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Spoilers With Speculation


SueB
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Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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As much as I dislike Ketch, I do have to say that I like the actor.  It's hard not to like someone who's such a big fan of the show.  It's really pretty amazing how they suck all of these actors in to being part of the SPN family.  I think I'd love to work on that set for a day.  I bet it's a hoot.

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2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Here is the set pic from 12.19

tumblr_om9us7NSun1qe8oxwo1_500.jpg

This is fueling my Jimmy crack!spec.

There's no way that's Cas in that picture. Wrong facial expression, wrong clothes, wrong body language.

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24 minutes ago, rue721 said:

There's no way that's Cas in that picture. Wrong facial expression, wrong clothes, wrong body language.

Just to clarify, I think that was Misha arriving to set in his wardrobe for the day. I don't think this was him in character.

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I saw this on tumblr. I couldn't get it to link so I just copied it!

 

5 things we know about Supernatural season finale

1. Mark says “if you didn’t hate Lucifer already, you will after this”
2. Cas or Crowley will possibly be killed
3. J2M say “stay until the last 30 seconds after the screen goes black, a lot of characters will be involved”
4. It disturbed AND SHOCKED MISHA, Misha also says “the fans will be freaked out” and “it is chilling, disturbing”
5. It’s is 2 hours long (back to back)

Edited by Boopsahoy
messed up link
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6 hours ago, Boopsahoy said:

4. It disturbed AND SHOCKED MISHA, Misha also says “the fans will be freaked out” and “it is chilling, disturbing”

Things that would be shocking and distrubing

Making Mary choose between her two sons.

Dean having to make a choice and choosing some one other than Sam

Dean having to kill a loved one.

The bunker blowing up with everyone in it and the fate of every character left up in the air.

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9 hours ago, Boopsahoy said:

I saw this on tumblr. I couldn't get it to link so I just copied it!

 

5 things we know about Supernatural season finale

1. Mark says “if you didn’t hate Lucifer already, you will after this”
2. Cas or Crowley will possibly be killed
3. J2M say “stay until the last 30 seconds after the screen goes black, a lot of characters will be involved”
4. It disturbed AND SHOCKED MISHA, Misha also says “the fans will be freaked out” and “it is chilling, disturbing”
5. It’s is 2 hours long (back to back)

Interesting. I had seen a couple of these before, but having them listed together does inspire speculation.

Personally, I don't think that the finale will be about Dean or Sam, except peripherally. Having either of them be the central figures of the story does not seem to be something that interests Dabb.

Considering how many mothers we have focused on this season -- Mary, Lady Toni, Kelly -- my first thought was that maybe Lucifer's baby will have some kind of supernatural power over mothers. Maybe they will turn against the good guys and ally themselves with Lucifer to protect the baby. Sounds kind of silly when I put it into words, but it is disturbing, I guess.

My second thought -- trying to think of something that MIsha would find "chilling, disturbing" -- is that maybe Lucifer, either because the good guys somehow destroy Kelly's baby or because he decides he wants more offspring, takes Mary or Lady Toni, or both, as his "handmaids". Maybe the final shot of the season is one of Mary, and she is pregnant. (Reminds me of that famous graffiti from the sixties that said, "God is Dead -- but don't worry, Mary's pregnant again".)

I don't know if it would make people hate Lucifer more -- I mean, he already basically raped and impregnated Kelly by using the body of someone she loved) -- but it certainly would be a shocking image.

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15 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

(Reminds me of that famous graffiti from the sixties that said, "God is Dead -- but don't worry, Mary's pregnant again".)

Really interesting! I've never heard of that graffiti before.

I think that Mary is more likely to "adopt" the nephilism baby and take off with it than she is to make one of her own...but I do think that she's liable to end the season becoming a mother again in some way.

Not sure if that qualifies as chilling or disturbing, though?

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I'm still convinced those 'spoilers' are from someone trolling the fandom in a "how gullible can they be" way. The description from Misha as chilling and disturbing was used in regards to the season nine finale as was the instruction to watch until the last thirty seconds (demon dean wake up). 

