Spoiler Discussion: The apple was poisoned?!

[InsertWordHere]

When Gold died, he was back almost immediately, and we only had to wait four episodes to find out how. OTOH, it took them most of 3A to find Henry, and this journey does seem to bear some resemblance to the Nevengers teamup. I think Gold is there for another reason, but he went rogue during the Save Henry arc too. 

 

I think they will find Hook fairly quickly, but getting out of the Underworld might take some time.

 

Do we know what kind of flashbacks we'll be getting? If there's another timejump, they might flashback to the missing months/weeks or most of the flashbacks could be pre-curse again. At least 3 or 4  flashbacks will probably be going to Hades and crew.

[Hookian]

When Gold died, he was back almost immediately, and we only had to wait four episodes to find out how. OTOH, it took them most of 3A to find Henry, and this journey does seem to bear some resemblance to the Nevengers teamup. I think Gold is there for another reason, but he went rogue during the Save Henry arc too. 

 

I think they will find Hook fairly quickly, but getting out of the Underworld might take some time.

 

Do we know what kind of flashbacks we'll be getting? If there's another timejump, they might flashback to the missing months/weeks or most of the flashbacks could be pre-curse again. At least 3 or 4  flashbacks will probably be going to Hades and crew.

 

I do think this will be like the Save Henry arc absolutely, not as long though. It won't be 9 episodes in the UW before Hades follows them back. It'll probably be 4-5.

 

I guess we'll know when they film in a SB that isn't destroyed that they're back from the UW

Edited November 6, 2015 by Hookian

[orza]

Maybe that's Charons mask not hers. It's probably everybody on the boat to the UW. Save Killian is gonna be an amazing arc, can't wait. It'll probably last half the season and they do have 12 episodes in the next half.

I doubt that Charon shops at the Home Depot. That's a normal respirator that people wear when they are spraying anything they don't want to inhale.

[sharky]

Someone on tumblr suggested that the actors may use those in between takes for scenes that take place indoors when they're using a smoke machine. You can also see in the background that there's a bit of fog behind her.

[OnceUponAJen]

You know this Hades arc sounds very much like the Neverland arc. The gang sets off to save someone in a faraway land. I sincerely doubt that the Nevengers can get out of the UW without Hades' permission, unless they find a loophole. They can't take the Jolly Roger with them this time! And Hades follows them back (we think) just like Pan.

Edited November 6, 2015 by OnceUponAJen

[kili]

I doubt that Charon shops at the Home Depot.

 

I don't know. Late at night, I swear I've seen him walking the aisles. I know there are zombies at Costco. They seem convinced that the food samplers offer brains. Just try to get one of them to move so you can get by.

 

I think Gold is there for another reason

 

His going with the group really surprises me. He went to Neverland to save his grandson and honor Neal. Does he hope that he can retrieve Neal too? Would he sacrifice the rest of the group to do so?

[YaddaYadda]

You know this Hades arc sounds very much like the Neverland arc. The gang sets off to save someone in a faraway land. I sincerely doubt that the Nevengers can get out of the UW without Hades' permission, unless they find a loophole. They can't take the Jolly Roger with them this time! And Hades follows them back (we think) just like Pan.

It sounds like the Camelot arc too. The only thing is it doesn't seem the Camelot people were there willingly, but Arthur wants to rebuild his kingdom in Storybrooke.

 

Once lacks imagination.

[orza]

His going with the group really surprises me. He went to Neverland to save his grandson and honor Neal. Does he hope that he can retrieve Neal too? Would he sacrifice the rest of the group to do so?

I think Gold is going in the hope that he will see Neal again. Belle may be Rumple's True Love but his son was always, and still is, the great all-consuming love of his life that he would do anything for. Nothing and no one is as important to Rumple as his son and no sacrifice is too great.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Once lacks imagination.

Which is tragic considering the show's premise.

[PixiePaws1]

I think Gold is going in the hope that he will see Neal again. Belle may be Rumple's True Love but his son was always, and still is, the great all-consuming love of his life that he would do anything for. Nothing and no one is as important to Rumple as his son and no sacrifice is too great.

