Unpopular Opinions: All Alone in Purgatory

[Yolapukka]

 

Not a fan of the "Sophie is Ichabbie's future daughter" theory.

 

I might find it intriguing if the character needed some tweaking in order to make her work, but she already fits in beautifully. Plus they've drawn from this well already with Jeremy.

 

This might be an unpopular opinion, given that she's a secondary character and we've had a few show-eaters that stepped out from that heading, but I'd like to see a story arc that settles what happened with Sophie's parents, one that doesn't necessarily have a happy conclusion or depends heavily on retreading well-worn paths, like most of the older men having ties to a particular military unit. I'd like something that either opened new story-telling or referenced something or someone that appeared briefly, then was dropped, like Carmilla Pines.

Edited April 8, 2016 by yuggapukka

[Three]

Not that I’m feeling defensive… lol. But I’m not attached to the Sophie-daughter theory. I don’t need that to happen. I just needed to say what seemed to be there. While at the same time, once I started thinking about it, it seemed to be so blatant that I suspected it was a misdirect.

I think Sophie in the woods with Abbie reminded me of Abbie with Grace. (I love Grace.)

All I really want is a good story.

Anyway, looking forward to the finale, hoping for a season 4, hope the cast are in good places with the world and each other, hope TPTB keep their evil meddling to a minimum. I'll be joining the drinkers.

This might be an unpopular opinion, given that she's a secondary character and we've had a few show-eaters that stepped out from heading, but I'd like to see a story arc that settles what happened with Sophie's parents, one that doesn't necessarily have a happy conclusion or depends heavily on retreading well-worn paths, like most of the older men having ties to a particular military unit.

 

Joe Webb did promise no loose ends this season so hopefully they will tie it up. Sophie is a great character.

[jhlipton]

I'd be OK with Sophie being Ichabbie's daughter if there was any guarantee that we wouldn't get a repeat of CFD.  Not sure I trust the writers at this point.

[HalcyonDays]

Moved this from the episode thread.

 

I gonna be in the deep deep minority.

 

Knowing that Beharie wanted out, makes thing clearer (and in some cases muddier because why) in terms of things that went on this year.

 

I can't blame the writers for lack of Ichabbie scenes, or limited NB on screen, or writing her off, simply because this was Beharie's choice. It makes sense. The lack of presence or cancelled Comic cons. No interviews promos with her. No Ichabbie interest from her side at all - she still played it that she really liked Danny, lack of screen time, etc etc.

 

I can't blame the writers if they had to work around Beharie. And multiple reports have stated over and over again that Mison is a total gentleman, and always tried to protect Beharie whenever he could - that fact that he wants to come back? Yes, I get money, but I seriously side-eye this...there is something shady going on, I just wish I knew what it was.

 

I really don't think it's the whole "sidelining" of Abbie. This season can't be used, simply because her lack of screen time was due to accommdating NB's request. Last season she had lots of screen time (just crappy writing).

 

So why did she NOT give season 3 a chance?

 

The unpopular opinion shall be - don't blame the writers this season for what the actor wanted. They had to work around that request/reality.

[CalamityBoPeep]

 

So why did she NOT give season 3 a chance?

 

The unpopular opinion shall be - don't blame the writers this season for what the actor wanted. They had to work around that request/reality.

 

I think you've made some fair points here.  It's just that I think the writers could have done it better, but what's done is done.

 

I wonder if anyone actually tried to sit down and discuss with Nicole the issues that were actually bothering her? I have to assume they did, but maybe they just suck at hearing the main points of what someone's trying to say to them.

 

How often do showrunners and writers base their sense of the validity of their story telling on reactions on Twitter? I think that's the difficulty for me. What I mean is, for example, there are a lot of very thoughtful posts out there (or here) that have identified major underlying issues with the way the show was written, and those ideas just get kitchen-sinked with the brou-ha-ha that shows up on Twitter.

 

This is why I have very little hope anymore for any good writing coming out of Hollywood in the near future. We seem to be in the middle of a generation of hacks who are blind to their own faults and won't hear opinions they don't like. Shows I've checked out on... Once Upon A Time, Grey's Anatomy, Sleepy Hollow, and on and on... all run by people who claim they just want to tell a good story. And yet, they don't. They get maybe 2 seasons out of a good story, and then they run out of ideas and destroy what they started, partly because they just pay attention to all the surface reaction on Twitter and don't look for real analysis from fans, some of whom actually do know good writing and good stories. They want to see the flash in the pan, be the next sparkly thing people pay attention to. The only good shows out there seem to be the ones either a) based on books, where the necessity of good stories are pretty critical, or b) on subscription cable services, where they have to seriously put their money where their mouths are.

