Spoilers With Speculation

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 There would have to be in order for them to have eradicated nearly all the vamp nests in the Midwest already - Mary and Sketch alone didn't take them all out. Just because Wally (RIP Wally!) was smart to say no initially, and he did let Mary drag him in while knowing that she got her intel from the BMoL, doesn't mean all the others said no also.

We saw the one who secretely working with the vamps so even that one was a bust. And then we got some exposition from Mick how he really made no headway with US hunters. I don`t think the writers thought much about the implication of eradicating every vamp nest in the Midwest in the episode where they showed they only had mostly office workers and two enforcers on their payroll. IMO the audience was supposed to get the implication that the BMOL were getting soundly rebuffed all over the place. 

And with the way that woman handed Ketch the assignment to kill all US hunters - seriously, him alone, yes? - that made it seem as well like Ketch was so awesome that apparently, yes, him and Mary (who also got a LOT of propping in the show this year as super-hunter) cleaned out all the vamp nests pretty much by themselves with fancy schmancy gadgets. 

Seeing as how apparently lots of hunters will be dying by suspicious accidents, Super!Ketch (and maybe his new little team of cronies) are indeed supposed to wipe out the entirety of US hunterdom on their lonesome. And about to suceeding. Sigh.

Somehow Abaddon wiping out the entire US MOL by her lonesome made more sense narratively than this. It seemed to be a surprise attack where she took out the brass in one fell swoop and then the rank and file next. Hunters by comparism are solitary, often semi-transient creatures yet in the span of weeks probably Ketch managed "accident" kills all over the place.  

I think this is mostly another incident of "don`t look too closely". Where the narrative tells you "yup, those are the only Schmoes who truly signed up" vs. "hm, isn`t that illogical as shit with everything else you set up?" 

Edited April 24, 2017 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

That's it!  Thank you for reminding me!  I thought about something this morning (in the shower where I do all my best thinking)  - and then I promptly forgot by the time I got to work.  Lol.  Anyway, I wondered about Oz - seeing as how the Sketchers had photographed everything in the bunker, surely they'd find references to the key to Oz and Charlie and Dorothy, etc.  So I wondered if one of the "old men" was actually from Oz?  Maybe Glinda's dark side (like Dark Charlie and the Dark Wizard) or a flying monkey?

Didn't the key to Oz get destroyed by Dark Charlie? For some reason that comes to mind...Or maybe I'm confused.

[DittyDotDot]

16 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

So I wondered if one of the "old men" was actually from Oz?  Maybe Glinda's dark side (like Dark Charlie and the Dark Wizard) or a flying monkey?

::snort:: I vote for flying monkeys!! ;)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Didn't the key to Oz get destroyed by Dark Charlie? For some reason that comes to mind...Or maybe I'm confused.

Yes, I think the key that Charlie and Dorothy used got destroyed.  But what if (duh, duh, duh, DUH...) there's another key?

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

::snort:: I vote for flying monkeys!! ;)

Right?  :D

[Demented Daisy]

http://ew.com/tv/season-finales-2017-spoilers/supernatural/ -- nothing new.

Quote

 

The CW, Thursday, May 18, 8 p.m.

The long-running drama has explored just about every option when it comes to season-ending suspense for its characters. Facing the apocalypse? Done. Being dragged to hell? Check. Killing death itself? Yep. (Try to wrap your head around that one.) But the season 12 capper will find Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) surrounded by enemies — and, thankfully, a few friends — as they deal with Lucifer and the British Men of Letters. "We’re going for a more traditional Supernatural season finale, where people will die, people will live, and people will be in danger," showrunner Andrew Dabb says. "[The episode] leaves everyone in an extremely precarious position. We are very conscious about this whole idea of opening new worlds."

 

[rue721]

"Opening new worlds" = switching the baby with a fairy foundling, calling it ;)

[catrox14]

46 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Yes, I think the key that Charlie and Dorothy used got destroyed.  But what if (duh, duh, duh, DUH...) there's another key?

Well, sure they can pull one out of their asses like the writers do many things.

