The Flash and Other Superheroes

[Trini]

A compare/contrast thread to discuss The Flash and other similar (or not) TV shows. Arrow/crossover talk goes here too.

 

----------------------------

 

The superpowers and villain-of-the-week format makes it resemble early Smallville; however, I think they're doing a really good job with their season-long arc with the mystery of shady Dr. Wells.

[Sakura12]

This awesome vid was posted on the Arrow thread. It belongs here too. 

 

DC Vs Marvel!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KxIHVGch8I

[Trini]

So Superman was on TV yet again, and I only just realized the show made a reference to the movie in "Flash vs. Arrow". It's when Iris says she wants to call The Flash by his real name, and Barry answers "Like, Ralph?" -- which is the same answer Superman gave Lois Lane.

[Trini]

So do you think the death of Oliver/Arrow will get mentioned in Central City? The show airs before Arrow, so I don't really expect anything in the first episode after the break, but I figure Barry should find out about it. From Felicity hopefully, unless they have her be in denial and she doesn't want to tell him.

[quarks]

I figured the shows might do something similar to what Buffy and Angel did when Buffy "died" at the end of season five of her show - have it mentioned at the end of an upcoming episode, though probably with a phone call instead of an in person visit. But that assumes that Team Arrow decides to tell anyone.

[MarkHB]

I think it depends on how long they play the "missing" angle, with a bias towards "not used to much effect on The Flash." I admit, I'm presuming he'll get better.

[KirkB]

I imagine by the time Felicity and the others come to terms with Oliver being dead enough to tell Barry and company that Oliver will be back and it won't actually matter anymore.

[Trini]

That's pretty much what I figure too, KirkB; but I think that the Arrow being missing is worth a mention on the spin-off show.

[wingster55]

I would hope Diggle or Felicity think to inform Barry etc. 

[Trini]

I'm still hoping for a mention, but after seeing how much stuff happened in the last episode, I'm now thinking that there won't be one just because it's going to be too busy over here.

[FurryFury]

I hope there won't be any mentions. Flash is its own show, as it should be. The Buffy/Angel example made a lot of sense, but that was because of the long history between the characters, there really isn't one with Barry and Oliver. It's one thing if Oliver's death was permanent, but it's obvious it won't last beyond a couple of episodes, so what's the point.

[bluebonnet]

The only way I can see it being mentioned on Flash is if Oliver's disappearance and alleged death become public knowledge and ends up on the news.  That would ruin his secret identity so I can't imagine the writers doing it that way.  Felicity may call to cry it out, but she's just as likely to not want to voice it because denying it means she gets to pretend it isn't true (which it isn't, but she doesn't know that just yet).  If there's a mention, I imagine it would be sometime way in the future as some passing remark when/if they team up again.  

[bettername2come]

I think they've got a decent way around it for now. In Arrow's timeline, it's been four days since Oliver left, however The Flash has had more time since "The Man in the Yellow Suit" and both midseason finales took place around Christmas. If they ever thought Oliver was dead, they would have been told otherwise by this point. No way Oliver's going to stay dead longer than a few episodes in Arrow.

[Trini]

Vixen -- a new animated show based off a DC superheroine -- will be in the same universe of The Flash/Arrow.

 

Guggenheim interview about the show.

 

 

Marc Guggenheim: ...

It's a six-part origin story, but characters from "Flash" and "Arrow" are prominently involved. It's in the continuity and the world. There's actually a question I've been getting on Twitter a lot, "Is Oliver going to find out that Felicity kissed Barry?" That's actually going to happen in the "Vixen" cartoon. Part of the fun is that close cohesion.

 

http://cwseed.com/shows/vixen/ -- No info yet about when it's coming out.

[Trini]

From the producer interview I linked in the media thread:

 

 

Is there any particular reason why Central City doesn’t find out about the Oliver situation?

