S06.E03: Jagged Little Tapestry

[Myrna123]

Again as with other examples, yes the topic maybe be broached but not debated in detail like this has been for the past 3 or 4 pages.

Not here granted, but every discussion forum is different. There are plenty of sites where the Blaine outrage would be legendary if Santana turned her salty tongue on him. It just so happens there aren't a lot of Blaine fans here.

I feel like back in the Glee heyday, there were a lot of character stans who vocally and vehemently catalogued every insult, sleight and affront. They've all just wised up and cut the cord. Really, there's only, like, 15 of us who post regularly here, and where we come out on an episode or scene is a surprise to no one.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Myrna123

[KatWay]

 

If Santana had that same kind of rant against Blaine (using Darren references)  I do not think around here  it would get much outraged  and certainly not  for 6 pages.

If they need any amunition for a Blaine rant they need not look further than this forum (though TWOP is I think where I read the more vicious stuff). The bald spot, the gelled hair, FB-fucker (granted, this one's the character not the actor but the vitriol with which this was thrown around drove me up the tree), his shortness, the weird faces, weak voice and whatnot.

 

I doubt there'd be much outrage there. I've never particularly liked the rants because a lot of them veered over into actor territory (Cory and Lea are the ones I remember, but I might have not paid too much attention so I can't say for sure who else), but hell, it's Glee. Being offensive is just par for the course for them. I doubt it was meant in any way an attack on the actor, I just think they don't care enough to make sure those lines aren't crossed. They never have, they're not gonna start now in season 6. I'm surprised that people take this so seriously.

[tom87]

Not here granted, but every discussion forum is different. There are plenty of sites where the Blaine outrage would be legendary if Santana turned her salty tongue on him. It just so happens there aren't a lot of Blaine fans here.

I feel like back in the Glee heyday, there were a lot of character stans who vocally and vehemently catalogued every insult, sleight and affront. They've all just wised up and cut the cord. Really, there's only, like, 15 of us who post regularly here, and where we come out on an episode or scene is a surprise to no one.

 

But if the true point of why people are so outraged is because of the attacks against the cast it shouldn't matter if they are Blaine fans or not. 

 

Do I think people dislike the insults made at the expense of the the cast,  sure,  but I think this outrage may have as much if not more to do with the fact it was aimed at Kurt/Chris.

 

Just a thought. 

Edited January 19, 2015 by tom87

[Myrna123]

But if the true point of why people are so outraged is because of the attacks against the cast it shouldn't matter if they are Blaine fans or not. 

 

Do I think people dislike the insults made at the expense of the the cast,  sure,  but I think this outrage may have as much if not more to do with the fact it was aimed at Kurt/Chris.

 

Just a thought.

Well of course that's true. Some characters and actors at one forum are always going to engender more passion/discussion than others. That has more to do with the make up of forum posters than anything else.

[jaytee1812]

Do I think people dislike the insults made at the expense of the the cast,  sure,  but I think this outrage may have as much if not more to do with the fact it was aimed at Kurt/Chris.

 

Just a thought.

I think you're probably right in some respects, that we do react more when it's our favourites. I didn't like the rant, but I've never liked Santana's rants. But had it been against Tina or Kitty I would've been much more up in arms.

I wonder how the actors feel about delivering these insults aimed at the actors looks etc. in some cases these will be their close friends.

[Camera One]

An episode like this divides and conquers if the fans are really invested in one or two characters, and hate certain other characters.  Personally, I only watch shows where I enjoy the majority, if not all of the characters, to some extent.  So to me, this episode didn't make me feel too strongly either way.  The character development on this show sucks.  But simplistically, what Kurt said was explained by what he was feeling in the spur of the moment, and Santana was angry and they always get her to make rude comments when she feels that way.  To the writers, they hugged it out at the end, Kurt apologized, and all's well that ends well.  This is no more idiotic than Sue being such a motherly figure this episode towards Coach Bieste after spewing a whole bunch of rude insults.  

 

The personal attacks, the use of characters like Becky, etc., this is where Murphy draws most of his "humor" from.  It's supposed to make the show cutting, dark and edgy.  I didn't find it all that funny in Season 1, and I still don't. But that's one of the trademarks of the show, and it's going to be in every episode until the end.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Camera One

[fakeempress]

If they need any amunition for a Blaine rant they need not look further than this forum (though TWOP is I think where I read the more vicious stuff). The bald spot, the gelled hair, FB-fucker (granted, this one's the character not the actor but the vitriol with which this was thrown around drove me up the tree), his shortness, the weird faces, weak voice and whatnot.

 

I doubt there'd be much outrage there. I've never particularly liked the rants because a lot of them veered over into actor territory (Cory and Lea are the ones I remember, but I might have not paid too much attention so I can't say for sure who else), but hell, it's Glee. Being offensive is just par for the course for them. I doubt it was meant in any way an attack on the actor, I just think they don't care enough to make sure those lines aren't crossed. They never have, they're not gonna start now in season 6. I'm surprised that people take this so seriously.

I said about the bald spot, the shortness jabs I don't recall that much. But the rest of what you say is about his character (the gelled hair isn't a Darren feature), or his skill as an actor and singer which are not out of bounds. Many people have qualified Chris' voice as nails on chalkboard, for instance, that's their opinion on his singing.  

Edited January 19, 2015 by fakeempress

[Higgs]

"[Kurt] looks lIke someone who just removed their top row of dentures every time they smile".

(Prison rape sometimes begins when a dominant male knocks out the front teeth of someone he wants to make his "bitch".) While the accusation of committing fellatio should not be insulting to a gay man (or to the huge majority of straight women who also indulge in the practice, even if not always with the same degree of enthusiasm in real life as actresses display in porn), and accounts in large measure for Kurt's rather bemused reaction, to say Kurt "looks" like he does is an underhanded attack on Chris's acceptability to a straight male audience. It's for that exact same reason that Lea objected to being characterized as flat-chested:

(Her nose is about as much a handicap as the great Ruth Wilson's upper lip.) Edited January 19, 2015 by Higgs

[Sara2009]

If they need any amunition for a Blaine rant they need not look further than this forum (though TWOP is I think where I read the more vicious stuff). The bald spot, the gelled hair, FB-fucker

(granted, this one's the character not the actor

but the vitriol with which this was thrown around

drove me up the tree), his shortness, the weird

faces, weak voice and whatnot.

