S04.E11: Krieg Nicht Lieb

[mascan42]

Did anybody happen to notice the awful baby wig on that kid?

http://i60.tinypic.com/120gy8p.jpg

[Quando]

 

his response to the very end of this episode was: "What's Salieri doing with Haqqani?"

Don't you mean what is Omar Suarez doing with Haqqani?  That's who I always think of.

http://s1086.photobucket.com/user/ReptoidHumidian/media/Random%20Access%20photo%20stock/OmarSuarez.jpg.html

[Kristen]

Haqqompound? Sarah, you are a gift.

[polyhymnia]

The "Really, Carrie? Really?!?" was funny in a dark way. You insult Quinn by only bringing two guys to bring him down.

I don't love that Quinn stopped the bomb just because Carrie was standing on it. I'm glad Kiran tried to get Douchebag-that-leaked-Aayan's-story out of harm's way but him being collateral damage would have been fitting.

[Helena Dax]

 I'm confused. I thought Tasneem was working with Haqqani and the Taliban behind ISI's back, but it seems the Pakistani government is protecting him openly. How is that even possible?

 

Dar Adal, wow, I didn't see that coming. I wonder what's going on, because I doubt he's working for Haqqani now.  

 

Quinn was awesome.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Helena Dax

[Pallas]

I'm kind of confused with Carrie's conversation with Khan. Maybe I missed something, but how come Carrie is acting like she had just known that the ISI is in bed with Haqqani because of the car and embassy attack? Didn't she already know this when she figured out that the ISI, and by extension Haqqani, already knew where Saul was hiding because of the drones above him? And that's why the were acting so cool while the ambassador was still trying to negotiate with the Pakistan government re: Haqqani's demands.

 

The CIA and State relied on both the Pakistani government and the ISI as their contact to Haqqani in the potential deal to free Saul.  Carrie then divined that Tasneem was actually sitting on information from Haqqani about how Haqqani's forces planned to locate Saul, even as the US team was stonewalling and stalling in an attempt to buy time to effect the rescue.  That's still a step removed from the next reveal -- from Khan, to Carrie -- that someone in the ISI was actively working against the US by suborning the husband of the US ambassador, and poisoning the CIA station chief.  Carrie was nonetheless incensed that even when she called Khan directly during the attack in the street, the ISI delayed in responding there, or to the raid on the Embassy.  That implicated either Khan himself, or his superior(s).  

 

Khan explained: "It was a coup..."    

[slowpoked]

 

The "Really, Carrie? Really?!?" was funny in a dark way. You insult Quinn by only bringing two guys to bring him down.

 

I think even Carrie knows Quinn is right, judging by the embarrassed look on her face. She probably just didn't have enough guards to bring with her as the remaining people are being evacuated. She knows she didn't have a chance.

 

I'm confused. I thought Tasneem was working with Haqqani and the Taliban behind ISI's back, but it seems the Pakistani government is protecting him openly. How is that even possible?

 

I'm confused by it too. It looks like the government soldiers are even going to provide security and convoy for him as they get him transferred "safely". I thought he is considered a terrorist, and even Bunny said that those prisoners received in the exchange will remain with the government - "We don't want to see them on the street as much as you..." And it's looking like Khan is just taking orders from Tasneem now and he's even responsible for Haqqani's safety. If that's really the case, then it's kinda rich for Bunny to correct the Ambassador - "Haqqani's demands, not ours..." - when they were doing the negotiations for Saul's release.

[Boundary]

Either a continuity error or there's been a coup offscreen. Even Tasneem isn't hiding her allegiance anymore. At the beginning I really thought the ISI and the Taliban were separate entities and that the latter had simply infiltrated the former. 

[eyetotelescope]

When I started watching this show (in S1), I asked Mr. EB if he was interested in watching. He said no but for some reason, part of the way through this season he started watching with me. He knows nothing about the first three seasons so his response to the very end of this episode was: "What's Salieri doing with Haqqani?"

 

This is literally the best post I've read on these forums yet.

 

I'm confused by it too. It looks like the government soldiers are even going to provide security and convoy for him as they get him transferred "safely". I thought he is considered a terrorist, and even Bunny said that those prisoners received in the exchange will remain with the government - "We don't want to see them on the street as much as you..." And it's looking like Khan is just taking orders from Tasneem now and he's even responsible for Haqqani's safety. If that's really the case, then it's kinda rich for Bunny to correct the Ambassador - "Haqqani's demands, not ours..." - when they were doing the negotiations for Saul's release.