 

KREISBERG:  When you do these things and you have these shared universes, sometimes it’s the coolest thing ever.  <snip> But then, sometimes, it’s a real hindrance because we’re like, “Oliver’s missing.  Call Barry and have him run to Nanda Parbat, and run all over the place until he finds him.”  So, when it serves us, it’s absolutely great.  But the more we talked about it, bringing all that up on The Flash side of things, especially given all of The Flash stories, knowing that Oliver is missing created more problems than it was worth.  If we addressed it on the show, then it would seem a little bit unsympathetic because they were not throwing all of their S.T.A.R. Lab resources into finding Oliver.  ...

 

And I thought this snippet touching on the differences between the shows was really interesting:

 

... I think one of the great strengths of The Flash is just how close everyone is on the show.  They tend not to have these raging conflicts, like what we keep giving everybody on Arrow.  That show is more of a soap opera, and I don’t say that derogatorily.  I’m one third responsible for that soap opera.  But there, we always think to ourselves, “How can we hurt these people more?  What’s the worst thing we can do to Thea?  What’s the worst thing we can do to Laurel?  What’s the worst thing we can do to Oliver?”  And the drama comes from there.  Part of the strength of The Flash is that the drama comes from how these people who have banded together and love and trust each other, and how they deal with conflicts that come their way.

Emphasis mine.

[Trini]

Well, at least there was a Flash mention on Arrow tonight.

 

Bad guy: "Are you that red streak I've been hearing about on TV?"

Arsenal: "Wrong city."

[Chicago Redshirt]

In another thread, something got me thinking about how Flash compares to Smallville. Which I suppose in general is favorably because the execution is so much better.

 

But there seems to be a good deal of correspondence between some of the characters.

 

Barry and Clark are obviously counterparts for each other. But Barry is less angsty, more fun and more mature.

 

Iris and Lana are also obviously counterparts. Beautiful recipients of the hero's age-old crush, who end up hooking up with another despite what is supposed to be a powerful and somewhat mutual attraction. Both also seem to flutter between careers. And both take traditionally white roles and are portrayed by women of color. That of course makes Eddie the Whitney equivalent. 

 

Wells is a mix of Lex and Lionel Luthor. Smarter than just about anyone else around, with a hidden/not-so-hidden evil streak.

 

Caitlin=Chloe. 

 

Cisco=Ramon

 

Joe=Pa Kent.

[Trini]

Did you mean Cisco=Pete Ross?

 

And then the parade of freaks of the week, mostly from the STAR Labs explosion instead of the meteor shower.

[Maverick]

 I don't read comics so I had no idea who Peekaboo was until this episode, but I'm assuming she was the basis for Sarah Carter's character in Smallville.

[Trini]

Without looking it up, she was a love interest for Clark for a hot second, right? But as I understand, Peekaboo is fairly recent new character; I don't think she was around to inspire the Smallville character.

[Cirien]

RE: The comparisons of Smallville to The Flash:

 

While Barry comes off as more mature and less angsty that's because well he's older (Well above the legal drinking age) and you know *not* the sole survivor of his people (Well if we ignore the clone storyline and Kara), which brings me to the most important point: Clark's, you know an Alien.

But I do think the other comparisons are spot on, and I think that the Flash's creators have looked at what worked and didn't work on Smallville and used it on this show.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Sorry, yes, I meant Cisco=Pete.

 

Sarah Carter's character was known as "KentFan" on TWOP (RIP), and was a teleporter (albeit one who wasn't saddled with the limitation that she had to see where she was going). I think it's safe to assume that there's no direct connection and rather it's something where various powers are going to surface at some point during a superhero/sci-fi show.

 

Clark toward the end of the series was presumably close in age to the 20-something that Barry is. Still immature and angsty. 

 

Yes, Clark's people were mostly killed. That, however, was not presented as the prime source of his angst. On a regular basis, his angst seemed to do with a) not being able to hook up with Lana; b) him having to maintain his Secret or people trying to suss out his secret c) dissatisfaction with leading the farmboy life/being relatively poor compared to how he could be rich if he used his abilities to the fullest. 

 

Barry has a lot of similar sources of potential angst in his life as well -- his mom being murdered and dad being unjustly imprisoned, his apparently having been bullied while growing up, and being seen as a nerd, plus his relationship with Iris.