I doubt there'd be much outrage there. I've never particularly liked the rants because a lot of them veered over into actor territory (Cory and Lea are the ones I remember, but I might have not paid

too much attention so I can't say for sure who

else), but hell, it's Glee. Being offensive is just

par for the course for them. I doubt it was meant

in any way an attack on the actor, I just think

they don't care enough to make sure those lines

aren't crossed. They never have, they're not

gonna start now in season 6. I'm surprised that

people take this so seriously.

Matt Morrison has gotten a lot of " abuse" too. Over the years the show has taken shots at his hair, chin, and hands. I remember him mentioning in an interview that he's a bit self-conscious now.

[missalanny]

I think we're all in a bad place in the post-Rachel-slaps-Santana world of Glee.  That was the one time Santana was using her vitriol to actually cut Rachel down to size in a moment when she actually kinda deserved it, and also the one time where someone actually fought Santana back - but Rachel went too far and was in the wrong... and now everything is so muddled. The truth is, Santana has gotten away with way too much without any realisitic repercussions.  When Finn stood up to her in Season 2, he outed her, and again, was now the one in the wrong. I remember this being a big topic of discussion on older Glee boards, and even though Finn had been verbally abused by Santana for the length of the show, fans were right to feel the gravity of how wrong what he did was... But, was this necessarily an unrealistic depiction of how a high school student might have reacted to a bully? I don't think so... (And I thought for a show that fucks up almost every after-school-special moment they force upon us, I thought they got through it with a relative bit of tact.)  But, my point is: the show has never shown a balanced view of how an actual Santana Lopez would navigate a real teenage/young adult life, and this whole thing with Kurt stirring you all up so much proves how muddled the character is, IMO.  Even Sue - who is an even more over-the-top character than Santana (than anyone), is a better developed character, depicted more realisitically human.  I think the lack of true dimension has created a cult around the character too - everyone either loves her or hates her and seems 100% with just basing that on face value becuase that's all we get.  Like I said before - I do not like the character and I never have.  I don't find 1-dimensional bitch characters entertaining.  And it's sad that she still isn't much more than that, six seasons into the show.  I like Naya and have always appreciated Santana being around if only because she's one of the better singers, but they wasted her on a character that never grew.  

[fakeempress]

 

Hollywood. I'll guarantee you she's constantly advised to lose ten pounds. I agree she's in fantastic shape and looks great, but the pressure for actresses to be a size 0 is ridiculous.  Becca Tobin has actually written on the topic, and it's well worth a read if you haven't already seen it. It's almost unfathomable Becca would feel pressure about her size, but she does.

It's ridiculous, especially for Becca, she would disappear if she were to lose 10 pounds. 

 

I wonder how many times has Chris been "advised" by industry people to "fix his teeth", and I wonder if he'll go for it after Glee is done. If Cory and Naya felt the need to get veneers when there was nothing wrong with their smiles before, on the contrary, Cory had such a boyish infectious smile, I can't imagine the pressure to look perfect. Naya I feel lost something intrinsically her and looks more cookie-cutter now. That's also why I respect actors like Steve Buscemi, Kirsten Dunst, Ruth Wilson, for not bowing down (not that there is anything wrong with Naya's veneers per se). I think Steve has talked bout this actually. 

Edited January 19, 2015 by fakeempress

[AriAu]

Out from lurking to put in my 2 cents-the rant was soooooo over the top that it was impossible to take it seriously. As it labored on, I actually started to laugh, not at the lines as much of the audacity of the fact it kept going and going and going.

I think we were supposed to believe that Santana went off since it was such a personal affront to question her love for Brit Brit, but I think that got lost in the deluge.

And as to why Lady Hummel did not react, remember, this is a TV SHOW-they had rehearsed it several times and he knew what was coming...they all did. And if Chris Colfer really had a problem with all this, he would most likely have said something to the writers to tone it down when he read the script or as Naya spewed it at him during rehearsal etc....

 

That's also why I respect actors like Steve Buscemi, Kirsten Dunst, Ruth Wilson, for not bowing down (not that there is anything wrong with Naya's veneers per se). I think Steve has talked bout this actually.

 

Don't forget Jessica Pare-on Mad Men they even had a casting director tell her to get her teeth fixed in a very non-joking way.

[Ceeg]

FWIW, Joaquin Sedillo (the DP) tweeted the day they filmed the rant how great Naya was in the scene, and later when it aired, said that she blew the crew away. So, not to speak for people I don't actually know, but if Chris had an issue with the scene or was personally hurt/offended/angry/(insert emotion of choice) then I don't actually think the crew, who know these actors and are there on set everyday, would be talking about how amazing Naya was in the scene. Maybe I'm wrong and they all hate Chris. Or maybe some people are being over-sensitive, and are projecting their own issues of bullying and hurt feelings onto this situation. Much like Kurt did to Santana re: marrying too young.

[dizzyizzy01]

Chris didn't bring 'baton swirling' (it's sais, for God's sake, and they're razor sharp) into the show, that was actually Brad Falchuk, who now conveniently takes a cheap shot at something he wanted for Kurt while Chris protested it.

 

If this the case, it further supports the point that the comment is NOT directed at Chris, it's directed at Kurt.  Sais=/=Batons and Chris=/=Kurt.

 

Btw, Kurt did baton-twirling in his cheerios audition in season 1 so it as a classic part of the character.  Gawd, why do I remember this...

 

When people dissect every line to this bizarre level of scrutiny, I think they're actively looking for something so that they can stake claim that it's an attack on the actor.  Anyway, the ongoing discussion seems to support that at least for some, the biggest offense is that the rant was against a character one of their favorite actors portrays.  For some others, the rant stands out for it's sheer length.  Nothing was really said in this rant that goes beyond the pale of what Santana has said in the past.  However, I do think that's a natural feeling though to be offended more when it could be perceived that the comments are directed at someone you like. 

 

And again, I don't think any of Santana's rants have been justified. The countless insults about Rachel, Quinn, Finn, Sam and others in the past have always been terribly offensive.  People are cherry-picking if they think this particular one is worse than others.

