Spoilers With Speculation

[gonzosgirrl]

25 minutes ago, SueB said:

Just to be clear, 'no secret' is still speculation.  There's no interview or cast/crew/writer statement that has said he's working on any spin-off since the failed Bloodlines.  The Network have said they are interested if WBTV offers one but nothing from the studio that says they are.  OTOH, we HAVE had a potential hint from Bob Singer prior to 'Ladies Drink Free' that there might be one.  And now Brianna/Kim seem to be hinting.  But again, if that comes to pass, that may or may not be Dabb.  He's pretty busy with the Supernatural flagship.  When he did Bloodlines, Adam Glass was head writer. Since then he's been promoted to first Head Writer and later co-a Show Runner.  And it's not like Singer writes. So, I'd say Dabb is pretty busy.  

 

So, what if a spin-off is in the works and Dabb is not heading it up?   Who WOULD be?  I think that is an interesting question.  

I thought that saying "I think" in the speculation thread made it clear that it is my speculation. The Dabb part is more wishful thinking. *g*

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I think the writers with the most seniority after Dabb (and I'm basing this on the rotation schedule) would be Buck/Lemming or Berens. 

/shudders...this is the most terrifying thing I have ever read about Supernatural EVER.  Oh Gods..

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

See, I don't see Dabb having any interest in the Wayward Daughters idea. Based on interviews and such, it seems to me Singer is the one interested in that idea, not Dabb.

I don't think Singer cares one way or the other. I think he's blows hot air about it most of the time. He said something about Wayward Daughters and someone asked Brianna on Twitter if she knows anything about this and her reply was "I do not". 

So, yeah, maybe they'll give them a full episode with minimal J2M to see how it plays before doing anything.

Bob Singer also said if  Felicia Day called up and say I have time we wouldn't say no. That's pretty douchey IMO. But Felicia pushed right back

e".

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think Singer cares one way or the other. I think he's blows hot air about it most of the time. He said something about Wayward Daughters and someone asked Brianna on Twitter if she knows anything about this and her reply was "I do not". 

Well, I agree with you that Singer blows a lot of hot air, but it's Singer who has brought up the idea a couple times over the last year, I've yet to see any interest on Dabb's part. As I said, personally, I don't think they're planning a Wayward Daughters spinoff, but was commenting on someone else saying they thought Dabb really wanted the Wayward Daughters spinoff. I just don't see that, myself. Nor do I see him interested in any spinoff.

[Res]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Close up on the symbol. Notes:

- It's a clawed hand in the center

- While the 'd' at the end COULD be a backwards/upside down 'p', that middle character does NOT look like an 'n' in any orientation IMO. Sussing this out is probably a valid exercise. 

My initial take: shit is f*cked up. I know.  Insightful.  /sarcasm. 

Apologies for bad pic.  Using phone for screen capture. 

Correct if I'm wrong, and I probably am, but doesn't the crew/BTS people abbreviate SPN as SN? Because it looks like the letters are "SN" with at 13 in the claw breaking up those 2 letters?

I guess I'll take the rest of my comments to the UO thread because exploring AUs doesn't sound exciting or intriguing to me with the current writers we have. They can barely write the minimum for this world. Lord knows how screwed up everything will be if they do their own things with the AUs. Just look at what they currently do with less that's required to keep straight. 

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, I agree with you that Singer blows a lot of hot air, but it's Singer who has brought up the idea a couple times over the last year, I've yet to see any interest on Dabb's part. As I said, personally, I don't think they're planning a Wayward Daughters spinoff, but was commenting on someone else saying they thought Dabb really wanted the Wayward Daughters spinoff. I just don't see that, myself. Nor do I see him interested in any spinoff.

I personally would just love to Singer to retire and leave the show alone. Same for Dabb.

[catrox14]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

Well, I agree with you that Singer blows a lot of hot air, but it's Singer who has brought up the idea a couple times over the last year, I've yet to see any interest on Dabb's part. As I said, personally, I don't think they're planning a Wayward Daughters spinoff, but was commenting on someone else saying they thought Dabb really wanted the Wayward Daughters spinoff. I just don't see that, myself. Nor do I see him interested in any spinoff.

I think he only mentions it when asked about it. But I could be wrong too

5 minutes ago, Res said:

Correct if I'm wrong, and I probably am, but doesn't the crew/BTS people abbreviate SPN as SN? Because it looks like the letters are "SN" with at 13 in the claw breaking up those 2 letters?

I think you are correct about this.

[DittyDotDot]

Just now, catrox14 said:

I think he only mentions it when asked about it. But I could be wrong too

Right, but my point was that Dabb hasn't said anything at all about it. So, if anybody wants a Wayward Daughters spinoff--which, as I've said many times now, I'm not convinced anyone but certain fans do--I think it would be more likely Singer since he has at least shown some interest in the idea while no other producer or writer has.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Right, but my point was that Dabb hasn't said anything at all about it. So, if anybody wants a Wayward Daughters spinoff--which, as I've said many times now, I'm not convinced anyone but certain fans do--I think it would be more likely Singer since he has at least shown some interest in the idea while no other producer or writer has.

I got your point about Dabb.

My point is that I don't think Singer is any more interested or likely to do the Wayward Daughters thing than Dabb. IMO, just because Singer doesn't answer negatively about the general idea to fans at a convention doesn't mean he in interested in doing it. He's placating fans with platitudes, feigns interest and is completely non committal.

In general, I agree with those that think Dabb wants a spinoff, but I don't think he wants Wayward Daughters.  I think he'd rather do a Men of Letters thing. But then I also think Dabb is trying to rework SPN to be it's own bastardized "spinoff" when J2 decide to pull up stakes.

[AwesomO4000]

19 minutes ago, Res said:

Because it looks like the letters are "SN" with at 13 in the claw breaking up those 2 letters?

I was going to post something along these lines myself. I was trying to find a "P" anywhere, but all I could see was an S and an N.

