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SueB

By SueB
in Supernatural

ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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PeterKahlke
PeterKahlke

NEXT ON SUPERNATURAL Sam and Dean search for the yellow-eyed thing that killed their mom.

devlin
devlin

I don’t care who JA is going to be playing. I could seriously watch this guy read the phone book and be completely enthralled. I am just looking forward to some powerhouse acting full of nuances by wh

gonzosgirrl
gonzosgirrl

So, so over it. You're a big boy - if you don't agree, put up or shut your judgey piehole.

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gonzosgirrl

gonzosgirrl

(edited)
39 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This was my thought as soon as he said 'you'. The whole idea of him hiding out, biding time, is ridiculous on its face. But if he is going to do it, hiding in Dean makes the most sense. The fact that Dean is 'protected' seals the deal. My guess is that he wasn't protected from the werepires in The Scar can be explained by saying he was never in mortal danger, so Michael didn't blow his cover. I guess if TMNS didn't arrive in the nick of time, he would have overpowered the monster that was killing Dean. But the Djinn was going to, or did, see inside Dean,  so he rebuffed him, then killed him. ETA, they made a point of Dean confronting him alone.

This way Michael gets all the intel and can do whatever it is he's doing. Suppressing Dean is canonical- Gadreel dud it with Sam. It would also explain Dean's odd expression/reaction in the woods before they saw TMNS in The Scar

 

Quoting myself here just to add, this would also fit with Dabb's ComicCon 'joke' that Dean was never coming back. 

Also, it would fit with Mint Condition since it was a spirit,  not a monster. 

Edited by gonzosgirrl
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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

I`m not sure Michael is still there. Why then was there an immediate Dabb-interview on how he was totally gone? Keeping it vague would have been in the show`s best interest so the answer to any such question would be "this is certainly a mystery that we`re going to unpack". 

On the other hand, obviously Bucklemming and Dabb don`t know what the other side is doing so they sprouted stuff like "semi-possession" and "antibodies against evil". That leads me to believe that Michael did something to Dean, like giving him a secret upgrade too.     

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Casseiopeia

Casseiopeia

6 minutes ago, SueB said:

I think he's left some grace behind.  Not necessarily his sentience.  Just some grace to keep the door open.  Maybe the Djinn felt the grace and thought it was Michael.  IDK.  I just know it's a meaty mystery in my book.  

Why would the Djinn be afraid of Michael?  Michael gave him super powers.  Maybe he felt/sensed something else in Dean.  Dean has some pretty powerful aly's in the universe.  Chuck, Amara and Death all told Dean he was important...too important to die according to Billie/Death.  I have a feeling that there is something about Dean that made Michael exit stage left and it wasn't Kaia's spear.  At least I hope so.  I hope it isn't that Dean is just bait for some nefarious plot.

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SueB

SueB

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Just now, Casseiopeia said:

Why would the Djinn be afraid of Michael?  Michael gave him super powers.  Maybe he felt/sensed something else in Dean.  Dean has some pretty powerful aly's in the universe.  Chuck, Amara and Death all told Dean he was important...too important to die according to Billie/Death.  I have a feeling that there is something about Dean that made Michael exit stage left and it wasn't Kaia's spear.  At least I hope so.  I hope it isn't that Dean is just bait for some nefarious plot.

Dean is the firewall between good and evil.  -- per Chuck.  He added Sam to that but I honestly think Dean is Chuck's agent in Chuck's mind.  "They have you.  And Sam."  That's twice he "and Sam'd".

But what the hell the Djinn saw is not yet known IMO.  I don't see much advantage to Michael "hiding".  Maybe he gave away too much grace and is recharging... but other than that, I think he's like "meh" about the rest of the hunters being much of a threat.  He'll let the minions take those guys out.

But it's like Lucifer and the demons, Michael will turn on them in a heartbeat.  I DO think having suped-up monsters take out the hunters is a smart way to go.  It's like the slow-boiling frog.  The hunters won't realize how much they are decimated until they are too late to make a viable opposition.  About the ONLY thing that seems able to hurt Michael is magic.  And hunters will use that if need be.  But hunters are NOT likely to go to the government and give them "the talk".  So they'll end up severely limited in manpower.

