer and being murdered herself, and she's losing it to the point of scratching her own face up and thinking about Ned in the present tense as if he's right there with her.)

[morgankobi]

I have a question about an item that was used at the Kingsmoot in the book:

Spoiler

Someone speculated that the horn might be used in front of Dany later since it wasn't used at the Kingsmoot. What does it do and how was it used in the book?

Thank you so much to those who answer in this thread!

Edited May 23, 2016 by morgankobi
Fixed spelling of Kingsmoot

[Unknown poster]

24 minutes ago, morgankobi said:

I have a question about an item that was used at the King's Moot in the book:

  Hide contents

Someone speculated that the horn might be used in front of Dany later since it wasn't used at the King's Moot. What does it do and how was it used in the book?

Thank you so much to those who answer in this 

Spoiler

Euron claims the Horn can bind dragons to the will of whomever owns it. There is a Red Priest who believes the same. However, the member of Euron ' s Crew who blew the horn at the Kingsmoot died shortly thereafter, his insides having been burned from the act. So it's assumed that the horns owner, and the blower must be seperate people.

 

[Avocado]

Hi book readers! Questions for you:

Did Hodor's death happen the same way in the books, and if so, was there more of an explanation as to how responsible Bran was for "turning" him into Hodor? Is it acknowledged that Bran basically went into the past and turned a normal boy into a lifelong idiot (for lack of a better word?

Also, do we ever find out what Ned heard/saw in the tower in Bran's flashback visit?

[Mya Stone]

7 minutes ago, Willow said:

Hi book readers! Questions for you:

Did Hodor's death happen the same way in the books, and if so, was there more of an explanation as to how responsible Bran was for "turning" him into Hodor? Is it acknowledged that Bran basically went into the past and turned a normal boy into a lifelong idiot (for lack of a better word?

Also, do we ever find out what Ned heard/saw in the tower in Bran's flashback visit?

 

Bran's story has only gone so far as his spending time in the cave, and all of his cohorts are still there with him. He has just started accessing the "tree net" to the past and present, but has not seen the Tower of Joy, or young Hodor yet.

 

However, it was confirmed that the author shared Hodor's story on how he got his name, and the show runners ran with it - I honestly could tell that it came from GRRM, as it reeks (hehe) of his work.

 

As far as Ned and what's in the tower...I'll just say that Ned's inner monologue in the first book doesn't leave much doubt as to what is in there. I believe we'll touch on that again this season. ;) 

[Alayne Stone]

Hey!

Like Mya Stone said, Hodor's death has not happened in the book yet, but the creators confirmed that some form of it will occur in an upcoming book based on what GRRM said. From the way it sounds, "Hodor" does derive from "Hold the Door" but GRRM said the context would be very different. My guess is that Bran and co. will not actually be attacked at the cave by the Others because as it is going in the books so far it seems like Bran is going to be stuck under that tree for a very long time and some of us even believe he will never even leave the cave, period.

As for what is in that tower ... the only thing we know for certain is that the Tower of Joy is where Lyanna Stark dies. After defeating the members of the Kingsguard outside the tower, he finds his sister in a "bed of blood." The implications for what that means is possibly one of the biggest revelations of the series involving a certain bastard with uncertain parentage that most people who read the book series generally prescribe to.

Hope that helps. :)

[Avocado]

Thanks so much for your replies! 

[Isazouzi]

Hey Bookwalkers!

Do we know in the books how Jaquen, he of the superpowers, was taken prisoner when Arya meets him? Knowing what we know about him now, I find it strange that mere soldiers could have put him in a cage...

[Maximum Taco]

3 hours ago, Isazouzi said:

Hey Bookwalkers!

Do we know in the books how Jaquen, he of the superpowers, was taken prisoner when Arya meets him? Knowing what we know about him now, I find it strange that mere soldiers could have put him in a cage...

Spoiler

No we don't. In the books we don't meet Jaqen until after Arya has set off North with Yoren on route to the Wall. All we know is he's a Lorathi that did something that was bad enough to get him confined to the Black Cells under the Red Keep, a place reserved for only the worst criminals (or to make a point in the case of highborn prisoners.) And the other two criminals that were in the Black Cells with him are terrified of him. All three are given to the Night's Watch at the request of Lord Commander Mormont, and things play out largely the same as in the show up to the point he leaves Arya, and then Jaqen has his story continue in a different way then it does in the show.

