S05.E03: Episode Three

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Robert is left furious when things don't go as planned. Mary's undercover assignment is nearly blown. Violet is quick to save the day. The events surrounding Green's death are under scrutiny. Mrs Patmore is left devastated when old wounds are opened. Branson receives a proposition regarding the future of the Downton estate.

[ZulaMay]

Well, aside from the Cora/Bricker/Robert drama and perhaps the Edith stuff, this episode was really slow IMO.  The least engaging so far.

 

We have yet another Bates murder mystery gobbling up screen time with people sitting at a table and talking purely for exposition.  Cora STILL has not made up her mind about Baxter so we have to hear her give another deadly serious mea culpa.  The Tony/Mary "scandal" was rather anticlimactic (sorry).

 

Bunting is still there and suddenly Tom tells Mary he might be interested? Since when?  We haven't even seen them have a conversation: she just mouths off and he has to defend her or do damage control.  And he still hasn't decided about America?  It's been two years, Tom.  Fish or cut bait because I love you to death and even I am out of patience with you.  And find someone decent to date, for God's sake.  How hard can it be?

 

The Tom/Mary talk was nice but please God don't let them try to make that more than brother/sister.  Just, NO.  I know some people want it but I don't know why.  Think back to him with Sybil, what they were willing to do for each other, how affectionate and warm they were.  That's the kind of relationship he needs.  Not with Ice Queen Mary.  She's good for Charles Blake, not for Tom.

 

Not surprise she is bored with Tony.  I am too.  He seems pathetic. 

 

Mrs. Drewe overreacted when she found Edith and the baby were not in the house.  I mean, the first assumption should be they're in the yard or out for a walk.....not that Edith KIDNAPPED her.  I don't blame her for being suspicious and such but that was too much.

 

The Russians were sort of fun but we didn't see much of them.  Watching Violet get the vapors was amusing, I guess.  

 

Anyway, I was disappointed with this one.  I guess Mary has made some progress in her decision making but somehow it still wasn't interesting to watch.

 

But I did like Cora and Bricker together, Robert being butthurt and insulting and Cora giving him a piece of her mind.  I do not know how she tolerates him most of the time.  Also interesting to hear her father was Jewish, as I always suspected.  I wonder why they never made mention of it earlier?  I mean, she obviously wasn't raised Jewish but you'd think Violet would have had something to say about it at some point.

[panthergirl13]

I agree with Chattygal... I really liked this episode best this season so far. I love the idea of Mary being all 'meh' about Tony after sleeping with him.  

 

I don't think anyone is shipping Mary and Tom, least of all the show itself. I think the point of that exchange is that she does love him like family and doesn't want to lose him.

 

Re Mrs. Drewe...she's been getting the creeps from Edith for awhile now, so she may have had misgivings about leaving the baby with her to begin with, hence the panic when she got home and they weren't there. 

 

So all in all, I thought it was a good one and was disappointed when it was over. 

[CofCinci]

I'm so bloody tired by Bates and his murderous subplots. Poor Anna is going to get beaten by Bates because Lady Mary likes cock.

[Dust Bunny]

I enjoyed this. With the exception of the Bates' ridiculousness, it was less dreary than other episodes. I finally feel like I've seen a more independent side of Cora. It was nice to hear about her past that wasn't tied to Robert. Her evening out with Bricker seems like it reminded even her that she's a person beyond Robert's wife.

 

Carson irritates me more each episode. I used to find him charming; now he's just an ass. I think it stems from bitterness that his world is falling apart, and he thinks he's the only one lamenting it (which he is). 

 

Bunting will be out of the picture soon enough. She's a plot device to force Tom to make a decision. An annoying plot device.

 

I'm curious to find out what Thomas' call was really about. 

 

Maggie Smith is wonderful. She could take the driest of exposition and turn it into the most beautiful of scenes. In fact, she doesn't even need to say a word. She does so much with her presence in the room.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Dust Bunny

[Lokiberry]

I wonder if this is the exit plan for Bates, he finally gets caught (abusing Anna, or worse) and we'rie done with him at last

 

We're not that lucky. He'll find the "thing", and assume Anna's using it because she doesnt want to have his spawn, and then, manpain until he gets arrested for murder again, and then she'll have to stand by his side, suffering, like the good wife. Blech.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Lokiberry

[Camera One]

I enjoyed this episode as well.  As Chattygal said, there was more energy and momentum in the various subplots, and a few new elements to keep it interesting.

 

I'm just glad the Bates/Greene mystery is progressing.  Slow is fine, as long as there is movement, and now there has been.  It does allow some interesting interactions with Mrs. Hughes/Anna/Mary.  Speaking of which, Mrs Hughes and Anna will probably be the first to figure out Edith's secret as well.

 

I understand why Mrs. Drewe overreacted, but they need to show her actually caring about the little girl to make me feel badly for her.  At this point, it looks more like jealousy.  I don't know what she said to Mr. Drewe to make him tell Edith not go come.  This plotline, as much as I hated it before, does give Edith something to work with.  It was heartbreaking to see her face in the scene when Mary and Tom's children came in.

 

I like Baxter and enjoyed her scenes with Mosely and Cora, and now this story seems to be done which is good.

 

I figured Mary would still be bored with Gillingham, though I still feel he has more chemistry with Mary than Blake, as an actor but not with the personality traits provided to his character.  He gave a semi-weird look after talking to Isabel which suggests he might have ulterior motives.

 

Why didn't Mary just throw out the birth control and the book?  I am not looking forward to Bates finding it.

 

And then there were a couple of new developments, with Thomas' new venture and Cora wanting to be more useful.  I'm not a fan of that creepy art lover, but I did like they gave her something to do.

 

The Russian part was amusing with Violet, which made it worthwhile despite how unbelievable it was.

 

There were just some really good scenes between various characters in this episode, and a pretty good balance for everyone (even giving Mrs. Patmore something to do).  I'm surprised I enjoyed two episodes in a row, and I hope that streak continues.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Camera One

[Avaleigh]

The moment I saw Violet's old boyfriend I couldn't help but think Boris the Blade aka Boris the Bullet Dodger!