Edited January 19, 2015 by dizzyizzy01

[tom87]

If this the case, it further supports the point that the comment is NOT directed at Chris, it's directed at Kurt.  Sais=/=Batons and Chris=/=Kurt.

 

Btw, Kurt did baton-twirling in his cheerios audition in season 1 so it as a classic part of the character.  Gawd, why do I remember this...

 

When people dissect every line to this bizarre level of scrutiny, I think they're actively looking for something so that they can stake claim that it's an attack on the actor.  Anyway, the ongoing discussion seems to support that at least for some, the biggest offense is that the rant was against a character one of their favorite actors portrays.  For some others, the rant stands out for it's sheer length.  Nothing was really said in this rant that goes beyond the pale of what Santana has said in the past.  However, I do think that's a natural feeling though to be offended more when it could be perceived that the comments are directed at someone you like. 

 

And again, I don't think any of Santana's rants have been justified. The countless insults about Rachel, Quinn, Finn, Sam and others in the past have always been terribly offensive.  People are cherry-picking if they think this particular one is worse than others.

Kurt also just likes to twirl things I doubt that is all written into the script.

 

http://becauseofthebowties.tumblr.com/post/38432896552/kurt-hummel-twirling-things

[Higgs]

Baton Twirling For Dummies: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=baton+twirler

"Google and ye shall find"--an adage for a new age.

[dizzyizzy01]

Kurt also just likes to twirl things I doubt that is all written into the script.

 

http://becauseofthebowties.tumblr.com/post/38432896552/kurt-hummel-twirling-things

 

Seems fair to believe that the dig is not directed at Chris then as others want to believe; it clearly seems part of the character of Kurt ;)

[Glorfindel]

FWIW, Joaquin Sedillo (the DP) tweeted the day they filmed the rant how great Naya was in the scene, and later when it aired, said that she blew the crew away. So, not to speak for people I don't actually know, but if Chris had an issue with the scene or was personally hurt/offended/angry/(insert emotion of choice) then I don't actually think the crew, who know these actors and are there on set everyday, would be talking about how amazing Naya was in the scene. Maybe I'm wrong and they all hate Chris. Or maybe some people are being over-sensitive, and are projecting their own issues of bullying and hurt feelings onto this situation. Much like Kurt did to Santana re: marrying too young.

Chris is a professional like all the rest: he can seperate the talent of Naya Rivera with the things her character does. Same goes for Joaquin Sedillo. Fact is: we'll probably never know how this has affected Chris or not.

But another fact is that what was said to Kurt did upset a lot of people, because it was beyond malicious and tore down a character for almost 2(!) minutes that used to mean a lot to (vulnerable) people watching the show. And it tore down this character for things he (and his actor) cannot change, things he was bulied for all his life, things that Glee prided themselves for that the show made people aware of this unfairness and abuse, and pretended to give the good example to society that things will get better for people like Kurt. A lot of Glee's critical acclaim was based on that (like the 2011 live tour dvd focusing on those 3 fan/underdog stories), the writers even talked about McKinley in season 6 being "post Glee" gay tolerant for God's sake.

Imagine if Mercedes got an extremely racist rant directed at her, would people still think it was "justified" and funny, and just something Amber's fans shouldn't be touchy about? But what's really the difference between that and attacking Kurt's (and also Chris') sexuality? To tear down an iconic gay character as Kurt like this, after basically shitting on him for 3 seasons now, is the exact opposite of what RIB said Glee was about (after they started their PSA's in season 2) and got their critical acclaim for. They're hypocrites.

 

I also don't think it's strange that fans of a certain character/actor react more when something like this happens to heir fave. After all: they focus more on what's being said to that character and know the actor's personal circumstances the best (as much as a fan can) and so they see better when the show crosses a line. And as others have said: characters getting short insults hurled at them (often by Santana btw) is par for the course on Glee, but this particular rant went on far too long and therefore stood out.

So yes, maybe this time for me it had more impact because it was Kurt, and in a way, Chris, but I don't think anyone of his fans protesting now has not also noticed and often protested insults directed at other character's physical appearance and/or their actors, nor would they agree with and even celebrate an unwarrant vicious attack like this, and for me that includes when it's Darren.

I despise Blaine and I'm not fond of Darren, but if RIB would ridicule his looks he can't change, like his bald spot or shortness, or anything that can be directly related back to Darren and not just to Blaine, I would be angry too. Maybe I wouldn't make numerous posts about it as I do now with Kurt/Chris, as I'm not his fan, but I'm sure I'd make at least one post and agree with others, and would not call his fans over-sensitive or utter other dismissive terms to downplay their feelings, especially not when it was my favorite who had said those things to him.

 

I do remember much debate about the Finn rant but then  it go countered with the outing and how the writers made Santana go over board to push Finn yada, yada.

Isn't this similar though? The Santana rant gets 'justified' because Kurt commented negatively on (he didn't even interrupt it) her proposal to Brittany? Do you think her fans would be celebrating her "slaying" Kurt so much if that hadn't happened?

In the Finn/Santana situation some people also said that Santana "deserved" being outed by Finn (although imo Finn didn't deliberately outed her) for what she did, when noone deserves to be outed. Do you really think Kurt deserved being completely dehumanized for what he did this episode?

 

"[Kurt] looks lIke someone who just removed their top row of dentures every time they smile".

(Prison rape sometimes begins when a dominant male knocks out the front teeth of someone he wants to make his "bitch".) While the accusation of committing fellatio should not be insulting to a gay man (or to the huge majority of straight women who also indulge in the practice, even if not always with the same degree of enthusiasm in real life as actresses display in porn), and accounts in large measure for Kurt's rather bemused reaction, to say Kurt "looks" like he does is an underhanded attack on Chris's acceptability to a straight male audience. It's for that exact same reason that Lea objected to being characterized as flat-chested: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0zQMT4iJjkc (Her nose is about as much a handicap as the great Ruth Wilson's upper lip.)

They already had a sexual innuendo joke aimed at Kurt's teeth in 5x08, 'Previously Unaired Christmas', when after the girls found that Kurt was tied up by sexy Santa he said that Santa liked kissing him because it was like he [Kurt] had no teeth.

[Hana Chan]

Santana's rants have always had a nasty edge to them, but for the most part they were cruel one-liners tossed about like confetti to reaffirm that yes, she is a bitch and proud of it. And for the most part, the characters that she has bonded to most strongly, especially in the NY storyline, take those jabs in stride because that's Santana.