There are some interesting theories though: In the books, the Faceless Men seem to be able to take faces a lot more easily (they can just kill a guy and take his face pretty much on the spot.) So some people think that the original Real Jaqen was not a Faceless Man at all and was a real criminal who was taken to the Black Cells, then when he was let out cause he was being given to the Night's Watch, a Faceless Man killed the Real Jaqen and took his face. And that's why the other prisoners are so scared of him. Some even go a step further and say the Faceless Man who killed the Real Jaqen was Syrio, and he took Jaqen's face so he could keep an eye on Arya for a while. I don't really buy it, but it's a fun theory right?

Edited May 31, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[Haleth]

7 hours ago, Isazouzi said:

Hey Bookwalkers!

Do we know in the books how Jaquen, he of the superpowers, was taken prisoner when Arya meets him? Knowing what we know about him now, I find it strange that mere soldiers could have put him in a cage...

Isazouzi, this may be more information than you want, so look with that in mind:

Spoiler

In the book it isn't Jaqen that trains Arya in the House of B&W.  He's a completely different character not found on the show.  

[GrailKing]

On 5/28/2016 at 5:27 PM, Alayne Stone said:

Hey!

Like Mya Stone said, Hodor's death has not happened in the book yet, but the creators confirmed that some form of it will occur in an upcoming book based on what GRRM said. From the way it sounds, "Hodor" does derive from "Hold the Door" but GRRM said the context would be very different. My guess is that Bran and co. will not actually be attacked at the cave by the Others because as it is going in the books so far it seems like Bran is going to be stuck under that tree for a very long time and some of us even believe he will never even leave the cave, period.

As for what is in that tower ... the only thing we know for certain is that the Tower of Joy is where Lyanna Stark dies. After defeating the members of the Kingsguard outside the tower, he finds his sister in a "bed of blood." The implications for what that means is possibly one of the biggest revelations of the series involving a certain bastard with uncertain parentage that most people who read the book series generally prescribe to.

Hope that helps. :)

And some of us don't believe that is so, Bran being so young, and there is a Weirwood in Winterfell where he can attach to until his last days fulfilling there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.  :>)

[Lady S.]

9 hours ago, Isazouzi said:

Hey Bookwalkers!

Do we know in the books how Jaquen, he of the superpowers, was taken prisoner when Arya meets him? Knowing what we know about him now, I find it strange that mere soldiers could have put him in a cage...

Spoiler

Personally, I think the Faceless Men's mystery is a symptom of Martin's writing style, having only the broadstrokes in mind and fleshing out the details as he goes along. He had a cool idea for Arya's book 2 mentor and probably always intended for her to go to Braavos later, but I'm not sure he really had the Faceless Men ideology all that thought out when Jaqen was introduced. I think it's an entirely possible there wasn't a planned backstory for why Jaqen was in the cage, or even if there was it's unlikely to be revealed. I think there are probably a lot of smaller mysteries like that that will never be thoroughly answered while bigger questions like Jon's parentage will be resolved. (Bigger in the sense that Jon is a PoV and Jaqen is more minor character.)

[morgankobi]

This isn't so much of a spoilery question, but doesn't really belong in the episode threads: Before Robert's Rebellion, how long had the Targs been on the throne?

[GrailKing]

28 minutes ago, morgankobi said:

This isn't so much of a spoilery question, but doesn't really belong in the episode threads: Before Robert's Rebellion, how long had the Targs been on the throne?

About 300 Years

Edited June 3, 2016 by GrailKing

[Bill1978]

Spoiler

 

So some people in the Book Thread and Spoilers and Speculation are suggesting that perhaps the Arya that got stabbed isn't Arya. And might be Jaquen or somebody else. I will admit out of everything in this show, the concept of the Faceless Men confuses me the most. I can understand dragons, white walkers, coming back from the dead, old ladies looking young but the FM confuse the hell out of me. Could someone explain them to me so it makes some sort of realistic sense.

In order to Arya, wouldn't that mean Arya is actually dead cause isn't that how they get the face? And what about differences in heights?