I'm just saying that based on what went before I had the impression that was the ONLY key to Oz and there was no way to fix and there were no ways to make more, but I couldn't quite remember so down the rabbit hole I went:  

From the Dark Charlie episode

 

Quote

DEAN: Sam's right. We'll go back to Oz, and we'll -- we'll get the key from the wizard of douche, and we'll put you back together.

GOOD CHARLIE: Even if I did want her back . . . Look dark me broke the key. There's no way to get back to the wizard.

*************

Int. of Clive Dillon’s house. Dillon and Good Charlie are talking about the keys. Sam stands, looking around.

CLIVE DILLON: The six keys of Oz were forged from Oz steel. They can only be repaired in that magical realm.

GOOD CHARLIE: So there's no going back? I can't put my darkness away?

CLIVE DILLON: I'm sorry.

In Slumber Party there was this:

Quote

 

DOROTHY

Unfortunately. It's the key to Oz. There are magical ways into Oz -- tornado, eye of a hurricane, whirlpool -- but this key will turn any locked door into a portal to Oz. Insert key, twist, and presto, you're in Oz.

 

Maybe there will be a tornado in Lebanon, KS and that opens the portal? I mean it could work theoretically.

Edited April 24, 2017 by catrox14

[RulerofallIsurvey]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Maybe there will be a tornado in Lebanon, KS and that opens the portal? I mean it could work theoretically.

That'd be pretty cool.  It is in  "tornado alley" after.  

So there are still 5 other keys somewhere?  Hm...

[catrox14]

ETA: So there are 6 keys but no idea where they other 5 are.  So yeah , I guess they could just be out there floating around .

Just now, RulerofallIsurvey said:

That'd be pretty cool.  It is in  "tornado alley" after.  

 

Yup. That's why I thought about it.

[MysteryGuest]

5 hours ago, Diane said:

PRE-FINALE: As the British Men of Letters start to make their move, “people that Sam and Dean know/love pay the price,” forcing the brothers to take “a much stronger role in the wider hunter community” as generals

Aligning themselves with other American hunters is what I wanted them to do from the very beginning of the season, but I guess better late than never.  That could have played out over the last half of the season, instead of the 2nd to last episode.  

I'm concerned about the "people they know/love paying the price" part.  They don't "love" a lot of people so I'm thinking Jody, Claire, Alex or Garth.  I don't really want any of them to be killed, so I hope I'm wrong.  I would think they'd have worded it differently if they were referring to Mary.  She could end up being killed by Lucifer, I suppose.  That will be disappointing for me because I had higher expectations for her return than what we've been given.  If Lucifer doesn't kill Mary, that leaves Cas or Crowley.  I'd be surprised if they got rid of a regular this close to the end of the show, but if they really want to stir things up, that would do it.  I enjoy them both, but the writers don't really seem to know what to do with either of them at this point.  Maybe Lucifer kills himself?  That would work for me.

[DeeDee79]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

ETA: So there are 6 keys but no idea where they other 5 are.  So yeah , I guess they could just be out there floating around .

Ugh; no mysterious keys story line please! I'm still recovering from the disappointment with the mangled keys plot on Grimm :(

[catrox14]

Just now, DeeDee79 said:

Ugh; no mysterious keys story line please! I'm still recovering from the disappointment with the mangled keys plot on Grimm :(

LOL that's true!

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

 Maybe Lucifer kills himself?  That would work for me.

Would this be a redemption arc or Lucifer being stupid and killing himself unintentionally?

[Wayward Son]

Quote

 

 

TVLINE | Cas has been in Heaven for a little while now. How will he re-enter the action? And is he any different?