 

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Misha, who plays Castiel, added, “I can say that the fans are going to freak out. I think it’s very chilling and disturbing. When I read the script for the finale, I was definitely shocked. I thought, ‘Can they do this?’ The last five seconds!”

Source: http://www.ibtimes.com.au/supernatural-stars-jensen-ackles-jared-padalecki-misha-collins-say-fans-will-freak-out-over-season-9 

Number 5 has also been debunked as It has been stated the two episodes will be on the same night, but two separate one hours ep. 

Spoilers 1 and 2 are the only possibly legit seeming ones imo 

ETA: I have found references to Mark Shepherd (possibly) joking at VegasCon and SeaCon that Crowley will die in episode 21. I have not been able to find anything about Castiel being in peril. I'm not ruling it out,  as I personally have been speculating his exit for a while now, I just can't seem to find an official source suggesting it.

Edited by Wayward Son
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Thing is, if they leave any of the main characters in supposedly "grave danger", the response would be pretty much "whatthefuckever" because knowing there is a Season 13 makes such cliffhanger moot. And I still very much include Cas and Crowley in that. As if J2 don`t want to work even less next Season. The only question is the shitty-ass deus ex machina way they get out of it.

Meanwhile lower tier characters don`t produce big cliffhanger material either. Sure, the actors might hype it up but I couldn`t care less if Lucifer did dastardly things - duh - or if Mary gets kill off or something. 

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  My guess is it will be Lucifer related since that is my least favorite option.  I can't imagine that Mark would actually say Crowley dies, if Crowley is actually dying.  I would think TPTB would be all over his ass for that.  I'm assuming all of our regulars will be involved in whatever big Lucifer story ends the season.  

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Here have some crack spec about Cas.

I don't  think Cas will be able to kill the Nephilim. I think k his time in Heaven will have given him the mission of powering him up to take on Dagon with the understanding that he is to take Kelly it back to Heaven so they can kill Kelly and the NEPHILIM or for some other nefarious angel reason.

IMO, the show won't kill a baby and I don't think they will kill the mother either.

 

so Cas decides he is going to make sure neither die and to do so he possesses her  to make her strong enough to survive the birth. he vacates her after the baby is born and he takes off with it unto parts unknown. he wipes Kelly's memory

Lucifer goes into a rage and thinks this is all Sam and Dean's fault for whatever reasons and he kills Crowley, kidnaps Mary and tries to get he Cas to bring him the child or he kills Mary. Mary is left with Lucifer 

Maybe the boys have to work with Ketch to save Mary and it ends ei  now it s the boys on the lam from Lucifer and The BMoL for S13.

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Personally I haven't felt oh my gosh cliffhanger since season 4.  It's been done so much that by this point I just go okay what will they rewrite to make it happen.  I wish the writers of ALL shows would stop the cliffhanger storyline...it's old now.  At one time it was shocking and exciting but that means you have to do something we can't figure out, or something new.

Killing Mary would backlash I think so I think they would be smart enough to avoid that...at least one hopes.

Hating Lucifer...how can that be new?

I do think that Ketch is really wanting to harm Dean for making fun of him.  The scene where the boys are laughing at him...well he will try something but again that is expected.

So show, how will you do something I will enjoy and still surprise me...THAT is your challenge.  :)

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16 minutes ago, goldy said:

I wonder if that means Krissy is coming back for this year season finale or that the actress is just on the plane with him.

She's working on Arrow so she might just be on the same flight back to Vancouver.

Edited by catrox14
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1 hour ago, Diane said:

So what it comes down to, finally, is the price you’re willing to pay — and once the rubber hits the road, that price is probably too high for our guys

I'm wondering if by guys, he means Sam and Dean only or if that includes Mary as well. As far as the price goes I think it's pretty obvious that it's killing peaceful monsters as well as any human who questions their ways or is a witness to something they do. I'll be disappointed but not surprised if Mary stays on board with them regardless of if it's spelled out or even illustrated for her.