I have zero faith whatever in Rumple helping for selfish reasons ( will send him virtual apologies if I am wrong) but if Emma has a way to retrieve Killian from the UW then my money is on Rumple going along with the intention to pull a double cross and get Bae out instead. If MRJ isn't available/interested in returning for a short stint/scene I am sure they can come up with some plot device for the original young Bae to pop up. Edited November 6, 2015 by PixiePaws1

[YaddaYadda]

Also...Emma has a rose in the boat!

 

Where? I don't see it. 

 

Note to self: Go see eye doctor.

[PixiePaws1]

Where? I don't see it.

Note to self: Go see eye doctor.

Nope. .you don't. ..I do!!!! No rose is present. I hate being old and blind :o (((

[YaddaYadda]

Nope. .you don't. ..I do!!!! No rose is present. I hate being old and blind :o (((

No, it's okay...still need to make an appointment!

[MMR]

More Evil Queen flashbacks, cant wait!

 

[LizaD]

 

We know Emma did something to Merlin in those missing six weeks. How bad is it?

I can’t tell you because I don’t know. There’s so many different things that happen, it’s very confusing. I can’t say, but you will find out.

 

I don't know why I laughed at this. Does the guy not know cause the "story" is so confusing and nonsensical that even he doesn't get it? I hope they do that sexy face proud in 5x07.

 

In other news this dangerous quest to get broken Excalibur from Arthur is dumb as shit. Why can't the most powerful wizard ever snap his fingers and get the damn sword himself if it's that crucial? From a non-magical dude that he scolded like a 5 year old a day ago, at that! I know this is just their desperate attempt at trying to give something for everyone to do but why make it so glaringly stupid? Instead of having Hook ask for some details via future seeing abilities, maybe he should've asked why Merlin can't go grab it himself on his way to do whatever with Emma.

[Rumsy4]

From the Merlin interview:

So I would say—and this is just my opinion and I’m kind of biased—that [the story of Merlin's romance is] almost like the ultimate, epic romance.

 

Ooh... I am intrigued. But of course, it is a tragedy. But then, it always seems to be that way with epic romances. 

We know Emma did something to Merlin in those missing six weeks. How bad is it?

I can’t tell you because I don’t know. There’s so many different things that happen, it’s very confusing. I can’t say, but you will find out.

 

How can he not know?!! The filming for 5A is all done. When was this interview recorded? I hope they don't resolve Merlin's non-appearacne in Storybrooke with a 5 minute conversation to explain what happened in off-screenville.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Rumsy4

[orza]

From the Merlin interview:

 

Ooh... I am intrigued. But of course, it is a tragedy. But then, it always seems to be that way with epic romances. 

 

How can he not know?!! The filming for 5A is all done. When was this interview recorded? I hope they don't resolve Merlin's non-appearacne in Storybrooke with a 5 minute conversation to explain what happened in off-screenville.

Because he only got the scripts for the episodes he was in so he doesn't know the rest of the story, plus lots of actors only read the sides with their lines and not the whole script.

[KAOS Agent]

That question is poorly asked though. We know don't know that Emma did anything to Merlin. That's an assumption they want us to make, which means it's probably wrong. So how is he supposed to answer that if the basis of the question is wrong and the real answer would give away the twist they've been hiding?

 

I'm curious how much time is supposed to have passed in Camelot at this point. They've got to be nearing the end of the six weeks right? This week they seek out the spark and the sword and next week it all comes to a head. That's got to mean they've been there over a month. I just don't understand the lack of urgency by anyone other than Hook & Emma. Is it because those two have done such a good job covering Emma's descent into madness? No one is even remotely concerned that Emma isolates herself obsessively making dreamcatchers?

[Stuffy]

More Evil Queen flashbacks, cant wait!

 

I see this and automatically wonder if Regina is going to murder another village. No good can come from Regina visiting villages.

[YaddaYadda]

I think he dude standing in front of the one with long white beard was filming is Steveston (black tooth or whatever his name was).

[Rumsy4]

I see this and automatically wonder if Regina is going to murder another village.

 

That's the same thought that popped into my head. 

That question is poorly asked though. We know don't know that Emma did anything to Merlin. That's an assumption they want us to make, which means it's probably wrong. So how is he supposed to answer that if the basis of the question is wrong and the real answer would give away the twist they've been hiding?

 

Good point! Something bad clearly happened to Merlin, but it may not have anything to do with Emma. 