 

 

 

I'm confused too.  So much fuss was made by the Pakistani government over them NOT being in league with Haqqani, and now they're just openly protecting and providing services to him.  

[Pallas]

So much fuss was made by the Pakistani government over them NOT being in league with Haqqani, and now they're just openly protecting and providing services to him.

 

The US team  back home has changed the game, and the Pakistani government/the ISI is again facilitating the play. The change of game by the real players is what Lockhart was getting wind of, back in Washington. Facilitating the play: that's why Khan met with Carrie -- to see if she had remained in Islamabad to try to pursue Haqqani, or if she were indeed trying to wrangle Peter Quinn and get out.  And that's why Khan prevented Carrie from shooting Haqqani, giving her this reason -- "Look at who he's with!"

 

The head of CIA black ops.  Khan wasn't concerned that Carrie might hit Adal.  Khan was concerned, for his sake and somewhat for hers, that Carrie not fuck up the covert deal that her superiors in her own government had worked out with his superiors in his.

[KittyS]

I really can't wait for Tasneem to get what she deserves. Watching her smug face as she questioned Khan's orders was so annoying. I hope Carrie personally takes her ass out! (Followed by sexy time with Khan, of course.)

[shapeshifter]

...I'm confused too.  So much fuss was made by the Pakistani government over them NOT being in league with Haqqani, and now they're just openly protecting and providing services to him...

It was best explained to me in the Doonesbury comic strips covering Afghanistan, Iraq, and Pakistan, like this strip from December 1, 2001 (http://doonesbury.washingtonpost.com/strip/archive/2001/12/01):

Commander Akbari: Our people were in the field around Jalalabad, but we had to switch sides four times.

Terry "Havoc" Blackburn, Jr.: Four times?

Akbari: It was a very confusing battle.

[WearyTraveler]

I'm not surprised by television much these days, but seeing Dar Adal in that car totally surprised me.  So, I've been trying to connect the dots, and here's what I'm thinking.

 

Considering these points:

 

1) The scene they showed in the "previously on Homeland" segment is not some random scene. The actor has been on the show for two seasons, so they had a decent selection of clips, but if chose show this one in particular, there must be something important about it. Just like they chose a scene where Aayan is saying good bye to his girlfriend.  It reminded us that she cared about him and that she probably still though he was safe and sound somewhere, both of which are essential for us to buy that she would go along with Peter's plan.

 

2) For Dar, they chose the scene where Saul and Dar are discussing their different approaches to CIA operations from last season.  If you recall, Saul wanted to get the Iranian top security guy working for the US and Dar was saying it would never fly.  Dar is the man in charge of Black Ops.  Those are the guys the US sends to do the really, really dirty work.  They do all the truly super secret operations, off the books, no records.  Only the president and a couple of more people know about there-  Dar is the guy that plans, coordinates and executes the operations that the US government publicly denies.  Do you need somebody to infiltrate a political party in another country to cause disruption, chaos and maybe even civil war? Dar is your guy! Do you want to assassinate the president of a country that causes the US pain and publicly declare your outrage at the tragedy afterward? Dar is your guy!  Do you have a diplomatic relationship with a country that doesn't authorize you to perform certain missions in their territory? Yeap, you guessed it, call Dar!   So, in this particular scene, Saul was advocating for a more subtle approach, where you make the enemy work for you and Dar was saying it is better to just get in, get your job done and get out; no traces, no records, no public accountability.

 

3) Saul is not the same man he was when he had that conversation with Dar.  He was abducted and broken.  He had held a gun to his head, fully intending to use it.  He saw the Taliban and its current leader up close and personal.  It's not just a theoretical discussion anymore.  And even before that, he wasn't happy in the public sector.  So much so, that he decided to follow a known terrorist in the airport, with no weapons, no surveillance and no ground support, other than Carrie with disastrous consequences to Saul, to be sure, but still, he did all that partly because the private security consulting gig wasn't cutting it for him anymore.

 

4) We also saw Saul asking Carrie if she was staying for Quinn, which she confirmed.  She told him Quinn, who was one of Dar's guys in S2 and who Dar personally pushed to not leave the agency this season (see Dar's visit to Quinn at the redhead's apartment where he handed Quinn the video of Sandy's murder that got Quinn onto the action again) had gone off, without support, to get Haqqani.  And then Saul headed off to the US, where Dar presumably was at the time.