 

I think this was the best episode so far of the season. I'm still not into the plot with Bates and the Edith story is beginning to wear on my nerves*, but apart from those things I really enjoyed the rest.

 

I thought there were a lot of nice small moments. I liked seeing Rose attending to the details of making sure the guests would feel warmly welcomed. She seems like she has the makings of a great society hostess. I also liked the subplot with Mrs Patmore and I liked the acknowledgment that Mrs Hughes is Carson's favorite. I like that Daisy is keeping up with her studies and that she seems like she could be turned on to reading and continuing her informal education. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Sarah recommends or even gives Daisy some books to get her started. Loved the conversation with Tom and Mary but am crossing my fingers that he doesn't go to America. 

 

I laughed out loud over Violet's comment about wanting her servants to only be human beings on their days off. What made it funny to me was that she puts this little smile on her face after she says it as though that's going to sweeten what is a pretty awful comment to make; it's like she wants it to almost seem like a joke but not really and of course Isobel and the audience know that she is indeed perfectly serious. 

 

Seriously. First of all, I was yelling at the screen because how bloody stupid is Mary to not realize that asking her married maid to hide her contraception is risky in general - and how incredibly stupid is it to do that knowing that Bates has an anger problem, to put it nicely? Really Mary, it would be worse for Edith to find out you're screwing around than for Anna's bad-tempered, insecure husband to think she's cheating on him? Okay.

 

 

Mary doesn't know when the hell to quit. In all seriousness even if I did have the nerve to ask someone to hide something that I know would be potentially embarrassing/upsetting/conflict causing or whatever else if found and the person went on to tell me that they felt that they were being used as an accomplice to sin--there's no way that I'd feel comfortable continuing to insist that they should be able to handle it and help me. I'd figure something else out. It's frustrating that Mary doesn't seem to care about Anna's feelings about this nor does she pause for a second to think about the fact that the situation could become awkward or even dangerous for Anna if Bates were to accidentally find it. 

 

I feel like Mr Drewe needs to tell Edith that she has to be okay with filling his wife in on the fact that she's Marigold's mother and then they can all figure out what to do from there. It's getting too ridiculous and Edith has to see why Mrs D is feeling put out and confused. I too thought the woman overreacted when she didn't see them right away but I can still understand why she's starting to wonder whether or not something could be developing romantically with her husband and this Lady of the county who'd never paid the slightest attention to them or any of their other children until recently. Edith doesn't seem like she's really tried to put herself in Mrs Drewe's shoes and I wish she'd think about that and try to approach the situation in a different way rather than expecting the woman to accommodate all of her expectations without a good enough reason.

 

Spratt is so awful he makes Carson seem like a prince in comparison. The actor does a great job with his minimal screen time. I've only ever seen him in one other film, Gosford Park, and his character there was totally different. I enjoyed the scene with Violet and was amused that he tried to follow up to see whether or not he was actually going to catch his mistress in a lie. 

 

I thought the conversation between Isobel and Gillingham was strange. On the one hand he seemed like he was trying to be nice but it came across as phony, premature, and unnecessary. It was also obvious that she was uncomfortable but he kept trying to engage her in conversation so I understood why IIRC she just sort of walked away. He's odd. He seems like he's often trying to be apart of things and while he's ultimately welcome he isn't exactly encouraged, so it leaves me wondering why he continues to try so hard.  

 

Looking forward to meeting the much talked about MLF. 

 

*ETA

It's not so much that I find the story uninteresting, I just find parts of it frustrating in a way that's not especially entertaining. Honestly, I rolled my eyes when Edith told Mrs Drewe that she'd come over anyway and that Mrs D could turn her away if she wanted. Really? There was no good outcome for that sort of suggestion IMO. Then she doesn't even wait for Mrs D to reply, she just talks past the lady to Marigold and leaves a few seconds later. 

Edited October 6, 2014 by Avaleigh

[DeepRunner]

I haven't seen the episode, and have to settle for spoilers until DA airs Over Here, but a couple of observations:

 

* I don't get the depth of the Bates hate. I understand he is pretty well loathed among a preponderance of the citizens of Downtonia; I just find its intensity fascinating. If there is an issue with the character, then look to the character's creator. (FWIW, it really is lazy to do another Bates-is-a-murderer-or-is-he? kind of story. I have been watching s1 again, which was Downton at its best. All the characters, even Mary, Bates, and Thomas and O'Brien, the black-hats, were well-drawn; now each is a cliche of a parody of a caricature, and <sigh> O'Brien has been gone for a while now. The show has not improved much, if at all, with age. I will still watch it when it airs, just sayin'...)

 

* From what I've seen so far, the storyline of Simon and Cora seems intriguing. Will Cora do with Simon what Robert would not do with Jane Moorsum? And if so, will Robert find out? Sex seems to be in the air at the Abbey.

[Pogojoco]

Uh Mary? WHO CARES IF MRS. HUGHES KNOWS YOU HAVE A DIAPHRAGM?! The two of you are conspiring about covering up a murder. I think she can keep a secret. Hiding it in the cottage is basically the worst place to hide it. Leaving it on Edith's dressing table would be a less bad idea. 

 

I like to imagine that Tony was a dud bash and Mary decided it just wasn't worth the hassle. I like the looks of the previews of Blake with another woman. Mary should have to compete at some point in her life. 

 

Another episode, another opportunity for Edith to get kicked. That poor girl. I wish Pig Man would just tell Mrs. Pig Man the deal. 

 

Robert is a fool, but I sort of enjoy it when he is.  As for Bates- instead of all this murder stuff (again), I'd love it if he was just the dude that did all of Robert's illegal/shady dirty work. Not murder, but more forgery or something. 

 

Also, I say it every week but she doesn't seem to listen- SHUT UP, BUNTING.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Pogojoco

[foreverevolving]

I keep trying to quit this show but I keep coming back.

 

- I dislike mary. may even hate her. that's it, there's being a bitch and than theres being the spawn of the devil. If i knew Mary in real life she would have received a punch in the face by now.

 

- I continue to root for Edith. if this show was fair she would end up being the sole owner of Downtown.