 

But a line was very clearly crossed here. This wasn't one or two lines that Kurt is funny looking or is a bad dancer (which again has absolutely nothing to do with what instigated her rant). It was a two minute long screed that basically shit all over everything Kurt (and to a large degree Chris) is as a person. And the fact that Kurt didn't get into a screaming match with her in the hallway about what an awful person she is and that she could count herself lucky that Brittany doesn't have the IQ wattage to get away from her is more to Kurt's credit (that he's mature enough not to get into a smack down with a crazy person) than anything else.  The writers did a miserable job in keeping Santana's rant without bounds where it can just be passed off as Santana being Santana  because they just took it way too far.

 

It's the old saying - all fun and games until someone loses an eye.

[SeanC]

But a line was very clearly crossed here.

I don't really see that.  It was pretty much the same as her other rants: the person is sad about it, then they're friends again without explanation.

[dizzyizzy01]

I despise Blaine and I'm not fond of Darren, but if RIB would ridicule his looks he can't change, like his bald spot or shortness, or anything that can be directly related back to Darren and not just to Blaine, I would be angry too.

 

 

Doesn't the show consistently refer to Blaine as a hobbit?  Nobody seems to care about that....

 

After all: they focus more on what's being said to that character and know the actor's personal circumstances the best (as much as a fan can) and so they see better when the show crosses a line.

 

That is a difficult line to draw.  You don't know the actor personally.  I HIGHLY doubt Chris feels the show crossed a line with this particular insult because really is the teeth insult worse than making nose jokes about a girl who was told at age 15 to get a nose job?  Or Asian-stereotype jokes towards an actors/actresses that have likely been type casted their entire lives?  There are a lot more examples one can easily draw upon.

 

I'm not agreeing that any of these jokes are particularly funny, but the show has consistently been about off-color humor for it's entire run.  Nothing's changed with this particular episode.  

Edited January 19, 2015 by dizzyizzy01

[Glorfindel]

If this the case, it further supports the point that the comment is NOT directed at Chris, it's directed at Kurt. Sais=/=Batons and Chris=/=Kurt.

Kurt also just likes to twirl things I doubt that is all written into the script.

 

http://becauseofthebowties.tumblr.com/post/38432896552/kurt-hummel-twirling-things

Yes, at first Kurt twirling things was part of Chris' background moments. Btw: he only twirled the baton once, back in season 1 (and Santana wasn't even there to witness it, so how would she know?), whereas he twirled his sais twice, as recently as in 5x16.

But the moment when Chris' twirling skills was first actively written in the script as a skill Kurt also posesses was when Brad Falchuk wanted him to show off his sai swords in 'The Greatest Star of All', in season 3. And even though Chris was against it at first it was still written in, and Brad is now making fun of those skills: sais or batons, it doesn't really matter..

 

But granted, things aren't clear on this, as the actor's bleed on the show has gone so far. I guess it's not just the seperate parts of the rant that cannot all be 100% 'proven' to be about Chris, but it's the sum of it all.

As I said earlier: the notion that imo it was no coincidence that the only things mocked in that rant (to explain why Kurt was utterly intolerable and not worth loving!) were the things that Chris shares with Kurt, when there are many other things they could have picked that are exclusively Kurt's.

 

Leaving the discussion if this was (partly) directed at Chris or not for a moment, because I think it's muddling and overtaking some of the arguments: that rant was still severely homophobic, effemiphobic, misogynist and ageist, and even if it was directed only at Kurt  it was way out of line, going beyond making fun of a character, and not appropiate at all for the 'crime' that character needed to be called out for. Glee constantly bullies the minorities they say they celebrate, but seldom as vicious as this.

I'm very disappointed in and angry at Brad (and the other writers/producers who approved it) for writing what Santana said in her anger this way, but as others have said: it's nothing new for them to do and basically they are just petty, incompetent writers who have shown very little respect for their own show and its cast. But to be honest: I'm more disappointed in part of Glee's fandom, who apparently either have become so blasé about Glee's insults that they just shrug their shoulders now, or are more invested in their own fave and/or OTP that they don't care and even celebrate when another gay character gets kicked in the guts for 2 minutes.

[Ceeg]

 

It's the old saying - all fun and games until someone loses an eye.

 

But no one lost an eye. Except overly sensitive fans. Kurt seemed fine.

 

Isn't this similar though? The Santana rant gets 'justified' because Kurt commented negatively on (he didn't even interrupt it) her proposal to Brittany? Do you think her fans would be celebrating her "slaying" Kurt so much if that hadn't happened?

In the Finn/Santana situation some people also said that Santana "deserved" being outed by Finn (although imo Finn didn't deliberately outed her) for what she did, when noone deserves to be outed. Do you really think Kurt deserved being completely dehumanized for what he did this episode?

 

No, it's not similar because the rant against Finn wasn't actually justified at all. She was just mad at him for...I don't even remember. Competing against the TroubleTones? Hating Finn just because she hated Finn? I will admit that Santana is my favorite character, and Finn was absolutely my least favorite, and I still didn't like the rant against Finn. Because it wasn't depicted as being funny or justified or deserving. The tone was that she clearly overstepped and it resulted in her being outed to the entire state. 

 

Whether you thought it was funny or not, that was the intention of the Kurt/Santana scene, given the music and Rachel's facial expressions, and Kurt's complete lack of emotion. 

 

 

But another fact is that what was said to Kurt did upset a lot of people, because it was beyond malicious and tore down a character for almost 2(!) minutes that used to mean a lot to (vulnerable) people watching the show.

 

If people are so vulnerable that they feel "triggered" by watching a show like Glee, then maybe they shouldn't watch a show like Glee.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Ceeg

[Glorfindel]

Doesn't the show consistently refer to Blaine as a hobbit?  Nobody seems to care about that....

Maybe one or two times? I really can't remember because I usually block anything Blaine related out. But even if it was more times than that, that is comparable with the short (no pun intended) insults constantly hurled at the other characters, like Santana and Sue calling Kurt "lady Hummel", or the insults Rachel gets for her looks.

It's still not right imo, mind you.