 

All these writers on Sleepy Hollow, and the failed show runners, are going to turn up very soon on another show. They all get recycled and seem to write for everything. And basically, they all buy into the tv tropes and don't actually know anything about human nature and how emotions actually work. They have no deeper insights. They just want to throw something sparkly on the screen.

[Watermelon]

Is it an unpopular opinion that IDK what everyone is SOoooooo up in arms about, with Betsy returning and how this must mean bad things and such and such?

 

Like...we did this last season. And TPTB dropped us off a most excellent episode for our troubles.  After knowing the shitty folk ended on a high note, why would you not give new boss a chance, especially with one episode left?!

Yeah.....you can completely disregard everything I had said. 

 

Yall were right. TPTB are HORRIBLE

[DearEvette]

I do blame the writers. Nicole may have wanted off but they all knew this.  it wasn't a surprise to them.  Ok, so.  Write toward that then. 

 

Lay the foundation so we could see the clues.  They were going for maximum shock and awe.  But we would have still been shocked even if we had gotten the breadcrumbs to follow the trail because as viewers we find it inconceivable that they would kill off such an important character.  But in retrospect, written well, we could have looked back and said " Ah, ha!"

 

I think half  of the anger is how they killed her.  There is a serious tone deafness in how they killed her.  How many times does Abbie have to sacrifice herself?  This'll make the third time.  Did they have to imply that her presence was simply there as "a guide" for Ichabod?  Do they not know how "Magical Negro" that sounds?  Why not just kill her in an epic battle, let her go out swinging and fierce? 

 

I think the other half the anger, esp among the hard core Nikki fans is because of the ship teasing.  They went at that really hard in the back half of the season promising a pay off that never came and now never will. Why not throw the Ichabbie shippers a bone and pay off all the UST they've been playing with for the whole damn season?  It would have cost them nothing because they knew she wasn't coming back and just might have softened the blow to some fans because at least they got that?

 

It is rather academic anyway, if the show had been well written engaging all along Nicole's leaving would have been sad and horrible but people would still be excited for the show.  For most people the ONLY thing keeping them on the show was Nicole and Tom together, so yeah, the writing is the problem.

Edited April 9, 2016 by DearEvette

[Sparkling Beth]

DearEvette, I "liked" your comment but in reality I love it.  You summed it up perfectly.  There were dozens of paths the writers could have gone down knowing that Nicole was leaving.  They could have made sure that her final season on the show was respectful and compassionate toward her and toward the viewers who love her character.  Instead we got Betsy Ross--who was hated by the viewers from the very beginning and could easily have been written off--and that weird pseudo-romance with Danny despite numerous hints that Ichabbie might yet happen. 

 

Screw the writers.  This is entirely their fault, and given that a quick perusal of the posting boards would have pointed them in a better direction, they chose to send Abbie off in the most emotionally flat way they possibly could, short of just having her get hit by a bus.

[Yolapukka]

My unpopular opinion is as much as Goffman was the ass-clown responsible for ruining the show, at least we saw some excellent episodes under his watch whereas this season has been in some ways worse by virtue of being consistently mediocre. I appreciated that they tried to be more ambitious, but they constantly tanked that tendency with formulaic plot structures.

Edited April 9, 2016 by yuggapukka

[Indi]

If there is one thing this show has taught me is: Don't trust anything they say. Absolutely never.

 

Let's begin with the tacky finger pointing, that began, as soon as this clusterfuck of a finale happened: Nicole wanted to leave (OMGZZZ WE DIDN'T ANY OTHER CHOICE BUT TO KILL HER!), not only that, but apparently she wanted to leave, before they even planned S3, which means, they had plenty of time to write a decent send off for her, after giving her a kick ass season, am I right? Sorry, that didn't happen, because of reasons. But let's dig in and see how much uglier this gets...