 

- I don't dislike buntin (is that her name?). i like that she speaks her mind, she is part of a new and growing movement. although i did find the way she spoke with the russian guy a bit distasteful, but she had a point; the russian monarchy lost their crown (and life) because they were too blind to the changing times around them and because of them. just as Robert and Violet are too, as well as Carson. but unlike the russians they seem to slowly, though very reluctantly adapting, at least partially.

 

- so does this mean that Violet have a suitor? oh please let it be real!!

 

- Cora at least partially jewish (if her mom isn't technically she isn't either), mmmm. it will be interesting to see her reaction to what is going to happen in Germany and Europe in the 30's and what will be reveled in the 40's- Although downtown may be canceled by then, i don't think they'll do such a big time jump, but one can only hope.

I was yelling at my screen asking Cora to please punch Robert (but she is far more ladylike than i am), he deserves it. he shows up unannounced and then throws a tantrum she wasn't there for him to whisk her to dinner?!

I liked the chemistry she had with The Great Intelligence.. oh sorry i mean Brick. he seemed utterly charmed by her.

 

- Fellows has my permission to kill off Bates, both of them. by now i have zero sympathy for Anna, although maybe without he-Bates she'll become likable again.

 

- I adore Molesley and i hope he and what's her name will be happy together. I think they are good for each other.

 

- I'm so happy that we are getting some of the old Tom back.

 

- and of course, Daisy. can i just say how awesome it is to see Daisy finally blossoming. Those classes are doing wonders to her self. i have a feeling Carson is going to like it less and less as her thirst for knowledge will increase.

Edited October 6, 2014 by foreverevolving

[Camera One]

It's not so much that I find the story uninteresting, I just find parts of it frustrating in a way that's not especially entertaining. Honestly, I rolled my eyes when Edith told Mrs Drewe that she'd come over anyway and that Mrs D could turn her away if she wanted. Really? There was no good outcome for that sort of suggestion IMO. Then she doesn't even wait for Mrs D to reply, she just talks past the lady to Marigold and leaves a few seconds later.

 

They are making Edith quite oblivious to the situation.  It's pushing it that she has no clue that Mrs. Drewe is cold to her and how the whole situation might look to her.  I am trying to explain it away with Edith having her blinders on with that little girl.  It really seems like her daughter is all she is living for at this point.  Is she still managing the newspaper and writing articles?  

 

Cora at least partially jewish (if her mom isn't technically she isn't either), mmmm. it will be interesting to see her reaction to what is going to happen in Germany and Europe in the 30's and what will be reveled in the 40's- Although downtown may be canceled by then, i don't think they'll do such a big time jump, but one can only hope.

 

That would be interesting.  

 

Will Cora do with Simon what Robert would not do with Jane Moorsum?

 

From this episode, I doubt it.  Cora was clueless about Simon's true feelings/intentions.

[SilverShadow]

 

From this episode, I doubt it.  Cora was clueless about Simon's true feelings/intentions.

 

I got the opposite impression. When he asked if they could do something like this again Cora said she didn't think so but (IMO rather gently to soften the blow) that she took his asking as a compliment. She also had that great reaction last week where Robert accused Simon of "flirting with Isis" and she was all "Riiiight....Isis."

[Camera One]

Interesting perspective.  That's a good point, she might have known.  I thought maybe if that were the case, she would have seemed/looked more guilty to Robert.  Or maybe she did know but to her, it was solely platonic so she saw no problem with it.  Regardless, I really do not want an affair storyline... I don't think she was leading him on.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Camera One

[Badger]

Does anyone else think the "witness" is going to turn out to be someone from Bates's prison past, like maybe his cellmate?  

[ZulaMay]

Mary asking Anna to hide the book and "thing" in her house was the hugest, most gaping plot hole ever.  It makes Mary seem incredibly selfish and oblivious, for one.  It was bad enough that she asked Anna to buy it but now she's making her conspire to hide it....in HER home!  Even though Anna is making no secret of her discomfort with the whole situation!  I'm gobsmacked by it.

 

But the fact is it just seems like a plot device so Bates can find it.  Duh.  Because sure, right, it's more safely hidden in their tiny cottage than in Mary's 30-bedroom house.  Like, Mary can't get a box with a lock or a dresser drawer or SOMETHING to which she and only she has the key.  The whole thing is distasteful and transparently stupid.

 

I think Edith is also oblivious about Mrs. Drewe but not in an awful way...just in an "obsessed with her child" way.  And Mrs. Drewe does come across as jealous of both her husband and the kid.  I don't blame her but that's what really happening here:  she feels her boundaries are being crossed.  

 

Of course he can't just tell his wife the truth because we have to have this drama!!!

 

Oh, and also Carson?  Ugh.  He gets worse all the time.  He's so snide with everyone, so huffy and scowling all the time.  Robert is a total ass but at least he's kind  of amusingly stupid.  Carson is just a PILL.

Edited October 6, 2014 by ZulaMay

[Eolivet]

to those who called Gillingham having ulterior, and possibly dark, motives in regards to Mary, I think you were onto something. However, at least the prospect of Bates being caught gives this viewer something to look forward to, and I liked Mary immediately realizing how dull Tony is once getting to know him. His showing up uninvited to Downton definitely reinforced the pushy, creepy vibe that his character has had since the beginning and it's time Mary took notice of and was turned off by it.

 

 

Gillingham has ulterior motives in regard to Mary like the stereotypical freshman nerd has ulterior motives for the gorgeous, popular senior cheerleader. He's desperate and clingy, but nothing more. He's as jumpy as a debutante at her (his) first ball. There is no malice in this man -- he's head over heels for Mary, and she's just not that into him. There is no chance, in my opinion, that he's remotely evil after this episode. Seriously, Isis called and said "Dude. Have some respect for yourself."

 

It's clear the triangle has shifted to Mary, Blake and Mabel Lane Fox -- and either Mary will use him to make herself look better when she sees Blake and Mabel have paired off, or she'll be swatting his nose with the rolled up newspaper to stop him from humping her leg for the rest of the season.