ETA: To be clear I was saying I wanted Dean and Sam for that matter, to get an I told you so in at Mary because I'm just not thrilled with her.

Edited by trxr4kids
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I never expected any vindication or credit anyway. I might tentatively get from it that Dean won`t grovel and be blamed for things, hopefully, at the very least.

That "he walked in with his eyes open" is stupid, though. Nope, he just didn`t even try fighting it because what was the point. But that`s still different than knowing what`s what.

My hope would be smug Mary gets some much deserved comeuppance out of this. 

Quote

Why on earth would Dean being vindicated be considered off putting? Off putting to whom??

Honestly, I think to Dabb himself. I get the feeling he would rather eat glass. 

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I was just thinking, I think the dilemma with regard to the Kelly storyline is meant to be whether the baby is doomed by nature or whether it can be raised to be a good person. And I would think that the Winchesters would fall firmly on the "nurture" side of the nature v nurture debate if only because they're Team Free Will. But then they themselves could kind of be proof of nature winning out -- depends on whether you think they themselves were raised well or not, right? I mean, they're good, so if their upbringing wasn't good, then I guess they're just good by nature? Hmm. This is why I wish the show would have Mary be more interested in John and in her sons' past (and how it was different because she wasn't a part of it). I feel like on the one hand, it is believably in character that Mary is a stick her head in the sand" kind of person, but on the other, I think it's kind of poor (or at least confusing) storytelling not to make these themes (if that's even what they are) more explicit. 

Putting this here bc it's spec regarding where the season is going, but please feel free to move or to respond in a diff thread lol

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After watching the last episode again, I'm really beginning to think that the Bunker is going to be toast.  I'm not sure whether it's going to be destroyed, or whether it'll just be overrun with BMOL, but I think the boys' time there is going to come to an end.  I know not everyone loves the Bunker, but I will miss it if is destroyed.  I can see Sam and Dean destroying it to keep the BMOL from using it.  Plus, there's probably a reason we were told that Sam was uploading all of the archives from the Bunker.  That way they at least will still have access to the information.

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2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

 Plus, there's probably a reason we were told that Sam was uploading all of the archives from the Bunker.  That way they at least will still have access to the information.

Yup and I think also the callbacks to the Grenade Launcher

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Just now, catrox14 said:

Yup and I think also the callbacks to the Grenade Launcher

Yeah, even seeing Dean get to finally use that will not make me feel better about losing the Bunker.  I love that set.  But I'm thinking maybe that's the "character" that dies this season.  I'm not sure how popular the Bunker is with most fans, so maybe that's not a big enough deal in and of itself.  But I do think it's going to be part of whatever happens.

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4 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Yeah, even seeing Dean get to finally use that will not make me feel better about losing the Bunker.  I love that set.  But I'm thinking maybe that's the "character" that dies this season.  I'm not sure how popular the Bunker is with most fans, so maybe that's not a big enough deal in and of itself.  But I do think it's going to be part of whatever happens.

The main (not only) reason I can see for them to not blow up the bunker is that Jim Michaels would have a shit fit.

He's said for a long time that set is too expensive to be struck.

I don't want it to be destroyed either.

Edited by catrox14
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42 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Yeah, even seeing Dean get to finally use that will not make me feel better about losing the Bunker.  I love that set.  But I'm thinking maybe that's the "character" that dies this season.  I'm not sure how popular the Bunker is with most fans, so maybe that's not a big enough deal in and of itself.  But I do think it's going to be part of whatever happens.

Personally, I'd be happy to see it get blown up, but I don't think it likely it will. I don't think the show can afford to blow it up. It's really their only standing set at this point, so unless they're going to build another set--which would be expensive--I'd say they're keeping the one they have.

Edited by DittyDotDot
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Pursuant to a conversation in the All Episodes thread about the Empty, I almost forgot that there were hints that Death was supposed to come back this season.  Maybe that's the cliffhanger.  Death comes back and finishes what he started...he reaps Sam and sends Dean to the Empty.  And we spend next season getting them back out.  Yeah, it's lame, but I wonder if he really is supposed to be on the show?  There certainly were hints about it.