Edited November 7, 2015 by Rumsy4

[InsertWordHere]

I see this and automatically wonder if Regina is going to murder another village. No good can come from Regina visiting villages.

Same.  Is it Percival's village or a new site of Regina destruction?

[KingOfHearts]

Does it weird anyone else out that Lana is posting this picture of the extras' smiling faces, only to have the scene probably terrorize their characters? I'd find it strange to be excited about that. There's obviously no connection and they're just doing their jobs. I'm just not excited about the prospects of it.

Edited November 7, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

We don't know that the scene Lana is posting about is a EF flashback, especially since they filmed with one of the guys in destroyed Storybrooke. Maybe the Underworld has different lands in it. Maybe this is Regina's past coming back to haunt her.

 

What if Emma and Co have to pass a series of tests to get to where they need to go to find Hook, and that guy Black Tooth is their guide?

Edited November 7, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[InsertWordHere]

We don't know that the scene Lana is posting about is a EF flashback, especially since they filmed with one of the guys in destroyed Storybrooke. Maybe the Underworld has different lands in it. Maybe this is Regina's past coming back to haunt her.

It could be that they flash back to some people she killed and then she meets them in the Underworld. And if this part of the Underworld is Tartarus (and I think that's what it is if Pan, Cora, and the Blind Witch are showing up there), then show could be saying that Regina was right to kill this bad guy. You're right that we don't know the details though. Maybe they are passing through different parts of the UW.

[YaddaYadda]

It could be that they flash back to some people she killed and then she meets them in the Underworld. And if this part of the Underworld is Tartarus (and I think that's what it is if Pan, Cora, and the Blind Witch are showing up there), then show could be saying that Regina was right to kill this bad guy. You're right that we don't know the details though. Maybe they are passing through different parts of the UW.

 

The other thing is, how far is one allowed to go in the Underworld before they're stopped?

 

I mean Regina slaughtered a whole village, so maybe she's stuck there while everyone continues on. Snowing eggnapped Lily, so maybe they get to relive that, even though they regret what they've done. Maybe there are all these stages before you're allowed to go on with the journey.

 

That BTS of JMo in Charon's boat is all kinds of interesting. I mean I know it's a BTS with EW tagged in it. It would be sort of cool if Emma bumps into Jones Sr and she hides in his boat while he takes her to Hook.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I mean Regina slaughtered a whole village, so maybe she's stuck there while everyone continues on. Snowing eggnapped Lily, so maybe they get to relive that, even though they regret what they've done. Maybe there are all these stages before you're allowed to go on with the journey.

I would love to see the characters revisit moments of their lives where they messed up. That would do wonders for their arcs, especially Rumple's and Regina's. If this is the case, we've all been waiting for 5B far too long.

Edited November 7, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[chrisvee]

I have zero faith whatever in Rumple helping for selfish reasons ( will send him virtual apologies if I am wrong) but if Emma has a way to retrieve Killian from the UW then my money is on Rumple going along with the intention to pull a double cross and get Bae out instead. If MRJ isn't available/interested in returning for a short stint/scene I am sure they can come up with some plot device for the original young Bae to pop up.

Neal should be in Elysian Fields by now not in the Underworld.

[PixiePaws1]

The Elysian Fields are in the UW...not sure how that works but they are. It's supposed to be this idyllic paradise where heroes (not that Neal the idiot is a hero in my eyes) dwell. The UW is just where all people go when they die in the Greek/ Roman(which?) mythology. I don't think the concept of a Heaven came in until Christianity popped up. The Heaven then was Olympus and that was the domain of the Gods.

I don't think Neal was an evil soul who needed to burn forever in Tartarus but he was no hero.

I think that is how it was supposed to go.

[YaddaYadda]

I don't think Neal was evil, or a villain. He did what he had to do to survive. He was a coward when it came to his father, an d an idiot. I do not think he shoukd be going to hell for this. Why would an idiot who suffered in his life end up in the same place as a mass murderer like Cora? I'm using her as an example because she's the one who is dead.

One thing though, while I'm not the biggest Zelena fan around, it's too bad she doesn't get to experience Cora first hand.