 

Edited June 7, 2016 by SilverStormm
Please spoiler tag your questions if they are spoilery in nature. Thank you

[Maximum Taco]

8 hours ago, Bill1978 said:

  Hide contents

 

So some people in the Book Thread and Spoilers and Speculation are suggesting that perhaps the Arya that got stabbed isn't Arya. And might be Jaquen or somebody else. I will admit out of everything in this show, the concept of the Faceless Men confuses me the most. I can understand dragons, white walkers, coming back from the dead, old ladies looking young but the FM confuse the hell out of me. Could someone explain them to me so it makes some sort of realistic sense.

In order to Arya, wouldn't that mean Arya is actually dead cause isn't that how they get the face? And what about differences in heights?

 

Spoiler

 

In the books the Faceless Men are half a religious order and half an assassin's guild.

They worship the Many Faced God, who they see as all gods, and is a god of death and they give his 'gift of death' to those who seek it, or give the gift to others if someone else pays for it. This gift is supposed to be painless (or as close to painless as possible) their preferred method is poison.

For the right price the Faceless Men promise to kill anyone in the world. The Faceless Men never charge more then is beyond a person's ability to pay. Therefore if the poorest man in the world wants the most powerful King dead the Faceless Men would charge a price that the poor man is able to pay. This price could be money, or possessions that the man currently owns, or it could be all the income he will ever make in his entire life or it could also be something like the man's own life, or his wife or child's lives, or it could be something more abstract like a promise made or a deed done by the man. The assassinations the Faceless Men carry out are specific and targeted, they try their best to make all assassinations look like accidents, and they also are very careful to kill only their target with no collateral deaths.

The Faceless Men are able to change their appearances by using a type of blood magic. Their own blood and the removed faces of the dead are used to assume a person's appearance. While a Faceless Man can change his appearance, it seems like there are limits to this transformation, no Faceless Man has been shown to be able to drastically change their mass or dimensions. So while the Waif can appear as a similarly sized old woman, she could not, for instance, take on the guise of the Mountain (even if she had his face), it's simply adding too much mass. Similarly there is no way Jaqen could appear as Arya, as it is taking away too much mass and height.

If the show is working by the books Faceless Man rules the Arya that was stabbed can only be Arya, since all the guises the Faceless Men take on are dead people who have had their faces cut off. Even if Arya was dead and the Faceless Men had her face the only ones who could assume her identity would be similarly sized individuals.

 

Edited June 7, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[CofCinci]

If Tommen dies -- who is next is succession?

[placate]

2 hours ago, CofCinci said:

If Tommen dies -- who is next is succession?

According to reddit, it would be Dany because Robert and Rhagar were cousins.  https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/46lzzp/s5_just_realized_i_have_no_idea_who_is_next_in/?sort=confidence

[Maximum Taco]

7 hours ago, CofCinci said:

If Tommen dies -- who is next is succession?

Spoiler

In the books it would be Myrcella (cause she's still alive) then Stannis (also still alive) and then Shireen (also still alive)

Then it would be Daenerys, as she is the only remaining scion of Aegon V (the Unlikely)

Then it might be Doran Martell (ALSO STILL ALIVE), many of the Martells are descended from Daenerys Targaryen (daughter of Aegon IV), who was said to have many children with her husband Prince Maron Martell, so Doran is quite possibly her scion, if he could trace his descent from her and Prince Maron, he could claim the throne. Doran also has two living children in the books, so the Princess Arianne would come after him and the Prince Trystane (say it with me: ALSO. STILL. ALIVE.) after her.

After that it gets a lot more murky. There are records of female members of House Targaryen marrying and having children with members of House Plumm, House Penrose, and House Hightower, but it's unclear if any living members of those Houses can be traced linearly back to House Targaryen which would be necessary to put in a claim. 

But if Tommen dies I'm sure Cersei would just drop all the pretense and crown herself Queen. And if she dies, it'll just be a free for all, first one to King's Landing with an army takes the throne.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[Hecate7]

On 6/7/2016 at 10:16 AM, Maximum Taco said:

  Hide contents

 

In the books the Faceless Men are half a religious order and half an assassin's guild.

They worship the Many Faced God, who they see as all gods, and is a god of death and they give his 'gift of death' to those who seek it, or give the gift to others if someone else pays for it. This gift is supposed to be painless (or as close to painless as possible) their preferred method is poison.