[ZoloftBlob]

But the fact is it just seems like a plot device so Bates can find it.  Duh.  Because sure, right, it's more safely hidden in their tiny cottage than in Mary's 30-bedroom house.

 

Seriously, didn't the evil grandmother in the Flowers in the Attic book series hide four live kids in a house that was actually smaller than Highclere Castle?

 

Psst Mary - just hide your diaphragm in Matthew's room.

[NumberCruncher]

It's clear the triangle has shifted to Mary, Blake and Mabel Lane Fox -- and either Mary will use him to make herself look better when she sees Blake and Mabel have paired off, or she'll be swatting his nose with the rolled up newspaper to stop him from humping her leg for the rest of the season.

BWAH! You owe me a new keyboard.

ITA about Gillingham not being threatening. For a brief moment last week I thought they might take him in an evil, moustache-twirling direction, but now I'm back to thinking him the cute, but completely daft and overeager puppy he's been since he first arrived at Downton.

 

But the fact is it just seems like a plot device so Bates can find it.  Duh.  Because sure, right, it's more safely hidden in their tiny cottage than in Mary's 30-bedroom house.  Like, Mary can't get a box with a lock or a dresser drawer or SOMETHING to which she and only she has the key.  The whole thing is distasteful and transparently stupid.[/b]

Yes, that whole setup is overwhelmingly contrived. Very bad form, Fellowes.

 

Regarding the Edith situation, she knows that her involvement with Marigold is irritating Mrs. Drewe since she admitted it to Mr. Drewe. What I have a hard time understanding is why she isn't taking the hint. Yes, she is Marigold's mother, but if the whole point is to keep her secret under wrap but still manage to be involved in the child's life, the absolute worst thing to do is to further piss off the adoptive mother. I sympathize with Edith's predicament but she needs to be smarter than this.

Other general thoughts: I honestly think Fellowes doesn't know what to do with Anna and Bates at this point. Another murder mystery? Really? I don't think I can survive another prison storyline because the first one made me want to spork out my eyeballs.

Can we please have more/better storylines for Mrs. Patmore? Again, why are we recycling old storylines (i.e. her cowardly nephew)?

Spratt is not only a snob, but also a major snitch. Carson has nothing on this man.

Raquel Cassidy has really impressed me this season in her portrayal of Baxter. There's at least one storyline that's somewhat unique--I would never have guessed her walk on the wild side was due to a seduction by an unseemly man.

Robert continues to be a complete ass...what else is new? I also don't think that Cora is the least bit blind to Bricker's intentions--she just wasn't willing to take it further. Although, who could really blame her if she did?

Edited October 6, 2014 by NumberCruncher

[NumberCruncher]

These bozos aren't sure where their Gutenberg Bible is, have been somewhat oblivious to the value of a della Francesca hanging in their home, failed to notice for two years a book belonging to Michael Gregson sitting on a shelf, and apparently kept a stash of Fabergé eggs and other artifacts of Tsarist Russia stuffed in the attic... but Mary can't think of a single place to hide a book and a diaphragm without someone finding it.

My question is why does she even feel the need to keep it anymore since it's pretty obvious she has no further intention of dancing in the sheets with Gillingham. Logic goes out the window when there's heavy-handed plot to be had with the Bateses.

Aren't some contracts up at the end of this series? I felt after tonight's episode that Bates was headed for an exit - either death or prison for good. The converging storylines of the resuscitated Greene inquiry and Anna stashing Mary's sexual goodies seem to be looking like a no way out for Bates. Perhaps it is wishful thinking, though it seems like these two different plots put that character in a vise that will at long last reveal his truly dark side.

That might not be a bad thing (i.e. letting Bates's dark side emerge) since he's always been the saintliest of martyrs to ever grace our TV screens. It would at least give us something different.

Edited October 6, 2014 by NumberCruncher

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Uh Mary? WHO CARES IF MRS. HUGHES KNOWS YOU HAVE A DIAPHRAGM?! The two of you are conspiring about covering up a murder. I think she can keep a secret.

Seriously. It's ridiculous that Mary thinks birth control is a bigger secret than sexing a guy to death.

I loved Tom and Mary's honest and supportive conversation. It was very sweet to see. But I want them to stay friends. They can continue to be honest and supportive of each other without becoming romantically involved.

So does Gillingham seem like the kind of guy who will tell everyone he banged an earl's daughter if she decides not to marry him?

Robert can STFU (I should just copy and paste that into every episode thread). How dare his wife not be sitting around waiting for him to surprise her while she is out of town?

[Llywela]

Why didn't Mary just throw out the birth control and the book? 

Probably because disposing of rubbish was not as simple or easy to conceal in 1924 as it is today - it would fall into the hands of a servant less trusted than Anna and tongues would start to wag below stairs. Finding a safe place to lock it up would have been the better option by far!

 

Where did she even get the book, if she doesn't want to be seen with such things?

 

I enjoyed this episode. I enjoyed watching Daisy blossom, gaining confidence as she learns that she has never been stupid, she just lacked education. I enjoyed watching Cora blossom - and smacking Robert down for his angry attempt at puncturing her self-worth. I enjoyed watching Violet do all things Violet - and I enjoyed Isobel getting her own back for all the teasing. I've come to really enjoy Baxter and Molesley, loved his little pep talk, giving her the confidence she needed to confess to Cora. Coming from a family with an adopted sibling, I had every sympathy for Mrs Drew - and feel that her affection for Marigold has been well established. A lot of her discomfort with Edith is jealousy, yes, but in the main it is the jealousy of a mother who has another woman - a woman she feels inferior to and cannot easily say no to - interfering in the raising of her child.

 

My favourite scene, though, was Mary and Tom having a late night drink and chat. I love how close they have become, that Mary was able to talk openly to him about her extra-curricular antics with Tony without fear of judgement, that he'd already figured the whole thing out for himself, that she sympathised with his mixed feelings over what direction to take in the future but freely admitted that she doesn't want to lose him, that he was confident enough in her friendship to say 'if you love me you'll support me' and she immediately agreed. Of all the Crawleys, Mary is the one who has accepted Tom as family most readily and completely - they've come such a long way since she hurried to stop Sybil eloping with him!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I loved that Tom had already figured out Mary's "sketching" excursion and was totally non-judgmental about it. I know he's a younger generation than Violet, but it was still nice to see him be upfront with her and let her know that he didn't care if she was off having trial sex with her possible future fiance. I like that they are comfortable enough to talk about things like that. I mean, Mary wouldn't have that conversation with Edith or anyone else. She only told Anna because she needed her to go fetch birth control for her.