 

Maybe it's that Grant is a better actor than Tom Welling, or that the writers of Flash have decided to go lighter on the angst. But whatever the case, the Flash doesn't shy away from these traumas/issues existing but doesn't make it so Barry just wallows in them either.

[Cirien]

He was also a *teenager* and when the series ended, younger than Barry. Again it's not fair to compare the even if the two serieses are similar in tone.

[MarkHB]

Anyone who knows the comics history better than I, was Firestorm ever able to separate into Ronnie and Stein and then recombine in the comics?  I always thought they were permanently merged.  But, that was never one of the books I bought regularly so I could be wrong.

[KirkB]

I haven't read the books in a long time but I think they were permanently fused. Then later they got separated, I think Stein fused with someone else, and there have been other Firestorms since. I need someone more knowledgeable of DC to confirm or correct this.

[Chicago Redshirt]

In the original run of Firestorm and as far as I know for most of the character's existence, Ronnie and Dr. Stein were able to separate and recombine basically at will. The two didn't even need to be touching or nearby, IIRC. Ronnie could just *whoop* blink Dr. Stein in and the two would become Firestorm. Ronnie started off the primary consciousness and Dr. Stein was there to give him advice.

 

There have been various other takes of the character since, including that Jason Rusch and Ronnie formed Firestorm, and that Jason could form Firestorm with various random people.  I wouldn't be surprised if at some point there was a semi-permanent merging of Firestorm components, but I think for the most part they could split apart. 

[Trini]

I don't know if the producers were thinking about a spin-off, but I think the set-up for Firestorm is a lot better than the tedious slog with Ray Palmer/Atom over on Arrow.

[FurryFury]

Well, I haven't seen him in a major role, but there's no way Brandon Routh is as bad as Robbie Amell. So, if I had to choose, I'd choose Atom (also because I don't watch Arrow and thus, don't have any opinion on the character, while Ronnie actively bores me). Also, I want a female-centered superhero show (Supergirl doesn't count, it will probably suck, based on the spoilers from casting calls).

Edited February 19, 2015 by FurryFury

[Chicago Redshirt]

I know that there are practical reasons why it won't happen, but I would like a DC Showcase show that would allow 4-8 episode arcs with whatever superhero(s) the powers-that-be's boat.

 

The goodness of Agent Carter strongly suggests that it is easy to ensure quality is high when there's no real room for treading water.

[quarks]

Brandon Routh is a better actor than Robbie Amell, but Victor Garber can make up for the acting lack, and Ray Palmer's introduction on Arrow has not exactly been inspiring. I'm much more interested in two guys who merge together, fly, catch on fire, and think that their next logical destination is Pittsburgh, instead of Disney World or Vegas, than what I've gotten so far from Ray Palmer.

[FurryFury]

Brandon Routh is a better actor than Robbie Amell, but Victor Garber can make up for the acting lack

 

It's the CW, they'll be counting days before killing him off, like they do with most older actors (RIP, Moira Queen). Or maybe do it in the pilot, because I'm not sure he'll want to star in a CW show.

 

I'm much more interested in two guys who merge together, fly, catch on fire, and think that their next logical destination is Pittsburgh, instead of Disney World or Vegas, than what I've gotten so far from Ray Palmer.

 

Heh, I guess this is where me not being a comic book fan comes into picture, because I don't give a damn about powers, I care about characterization and acting, and Ronnie has basically zero personality coupled with a  block of wood as his actor.

[quarks]

 

Heh, I guess this is where me not being a comic book fan comes into picture, because I don't give a damn about powers, I care about characterization and acting, and Ronnie has basically zero personality coupled with a  block of wood as his actor.

 

I wouldn't describe myself as a comic book fan these days, but that's more or less the problem with Ray Palmer - well, Routh isn't a block of wood, but otherwise, his personality is mostly a blend of "bland" and "kinda creepy." It's possible that once either show lets him talk to someone not named Felicity Smoak that might improve, but so far, I found Ronnie and Stein more interesting. Bonus points for not being motivated by the death of a woman.

