Spoiler Discussion: The apple was poisoned?!

[YaddaYadda]

Based on this pic of young Arthur and Gwen, I don't think they're supposed to have that much of an age difference.

No, and they're sort of cute.  Are we going down the road of first love vs true love? Because we've sort of been there with that triangle that didn't really triangle.

 

So Hook's waistcoat is the same color as Emma's signature Savior jacket.  That cannot be a coincidence.

[Curio]

Gosh, Emma's hair looks so ethereal. #HairGoals

 

I'm still standing by dream sequence theory. But if it's not, then I don't necessarily think it's a true wedding scenario. At best, I could see Dark One Emma freaking out over her "evil" role and how it's going to change everything, and to prove to her that nothing could change his love for her, Hook and Emma have an intimate date where they basically promise each other that neither one will stop loving the other. Not a great example, but kind of like the promise ring before the real engagement ring scenario.

 

Another theory is that this is a real life scene, but it's a vision of the future. Merlin or someone could be taunting Emma by showing her her potential future in a crystal ball, just to twist the knife before the emotional 5.05 comes.

[patchwork]

This show does know how to drag me back in, CS Princess Bride parallels almost make me forget how annoyed the clip made me. 

 

Look at my babies! Just look at them!

[HoodlumSheep]

They are the most precious cinnamon rolls ever! Everything is just so pretty!!! The quilted pattern on hook's new coat looked larger than the pattern on his prince charles outfit. love it when Hook wears red. JMo looks stunning!

I don't care if it's a dream, vision, wedding (I highly doubt it), non-wedding, or a photo-shoot for a romance novel. I'll take it.

[Selina K]

I finally watched the opening reaction scene and I think it was good that I read everyone's reactions here first.  It wasn't as bad as I was expecting.  Snow chastised Regina, I thought Regina actually looked somewhat distraught, and Hook was fantastic.  Clearly the 'lower my expectations' approach worked for that clip.

 

I will have to keep that in mind when we see however these CS pics play out in the episode because damn, my expectations are flying.  It will be interesting to see how everything is framed and lit in post production because Jen looks positively ethereal just in the pics we've seen.  The gown and cape are truly stunning as well  - what a great juxtaposition against the eventual Dark Swan look (which still just makes me think Lillith from Cheers / Frasier) she will have!

[OnceUponAJen]

Hmmm....I'm going to say that this vision is a possible future for CS. I don't think I buy into it being "real" simply because of Emma's elaborate white dress. I mean, it looks like a wedding dress to me. It could also just be a princess dress, but the white suggests something special. Was Snow wearing a white dress in the big TLK with Charming in S1?

[Serena]

Yes, Snow was wearing a white dress in the pilot.

I wouldn't call the dress Emma is wearing actually elaborate? Her Charming dream dress the red dress from the S3 finale were more "grand". The dress seems relatively simple, it just looks really big because the cape is very, very long. 

This *could* be a dream, but it being something that happens for real to contrast with the Dark Swan coming in the future would be sooo much more cruel and heartbreaking, so... I'm betting on that.

Are they filming in SB for this episode? It seems like some episodes have a "present Camelot/future Storybrooke" format, while others have a "present Camelot/past Camelot" format. This one seems to be the latter, so we may not see Dark Swan?

[Curio]

It's kind of hilarious how everyone is freaking out over some blurry behind the scenes photos of Emma and Hook on a horse together for a scene that won't even air until October, and then there's crickets when Regina and Robin actually shared a horse in the Season 4 finale. Don't ever change, fandom.

[YaddaYadda]

So likely in the minority, but I think this is very real.  I don't think it's a fantasy, I doubt it's a dream.  I just think Emma and Hook will want to be as happy as they possibly can before things take on a very serious tone with Emma going dark or completely dark or whatever.  Emma talked about taking next steps with Hook and she would not know what that's like because he had died in the AU.  And yes, she totally chickened out and didn't tell him she loved him when she was supposed to, but this woman is living on borrowed time right now.

 

Emma is living on borrowed time.  The fact is, none of them know what is going to happen to her and there are tons of scenarios where she can just basically die. They can't hoover the darkness out of her without someone else having to take it onto them.  If someone gets a hold of the dagger and stabs her, she dies.  If she lets the darkness consume her for whatever reason, then they still lose her.  

 

I think it comes down to them not knowing what the real outcome of this will be for Emma.  There are no guarantees that she will survive this.  Maybe she decides to just embrace life to the fullest and live and have what she wants for a change.  

 

This isn't even about moments anymore or about trying to live life between catastrophes.  This is about her living her life the way she wants to live it and not just exist in it.

