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Celebrating 25 Years Of The West Wing

Spoilers With Speculation

SueB

By SueB
in Supernatural

ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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PeterKahlke
PeterKahlke

NEXT ON SUPERNATURAL Sam and Dean search for the yellow-eyed thing that killed their mom.

devlin
devlin

I don’t care who JA is going to be playing. I could seriously watch this guy read the phone book and be completely enthralled. I am just looking forward to some powerhouse acting full of nuances by wh

gonzosgirrl
gonzosgirrl

So, so over it. You're a big boy - if you don't agree, put up or shut your judgey piehole.

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SueB

SueB

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13 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Very few of the titles this year seem to have anything to do with what actually happens in the episode.  (Or maybe I'm just missing the point.)  What the heck does Byzantium mean in this context?  Or Optimism?  Or Unhuman Nature?  So I have no faith in deeper meanings of titles, though they might be superficial (The Spear, eg, *should* have something to do with the spear) :) 

About Prophet and Loss...didn't they (Chuck? Someone?) overturn Metatron's ban on new prophets (or how did we get Donatello?)  And (I can't remember but seem to think he got killed?) then shouldn't there be another prophet activated?  (Remember Cas used to know the whole list of potential prophets?  And Crowley didn't kill all of them...)

Apparently "Byzantium" was a reference to W.B. Yeats' poem "Sailing to Byzantium".  Several people picked up on it pre-airing as Meredith Glynn jokes about needing a Yeats gif and twitterverse started wailing that Jack was going to die. I wrote up a bit of the meaning in the episode thread (from my limited understanding).

So now I have to go back and look at ALL the titles and see if we have a bigger story point going on with them.  Because this last episode sure did.    

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ILoveReading

ILoveReading

 This is the afternoon panel.  Someone asked what their lives would have been like if John had died instead of Mary.  Jared makes a joke that maybe we would see it, and Jensen's reaction is interesting.  It almost seemed like he was saying 'shut up".  It makes me wonder if that is a spoiler.  Its about 25 minutes in.

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

1 hour ago, SueB said:
 

 

and pics:

https://stvplus.com/show/154/Supernatural#episodes

SN1409b_0409r_FULL.jpg

Looks like they get Dark Kaia's spear.

The sneak peak shows them arriving at her location and the promo pictures show them confronting her. 

Given the episode summary of "both brothers go after a weapon each" and the fact that Jared didn`t shoot a couple days for the episode whereas Jensen and Misha did, it seems clear that those are the scenes. So maybe Sam just arrives for the final confrontation with his weapon a la when Cas came in with some ingredient for the spell last year, we just didn`t see how he got it. 

The sneak peek also unfortunately sets Dean up for failure when he says he wants to be the one to kill Michael. It`s clear that it can`t happen in the mid-Season Finale but now he won`t get it, period. 

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Myrelle

Myrelle

I think there's a little too much in the way of genuine thought process going on in the way they answered that specific question and Jensen's own brand of humor was what the tale end of that bit was about(IMO).

But, it IS possible that JDM will make an appearance in "another universe" and that could have had something the do with the shushing. 

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

(edited)

If that happened as a "what if it all changed" story, IMO it would be the one to do for an episode like the 300th. Don`t know, things seem to have changed around somewhat from those early Comic Con rumors of "it`s about how the people of Lebanon see them" as if that was the whole hook for the episode. Now it`s "time travel" and "very special guest star". The how-Lebanon-sees-them might have been downgraded to just a minor element of the episode. Or comedy bits where they have their usual case, just in Lebanon this time, and the camera just focuses on the reactions of random civilians going "what the hell?" 

I doubt it`s gonna end up like Buffy`s The Prom because that paid off other students noticing how Buffy saved the day often enough. But all things happened in this one town there. So far, they`ve never really worked a high profile case in Lebanon. 

Watching the bit from the Con, Ididn`t get the impression the question hit spoiler territory, though. They usually don`t have great poker faces when it comes to that. They won`t tell but they have tells.   