[cambridgeguy]

If the new animated show is popular they'll probably try to make a spinoff with Vixen.  Have her show up on Flash/Arrow a couple of times and see if she clicks, much like they did with Barry.  With Barry as the Superman and Ollie as the Batman of this particular universe she could be the Wonder Woman.

[FurryFury]

I don't know anything about Vixen, but that would be a hoot. Still, I'm not sure she's a popular enough character for a spin-off - even non-comic book fans like myself have heard about Green Arrow and Flash, but I've only heard about Vixen when CW ordered an animated series about her for their sub-network or whatever. OTOH, I've heard about Atom and Firestorm before, so it's probably not an indicator.

[cambridgeguy]

They'd have to do some more groundwork on Arrow/Flash to set her up but it could still work since she's not the one expected to start this whole universe.  Virtually nobody had heard of the Guardians of the Galaxy but that didn't stop them from capitalizing on the association with Marvel movies and making a mint at the box office.

 

Ideally, race/gender/sexual preference/etc. are all secondary to the most important thing - well acted and competently written characters in good stories.  Being an unknown quantity will give them a lot of freedom with creating a hero like Vixen.  The broad outlines of a guy like Barry Allen are pretty much set, and since Ollie is supposed to be Batman with a bow that pretty much locked him in to a certain archetype as well.

[CabotCove]

If the new animated show is popular they'll probably try to make a spinoff with Vixen.

 

The animated series is a spin off of the Arrow & Flash. I guess you mean live action spin off.  I really don't see why that would be necessary, an animated show can be just as good as live action and even better. The CGI and special effects a full Vixen show needs would probably be better suited on an animated series. Her live action counterpart could always become a recurring/regular on either Flash, Arrow or the third live action series they are planning. As much as I want to see female or black led superhero shows, I just don't see them doing two projects of the same character back to back.

 

Still, I'm not sure she's a popular enough character for a spin-off - even non-comic book fans like myself have heard about Green Arrow and Flash, but I've only heard about Vixen when CW ordered an animated series about her for their sub-network or whatever.

 

She featured quite a bit in the Justice League unlimited animated series , it was a quite a popular and successful show back them. She has been part of the justice league, JL of America, Justice league International.  Vixen sure isnt an A lister but she seems to have her own humble following. I think her animated series will be alright. 

Edited February 21, 2015 by Conell

[Trini]

Another spin-off in the works?

Maybe slow your roll, CW/WB. DC is really doubling down on the TV side of things.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Trini

[1TrackMind]

Wentworth Miller is gonna be on it? But isn't Captain Cold a bad guy? Or is he supposed to play someone else, which has potential to be confusing.

[Trini]

So, there was a Flash/Arrow shout-out on Constantine.

https://twitter.com/BlackhawkDesign/status/564246600617164800

Wentworth Miller is gonna be on it? But isn't Captain Cold a bad guy? Or is he supposed to play someone else, which has potential to be confusing.

 

He'll probably be playing the same character; maybe as the lead villain (a regular?).

[quarks]

I noted this over on the Arrow forum, but Captain Cold is one of the few characters on either show that can really easily jump to any of these three shows - he's been an actual threat to Barry, a metahuman, but he's still human, allowing him to be on Arrow.  And he was immediately popular. So it makes sense for the new show to get him, whether as a teammate or lead villain.

[Maverick]

 I actually like the sound of this.  It's certainly better than an entire show based on The Atom.  Although I assume The Atom in this show will still be some broke ass rip off of Iron Man rather than a man who cane alter his size at will.  It sounds like it they'll be rotating in heroes and villains and like Justice League Unlimited we'll see lesser know/shown characters.  I'm still holding out for Gina Torres as Vixen and Oded Fehr as Dr. Fate. 

[MarkHB]

I am actually assuming that the show Atom will, in fact, get the size-changing ability, possibly by the end of the season.  The only hints I've seen from the producers are that it won't happen "right away," but of course that doesn't mean "never".

[CabotCove]

I am actually assuming that the show Atom will, in fact, get the size-changing ability, possibly by the end of the season.  The only hints I've seen from the producers are that it won't happen "right away," but of course that doesn't mean "never".

 

By the end of Arrow's third season?, I didn't hear anything about that.