ANDREW DABB: When Cas comes back [in this Thursday’s episode], we’re going to get a lot of clarity in terms of not only why he’s been in Heaven for so long, but his own point of view on why he went. Some people are looking at it like, “He went to Heaven because he’s choosing angels over Sam and Dean,” and things like that. What’s going to come out very strongly when he comes back is that what he’s doing, he views as doing for our guys. That’s been a big part of the season overall: Sam and Dean have proven themselves as heroes, certainly to everyone around them. So whether it’s Cas or Crowley or Mary or Mick until his unfortunate demise or anyone else in our story, these are people who realize Sam and Dean’s importance. Sam and Dean have always been willing to sacrifice for each other. Now we’re seeing a lot of people around them that are willing to sacrifice for Sam and Dean, and it’s really about building a sense of community.

So from Cas’ point of view, everything he’s been doing has been for Sam and Dean. When he comes back in, that will be made pretty clear, and then the question is: Where does he go from there? Once he comes back in, he’s going after Kelly. Once he comes into contact with her [and] her kid, a lot of his misconceptions may fall away. A big part of his time in Heaven has been gathering information, but not reorienting his thinking to the point where he’s against Sam and Dean or anything like that. It’s more like having moments of clarity in terms of why he’s doing this and the price he, personally, is willing to pay to keep Sam and Dean alive or to keep them from experiencing pain.

http://tvline.com/2017/04/24/supernatural-spoilers-season-12-finale-deaths/

 

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, I pray to Guck this is true and there is no misdirection! I really would love it if we could have a season without any major Cas/Cas' vessel vs the boys drama!

Edited April 24, 2017 by Wayward Son

[MysteryGuest]

10 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

What’s going to come out very strongly when he comes back is that what he’s doing, he views as doing for our guys.

 

10 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

So from Cas’ point of view, everything he’s been doing has been for Sam and Dean.

Neither of the above quotes fill me with confidence that Cas has necessarily made a wise decision, unfortunately.  He has made decisions in the past that he thought were good and they have proven to be disastrous.  So when they say "from Cas' point of view", it makes me nervous.  I sincerely hope he gets it right this time, because he's definitely due for a win.

[SueB]

Thanks for the links @Wayward Son and @Demented Daisy

So:
- Sam and Dean leading the fight against the BMoL
- Mary sees the error of her ways regarding BMoL
- Cas is NOT going against the boys -- although there's still a chance he's going to sacrifice himself for them, because he can.
- As predicted 12.22 is BMoL, 12.23 is Spawn
 

I find both of these interviews to be very "pro" Sam and Dean, "anti" BMoL, "pro" Cas, and "pro" Mary.  All of this is good news IMO.  Curiously, he's silent on Crowley.  

Edited April 25, 2017 by SueB

[Diane]

6 minutes ago, SueB said:

Thanks for the links @Wayward Son and @Demented Daisy

So:
- Sam and Dean leading the fight against the BMoL
- Mary sees the error of her ways regarding BMoL
- Cas is NOT going against the boys -- although there's still a chance he's going to sacrifice himself for them, because he can.
- As predicted 12.22 is BMoL, 12.23 is Spawn
 

I find both of these interviews to be very "pro" Sam and Dean, "anti" BMoL, "pro" Cas, and "pro" Mary.  All of this is good news IMO.  Curiously, he's silent on Crowley.  

Me too really looking forward to see how this plays out.

[ILoveReading]

If other hunters were smart enough to stay clear of HMSS, and Sam and Dean followed them down the rabbit hole, why would other hunter look to Sam and Dean as their leaders?

Episode 20 brings back the witch twins, so I'm guessing their first on the Brits hit list.

Edited April 25, 2017 by ILoveReading

[MysteryGuest]

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

If other hunters were smart enough to stay clear of HMSS, and Sam and Dean followed them down the rabbit hole, why would other hunter look to Sam and Dean as their leaders?

I'm thinking that the hunters who turned down the BMOL did so because they simply preferred to work alone, or just had a general lack of interest or trust.  I don't think they ever showed that they were given reason to be suspicious of their methods.  Sam and Dean have been on the inside, and finally seem to be catching on to their evil ways, so they have good intel to bring to their fellow hunters.  Especially if they are now the hunted.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Would this be a redemption arc or Lucifer being stupid and killing himself unintentionally?