Perhaps that was one of the reasons Bobby's backstory was provided.  Bobby appeared to have served in the military at some point.  When the Angel War came, he was given a leadership position not just because of his prior service but because he was a hunter.  And the hunters DID manage to thwart Michael in Apocalypse World.  Michael became the highest celestial being over a ball of dirt.  He doesn't want that.  So, taking out the hunters seems like a reasonable strategy.

But again, he had access to all of Dean's memories.  I'm not sure how much intel he really needs.  And wouldn't a couple of weeks do the job if he was after some knowledge?

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Res

Res

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Quoting myself here just to add, this would also fit with Dabb's ComicCon 'joke' that Dean was never coming back. 

Also, it would fit with Mint Condition since it was a spirit,  not a monster. 

I would so love this to be true but am not going to believe it with these writers. I'd rather be surprised than severely disappointed yet again.

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Myrelle

Myrelle

(edited)
3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I`m not sure Michael is still there. Why then was there an immediate Dabb-interview on how he was totally gone? Keeping it vague would have been in the show`s best interest so the answer to any such question would be "this is certainly a mystery that we`re going to unpack". 

On the other hand, obviously Bucklemming and Dabb don`t know what the other side is doing so they sprouted stuff like "semi-possession" and "antibodies against evil". That leads me to believe that Michael did something to Dean, like giving him a secret upgrade too.     

At this point, I can't believe that Dabb was bold enough to buck the vocal minority on twitter either. Or at least not so blatantly, but I DO think that there presently IS still something Michael-related going on with Dean, and as was mentioned, I think Dabb alluded to it in that one interview when he said something about getting rid of Michael by ep. 7 not being the end game of the Michael storyline.

But the big question in the Dean fandom remains what it's always been, that being Will Dean still be at the center of that storyline as the Michael Sword and as he should have been if we had been given anything even approaching a genuine look at that specific designation as a part of that storyline for the character this season?

Still here waiting for the answer to that question, writers....

Edited by Myrelle
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BabySpinach

BabySpinach

17 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Did the djinn see something? Or was he surprised his touch didn’t seem to have its usual effect?

Hmmmmm...  interesting.  ??

I think it's significant that even after he saw whatever it was in Dean's head, he still talked to Dean as Dean and gloated about the traps that Michael left for hunters. If Michael was hiding in Dean, I guess he must have ordered the djinn to shut the hell up and just play along? The other option is that Michael isn't in Dean at all, and he instead left some kind of protection on his favorite vessel. Those are the two most likely scenarios for me.

I still don't think it was the nightmares themselves, because I believe there would have been additional clarification if that were the case. I feel as if Dean would have commented on how disturbing his own nightmares were before bashing in the djinn's head, just to resolve the ambiguity. And his deepest fears weren't an established aspect of the episode; the episode's main story was centered around Michael's dastardly plans. 

It's also kind of weird that Dean's immunity wasn't brought up at all at the end, as if the writers just wanted us to kind of forget about it until a big reveal in the future. But usually, if there's something being hidden, we have a character asking the question and getting an unsatisfactory and clearly wrong answer (ie. 11.11), just to keep it in the viewer's heads. Regardless, it's really fun to speculate! I admittedly have a soft spot for Dean being immune to supernatural influences (Famine, Amara's smoke, Rowena's magic vs. the MoC).

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catrox14

catrox14

5 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

 The other option is that Michael isn't in Dean at all, and he instead left some kind of protection on his favorite vessel. Those are the two most likely scenarios for me.

Or he showed him his "True Face" and it scared him into shutting up about seeing him, and continuing to play the "game" he thought was being played earlier.

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SueB

SueB

  • Author
8 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

I think it's significant that even after he saw whatever it was in Dean's head, he still talked to Dean as Dean and gloated about the traps that Michael left for hunters. If Michael was hiding in Dean, I guess he must have ordered the djinn to shut the hell up and just play along? The other option is that Michael isn't in Dean at all, and he instead left some kind of protection on his favorite vessel. Those are the two most likely scenarios for me.

I still don't think it was the nightmares themselves, because I believe there would have been additional clarification if that were the case. I feel as if Dean would have commented on how disturbing his own nightmares were before bashing in the djinn's head, just to resolve the ambiguity. And his deepest fears weren't an established aspect of the episode; the episode's main story was centered around Michael's dastardly plans. 