The interesting thing for me about that picture is the clawed hand. The nails on the thumb and pointer finger are facing one way - as if the clawed hand is grabbing towards the viewer - while the other three claws are facing as if the clawed hand is grabbing towards the "SN." I can't think of a configuration where the claws could look like that unless the clawed hand was half facing one way, and half the other, but that's rather weird, and another question is: why?

[DittyDotDot]

15 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I was going to post something along these lines myself. I was trying to find a "P" anywhere, but all I could see was an S and an N.

Yeah, it's clearly an SN. Which is consistent with the production pins of the past, I believe. Here are past images from: http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Production_pins

 

 

 

 

[rue721]

I guess the clawed hand represents next year's Big Bad.

So maybe someone coming out of a portal, or someone coming out of a grave.

I'm hoping for "grave." Because you know, I'm into all the ghosts and things.

But "portal" would be fine, too -- as long as it's not Luci!

[catrox14]

It just occurred to me, wasn't there some promo art that came out between 10 and 11 with a claw like hand coming out of hell or something? I swear I remember that

[DittyDotDot]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It just occurred to me, wasn't there some promo art that came out between 10 and 11 with a claw like hand coming out of hell or something? I swear I remember that

Is this what you were thinking of? It's the S10 poster:

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Is this what you were thinking of? It's the S10 poster:

No it was something else. It was one hand that looked very much like the hand on the new one.

[DittyDotDot]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

No it was something else. It was one hand that looked very much like the hand on the new one.

I ran across this when looking for the poster I posted above:

However, it might not have been something offical you saw. There's a lot of talented fans out there making artwork that looks very professional? I dunno.

My personal guess is the claw represents the spawn.

[rue721]

Also weird that the claw is breaking the Impala in two. I think that implies a "the call is coming from inside the house!" kind of situation. Hmm.

[catrox14]

40 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

However, it might not have been something offical you saw. There's a lot of talented fans out there making artwork that looks very professional? I dunno.

My personal guess is the claw represents the spawn.

No it wasn't that one either. It wasn't fanart. I'm gonna find it. LOL

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

Also weird that the claw is breaking the Impala in two. I think that implies a "the call is coming from inside the house!" kind of situation. Hmm.

No joke, I literally thought the same thing! LOL

[SueB]

Good catch on the "SN".

The claw is sufficiently creepy for a pin. 

[ILoveReading]

I guess Kim and Brianna said at the convention this week that they'd already seen a script and it was awesome.  So, I'm guessing it must heavily feature them and may be the set up for a spin off.  They've been hinting at cons about something exciting happening. 

[Jonesy]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I guess Kim and Brianna said at the convention this week that they'd already seen a script and it was awesome.  So, I'm guessing it must heavily feature them and may be the set up for a spin off.  They've been hinting at cons about something exciting happening. 

Well the writers started May 15...so maybe they have 3, 4 scripts or so done.  So some of the actors may know some early things.

Edited June 12, 2017 by Jakes

[DittyDotDot]

43 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I guess Kim and Brianna said at the convention this week that they'd already seen a script and it was awesome.  So, I'm guessing it must heavily feature them and may be the set up for a spin off.  They've been hinting at cons about something exciting happening. 

See, that just make me think my spec from up thread might be right. I don't think it's a spinoff, but that Jodi and Donna are probably going to be more regular characters in S13. Which makes sense if they're going to organize the hunter community. And, that probably means Jodi and Donna are in the first couple episodes back, too. 

Edited June 12, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Pondlass1]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

organize the hunter community

I think the PTB are looking for a spinout.  Supernatural has been very profitable, but it's ending.  Maybe it's just me - but the fact they were testing out spinoffs seemed obvious this past season.  Sam & Dean were guest stars in their own show.  The PTB were throwing spaghetti plotlines at the wall to see if anything stuck - nothing did.

BMOL, US hunters unite, Mary hunter extraordinaire, etc.  They were trying them out.  We hardly saw Jodi and co., but it's no secret the fans love Jodi so Wayward Daughters is probably be considered.

The only spinoff that could work is 'Castiel'.  He's got a huge following and there's stories there.  However, IMO Misha's not strong enough acting-wise to carry a show. 

The ONE spinoff I'd love to watch - is from Dean's birth onwards.  Mary makes that deal and hunts in secret, John oblivious.  Then Sam is born, Mary forgets deal, dies and John goes rabid and hunts with his children in tow.  If they could ever find the actors (they can't) this is the story I'd like to be told.  It's absolutely fascinating.

[Jonesy]

10 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I think the PTB are looking for a spinout.  Supernatural has been very profitable, but it's ending.  Maybe it's just me - but the fact they were testing out spinoffs seemed obvious this past season.  Sam & Dean were guest stars in their own show.  The PTB were throwing spaghetti plotlines at the wall to see if anything stuck - nothing did.

BMOL, US hunters unite, Mary hunter extraordinaire, etc.  They were trying them out.  We hardly saw Jodi and co., but it's no secret the fans love Jodi so Wayward Daughters is probably be considered.

The only spinoff that could work is 'Castiel'.  He's got a huge following and there's stories there.  However, IMO Misha's not strong enough acting-wise to carry a show. 

The ONE spinoff I'd love to watch - is from Dean's birth onwards.  Mary makes that deal and hunts in secret, John oblivious.  Then Sam is born, Mary forgets deal, dies and John goes rabid and hunts with his children in tow.  If they could ever find the actors (they can't) this is the story I'd like to be told.  It's absolutely fascinating.

Well as I said before don't think the boys were guest stars on their own show at all but that said I think they may have tested out a few things this year.  Yes it would be hard to make a spinoff--mainly because it's kind of too late now as show it's not at its height of popularity anymore--even with a spinoff of Cas.  Think Misha acting wise can do it if paired with someone equal to him but that spinoff isn't happening anyway.

 

Listening to the J panel--Jared again repeated what he said before...when talking about having kids changes the equation said doesn't see going past episode 300.  So we could easily have season 14 as the last--maybe only a half season.

[Pondlass1]

5 minutes ago, Jakes said:

So we could easily have season 14 as the last--maybe only a half season.