 

5) Lockhart tells Carrie that they are looking for his replacement as Director of the CIA and that he can see something is going on, but, since he is on his way out, nobody is telling him anything.

 

6) Pakistan was a chief station, so, several countries reported to the Station Chief in Pakistan, including Carrie at the beginning of the season. But Lockhart handed out the entire network to Haqqani during the invasion of the embassy so, all the asses close by, with connections, or a way to get close to Haqqani have been compromised.  Whatever plan Lockhart suspects is being hatched, it can't involve any of the assets on the ground in Pakistan or the neighboring countries.  Neither can it involve the CIA handlers, as those guys would be compromised too (thanks to Lockhart's recless actions)

 

7) Kahn is not happy with Tasneem and he is not happy that he's taking orders from the Taliban.

 

I believe what happened was:

 

1) Saul got the US and was debriefed by Dar.  He told Dar everything, including the fact that Peter was after Haqqani all on his own.

 

2) Dar decided to take action.  At this point, Saul could have been an active participant, designing the plan with Dar or he could have been a passive participant, giving them the information, washing his hands of the whole mess after that and returning to Mira.  That probably depends on whether Patinkin is returning to the show next year.  If he is, my guess is that Saul had a very big involvement in the plan-  And that he will be chosen to lead the CIA after Lockhart is fired.  After all, no vice-presidents were killed under his watch; neither was the CIA HQ bombed or a US embassy attacked.

 

3) So, it is agreed that Dar must go himself.  Remember that the first time he appeared on the show several characters discussed his mysterious ways, that he still had many contacts, and the fact that not many people got to actually see his face because he was the head of the Black Ops.  He is working with Kahn, who wants the Taliban out as much as the US does.  That's why Kahn knew that Dar was CIA, that Carrie would recognize him, and that he would be in the car with Haqqani.

[alexvillage]

 

I found it interesting that the show chose to show images of Aayan to trigger Carrie's homicidal rage. Not Fara? Or any of the other 25 people Haqqani killed?

Because Carrie recruited a civilian, used him and got nothing out of it, except that he ended up killed. It's remorse. As for Fara, she was a CIA operative and the Embassy invasion was the ambassador's husband fault. Fair or not, Carrie does not feel responsible.

 

I don't get the Tasneem role either. I hope they don't make her into a kind of here, making all the pieces fall where they must so that Haqqani gets what he deserves. 

And someone with more knowledge in Pakistani culture, enlighten me. Would a woman have so much power in the government? Pakistan is very traditional culturally and women usually don't have all that power. Some families are more open but not the government. I am not even sure about her not covering her head, although I think Islamabad might be a little more "progressive". I still find it odd that she is allowed to deal all the cards in the government so openly

[Pallas]

Great post, Weary Traveler.  Terrific analysis to support your theory that Saul came home, was debriefed, and either crossed over to Adal's side of the table to actively plan the new tactics -- where he still sits -- or gave Adal enough info and insight to set them in motion before making his way away from Langley and home to his wife.  

 

Someone has to be Director next year, that someone probably has to be in conflict with Carrie, and it would make sense for the conflict to center around the different blows and lessons each character has absorbed this year.  And always, both would know that Carrie three times had it in her power to have ended Saul before he became someone else.  

[izabella]

I don't get the Tasneem role either. I hope they don't make her into a kind of here, making all the pieces fall where they must so that Haqqani gets what he deserves. 

And someone with more knowledge in Pakistani culture, enlighten me. Would a woman have so much power in the government? Pakistan is very traditional culturally and women usually don't have all that power. Some families are more open but not the government. I am not even sure about her not covering her head, although I think Islamabad might be a little more "progressive". I still find it odd that she is allowed to deal all the cards in the government so openly

 

Benazir Bhutto was elected Prime Minister in Pakistan a couple of times.  She was charged with corruption at some point, went into exile in Dubai, and then came back to Pakistan, only to be assassinated a short while later while she was running in the general election.  Her father was PM at some point and their family was a prominent political family.  Benazir is their only female PM (which is still one more than the US has had female presidents).

 

I don't know about women in leadership roles in the ISI, though.  I would expect they'd have desk jobs, but not be in the field nor in leadership positions.