 

She's not even the Savior anymore.  She doesn't have that burden of sheriffing and running around trying to get rid of monsters and having her life be generally interrupted.

 

Emma's life has been a clusterfuck of people wanting her to be something.  Her parents wanted her to be a hero and Rumple made her the clause in his Dark Curse and she's the Savior. Even when she decided that Storybrooke was her home at the end of season 3, she still didn't allow herself to have everything she wanted.  She was scared of this, worried about that, uncomfortable because of whatever, nearly put the breaks on her relationship with Hook.  She's with the one person who doesn't necessarily slap that Savior label on her.

 

Is it completely weird that this feels like Emma is actually taking charge of her life and getting what wants out of it before it's too late?  

Edited August 18, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Curio]

Is it completely weird that this feels like Emma is actually taking charge of her life and getting what wants out of it before it's too late?  

 

Yeah, it's sad that our immediate reaction to Emma looking happy is "Oh, it must be a dream sequence." But sadly, on this show, that's kind of what I expect. I'll definitely be excited if this is real Emma taking happiness into her own hands and doing what she wants, but I'm lowering my expectations. Who knows though, maybe this is legit and it's a scene of Hook and Emma sneaking away for some alone time after the Camelot ball. Minus the large cloak, I could see Emma wearing a dress like that to a fancy event.

[YaddaYadda]

Who knows though, maybe this is legit and it's a scene of Hook and Emma sneaking away for some alone time after the Camelot ball. Minus the large cloak, I could see Emma wearing a dress like that to a fancy event.

 

The ball is in episode 2, so I don't know about that.

 

Let's talk fashion for a second.  Camelot style dresses don't have those hoops under the skirts like they do in the EF.  I guess it's in keeping with English fashion back when Arthur should/might/could/wouId have lived, flowy "A" line type dresses.  I'm not sure we'll see massive princess ball gowns during the ball.

[Curio]

The ball is in episode 2, so I don't know about that.

 

At the snail's pace this show goes, it's possible. Three episodes can go by and everyone is still wearing the same clothes.

[YaddaYadda]

At the snail's pace this show goes, it's possible. Three episodes can go by and everyone is still wearing the same clothes.

But they're not!

 

I just remembered something about a plum vest that Colin was wearing for episode 2 in a fan pic taken by the studio.

 

Ok, I really need to get back to real life. (or not, I don't know...)

[RadioGirl27]

It doesn't matter if it's a real moment between Hook and Emma, or a dream/vision/hallucination, I'm sure of one thing, between the Lancelot/Guinevere flashback and episode 5 being "heartbreaking", this is going to end really bad for Hook and Emma.

[pezgirl7]

I love coming on here in the morning and seeing all the glorious new spoilers! As much as I want the CS scene to be real, I'm thinking it's either someone tempting Hook, or perhaps Emma is in some kind of dream land. It's like that trope when someone is in a coma, and they are imagining this great life, but their friends and family in the real world really need them to wake up. The sleeping person has to fight through and decide to go back to their crappier life. I think Buffy was in some kind of funk like that, where she was imagining her mom still alive, and Willow eventually snapped her out of it because they needed her to defeat the big bad.

Edited August 18, 2015 by pezgirl7

[LizaD]

I don't think it's a wedding. I think they're just taking the whole white swan/black swan, and whatever shades of grey swan thing a little too literally. Maybe Merlin tricks them into thinking she's cured and bam, it's the opposite.

 

 

"present Camelot/future Storybrooke" format, while others have a "present Camelot/past Camelot" format. This one seems to be the latter, so we may not see Dark Swan?

 

I think it's distant past Camelot/nearer past Camelot with the cast/present Dark Swan Storybrooke. You know like how they did in Lost with the flash sideways? Except it was revealed that the flash sideways was a flash forward? I think their twist this season is that what looks like flash forwards or sideways is actually the present.

 

Which means Emma is going to turn dark pretty easily and quickly. Short of Henry dying I don't see her doing it organically, which means Merlin tricked her and/or the whole crew. Or with Robert saying that Rumple's heart isn't the same thing as Gold's heart and that the darkness was taking over his heart, I was thinking that maybe Emma gives up her heart to protect it. So Dark Swan is dark cause it's a heartless Swan and they think that's a better option than it tainting Emma's heart while they find a way to beat it.

[daxx]

If they did that, having Killian say it's his job to protect her heart is foreshadowing. Pan had two hearts in his chest, could Emma stick hers in Killian's chest to protect it?