I think this is true.  I'm preparing myself...  Although I complain a lot, I'm going to miss this show.  I've never ever been hooked on anything before in my life, not a movie, TV show, actor or rock star.  (I'm pretty boring).

Jensen hooked me in.  He'd better find another gig quick. I don't like withdrawal. :(

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I think the PTB are looking for a spinout.  Supernatural has been very profitable, but it's ending.  Maybe it's just me - but the fact they were testing out spinoffs seemed obvious this past season.  Sam & Dean were guest stars in their own show.  The PTB were throwing spaghetti plotlines at the wall to see if anything stuck - nothing did.

I don't know, I think if they stumbled on a spinoff they'd be elated, but I don't think they're actively looking to do one anymore. Since S8, everyone's been saying they're looking for a spinoff--and I think they really were back in S9 and S10--but they tried it and it failed. TBH, I think they've moved on from the idea, myself. I think they're trying to just keep the mothership up and running as long as they can right now. 

What most people seem to think as writing for a spinoff, I think it's them trying to adapt and adjust the show so it can continue at this point. The show will always center around Sam and Dean, but at this stage of the game, they need more characters that can actually hold their own and have room to learn and grow too. IMO, There's really no place left to go with Sam and Dean at this point, IMO. They have faced so much that everything is kinda small potatoes now--I mean, once you've defeated God's sister... . And, as characters, they're all grown up now and their issues have been basically worked out over and over and over again. Personally, I don't see them needing anymore growth or see what else there is to grow. It's all just taking them two steps backwards so they can move one step forward anymore. 

Personally, I think its smart of the show to focus on other characters not named Sam and Dean. If they'd done it sooner, the show would probably be sustainable to go on for many years. As it is, It probably will only last until Jared and Jensen say quits, which I think will be when they reach that 300 mark. Although, that's what I thought when they reached S10 and the 200 mark, so who knows, right?

Anyway, Jodi has proven to work for the show, so it seems like a no brainer to try and work her in more. We'll see if Donna can really hold her own, I love the character, but I'm not sure she there's enough there for more than a couple one-offs. I'm not as interested in Claire or Alex, but done right, I'm sure I could be and I think there is a lot of story potential with them because they're in the position Sam and Dean were at the start of the series. They have just enough knowledge to be competent, but they're also young and inexperienced, so there's a lot of room to grow with them. And, they have a history that's not been fully fleshed out yet. 

So, yeah, I don't see a spinoff in the works as much as an evolution of sorts. Which, TBH, I'm more interested in watching just to see if they can do it. I can think of a couple shows that tried it previously--The X-files, for one--but none come to mind that's done it successfully.

[Pondlass1]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Sam and Dean

The only reason I watch.  It all falls flat when they're not onscreen.  You can't buy chemistry, whoever signed up these two actors deserves a gold star.  They work. Their complex relationship works... despite some contrived writing.  It's a two man show.  Trying to wedge in other characters hasn't really worked... well, maybe Cas. 

 Without S&D front and centre everything crumbles.  Only two pillars holding this show up. If it had been presented as an ensemble in the beginning - wouldn't have made it to season 5 in my opinion. 

An now the Js have families and want time off.

[companionenvy]

18 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

The only reason I watch.  It all falls flat when they're not onscreen.

To the (large) extent to which this is true, IMO, it is a flaw of the writing rather than an inherent part of the show's DNA. It is true that this show was never intended as an ensemble, and I don't think it would have worked to turn it into a true "team" show where Sam and Dean were scarcely more important than anyone else (and I don't think that came close to happening this season, either. Other characters may have gotten relatively more focus, but Sam and Dean are still clearly the leads).  That being said, most good shows manage to weave in interesting subplots centered around strong supporting characters, especially if they're going to last even close to as long as SPN has. I'm sure there are some viewers who wouldn't have liked any non-Winchester plotlines no matter how good they were but for the most part, I think if the show had given us well-written and developed plots for Cas, Crowley, etc, we wouldn't have had a problem with some reduction in screen time for the Winchesters.

[Jonesy]

Just now, companionenvy said:

To the (large) extent to which this is true, IMO, it is a flaw of the writing rather than an inherent part of the show's DNA. It is true that this show was never intended as an ensemble, and I don't think it would have worked to turn it into a true "team" show where Sam and Dean were scarcely more important than anyone else (and I don't think that came close to happening this season, either. Other characters may have gotten relatively more focus, but Sam and Dean are still clearly the leads).  That being said, most good shows manage to weave in interesting subplots centered around strong supporting characters, especially if they're going to last even close to as long as SPN has. I'm sure there are some viewers who wouldn't have liked any non-Winchester plotlines no matter how good they were but for the most part, I think if the show had given us well-written and developed plots for Cas, Crowley, etc, we wouldn't have had a problem with some reduction in screen time for the Winchesters.

Meh, I don't think the show falls flat if the boys aren't in every second--they are in the great majority of moments...good support such as Cas and many others carry the rest fine for the most part.

[catrox14]

Putting Jody and Donna in an episode could be the official backdoor pilot grown of the seeds that were already sown pretty heavily in s12 IMO, especially with Jody.

Jody was featured in the Asa Fox episode wherein she's giving motherly advice and comfort to Dean, telling Mary how her boys are the best men, and it's revealed she's been in a relationship with a hunter, Asa Fox, whom she had to watch burn in a Hunter's funeral. She's then she's possessed and survives. Both things which give her even more reason to want to help rid the world of demons and monsters as if watching her son become a monster who kills her husband wasn't enough. 

Claire was featured in her episode wherein she makes rookie mistakes and is almost turned into a werewolf, but survives and goes off on her own, apparently hunting.

Jody is brought back for the finale. along with Alex. Jody's role is rather important as once more she is the emotional support for Dean and she then serves as Sam's 2nd in command during the raid on the BMOLair, wherein she shoots a big bad in the head and doesn't die in the episode.  Alex has a smaller role but she was given the big homage line of "Kick it in the Ass" and Donna gets a mention. Those seeds could also be used to expand  the SPN mothership itself into a true ensemble show.