[Camera One]

The only problem I had with that was, if Tom figured it out, then so would everyone else.  I did like their conversation, though.  

[Avaleigh]

Carson irritates me more each episode. I used to find him charming; now he's just an ass. I think it stems from bitterness that his world is falling apart, and he thinks he's the only one lamenting it (which he is).

I agree that Carson is becoming bitter but disagree that he's the only one who seems to be lamenting the loss of their old world. Obviously Robert and Violet are the main ones looking forward to the past but I get that sense from Mrs Patmore and Molesley too. O'Brien was another one back when she was there. There were those crying Russians. 

 

So does Gillingham seem like the kind of guy who will tell everyone he banged an earl's daughter if she decides not to marry him?

I'm on the fence about this but lean towards him ultimately not going there because JF (as much as he likes to recycle storylines) likely doesn't want this to happen to Mary again. Also, while Mary would bear the brunt of any scandal, there are still people who would think he'd behaved badly and would hold it against him and I think that would keep him from telling the world. He strikes me as the kind of person who cares what his mother and family would think. Plus his lack of discretion wouldn't necessarily be helpful for him if he thinks he may be looking to have affairs with married/divorced/widowed society women in the future.

 

That's what makes Edith's constant droopy-drawers demeanor around George and Sibby SNL skit-caliber ridiculous. We know that the servants noticed she'd gained weight before her trip to Switzerland - surely the family (at the very least, bitchy Mary) noticed as well - yet no one puts together weight gain + lengthy trip abroad + return home skinny again but now constantly moping around small children = HAD A BABY. So poor Laura Carmichael is left to a character whose only purpose now is to look sad (and in case you weren't sure about what to feel, the orchestral swell of somber strings cues the viewer in).

 

 

I think Mrs Hughes and Anna both have it in the back of their heads it just isn't something they feel like discussing or getting into since the don't have any new info. They exchanged a look when they saw the baby picture and they both had the same thought but decided to move on because whatever the situation is I'm guessing they think it's probably better for them not to get involved. Actually, Mrs Hughes has to know because she also overheard the conversation on the night of the fire. 

She's a smart woman but this probably isn't something that she feels like she should talk about with anyone unless the situation changes in some way and she's compelled to for whatever reason. 

[NotBothered]

The only problem I had with that was, if Tom figured it out, then so would everyone else.  I did like their conversation, though.  

Have you met Robert?  I think the rest of the family wouldn't even imagine that the truth was possible.  

 

I still feel like there's some chance that Tony ends up being sketchy.  His showing up at Downton just seemed really sketchy.

 

I am so bored with Bates.  He's become completely one note and we're repeating a plot line we're already lived through.  

[Eolivet]

I seriously feel like Gillingham is more likely to burst into tears and beg Mary not to break up with him than he is to have any kind of nefarious motives towards her. I honestly think his comments to Isobel were supposed to be a veiled reference to Matthew (i.e., "You're not supposed to be nice to the man who's going to take your son's place") rather than anything untoward.

 

And I think he showed up at Downton because Mary saying they'd get engaged at some point maybe is the equivalent of asking him if he wants to go outside, and this is him yipping at her heels. "When are we gonna get married? Huh? Huh? Huh? Squirrel!"

Edited October 6, 2014 by Eolivet

[ElectricBoogaloo]

The only problem I had with that was, if Tom figured it out, then so would everyone else.

I think the reason that no one else suspected what Mary had been up to is the same reason no one has figured out that Edith had a kid who is now living down the street: while the clues add up when you think about it, there is no reason for the Crawleys to add up said clues. They take each other at their word (if Mary says she wants to go sketching, that seems perfectly legitimate, as does Rosamund's invitation to take Edith around Europe). It's not that they are incapable of guile but they don't assume that Mary and Edith are constantly lying about things. In addition, sneaking around to have sex and have secret babies is not something that Cora and Robert would ever expect from their daughters. I think it's similar to the witness who came forward about Green's death - if you make one assumption (Green's death was an accident, Mary wants to take a weeklong trip with her friend, Edith was traveling with her aunt), then the information you have seems trivial but if you make another assumption (Green was murdered, Mary was having sex, Edith got knocked up), suddenly the harmless information seems more pertinent and makes more sense.

[kpw801]

I don't hate Bates but I find his character unbelievable.  I started getting tired of his story when Thomas and O'Brien for the umpteenth time tried to have him framed for stealing and put Daisy up to lying about it.  It was good just for a tiny moment to see Thomas and O'Brien foiled but then he had to go into this I have to tell you that until a very short time ago I was in prison for theft and I was a drunkard.  (cue the dramatic organ music of a soap opera!).  I was sick of it then.  Plus when they got the letter from O'Brien's lady's maid friend which confirmed what he confessed to, he refused to tell them the fact that he confessed to cover for his thieving wife!  it would have made sense if he was still in love with the woman, but he was pretty much courting Anna so it didn't make sense.  I remember one scene when Robert asked him point blank to explain why they were lenient with his sentence (because Robert was thinking if they really thought it was him, the punishment would have been more severe.)  He puts on this stupid face and says, "I cannot speak of it my lord".    Hate this Green story line and I also think we are being set up.  It occurred to me that Anna may have killed Green on impulse.  That is why she is so worried they will find out about the rape.  She was in London and everyone knows it.  I think she did it and Bates is a red herring.  We will have a trial I bet and Anna will get off by the skin of her teeth but I bet that is where this is going.