[scenicbyway]

So many great pictures!  The title of the episode is "Broken Kingdom" though, so even though it looks like CS is happy, I suspect by the end of the episode, they may not be.  I'm in the camp of dream/fantasy sequence.  We know that a happy ending/wedding is what Hook would want and probably even Emma, but Adam and Eddy's spoiler of "love is a dangerous weapon" and the beauty and the beast magic rose thing really gives me pause.  I'm not sure they are on their way or just coming from their wedding, since they seem to be alone.  I don't think either one would get married without at least Henry there.  I do like they idea of two weddings or even an enchanted forest engagement and a Storybrooke wedding.

[YaddaYadda]

Kid Arthur and brother Kay

Still on this CS high, but this also gives me life.

 

So I guess Arthur's sort of origin story will remain the same except for knowing Guinevere.  I'm a complete sucker for this.

[mjgchick]

Kid Arthur looks like he hustles at the playgrounds during lunch hour.

[Selina K]

Thinking on this some more and being a ballet nerd from way back ...

 

If they're juxtaposing Emma and Killian against Arthur and Guinevere, Swan Lake is also a a story where unfaithfulness is the catalyst for evil to 'win' essentially.  The prince falls in love with the 'good' White Swan Odette who has been cursed by the Evil Magician to remain in a swan form during the day but can be corporeal at night.  At a ball at the castle in order to find the prince a bride, the Evil Magician tricks the prince into 'dancing' with his own daughter, Odile, who mimics the form of Odette save she is dressed as a Black Swan rather than a white one.  The prince, thinking Odile is Odette, declares his love for her and proposes.  Odette sees the prince with Odile and flees because of his betrayal, not knowing he has been set up himself.  Versions vary after that, but basically it usually involves Odette dying, either by drowning or the prince accidentally shoots her and then the prince kills himself in grief as well.

 

Ballets are happy!

 

Anyway, between the Arthur story and the swan parallels, I can't see how they're not setting Killian up to seemingly or actually betray Emma and that pushes her over the edge.  After having a perfect romantic day where they either consummate the relationship or get married or however they define the relationship, it would make the betrayal that much more heartbreaking.  Since I cannot see how Killian would do this willingly, I have to assume a spell or a glamour of some kind is involved which would resurrect all the ickiness of Zarian and Robin.  I'll hope I'm wrong, but this just seems forgone to me.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Selina K

[Curio]

Selina K, you're officially in time out for putting that theory out into the open. If the writers pull what they did with Robin and Zarian to Hook, I am done with this show. 

[mjgchick]

That was rude as hell Selina K. Quick someone edit it out of the internet.

[patchwork]

Given Merlin's history of disguising someone so they can get their leg over a Odette/Odile situation wouldn't surprise me.   

[KingOfHearts]

I'm 90% sure we're getting Swan Lake parallels this arc.

Edited August 18, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Selina K]

I'm hanging my head in shame.  I'll go and sit on the naughty step.  Can I blame TS:TW?  I could be 100% wrong.  I protested August being Pinocchio until it was actually revealed on screen.  I'm not usually very good at prognosticating.  I'll go back to happily squeeing over the lovely photos.

 

Damn this show.  Track record shows there is no way we would get something beautiful and happy without it being ruined in the last five minutes of the episode.

[Souris]

I think you're onto something, Selina K, but I hope to God it doesn't go as far as another rapey situation. Because enough already! FFS. If they're doing this, I hope that 1) Hook is hoodwinked and 2) they make it clear to the audience that Hook is hoodwinked. But we know it will make Twitter explode, "things are not what they seem" and "love is a dangerous weapon." Can you imagine the wailing and renting of garments among CS fans if they make it look like Hook has actually betrayed Emma? And how gloaty SQers will be? Those would not be good times.

[legaleagle53]

I'm hanging my head in shame.  I'll go and sit on the naughty step.  Can I blame TS:TW?  I could be 100% wrong.  I protested August being Pinocchio until it was actually revealed on screen.  I'm not usually very good at prognosticating.  I'll go back to happily squeeing over the lovely photos.

 

Damn this show.  Track record shows there is no way we would get something beautiful and happy without it being ruined in the last five minutes of the episode.

 

You have a point there, Selina.  The writers are why we can never have nice things!

[YaddaYadda]

No offense, but I think you're wrong.  I don't think the writers are going to try and pull a fast one.  I just don't see it.

[RadioGirl27]

I think we have a winner with Selina's theory. I just hope that, if they go this route, which I think they will, they would make it clear that Hook is betraying Emma unwillingly. They are already saying that "things are not what they seem", so maybe they are already preparing the ground for when they have to justify Hook's actions. But I don't trust them.

