Spoilers With Speculation

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

by Sproutifer (tm Catrox, I

That's tm G-Man. I wish it was mine!

[MysteryGuest]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

TBH, I actually don't have a problem with Sam and Dean being guest stars at this point. I think the show has ran the gambit on them already.  IMO, the show is stagnating and has been for years and largely because their unwillingness to shift focus away from Sam and Dean. Don't get me wrong, I love both Sam and Dean and I don't want them gone from the show. But, I do think they're story has been told and it would be smart of the show to start telling some of the other characters' stories.

While I enjoy episodes with secondary characters like Jody or Donna, etc., I watch for Sam and Dean.  I don't think their whole story has been told yet, personally.  I just think the writers we have are unable to tell any stories well.  I would be very disappointed with even less Sam and Dean, and would probably stop watching at that point.  I'm here for the brothers' saga.  Without that, it's a completely different show, IMO.

[nightwing877]

19 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

While I enjoy episodes with secondary characters like Jody or Donna, etc., I watch for Sam and Dean.  I don't think their whole story has been told yet, personally.  I just think the writers we have are unable to tell any stories well.  I would be very disappointed with even less Sam and Dean, and would probably stop watching at that point.  I'm here for the brothers' saga.  Without that, it's a completely different show, IMO.

Less Sam and Dean I get from a long running shows, the actors may wish less screentime so they can spend more time with their families - doing 23 episodes for 12 + years can be alot. Why I felt SPN should stop doing 23 episodes and reduce it to 16-18. 

[ahrtee]

6 hours ago, Goldmoon said:

In the final two episodes of the season, aired back-to-back tonight, Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) face off against two major foes: The British Men of Letters and Lucifer.  But pure plot isn't the only draw.  Like some of the best episodes before it, this one will get a little heady.  "Finales, by definition, can't go too crazy," executive producer Andrew Dabb concedes.  "But I will say this:  It's by far the most meta finale we've ever done.  There are some twists coming that we've never done before." - Samantha Highfill, EW

"Heady?" As in ... IN someone's head?

Was it @catrox14 who speculated that the last season (or last few seasons) will all turn out to be a dream (anyone remember the shows Dallas or  Newhart?)

I could vote for that here..so all the stupid and OOC things that have happened in the last few years are all taking place in someone’s head instead.  (I’ve got some thoughts on who, how and why, but that should probably be fanfic instead.)

Personally, I’d like a retcon back to season 2 or 3, and go back to the characters as they were before the mountains of angst and betrayals.  So, for the past 10 years or so, the Winchesters have been living Chuck’s unedited first drafts (because, seriously?  The Apocalypse?  Angels being dicks?  Purgatory?  Family coming back from the dead (over and over), the Leviathan, the Mark of Cain, God’s Sister??  AMELIA???) 

In my version, Chuck has written himself into a corner and so finally called Metatron to critique and edit; and (at his suggestion), he agrees to rip up all the pages on the last 10 years and start over again.  (I’d suggest he gives the boys the memories of 10 years of hunting together as partners, since they’re not 20-somethings anymore.) They’d be back to “saving people, hunting things” without the excess baggage.  (They could even toss in Cas and Crowley as human hunters they work with!) 

Fanfic, anyone?

[SueB]

So Jim Michael sent a tweet about just having watched the finale and that fans were going to love it.  My instinctive response was "I'm scared" (after seeing Ruth's video). Jim "liked" my response.  Which means... WHAT?!_)(*_&!)*%   Actually, He probably just likes someone responding. IDK.   *frets*