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14 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Pursuant to a conversation in the All Episodes thread about the Empty, I almost forgot that there were hints that Death was supposed to come back this season.  Maybe that's the cliffhanger.  Death comes back and finishes what he started...he reaps Sam and sends Dean to the Empty.  And we spend next season getting them back out.  Yeah, it's lame, but I wonder if he really is supposed to be on the show?  There certainly were hints about it.

Wait, what were the hints about Death coming back?? I missed these.

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56 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Personally, I'd be happy to see it get blown up, but I don't think it likely it will. I don't think the show can afford to blow it up. It's really their only standing set at this point, so unless they're going to build another set--which would be expensive--I'd say they're keeping the one they have.

I think they're too cheap to really get rid of it, but IMO it's going to fall into someone else's hands. I think they're hinting that it won't be the Winchesters' home by the time the season is up.

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10 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think they're too cheap to really get rid of it, but IMO it's going to fall into someone else's hands. I think they're hinting that it won't be the Winchesters' home by the time the season is up.

Maybe, but I think it's in the same vein they did "the Winchesters will come out of the black site to a completely different world." I think they did that scene of them talking about what will happen to the bunker when they're gone for the theme of the episode to hold together. I'm not convinced it has any long-term implications, myself. But, it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong and I doubt it will be the last time, if I am, so... ?

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10 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think they did that scene of them talking about what will happen to the bunker when they're gone for the theme of the episode to hold together.

Yeah, and I mean, they carved up the car but they still have that. I don't think the carving up of the table is definitive, either.

I've just been getting this feeling that the show is trying to get them out of the bunker and back on the road, though. Too tired right now to think of the specific hints that make me think why though -- LOL sorry, I know that's not helpful at all.

I think that the Bunker is most liable to get overrun by the BMOL, but there's also this crack!spec I've got in my head that Crowley and/or Rowena are going to take it over. Not that I think Crowley would give up his abandoned nuthouse aka Palace that easily. But I think he might want to hole up in the Bunker if things go wrong with Lucifer. And I would think that Rowena would want access if only for all the magical objects and artifacts. She would nerd out so hard on all the stuff they have in there that I kind of want her to have the run of the place just to see what she would manage to do with all that knowledge. But that's all just crack!spec territory lol.

ETA:  what I'm most curious about is, if Mary survives the season, where is she going to be living? I don't think that rinky dink BMOL HQ is going to last, and who could live there for any real length of time anyway? It would be like living in a submarine but less cozy. Like living in a cubical but with even worse lighting and lower ceilings lol.

Edited by rue721
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Just now, rue721 said:

I've just been getting this feeling that the show is trying to get them out of the bunker and back on the road, though. Too tired right now to think of the specific hints that make me think why though -- LOL sorry, I know that's not helpful at all.

This whole season has felt more on the road in comparison to the last couple. I love it myself.

Maybe they do want to go back to being a road show, but I know it's expensive and time consuming to do that. And with Jared and Jensen wanting more time off, I don't think they can really pull it off on a week to week basis anymore. I just think the show is trying to balance the "road" and the "home base" more so they can have their pie and eat it too. ;)

6 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think that the Bunker is most liable to get overrun by the BMOL,

I really thought that was going to happen by now. I was pretty sure once Sam and Dean signed up they'd move their base of operations to the bunker since it appears to be more secure than their own base. And, it made a certain amount of production sense to me. Plus, I really thought it was a good way for the Brits to start getting under Sam and Dean's skin a bit.

But, the longer it doesn't happen makes me think it won't. Maybe they're just lulling me into a false sense of security?

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15 minutes ago, rue721 said:

ETA:  what I'm most curious about is, if Mary survives the season, where is she going to be living? I don't think that rinky dink BMOL HQ is going to last, and who could live there for any real length of time anyway? It would be like living in a submarine but less cozy. Like living in a cubical but with even worse lighting and lower ceilings lo

I think if Ketch survives the season, he and Mary might go off together to parts unknown.