 

- Orlando Jones. They didn't bother to give him a goodbye. What did they say the reason was for writing him off? That's right! It was his decision, because he had a lot of projects lined up. Fast-forward an entire pregnancy... Oops! It turns out that wasn't true! In fact, they had fired him! So yeah, I'm taking the Nicole wanted out thing with a mountain and two whole moons of salt.

 

- Even if it turns out Nicole was tired of being played unfairly and really wanted to leave for greener, less fucked up pastures, above all, after witnessing the Orlando Jones fiasco, that still is not a good reason to kill her off AND in that despicable way. Nick Hawley got better treatment, for fuck's sake!

 

- It looks like Campbell intended to write her off in the mid-season finale, so he knew before the season started, that Abbie wasn't long for this world. What did Goffman 2.0 do? Bait the shippers with the promise of a slow burn and eventually Ichabbie. He lied like the lying liar he is. He played the fans to get them to keep watching, deny them payoff and then deliver a final fuck you, while hoping to have this show renewed. Bitch, please!

[Blackhoney]

Let me just add that Nicole has yet to say she chose to leave the show. Variety said SOURCES told them she wanted out, but no one affiliated with the show has come forward to verify that. Also, as another poster said, we were originally told Orlando left, only to find out months later he was fired. And let's say Nicole did want to leave, that doesn't justify the shitty writing. Actors leave shows all the time. It's not unheard of. Happens everyday. 

[Morrigan2575]

That's a very good point it's possible that this is all network/ studio spin to limit the blame/outrage.

[Julia]

I just remember when Joss Carter was killed and we heard a great deal about how Taraji Henson knew all along she was leaving and was just fine about being replaced by Amy Acker. I also remember her being a bit more forthcoming once she had a steady income again. So I guess my UO is that if we're speculating about what happened, I don't know that I'd take the folks who wrote season 3 being less than completely accurate off the table.

[vanarnd1]

I hadn't considered previously that maybe this wasn't fully her decision, but in hindsight, the timing of everything is suspicious. It odd how during the middle of Season 2 or 3 we never heard rumors about Nicole being unhappy, it is only leaked by sources once she is taken off the show. At this point it only benefits the network to have people think it was her choice, otherwise they look much worse. When you think about it, she could have had leverage if this information had come out while the show was filming, as it would maybe force the network to address her concerns, instead it seems much more likely the network leaked this information for damage control.

 

And of course the sad part is that if Nicole publicly went against the network's version of events, it could possibly hurt her job prospects in the industry. I was one of the people who didn't really consider it a possibility they would get rid of Abbie during the mid season finale, but it is jarring thinking about how close that was to happening. Maybe she did want to leave, but I feel like if she gotten assurances from CC that things would be better she could have been convinced to stay.  From the tone of the post-mortem, I don't think TPTB were tripping over themselves to keep her around. The whole situation is just so sad and frustrating the more I think about it.

[Yolapukka]

 

Joe Webb did promise no loose ends this season so hopefully they will tie it up.

 

 

Apparently they've snipped off so many loose ends that Ichabod is now the only aspect of the show guaranteed to return. Or rather, a character named Ichabod and played by Tom Mison. But that could eventually change too. I do hope that if they get another season that it doesn't come with a purged cast or with the holdovers reduced to walking plot-point cameos.

 

I wonder if wanting a fourth season might be an unpopular opinion? I'm indifferent at this point.

Edited April 9, 2016 by yuggapukka

[Enero]

Apparently they've snipped off so many loose ends that Ichabod is now the only aspect of the show guaranteed to return. Or rather, a character named Ichabod and played by Tom Mison. But that could eventually change too. I do hope that if they get another season that it doesn't come with a purged cast or with the holdovers reduced to walking plot-point cameos.

 

I wonder if wanting a fourth season might be an unpopular opinion? I'm indifferent at this point.

I'm pretty sure it is an unpopular opinion at this point. I mean really, this show is not even Sleepy Hollow anymore. They threw the baby out with bath water and drowned it when they destroyed all of the mythology built in S1 and S2 by killing Moloch, and essentially leaving the Horseman without a purpose and decimating the witnesses by killing Abbie and turning her into Crane's magical Negro.

I can't understand why anyone who came to this show in S1 and enjoyed it, would at this point want a S4. But hey to each his/her own.

[Dobian]

I don't see how this show can continue much longer because of the constant huge cast turnovers, it wrecks continuity.  This show rivals Walking Dead for killing off main cast members.