So on the "grim" side we've got:
- Mark P. saying "gold eyes" and that if we didn't hate Lucifer before we would now.  Now this was a while ago.  We don't have much history of Mark P spoiling stuff so I can't really judge his comment.  When I saw Rowena's red hair I thought "aha! He makes us think he killed Rowena!" But... with Ruth's comments, I'm not so sure... So.. this remains unsettled in my mind.
- Misha saying he didn't want to be at a Con to deal with the fall-out.  Well shit.  Misha's not much of a troll.  In fact, he rarely TALKS about the show at conventions.  His M&G's are 100% Misha stuff like GISHWHES, Random Acts, etc..(because that's what people ASK him about and he doesn't turn it around to the show topics... in fact he seems to really avoid show topics). So... this is suitably alarming.  But if it was Cas... I think he'd be silent.  He has NO EGO (I swear... he doesn't like to focus on him except for self-depreciating comments).  He's smart enough to know if something happened to Cas, it would be a major ISSUE, but I think he wouldn't mention it before it happened.  SO, oddly, I think his comments make Cas more likely to be safe ... but there's going to be something that pisses us off to get him to say this. And it's going to be controversial.  Jody is a potential, but Kim Rhodes has flat-out says she survives (and I think the photos bear that out).  Mary is obvious but the story would be so prematurely ended -- I just don't see the point.  Perhaps it has something to do with Kelly but we're really prepared for her death.  So, Misha leaves me confused.
- Ruth, OTOH, Ruth's comments are what really disturbs me.  See, I'm about 99.9% certain she's NOT in the finale.  And like Misha, I don't think she'd say anything about ruffling feathers if it was about ROWENA.  But if she's NOT in the last two episodes, she clearly KNOWS the finale.  Which is odd.  So, she must have gotten the intel from Kim or they told her that it's gonna look like she's dead but she's not.  So... it's back to "ruffled feathers".  I don't think she's trolling (i.e. that it's about Cas). I think she means "offended".  Welp.  I TRUST Ruth's judgement on what fans do/do not want. Shes had a ton of fan interaction and is social media savvy.  This leads me to.... it's gonna piss off people more than some routine narrative.  Something disrespectful to women, or disrespectful to a fandom faction seems to come to mind.  
- Jensen being "quiet" and Jared saying he was surprised they "went there".  I'm not sure Jensen is super quiet because he DID mention everyone in peril and that seems to be happening.  Jared's surprise... could be a death but... I don't know... I'd venture some sort of reality warp that erases something IMPORTANT to fandom.  THAT would piss people off.  

[Jonesy]

Strongly disagree with the few who think Cas doesn't have story and not integrated in the show.  Have always greatly enjoyed the various Cas spins thru the years and Team Free Will is always tremendous fun.  In fact I absolutely LOVED the emphasis the show has done on Cas's relationship with the boys this year.  Well done Dabb!  The only deal breaker for me with the show is if they killed or made evil any of Team Free Will--including Cas.  Having Cas on is always a plus for the show.  Without a doubt.

[rue721]

16 minutes ago, SueB said:

See, I'm about 99.9% certain she's NOT in the finale.

What do you think is going on with the lock of red hair that Lucifer is carrying around?

To me, it looked like some kind of spell ingredient, so Rowena wouldn't necessarily have to be around for him to want or use that. But you'd think we'd at least see Lucifer taking the lock of hair from her? (If it's hers).

Or when you say "finale," do you mean E23 specifically, and think that the pics of Lucifer walking around with that lock of hair were from E22?

16 minutes ago, SueB said:

I'd venture some sort of reality warp that erases something IMPORTANT to fandom.

Maybe related to Death or Billie?

Nightmare spec:

Mary kills the boys and then kills herself, to send them all to Heaven. But instead of Heaven, they land in the Empty.

Edited May 16, 2017 by rue721

[SueB]

14 minutes ago, rue721 said:

What do you think is going on with the lock of red hair that Lucifer is carrying around?

To me, it looked like some kind of spell ingredient, so Rowena wouldn't necessarily have to be around for him to want or use that. But you'd think we'd at least see Lucifer taking the lock of hair from her? (If it's hers).

Or when you say "finale," do you mean E23 specifically, and think that the pics of Lucifer walking around with that lock of hair were from E22?

Maybe related to Death or Billie?

Nightmare spec:

Mary kills the boys and then kills herself, to send them all to Heaven. But instead of Heaven, they land in the Empty.

Feel free to unthink that thought!

I think we see a bloody room & Rowena's lock of hair but no dead body.  And she's not really dead.  Because I don't expect that to be an offscreen event.  

[MysteryGuest]

Well, I guess the writers and Dabb have done one thing right...they have us speculating like crazy as to what's going to happen.  I don't know that they've ever said someone was going to die, and then not actually go through with it, so we must be going to lose someone.  But who, that's the question.  At this point, I don't think killing Garth would make any sense, so I doubt it's him.  That leaves Claire, Mary, Jody and Cas...with a possibility of Rowena.  Who else is there?  Maybe it really will be Lucifer and because everyone assumes he's going to be back next season, that will be the surprise ending.  I'd be onboard for that.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

I wasn't blaming anyone. I think the show has a lot of limitations right now and it's trying it's best to compensate for all those limitations while also not wanting to show it's limitations. Jared and Jensen want--and deserve--more time off. To accomplish that, they have to reduce their screen time somehow. Cass and Crowley running their own separate storylines is one way they've done it. Whether you like those storylines or not is a different matter.

TBH, I actually don't have a problem with Sam and Dean being guest stars at this point. I think the show has ran the gambit on them already.  IMO, the show is stagnating and has been for years and largely because their unwillingness to shift focus away from Sam and Dean. Don't get me wrong, I love both Sam and Dean and I don't want them gone from the show. But, I do think their story has been told and it would be smart of the show to start telling some of the other characters' stories.