Anyway, the SQ shippers and Hook haters would love it.

Edited August 18, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[YaddaYadda]

I really have to ask.  Why does this always have to go back to SQ? Why can't people just enjoy without thinking about what another faction of fandom is thinking? 

 

So CS have something that looks super romantic in a beautiful setting.  They're all dressed up and yes, we don't know what this is about, but why does it have to be about SQ?  Makes zero sense to me.

 

[/rant]

[Curio]

Wouldn't it be neat if we were all wrong and the real reason Emma goes dark is because she feels betrayed by Regina when she finally realizes that this "friend" she sacrificed herself for in the Season 4 finale has actually been keeping Graham's murder a secret from her? No? Too much continuity that actually makes sense? Do we need more retcon and contrived drama in there?

[Selina K]

No offense, but I think you're wrong.  I don't think the writers are going to try and pull a fast one.  I just don't see it.

 

None taken, I hope I am wrong!  I'm assuming some set up on Camelot / Swan Lake themes, but goodness knows there are plenty of instances of set ups with no follow through in this show.  If they are even setting it up, which could totally be in my head!

[FierceAfroChick]

Coming out of lurkdom to say I don’t think DarkEmma would be all up in Hook’s grill -- grabbing his collar like she wants some sugah -- if he’d betrayed her previously.  I’m going to predict that the bad thing happening in 4.5 is either Rumpel dying, Emma murdering a beloved character or some horrible angst with Snowing.

 

I stopped watching this show during the Zelena arc because I got tired of everything being about Regina and Rumpel.  But with all these spoilers and curiosity about DarkEmma, I think I might have to marathon 3B so I can watch season 4. (Will avoid the Frozen arc because the snippet of Anna I got turned me totally off.  Way too annoying.)

[Curio]

Coming out of lurkdom to say I don’t think DarkEmma would be all up in Hook’s grill -- grabbing his collar like she wants some sugah -- if he’d betrayed her previously.

Exactly. Whatever happens to Emma in Camelot to make her turn from White/Grey Swan to black jacket Dark Swan isn't related to Hook. Now, there's still time for the writers to throw in a Swan Lake kind of betrayal by the end of 4A, but none of the spoilers we've gotten so far point towards a Hook betrayal.

 

I stopped watching this show during the Zelena arc because I got tired of everything being about Regina and Rumpel. But with all these spoilers and curiosity about DarkEmma, I think I might have to marathon 3B so I can watch season 4. (Will avoid the Frozen arc because the snippet of Anna I got turned me totally off. Way too annoying.)

If you got tired of everything being about Regina and Rumple, a fair warning: you might want to avoid 4B like the plague. Also, this is just my opinion, but the Frozen arc was surprisingly okay, and Anna wasn't in a ton of scenes and the actress got much better as time went on.

[FierceAfroChick]

If you got tired of everything being about Regina and Rumple, a fair warning: you might want to avoid 4B like the plague. Also, this is just my opinion, but the Frozen arc was surprisingly okay, and Anna wasn't in a ton of scenes and the actress got much better as time went on.

 

Then I'll be sure to wait for season 4 to upload to Netflix...much easier to fast forward than Hulu.  I know I should watch the show as a whole, but I can't get past my frustration with certain characters.  I'll watch everything Snowing, Captain Swan and townie/newbie-related.

 

So I'm guessing once Emma's whereabouts are discovered, everyone treks back to the EF or Camelot (or wherever the ink monster took her off to) via magic bean or portal to find her. 

[Selina K]

Coming out of lurkdom to say I don’t think DarkEmma would be all up in Hook’s grill -- grabbing his collar like she wants some sugah -- if he’d betrayed her previously.  I’m going to predict that the bad thing happening in 4.5 is either Rumpel dying, Emma murdering a beloved character or some horrible angst with Snowing.

 

Excellent point!  I guess it could depend on how that scene plays out, she could be mocking him.  But that's a good dis-proof of my theory!  So, nothing to see here.

[Souris]

Or she's since discovered that he didn't really betray her, but oops, you can't put the stopper back in the Dark One bottle. Or she's just messing with him.

[YaddaYadda]

So I'm guessing once Emma's whereabouts are discovered, everyone treks back to the EF or Camelot (or wherever the ink monster took her off to) via magic bean or portal to find her.

 

Magical twister from what we gather.  How they figure out where Emma is is a whole other ball game.  But they find her during episode 1.

 

 

 

Now, there's still time for the writers to throw in a Swan Lake kind of betrayal by the end of 4A, but none of the spoilers we've gotten so far point towards a Hook betrayal.