Edited December 16, 2014 by izabella

[Blakeston]

I don't know.  US and NATO combat forces are in action in Afghanistan, territory Haqqani has several times been cited as controlling in part.  He now holds (and surely may have shared with the ISI) information about CIA informants in Pakistan -- in fact, that may be one of Tasneem's motives in allying with him: gaining CIA-held information about Pakistani citizens.  If keeping Haqqani alive can be construed to help Pakistan conduct its internal security and the US/NATO conduct their combat operations, then yes, I think a deal might be struck.  Dar Adal could certainly argue precedent.

 

But there's no precedent for the U.S. striking a deal with someone who just conquered an American embassy and killed a bunch of its employees. After doing that, Haqqani would become the new Bin Laden in the eyes of the American people.

[slowpoked]

 

they chose the scene where Saul and Dar are discussing their different approaches to CIA operations from last season.

 That's an interesting callback actually, because Dar's principle of "the mission always comes before the people" has been mostly an important theme this season, and Carrie herself was confronted with that when she wanted to take Haqqani out even if it meant killing Saul. At that moment, Carrie was prepared to choose the mission. It's actually quite a nice touch of irony, that Quinn, who worked under Dar Adal the longest and should be very familiar with his principles, chose the person over the mission.

 

 

Those are the guys the US sends to do the really, really dirty work.  They do all the truly super secret operations, off the books, no records.

That's true. IIRC, back in Season 2, Quinn and Dar were running a side operation unknown to Carrie and Saul: assassination of Brody after he has served his purpose (I forgot what it was that time). It just didn't go through because they needed him still.

 

 

 

1) Saul got the US and was debriefed by Dar.  He told Dar everything, including the fact that Peter was after Haqqani all on his own.

2) Dar decided to take action.

 

That's a pretty fast turnaround of events though. Wasn't the last episode exactly the day after the first wave of evacuations, meaning Saul might have probably just landed in US while Carrie is looking around town searching for Quinn? And I assume the debriefing would take awhile, given Saul's condition. Then Dar would have to make that trip to Pakistan, go through the ISI and Taliban network and have some significant conversations with Haqqani. That would take days, I think.

 

I think whatever Dar is doing, it didn't involve debriefing of Saul. It was probably put in motion the moment the embassy was attacked, or even before that. He likely already knew of the embassy breach plan, since he seems within the inner circle of Haqqani. He let the attack happen, even if it meant losing CIA operatives and making the US looking like a weakling to the world, so the bigger "plan" can be set in motion. 

 

 

Can anyone tell me what "krieg nicht lieb" means?  I think I know but I'm not sure.

 War, not Love is the literal meaning, I think.

Edited December 16, 2014 by slowpoked

[Haleth]

Can anyone tell me what "krieg nicht lieb" means?  I think I know but I'm not sure.

[Bcharmer]

krieg = war

nicht = no (not?)

lieb = love

 

But put together? Not sure. Just assumed the German title was because of Quinn's friend/ex-lover.

[alexvillage]

Yes, it is War, Not Love, but it is not a "real" expression. I think it is a reference to "Love, Not War".

 

 

Benazir Bhutto was elected Prime Minister in Pakistan a couple of times.

Yes, I thought about her being a leader and all but she was elected, not appointed to have so much power. I was just thinking if this is really a possible career  for a woman.

[maddiewackers]

Does anyone remember what Dar Adal threatened Quinn with in Episode 3? I think that may come into play in the next episode.

[slowpoked]

Upon rewatch, there's one thing I didn't quite understand - why is there suddenly a Kill Order on Quinn? Is it because he went AWOL? I know he abducted that ISI contractor, but how did they even know it's Quinn? And why was he being followed in the first place? Quinn is not like that contractor - he is a CIA official just like Carrie.

 

The location of that truck is very suspicious too. It's not even that far off from the embassy gate, is just behind one of the soldiers' trucks by the embassy and with Pakistani soldiers just milling around. Why wouldn't they question a suspicious truck parked along the embassy? Oh, it's because they're really working for Haqqani. In that case, why even ask for embassy security when these very soldiers assigned to guard that place are all basically Haqqani allies anyway?

[neonlite]

 

 

krieg = war

nicht = no (not?)

lieb = love

Not sure about this, but according to German-English dictionary, lieb means lovely. It's liebe which means love. The title could actually mean something like  "War is not prettyl".