It's also kind of weird that Dean's immunity wasn't brought up at all at the end, as if the writers just wanted us to kind of forget about it until a big reveal in the future. But usually, if there's something being hidden, we have a character asking the question and getting an unsatisfactory and clearly wrong answer (ie. 11.11), just to keep it in the viewer's heads. Regardless, it's really fun to speculate! I admittedly have a soft spot for Dean being immune to supernatural influences (Famine, Amara's smoke, Rowena's magic vs. the MoC).

This is what caused me to think Michael is not still sentient within Dean.  And there's no audience for the Djinn to 'play along for' (except Dean) but the Djinn was being killed .... his give a shit for pretense would be low IMO.  In fact, spitting out revenge was what he had in mind.  

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ILoveReading

ILoveReading

I personally think we're seeing Dean.  If (big if) Michael never actually left then I think he gave Dean control back and is just lying dormant, like Gadreel did and he's gathering intel. 

I wonder if the Djinn saw Michael's plan for hunters.  We know he's laying traps.   With all the AU hunters in the bunker, and and having them all in one place Michael's plan is to talk them all, or as many as he can get in one shot.   What if Dean himself is a trap, a literal ticking time bomb. 

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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

8 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

What if Dean himself is a trap, a literal ticking time bomb. 

Then that would explain why the hunters all still have to be in the bunker and listening to Sam. All the better to have them in position to make maximum crushing emotional impact if Michael decides to reemerge and take them all out. Sure he could've taken them out earlier, but Michael has time, and how much worse and emotionally crushing would it be for Sam to devote all of this time and energy and getting to know them only for it all to go boom! ?

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catrox14

catrox14

15 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

What if Dean himself is a trap, a literal ticking time bomb. 

I will be floored if the show actually does it. That said, that has been my hope for awhile now.  The problem for me, is that they need to let us in on Michael's plan for it to have tension.  Just give us one scene where Michael shows himself and then disappears so now we can root for Sam, Cas and Jack to figure it out before something bad happens to Dean and the rest of them.  I personally think it was shown when Dean beat down the Djinn.. but that's just me.

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ILoveReading

ILoveReading

15 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Then that would explain why the hunters all still have to be in the bunker and listening to Sam. All the better to have them in position to make maximum crushing emotional impact if Michael decides to reemerge and take them all out. Sure he could've taken them out earlier, but Michael has time, and how much worse and emotionally crushing would it be for Sam to devote all of this time and energy and getting to know them only for it all to go boom! ?

This wouldn't be Sam's fault. He would have no way of knowing.  We really don't see Sam getting to know them or spending time with them.   He doesn't really seem that attached to them.   He tells them what to do and sends them on their way.  Even last ep it was clearly Dean who was checking up on Maggie to make sure she was okay.  He certainly doesn't seem to be letting them help him.   Does he even know them outside their names?

I doubt the show will do this, but if Dean takes out all the other AU hunters, I would think Sam's primary concern should be crushed about losing his brother rather than all those people he barely knows.

Even if Dean is a bomb it doesn't mean it would go off and kill everyone.  I'm sure the show would have Sam stop it in time. 

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fishpan

fishpan

(edited)
12 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I doubt the show will do this, but if Dean takes out all the other AU hunters, I would think Sam's primary concern should be crushed about losing his brother rather than all those people he barely knows.

That would be to me be interesting if they did go that Dean is still housing a dormant Michael or if Michael is still close enough to protect Dean while still watching and waiting to spring some trap.  

But I think it would take more balls for the show to go down the line to have Michael actually changed his mind about whatever he is doing because Sam, Jack and Cas prove to him that Dean is as important to them as they are to Dean by actually being willing to fight and kill the nameless hoards in the bunker to protect Dean.

Edited by fishpan
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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

16 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This wouldn't be Sam's fault. He would have no way of knowing.

I agree. I wasn't implying that. I was just saying that that would certainly be a plot reason why the writers would want all of the AU people still in the bunker rather than out on their own. And making them hunters would support the war against hunters idea by Michael...

11 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I would think Sam's primary concern should be crushed about losing his brother rather than all those people he barely knows.

I wouldn't necessarily think Dean would get hurt if Michael made sure he wouldn't. The point wouldn't be to hurt his vessel, but to emotionally damage / crush Sam so that if Michael wanted to take Dean over again (if he never left) or use Sam as a crushed pawn to make Dean say yes, again (if he did really leave) - let me back in or I kill Sam, too - an emotionally devastated and/or wounded Sam would be less likely to fight back to stop it or tell Dean not to do it.