Using the boiling frog analogy I can sort of see Dabb having been doing that since he took over IMO back mid-way of s11. Test the audience limits with how much less j2 fans will tolerate. Maybe they think that will be less shocking to the system of the collective fandom. IMO, Dabb has been slowly re-writing the show with introducing new characters to see who sticks around. Then bringing back long time recurring popular characters if they can, like Bobby and apparently stupid  Lucifer,  which creates goodwill and appeals to nostalgia but IMO it's, also, a stealthy maneuver to gradually phase out J2 to the point where they become recurring guest characters who are treated with reverence. They can plan episodes where J2 will be heavily featured and promote those as more or less EVENT television.  I personally don't want that to happen. I prefer J2M/TFW remain together on SPN doing their thing and then let whomever else go on to a spinoff.

The AU is a way to reintroduce those past characters and bring them into the SPN world:

There is a reason why Dean and AU!Bobby had the conversation of 'Well, our side sounds better than yours' and 'I dunno, it's not so bad'.  There is a reason Hess asked "The Voice" to open a portal and was told there wasn't enough time. IMO, that wasn't just for the finale. There is a reason that it was so pointed that Sam was uploading all the bunker stuff into the cloud in Stuck in the Middle. IMO the boys are going to find a way to go between the grey side and the SPN side. It's either going to be through Sproutifer, or something in the BMOL info that surely Sam downloaded at some point. I can't imagine him just blowing up the BMOLair  without having gathered some of the tech and data. He'd be the worst commander EVER if he did that. Given his promotion to Hunter General, I don't think he'll not have done, at least,  that.

I think Misha could easily carry his own show but I don't think he wants to do that. I think he's probably just fine with being a series regular who doesn't have to work all the time as long as Castiel has reasonably good SL.  I'm sure the Castiel/Misha/Destiel detractors would celebrate that turn of events. However, I think TFW fans,  Dean/Cas relationship fans, and Destiel/Sastiel shippers would be disappointed.  That said, if Cas isn't really most sincerely dead, maybe he'll get a call from Alex who says 'Claire went hunting and hasn't been home in a few weeks"...so off he goes. 

Who knows!

Edited June 12, 2017 by catrox14
revised thoughts and grammar

[companionenvy]

2 minutes ago, Jakes said:

Meh, I don't think the show falls flat if the boys aren't in every second--they are in the great majority of moments...good support such as Cas and many others carry the rest fine for the most part.

Not every second, but I do think Cas and Crowley have mostly gotten pretty unsatisfying plots. I love Cas and often enjoy even his non-Winchester scenes, but as a whole I really don't think he's been utilized effectively. Crowley is, IMO, much worse, as I enjoy him snarking with the Winchesters but rarely care about watching him on his own. 

[Jonesy]

7 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Not every second, but I do think Cas and Crowley have mostly gotten pretty unsatisfying plots. I love Cas and often enjoy even his non-Winchester scenes, but as a whole I really don't think he's been utilized effectively. Crowley is, IMO, much worse, as I enjoy him snarking with the Winchesters but rarely care about watching him on his own. 

I think all the characters including the J's could get better writing but I don't think it's bad per se--that said I still enjoyed Cas, Crowley, Jody and a bunch of guest stars.  They bounce off the J's and it helps the show.  Again it could be better(as you say) but for the most part I enjoy the various inputs and interactions...not just the J's.  Now some may only like the J's or Misha or just one of the J's--that's cool, though I like the whole broad thing with the J's in the center(which they still are).

Edited June 12, 2017 by Jakes

[ahrtee]

49 minutes ago, Jakes said:

I think all the characters including the J's could get better writing but I don't think it's bad per se--that said I still enjoyed Cas, Crowley, Jody and a bunch of guest stars.  They bounce off the J's and it helps the show.  Again it could be better(as you say) but for the most part I enjoy the various inputs and interactions...not just the J's.  Now some may only like the J's or Misha or just one of the J's--that's cool, though I like the whole broad thing with the J's in the center(which they still are).

I enjoy the characters, and I love when they're "support" for the main plot, rather than having stories of their own with no real connection to the boys.   That doesn't mean Jared & Jensen have to be on screen all the time, but IA that their *story* should be the center focus that all others work towards.  The separate-but-equal storylines (Crowley in hell/with Lucifer, Cas fighting/uniting the angels) IMO fell flat because we weren't invested in them (or those stories) as much and they took us away from the focus on the boys.  Having the Js onscreen less can work--think Jody and Donna finding and working the case together in Hibbing 911, with the boys showing up to help out (and/or save the day.)  Or maybe having the boys sidelined because of injuries/illness and having someone else do their legwork.  It's still focusing on the Js even if they're not on screen.  JMO.  

Edited June 12, 2017 by ahrtee
clarification.

[Jonesy]

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I enjoy the characters, and I love when they're "support" for the main plot, rather than having stories of their own with no real connection to the boys.   That doesn't mean Jared & Jensen have to be on screen all the time, but IA that their *story* should be the center focus that all others work towards.  The separate-but-equal storylines (Crowley in hell/with Lucifer, Cas fighting/uniting the angels) IMO fell flat because we weren't invested in them (or those stories) as much and they took us away from the focus on the boys.  Having the Js onscreen less can work--think Jody and Donna finding and working the case together in Hibbing 911, with the boys showing up to help out (and/or save the day.)  Or maybe having the boys sidelined because of injuries/illness and having someone else do their legwork.  It's still focusing on the Js even if they're not on screen.  JMO.  

I don't mind an A plot and B plot from time to time at all.  I found most of them worked well enough--that said we could always have better writing for everyone.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, Jakes said:

I don't mind an A plot and B plot from time to time at all.  I found most of them worked well enough--that said we could always have better writing for everyone.