[Bcharmer]

Not sure about this, but according to German-English dictionary, lieb means lovely. It's liebe which means love. The title could actually mean something like  "War is not prettyl".

 

Thank you for the correction. I should have used google translate.

 

Something I must have missed. Near the end of the last episode, Quinn had Farhad Ghazi at gunpoint, with an array of torture instruments at the ready. He asked him where Haqqani was, then knocked him out, tied him up, and took his phone. But THEN what? What did he get out of him, other than the phone, and why didn't we get to see it? Kahn told Carrie that Quinn abducted one of their men, so is he still captive, or not? All we know is Quinn didn't get Haqqani's location from Ghazi, because his German friend got a tech at her embassy to do that by running numbers similar to the phones that Quinn had. So, ultimately, Quinn abducted Ghazi just to get a phone?

Edited December 17, 2014 by Bcharmer

[alexvillage]

My husband is German and he did say it is not a "correct" expression. So I guess it is up for interpretation.

[bunnyblue]

Something I must have missed. Near the end of the last episode, Quinn had Farhad Ghazi at gunpoint, with an array of torture instruments at the ready. He asked him where Haqqani was, then knocked him out, tied him up, and took his phone. But THEN what? What did he get out of him, other than the phone, and why didn't we get to see it? Kahn told Carrie that Quinn abducted one of their men, so is he still captive, or not? All we know is Quinn didn't get Haqqani's location from Ghazi, because his German friend got a tech at her embassy to do that by running numbers similar to the phones that Quinn had. So, ultimately, Quinn abducted Ghazi just to get a phone?

 

I'd like to know what became of Ghazi. Are we to assume Quinn killed him after taking his phone? Or did I miss a line of dialogue somewhere?

[stormy weather]

 

Not sure about this, but according to German-English dictionary, lieb means lovely. It's liebe which means love. The title could actually mean something like  "War is not prettyl".

I think that was just sloppy work by the writers who forgot to add an "e" after "lieb". alexvillage and her husband are (obviously!) correct, written like that it doesn't mean anything (I've been living in Berlin for a few years now). I know it's a negligible mistake, but it still bothers me when people are this sketchy. It's three words, come on, it's called "copy/paste". 

 

I know this show is Gordon & Gansa's A Series of Fortuitous Happenstances, but I kept wondering what were the chances that Quinn would catch sight of Carrie (who was already standing exactly on top of the bomb, of all places) in all that mayhem and with such perfect timing. Carrie, you could've died! Like last week in that car bombing thing and on an average of once per episode for the past 4 seasons! It's getting a bit ridiculous at this point but I still love the show.

 

As for Carrie and Quinn, at first I thought I had sensed something more than simple concern for one of your colleagues in Carrie's words "I can't lose you, Quinn, I CAN'T" and in the tears in Quinn's eyes after he decided to self-boycott his carefully planned operation. But then I thought about it some more, and I don't think they're in love. I think Carrie had just lost Aayan, another bunch of co-workers, Fara and her dad (probably in this order of importance to her), and the ever-lingering Brody, of course, so she had to hold on to the last friendly face she had left in, probably, the world (her sister resents her and she hasn't seen her daughter since the delivery, more or less). Quinn's tears were more tears of failure than tears of love. He had the chance to end this whole Haqqani mess and get his longed-for closure and then, once again, everything went awry. What I mean is It's not Carrie, he wouldn't have pushed that button even if it was Max, or Fara or his motel manager girlfriend standing on that grate and maybe he would've teared up just the same. 

 

Finally, that baby looks more like Damian Lewis than his real kids.

Edited December 18, 2014 by stormy weather

[Kel Varnsen]

I liked this episode, this show is completely different from what it was in season 1, but for this new type of show, it is actually pretty good. I am not sure what the point of Quinn's plan is, other than revenge. I mean at first he was talking about getting back that asset list, but I think with how long it has been that ship has sailed.

 

I did laugh about when they were talking about how pulling out of Pakistan basically hands the Taliban Afghanistan. If only the CIA had some high level government asset in a country that borders Afghanistan. Oh wait they totally do. It has been a whole season and I haven't heard anything about how that thing with Javadi played out, and that was supposed to be Saul's crowning achievement as a CIA guy.

 

 

It is my understanding that the CIA station is being completely dismantled and further operations are not allowed, therefore no support whatsoever for Quinn.