There are plenty of stories yet to be told with the brothers. For me, Supernatural = Dean & Sam Winchester's journey and I'm not interested in watching a show in which they are not the central characters. I have felt from the first couple episodes this season that a spin off, or at least a Winchester-lite Supernatural is Dabb's dream, and the show has suffered for it. Maybe it's TPTB's wish as well - hedging their bets for the day that J2 decide they are done. I can say with certainty though, that they'll have one less viewer in me.

Edited May 16, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Jonesy]

9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

There are plenty of stories yet to be told with the brothers. For me, Supernatural = Dean & Sam Winchester's journey and I'm not interested in watching a show in which they are not the central characters. I have felt from the first couple episodes this season that a spin off, or at least a Winchester-lite Supernatural is Dabb's dream, and the show has suffered for it. Maybe it's TPTB's wish as well - hedging their bets for the day that J2 decide they are done. I can say with certainty though, that they'll have one less viewer in me.

Never bought the argument that the brothers are NOT central characters any year including this year.  Even used a little less the last few years they have the great chunk of screen time and screen action.  The only ones in every show and they are still clearly the heroes.  Even Lucifer and baby only has validity and importance once it effects the boys world...it ends going thru the boy's prism...clearly.

[companionenvy]

Responding to Jakes's post in the All Episodes Thread.

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

TBH, I actually don't have a problem with Sam and Dean being guest stars at this point. I think the show has ran the gambit on them already.  IMO, the show is stagnating and has been for years and largely because their unwillingness to shift focus away from Sam and Dean. Don't get me wrong, I love both Sam and Dean and I don't want them gone from the show. But, I do think their story has been told and it would be smart of the show to start telling some of the other characters' stories.

I go back and forth on this, but I tend to fall on the side of what you are saying here - with one exception (which I'll address in a moment.) I just like good characters. I'm okay with other characters taking the stage sometimes as long as they are interesting to me. The problem is that typically the characters that I find interesting don't necessarily resonate with everyone. My departure from what you said above is that I actually thought that the show last season had a good season and felt rejuvenated. But I look at the seasons that I've liked post Kripke - and even some Kripke seasons - vs the ones I didn't really like and it's usually interesting characters that do it for me.*

For example one of Kripke's seasons that was very up and down for me was season 3, and I think that's because I was never really a fan of Ruby or Bela, so when they were the focus of some episodes, I generally lost interest. And there weren't really that many other peripheral characters in that season to compensate for them - I did enjoy the Ghostafcers and the return of Henrick however, but they didn't make up for Bela and Ruby.

Contrast that with season 7. I loved Frank and I loved the various leviathans - especially Chet, Dick Roman, and Joyce and George. I was okay when episodes focused some on those characters, because I found them interesting. With seasons I don't like as much - like season 8 - I just didn't connect with the recurring or bit characters as much, so there was little to replace the bad in that season. Benny could have been interesting, but wasn't as complex as I would've liked... and Amelia - just ugh. We had Aaron and his Golem, but that was just one episode - not enough to save things for me.

I think season 11 - and also somewhat season 10 - was better for me partly because there were some characters I loved and I didn't mind them getting their own development. In season 10, I loved Marie and Maeve, Metatron, and the beginning of Rowena (though it took me a bit to warm up to her), but Cole was a bust for me. In season 11, there was Sully and his gang, Eileen and Mildred, Caesar and Jesse, and Baby! We had more Metatron and we had Chuck/God. "Don't Call Me Shurley" was one of my favorite episodes of the series despite not focusing on Sam and Dean. That's because for me the characterization of Chuck and Metatron in that episode was amazing. Much of the episode was sitting and talking, yet I still found it compelling.

And I think that's more of my problem this season. It's not that Sam and Dean aren't the entire focus. It's that some of the characters we're focusing on just aren't as engaging for me. The idea of Mary was interesting, but I'm having a hard time connecting with Mary herself - even if I do understand where the character is coming from. Lady LadyPenelopeCreighton-WardWannabe... just nope - don't care that she has a kid, don't want to see her developed at all. Unlike Metatron - who I loved to hate and found fascinating - Lady Toni I just want to see die, die, die already. Same with Headmistress of Death from the BMoL Academy of Despair. Mick had potential... so of course he's dead. Ditto Eileen (Grrr). Even Lucifer got annoying when he went into rockstar What'sHisName. (I like him better now that he's back in Nick). Kelly.... zzzzzzz.

So basically what I'm saying is that I'm okay with sometimes having episodes - maybe even small arcs - that focus on other characters, even non-TeamFreeWill characters, as long as I find those characters interesting. Unfortunately that's not necessarily easy for the show to do, because opinions on those other characters usually vary greatly, and so not everyone is going to be happy from the start, so the risk and the chance for dislike is greater.