[morgankobi]

After watching Rachel and Kurt hanging out in the choir room all day, I'm struck by how I never realized there are no choir classes in that room. Neither of them are teachers, "coaches" or "sponsors" would be the accurate term as neither actually teach any classes (fingerprinting and a background check would be the minimum needed to do what they do if the school wanted to hire them). Will was always teaching in a regular room during the day.

Is there no choir teacher at all? How were they putting on a musical way back without any of these kids knowing about it? Is there a second, aptly-named choir room with an actual choir teacher?

I think Sue was right to use that space for something meaningful :)

[dizzyizzy01]

Maybe one or two times? I really can't remember because I usually block anything Blaine related out. But even if it was more times than that, that is comparable with the short (no pun intended) insults constantly hurled at the other characters, like Santana and Sue calling Kurt "lady Hummel", or the insults Rachel gets for her looks.

It's still not right imo, mind you.

 

 

But it does seem to invalidate the idea that people find the same type of insult consistently offensive (something about a physical attribute one cannot change) regardless of who you direct it at.  Darren can't change his stature.  Lea can't change her looks.  Very few people care about these insults.

 

"Lady Hummel" is not an insult directed at Chris.  Kurt's character is written as "one of the girl" a lot of the time.  Whether you think that's ok is a different story, but that comment is directed Kurt's character. 

 

But to be honest: I'm more disappointed in part of Glee's fandom, who apparently either have become so blasé about Glee's insults that they just shrug their shoulders now, or are more invested in their own fave and/or OTP that they don't care and even celebrate when another gay character gets kicked in the guts for 2 minutes.

 

Nobody here seem to be celebrating Kurt's take down.  I'm not anyway.  I think Kurt was an holier than thou ass and Santana was her usual vitriolic self.  I'm saying this is consistent with the show and Santana's character in the past.  There's nothing different in this particularly instance, and I think people are grasping at straws to make the case that there is.

[SNeaker]

I can remember a number of pointed Santana insults referencing Rachel's Jewishness ("Israeli Pippi Longstocking" or some such, among others), and speaking as a Jewish woman, I never found them offensive so much as hilarious and don't consider Santana anti-semitic for them. Sometimes you just gotta have a sense of humor about yourself, which I think both Kurt and Chris do. Those insults were pretty classic Santana and came off more like "Dude, don't mess with Santana, you know what you're gonna get" than her bullying him or being homophobic. Glee has used this kind of humor from the start; it has never changed and never will. I didn't enjoy it so much because I thought Kurt deserved a smackdown but because it was just a massively epic rant (and the longer it went on the more I laughed, just because the fact that she kept going and going made it even funnier) that for once was directed at someone who had actually provoked her. And her delivery wasn't even that nasty, nor did Kurt look hurt so much as annoyed.

Edited January 19, 2015 by SNeaker

[Camera One]

After watching Rachel and Kurt hanging out in the choir room all day, I'm struck by how I never realized there are no choir classes in that room. Neither of them are teachers, "coaches" or "sponsors" would be the accurate term as neither actually teach any classes (fingerprinting and a background check would be the minimum needed to do what they do if the school wanted to hire them). Will was always teaching in a regular room during the day.

Is there no choir teacher at all? How were they putting on a musical way back without any of these kids knowing about it? Is there a second, aptly-named choir room with an actual choir teacher?

I think Sue was right to use that space for something meaningful :)

 

I always assumed there was no choir offered at this school from the beginning.  If there had been, students who chose that class would have been first to sign up for the Glee Club.  It makes sense Sue would never have brought choir in during her reign.  One would have expected her to cancel band too since it's a fine arts, but maybe she needed it for athletic celebrations.  Technically, Rachel could hold Glee practice in any room without the need to displace a computer lab.  

Edited January 19, 2015 by Camera One

[Pink ranger]

I can think of tons of instances over the past 5 seasons that potentially offensive/ upsetting jokes have been made at the actors expense

Mecerdes and Unique inferred as being the same person-that all black people look alike

Chord having a song sung to him that compares his lips/mouth to a fish

Dot being used as a revolting imagination by teenage boys to " cool off" sexually.

Matthew receiving diatribes targeting his hair and chin

Cory told that he can't dance

Diana having a bland forgettable alto

The rant on Kurt is nothing new and IMO no worse than what has been done in the past. I mean what if Diana aspired for a singing career post Glee? would she have taken kindly to her current project directly attacking her singing talent? I don't even want to put myself in Dots shoes when she read that never been kissed script ykes!

Edited January 19, 2015 by Pink ranger

[Sara2009]

I can think of tons of instances over the past 5 seasons that potentially offensive/ upsetting jokes have been made at the actors expense

Mecerdes and Unique inferred as being the same person-may that all black people look alike

Chord having a song sung to him that compares

his lips/mouth to a fish

Dot being used as a revolting imagination by teenage boys to " cool off" sexually.

Matthew receiving diatribes targeting his hair

and chin

Cory told that he can't dance

Diana having a bland forgettable alto

The rant on Kurt is nothing new and IMO no

worse than what has been done in the past. I

mean what if Diana aspired for a singing career

post Glee? would she have taken kindly to her

current project directly attacking her singing

talent? I don't even want to put myself in Dots

shoes when she read that never been kissed

script ykes!

Dot mentioned in an interview that she found the " Never Been Kissed" stuff hilarious.

[Glorfindel]

No, it's not similar because the rant against Finn wasn't actually justified at all. She was just mad at him for...I don't even remember. Competing against the TroubleTones? Hating Finn just because she hated Finn? I will admit that Santana is my favorite character, and Finn was absolutely my least favorite, and I still didn't like the rant against Finn. Because it wasn't depicted as being funny or justified or deserving. The tone was that she clearly overstepped and it resulted in her being outed to the entire state.

According to Finn Santana was trying to distract the ND members with insults to get them "off the game". And don't forget that back then Santana still was a closeted lesbian who was "only mean because she was struggling with her sexuality". What's her excuse now?

It doesn't even matter, because that's not why I was comparing the 2 situations. I compared them because both times one bad thing was counteracted by another even worse bad thing: Santana insulting Finn <> Finn outing Santana, Kurt ruining Brittana's proposal moment <> Santana ripping into him where it hurt the most.

A similar situation was when Rachel and Santana had their fight and Rachel slapped Santana. There was no clear winner in all those fights, but it put people in the fandom very firmly into one corner (mostly the one their fave was in).