 

 

They could always launch a drone attack from Kabul station. I mean they basically said everything is being transferred to Kabul anyways.

 

 

But there's no precedent for the U.S. striking a deal with someone who just conquered an American embassy and killed a bunch of its employees. After doing that, Haqqani would become the new Bin Laden in the eyes of the American people.

To be fair the US in Homeland is nothing like the real US. I mean their US is a place where there has: been a suicide bomb attack on US soil, Al Qaeda hit squads are on the loose in the US and shooting up people including CIA officers, the CIA headquarters has been blown up with a ton of important people and the person blamed for it is an elected congressman/war hero, and a top level Al Qaeda terrorist managed to sneak into the country. The fact that the US hasn't completely closed off all their borders, deported all non-citizens and declared martial law says something is different.

[alexvillage]

 

They could always launch a drone attack from Kabul station. I mean they basically said everything is being transferred to Kabul anyways.

A drone strike would kill all the civilians around (which I understand it is considered different from the drone at the wedding, which was a [terrorist] family affair. Not that I agree with this). That's why the house was in a busy street. With all the backlash agains civilians being killed by the excessive use of drones (whatever it is justified or not, fair or not), I don't think a drone attack would be a viable or wise choice (besides there would be retaliation against the americans left behind)

[emmyloo85]

Does anyone else think that Carrie and Aasar Khan might hook up? I feel like the situations the two of them have been put in (i.e., Carrie kissing and hugging him, being brutally emotionally honest in front of him, even if she didn't realize it was him), certainly hint that a hookup is possible. But it looks like she is headed back to D.C., so who knows. I certainly wish it would happen. Honestly, I think her relationship with Quinn is good for friendship but not romance. They don't seem to have that kind of chemistry. 

[bunnywithanaxe]

I think they are totally setting us up for Khan and Carrie, but that makes me hope they flip the switch and, I dunno, do Carrie and Lockhart.

( I am now savoring the image of spit takes happening all over the nation...)

[emmyloo85]

Carrie and Lockhart would be a blast, lol. I hope they don't kill Khan in the finale...I'm not sure why they would, but you never know. Lots of people usually die in finales. 

[Pallas]

Upon rewatch, there's one thing I didn't quite understand - why is there suddenly a Kill Order on Quinn? Is it because he went AWOL? I know he abducted that ISI contractor, but how did they even know it's Quinn? And why was he being followed in the first place? Quinn is not like that contractor - he is a CIA official just like Carrie.

 

In his meeting with Carrie, Khan made it clear that he (therefore the ISI) knows all about who Quinn is and what he would make it his business to tend to, once he went rogue.  What Khan did not see fit to share with Carrie -- not right then, anyway -- was the source of that knowledge.  I think he saved that reveal for the moment Carrie had a gun trained on Haqqani, sitting next to Dar Adal.  

 

The next question is, how much else of what we've seen so far has Adal helped orchestrate?  How long has he been working in Islamabad?  And was he only empowered to act after the Embassy raid? 

[dwmarch]

In his meeting with Carrie, Khan made it clear that he (therefore the ISI) knows all about who Quinn is and what he would make it his business to tend to, once he went rogue.

 

Futher to this, there are two kinds of spies: declared and undeclared. Carrie, as CIA Station Chief for Islamabad, would be a declared spy with diplomatic cover. That means if the host government catches her in an act of espionage all they can do is declare her Persona Non Grata and kick her out of the country.

 

Carrie tried to claim that Quinn had diplomatic cover by calling him her "Chief of Support". Khan made it clear that the diplomatic ship had already sailed and sank and Quinn was to be treated as an undeclared spy.

[Kel Varnsen]

Futher to this, there are two kinds of spies: declared and undeclared. Carrie, as CIA Station Chief for Islamabad, would be a declared spy with diplomatic cover. That means if the host government catches her in an act of espionage all they can do is declare her Persona Non Grata and kick her out of the country.

 

Carrie tried to claim that Quinn had diplomatic cover by calling him her "Chief of Support". Khan made it clear that the diplomatic ship had already sailed and sank and Quinn was to be treated as an undeclared spy.

At that point they were packing up the embassy, so no more diplomatic relations. I am not sure, but I assume once that happens, the host country is under no obligation to give diplomatic immunity to anyone still on the ground. I would also imagine they could revoke his diplomatic visa, meaning he was in Pakistan illegally.