Also for me, I don't want to lose any more characters I do like in the upcoming finale episodes. This season can still end positively for me, (because I seem to be liking it more than many here), but not if we lose any more Eileens. And that means no dead Jesse or Caesar! Or Jody! Or Garth! Or Mr Fizzles! (kidding ; ) )** So the upcoming death better not hurt that much is all I'm saying. I'm on the fence, and it could go either way.

* The one main exception to this for me was season 4. Season 4 had some interesting recurring characters, but that didn't necessarily help me overcome the grimness. Also some of those interesting characters were developed well for me (Castiel). Others not as much (Uriel and Alastair)

** As for Garth and whether or not he's safe. Garth is one half a Dabb creation, so maybe Dabb will let him stay around? ... Don't know about Mr. Fizzles though... : P

Oh, my brain just went to Garth trying to get through to Spawnifer via Mr. Fizzles... "Now Spawny, Mr. Fizzles knows when you're being a LI-AR." Spawnifer: *cries* Heh, maybe Mr Fizzles would be enough to make the kid go straight ; )

...because come on, Mr. Fizzles has to be at least a little evil, right?

Edited May 16, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[Geordiegirl1967]

10 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

While I enjoy episodes with secondary characters like Jody or Donna, etc., I watch for Sam and Dean.  I don't think their whole story has been told yet, personally.  I just think the writers we have are unable to tell any stories well.  I would be very disappointed with even less Sam and Dean, and would probably stop watching at that point.  I'm here for the brothers' saga.  Without that, it's a completely different show, IMO.

I totally agree. SPN is Sam & Dean's story. When it stops being that it's done as a show. If it became the Cas show or the Wayward Daughters show it would cease to be SPN and I (and most fans I believe) would stop watching. 

So the trend this year towards S&D being guest stars has been the main reason for the general dissatisfaction with s12. I know opinions vary but the consensus I see is that almost none of the main factions are happy. Cas fans: not enough Cas and not a good story. Dean fans: Dean has been sidelined. Sam fans: Sam hasn't been allowed to bond with Mary, shown unsympathetically re mol etc. Brother bond fans: where do I even start with the bro bond free, S&D lite debacle s12 has been. 

I agree with MG. S&Ds story is nowhere near played out. It's just that this crop of writers have no clue how to write for them, or indeed any character. But when you can't write for your leads - particularly ones with such a compelling back story, a powerful bond, huge onscreen chemistry and played by fantastic actors - then you might as well pack up and go home. 

Edited May 16, 2017 by Geordiegirl1967

[Geordiegirl1967]

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

There are plenty of stories yet to be told with the brothers. For me, Supernatural = Dean & Sam Winchester's journey and I'm not interested in watching a show in which they are not the central characters. I have felt from the first couple episodes this season that a spin off, or at least a Winchester-lite Supernatural is Dabb's dream, and the show has suffered for it. Maybe it's TPTB's wish as well - hedging their bets for the day that J2 decide they are done. I can say with certainty though, that they'll have one less viewer in me.

Totally agree. I think that has been part of Dabbs plan this year, but p***ing in your own bath in the hope someone will let you have a nice new one is hardly good strategy!

[Demented Daisy]

4 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Brother bond fans: where do I even start with the bro bond free, S&D lite debacle s12 has been. 

Taking to Unpopular Opinion/Bitterness.

[gonzosgirrl]

I've been wishing praying joking about S12 being Dean's fever dream for a while now, but this morning it occurred to me - maybe it's Sam's dream. Maybe Lady Twat's bullet did more damage than we know, or her mind-rape/torture session has been ongoing since 12x01. So many things would be more plausible - the overall characterization of Dean, Sam getting all the big-bad kills (except for Hitler, which was turned into a running joke), Mary being nothing like Dean's memory of her, which is the only 'Mary' Sam ever knew. Hmmmm.

Edited May 16, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[DittyDotDot]

10 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

While I enjoy episodes with secondary characters like Jody or Donna, etc., I watch for Sam and Dean.  I don't think their whole story has been told yet, personally.  I just think the writers we have are unable to tell any stories well.  I would be very disappointed with even less Sam and Dean, and would probably stop watching at that point.  I'm here for the brothers' saga.  Without that, it's a completely different show, IMO.

Taken to TPTB thread.

13 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I've been wishing praying joking about S12 being Dean's fever dream for a while now, but this morning it occurred to me - maybe it's Sam's dream. Maybe Lady Twat's bullet did more damage than we know, or her mind-rape/torture session has been ongoing since 12x01. So many things would be more plausible - the overall characterization of Dean, Sam getting all the big-bad kills (except for Hitler, which was turned into a running joke), Mary being nothing like Dean's memory of her, which is the only 'Mary' Sam ever knew. Hmmmm.