For the right price the Faceless Men promise to kill anyone in the world. The Faceless Men never charge more then is beyond a person's ability to pay. Therefore if the poorest man in the world wants the most powerful King dead the Faceless Men would charge a price that the poor man is able to pay. This price could be money, or possessions that the man currently owns, or it could be all the income he will ever make in his entire life or it could also be something like the man's own life, or his wife or child's lives, or it could be something more abstract like a promise made or a deed done by the man. The assassinations the Faceless Men carry out are specific and targeted, they try their best to make all assassinations look like accidents, and they also are very careful to kill only their target with no collateral deaths.

The Faceless Men are able to change their appearances by using a type of blood magic. Their own blood and the removed faces of the dead are used to assume a person's appearance. While a Faceless Man can change his appearance, it seems like there are limits to this transformation, no Faceless Man has been shown to be able to drastically change their mass or dimensions. So while the Waif can appear as a similarly sized old woman, she could not, for instance, take on the guise of the Mountain (even if she had his face), it's simply adding too much mass. Similarly there is no way Jaqen could appear as Arya, as it is taking away too much mass and height.

If the show is working by the books Faceless Man rules the Arya that was stabbed can only be Arya, since all the guises the Faceless Men take on are dead people who have had their faces cut off. Even if Arya was dead and the Faceless Men had her face the only ones who could assume her identity would be similarly sized individuals.

 

Arya is said to look exactly like her deceased aunt.

[paigow]

If the Faceless Men are so good, why didn't Robert outsource the contract on Dany to them? 

[Maximum Taco]

9 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

Arya is said to look exactly like her deceased aunt.

Are you implying that the Faceless Men have Lyanna Stark's face for their use? That doesn't seem possible, we're told that she rests in the crypts of Winterfell. I suppose they could have snuck in and stolen her face, but that doesn't seem to be of any benefit to them. The Faceless Men choose their alternate identities for anonymity, not to trick people into thinking they are specific people.

Spoiler

Secondly only Ned ever says Arya looks like Lyanna (and I don't think he ever says "exactly like"), and he's probably referring to Lyanna when she was young, not Lyanna when she died. You can bet Robert would've brought it up if Arya looked EXACTLY like her at the time of her death. Remember that (at least in the books) Lyanna died at an age older then Arya currently is, so even if the Faceless Men had her face and Arya is her twin in appearance, anyone wearing Lyanna's face would look like an older Arya, not an exact duplicate.

 

56 minutes ago, paigow said:

If the Faceless Men are so good, why didn't Robert outsource the contract on Dany to them? 

 

Spoiler

In A Game of Thrones, Grand Maester Pycelle suggests sending the Faceless Men after her. Littlefinger responds that with the price (meaning the price in gold) the Faceless Men normally charge to assassinate a common merchant you could hire an entire army of sellswords. To kill a princess and one of the last Targaryen scions the price the Faceless Men would charge would be ridiculously high. He does remark later to Ned that if they did send a Faceless Man after her she'd be as good as buried. But he convinces the council to merely offer a pardon (for Jorah) or a Lordship (for anyone else) if they kill Dany, because "Lordship's are cheap."

Edited June 11, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[Bill1978]

How long was Lyanna Stark kidnapped for and was she always hanging out in the Tower of Joy since the kidnapping?

[Minneapple]

A couple years, maybe? She was kidnapped by or ran away with Rhaegar (we don't know which) not long after the tournament at Harrenhal. And she probably was at the Tower of Joy the whole time, since Brandon Stark went to King's Landing to get her back but she wasn't there. 

Edited June 17, 2016 by Minneapple

[Bill1978]

Thank you. I know it really isn't possible

Spoiler

if Lyanna is the mother of Jon

but for some reason I always get the feeling that she was just gone for a couple of months

[Hecate7]

15 hours ago, Bill1978 said:

How long was Lyanna Stark kidnapped for and was she always hanging out in the Tower of Joy since the kidnapping?

She was imprisoned there for two years.

[Hecate7]

On 6/11/2016 at 10:43 AM, Maximum Taco said:

Are you implying that the Faceless Men have Lyanna Stark's face for their use? That doesn't seem possible, we're told that she rests in the crypts of Winterfell. I suppose they could have snuck in and stolen her face, but that doesn't seem to be of any benefit to them. The Faceless Men choose their alternate identities for anonymity, not to trick people into thinking they are specific people.