I would accept either option, though I prefer he not be redeemed.  I would love for Crowley to still be one step ahead of Lucifer so when he starts to tamper with his vessel, he's sent directly to the Cage.  I'd like for at least one of our main characters to be smart this season.

[companionenvy]

15 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm thinking that the hunters who turned down the BMOL did so because they simply preferred to work alone, or just had a general lack of interest or trust.  I don't think they ever showed that they were given reason to be suspicious of their methods.

This. Especially as there's really no indication that a good number of American hunters wouldn't be approving of a lot of their methods. Not the code of killing anyone who went against the BMOL, of course, but judging on what we've seen before, I think there are plenty of hunters who would have made the choice to  kill the werewolf girl, for instance. 

I'm hoping the deaths aren't too major - I could cope with losing a Donna-level fond acquaintance, but not someone like Jody who has become a more integral part of the Winchester's lives. I guess it turns on whether "knows/loves" means "people in that intermediate stage between acquaintance and real friend" or "people they know but aren't that attached to, and also some people who they truly love."

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I could cope with losing a Donna-level fond acquaintance,

Oh. NO. I will rage if they kill off Donna. She is my favorite female character on this show bar none.

[MysteryGuest]

I'm not so sure Donna would be on their radar as an actual hunter.  She's helped, but mainly in her capacity as sheriff.  Jody has crossed the line more than a few times.  I'm tired of them always killing people off, frankly.  

[SueB]

25 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

This. Especially as there's really no indication that a good number of American hunters wouldn't be approving of a lot of their methods. Not the code of killing anyone who went against the BMOL, of course, but judging on what we've seen before, I think there are plenty of hunters who would have made the choice to  kill the werewolf girl, for instance. 

I'm hoping the deaths aren't too major - I could cope with losing a Donna-level fond acquaintance, but not someone like Jody who has become a more integral part of the Winchester's lives. I guess it turns on whether "knows/loves" means "people in that intermediate stage between acquaintance and real friend" or "people they know but aren't that attached to, and also some people who they truly love."

Since they figure out they need to fight the BMoL either by the end of the next episode or the episode after, and Jody is in 12.22, I think she's safe.  Claire is at major risk IMO. 

[7kstar]

21 minutes ago, SueB said:

Claire is at major risk IMO. 

Claire would add something to the characters of Dean and Sam feeling pain but I'm not sure the fans care either way.  Frankly I'm bored with killing off characters...I would rather something new. 

My problem...not sure what new they could do other than have the BMoL turn on themselves or having monsters they thought they had done away with in England actually alive under their noses and gotten better at staying off their radar.

I would like to see Crowley pull something over Lucifer instead of him doing something to well anyone.  I wished I cared about him but that's the problem I have they go so black and white that you can't root for the character anymore.

Maybe there will be a surprise that I will be excited about...one can dream, right?  :)

[catrox14]

Okay. I don't think they are in Kansas anymore.

Are they on Lian Yu? Do I get my SuperArrow xover at long last?

Is this New Caprica? (BSG joke)

 

Edited April 25, 2017 by catrox14

[SueB]

BTW: I'm saying Claire is at risk because we have Jody AND Alex in the finale, and no Claire.  Them showing up as the 'face' of those killed would be fitting IMO.

[catrox14]

So does that look that's a green screen picture behind Jensen or do you think they are on location? He looks oddly like he's not there. The depth perception of him looks peculiar or is my perception off?

[Diane]

I don't think it looks like a green screen

[auntvi]

36 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Is this New Caprica?

Could very well be .....

[catrox14]

Just now, auntvi said:

Could very well be .....

It sure looks like the beach that was not!Earth too, LOL or rather nuked!Earth

Edited April 25, 2017 by catrox14

[ahrtee]

Maybe it's The Empty.  No one said it had to be horrible.

[AwesomO4000]

It reminds me of one of the beaches either Chuck took Metatron to or the one where Castiel wasn't supposed to step on the little fish in his mind flasbacks in "The Man Who Would Be King."

Basically that scenery looks familiar is what I'm saying.