I'm fine with an episode that turns out to be a dream or something, but I'd be really disappointed if they said the entire season was a dream. All that investment to say it was all pointless at the eleventh hour would annoy me.

[ILoveReading]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I've been wishing praying joking about S12 being Dean's fever dream for a while now, but this morning it occurred to me - maybe it's Sam's dream. Maybe Lady Twat's bullet did more damage than we know, or her mind-rape/torture session has been ongoing since 12x01. So many things would be more plausible - the overall characterization of Dean, Sam getting all the big-bad kills (except for Hitler, which was turned into a running joke), Mary being nothing like Dean's memory of her, which is the only 'Mary' Sam ever knew. Hmmmm.

I wondered that too.  (Jared did say that he was surprised they went there), but if its Sam's fever dream, even if it wasn't the writers intention its going to show that Sam doesn't think very highly of Dean's skills since his hallucinating of Dean shows him either not showing up and being incompetent when he is there.

I like @catrox14 theory best that Dean is still in isolation and we are seeing some of his worst nightmares.  IMO, things fit Dean better.  His mom rejecting him, his brother not needing him, losing Cas (if Cas does end up dying). 

[Diane]

[Geordiegirl1967]

who is Sean Maguire?

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

who is Sean Maguire?

He's a fellow actor! He played Robin Hood on Once Upon a Time! Not really sure why fans want him and Misha to meet though.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I wondered that too.  (Jared did say that he was surprised they went there), but if its Sam's fever dream, even if it wasn't the writers intention its going to show that Sam doesn't think very highly of Dean's skills since his hallucinating of Dean shows him either not showing up and being incompetent when he is there.

If it's all a nightmare or a hallucination, I REALLY! hope that it's Dean's-and not just because of this quote, but also because I want the Mary that we've been given to be Dean's worst nightmare-especially since that's basically what she's truly been for me during this whole season.

[Geordiegirl1967]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'd be really disappointed if they said the entire season was a dream. All that investment to say it was all pointless at the eleventh hour would annoy me.

Oh no! Not the 'Bobby was in the shower' 'it was all a dream' cheat. I hate that almost as much as time jumps. Anyone remember the end of St Elsewhere? I'll never get those few years of my life back!

[Diane]

"Bobby in the shower" and the St Elsewhere end both sucked!

[Myrelle]

I'd honestly take this entire season as being a fever dream of Dean's any day over it being reality. It would be a whole lot easier to swallow than any kind of reality IMO also; AND it would make saying good-bye to it for good that much easier for me, too.

[ILoveReading]

I'm not normally a fan of the whole "it's a dream," but IMO, this season has been so poor both character wise and story wise I would prefer it b wiped out.

[ahrtee]

7 minutes ago, Diane said:

"Bobby in the shower" and the St Elsewhere end both sucked!

But the end of Newhart was probably the best ever!  And I recall a Deep Space Nine episode that made it seem like the whole series was the creation of a black writer (ie, Capt. Sisko) in the 1950s who wound up being locked up as a madman.  So there are ways to make it work (assuming, of course, you have good writers...)  

[AwesomO4000]

5 minutes ago, Diane said:

"Bobby in the shower" and the St Elsewhere end both sucked!

Agreed. Newhart pulled it off though.

If the final episodes weren't so jam-packed, I could almost see this show being able to pull it off. I agree with those who say that it would make more sense as Dean's fever dream though, since it is more his fears. However, I'm not sure where they would have started for him - Solitary? Sam's would have started from Lady LadyPenelopeCreighton-WardWannabe's mind screw (literally... and ew).

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, Diane said:

"Bobby in the shower" and the St Elsewhere end both sucked!

I loved Bobby in the shower myself because THANK GOD they undid all the terrible. I didn't care how stupid it was TBH.

Newhart was gold standard. 

Heh, I do wonder how Dean making Cas a mixtape factors into his fever dream though...

[ahrtee]

5 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

If the final episodes weren't so jam-packed, I could almost see this show being able to pull it off. I agree with those who say that it would make more sense as Dean's fever dream though, since it is more his fears. However, I'm not sure where they would have started for him - Solitary? Sam's would have started from Lady LadyPenelopeCreighton-WardWannabe's mind screw (literally... and ew).

How about Sam in the panic room in season 4?  And the story was Future!Cas had sent him visions of what would happen if he kept on with the demon blood and killed Lilith.  We could even have Gen as a guest star.

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

But the end of Newhart was probably the best ever!  And I recall a Deep Space Nine episode that made it seem like the whole series was the creation of a black writer (ie, Capt. Sisko) in the 1950s who wound up being locked up as a madman.  So there are ways to make it work (assuming, of course, you have good writers...)  

Is that what that ending was?? I have never understood it to this day! That makes sense now! Thank you!