[KAOS Agent]

I think this show needs to be very, very careful about how they set up who they run into in the Underworld. The concepts of heaven and hell and who deserves to go where can get really murky. Where would you find Ingrid for example? What about Walsh? Or Graham? Neal wasn't a villain, but he was a thief and a liar. Is there a middle ground purgatory kind of place? Does eggnapping get you a stint in hell or does later heroism exempt you from that? Where would one find Hook in this place? He's not a child eating psychopath like the Blind Witch, but he's done some evil deeds. Do they suffer the same fate anyway?

[Rumsy4]

We don't know how much of Greek mythology A&E are bringing into ONCE. They always add twists. So, we can't be sure if the OUAT-UW will have a Tartarus for the damned, the Elysian fields for the worthy souls, and the asphodel gardens for the souls that would eventually be reborn. Is there rebirth in the ONCE-verse? Who knows...

 

From the spoilers we have, the only undead people the Nevengers are meeting seem to be villains. Maybe they do go to Tartarus to rescue Hook. After all, if he died taking the Darkness with him, he most likely won't end up in the Elysian fields. That might explain Scarybrooke, because the souls in Tartarus have a variety of punishments tailored to fit their crimes.  

Edited November 7, 2015 by Rumsy4

[mjgchick]

Hook is probably the only villain who thinks he deserves the Underworld. I hope to see Hook reunite with Cora. I've always wondered if Cora hit that. lol

[orza]

I think this show needs to be very, very careful about how they set up who they run into in the Underworld. The concepts of heaven and hell and who deserves to go where can get really murky. Where would you find Ingrid for example? What about Walsh? Or Graham? Neal wasn't a villain, but he was a thief and a liar. Is there a middle ground purgatory kind of place? Does eggnapping get you a stint in hell or does later heroism exempt you from that? Where would one find Hook in this place? He's not a child eating psychopath like the Blind Witch, but he's done some evil deeds. Do they suffer the same fate anyway?

The Christian concepts of heaven and hell really don't apply here. These are fairy tale characters and they did establish back in season 1, albeit somewhat obliquely, that Fairytale land is a polytheistic society in which religion doesn't play much of a role in daily life. The upcoming story arc is their take on Greek mythology,. It is not necessary to put a contemporary Christian spin on it.

Edited November 7, 2015 by orza

[InsertWordHere]

I honestly think they're just going to keep things simple and have the villains they meet all be trapped in Tartarus. Unless they just start there in ep 100 and then meet other people along the way in the more generally populated Underworld. 

[Dianthus]

#Don'tSaveRegina

It's not like she appreciates it anyway. Although EQ Regina can be campy good fun when she's not, you know, destroying peoples' lives.

 

ITA, Hook's the only ex-villain on here who feels like he deserves any sort of punishment.

 

Hook actually tried to hit on Cora at one point (IIRC), but she turned him down. Gotta hand it to her (I guess), she was an evil bitch, but she knew what she wanted and wasn't easily distracted.

[KingOfHearts]

 

 

I don't think Neal was evil, or a villain. He did what he had to do to survive. He was a coward when it came to his father, an d an idiot. I do not think he shoukd be going to hell for this. Why would an idiot who suffered in his life end up in the same place as a mass murderer like Cora? I'm using her as an example because she's the one who is dead.

Here's my theory on the Underworld. It's not heaven or hell - it's just a holding place for souls that were forced to leave their bodies. This would mean magic itself doesn't have control over life or death. Cora, Pan and Neal were "killed" using magic. Heart ripping doesn't count because you are physically crushing their heart. Even though Pan was stabbed with the dagger, he disappeared before we could see a body. I can't explain the Blind Witch, however. 

 

If Once tried to tackle the actual afterlife, I'd probably start ripping my hair out. This show is already so insulting to morality already. We don't need them trampling on religion.

Edited November 7, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

I honestly think they're just going to keep things simple and have the villains they meet all be trapped in Tartarus. 

 

That seems the most likely explanation. Not sure how Pan ends up as Pan in Tartarus (other than to bring Robbie Kay back--not complaining! haha). 

Unless they just start there in ep 100 and then meet other people along the way in the more generally populated Underworld.

 

That could be very interesting depending on how they play it. As long as those people are not used to prop up the villains. For example, I don't want to see Milah apologizing to Rumple, or Graham having a heart-to-heart with Regina.  

Edited November 7, 2015 by Rumsy4

[KAOS Agent]

Actually, Milah already apologized to Rumpel and then he murdered her, so...