  

Whether you thought it was funny or not, that was the intention of the Kurt/Santana scene, given the music and Rachel's facial expressions, and Kurt's complete lack of emotion.

Becky insulting Quinn and Tina who tried to help her, and throwing that milkshake on the ground, was supposed to be funny too. Doesn't mean that it actually was funny, at least not to me.

A slushie in the face hasn't been funny since midway season 1, but the show still thinks it's hilarious. Heck, the show probably had the intention that the girls singing 'I Kissed a Girl' was the perfect song for Santana's outing, and I bet many people disagree on that too.

 

If people are so vulnerable that they feel "triggered" by watching a show like Glee, then maybe they shouldn't watch a show like Glee.

For God's sake, who said "triggered"? "Upset" is "triggered" now?

(And JFYI I only used the word "upset" because I couldn't find another word in the english language that came close to what I was trying to say: I'm not a native english speaker. I meant that many people were not happy about it, whether angry/sad/disappointed/betrayed/embarrassed: all that in one word.)

And here you go again trying to belittle and downplay people's reactions and comments on something just because you don't agree with them. Opinions are still opinions, and each one has just as much merit as the next one.

 

Plus I can't help but think that you're only doing this because it was your fave saying those things, while you're accusing the people you don't agree with of overreacting and being too sensitive because it affected their fave. Just saying.

And the ironic part about this is that I don't even care that it was Santana who said it: imo Santana was thrown under the bus in this scene alongside with Kurt, and their friendship. But the main issue I have with this rant is with the writers, and not just because it appeared to be directed at Chris, it crossed many lines imo, not just that one.

 

But I'm done with this now: I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree.

 

But it does seem to invalidate the idea that people find the same type of insult consistently offensive (something about a physical attribute one cannot change) regardless of who you direct it at. Darren can't change his stature. Lea can't change her looks. Very few people care about these insults.

Yes, and we've addressed that: it's not right but there have been so many little jibes in the show that indirectly insult the actor as well that we've gotten used to it. That's probably wrong too, but what some people are trying to say here that this time (and I'm sure a few other times before it too) the insults went too far and lasted too long to be 'funny'.

 

"Lady Hummel" is not an insult directed at Chris. Kurt's character is written as "one of the girl" a lot of the time. Whether you think that's ok is a different story, but that comment is directed Kurt's character.

Besides Kurt's effeminacy it also implies Kurt (and therefore Chris) has a delicate form and features for a guy (in earlier seasons though: Chris has buffed up since then). But there also has been "11-year old milkmaid", "porcelain", "gayface", "toothpick arms", and his teeth have already been mentioned in PUC.

 

Practically all actors have had their looks or other features ridiculed on the show, and I'm not argueing against that or trying to downplay those other instances. I just don't think it negates the arguments of people commenting on what was said to Kurt in this episode.

 

Nobody here seem to be celebrating Kurt's take down. I'm not anyway. I think Kurt was an holier than thou ass and Santana was her usual vitriolic self. I'm saying this is consistent with the show and Santana's character in the past. There's nothing different in this particularly instance, and I think people are grasping at straws to make the case that there is.

Well, some here are, or at least they found it funny and/or thought Kurt deserved it.

Outside of this forum: that rant has over 80.000 reblogs on tumblr, no kidding.

 

And again: it being consistent with the show =/= it not being hurtful and/or intentionally malicious.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Glorfindel

[ComfySweater]

Doesn't the show consistently refer to Blaine as a hobbit?  Nobody seems to care about that....

Darren made the hobbit jokes about himself before he was ever on Glee, and I think it's pervasive with his fans so it just seems like it's been on the show a lot.  I'm going to call that a situation where the actor did hand you the magical free pass to use that joke. I also don't think it was ever done particularly viciously. It's a pretty different situation in my book than an extended rant about things the actor has admitted he has been bullied over and been insecure about that also have some bad stereotyping implications built into them.

[dizzyizzy01]

It's a pretty different situation in my book than an extended rant about things the actor has admitted he has been bullied over and been insecure about that also have some bad stereotyping implications built into them.

 

 

But you're projecting your feelings about how Chris feels.  I'm sure Chris can separate himself from his character.  A lot of fans seems to have difficulty with that.

 

Well, some here are, or at least they found it funny and/or thought Kurt deserved it.

 

 

Well the delivery, Rachel's background expressions, and Kurt's expression were funny.  That I agree with.  Kurt deserved to be taken down a peg.  Santana went too far, but that's her MO.  

 

I just think the argument that the show is taking things too far in this instance as if something's suddenly changed is people seeing what they want to see.  This is glee's style.  If you didn't really like humor in this vein at least somewhat, it'd actually be pretty difficult to ever find Glee funny.

 

People are reaching so hard I'm surprised nobody's dislocated a shoulder.

[Ceeg]

For God's sake, who said "triggered"? "Upset" is "triggered" now?

(And JFYI I only used the word "upset" because I couldn't find another word in the english language that came close to what I was trying to say: I'm not a native english speaker. I meant that many people were not happy about it, whether angry/sad/disappointed/betrayed/embarrassed: all that in one word.)

And here you go again trying to belittle and downplay people's reactions and comments on something just because you don't agree with them. 

When I said "triggered" I wasn't referring to you specifically saying that. But I've seen tons of complaints about Santana triggering them, having to block Santana posts because they're so "triggered", how Santana could have made Kurt suicidal, etc etc. And those are people that I would call "vulnerable". But, I still stick to my original comment. If a person is so "vulnerable" that they cannot deal with this kind of stuff, then they should probably just stay away from television or film. Especially a television show whose bread and butter is personal attacks against all the characters.

 

Don't people say that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results? I feel like that applies to a good portion of people who watch Glee. At this point, after 6 years of this, complaining about Glee being offensive is about as effective as complaining about them doing musical numbers. It's just Glee. 

Edited January 19, 2015 by Ceeg

[fakeempress]

I don't get the reasoning that if people find something offensive, upsetting, or plain bad lazy writing, they can't complain or even discuss -- just because it will be ineffective. Nothing we say here can affect the show one way or another, neither complaints, nor praise, not any more even if you are a Nielsen viewer. People have opinions, and if they've hung on for 6 seasons with the show, these opinions come with some baggage. I also don't see anyone here "triggered" or "vulnerable", even the poster who had such drastic imo views on what Kurt did. These people are on twitter and tumblr but we aren't responsible for them, so maybe if you want to reach them with advice, this board wouldn't be the best place. 