I think A/B plots work well with equal leads, especially with ensemble casts.  But I don't think that's the case here.   So I don't mind another character taking the lead once in a while (I really loved Weekend at Bobby's) but in a recurring storyline, I'd prefer it to be related to the Winchesters.  Maybe it's just that (to me) the heaven/hell SLs were so badly done that I just had no interest in them, so they brought the episode to a screeching halt for me (TBH, I still can't remember half the episodes from the fallen angels SL).  But I'd still rather have the focus on whatever the boys are doing, even if they're not onscreen.  JMO.  

[companionenvy]

As I think I've noted before, I think the problem is precisely that we aren't actually getting A and B plots most of the time. We're getting arc plots and MOW episodes, with characters like Cas and Crowley usually only appearing in arc-related scenes, either with the boys or on their own, aside from the occasional episode like "Lily Sunder" in which the MOW is Cas-centric.

A model I'd prefer is to sometimes have a more traditional "B" plot in which Sam and Dean are on a hunt (A plot) and Cas is doing something else that is relatively independent of them - i.e, he decides he's going to take on his own hunt. Maybe there could be an intersection at the end sometimes, but for the most part, it would be Cas getting his own subsidiary but autonomous, character-based story for that episode. This could also be a place where maybe the Js could occasionally separate. Much as I love Sam and Dean's dynamic, I don't see what would be wrong of having at least a couple more episodes than they do per season in which the brothers aren't hunting together (for a reason other than a feud). Like, maybe in "American Nightmare" -- a case in which, as plenty of people have noted, Dean didn't get much to do -- Sam could have taken that case on his own, for whatever reason (like, maybe Dean had followed a separate lead that wound up being a bust, and wound up back at the bunker earlier), leaving Dean and Cas to go on a hunt together, or have some story that would examine their relationship. Maybe, before Mary decided she had to leave, we could have had a few episodes where she and Cas were hunting with the boys, and we had plots (whether as part of one hunt or two different cases) in which the foursome paired off in different configurations - Dean and Mary; Sam and Cas, even Mary and Cas.

I don't think any of this would jeopardize the bro-bond, or the Winchester's centrality. Rather, it would give a chance to better explore some other, less well-worn dynamics while making better use of secondary characters -- and giving the Js some much deserved time off.

[Wayward Son]

6 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

As I think I've noted before, I think the problem is precisely that we aren't actually getting A and B plots most of the time. We're getting arc plots and MOW episodes, with characters like Cas and Crowley usually only appearing in arc-related scenes, either with the boys or on their own, aside from the occasional episode like "Lily Sunder" in which the MOW is Cas-centric.

A model I'd prefer is to sometimes have a more traditional "B" plot in which Sam and Dean are on a hunt (A plot) and Cas is doing something else that is relatively independent of them - i.e, he decides he's going to take on his own hunt. Maybe there could be an intersection at the end sometimes, but for the most part, it would be Cas getting his own subsidiary but autonomous, character-based story for that episode. This could also be a place where maybe the Js could occasionally separate. Much as I love Sam and Dean's dynamic, I don't see what would be wrong of having at least a couple more episodes than they do per season in which the brothers aren't hunting together (for a reason other than a feud). Like, maybe in "American Nightmare" -- a case in which, as plenty of people have noted, Dean didn't get much to do -- Sam could have taken that case on his own, for whatever reason (like, maybe Dean had followed a separate lead that wound up being a bust, and wound up back at the bunker earlier), leaving Dean and Cas to go on a hunt together, or have some story that would examine their relationship. Maybe, before Mary decided she had to leave, we could have had a few episodes where she and Cas were hunting with the boys, and we had plots (whether as part of one hunt or two different cases) in which the foursome paired off in different configurations - Dean and Mary; Sam and Cas, even Mary and Cas.

I don't think any of this would jeopardize the bro-bond, or the Winchester's centrality. Rather, it would give a chance to better explore some other, less well-worn dynamics while making better use of secondary characters -- and giving the Js some much deserved time off.

Agreed entirely! Now can someone with twitter send the writers a link to this post ;) 

[DittyDotDot]

42 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

As I think I've noted before, I think the problem is precisely that we aren't actually getting A and B plots most of the time. We're getting arc plots and MOW episodes, with characters like Cas and Crowley usually only appearing in arc-related scenes, either with the boys or on their own, aside from the occasional episode like "Lily Sunder" in which the MOW is Cas-centric.

A model I'd prefer is to sometimes have a more traditional "B" plot in which Sam and Dean are on a hunt (A plot) and Cas is doing something else that is relatively independent of them - i.e, he decides he's going to take on his own hunt. Maybe there could be an intersection at the end sometimes, but for the most part, it would be Cas getting his own subsidiary but autonomous, character-based story for that episode. This could also be a place where maybe the Js could occasionally separate. Much as I love Sam and Dean's dynamic, I don't see what would be wrong of having at least a couple more episodes than they do per season in which the brothers aren't hunting together (for a reason other than a feud). Like, maybe in "American Nightmare" -- a case in which, as plenty of people have noted, Dean didn't get much to do -- Sam could have taken that case on his own, for whatever reason (like, maybe Dean had followed a separate lead that wound up being a bust, and wound up back at the bunker earlier), leaving Dean and Cas to go on a hunt together, or have some story that would examine their relationship. Maybe, before Mary decided she had to leave, we could have had a few episodes where she and Cas were hunting with the boys, and we had plots (whether as part of one hunt or two different cases) in which the foursome paired off in different configurations - Dean and Mary; Sam and Cas, even Mary and Cas.

I don't think any of this would jeopardize the bro-bond, or the Winchester's centrality. Rather, it would give a chance to better explore some other, less well-worn dynamics while making better use of secondary characters -- and giving the Js some much deserved time off.

This is exactly what I've been saying for the last couple years. Shake it up a little to get out of the rut. I'm constantly amazed they don't pair off Sam and Dean more just to see what happens with other characters.  That's sometimes where the magic happens when two very unlikely characters get teamed up together. I love Sam and Dean's dynamic, but you don't have to get rid of their dynamic to explore other dynamics.