 

There's 10 episodes in the first half though if we're to believe the new writer, something heart breaking is set to happen in episode 5.  It doesn't mean it's Emma related since there's a whole bunch of characters.

 

I'm really wondering if this isn't whole season arc with Camelot.  

 

Coming out of lurkdom to say I don’t think DarkEmma would be all up in Hook’s grill -- grabbing his collar like she wants some sugah -- if he’d betrayed her previously.

Thank you!

Edited August 18, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[ABitOFluff]

Coming out of lurkdom to say I don’t think DarkEmma would be all up in Hook’s grill -- grabbing his collar like she wants some sugah -- if he’d betrayed her previously.  I’m going to predict that the bad thing happening in 4.5 is either Rumpel dying, Emma murdering a beloved character or some horrible angst with Snowing.

These are my thoughts as well. If anything, this idyllic moment together might explain Hook's somewhat pained (well, pain with a bit of lust) look when they're standing next to the Bug in Storybrook. Everything was too perfect to last. It occurred to me, with all the iterations of Camelot, I wonder if any clues lie in the Broadway musical.

 

Don't let it be forgot

That once there was a spot

For one brief shining moment that was known

As Camelot.

 

The angst could also have something to do with Henry. Who knows?

[mjgchick]

I always assumed that scene where HeelEmma (I'm calling her that from now on because I'm in a pro wrestling mood.) is getting close to Hook was her teasing him. Or her trying bc to get him on her side. But I too don't think he betrays her. It'll probably be her parents who gets gas light or something.

[Rumsy4]

Hook's new coat has a nice design, but it should have been taken in a little. It fits rather loosely.

The tweet about the episode pitch for the half-season finale sounds like a big angst warning. I thought of some possibilities: Someone is dying (Rumple), CS breakup (nope), Emma choses to remain the Dark One, Hook seemingly dies, Regina gets a hangnail.

[KAOS Agent]

Or Emma dies. Strong possibility. 

[Shanna Marie]

I spent all day traveling, got to my hotel, and logged into the WiFi while I ate a late lunch, and I was rewarded with pretty pictures of pretty people. Yay! I'm too dead tired to say anything beyond that (got up at 4 a.m., am now two time zones behind. It's been a long day). But sigh, romantic, flowy white dress. And a horse.

[Rumsy4]

I thought of that, but isn't that too much like the 4B finale if they repeated the Emma dies/disappears theme?

[Camera One]

4B ending, Good Emma "dies", Regina "dies", Hook "dies", Rumple "dies", and in the previous episode, Snow hits her head on a rock.  I think they might need to repeat on the people who "die".

Edited August 18, 2015 by Camera One

[Souris]

I saw an interesting theory on Twitter that Snow could pay a heavy price to save Emma. Maybe die or "die" or just get hurt. The mother/daughter angle would fit with Brave. They've certainly been needing to work on the Snow/Emma relationship, and Ginny did do the voiceover about not losing her daughter in the teaser. And Snow was the one who effed up most with that stupid darkness transferrence in the first place. I could see Snow maybe stepping in front of Emma trying to hurt someone to keep her heart from darkening, just like Charming did for her when she tried to shoot Regina with the arrow & he took the arrow instead. Emma could be so horrified she hurt her mother that Light Swan rises up and destroys the Dark One.

 

It could be tears of joy that the writer had. (Who am I?)

[Camera One]

I wouldn't be surprised if Snowing will be the ones going about saving Emma the "wrong" way and they get shamed for what they do.  Josh has said they go to extreme measures.  Since what else is new.  And then Regina and/or Hook will save Emma the right way while Snowing can stand in the background acting guilty for all of 5B.

[RadioGirl27]

The tweet about the episode pitch for the half-season finale sounds like a big angst warning. I thought of some possibilities: Someone is dying (Rumple), CS breakup (nope), Emma choses to remain the Dark One, Hook seemingly dies, Regina gets a hangnail.

I think they have hired that new writer just to tease the fans on twitter.

Someone can cry of sadness but also of happiness. I think the level of angst would depends on how long they want to drag the Dark Swan nonsense.

[YaddaYadda]

I wouldn't be surprised if Snowing will be the ones going about saving Emma the "wrong" way and they get shamed for what they do.  Josh has said they go to extreme measures.

 

Josh also keeps saying that this is David at his most heroic. I'm expecting mistakes to be made, but I'm going for Merlin for the main fuck up.  So Merlin for the win!

 

Also, Merlin, Hook almost managed to do away with the Dark One when you couldn't and he almost did it without stabbing him with the dagger.