Edited by Aeryn13
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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

Okay, it was kinda speculated on when they were talking about a big time fan fave guest star. Guess this is where the time travel comes in because obviously he is not gonna stay around. Hopefully, they will handle the character better than the IceQueen. And I hope she doesn`t interact with him. Give him some scenes with the brothers or maybe one with each alone and one with both of them together.

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ILoveReading

ILoveReading

1 minute ago, Casseiopeia said:

Wow!  Doesn't that seem like an announcement that should have been a surprise?  Who's writing the 300th?  Please don't say Dabb Please don't say Dabb Please don't say Dabb....

Dabb and Glynn with the added bonus of Singer directing.

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

(edited)
Quote

Who's writing the 300th?  Please don't say Dabb Please don't say Dabb Please don't say Dabb....

Ummm...

Meredith Glynn co-writes apparently.

Quote

with the added bonus of Singer directing.

Yikes. Didn`t think of that.

Edited by Aeryn13
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Casseiopeia

Casseiopeia

(edited)
5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Dabb and Glynn with the added bonus of Singer directing.

Okay.  Oh well.  What are the chances that either one rewatched the last 3 episodes of S1 and S2E1.

Edited by Casseiopeia
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BoxManLocke

BoxManLocke

(edited)

I'm pretty neutral about this news.

 

We have no idea what this episode will be like. It was supposed to be about the people of Lebanon, then there's stuff about time travel ? A new version of Cass, then John ? It makes no sense whatsoever so far.

 

However, we know who's writing, and we know Dabb's obsession with "loose ends", and every character under the sun that's not called Sam or Dean. If this was a Robbie Thompson ep I'd be all over it, but I've got no proof Showrunner!Dabb and Glynn get what the show is about.

 

So I'll be going with a pretty skeptical approach.

Edited by BoxManLocke
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SueB

SueB

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I suspect the details of the 300 are going to be kept vague. 

What we know:

-It takes place in Lebanon and unless it’s changed since SDCC, it’ll be involving the locals

-Misha spoiled time travel and that he’s in this one  

- JDM is in it. 

 

This is could be some past visit to John, although the age of JDM undermines that.   It could be an AU with old John.  It could be ghost John.

Having John in present day is not remotely guaranteed.   

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sarthaz

sarthaz

7 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

The Trio from Hell. The Unholy Trinity.

On one hand, I want to say, "At least it's not BuckLeming." But I think I'm at the point where I accept that no matter how terrible they are as writers, Dabb is the worst thing to happen to this show. He will fuck this up, and it will send me into a depressive tailspin from which I may never recover. I'm'a need some 1st Season SPN stat.

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Pondlass1

Pondlass1

12 hours ago, Myrelle said:

We also know that Sam/JP and Mary/Samantha Smith will have scenes with John/JDM.

It will be a scene where John and Sam are  reminding Mother that she has another son... his name is Dean. :-(

I wish they'd kept Mother out of this episode.  And how will they explain that John has aged while Mother stayed the same (well, kind of).  This episode could be so freaking awesome, but......

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Casseiopeia

Casseiopeia

32 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

It will be a scene where John and Sam are  reminding Mother that she has another son... his name is Dean. :-(

I wish they'd kept Mother out of this episode.  And how will they explain that John has aged while Mother stayed the same (well, kind of).  This episode could be so freaking awesome, but......

Best case scenario?  John returns grabs Mary and books back to heaven.  Mistake corrected!

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PAForrest

PAForrest

47 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

It will be a scene where John and Sam are  reminding Mother that she has another son... his name is Dean. :-(

Except that bitchy ice queen Mary who at best ignores, at worst hates, Dean IS Dabb's creation. And since he's writing this episode and because he's no fan of Dean himself - which is probably partly why Mary isn't either - that fantasy scenario would never happen.

I don't know how to feel about this news, especially given how badly Dabb destroyed Mary. JDM is a better actor than SS - he's like Jensen and can pull up bad writing, so John may get out of this episode unscathed, or no worse off than his reputation is, or rather was before bitchy ice queen Mary arrived on the scene.