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

This is exactly what I've been saying for the last couple years. Shake it up a little to get out of the rut. I'm constantly amazed they don't pair off Sam and Dean more just to see what happens with other characters.  That's sometimes where the magic happens when two very unlikely characters get teamed up together. I love Sam and Dean's dynamic, but you don't have to get rid of their dynamic to explore other dynamics.

56 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

A model I'd prefer is to sometimes have a more traditional "B" plot in which Sam and Dean are on a hunt (A plot) and Cas is doing something else that is relatively independent of them - i.e, he decides he's going to take on his own hunt. Maybe there could be an intersection at the end sometimes, but for the most part, it would be Cas getting his own subsidiary but autonomous, character-based story for that episode. This could also be a place where maybe the Js could occasionally separate. Much as I love Sam and Dean's dynamic, I don't see what would be wrong of having at least a couple more episodes than they do per season in which the brothers aren't hunting together (for a reason other than a feud). Like, maybe in "American Nightmare" -- a case in which, as plenty of people have noted, Dean didn't get much to do -- Sam could have taken that case on his own, for whatever reason (like, maybe Dean had followed a separate lead that wound up being a bust, and wound up back at the bunker earlier), leaving Dean and Cas to go on a hunt together, or have some story that would examine their relationship. Maybe, before Mary decided she had to leave, we could have had a few episodes where she and Cas were hunting with the boys, and we had plots (whether as part of one hunt or two different cases) in which the foursome paired off in different configurations - Dean and Mary; Sam and Cas, even Mary and Cas.

I don't think any of this would jeopardize the bro-bond, or the Winchester's centrality. Rather, it would give a chance to better explore some other, less well-worn dynamics while making better use of secondary characters -- and giving the Js some much deserved time off.

I have no problem whatsoever with pairing the boys off with other characters,  exploring other dynamics, or even having one or the other sidelined for an ep or so (as long as there was a good reason :) .)  But that's still focusing on the Winchesters and their connection to the story.  

But to try to go to the separate-but-equal A/B plots at this point in the series wouldn't work, IMO, especially trying to squeeze two completely independent SLs into 41-minutes of airtime (including previouslies).  There's an art to making ensemble shows work, and it starts at the beginning, when all leads are equal and no one expects more of one or another.  But there are certain expectations that go with SPN by now, and one of them is that the Winchesters are its center.  So while I'd enjoy a few independent episodes with one character or another as the focus, I don't want the intermingled plot lines going on for any length of time.  The writers haven't proven that they can do it well, and frankly, I'm not as interested in the other characters as I am in Sam and Dean, even after all this time.  Besides, they've already done most of the things Companion Envy suggested:  a large part of s.12 focused on other characters and their separate storylines, and it was one of the worst seasons IMO, probably for that very reason:  no real focus, just a bunch of separate (and arguably boring) plots that did all coalesce at the end, but not very satisfactorily.  

So I think we're talking two different things here:  one, separating the boys more and giving them "other dynamics" (while still keeping them at the center of things, even if they get less screen time); and giving independent SLs for other characters.  Frankly, if they're going to go with an ensemble cast, each with his/her own stories, I'd rather *that* were the spinoff and not part of SPN.  Otherwise, I'd be waiting for the Js to show up and get frustrated when they didn't.  Even as much as I loved Bobby and Rufus and would have loved to see them working cases together, I'd still rather that wasn't time taken out of a "regular" SPN episode.  Again, JMO and very obviously YMMV.  

[DittyDotDot]

44 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

But to try to go to the separate-but-equal A/B plots at this point in the series wouldn't work, IMO, especially trying to squeeze two completely independent SLs into 41-minutes of airtime (including previouslies).

I disagree, they did it really well in Heaven Can Wait. They had Sam and Kevin researching the season long arc--and dealing with Crowley who was locked in the dungeon--while Dean hit the road and worked a case with Cass.

Personally, I've never been suggesting these side characters have completely separate storylines--I think that's what's drug the show down the last couple years; Cass and Crowley have been off in storyline Siberia and no one cares about the repetitive demon court and angel civil wars. I want the team as a whole to be working together more and it to be more of an ensemble show.

Edited June 12, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

Just watched the two panels from PHXCON.  Future speculation thoughts:
- I think Jared WAS testing the waters with "300".  It was an awkward silence after that from the audience.  So I don't think he got positive feedback for that as an ending point.  OTOH, I think the boys ARE coming to realize that they MAY have to make the decision themselves.
- When you have 12 and 13 year olds asking questions, you KNOW you have a generational show. And I think that while they experience young people all the time, the are now at the "age" of the show that the kids as old as the show are asking real questions.  And that's gotta be a little freaky.  And it may make them feel old as well.   Which could factor into the "how long do we go" decision.
- I was a little surprised at how relatively cavalier they were about the "death" of Cas and Crowley. WE know, they know, Misha is coming back.  And they really may NOT know about Mark putting the kabosh on the 'never say never' spin.  Dudes are busy.  They may not follow SM that much on hiatus.  When compared to the death of Charlie, they are very laid back about it.  To me, they seem comfortable with both Crowley and Cas' fate. But they seemed pretty 'whatever happens happens' regarding story line. They WANT to know, but I don't sense any specific lobbying**.
- It's important to remember that they have a contract for S13 but not yet for S14 (which they NEED for 300 eps). The last two or three contract renews have been for two years at a time.  And they also seem to have 'locked in' what they are going to do regarding contracts in the December, early January timeframe BEFORE the end or the season (based on past events).  So... where are they NOW in the decision making:
1) I think they are on hiatus with expanded families and the 'how much longer' is a natural question.  Where they sit and talk about the future with their wives.  Once the season starts, there's less time for these kind of meaty conversations.  I suspect "as long as they let us" may not be a given anymore.  
2) How the 'current' season is going is known by early December.  Usually there's an initial pulse taken after the first three or four episodes.  Then there's sweeps in November.  So, by early December, they will know if the audience 'accepts' the S13 direction (including the S12 fallout), or if there's an unsustainable decline.  While I think Mark had a TON of fans, Crowley has been an antagonist and thus always at risk for death IMO.  Cas, OTOH, is very a beloved protagonist and some may say "enough" just based on finale.  Others will wait till the 'fallout' is evident.  If it's AU!Cas, that's just as 'dead' for some fans as if Misha were gone (and they may find it even MORE insulting).    And then there's the "I'm there if Misha is" crowd.  Which brings me to...
3) The rest of the cast & crew.  If the boys are ready to leave, they'll leave.  If they are debating internally, they may factor in if it's a good time for their 'work family' to end.  
4) Money.  As Jared said, the money is important but not THE driver.  However, if they want a specific outcome financially, this may drive how they approach the next contract negotiations.  
5) What the production company and Network want versus what THEY want.  Jensen SPECIFICALLY mentioned episode count.  NCIS has 24 episodes/season. Arrow has 23. Designated Survivor, a brand new drama, has 21. Would they offer a SINGLE-season-12-episode-ONLY deal (in order to reach 300 and ONLY 300)?  IF they were to do that, the boys would have had to ask for that in the first place.  That would be a little harder to get approvals for.  J2 are beloved but that's quite an exceptional contract, even for the stars IMO.  And neither the network NOR the production company would get the benefit of the "final season" advertising like they did with Smallville. Would they go for something more creative? Like scale back to 13 episode seasons for 2 years?  Or a 12 episode season with a later mini-series.  IDK.  Just, a single season for 12 seems less likely.  The network/studio have something the boys 'want' (getting to 300).  The boys have something the network wants (a steady show).  BOTH could walk away and not be heartbroken if no S14 deal is reached.  BUT both would try for it (I believe).  Finally, it's entirely possible they sign up for a S14/S15.  