I'm saying from a story perspective, this would be a reason why all of these people are still in the bunker besides just the "Sam is an awesome leader" angle (when originally they were out of the bunker). And the show does sometimes like it's irony and or "here's a hard lesson" bent. And Sam losing all the people he was leading would be one of those hard lessons the show seems to enjoy giving.

12 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Even if Dean is a bomb it doesn't mean it would go off and kill everyone.  I'm sure the show would have Sam stop it in time. 

I wish I could be more optimistic, but I've had too many seasons of Sam getting burned somehow. Even with all of this "Sam is a good leader" stuff, I'm just sitting here waiting for it to be a set up for it all to come crashing down.

I mean the story as it is already isn't a positive for Sam himself really. Am I supposed to be happy for leader Sam, because he doesn't seem all that happy to me?

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juppschmitz

juppschmitz

40 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I personally think it was shown when Dean beat down the Djinn.. but that's just me.

Not just you. When Dean said "I don't have a knife dipped in lamb's blood" his inflection was very much like the condescendingly amused way Michael used. But that may very well be overinterpered, or Michael residue on Jensen's part. Would be cool though.

It would also make sense for Michael to want to kill off all the AU resistance fighters just out of spite.

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BoxManLocke

BoxManLocke

(edited)
2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Then that would explain why the hunters all still have to be in the bunker and listening to Sam. All the better to have them in position to make maximum crushing emotional impact if Michael decides to reemerge and take them all out.

 

You mean gleeful celebration, right ?

 

Anyway, I agree. I'm just waiting for the bloodbath, whether it comes from Michael himself or something else. There's a reason they won't introduce a single new character from that group and let Bobby/Charlie represent them. They're dead carcasses walking. Main problem is that the Sam/Dean angst that follows will have zero emotional impact on me. Why should I care, writers gave me no reason to.

Edited by BoxManLocke
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gonzosgirrl

gonzosgirrl

I keep going back to Dabb's 'joke' that Dean was never coming back. If he had access to all of Dean's experiences, then it's at lease plausible that he could know enough to impersonate Dean. What tests did they do to determine Dean was really Dean? Nothing, as far as I can recall. As for Cas 'probing' Dean's brain, well, we all know that Cas's powers and abilities wax and wane as needs must. I do think that it's Dean we're seeing though, but I won't be surprised if Michael is still in there. Main reason being, he needs some kind of meatsuit - if not Dean, then who? I doubt he's just off being a wavelength of celestial intent. Somebody would've had to say yes, and who is going to do that?

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Myrelle

Myrelle

(edited)
On ‎11‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 11:15 PM, BabySpinach said:

It's also kind of weird that Dean's immunity wasn't brought up at all at the end, as if the writers just wanted us to kind of forget about it until a big reveal in the future. But usually, if there's something being hidden, we have a character asking the question and getting an unsatisfactory and clearly wrong answer (ie. 11.11), just to keep it in the viewer's heads. Regardless, it's really fun to speculate! I admittedly have a soft spot for Dean being immune to supernatural influences (Famine, Amara's smoke, Rowena's magic vs. the MoC).

IA that the immunity was glossed over at the end. I mean there was no one else in the room to witness it, but you would think that Dean, himself, might have wondered about it after his blood had cooled.

I guess we'll see if they bring it up again.

I can't see how they wouldn't, but things like this have happened before with little to no explanation, such as when he looked Zachariah in the eyes when the angel was in his true form as he was dying or yes, when he was immune to Famine's powers and Amara's smoke AND her soul sucking.

Edited by Myrelle
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juppschmitz

juppschmitz

3 hours ago, BoxManLocke said:

Liked that sneak peek. Waitress is pretty badass.

 

This was never the part of the episode I was worried about anyway. Sam and FakeCharlie on the other hand...

Sam never really connected with real!Charlie. Not until he guilt tripped her into helping with the Book of thr Damned and eventually got her killed. Wonder if they are going to bring this up.

(They might, only to have fake!Charlie tell Sam he did the right thing.)

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Bobcatkitten

Bobcatkitten

8 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

Sam never really connected with real!Charlie. Not until he guilt tripped her into helping with the Book of thr Damned and eventually got her killed. Wonder if they are going to bring this up.