[Enero]

I don't see how this show can continue much longer because of the constant huge cast turnovers, it wrecks continuity. This show rivals Walking Dead for killing off main cast members.

I wouldn't go that far. I wouldn't even put SH in the same league as TWD. Even with all its faults, TWD is IMO a compelling show with phenomenal characters and for the most part great writing. Something that SH hasn't been since S1. TWD kills a lot of characters but it hasn't killed a main character in three seasons.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Enero

[Dobian]

I wouldn't go that far. I wouldn't even put SH in the same league as TWD. Even with all its faults, TWD is IMO a compelling show with phenomenal characters and for the most part great writing. Something that SH hasn't been since S1. TWD kills a lot of characters but it hasn't killed a main character in three seasons.

Well they have killed off a main character recently, we just don't know who it is yet. ;)

[jhlipton]

The unpopular opinion shall be - don't blame the writers this season for what the actor wanted. They had to work around that request/reality.

 

Sorry, my friend, but this is complete and utter bullshit.  Actors leave shows all the time, sometimes with less lead-time than SH had (actors dying mid-season, for example).  The writers for these shows can usually find a way to write off the character with grace and dignity.  There is no excuse for this crap.

[Watermelon]

If this was any other show, with showrunners to trust, I'd put money up that the new Abbie would still be Nicole Beharie.  I can see it so clearly, having to tell this strangers she's part of a line of witches and witnesses, and oh BTW, you look exactly like the love of this guy's life and her sister.  

 

But this is them, and I'm 200% sure Nicole is gone :(

[Three]

Joe Webb did promise no loose ends this season so hopefully they will tie it up.

 

Apparently they've snipped off so many loose ends that Ichabod is now the only aspect of the show guaranteed to return. Or rather, a character named Ichabod and played by Tom Mison.

 

Ohh, I was so young, naive, and full of hope when I wrote the above. How a day can change you.

 

 

This is why I have very little hope anymore for any good writing coming out of Hollywood in the near future. We seem to be in the middle of a generation of hacks who are blind to their own faults and won't hear opinions they don't like. 

 

Yup, yup and yup to all you said. I've been feeling very gloomy about the state of story-telling in mainstream media in the past 24 hours after feeling very hopeful. It was such a breakthrough show. They really didn't like being in the vanguard did they? Back to the status quo. I'd sigh, but it would really be a very deep long, depressed exhale, followed by looking bleakly at a wall.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Three

[Dizzychickstar]

Watermelon, if my heart is Pandora's box, your thoughts regarding NB as another character are that last foolish bit of hope I have tucked deep down into the smallest corner.

[OnceSane]

Back on topic, please.

[Sparkling Beth]

Brace yourselves, because I'm about to post the Mutha of all Unpopular Opinions.

 

If the show is renewed for Season 4, I'm going to tune in.  Right after the finale, I swore I wouldn't but--I really like Tom Mison and I have to see what happens to Crane.  That's what it boils down to.

 

Now, mind you, I think there is very little chance that it will be renewed, and if it is, it won't last long because the ratings will be abysmal.  I'll probably be the only one watching and I'm not on Nielsen's watchlist, so the producers won't have anything to crow about.

 

(I just ended two paragraphs in a row with a preposition.  Even though I don't think there should be anything wrong with that, I was an English major and it still niggles at me a bit.  Those are the kind of old-fashioned and unnecessary grammar rules that I'm nevertheless always aware of.  [Ha!  See what I did there?])

 

I'm as surprised as anyone to realize that I can't abruptly drop the show despite my anger and upset over the way this season ended.  Watching next season, if there is one, in no way negates the way I feel now.

 

At least I know I won't be alone in Purgatory.  Y'all will be there throwing rotten tomatoes at me.  Guess I'll have to learn to duck!

[blugirlami21]

I guess my unpopular opinion would be that I hope it does get renewed and no one watches it/ it's even worse than before. I absolutely won't be watching but to hear that it's tanking will make me happy. I'm vindictive like that.

[phoenics]

My Unpopular Opinion is that I really don't care if people watch or don't watch. Meaning, if they watch, fine. If they don't, cool. It's kinda like breaking up with someone and simply not caring what happens to/with them at that point. I did that with my ex-fiance where I didn't want to know ANYTHING about his life and I didn't want him to know about mine.