 

I assumed it would happen in the new spin off, if ever.

[MarkHB]

I haven't heard anything, I am just thinking (or, as I said, assuming) that they wouldn't have made him the Atom if he weren't going to be shrinking.  That's actually the main reason I'm even bothering with Arrow now... I've never had a lot of affection for Green Arrow as a character, but I always thought the Atom was cool.

 

Of course, right now "Ray Palmer" and "the Atom" are really just Ted Kord and Blue Beetle with the names changed because someone at WB said they couldn't use Beetle.  Oh, and with all of Ted Kord's goofy humor taken out. 

[Trini]

On Arrow ("Public Enemy"), Captain Lance goes on a rant about all the costumed crimefighters that are around now, and he mentions the "freak in Central City".

[calliope1975]

On Arrow ("Public Enemy"), Captain Lance goes on a rant about all the costumed crimefighters that are around now, and he mentions the "freak in Central City".

 

Pfft. Rude. How long until one of the "freaks" saves his life?

[CabotCove]

I haven't heard anything, I am just thinking (or, as I said, assuming) that they wouldn't have made him the Atom if he weren't going to be shrinking.  That's actually the main reason I'm even bothering with Arrow now... I've never had a lot of affection for Green Arrow as a character, but I always thought the Atom was cool.

 

From the latest Arrow episode, Ray has robots that can do the shrinking for him and enter people's bodies, therefore I dont think its necessary that he should shrink himself. I think for TV, what they are doing here works better. Ray can always build nano sized objects and robots. In this universe he is called the ATOM because it stands for Advanced Technology Operating Mechanism, it has nothing to do with size.

[MarkHB]

From the latest Arrow episode, Ray has robots that can do the shrinking for him and enter people's bodies, therefore I dont think its necessary that he should shrink himself. I think for TV, what they are doing here works better. Ray can always build nano sized objects and robots. In this universe he is called the ATOM because it stands for Advanced Technology Operating Mechanism, it has nothing to do with size.

 

I'm thinking that the nanotech shrinking the blood clot is a precursor to him actually shrinking (and that's exactly the sort of thing I would expect Cisco to come up with, too).  At least, I'm fervently hoping that's the case.  Calling him the Atom only to make him Blue Beetle in a different color scheme (and that's exactly what he is now.... honchos said they couldn't use BB so they've plugged Ray's name and hero-name into exactly the same storyline) and no shrinking is the most depressing thought I've heard about these shows, period.

 

Tl;DR: Making him shrink may not be "necessary." but it's infinitely preferable, IMHO.

[Actionmage]

honchos said they couldn't use BB so they've plugged Ray's name and hero-name into exactly the same storyline

 

These characters aren't interchangeable; they have reasons--even if just Because Comics Science!--to do what they do. Ray Palmer is not synonymous with Ted Kord. Very different characters and personalities. Yes, lots of folks don't read the comics right now, but if they seek out the comics, there will be disappointment over why the books aren't like the TV version at all.   It could cost TPTB at Warners future cash.

 

If you can't use a character? Don't just plug in any ol' character. You might end up with the mess that is Ray Palmer now.

 

Tl;DR: Making him shrink may not be "necessary." but it's infinitely preferable, IMHO.

 

Yep.

 

In this universe he is called the ATOM because it stands for Advanced Technology Operating Mechanism, it has nothing to do with size.

 

Using the names, Ray Palmer and The Atom, imply certain parameters, for some of the audience. It would be like Arrow  being Carter Hall and he uses Ping-Pong paddles to fight crime.  The Flash with Eel O'Brien and he fights crime with a Kodak Instamatic camera.  Just because it was written that way in the show, doesn't keep us who know what comic book Ray Palmer/The Atom do from being disappointed, especially as there are two other shows  on this network that get a lot of the stuff right about the named heroes of the series.

[BPOX]

While I don't disagree with you that there has to be some connection with the comic characters and their on screen persons, I kind of want to see the show that fights crime with an Instamatic Camera. 

 

Like would they get imprisoned in the picture or something. Can't be that simple or there would be no conflict.