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8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

But, the longer it doesn't happen makes me think it won't. Maybe they're just lulling me into a false sense of security?

It feels like the BMOL's trip to the US is never-ending, but I don't think Sam and Dean have really been working with them for that long. Not really long enough for the BMOL to take over the bunker with anything close to their acquiescence. I mean, they had JUST become quasi-OK with Mick when Mick was killed. Now Ketch is supposedly their handler. So maybe we're just expecting a faster pace than the show is really going for with this BMOL story?

I do think that the BMOL at least have their eye on the bunker, because they seem more obsessed and even more knowledgeable when it comes to it than they do the Winchesters. They're always just showing up there, breaking in somehow, crawling they place and planting a million bugs for overly intensive and likely pointless surveillance, etc. And whenever they want to screw with the Winchesters, they always take them away from it -- I guess so they don't mess it up?

I'm also suspicious of their crappy HQ. That place didn't look permanent for sure. And I know that Mary's "slumming it" comment was meant to be sarcastic, but compared to the history-rich ~gentility~ of the bunker, their crummy little shipping-container/office-building hybrid HQ really kind of IS slumming it.

I can also see Ketch wanting the bunker as an FU to Sam and Dean. He's got some kind of weird bee in his bonnet and seems to see them as rivals. So I think he'd like to take something (else) of theirs. But who knows if he's even going to last the season, so.

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13 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I do think that the BMOL at least have their eye on the bunker, because they seem more obsessed and even more knowledgeable when it comes to it than they do the Winchesters.

What's weird though is, if they really wanted the bunker, it sat empty for decades, why haven't they claimed it long before the boys took up residence there? Or even when the boys moved in? I mean, Sam and Dean have had it since late S8, they could've come and kicked them out years ago if it's the bunker they're after.

I just assumed they view the bunker as a relic and figure they have way better and more modern stuff in comparison to anything in that bunker. And, that's why they haven't bothered to try and take it over before now.

Edited by DittyDotDot
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2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

if they really wanted the bunker, it sat empty for decades, why haven't they claimed it long before the boys took up residence there?

They didn't have a presence in the US before, so they wouldn't have had any use for it before. I think that since they've been in the States, they've been trying to use it to keep tabs on the Winchesters/American hunters, so it doesn't suit their purposes to drive the Winchesters out.

I think they COULD take it over if they wanted, though, in any case. They seem to come and go at will. Who knows what the BMOL's fate will be, though. I'm not really that sure that they'll survive the season. They don't exactly roll deep.

Which I guess makes sense now that we know about their ridiculously kill-happy Code lol

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8 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think they COULD take it over if they wanted, though, in any case. They seem to come and go at will. Who knows what the BMOL's fate will be, though. I'm not really that sure that they'll survive the season. They don't exactly roll deep.

Oh, definitely, they totally could take over the bunker at anytime. They have the numbers in comparison to Sam and Dean. And, IMO, if they really were smart, they would've by now instead of building that temporary base that left them totally exposed, not only to the supernatural, but humans as well. But, if they were smart, they would've just introduced themselves and asked Winchesters for help instead of kidnapping and torturing their potential recruits.

As to whether the Brits will survive the season, I think it likely myself. I know everyone else seems to think they won't, but I feel like this season was almost all set up for next season with regards to the Brits. I actually would be surprised if the Lucifer storyline continues into next season over the BMoL.

And, I think it very likely that Mary will survive the season too. I didn't think it possible at the beginning of the season--I didn't think she'd make it past the mid-season finale at first--but I think they're setting Mary up to have a redemption arc. Plus, I think there's more revelations coming from Mary and I don't think there's time to get to it and kill her properly this season.

It's hard to say with any of these storylines though, it really could go either way.

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17 minutes ago, SueB said:

First, neither Sam or Mary warrant it.