 

We will KNOW, IMO,  in January.  If I was to bet, I'd bet on them negotiating either:
1) A one year, short order season because the ratings are down.
2) A two year deal with less episodes so they can have more family time - presuming ratings are stable enough. And "less episodes" might be 19 or 20.  JUST enough to get a larger break mid-season or in hiatus. Conversely two 13 episodes seasons is a handy number too.  

 

**The 'favorite' season question was interesting.  Jared was leaning towards 5.  Jensen said 4 and 9.  BOTH makes sense IMO from first a Sam and then a Dean story line. But I really enjoyed Jensen's question when a fan yelled out "S2, bitches!": "Does this mean we've been disappointing you for a DECADE?"   

Edited June 12, 2017 by SueB

[Wayward Son]

7 minutes ago, SueB said:

2) How the 'current' season is going is known by early December.  Usually there's an initial pulse taken after the first three or four episodes.  Then there's sweeps in November.  So, by early December, they will know if the audience 'accepts' the S13 direction (including the S12 fallout), or if there's an unsustainable decline.  While I think Mark had a TON of fans, Crowley has been an antagonist and thus always at risk for death IMO.  Cas, OTOH, is very a beloved protagonist and some may say "enough" just based on finale.  Others will wait till the 'fallout' is evident.  If it's AU!Cas, that's just as 'dead' for some fans as if Misha were gone (and they may find it even MORE insulting).    And then there's the "I'm there if Misha is" crowd.  Which brings me to...

The bit in bold is definitely me! I wouldn't have been insulted if they'd written Cas / Misha out as I've always accepted he isn't guaranteed to survive the way J2/Sam and Dean are. However, an attempt to replace Cas with some Alt!, as though they mean the main thing is utterly insulting in my eyes. It would basically send the message that the nine years of character development and relationship building were nothing and easily replaced. 

[auntvi]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Finally, it's entirely possible they sign up for a S14/S15.

I kinda hope not. Unless s. 13 is some sort of creative renaissance. It's too late for Supernatural to go out on top; I'm glad it didn't end after 5 seasons, but I don't want it to just slowly lose viewership and fade away.

[companionenvy]

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Besides, they've already done most of the things Companion Envy suggested:  a large part of s.12 focused on other characters and their separate storylines, and it was one of the worst seasons IMO, probably for that very reason:  no real focus, just a bunch of separate (and arguably boring) plots that did all coalesce at the end, but not very satisfactorily.  

I don't think they have, in that the "B" plots with Cas and Crowley were almost all tied to the season arc -- which meant that basically, those scenes came off more as  placeholders to remind us that Lucifer or Kelly Kline were still around, and to fill up non-Winchester time than anything else. What I'm suggesting is that we sometimes get a self-contained Cas plot in which he isn't simply a cog in plot machinery, or even a secondary role in an MOW episode in which he is also taking a role in the hunt, as in Hunter Heroici. 

I also disagree that there isn't enough time in a 42 minute episode for an A and B plot. Plenty of sci-fi/fantasy shows have done it. You probably couldn't juggle as many plots and characters as a show like BSG did while still keeping the main focus on the Winchesters, but I don't see why we couldn't accommodate an A and B plot, especially if the plots were sometimes integrated (i.e, examining two avenues while tracking the same case).

I'm actually not sure I can think of another show -- even a show with one or two clear leads -- where the ensemble cast appeared in as few episodes as Cas and Crowley do. I just rewatched most of Chuck, a fun show, but surely not an unparalleled achievement in television. They sometimes used their cast better than others, but not only Chuck and his love interest Sarah but Chuck's sister and her husband, Chuck's best friend, and even his largely comic relief coworkers showed up almost every week without jeopardizing Chuck's centrality or running out of time for the A-plot of the week. 

[MysteryGuest]

I don't think that having an A and B plot would be an issue, in and of itself, I just don't know that the writers we have now are up to the task.  They had a difficult enough time coming up with an interesting enough A plot.  

They've had Castiel and Crowley for years now.  Two capable actors, well-liked by the majority of fandom, and yet they simply couldn't write anything interesting for them to do.  That's not the fault of the characters, but a fault of the writers.  If they felt that Crowley was getting stale, then don't have him re-playing the same scene all season long with Lucifer.  They could have done anything with his character, turn him human, whatever, just write something interesting.  

While I can see lots of potential still for the show, I don't think the writers have a clue what to do.  This is the first time I've seen Jensen and Jared seriously discuss the end of the show, and I would bet you money that a big part of that is that the writing has gotten so bad.  They can't be challenged by what they've been doing recently.  