So if the show gets a S4 and somehow turns around? Okay. Whatever. It's still dead to me so it doesn't really matter to me what happens to it at this point. I won't be watching.

[Crackedmuse]

Sparkling Beth: If it happens, I plan to watch as well.  Because I think while it's being called Sleepy Hollow S4 now,  it would most likely be an "Angel" type spin-off with perhaps Sophie showing up at some point to assist.  She would be his Cordelia.  So there would be a connection to Abbie, but not the in your face, so to speak, type of connection Jenny would bring.  So there would be reminders of Abbie/Sleepy Hollow like there were of Buffy for Angel, but the show would be open to chart its own course.  So if it were to go that way, I think it would be interesting to watch.  I was skeptical about "Angel" but that ended up working out great.

[Three]

It's kinda like breaking up with someone and simply not caring what happens to/with them at that point. I did that with my ex-fiance where I didn't want to know ANYTHING about his life and I didn't want him to know about mine.

 

I haven't moved on as maturely as you, phoenics. I kind of hope it's not renewed so I don't have to make the decision. Otherwise I'll probably be like a facebook stalker and check how it's going on the sly and hate myself for it.

 

I don't want Tom to suffer, he's a sweet thing, but the rest of them. Meh. I'm still in the vindictive phase.

[Fosca]

Will I watch S4, should it be renewed?  No; not even the yummy goodness of Tom Mison is enough to get me to subject myself to more of this.

 

Will I be here reading what everyone who is watching writes about S4?  Hell yes I will.

[Sparkling Beth]

Sparkling Beth: If it happens, I plan to watch as well.  Because I think while it's being called Sleepy Hollow S4 now,  it would most likely be an "Angel" type spin-off with perhaps Sophie showing up at some point to assist.  She would be his Cordelia.  So there would be a connection to Abbie, but not the in your face, so to speak, type of connection Jenny would bring.  So there would be reminders of Abbie/Sleepy Hollow like there were of Buffy for Angel, but the show would be open to chart its own course.  So if it were to go that way, I think it would be interesting to watch.  I was skeptical about "Angel" but that ended up working out great.

Good point.  Angel being written off of BTVS and given his own show wasn't as upsetting as SH killing off Abbie, but I too was highly skeptical that Angel would work as a separate show yet there were times when I actually liked Angel better than BTVS.  I'm willing to give this a chance, again because of Tom Mison.  Even if it's successful (it probably won't be), the producers are not absolved of guilt for what they did.  They should still rot in hell, but in the meantime, I will enjoy looking at Tom's face.  I feel bad for him because he's really been caught in the middle of this mess.  I can't blame him for not wanting to give up the lead on a primetime TV show.  Bigger stars than he have left shows and virtually disappeared from public awareness.

[Iamsweetdee]

Unpopular opinion: I could not give less of a fuck about Tom Mison's career. H's a white dude, a British one at that, he'll be alright.  There will be plenty more roles for him.   Nicole, on the other hand...I wonder if we will ever see her on TV again. 

[Three]

Unpopular opinion: I could not give less of a fuck about Tom Mison's career. H's a white dude, a British one at that, he'll be alright.  There will be plenty more roles for him.   Nicole, on the other hand...I wonder if we will ever see her on TV again. 

 

I am pretty confident Nicole will have an awesome career ahead of her. Maybe not TV. I'm expecting to see her in films.

[phoenics]

Sparkling Beth: If it happens, I plan to watch as well.  Because I think while it's being called Sleepy Hollow S4 now,  it would most likely be an "Angel" type spin-off with perhaps Sophie showing up at some point to assist.  She would be his Cordelia.  So there would be a connection to Abbie, but not the in your face, so to speak, type of connection Jenny would bring.  So there would be reminders of Abbie/Sleepy Hollow like there were of Buffy for Angel, but the show would be open to chart its own course.  So if it were to go that way, I think it would be interesting to watch.  I was skeptical about "Angel" but that ended up working out great.

The only problem I have with this kind of comparison is that the show is still called Sleepy Hollow. A more apt comparison would be them killed off Buffy in the most unsatisfying way AND completely invalidated who we thought she was as established in the PILOT and for 3 years up until now - and never showing us Buffy/Angel consummated ever - Buffy's just dead - and then the show would come back in the Fall, STILL CALLED Buffy the Vampire Slayer - and then Angel would be the star by himself, with him having relationships with every "New Buffy" they came up with to throw at him.