 

On Edith.  I too understand Mrs. Drew's panic.  If one didn't know the situation with Edith, she would look like some kind of mental case.  When she is there with the child she is practically drooling all over her.  She hovers.  It looks really odd.  Now, if I were Mrs. Drew, I don't think I would be worried about Edith and my husband because she doesn't pay any attention to anyone but that little girl when she is there but it looks really unhealthy.  I might wonder however if there had been something going on.  Villagers talk and I bet that other wife had some stories to tell about the time Lady Edith came to drive the tractor and she caught her husband kissing her.  It is going to blow up in her face because she won't be able to hold it in.  I remember at the Christmas special she talked about envying the way people from other cultures just blew off steam unlike the stiff upper lip British folk.  She won't be able to stay away.

 

Mary and Gillingham.  I am so glad she is tired of him.  He must not have been good in bed.  That was going to be the breaking point.  He has no life.  He wants to know how to get into the perfect orbit around her daily routine.  How boring.  You could tell she was tired of him.  He probably never let her out of his sight.  I would have hated that situation.  The rooms are adjoining and she probably felt more like a prisoner than a lover.  Then she thinks "whew!" the trip is over and I'm finally back in my own world and surprise surprise!  Look who just pops up!  She is going to have to dump him fast!  I hope he doesn't throw the trip up in her face but if so, she brought it on herself!

 

Anna should throw the device away and say she was afraid Bates would find it.  I wouldn't keep it at all.  But of course I am not on Downton Abbey where there is no such thing as common sense.

 

Cora and Baxter.  All during the first season Cora kept making snide remarks about Bates, being a silver thief who couldn't even walk.  Now she has a jewel thief and she keeps it under her hat when she rode Robert like a bat out of hell about getting rid of Bates.  Strange writing.  I wish somehow it could be made known what O'Brien did to Lady Grantham too.

[ZulaMay]

I don't think Mary is the only one who has really accepted Tom as family.  We see more of them together just as we see more of Mary with everyone....she gets more screen time. Now, Robert clearly hasn't really accepted him as family but given how oblivious he is to his own family,  it hardly matters. He treats Tom about as well as he treats Edith.  And Cora...well, we saw how he was with her in 5.03.

 

Anyway, I do think Edith thinks of him as family too.  She was very supportive of him when Sybil died, as Mary was.  We saw their rapport in the CS as well.  He is tuned into her enough to recognize she is distracted (which again, is more than her own family can manage to do).  I can understand Cora and Robert not suspecting Mary going on a Sex Week but Edith?  The circumstances could not have BEEN more suspicious (to quote Chandler Bing).  And Mrs. Hughes knew before Anna found the picture, IMO.  She didn't seem surprised.  Last season when Ivy asked why Edith looked so tired after "going away for nine months" Mrs. Hughes said "Oh, I don't know"....but she totally knew.  She just kept it to herself.

 

You guys have been cracking me up with your comments about Gillingham.  He's a Stage 5 Clinger, isn't he? Although I can't blame him for thinking the deal is sealed, because Mary made it seem like she just wanted a bit of time before making it "official."  She told him she loved him in 5.01 (in her "cold unfeeling way"), but that she wanted to be sure.  She spent a week with him to "be sure."  That she accepted the invite at all would have been very encouraging sign, of course.  And let's face it, the sex was probably good for HIM so he assumes it was good for her too.  She probably enjoyed it well enough....it was his tedious company she couldn't bear.

[Llywela]

Mary and Gillingham.  I am so glad she is tired of him.  He must not have been good in bed.  That was going to be the breaking point.  He has no life.  He wants to know how to get into the perfect orbit around her daily routine.  How boring.  You could tell she was tired of him.  He probably never let her out of his sight.  I would have hated that situation.  The rooms are adjoining and she probably felt more like a prisoner than a lover.  Then she thinks "whew!" the trip is over and I'm finally back in my own world and surprise surprise!  Look who just pops up!  She is going to have to dump him fast!  I hope he doesn't throw the trip up in her face but if so, she brought it on herself!

That was another thing that amused me enormously - Mary claimed to have no particular routine, and she said it with a straight face, too. Everything at Downton is run according to routine!

[kpw801]

I agree that Carson is becoming bitter but disagree that he's the only one who seems to be lamenting the loss of their old world. Obviously Robert and Violet are the main ones looking forward to the past but I get that sense from Mrs Patmore and Molesley too. O'Brien was another one back when she was there. There were those crying Russians. 

 

I'm on the fence about this but lean towards him ultimately not going there because JF (as much as he likes to recycle storylines) likely doesn't want this to happen to Mary again. Also, while Mary would bear the brunt of any scandal, there are still people who would think he'd behaved badly and would hold it against him and I think that would keep him from telling the world. He strikes me as the kind of person who cares what his mother and family would think. Plus his lack of discretion wouldn't necessarily be helpful for him if he thinks he may be looking to have affairs with married/divorced/widowed society women in the future.

 

I think Mrs Hughes and Anna both have it in the back of their heads it just isn't something they feel like discussing or getting into since the don't have any new info. They exchanged a look when they saw the baby picture and they both had the same thought but decided to move on because whatever the situation is I'm guessing they think it's probably better for them not to get involved. Actually, Mrs Hughes has to know because she also overheard the conversation on the night of the fire. 

She's a smart woman but this probably isn't something that she feels like she should talk about with anyone unless the situation changes in some way and she's compelled to for whatever reason. 

ITA.  Mrs. Hughes and Anna are old school proper.  They really don't like to stick their noses into the business of the upstairs folk.  Now if it was O'Brien, she would have been all over it and she and Thomas would have been outside smoking and talking about it trying to find ways to use the knowledge to their own advantage.  O'Brien was extremely judgmental.  As a matter of fact the whole turkish scandal was really because of O'Brien.  She pushed Daisy and manipulated Edith to get Daisy to tell what she knew and that is what blew it wide open.  No one else would have done that and she did it out of jealousy because she felt Lady Mary didn't deserve to have privileges after she had shamed herself with a foreigner.  That is probably why Thomas is so over the top with Baxter.  He missed having inside info from O'Brien that could give him the upper hand.

 

Anna and Mrs. Hughes just want to keep their noses clean, do their job and live their own lives.