[ahrtee]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Is that what that ending was?? I have never understood it to this day! That makes sense now! Thank you!

Well, it wasn't the end of the series, because the show went on for a few years after that.  I think they deliberately left it vague so the viewers could always wonder.  (Or maybe they stuck in some kind of explainer that I just don't remember.  It was a long time ago.)

[Demented Daisy]

I hate narrative cheats.  

And unless Dabb wants his own Annie Wilkes, I highly recommend he not try it.  ;-)

[ahrtee]

Just now, Demented Daisy said:

I hate narrative cheats.  

I do too, but sometimes when you've written yourself into a corner (and I think they've been there for quite a while now) it's the only way out.  And it can be done well so that it works, even if you don't like the way they get there.  

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

 Annie Wilkes,

Maybe Becky kidnapped Sam and Dean and is forcing them to act out her fan fiction.

[Demented Daisy]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

I do too, but sometimes when you've written yourself into a corner (and I think they've been there for quite a while now) it's the only way out.  And it can be done well so that it works, even if you don't like the way they get there.  

Perhaps, but I don't think they've written themselves into a corner this season.  

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Demented Daisy said:

Perhaps, but I don't think they've written themselves into a corner this season.  

I think they did with the nephlim.   What exactly are they going to do with him?  Send him into the unknown never to be heard from again or have him grow up over hiatus and look exactly like Mark P.

Since these writers aren't exactly creative it would either be a rehash of the Amara storyline, or a re-telling of s5. 

IMO, the best thing they could do with that storyline is just make it disappear.

[ahrtee]

Just now, Demented Daisy said:

Perhaps, but I don't think they've written themselves into a corner this season.  

I think they've been edging towards the corner since the Apocalypse (seriously?  How do you get past something like that?) and they've been pulling more and more complicated and OTT storylines out of their asses since then.  Some of them have worked, some haven't.  So far, they've come up with at least one idea per season that keeps people watching, but it's generally not enough for a whole season so they keep adding more, less interesting storylines to fill the space.  

12 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Maybe Becky kidnapped Sam and Dean and is forcing them to act out her fan fiction.

So she's Amelia?  That could explain a lot! 

[Aeryn13]

I really, truly hate "psych, it was all just a dream moments" because it makes me feel like I totally wasted my time. However since I definitely did waste my time for this Season, I wouldn`t care if it was the Easter Bunny`s dream and everything we saw didn`t really happen. Though, I do not see this happening. At all. I believe the Season is genuine. A dumpster fire but genuine. And it will stay that way.

From the writer`s side there is always a lot of hyperbole in describing the Finale so I don`t take "twists and turns we never did before" seriously. What I take more into account is a couple of actors kinda wanting to brace fandom for impact, if you will. Obviously the show is gonna do something certain actors feel will be quite divisive. Going by what Mark P. said probably done by Lucifer. And the likeliest candidates are Cas and Mary. Can`t actually see a "oh, Dean/Sam may have died" cliffhanger here. In some kind of "peril" sure but not fake-dying yet again.  

Now, Mary, I wouldn`t care about and Cas, I don`t believe we`re losing longterm so it might just be another case of the writers envisioning a much greater reaction to something they think is radically shocking to the audience. When the actual thing will be "eh, will be resolved five minutes in the Season Premiere anyway". And if they don`t know that after the treatment they gave her this Season that the Mary character has lost like a gazillion popularity points, they are deaf, dumb and blind. She was a much more well-liked character before they brought her back. 

[companionenvy]

They could depower the nephil (sorry, my knowledge of Hebrew still revolts at calling a singular entity "a nephilim") and leave him to be raised as an ordinary child after all, although I don't think they will. They could also not depower him, but still leave us with the idea that he has to grow up and be raised right before whatever future Cas saw could possibly come to pass. Or they could age him up and just have him be another player to add to the mix for a while - and they could always kill him off or send him off on some mission in heaven or hell if they want to write him out of the show. 

I do think it is possible that the "you" who saves Cas is a future version of the nephil. In any case, I'm pretty confident this season won't go the "it was all a dream" route. 

[catrox14]

OH here's a swerve!

Maybe each and every character is having their own fever dream/hallucination/alternate reality and those are crashing into each other. Like they are all on a shared wavelength of celestial intent that was the "cosmic consequences".

Dean: Fear of losing his skills as a hunter;  of letting Sam down; of forgetting who he is and what family was; of disappointing Mary by being a hunter and why she's rejected him

Sam: desiring to finish off all the monsters so he and Dean can have normal lives; need to bond with the mother he never knew so he'll join with her in the cause of ridding the world of monsters;

Cas: remembering what happened to Lily Sunder's child and trying to make up for letting Lucifer possess him and upset that Ghuck basically ignored him, so Cas thinks Ghuck is disappointed with him more than Lucifer; so he's going to fix it all by raising Lucifer's spawn into a good child because then Ghuck/Dad will FINALLY talk to him and approve of him.