It's not the same thing.

If SH had JUST given us a satisfying ending to Ichabbie/SH and let THAT happen with Abbie dying in the end, once fans discovered Abbie wanted to go, the show runners could have positioned this as their thank you to all of the fans who loved SH and Ichabbie since they knew NB was leaving, but to also open those fans to a new concept for the show.

Instead, they ship baited Ichabbie fans to death and then didn't give them that - instead killing Abbie - and all we got was a hand kiss and not even an I Love You... and REWRITING ABbie's entire purpose on the show. And making her into a mammy/sacrificer/only there to advance Crane/sidekick/stereotypical black character trope we thought Abbie had escaped.

All they had to do was make the fans happy about Ichabbie and giving Abbie the RIGHT ending. Then they would have had goodwill going into next year. Sure, some fans would have dropped off, but there wouldn't be this ANGER that will likely drive other fans away AND it also means older fans who already dropped off WON'T be coming back.

They'll be lucky if they get 0.3 when the premiere happens. Following part deux.

[CalamityBoPeep]

Will I watch S4, should it be renewed?  No; not even the yummy goodness of Tom Mison is enough to get me to subject myself to more of this.

 

Will I be here reading what everyone who is watching writes about S4?  Hell yes I will.

 

I employed the same strategy when I dropped Once Upon a Time at the halfway point of this season. There, it's been very gratifying to see that I made the exact right decision for myself. :-) I read the recap of the latest episode of that one today and found myself completely bored with the recapped story half-way through, so I'd say the weaning process is nearly complete. I'll be dropping that show off my "follow" list here fairly soon, and then I will be officially done with it. :-)

 

I'm using the same process to wean myself from Sleepy Hollow. First: a swarm of posts expressing my frustrations. Next: Cutting dvr ties and facebook ties. Next: seeking opinions that mirror my own, for validation. Next: still following here to see the specifics of where the show goes next, waiting for the remaining fans to be writing things like "Oh my God, that episode and this entire story line and arc were so incredibly amazing! So glad this show is back on track!" Finally: boredom and cutting the last remaining cord.

[cynic]

I could see the comparison with Angel. I don't think the production team here is anywhere near as good as that franchise though, nor does it have as strong as a foundation in the mythology. But who knows, they could pull it off. However, I have been thinking of season 4 more as Three's A Crowd, the terrible spinoff that dropped the main premise and most of the cast members from Three's Company and gave Jack Tripper a wife and father-in-law. Sometimes the breakout character isn't enough to carry a show.

Either way, I won't be watching. I've been mostly bored with the writing of SH for 2.5 seasons. The only thing that kept me watching was the chemistry between Crane and Abbie. I can't imagine that I'm suddenly going to start enjoying the writing more at this point.

[phoenics]

Either way, I won't be watching. I've been mostly bored with the writing of SH for 2.5 seasons. The only thing that kept me watching was the chemistry between Crane and Abbie. I can't imagine that I'm suddenly going to start enjoying the writing more at this point.

THIS. It lost much of what made it a hit when it premiered.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I could see the comparison with Angel. I don't think the production team here is anywhere near as good as that franchise though, nor does it have as strong as a foundation in the mythology. But who knows, they could pull it off. However, I have been thinking of season 4 more as Three's A Crowd, the terrible spinoff that dropped the main premise and most of the cast members from Three's Company and gave Jack Tripper a wife and father-in-law. Sometimes the breakout character isn't enough to carry a show.

Either way, I won't be watching. I've been mostly bored with the writing of SH for 2.5 seasons. The only thing that kept me watching was the chemistry between Crane and Abbie. I can't imagine that I'm suddenly going to start enjoying the writing more at this point.

 

AHEM!!!

 

No, no, no! That lame-ass and horrible show gave Jack a live-in-lover, when Jack wanted to marry her; and her father was his antagonist because they were living together "in sin." It was horrible. Just horrible.  And I never saw what Jack saw in Vicky, either. Ptooey.