 

I have never found Santana's rants funny or amusing, period. She gets vile and picks at things people cannot change (not only in this case with Kurt;) and turns them into mean bullying jabs. Six seasons in, that's what she still does, when she isn't the Season 1 antagonist any more, and her friends have bent backwards to help her a number of times, and she should be at another place in her life by now. I agree that the writers have done injustice to this character as well, by their inability to make her funny without sounding like a candidate for anger management help. 

Edited January 19, 2015 by fakeempress

[Agent Dark]

Heh, for a show that everyone seems to not care about anymore, it certainly is still able to get everyone up on their high-horses and proclaim their moral outrage (whether its over Kurt interrupting Santana's proposal or Santana's rant, whichever 'side' you are on). 

 

Here's what I took from the rant scene - it was the only genuinely funny part of the episode.  Everything from Santana seemingly endless stream-of-consciousness (something that I find inherently funny, like you have to wonder what thought processes lead up to those comments - does she just notice these things about people and store those thoughts for an opportune moment? lol) to Rachel's hilarious reactions (she was probably just glad it wasn't directed at her for a change) to the random passerby's in the background being all like 'wtf??' to Santana literally just stopping and walking away at the end.  It was a very well acted scene, especially on Naya's part and that makes all the difference in the world. 

 

IMO this show would be a million times better if it was just Santana and Sue ripping into everyone every episode. 

[Ceeg]

I don't get the reasoning that if people find something offensive, upsetting, or plain bad lazy writing, they can't complain or even discuss -- just because it will be ineffective. Nothing we say here can affect the show one way or another, neither complaints, nor praise, not any more even if you are a Nielsen viewer. People have opinions, and if they've hung on for 6 seasons with the show, these opinions come with some baggage. I also don't see anyone here "triggered" or "vulnerable", even the poster who had such drastic imo views on what Kurt did. These people are on twitter and tumblr but we aren't responsible for them, so maybe if you want to reach them with advice, this board wouldn't be the best place. 

I'm not trying to stifle discussion. I just think the pearl-clutching and cherry picking over what one finds offensive enough to have 7 pages of discussion over (and yes, calling Kurt fans "vulnerable"), is a bit much. Particularly when I believe if the exact same rant was aimed at Darren/Blaine, the resulting discussion would be drastically different. And also when it's implied that if you're someone who thought Santana's rant was actually funny, you're a bully or homophobic or whatever.

 

God, I can't believe I've gotten to a point in my life where I'm borderline defending Glee. How did this happen? I can't remember the last time I talked so much about this show.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Ceeg

[SNeaker]

Do you really think Kurt deserved being completely dehumanized for what he did this episode?

 

Certainly not, but I also don't think he was completely dehumanized, which is where I think some of this dissension is coming from. Those of us who enjoyed the rant just thought it was an epic, funny Santana rant and moved on. We weren't like "Yeah, take that, Kurt you suck, I hate you, I wish you would die." Which is why, as Ceeg said, some take issue with the implication that anyone who enjoyed it is a "bully or homophobic or whatever." Or that it's about who you do or don't ship or stan for, since I personally like Santana and Kurt about the same and don't care for Brittana.

 

I mean, the stuff she said wasn't that kind of pinpointed "twist the knife, get him right where it hurts" stuff that she used on Finn or Rachel in the past. It was too over the top to be that. I mean, "your strange obsession with old people that causes you to skulk around nursing homes like one of those cats that can smell cancer?" "Maybe he got tired of watching you drape yourself on every piano you happen past to entertain exactly no one with. Say some song that Judy Garland choked on her tongue in the middle of, or some sassy old Broadway standard made famous by dead alcoholic crump?" The dance move "where you pretend to twirl to invisible rainbow-colored ribbons attached to your hips" Lol, whut? I mean, that shit is funny because it's so ridiculous. These are Kurt's deepest darkest insecurities? I think not. I think Kurt is a big boy, and he can and has faced a lot worse than that.

 

It can't even feed into insecurity about Blaine because her entire premise is flawed seeing as Kurt is the one who broke off the engagement.

Edited January 19, 2015 by SNeaker

[SevenStars]

I'm not trying to stifle discussion. I just think the pearl-clutching and cherry picking over what one finds offensive enough to have 7 pages of discussion over (and yes, calling Kurt fans "vulnerable"), is a bit much.

 

Those 7 pages of discussion didn't happen only because people had a problem with the rant. If it was that, it would have been over and done with in probably 1 page. This long ass discussions occurred because people have a problem with those who had problem with the rant. 

[indeed]

Besides Kurt's effeminacy it also implies Kurt (and therefore Chris) has a delicate form and features for a guy (in earlier seasons though

Isn't that basically why he was named "Hummel" in the first place, because CC reminded TPTB of that famous line of delicate porcelain figurines? Since the very beginning they've been taking "pot shots" at his delicate form and features. That doesn't make it right, but it's certainly not surprising they're still doing it. Edited January 20, 2015 by indeed

[fakeempress]

I'm not trying to stifle discussion. I just think the pearl-clutching and cherry picking over what one finds offensive enough to have 7 pages of discussion over (and yes, calling Kurt fans "vulnerable"), is a bit much. Particularly when I believe if the exact same rant was aimed at Darren/Blaine, the resulting discussion would be drastically different. And also when it's implied that if you're someone who thought Santana's rant was actually funny, you're a bully or homophobic or whatever.

 

God, I can't believe I've gotten to a point in my life where I'm borderline defending Glee. How did this happen? I can't remember the last time I talked so much about this show.

The admin seems to like the traffic here :)

 

I take exception to your belief that the same type of rant using Darren would receive a drastically different response. I can't speak for others but I already said about myself, yet you choose to assume the opposite across the board. I suspect this belief is because some people here incl. myself aren't such fans and can take or leave his acting, singing, and his public persona. But as with the Ariana song, people may well react differently than expected.

 

I didn't notice if someone implied people who found the rant funny are themselves bullies and homophobes? It was certainly a complaint about the character, though, also from me, I think this is warranted. 