Of course I'm concerned that Dabb is going to waste precious screen time on Mary and John, and the fact that no one has yet even mentioned whether Dean has any interaction with John, like Sam does. Hopefully someone will bother to ask Jensen something about JDM's return in the press leading up to this episode, and we'll get some insight as to what kind of interaction, if any, Dean has with John in the episode.

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S Cook Productions

S Cook Productions

10 hours ago, Jakes said:

Greatest news--I totally LOVE it!  My man John Winchester--been waiting for this for many years!    

I with Jakes and Sue B. I’m totally excited about the second half of this season. Tonight’s ep was great (IMO) and left me excited for more and to see where it goes. I also like that they didn’t just ignore the deal Cas made with the Empty. They kept bringing it up, so I wonder if and how it will play in? Maybe the end of this season? Maybe next season when they’re all happy on a beach somewhere and then poof?! 

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BabySpinach

BabySpinach

I find it interesting that Michael has changed back into his old clothes in the promo. Couldn't go long without dressing up his perfect vessel again? What a fashionista, with priorities like those!

There's no way that they got the cuffs on him against his will. I feel like Michael, now that he's activated his monster army, is just sitting back and letting Sam and Cas do what they want because he knows it's futile. He was grinning from ear to ear with those electrodes on his head. He's probably having fun watching them all scramble desperately, and certainly doesn't seem like he's being held against his will. 

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

(edited)

Judging by the promo, I`d say the fisticuffs in the bar are in Dean`s mindscape. Because you can see Dean - in Dean clothes - stomping someone really hard. The figure is too dark and out of frame but it might be someone in a suit aka Michael. You also see bloodied Cas in that same bar and Sam fighting against Michael. 

Narrative 101 would have the chain of events go: Michael is "captured" early on, they take him to the bunker and the main part of the episode is in Dean`s mind. Where "nihilism" rules aka it`s all dark. They encounter Michael and fight him but get smacked around. Then the real Dean comes in and curb-stomps Michael, casting him out. 

Did they do something similar with Gadreel? Absolutely. The only difference is that Crowley went into Sam`s mind. But I don`t really care. This might be an episode where at least the main plot is focused on "finding" Dean, not playing Chief, not baby Jack (though I`m wary of his outstretched hand as if he is using his powers), not Nickifer and not random guest star nr.376. We`ll see. 

Oh, and Michael never leaves that room. I bet he snaps himself into a suit but then lets himself be taken. Everyone else is still wearing the same clothes, Cas is still bloodied and the background is the same. So he doesn`t go out and gets recaptured. That happens right away - somehow. Now maybe he wants them to take him back to bunker or doesn`t mind being among them because he thinks they have no play anyway.  

Edited by Aeryn13
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catrox14

catrox14

7 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

There's no way that they got the cuffs on him against his will. I feel like Michael, now that he's activated his monster army, is just sitting back and letting Sam and Cas do what they want because he knows it's futile. He was grinning from ear to ear with those electrodes on his head. He's probably having fun watching them all scramble desperately, and certainly doesn't seem like he's being held against his will. 

I think he knows exactly what he's doing. I think he wants Sam and Cas in Dean's mind to trap them. If he already has his minions killing Kansas City, distracting Sam and Cas this way keeps all of TFW tied up.

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tessathereaper

tessathereaper

(edited)
On 12/12/2018 at 6:39 PM, Aeryn13 said:

Sam will her closure with him, Jared spoiled that already. 

At this point it is unclear if Jensen has scenes with him at all.

And if Dean is around I'm sure we'll have John praising "leader Sam" to the skies(I still can't over the writers expect everyone to buy it, anyone can be a "leader" if they turn everyone else into "yes men" something Dean sure as hell never had, which only went to show Dean's true and natural leadership ability) and virtually ignoring Dean or saying some pat phrase about something.