 

But I've been able to cut all ties with this show. Off it went off my dvr, unfollowed on Facebook, and I don't have or do Twitter, so that's one less thing to delete.  I won't be watching, IF it gets renewed.  And I just read over in the Race and Ethnicity Thread that it's likely to be cancelled.

 

Edited April 11, 2016 by GHScorpiosRule

[phoenics]

AHEM!!!

 

No, no, no! That lame-ass and horrible show gave Jack a live-in-lover, when Jack wanted to marry her; and her father was his antagonist because they were living together "in sin." It was horrible. Just horrible.  And I never saw what Jack saw in Vicky, either. Ptooey.

 

But I've been able to cut all ties with this show. Off it went off my dvr, unfollowed on Facebook, and I don't have or do Twitter, so that's one less thing to delete.  I won't be watching, IF it gets renewed.  And I just read over in the Race and Ethnicity Thread that it's likely to be cancelled.

Wait - where did you read it was likely to be canceled? No one has posted in the race and ethnicity thread for weeks...?

And the last I heard it was highly likely to be renewed, :(

[Sparkling Beth]

I could see the comparison with Angel. I don't think the production team here is anywhere near as good as that franchise though, nor does it have as strong as a foundation in the mythology. But who knows, they could pull it off. However, I have been thinking of season 4 more as Three's A Crowd, the terrible spinoff that dropped the main premise and most of the cast members from Three's Company and gave Jack Tripper a wife and father-in-law. Sometimes the breakout character isn't enough to carry a show.

Either way, I won't be watching. I've been mostly bored with the writing of SH for 2.5 seasons. The only thing that kept me watching was the chemistry between Crane and Abbie. I can't imagine that I'm suddenly going to start enjoying the writing more at this point.

Of course it's not an exact comparison.  I have no illusions about the creative team of SH.  But I was on the Buffy posting board back when it was announced that Angel was going to be a spin-off, and believe me, the negativity was rampant.  "Dumbest idea ever!"  "What makes them think this will work?"  "I give it three episodes tops before it's cancelled."  "This is going to be the biggest TV disaster since My Mother The Car."

 

That's where the comparison lies:  people making assumptions before something has happened.  I have every reason to believe that Sleepy Hollow won't work without Nicole.  But I'm willing to give it a chance because I enjoy Tom Mison's acting (and let's be honest, good looks) enough that I know I'll have to tune in just to see how it goes.  Maybe they'll bring in some new writers and producers who will have better ideas.  We just don't know.

 

Heck, I remember reading the description of the movie Tootsie before it came out and thinking it was the end of Dustin Hoffman's career!  A man dressing up like a woman to try out for a soap opera?  It sounded so stupid but it's one of my favorite movies.  I learned then not to prejudge any project.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Wait - where did you read it was likely to be canceled? No one has posted in the race and ethnicity thread for weeks...?

And the last I heard it was highly likely to be renewed, :(

 

 

Over in the Miscellaneous TV forum--Everything Else TV-->Race & Ethnicty on TV

Edited April 11, 2016 by GHScorpiosRule

[Crackedmuse]

 

The only problem I have with this kind of comparison is that the show is still called Sleepy Hollow.

Phoenics: When I said it's being called Sleepy Hollow S4 now, I meant that if they were to take it in an "Angel" type direction the name would mostly likely change. There would clearly be connections to Sleepy Hollow, i.e., the Horseman is out there somewhere and Crane's new job is supernatural based as well as him being a Witness, just like "Angel" obviously still had vampires, monsters, and still shared Buffy's goal of saving the world.  But the show would need to stand on its own.

 

The first time I saw "Angel" I had never seen a single episode of Buffy.  But I knew what Buffy was about and that he was a character from that show, but felt I got enough exposition/callbacks, etc. from Angel that it allowed me to enjoy his show for what it was without ever having seen Buffy until she showed up in one of his episodes.  So if Crane essentially ends up in D.C. on his own, then new mythology would have to be built around whatever this job is, while still retaining the Witness foundation and goal of stopping the Apocalypse.  The End of Days would be the long term mission but the day-to-day would be George Washington's "X-Files."

 

And this is the Unpopular Opinion thread.

 

E.T.A.

I have no opinion or judgement on the merit or success of doing something like this. Just a suggestion of how it could be done.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Crackedmuse

[cynic]

AHEM!!! No, no, no! That lame-ass and horrible show gave Jack a live-in-lover, when Jack wanted to marry her; and her father was his antagonist because they were living together "in sin." It was horrible. Just horrible.  And I never saw what Jack saw in Vicky, either. Ptooey. ...