 

I didn't found the rant funny because I've tired of the Santana rant gag itself. There's nothing new there, it relies on the same old comedy, and stifles the character for me. But other posters did, and there is nothing I can say to that. It's what people like or don't like. I'd probably also find it just funny, if I was more general audience, the show was a pure sitcom, or Arrested Development-type where Santana and Lucille took on the world. But this show wants to have its cake and eat it about the bullying message. I found it very ironic that Santana gently told Becky, another bully, that she can't keep calling people names, at the same time having her casually drop "unibrow" and the rest of the one-off jabs (not even counting the rant here). I don't think though that Glee intended this irony to be there, but that in their minds, the writers wrote Santana as completely sympathetic from start to finish of the episode.

Edited January 20, 2015 by fakeempress

[Myrna123]

Isn't that basically why he was named "Hummel" in the first place, because CC reminded TPTB of that famous line of delicate porcelain figurines?

I think it was the figurines' rosy, round cheeks that led to the surname, not their fragility.

[indeed]

Yes, I read that, too, but other things have rosy cheeks, and "Hummel" can evoke other characteristics that I'm sure weren't lost on them. Although it did take until season 2 (I think) for Sue to out-and-out call him "Porcelain". Anyway, no point to that really...

Edited January 20, 2015 by indeed

[dizzyizzy01]

I didn't notice if someone implied people who found the rant funny are themselves bullies and homophobes?

 

It's not necessarily the majority, but there are a few people that seem to believe that it's absolutely terrible to have found Santana's rant funny and I'm not even one that felt this episode was really funny at all.

 

It's comments like this that make people feel like there's an implication that anyone who enjoyed that rant is homophobic:

 

But to be honest: I'm more disappointed in part of Glee's fandom, who apparently either have become so blasé about Glee's insults that they just shrug their shoulders now, or are more invested in their own fave and/or OTP that they don't care and even celebrate when another gay character gets kicked in the guts for 2 minutes.

 

 

 

I didn't like the rant because I felt it was too long and the joke of Santana's rants are a bit tired, but it was a well acted scene and I enjoyed that.  This overreach that the writer's crossed some unspeakable line is so bizarre to me.

Edited January 20, 2015 by dizzyizzy01

[fakeempress]

Yes, I read that, too, but other things have rosy cheeks, and "Hummel" can evoke other chacteristics that I'm sure weren't list on them. Although it did take until season 2 (I think) for Sue to out-and-out call him "Porcelain".

This I found funny, the scene in Furt where Sue allowed him to pick his nickname but wanted him to choose Tickle Me Doughface. 

[wayne67]

I'm amazed that people feel so passionate about these characters after all the character assassination that happens every 3rd episode or so that undermines their supposed friendships with another member of the group.

 

I would have found the rant funnier if half the insults weren't wild swings at viciousness. Gentrophile ? I had to google that word to understand an insult lobbed by a 'college drop out' to a 19? year old. Talk about an obscure insult.

 

That and Kurt dumped Blaine... Whatever his reasoning it wasn't because they were too young to get married... That would imply that they got married and realised they got married too young and it didn't work. They couldn't even function as live in boyfriends for long, marriage wasn't the problem; they were. I'm not a fan of Klaine.

Edited January 20, 2015 by wayne67

[tab19]

I didn't found the rant funny because I've tired of the Santana rant gag itself. There's nothing new there, it relies on the same old comedy, and stifles the character for me. But other posters did, and there is nothing I can say to that. It's what people like or don't like. I'd probably also find it just funny, if I was more general audience, the show was a pure sitcom, or Arrested Development-type where Santana and Lucille took on the world. But this show wants to have its cake and eat it about the bullying message. I found it very ironic that Santana gently told Becky, another bully, that she can't keep calling people names, at the same time having her casually drop "unibrow" and the rest of the one-off jabs (not even counting the rant here). I don't think though that Glee intended this irony to be there, but that in their minds, the writers wrote Santana as completely sympathetic from start to finish of the episode.

I hadn't thought about the irony, but I agree. As usual, the blame rests with the Glee writers, who can't handle the challenge of being both funny and serious.  Some shows can - not so much Glee.  

 

II would have found the rant funnier if half the insults weren't wild swings at viciousness. Gentrophile ? I had to google that word to understand an insult lobbed by a 'college drop out' to a 19? year old. Talk about an obscure insult.

One funny take on this I've seen is that Santana spends all of her spare time researching things to use as insults.  Hence the esoteric and elaborate rants.  :)

[wayne67]

One funny take on this I've seen is that Santana spends all of her spare time researching things to use as insults.  Hence the esoteric and elaborate rants.  :)

 

Does she have anything else to do ? I mean other than scissoring Britney does she have a job now?

 

Last I remember she was working as a waitress in New York. Then she was a understudy for Rachel until that blew up and then... I don't remember .

 

Though apparently Puck can just take a couple weeks off from the Army to hang out in highschool doing nothing relevant anyway.

 

These characters might as well be caricatures for all the depth their lives have over their actions.

[Agent Dark]

One funny take on this I've seen is that Santana spends all of her spare time researching things to use as insults.  Hence the esoteric and elaborate rants.  :)

That's certainly my view.  Like Santana seems to spend so much effort on keeping up her appearance of "I'm from Lima Heights, I aint afraid to cut a bitch" tough girl act, yet then she'll go use a reference to some obscure Broadway musical to insult Rachel with.  Like why would she even know that? haha.  Personally I think there's a huge nerd hiding under the facade that Santana likes to put up

These characters might as well be caricatures for all the depth their lives have over their actions.

That's all any of the characters on Glee have ever been.  They exist mainly as devices to sing covers of Showtunes/Pop music, and occasionally deliver whatever PSA the producers have decided is important for the kids of the nation to hear. 

[Ceeg]

One funny take on this I've seen is that Santana spends all of her spare time researching things to use as insults.  Hence the esoteric and elaborate rants.  :)

 

 Well, she had a little insult journal that she read from when Sam came back to McKinley in season 3. So I'm guessing she has that sort of thing for everyone.

 

Personally I think there's a huge nerd hiding under the facade that Santana likes to put up

 

She did admit to trolling Rizzoli and Isles Subtext Blogs, so yeah.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Ceeg