[kpw801]

Another thing.  They are going to have to really try to suddenly make Cora smart.  She is one of the stupidest people on the show.  I am not upset with Robert for finding her some what of a dim bulb.  Everyone in the house knew what a shrew O'Brien was.  From Robert, to Anna, to Sybil to Mary no one had a good word for her because she never had a good word for anyone else.  How Cora could not have seen behind O'Brien's manipulations is surreal.  Now she is just as stupid when it comes to Barrow.  In fact both of them are stupid when it comes to him.  I couldn't understand how Lord Grantham thought it was okay for Thomas to manage the house during the war simply because his wife was too stupid to be aware of Thomas's shortcomings.  It just boggles the mind.  We as the audience have seen O'Brien literally kill Cora's unborn baby.  You know for someone to have that much malice most of the time you feel it in the atmosphere.  Everyone else in the house knew O'Brien was evil.  Then she is made aware of how Thomas was blackmailing Baxter and just because he yells fire and saves Lady Edith he gets away with yet another transgression.  Most of the time people watch things like this for escapism and one of those escapes seeing justice in a fantasy world when our own lives leave much to be desired.  This show lets the villains get away with everything!  Sure mean old Nanny West got sacked but Thomas and O'Brien have gotten away with everything.  

[ZulaMay]

Robert basically gets away with everything too.  And Mary's not a villain but she is selfish and she gets everything she wants anyway.  And Sybil, the nicest sister, ends up dead and now her widower is living in the house she wanted to escape serving a purpose that was certainly not her purpose in life.  In other words, serving Mary's goal and lifelong dream....Downton.  Because that's all that matters!  And Edith is constantly tortured....by the writer and her family and, just to pour salt in the wound, sometimes by Mary.

 

Yeah, it gets to be a real downer sometimes.

Edited October 6, 2014 by ZulaMay

[Llywela]

 

They are going to have to really try to suddenly make Cora smart.  She is one of the stupidest people on the show.

I don't see a disconnect between Cora being rather naive and dim with regard to the people around her - cosseted as she's been by a sheltered life - and her having an innate but undeveloped appreciation of art. People can be more than one thing. All we saw in this episode was Cora expressing what she saw in a painting and Mr Bricker praising her for it. That wasn't the show saying Cora is suddenly smart, it was the show saying a) Mr Bricker really likes Cora, b) Cora has an appreciation for art that she's never had the opportunity to explore or express, and c) Cora opens up like a daisy when someone actually offers her validation instead of shutting her down. We've had years of Cora being dismissed by the people closest to her, who see her as a dumb American; no wonder she's retreated into her own little bubble and disengaged from the world the way she has. I really liked seeing the way she blossomed when shown a little appreciation, and it made for a strong parallel with Daisy's story, someone else discovering that she is capable of more than she realised: all it took was a little encouragement and education to bring it out.

[Cherpumple]

That was another thing that amused me enormously - Mary claimed to have no particular routine, and she said it with a straight face, too. Everything at Downton is run according to routine!

I know! This was a ridiculous line, especially since about 10 seconds later she says that if they get engaged, "nothing will happen that isn't properly announced, organised, and executed."

 

My favourite line of the night was Violet's reaction to Mary's sex week: "In my day a lady was incapable of feeling physical attraction until she had been instructed to do so by her ma ma." Bwah! Don't ever change Violet.

[kpw801]

We've had years of Cora being dismissed by the people closest to her, who see her as a dumb American; no wonder she's retreated into her own little bubble and disengaged from the world the way she has. I really liked seeing the way she blossomed when shown a little appreciation, and it made for a strong parallel with Daisy's story, someone else discovering that she is capable of more than she realised: all it took was a little encouragement and education to bring it out.

Well when you put it like that, I see your point.  

[jester]

Can we just get a series of Isobel and Violet riding around in the car being politely catty with each other? The two of them on screen together is always gold.

 

I feel like Robert's anger with Cora was the light finally coming on and jealousy and fear motivated his insulting reaction. Cora handled it beautifully and I really liked the whole exchange between the two of them.

 

I am bored with the Bates murder story along with everyone else. It's a shame too because I think there is so much more Brendan Coyle is capable of bringing this show.

 

Lady Edith...ugh...just so over it. LOVE Laura Charmichael and think she is beautiful and talented, but this whole storyline with Marigold is just so slow and ridiculous having her playing blind and oblivious is tiresome.

I still feel like there's some chance that Tony ends up being sketchy.  His showing up at Downton just seemed really sketchy.

"Sketchy" . I see what you did there.  :)

[kpw801]

Can we just get a series of Isobel and Violet riding around in the car being politely catty with each other? The two of them on screen together is always gold.

 

I feel like Robert's anger with Cora was the light finally coming on and jealousy and fear motivated his insulting reaction. Cora handled it beautifully and I really liked the whole exchange between the two of them.

 

I am bored with the Bates murder story along with everyone else. It's a shame too because I think there is so much more Brendan Coyle is capable of bringing this show.

 

Lady Edith...ugh...just so over it. LOVE Laura Charmichael and think she is beautiful and talented, but this whole storyline with Marigold is just so slow and ridiculous having her playing blind and oblivious is tiresome.

"Sketchy" . I see what you did there.  :)

LOL!  I just got that too!

[Avaleigh]

Cora's attitude towards O'Brien and Thomas were and are my biggest problems with her. I don't think she's stupid in general but I agree that she is often stupid when it comes to stuff with the staff. Cora has shown herself to be sharp on occasion and I like that she's the only one who has called out the fact that Violet doesn't really have Isobel's best interests at heart when it comes to the whole Lord Merton thing. 

 

Good question about whether or not Edith is still contributing to the newspaper. I'm guessing not since we haven't had a mention of it in awhile and definitely well over a year in show time.