[Wayward Son]

Does Jody count as a hunter? I'm fond of her and I don't intend the question to be an insulting one, but as far as I can recall she has only ever stumbled on hunts in her sheriff duties. I don't think she has ever actually 'hunted' something just stumbled on it and even then she normally calls in the brothers to deal with it. 

Is there an incident of her actively hunting that I've forgotten? 

[DeansDorkyAngel]

The pic Jensen posted makes me think that there may be a scene (maybe a minor one and not that important) involving that landscape. Somehow I don't think Jensen would reveal something very important by posting this image.  Maybe there is a conversation or a possible meeting while standing there? 

[DittyDotDot]

7 hours ago, SueB said:

BTW: I'm saying Claire is at risk because we have Jody AND Alex in the finale, and no Claire.  Them showing up as the 'face' of those killed would be fitting IMO.

Except, maybe we do have Claire? Dabb said there'll be a newcomer and an old favorite?

5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

It reminds me of one of the beaches either Chuck took Metatron to or the one where Castiel wasn't supposed to step on the little fish in his mind flasbacks in "The Man Who Would Be King."

Basically that scenery looks familiar is what I'm saying.

It appears to be that favorite beach that almost all Vancouver shot shows use at some point. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, DeansDorkyAngel said:

The pic Jensen posted makes me think that there may be a scene (maybe a minor one and not that important) involving that landscape. Somehow I don't think Jensen would reveal something very important by posting this image.  Maybe there is a conversation or a possible meeting while standing there? 

Eh, Jensen spoils/teases stuff at least once per season.  He totally spoiled /teased  Benny return in S10 when posted a pic of a forest location and captioned it with "This place seems kind of familiar." and fans sussed out pretty quick it was Purgatory. In interviews before the S9 finale, he said "it's gonna be a real eye opener."

He's a little shit sometimes (said only with love and affection,) about that stuff and it's hilarious IMO.

 

That pic doesn't look unlike the background at this location,  just can't see the beach in here. Maybe the boys are finally getting a vacation again..

oddly I'm more curious if that is Jensen wearing a hoodie or Dean!

Edited April 25, 2017 by catrox14

[ILoveReading]

16 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't think there is another bunker in another state, is there?  It was built where it was because it's the geographical center of the contiguous US - which, I think, is also supposed to be some kind of powerful natural magic/portal/nexxus/thingie...

The only thing the writers are consistent about is that if they want to do it they will, regardless of what was said or done in the past. 

I don't recall if it was mentioned there are other bunkers or not.  But it wouldn't surprise me at all if suddenly another top sekrit bunker hidden somewhere.  Especially if the writers wanted to go for broke and blow up this one for drama but not lose an expensive set.

I know that the BMoL's seems to wrap up ep 22 but its possible they planted explosives.  I can easily see them having a 'if we can't have it no one can mentality." or Lucifer could do it which would make us hate him, or both.

If you blow it up in a magic/portal/nexxus then it could catapult the characters into another dimension.  I always thought a cool episode would have been an alternate universe where everything was reversed.  John, died instead of Mary, Dean grew up the rebellious son, etc.  If they do go alternate dimension, I hope its something new rather than Oz.  Both Oz eps didn't seem to go over well (or at least at the sites I was reading at the time).

Looks like Mark and Misha were filming too.  The dirt on Mark reminds me of dust and debris someone might be covered with after and explosion, but most likely it comes from his confrontation with Lucifer.

As for Jensen's pic, if you (general you) follow Jason Fischer's twitter when he posts the quote of the day you can see what scenes their filming. 

It looks like scene Jensen tweeted about will either take place either at the very beginning of the episode, or towards the end or part 2 or the beginning of part 3.  I hope its the beginning of the ep because  given the way this season has gone if its the middle there is a strong possibility that Dean is sent back to the cornfield. 

[Demented Daisy]

If the BMoL are taking out werewolves, then what about Kate?  Perhaps she found Garth and his brood.  That would fulfill the "old favorite" and "relative newcomer" spoilers, I think.