Crowley: dreams of vengeance against Lucifer by taking his child and raising it to be more powerful than Lucifer himself; but the reality is he wants a Gavin replacement via Sproutifer (tm GMan),

Lucifer: was put back in the Cage before the boys were captured and he's seeing hallucinations of how he can influence his child enough to take over the world even because he's really a dead beat dad. 

Edited May 16, 2017 by catrox14

[SueB]

On the "it's all a nightmare/dream/whatever", I'd say "not likely".  To put it crassly, Dean got laid (twice) .. he wouldn't put that in a nightmare.  And neither would Sam.  A nightmare would be much worse.  

I wonder if whatever happened with Cas and the nephilim is part of the cosmic consequences.  Or the Angels demanded he personally kill the nephilim because of Billy? OTOH, I think Cas seemed to be doing everything he did of his own free will.  He WANTED another solution but couldn't find one.  And when left to his own devices, he came up with the most "humane" way (kill them enroute to heaven).  Until he "saw the future".  

That's the part that stumps me -- what FUTURE did Cas see? Suddenly Yoda comes to mind: "Always in motion is the future."  Cas had to have seen a POSSIBLE future.  Even God let free will change destiny -- like, all the time.  I hope we get something about that.  

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

They could depower the nephil (sorry, my knowledge of Hebrew still revolts at calling a singular entity "a nephilim") and leave him to be raised as an ordinary child after all, although I don't think they will. They could also not depower him, but still leave us with the idea that he has to grow up and be raised right before whatever future Cas saw could possibly come to pass. Or they could age him up and just have him be another player to add to the mix for a while - and they could always kill him off or send him off on some mission in heaven or hell if they want to write him out of the show. 

I do think it is possible that the "you" who saves Cas is a future version of the nephil. In any case, I'm pretty confident this season won't go the "it was all a dream" route. 

Oh, I agree they're not going with the "dream thing" (though I'd kind of like that for the series ending...having them reset back to a time when they were all happy: "peace when you are done"...)

I don't think they can depower the nephilim (which appears to be both singular and plural) because they've already suggested it and Cas refused.  Similarly, it would be a rehash of quite a few SLs (Amara and Jesse, in particular) if they just let him grow up/age rapidly/try to train him right); not that rehashing SLs has ever stopped them before.  But I think they'd at least *try* to give it (what they think might be) a slightly different twist.  

I think it's most likely that he'll be aged and the whole season will be: is he good (as Cas believes) or bad (as Lucifer thinks).  I'm guessing they'll have a few ambiguous actions on his part before they make a definite declaration of what side he's on.  

52 minutes ago, SueB said:

I wonder if whatever happened with Cas and the nephilim is part of the cosmic consequences.  Or the Angels demanded he personally kill the nephilim because of Billy? OTOH, I think Cas seemed to be doing everything he did of his own free will.  He WANTED another solution but couldn't find one.  And when left to his own devices, he came up with the most "humane" way (kill them enroute to heaven).  Until he "saw the future".  

That's the part that stumps me -- what FUTURE did Cas see? Suddenly Yoda comes to mind: "Always in motion is the future."  Cas had to have seen a POSSIBLE future.  Even God let free will change destiny -- like, all the time.  I hope we get something about that.  

I'd like them to address the question of cosmic consequences, and think Luci Jr. would make a good flashpoint for that, but I'm not sure how that would work.  I'd like to think the creation of the nephilim was the "cosmic consequence" in the first place, but he was conceived *before* Billie was killed**, so, nope.  Maybe having the boys *not* kill the kid (because they were still alive to interfere) is what caused the problem?  IIRC, Billie's threat about consequences was aimed at the Winchesters and the fact that they were still alive, and had nothing to do with Cas.  

I also agree with the question about free will that @SueB mentioned.  That's been pretty much the only constant thread running since season 5, and they keep bringing it up again.  There has to be some kind of a payoff eventually.  (*I hope.*)

 

**ETA:  I just checked the transcript, and the threatened "cosmic consequence" was for "breaking the pact" of agreeing to go with Billie to The Empty, not for killing her; but it was still after the conception.  The question then becomes, does the cosmic consequence transfer to Cas (because he was the one who actually broke the pact, not the Winchesters); and that was never addressed.  

Edited May 16, 2017 by ahrtee
fact-checking.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, SueB said:

On the "it's all a nightmare/dream/whatever", I'd say "not likely".  To put it crassly, Dean got laid (twice) .. he wouldn't put that in a nightmare.  And neither would Sam.  A nightmare would be much worse.  