 

Otherwise I'm of mixed feelings regarding this - on the one hand I really like JDM but I also really kind of hate John, he was an abusive father - what he did to them, what he did to Dean specifically is abuse, plain and simple and I feel like they'll ignore it or pussyfoot around it or given their MO, somehow blame Dean himself for the abuse he suffered at the hands of his father and it was really for his own good.

Edited by tessathereaper
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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

(edited)

In the promo there is this shot of Jack with an outstretched hand and in the background you see Sam at the table, with the electrodes on him. So this is while he and Cas are still inside Dean`s mind. Now there seems to be an attack coming at them so either Michael`s monsters have come into the bunker or stupid Kaia!Sue is there to whine about her spear. Now IF Jack randomely gets power blast back, maybe he does open a portal and it sucks them both into the Bad Place world. This would give them an explanation for the character being absent for a bit. I`m not sure but I don`t think Alex Calvert has shot anything since ep 10.

Now the monsters is more likely. Or possibly just Garth since they sure brought him with them to the bunker. He is probably still attack dog and goes after them.    

 

edit: Re-checked the promo and slowed it down, yup, some of Michael`s monsters are there, attacking.

Edited by Aeryn13
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gonzosgirrl

gonzosgirrl

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I think he knows exactly what he's doing. I think he wants Sam and Cas in Dean's mind to trap them. If he already has his minions killing Kansas City, distracting Sam and Cas this way keeps all of TFW tied up.

I know this is SPN and all, and we've had the same questions with Lucifer and even Crowley, but there is just no logical reason apart from hubris for Michael not to wipe Sam and Cas off the board now. I can maybe see why he'd want to persuade Jack over to his side, but leaving the two people who will hunt him forever as long as he has Dean, standing, is just plain stupid.

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SueB

SueB

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(edited)

Clearly cuffed:
9OS65M4.jpg

 

Looking at the upcoming titles:
S14E10 - Nihilism
S14E11 - Damaged Goods
S14E12 - Prophet and Loss

"Nihilism" would appear to be Michael's attitude.  
"Damaged Goods" - Dean's state of being
"Prophet and Loss" - The return of Donatello.  Maybe they can fix him and he can read Kevin's scribbles and they can get Michael out again. 

Edited by SueB
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gonzosgirrl

gonzosgirrl

(edited)

I'm confused. In the promo for the next ep, Micheal!Dean is cuffed and in his new/old duds. 

Tumbr post of scene gifs

Sam is in the same clothes and Cas's face is still bloody.

(Really terrible quality cap of the end scene of 12x09)Screenshot_20181216-123739_Instagram.jpg

Does this mean they don't even get out of the penthouse before they subdue/cuff Michael? JFC. 

Edited by gonzosgirrl
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catrox14

catrox14

12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm confused. In the promo for the next ep, Micheal!Dean is cuffed and in his new/old duds. 

Tumbr post of scene gifs

Sam is in the same clothes and Cas's face is still bloody.

(Really terrible quality cap of the end scene of 12x09)Screenshot_20181216-123739_Instagram.jpg

Does this mean they don't even get out of the penthouse before they subdue/cuff Michael? JFC. 

It has to be that Michael gives himself up. He could have smited them in an instant. The other option is that maybe Dean is fighting Michael and helping to get him cuffed.

Now thinking back to demon Dean, he still escaped because the more he became de demoned he could slip the demon trap. So let's hope Michael is at least as smart as Demon Dean. Also, they have to be special archangel cuffs they pulled out of their ass. If it's just regular cuffs then I'm calling shenanigans because even the cuffs on Lucifer, he got free.

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

Quote

It has to be that Michael gives himself up. He could have smited them in an instant. The other option is that maybe Dean is fighting Michael and helping to get him cuffed.

The point of the episode is to find Dean and get him to fight again, though, so narratively, he really can`t in the beginning of the episode. 