While Sam and Dean weren't overly connected to Kate, they let her go twice -- something I think the BMoL would be highly perturbed about.

[DittyDotDot]

5 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

If the BMoL are taking out werewolves, then what about Kate?  Perhaps she found Garth and his brood.  That would fulfill the "old favorite" and "relative newcomer" spoilers, I think.

While Sam and Dean weren't overly connected to Kate, they let her go twice -- something I think the BMoL would be highly perturbed about.

That could work. 

I'm hoping the old favorite is Death--love me some Death--but not expecting it. Bobby and Garth would fall in this category too. It would be really cool if they did get John back, though. That could make sense for Mary and the boys.

Money's still on Claire for the relative newcomer. But, really could be anyone. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I know some others don't like Kate, but I do.  I don't want her to die either.  Maybe they could do the werewolf cure on her?  Or would that even work since she killed her old roommate?

Edited April 25, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

 Maybe they could do the werewolf cure on her?

Did they mention if the werewolf cure was like the vampire cure in that you couldn't have fed yet.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Just now, ILoveReading said:

Did they mention if the werewolf cure was like the vampire cure in that you couldn't have fed yet.

I think so.  But I can't remember if she actually fed on her roommate or just ripped him apart with her superwerewolf strength.

[Demented Daisy]

4 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I know some others don't like Kate, but I do.  I don't want her to die either.  Maybe they could do the werewolf cure on her?  Or would that even work since she killed her old roommate?

They as in Sam and Dean or the BMoL?  Sam and Dean might be able, but considering they had to talk Mick into using it (when he thought it wouldn't work), I can't imagine Ketch et al being willing to try.

Now, if Kate and Garth are separate and the BMoL kill Garth, then I could see Sam and Dean tracking down Kate and performing the cure on her, potentially.  She might not be happy, though, since they claimed to have a cure once before....

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 minute ago, Demented Daisy said:

They as in Sam and Dean or the BMoL?  

Yeah, I definitely meant Sam and Dean.  The BMoL wouldn't bother - especially with Mick dead.  It would make sense to have Kate make an appearance in an episode with Garth - if the plot is about werewolves again.  Since they already did a werewolf plot with Claire, I don't really think they'll do another one.  So maybe the BMoL is only going after Garth because he's on their list of hunters and they don't know he got turned into a werewolf.  

[Demented Daisy]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

So maybe the BMoL is only going after Garth because he's on their list of hunters

They must avenge the Tooth Fairy!  ;-)

[Myrelle]

Maybe they will bring JDM in for a cameo at the end. That would be their Hail Mary pass to save this season, IMO.

[DittyDotDot]

19 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I know some others don't like Kate, but I do.  I don't want her to die either.  Maybe they could do the werewolf cure on her?  Or would that even work since she killed her old roommate?

I don't think they specified. According to Mick, they'd only tested it on one human--I still want to see those weremice, though--and they died in agony. Claire is the only other human they have data on. I don't think that's really enough data to know much about how or why it actually works.

I'm indifferent to Kate. I think the character is fine, but the two episodes she's featured in were fairly lackluster, IMO. I think it might be nice to get her back and see if the character has legs or not, though.

6 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

They must avenge the Tooth Fairy!  ;-)

Bwahahaha! I had totally forgotten about Garth taking out the Tooth Fairy. 

Edited April 25, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

They can't cure Kate because they don't have the "live" blood of the werewolf that bit her.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

They can't cure Kate because they don't have the "live" blood of the werewolf that bit her.

Oh, I forgot about that part!

[SueB]

Just now, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Oh, I forgot about that part!

It's good that they make these little "nuances" because it prevents you from getting a massive sea-state change.  They can't go cure all old vamps or werewolves but they have the potential now to cure those victims under the right circumstances.  Increases the stakes, IMO, in those kind of hunts.  Because now it's not just a s simple put-down but an opportunity to save as well.  

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, SueB said:

They can't cure Kate because they don't have the "live" blood of the werewolf that bit her.

That's right. I knew there had to be a limit of some sort, but couldn't remember what.