(They might, only to have fake!Charlie tell Sam he did the right thing.)

He did not, in any way, do the right thing. 

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ahrtee

ahrtee

44 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

He did not, in any way, do the right thing. 

Oddly enough, I'm going to defend Sam (sort of).

He did the wrong thing in saving (and using) the Book of the Damned, in the same way Dean did the wrong thing by allowing Gadreel to "trick" Sam into saying yes.  But in the same way, both Charlie and Sam made their own choices, guilt or trickery notwithstanding.  Both could have said no.  

And there wouldn't have been such dire consequences except for bad luck/stupidity/bad writing:  Gadreel decided to believe Metatron, and Charlie decided to leave the safety of the warehouse (or wherever they were) to go off on her own, when she knew the badguys could track her.

None of that was on either Sam or Dean.  

 

9 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

Sam never really connected with real!Charlie. Not until he guilt tripped her into helping with the Book of thr Damned and eventually got her killed. Wonder if they are going to bring this up.

I would think Sam would be uncomfortable around Charlie (and I'm guessing that's where she tells him that she's not that person, and has no bad feelings towards him, so he can feel better.  *sigh*)  

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catrox14

catrox14

8 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I would think Sam would be uncomfortable around Charlie (and I'm guessing that's where she tells him that she's not that person, and has no bad feelings towards him, so he can feel better.  *sigh*)  

Sam gave not!Charlie a big hug when he first met her and she didn't punch him or anything.  I think they are gearing up for a Sam-Not!Charlie best friends scenario.

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ahrtee

ahrtee

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam gave not!Charlie a big hug when he first met her and she didn't punch him or anything.  I think they are gearing up for a Sam-Not!Charlie best friends scenario.

I'm guessing the guilt would turn up when they have to work together alone, though I'm sure they're going to wind up with a "more profound bond."  I was basing things off the spoiler "Charlie will have to remind the boys that she is NOT the same person she was in their world."  I take that to mean pushing away Dean and embracing Sam (figuratively speaking, though maybe her preferences were different in the AU.)

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ILoveReading

ILoveReading

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I'm guessing the guilt would turn up when they have to work together alone, though I'm sure they're going to wind up with a "more profound bond."  I was basing things off the spoiler "Charlie will have to remind the boys that she is NOT the same person she was in their world."  I take that to mean pushing away Dean and embracing Sam (figuratively speaking, though maybe her preferences were different in the AU.)

Will respond in bitter spoilers.

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

The promo didn`t give a vibe of friction. Maybe it will be there in the earliest scene but I reckon it ends with her bonding with Sam and validating him for his great leadership.

I`m not sure what point there is to pairing Dean and Jack. They don`t currently have a bad relationship and Jack already is endlessly mollycoddled. I do not need to see him be the better hunter or something to soothe his "poor me" woes. If they are just the B-plot to fill time, Cas would have had made more sense. Then Dean, Sam and Charlie could have gone as a trio. You could still have individual scenes with Dean/Charlie and Sam/Charlie in that scenario if the goal is to shorten individual set times.   

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gonzosgirrl

gonzosgirrl

2 hours ago, SueB said:

They mentioned not!Charlie was different -- I expect more friction than friendship.

Nah, they have her on a road trip with Rowena don't they? I'm sure she and Sam are going to be good friends, since they already did the "I'm not her" thing in the AU.

I must say though, as much as I find Sam guilty of many things, OG Charlie got herself killed, period, full stop.

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Casseiopeia

Casseiopeia

(edited)

This is the oddest season.  We are already at E6? and nothing much is happening.  The plot is not progressing.  Dabb says Dean is not possessed anymore but he has been contradicted before so who knows.  Sam is a camp counselor but his "kids" aren't really part of the story, Dean is or is not possessed, Michael is targeting Hunters in the most inefficient way possible (if he wanted to destroy them well they are all in the penetrable Bunker, problem solved), Babysitter Cas needs to be fired  and Jack is sick-ish.  That was established in the first episode and nothing much more has been revealed other than a djinn was afraid of Dean and Kaia has a magic stick.

And now in E6? Sam and Charlie are going on an adventure and Dean is babysitting Jack because Cas is busy?  We are more than a quarter of the way through this season.  Someone needs to pick up the pace.  

Edited by Casseiopeia
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ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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