 

I see Robbie Kay is already done filming, so it seems like Pan is a very, very quick stop on memory lane for our intrepid Underworld search party. 

[YaddaYadda]

One thing though, this is all assuming Hook died, which I'm not sure he did. Maybe he's one of Hades' Charon? Or in his employ somehow? It wouldn't be the first time for Hook to be forced to work for someone, he's done it for Pan.

it must suck for him though to be in a post apocalypse Storybrooke, walking past Emma's charred bug, and the library's broken tower. Whatever he did that got him sent to the UW, he probably did for Emma and the town. As far as rewards go for a good deed, this one blows.

Emma sacrifices herself, and reaps suffering for it. Hook sacrifices himself, and gets to live through something he was trying to avoid.

Great sacrifice has its own reward, my hide!

[KingOfHearts]

 

I see Robbie Kay is already done filming, so it seems like Pan is a very, very quick stop on memory lane for our intrepid Underworld search party.

Dang. I don't really like how all these big name villains are coming and going within the span of one episode. They're probably much more interesting than anything else coming in 5B.

[retrograde]

Snowing, Regina, Cora, and the Dwarves filmed FTL scene/s today.

 

So I guess there's no chance they're giving up on EF flashbacks in 5B. I really wish they would.

 

ETA: Unless this is all part of the underworld. I didn't think of that. 

Edited November 7, 2015 by retrograde

[KAOS Agent]

I suspect that if they are going to have the characters haunted by their past, we're going to get flashbacks that way. The dwarves didn't go with everyone else to the Underworld, so that says flashback to me. Emma would be pretty immune from that type of storytelling since we've seen her with any fairytale characters she'd be haunted by, so if they stay in the Underworld for a bit, her story will be Hook focused. Maybe the group splits up?

[Serena]

Yeah, but Snow and Cora never met when Snow was an adult, right? Because she was sent to Wonderland right before Regina's wedding. That screams Underworld to me.

[Rumsy4]

Yeah, but Snow and Cora never met when Snow was an adult, right? Because she was sent to Wonderland right before Regina's wedding. That screams Underworld to me.

But she visited Regina at one point. They could easily squeeze-in a meeting with Snowing and the dwarfs. Anything is possible in retcon land. :-p

[Mari]

They met in Storybrooke after Cora and Hook came there.  If they're going the dream sequence/flashback or the Underworld is what you make it route, it wouldn't have to be in a logical setting.

 

And Snow feels very guilty about Cora and Regina.

[YaddaYadda]

Snow could've met Cora anytime between the time Regina became Queen, before Snow became bandit!Snow.

[KingOfHearts]

Alright... what if the undead characters are merely illusions to mess with the mains? Not that Hades wants to play with them, but it might be how Underworld rolls.

Edited November 7, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[kili]

And Snow feels very guilty about Cora and Regina.

if they make Snow apologize to Cora, I will not be pleased.

[chrisvee]

The Elysian Fields are in the UW...not sure how that works but they are. It's supposed to be this idyllic paradise where heroes (not that Neal the idiot is a hero in my eyes) dwell. The UW is just where all people go when they die in the Greek/ Roman(which?) mythology. I don't think the concept of a Heaven came in until Christianity popped up. The Heaven then was Olympus and that was the domain of the Gods.

I don't think Neal was an evil soul who needed to burn forever in Tartarus but he was no hero.

I think that is how it was supposed to go.

This will very much depend on how Once chooses to depict their Underworld -- not all of the Underworld is necessarily ruled by Hades. We could get that shadowy half life where all souls wander through a gray existence or something more like Hesiod, Homer, Pindar, where there is judgment and souls are assigned either to continue on in Hades' realm or go to punishment in Tartarus -- or if they are related to gods or are heroes, go to the Elysian Fields and Isle of the Blessed outside of Hades' realm.

I think Once will go with the latter given their hero/villain obsession and agree with those saying we might just get Tartarus but then the question is..where will Killian be? So do they need to pass through villains to get to him? Where does Hercules come into play? Will he be a hero? It would stink if Killian sacrificed himself to rid Emma and the world of darkness and all he gets is a trip to Tartarus. Maybe Killian is a fugitive in Hades, refusing to go to his assigned fate...knowing Emma will come for him...

Edited November 7, 2015 by chrisvee