We'll have to agree to disagree. At this point in the series, Dean needs to explode(with words) at his family, IMO; and they need to hear him and listen to what he has to say about them. Especially Mary-and he shouldn't have to take anything back and/or apologize for it later(it won't happen with Sam, I'm almost positive of that).  Again IMO.

Edited by Myrelle
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18 minutes ago, SueB said:

It's not a sign of weakness if you don't unleash verbal nuclear war on your loved ones. First, neither Sam or Mary warrant it.  But second, that really emotionally immature.  Sam definitely listened to him when he expressed his doubts and agreed to be wary.  Mary has been headstrong but it's far more effective to let her see her mistakes herself than to put her on the defensive with a petty "I told you so."

I haven't had my coffee yet but wanted to at least highlight this. If Dean could manage to not go nuclear on Sam and/or Mary, it would show a lot of character growth. And I would like to watch the last few episodes without wanting to get up and walk out of the room. JMO, nuclear scale anger makes me cringe.

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10 minutes ago, auntvi said:

I haven't had my coffee yet but wanted to at least highlight this. If Dean could manage to not go nuclear on Sam and/or Mary, it would show a lot of character growth. And I would like to watch the last few episodes without wanting to get up and walk out of the room. JMO, nuclear scale anger makes me cringe.

I think it could work if it's a, "It doesn't matter that I was right at this point--even though I was--what matters right now is what we're going to do about it."

Keep it focused on the problem at hand instead of standing around pointing fingers. That way Dean gets his "I told you so" without beating an already dead horse.

Edited by DittyDotDot
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Since it will only be played as "he is such a bully and they are such poor victims" if they are made to take any consequences, I kinda just want Dean to roll his eyes and look aloof once the BMOL fuckery comes out. In a "of course" way. At least that way, he knows he was right and doesn`t have to apologize for it later.

I still want a big comeuppance for Mary but at this point I`d take it from Ketch. Sure, he would look the bad guy in this scenario but personally I`d still cheer for him. Let him rip into her and me go all Nelson Munz-like "haha!"

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49 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

We'll have to agree to disagree. At this point in the series, Dean needs to explode(with words) at his family, IMO; and they need to hear him and listen to what he has to say about them. Especially Mary-and he shouldn't have to take anything back and/or apologize for it later(it won't happen with Sam, I'm almost positive of that).  Again IMO.

I would like to see Dean get to issue and I told you so.  Or even Sam telling Dean, 'Dean, you were right I should have listened to you."  That would be character growth for Sam.  Dean sucking up people lying to him or not listening to him isn't character growth due to the fact that we've already seen it multiple times (and the writing default.  As seen by the fact that Dean wasn't allowed to call Sam out on lying to him or ask about the colt.  )

Its why I enjoyed the first half of the season.  Dean speaking his mind so often and calling people out on their behavior and admitting he was hurt by it. 

It will never happen, but since the Brits are just douche bags and not world a world ending threat, after everything goes sideways, I'd like to see Dean tell everyone he's tired of cleaning up their mess and just walk away.  I'd call that character growth. 

Edited by ILoveReading
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I am just now watching the gold panel from Seacon, did I hear wrong that part of the season 13 thing, that is when they add some personal stuff to the bunker.  Or is Jared saying the same episode that they filmed something for season 13 is when they add it.  Love it if someone else would listen.  Question starts at 25:55.

https://youtu.be/gWxh3kzGBTU

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I watched it a while back and as I recall it sounded like they add the personal items to the bunker at some point after this season ends. I'm not sure if it means we're getting a time jump or they add these touches during the hiatus?

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Listening to it (I can't believe I missed this video!) it sounds like it's IS S13 a scene.  And it's clearly a flatscreen and a lazy boy.  Which says to me they don't lose the bunker. Since it was filmed on ~7 April, it would be either IN episode 12.22 (versus the finale) or if not, the S13.  And this might be the episode when a woman steals the Impala (leaving Mary, Jody, or Alex as potential suspects based on the cast list). It'll be interesting to see "Dean's" pissed-face to see if it looks like Jensen.

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