I hope they don`t pull any ludicrous stunt on how they somehow "luckily" slap those cuffs on Michael against his will - that would be 100 times more stupid than with DemonDean - but I`m not sure why Michael gives himself up either. For shits and giggles? To play games? He knows about the cuffs because Dean did so does he stretch out his hands, smile and say "put them on me"? 

That is a very iffy part.   

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catrox14

catrox14

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

The point of the episode is to find Dean and get him to fight again, though, so narratively, he really can`t in the beginning of the episode. 

I hope they don`t pull any ludicrous stunt on how they somehow "luckily" slap those cuffs on Michael against his will - that would be 100 times more stupid than with DemonDean - but I`m not sure why Michael gives himself up either. For shits and giggles? To play games? He knows about the cuffs because Dean did so does he stretch out his hands, smile and say "put them on me"? 

That is a very iffy part.   

Michael is able to read minds so maybe he wants them inside Dean's head so he can get to the others minds and cause more trouble. Maybe he wants them to all see the worst of each other in their minds. If he can break up TFW he stands a better chance of winning.

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ahrtee

ahrtee

6 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

The point of the episode is to find Dean and get him to fight again, though, so narratively, he really can`t in the beginning of the episode. 

I hope they don`t pull any ludicrous stunt on how they somehow "luckily" slap those cuffs on Michael against his will - that would be 100 times more stupid than with DemonDean - but I`m not sure why Michael gives himself up either. For shits and giggles? To play games? He knows about the cuffs because Dean did so does he stretch out his hands, smile and say "put them on me"? 

That is a very iffy part.   

Maybe he was distracted while changing clothes. :) or :( 

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BabySpinach

BabySpinach

(edited)

9OS65M4.jpg&key=b97acb3b991bee6c4e26afde

With the way Michael is holding out his hands, I strongly believe that he let them put the cuffs on. And if he'd been restrained by force, I feel like Sam and/or Cas would be grabbing onto him rather than standing several steps back.

It'd also be ludicrous if they actually overpower Michael!Dean after regular Michael took them down with no effort. Only makes sense if Dean briefly hinders him from inside, proving that he's far from "gone" or "broken," hence the others going into his head to find him later on. Whatever the answer is, it's most likely not the combined strength of two humans and a regular angel that got the better of Michael!Dean.

Edited by BabySpinach
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ILoveReading

ILoveReading

3 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

It'd also be ludicrous if they actually overpower Michael!Dean after regular Michael took them down with no effort. Only makes sense if Dean briefly hinders Michael from inside, proving that he's far from "gone" or "broken," hence the others going into his head to find him later on. Whatever the answer is, it's mostly likely not the combined strength of two humans and a regular angel that got the better of Michael!Dean.

Maybe Sam stomped his foot and yelled boo. 

The real question is why are they dumb enough to bring Michael back to the bunker. 

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devlin

devlin

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Maybe Sam stomped his foot and yelled boo. 

The real question is why are they dumb enough to bring Michael back to the bunker. 

I am going with nostril flaring while yelling at Michael to put the cuffs on while Michael meekly does so

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BoxManLocke

BoxManLocke

It'd be absolutely hilarious if we find out Sam had a contengency plan all along and manages to capture Michael!Dean before the opening credits.

Wouldn't even be that surprised, they don't mind scrubbing off their cliffhangers quickly.

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ahrtee

ahrtee

(edited)
32 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

It'd be absolutely hilarious if we find out Sam had a contengency plan all along and manages to capture Michael!Dean before the opening credits.

Wouldn't even be that surprised, they don't mind scrubbing off their cliffhangers quickly.

I'm pretty sure he'll be captured pre-credits.  The pictures show everyone in pretty much the same location (and positions) as the end of the last ep.  The only difference is Michael's clothes (and cuffs).

I know I wasn't listening all that hard, but when they were planning to go after Michael, didn't Sam (I think) say something about "getting the cuffs ready"?  It was when they were discussing "magic egg?  On the way.  Spear?  We'll get it.  Cuffs? ..." 

Maybe I was hallucinating.  Haven't rewatched to check.  

Edited by ahrtee
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