 

ETA:

 

I loved how Violet totally lost herself for a moment when she first saw the prince. For a moment it was like they were the only two people in the room. It was a fun moment and I liked hearing about her memories of the Winter Palace and the sleigh rides and everything.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Avaleigh

[Glade]

Meh.  Cora's subplot was very interesting, but to be honest I started to fear that she was going to die at the end episode, especially after that cryptic conversation with her would-be-lover.  I'd much rather Robert die, of course--nothing but hate for him and Carson in this episode, and I'm glad we got a break from the poor, poor Russian aristrocracy.  So sad that you can no longer live a life of extreme wealth while the peasants starve...  I'd still prefer Tom find someone else, though--Mrs. Bunting is not pretty or likeable.  Mary's plot is not romantic or passionate at all--it's dull.  If Mary's going to swing back to Charles Blake now, I guess he will try to blackmail her and it will turn out that Tony killed him.  I also wondered, would it be possible that Greene was the man whom Baxter was corrupted into stealing for in her former position?  Maybe she killed him, but was so watchful of Bates because she thought she could frame him if the time came?  I don't think Bates killed anyone (except for the people that he, Robert, Matthew, Thomas, etc. were paid to kill for the king), and no, he's not likely to beat Anna.  But it is ridiculously selfish of Mary to use Anna in this way again and again. 

 

I'd love to see Edith still writing her articles.  And I sorely missed Rosamund this episode, hopefully she will show up later in the season; since she is the only one who knows who Marigold is, she's probably pissed as hell. 

Edited October 6, 2014 by Glade

[bluebonnet]

I can't figure out why I'm still watching this show.  Each season has been nearly the same storyline as the previous.  Bates has anger and murder problems, Barrow is schemes and gets caught then forgiven, Mary has man stuff, Violet and Isobel bicker, Robert feels marginalized, the butlers lament the changing ways, and bad shit always happens to Edith.  I still can't tell the difference between Mary's men.  But I can't stop watching.  

[kpw801]

I'd still prefer Tom find someone else, though--Mrs. Bunting is not pretty or likeable.  

Amen!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I think that Rose treats Tom like family too. She originally invited Ms. Bunting to dinner not to irritate Robert (which would have been my motivation) but because she said Tom should have a friend there too. Cora also told Tom that he should feel free to have guests because Downton is his home too. She understands what it's like to marry into this family! It will be interesting to see who supports Tom besides Mary if he decided to leave Downton with Sybbie.

[olivia1]

 

I also wondered, would it be possible that Greene was the man whom Baxter was corrupted into stealing for in her former position?  Maybe she killed him, but was so watchful of Bates because she thought she could frame him if the time came?  I

I have wondered how she knew that Bates had gone to London. Thomas kept badgering her to tell him what she knew about Bates and why she kept staring at Bates and Anna. She refused and that's what led to her telling Cora everything.  What does she know and how does she know? Did I miss something? 

[ZulaMay]

Glade, oh God, I know.  The Russian aristocracy does not stir my sympathies one bit.  Peasants were basically serfs there and treated like dirt:  the ruling class got what they deserved when they lost power.  I'm not talking about shooting the Tsar's family, of course.  But loss of wealth and position?  Cry me a river. That one prince got so butthurt when Sarah said something about the Tsar.  Sure, she needs to just shut her mouth sometimes (and that was one of them) but it was like the guy couldn't BEAR to hear anyone question him.  Just like Robert.  A big baby.

 

And I also laughed when Mary said she wasn't governed by routine and ritual.  JFC, how lacking in self-awareness can you be?  We've been watching her perform the same rituals for ten years now in show time, most of it involving getting dressed and primped to sit with her family for dinner or lunch or whatever.

 

Consider her line in Episode One: "I am going upstairs to take off my hat."  I think that says it all.  

Edited October 6, 2014 by ZulaMay

[DianeDobbler]

The hidden diaphragm is ludicrous. If Mary wants to keep it, she can hide it anywhere. If she wants to get rid of it, she can throw it out in one of the household bins - the big, main garbage bins. If she's too paranoid for that she can ditch it on the grounds somewhere. I'm sure it's happened that a couple of locals could have done the deed on the property at some point and if a plot device mandates it's found, then it doesn't have to be Mary's diaphragm - how would anyone know. Or she can get herself to the village and find a bin there. Or throw it out the car window on the way. This is ridiculous.

 

More ridiculous: that Mrs. Drew can't see Marigold is Edith's. Yes, this would involve realizing her husband misled her, but I'm sure she's capable of making the leap. Here's Mrs. Drew tending a child that's not hers. Here's the thirtysomething unmarried single lady of the big house, showing up constantly to fawn over Marigold and be emotional. Yet the light doesn't dawn.

 

If there's one thing I don't want to go near again, it's Bates' sex life. Even Anna hiding a diaphragm that belongs to Mary in the cottage - and what an asinine plot twist that is - is too close to "Bates' sex life" for comfort for me.

[ZulaMay]

Also there is the fact that Marigold actually resembles Edith IMO.  Sure, her coloring is not unusual but since Mrs. Drewe commented on it in 5.01 while Edith was holding her?  You'd think by now it might have occurred to her.  It's not just her coloring:  she does kind of look like her.

[Featherhat]

The Anna/diaphragm subplot was the most painful one to me and so ludicrous and blatant that they want Bates to find it as assume his wife is secretly using contraception or having an affair as a way to give him more martyred manpain. Mary could have locked it in her jewellery box or safe or hidden it away in a discreet case at the back of a cupboard. Anna is the main maid that goes through Mary's belongings and she already knows about it. It's already shocked her Grandmother and they both survived, it would shock her mother but then so did Pamuck when Mary was an 18 year old virgin and they just about survived that, and a discreet liaison as a 30 something widow is not the end of the world, even if it is embarrassing to have everyone find out about and Cora's not likely to be going through Mary's private things.

 

I do wonder if things are being set up for Mrs Drewe to think that Marigold is Edith's and her husband's. Edith's just being so blatant that she has an emotional connection to the baby that her husband suddenly told her that they were adopting a few months ago.

[kpw801]

What does she know and how does she know? Did I miss something? 

She knows the same way Mrs. Hughes knew that Bates called his wife a bit*h and that Ms. O'Brien knew most everything she knew and the same way Thomas knew Braithwaite was down in the dumps when she was talking to Tom.  She lurks around corners and watches.  But I think she does it mainly because she is nosy.  Not like Thomas and O'Brien.