[jjj]

Wow, I am binge watching this season over the holiday week (do this every year, ho, ho, ho), and it takes longer than twelve hours because I have to read all the comments for each episode before the next one.  I am greatly appreciating the lack of next-week spoilers in all the threads, as well as all the reactions!  This season works very well when viewed over four days, because the weaker episodes just evaporate as the stronger episodes happen.  I'd love to see a season five with Khan and Quinn in it, but I'll find out tonight if that is even possible.  I was also hoping Carrie is not taking any souvenir of Ayaam back with her, as her encounters seemed rather spontaneous. 

 

If Lockhart really is out of the loop (after one or two days back in the USA), who is making the decisions?  I'll find out tonight! 

[ali59]

So apparently there is a Kinko's in Islamabad.  Terrorists and rogue CIA alike must be getting their oversized photos somewhere.

[Roseanna]

On ‎15‎.‎12‎.‎2014 at 5:09 PM, stillshimpy said:

I think because there was absolutely no reason to kill Aayan at that moment other than to flip Carrie the bird.  He'd done the damage he could do.  He literally was no further threat to Haqqani.  He didn't know anything.  He hadn't chosen to work with the CIA.  It would have been just as easy -- and made a shit-ton more sense because Aayan was his family -- to let Aayan live at that moment.  Even if he just freaking left him there.  

So Haqqani killed his own blood relative, specifically to say "Up yours" to the CIA in general and Carrie in particular.  

There was a reason to kill Aayan: revenge for his betrayal. And by killing his own nephew Haqqani showed to others what would be the prize betrayal. 

On ‎16‎.‎12‎.‎2014 at 7:37 AM, KittyS said:

I really can't wait for Tasneem to get what she deserves. Watching her smug face as she questioned Khan's orders was so annoying. 

I rather admire Tasneem. She is a real professonial who with Haqqaani beat Carrie 3-0.

Also her motivation - dislike of Americans who have bossed over Pakistani for years - is understandable.

Only, she doesn't seem to understand that she is helping to create such a society where women lack all rights. In this she reminds me in The Handmaid's Tale's Serena Joy.     

[Roseanna]

On ‎15‎.‎12‎.‎2014 at 5:40 AM, Loandbehold said:

Quinn pissed me off this episode, which is unusual as I love the character and the way Rupert Friend plays him. But, when he was yelling at Carrie that he listened to her about Haqqani and now many of his friends are dead, my thought was, "and who aborted Carrie's order to have the drone shoot Haqqani when they had the chance?" What made it worse was when he used the drone pictures of Haqqani shooting Ayan and gave the woman the video. Did he forget that he was the one who stopped Carrie's order? So, Quinn, if you're going to blame Carrie for the deaths of your comrades, you should first take a look in the mirror. Or else, just put the blame where it belongs - on Haqqani. 

I don't think that the crux of the matter was whether the arguments were true or not but the development of Quinn and Carrie during the season. They began in the opposite points and then they changed but in the end they were again in the opposite points. 

First, Carrie ordered the drone strike without checking the situation, seduced Aayan and was ready to get Saul killed in order to kill Haqqani whereas Quinn criticized her methods, cared for individual people and was ready to quit the CIA. Then, Carrie two times refused to get Saul killed and after Fara's death was for once ready to follow orders, accept defeat and leave Pakistan whereas Quinn wanted on his own to kill Haqqani. Only, Carrie couldn't lose also Quinn, so she stayed.

In the final scene, Quinn would have killed Haqqani, but couldn't kill Carrie. Also Carrie changed her mind: she would have killed Carrie, unless Khan would have prevented her and she had seen Dar.  

[Roseanna]

On ‎18‎.‎12‎.‎2014 at 5:05 AM, stormy weather said:

I think that was just sloppy work by the writers who forgot to add an "e" after "lieb". alexvillage and her husband are (obviously!) correct, written like that it doesn't mean anything (I've been living in Berlin for a few years now). I know it's a negligible mistake, but it still bothers me when people are this sketchy. It's three words, come on, it's called "copy/paste". 

 

I don't think it's sloppy work but "e" is intentionally left out in order to make a rhyme (Krieg/Lieb). That's quite an usual practice in old poems. 

Edited July 1, 2018 by Roseanna
correcting grammar