[ahrtee]

22 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I don't think they have, in that the "B" plots with Cas and Crowley were almost all tied to the season arc -- which meant that basically, those scenes came off more as  placeholders to remind us that Lucifer or Kelly Kline were still around, and to fill up non-Winchester time than anything else. What I'm suggesting is that we sometimes get a self-contained Cas plot in which he isn't simply a cog in plot machinery, or even a secondary role in an MOW episode in which he is also taking a role in the hunt, as in Hunter Heroici. 

 

They may have been tied to the season arc (including Mary with the BMoL) but they were still acting independently and apart from the Winchesters for most of the time. You can also count most of season 9, where Cas had his own agenda and his own battles.  His SL and the Winchesters' were linked by Metatron and Gadreel, but Cas was on his own for most of the season.    

I honestly don't understand why a separate storyline with no connection whatsoever to the Winchesters or the rest of the show (which seems to be what you were saying with not wanting Cas to be a "cog in plot machinery" or a secondary role in a Winchester hunt) would help anything except giving more to the Cas fans.  Not being snarky, just really confused.  It seems to me that you want two separate shows:  one Winchester, one Cas, with occasional guest shots between them.  And while that may be an interesting prospect (and I'd probably watch both), that's not what I want in SPN.  What I enjoyed most about it was the way everything *was* integrated.  Back in the early seasons, everything (eventually) connected, even things that seemed to be one-shots (like the Croatoan virus showing up years later).  Granted, it hasn't been well done lately, but there's still a common thread that ties together almost all the episodes.  

At the risk of being disgustingly pretentious, to me SPN (unlike most other episodic shows) is a book with each episode a chapter that adds to the story and our understanding of the characters (and hopefully will come to a satisfying conclusion).  If I'm understanding what you're saying, you want a series of short stories that just use the same characters/universe but aren't otherwise connected, which is what most TV series do.  It's not necessarily bad, just not why I watch SPN.

So (as I've said before) I'd love to see all the characters more integrated into the SLs.  If the episode is done well, I like an occasional episode focusing on one character (see: Cas in The Man Who Would Be King).  But I don't want that as a regular part of the show.  Again, JMO and my preference.  I understand that others may want something else.  I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

[Wynne88]

Quote

- I think Jared WAS testing the waters with "300".  It was an awkward silence after that from the audience.  So I don't think he got positive feedback for that as an ending point.  

I thought he was a little surprised by the lack of a response.  In the past, when they've floated the idea of stopping, there have been a lot of very loud protests.  The lack of it this time was kind of strange.

[SueB]

14 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

I thought he was a little surprised by the lack of a response.  In the past, when they've floated the idea of stopping, there have been a lot of very loud protests.  The lack of it this time was kind of strange.

I think it was silent because he phrased it differently.  Like he really meant it.  I think they were stunned.  

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

I think it was silent because he phrased it differently.  Like he really meant it.  I think they were stunned.  

That was my impression as well. I think it also didn't help when later Jensen told Jared if he won the Powerball, he'd have to buy out Jensen's contract. That is the most serious talk I've seen them have about ending the show. I was kind of like , 'Whoaaa".

[companionenvy]

6 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I honestly don't understand why a separate storyline with no connection whatsoever to the Winchesters or the rest of the show (which seems to be what you were saying with not wanting Cas to be a "cog in plot machinery" or a secondary role in a Winchester hunt) would help anything except giving more to the Cas fans.  Not being snarky, just really confused.  It seems to me that you want two separate shows:  one Winchester, one Cas, with occasional guest shots between them.

I don't want two different shows, and I don't think a hypothetical Cas plot would have zero connection to the Winchester's story (and, I realize now that I phrased it ambiguously, but I meant that I 'd be fine with Cas getting his own plots OR having a secondary role on a Winchester hunt - either would be fine). But once a universe starts expanding a bit, connections don't always have to be so direct. Many of the characters on Game of Thrones haven't met for years (or ever), but they aren't in two separate shows. The same was true, to a lesser extent, on Battlestar, where we might have an Adama-led military plot, Roslin and her political intrigue, and Baltar and Six psychodrama in the same episode, all relatively separate. 

To use the example of shows that have a clear lead or leads, as opposed to a genuine ensemble show like BSG, on Chuck, you might have Chuck dealing with spy drama while his friend Morgan dealt with a comic version of Chuck's predicament at the Best Buy-clone that served as Chuck's spy cover - and often in a way that unwittingly brought the store in danger from the actual bad guys.  On a far more serious show, the Americans, all of the characters are connected in that they are  tied to the world of espionage, but though the plots sometimes intersect in profound and obvious ways, there are plenty of important and emotionally resonant subplots that matter for reasons other than their direct effect on the lives of Philip and Elizabeth Jennings. 

Every show has to negotiate the role of supporting/ensemble cast somewhat differently. I guess what I'd like for Cas, specifically -- but also other characters, as appropriate -- would be for him to be allowed to be based in the bunker more consistently. That wouldn't mean he would go on every hunt with Sam and Dean, but there would be more diversity in the way he was used. We could occasionally follow him on a separate case that turned out to have a link to Sam and Dean's plot, or to the arc. Sometimes we could have a bigger group on a hunt -- as they did this year on the episode where they went after Ramiel, but in comparatively non-epic, MOW situations. And yeah, sometimes Cas could be away tracking Kelly Kline. But at this point, the show has to struggle to invent reasons to keep people like Cas and Mary offscreen, to the detriment of their characters. In Mary's case, I think a large part of the reason the character wound up being so poorly received is that in their fear of fundamental change, Dabb and co had to let her stay away far longer than was sympathetic or even logical. I maintain there were ways of integrating her and letting her spend more of the season living in the bunker and hunting with or in parallel to the boys without making it the Mary show, or even making her anything approaching a co-lead. 

But now it seems like real spoiler-ish discussion is resuming, so maybe we should stop or take this to another thread :)