  Reveal hidden contents

Secondly only Ned ever says Arya looks like Lyanna (and I don't think he ever says "exactly like"), and he's probably referring to Lyanna when she was young, not Lyanna when she died. You can bet Robert would've brought it up if Arya looked EXACTLY like her at the time of her death. Remember that (at least in the books) Lyanna died at an age older then Arya currently is, so even if the Faceless Men had her face and Arya is her twin in appearance, anyone wearing Lyanna's face would look like an older Arya, not an exact duplicate.

 

 

  Hide contents

In A Game of Thrones, Grand Maester Pycelle suggests sending the Faceless Men after her. Littlefinger responds that with the price (meaning the price in gold) the Faceless Men normally charge to assassinate a common merchant you could hire an entire army of sellswords. To kill a princess and one of the last Targaryen scions the price the Faceless Men would charge would be ridiculously high. He does remark later to Ned that if they did send a Faceless Man after her she'd be as good as buried. But he convinces the council to merely offer a pardon (for Jorah) or a Lordship (for anyone else) if they kill Dany, because "Lordship's are cheap."

Littlefinger convinced Robert it would be too expensive, and that there were better ways of doing it. Nevertheless a FM does seem to have come for Dany in the guise of a little girl, and failed.

As for how the FM could have Lyanna's face, we don't know what really happened after she died, only that she's supposedly buried in the family crypts. Ned doesn't reflect on her burial or her funeral. The Starks didn't worship the Seven til Catelyn came, so there were no stones on her eyes, no public viewing. She may simply have been interred in the crypt in her closed casket and then meditated on in the Godswood. We don't even know how the followers of the Old Religion bury their dead.

We also don't know what the real reasons for using the faces are. Some of the faces might be quite famous. Certainly if one wished to assassinate Rhaegar or Ned, Lyanna's face would be a very useful one. A familiar or friendly face, or a famous one, might have its uses under certain circumstances, so I'm not ruling it out. The FM say that they themselves are "no one," but Jaquen H'gar and the Waif were somebodies once. They never said that their disguises are No One. Only that they reject and subsume their identities to better take on those disguises. I doubt that being famous or not a part of the brotherhood, or very recognizeable, means your face would never be added to the wall.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Hecate7

[Maximum Taco]

1 hour ago, Hecate7 said:

Littlefinger convinced Robert it would be too expensive, and that there were better ways of doing it. Nevertheless a FM does seem to have come for Dany in the guise of a little girl, and failed.

As for how the FM could have Lyanna's face, we don't know what really happened after she died, only that she's supposedly buried in the family crypts. Ned doesn't reflect on her burial or her funeral. The Starks didn't worship the Seven til Catelyn came, so there were no stones on her eyes, no public viewing. She may simply have been interred in the crypt in her closed casket and then meditated on in the Godswood. We don't even know how the old religion does its funerals.

When did that happen? I don't remember that. Do you mean the manticore assassination? That wasn't a Faceless Man, it was a warlock (the girl has a blue mouth from Shade of the Evening)

In regards to Lyanna, that seems like a lot of baseless speculation. There's no reason to believe she had her face cut off. You're just saying that "It could happen," which is impossible to dispute, I could say half the book characters could be Faceless Men and it'd be impossible to dispute.

There's more reason to believe the Faceless Men would have no interest in Lyanna because no known Faceless Men have masqueraded as well known individuals. They choose their identities to blend in and fade away. Masquerading as a high born lady would draw too much unwanted attention.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[AshleyN]

41 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

Littlefinger convinced Robert it would be too expensive, and that there were better ways of doing it. Nevertheless a FM does seem to have come for Dany in the guise of a little girl, and failed.

I thought it was a Sorrowful Man that came for Dany?

Edited June 17, 2016 by AshleyN

[Maximum Taco]

21 minutes ago, AshleyN said:

I thought it was a Sorrowful Man that came for Dany?

A Sorrowful Man does come after her, but it's in the guise of a merchant, and he tries to kill her with a live manticore.

An assassin also tries to kill her with poisoned wine, but it's not really specified whether this is an assassin from a guild, or just some guy looking to cash in.

I don't remember any other assassination attempts on Dany.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Maximum Taco