Not everything in fever dreams/hallucinations/nightmares are 100% unpleasant. And if this is actually Dean under some magical spell works like Sam was, then pleasure is mixed up with pain.

IFor Dean the sex could be the pleasant part, be it the diner waitress, the cowboy bar waitress (although it's really unclear to me whether he had the full on actual sex with her), and having fun letting loose by riding Larry the Mechanical Bull. 

7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I don't think they can depower the nephilim (which appears to be both singular and plural) because they've already suggested it and Cas refused.

I don't think it was Cas  himself efusing. It was Kelly first, and then IMO, Sproutifer (TM G-Man) influencing Cas to not allow it.

[rue721]

23 minutes ago, SueB said:

That's the part that stumps me -- what FUTURE did Cas see?

Speaking of dreams, I think something like MLK's dream. Cas was probably seeing angels and humans treating each other as friends and equals.

I'm still really, really dubious that the vision came directly from the baby, though. It's still a fetus, it hasn't ever seen the world. How could it create a vision of a world (any world) when it has never even been outside the womb?

[catrox14]

Here's a really out there swerve and wild ass spec:

What if somehow Cas' grace got mixed up with Lucifer's when he was possessing Cas and that's actually partly Cas' child "genetically" speaking as angels go. I mean if this show has gone this far, why not go full on soap opera and have it be partly Cas'.  LOL

I swear I won't be surprised at anything the show does.  I can be quite pissed off about it, but not surprised. 

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think it was Cas  himself efusing. It was Kelly first, and then IMO, Sproutifer (TM G-Man) influencing Cas to not allow it.

That's the $64 question:  how much is actually Cas acting on his own, based on free will and what he saw/believes, and how much is Sproutifer influencing him (for good or bad reasons)?   I don't think we can even guess about that till the kid shows up and we see what he's capable of (though I'm pretty sure someone will bring that up to question Cas's motives).  And that brings me to:

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I'm still really, really dubious that the vision came directly from the baby, though. It's still a fetus, it hasn't ever seen the world. How could it create a vision of a world (any world) when it has never even been outside the womb?

The baby seems to be in contact with both his parents (so Luci knows how he's doing, and he knows when he's in danger and is capable of stopping it/saving himself) so maybe the communication goes both ways and he can see through his parents' eyes/have their memories.  He's also supposedly the most powerful being in existence (did they ever explain if he would be stronger than Chuck or Amara?) so I think it's a given that he's not a "normal" baby.  The writers can give him whatever powers they want.  But if it wasn't the baby giving Cas the vision, then who would it have been?  Not the angels or Lucifer, because both are convinced he's going to be bad, so his visions would be of evil.  

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

What if somehow Cas' grace got mixed up with Lucifer's when he was possessing Cas and that's actually partly Cas' child "genetically" speaking as angels go.

I think I'd hate that, but it's an interesting thought.  Did we ever see an angel possess another angel?  Though I think it's only the possessing angel's grace that gets left behind in the host, so in theory if Cas had a child it would be part Lucifer?

[rue721]

14 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

But if it wasn't the baby giving Cas the vision, then who would it have been?  Not the angels or Lucifer, because both are convinced he's going to be bad, so his visions would be of evil.  

The visions that Lucifer gives people are almost never evil, though. If anything, IMO he tends to go too soft with his visions. Like the vision of John that he sent to Sam when he wanted Sam to come back in the Cage.

Whoever sent the vision would have been trying to show Cas whatever they thought Cas WANTED to see IMO -- so I don't think Lucifer can be ruled out based on the vision being "good."

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

 

 

I think I'd hate that, but it's an interesting thought.  Did we ever see an angel possess another angel?  Though I think it's only the possessing angel's grace that gets left behind in the host, so in theory if Cas had a child it would be part Lucifer.

I've been wondering since Ghuck repaired Casifer ,that is to say he fixed both at the same time that maybe it left some of their influences in each other. That might explain why Cas was so sarcastic early on and  maybe why Lucifer could reverse the stupid polarity out of  being able to break free of Crowley. Because part of him is Cas, not unlike how the more human demonDean became,  it allowed him to walk out of the Devil's Trap. So maybe Cas' "DNA" will have a positive influence on Sproutifer in-utero and why it's able to have that connection with Cas.

5 minutes ago, rue721 said:

The visions that Lucifer gives people are almost never evil, though. If anything, IMO he tends to go too soft with his visions. Like the vision of John that he sent to Sam when he wanted Sam to come back in the Cage.

Whoever sent the vision would have been trying to show Cas whatever they thought Cas WANTED to see IMO -- so I don't think Lucifer can be ruled out based on the vision being "good."

That wasn'treally a good vision for Sam though because that came in the form of young John and the things he said Sam knew weren't true to John . It was Sam who couldn't figure out who that was.