Oh, that's right! I should've remembered that since the living in sin part was the main issue.

And yeah, it's totally possible that a rebooted SH could defy expectations, but it does have an uphill battle considering the mothership's ratings are pretty terrible already.

[Dobian]

I have a feeling that Sophie will be the new witness.  I don't see the point of introducing another new character when they already have one to fill those shoes.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I have a feeling that Sophie will be the new witness.  I don't see the point of introducing another new character when they already have one to fill those shoes.

 

 

TFIC already said it would be someone new; no one who was already on the show.

 

But they've lied before, so who knows?

Edited April 11, 2016 by GHScorpiosRule

[phoenics]

nevermind.

Edited April 11, 2016 by phoenics

[Dobian]

TFIC already said it would be someone new; no one who was already on the show.

 

But they've lied before, so who knows?

 

Well if they hire a breathless talking Brit chick to play the role it will push the last remaining fans over the cliff.

 

I agree that you can't really compare SH to Angel for the reasons stated.  I was a big Buffy and Angel fan, and Angel was a strong spinoff from a strong mother show.  Shows that morph into different shows have had mixed success over the years.  Chico and the Man didn't fare too well after Freddie Prinz died and it was just "The Man" (and Charo!).  Facts of Life basically scrapped its whole format after the first season, fired over half the cast, and then reformed into a surprisingly successful 80s comedy.  Unlike those shows, this show is transitioning with a ton of negative baggage.

[GHScorpiosRule]

 

 

Over in the Miscellaneous TV forum--Everything Else TV-->Race & Ethnicty on TV

 

 

Quoting myself because I thought the article was more recent--like post finale article; but it was from March 29. So it's still possible it could be renewed. Blech.

 

Sorry y'all. That's what I get for not clicking on the article to see if it's up to date!

[blugirlami21]

My problem with the Angel comparison is that it was a spinoff. Everyone knew that he was leaving Buffy, the show broke them up and had him distance himself. Also different because Angel was not the co-lead on Buffy.

Killing off Abbie and having just Ichabod be the star of the show isn't remotely the same thing.

My uo is I actually don't think that Ichabod is interesting enough to have a show just about him. Neither is Abbie for that matter.

[Crackedmuse]

 

My problem with the Angel comparison is that it was a spinoff. Everyone knew that he was leaving Buffy, the show broke them up and had him distance himself. Also different because Angel was not the co-lead on Buffy.

I'm sure that's true for many, but I'm someone who didn't know any of that.  I saw Angel for the first time on DVD a couple of years after both Angel and Buffy had been cancelled and off the air.  I watched his entire run and maybe a year later started Buffy's DVDs.  So while the shows were interconnected, the enjoyment of one was not dependent upon the other.

 

I use "spin-off" only as an easy descriptor of a character that starts one place and ends up in another.  Angel shared much with the Buffyverse, but in other ways was nothing like it.  And I suspect the same would be true of any solo Crane vehicle.

 

Arrow, The Flash, and Legends of Tomorrow are all connected, but each show has it's on POV, direction and fans, some of whom watch all three, two, or only one.  And undoubtedly new and future fans who have not seen any of them (like Supergirl fans coming from the crossover) who are just now tuning into The Flash.  They have no knowledge Barry Allen started on Arrow and probably don't care.

 

Of course, the connections between characters in the DC universe is not in any way comparable to Abbie/Crane and Sleepy Hollow.  But as Sparkling Beth stated, the comparison with Angel is about making assumptions before something has happened. We have no idea how a show with Crane on his own would be structured.  What mythology carries over, gets discarded, and what will be new.  It could be very similar to the Sleepy Hollow we know, or a huge departure.  We don't even know if there will BE a show.

 

But if there is, the assumption that every viewer will come to it knowing the history I think is false.  There are millions of people who have never heard of Sleepy Hollow, or heard about it and never watched it.  Better Call Saul has many viewers who have never seen Breaking Bad. (Astounding, but true!)  So while fans of Sleepy Hollow make up the largest pool for potential viewers of any Crane spin-off right now, that could change depending on what kind of show it eventually turns out to be.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Crackedmuse