Spoiler Discussion: The apple was poisoned?!

[retrograde]

I don't know that I have the answers, but I actually think the race and casting discussion is a good one to have, and I'm glad people are talking about it (so long as it doesn't turn into a flame war). 

[Dianthus]

retrograde, on 07 Apr 2015 - 8:13 PM, said:

I don't know that I have the answers, but I actually think the race and casting discussion is a good one to have, and I'm glad people are talking about it (so long as it doesn't turn into a flame war). 

I agree it's a necessary discussion. It often crops up with Joss Whedon's work as well. It's tricky, tho'. Emotions run high, and that's understandable.

Still, I don't think it was an intentional show of disrespect or anything. It's not like casting Christian Bale as Moses. 

ETA: not that I think that was either, necessarily, but it was a part with a much higher profile. You'd think, with what progress we've made, that sort of thing would've gone out with Chuck Heston.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Dianthus

[Rumsy4]

Lana is not latina (from South America), but she's certainly a PoC of hispanic descent. Even though Regina's race has not been explicitly mentioned, her EF family all seem PoC/hispanic.

I personally think it's a shame that Lily was whitewashed, especially in a show where there's not much racial diversity among the main cast. I know it may seem tiring to read debates about race considerations in casting, but without it, the status quo is not going to change.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Rumsy4

[retrograde]

Yeah, I don't think it really matters much whether the character's race has been mentioned on the show. A&E probably didn't intend to cast a PoC to play young Lily... but they did, and the argument is that they then have a moral obligation to follow through on that. It's more about lack of representation and opportunities for PoC actors than about how or whether it affects the narrative. 

 

This is a slightly weird situation, though, where they created the character to be Mal's daughter (unless they didn't think of that until later), and I assume they cast the adult Lily with that in mind. (Though they probably could have found someone who ticked both boxes if they'd tried, and I don't think they did). 

 

It will be interesting to see who the father is, anyway.

[Souris]

Yeah, I don't think it really matters much whether the character's race has been mentioned on the show. A&E probably didn't intend to cast a PoC to play young Lily... but they did, and the argument is that they then have a moral obligation to follow through on that.

 

They cast her to be a mini-Regina for 4x05 because it was a SQ ep and Emma's relationship with Lily was supposed to parallel hers with Regina, and they're just that ham-fisted. They didn't care about long-term implications, the same as always. They should have carried that through with the actress cast for adult Lily.

[RadioGirl27]

They cast her to be a mini-Regina for 4x05 because it was a SQ ep and Emma's relationship with Lily was supposed to parallel hers with Regina, and they're just that ham-fisted. They didn't care about long-term implications, the same as always. They should have carried that through with the actress cast for adult Lily.

This. They even casted an actress that looked like Lana to play young Lily. If they had intended since the beginning to make Lily Mal's daughter, they would have chosen anothet actress.

Edited April 8, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[FurryFury]

If they had intended since the beginning to make Lily Mal's daughter, they would have chosen anothet actress.

 

Yeah, pretty much. But personally, I think it's OK for them to rectify this mistake by casting Bruckner instead of a Latina actress because it would make no sense for Mal to have a daughter who doesn't look like her. Maybe they just thought that young Lily looked white enough and didn't realize the implications of the new casting.

[Rumsy4]

Lily could have a PoC as a father and thus have her as a mixed-race half-dragon child. :-p

However, I doubt we'll find out who her father is this season, if ever. It's not relevant to the story as of now.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Rumsy4

[HoodlumSheep]

I think it's a bit of a shame that they didn't cast someone to really match young Lily.

Didn't the actress have to dye her hair? I'm surprised that they didn't try to match it up more with young Lily's hair color.

[sharky]

I actually don't like the argument that they should have cast a Latina or Hispanic actress as an adult Lily based on the actress who played young Lily. To me, it's saying that since the young Lily was a Latina actress then she has to be a Latina character. Just because the actress has a Hispanic name or background doesn't mean she can only play characters with that same ethnicity. It reminds me of the complaints some people had about Repunzel being played by an African-American actress. Maybe A&E, whether due to creativity or just laziness, don't want to be confined by "This character has always had this look or must always have this look." Maybe the best actresses were hired to play both the young and older Lily, regardless of background. They look similar, at least they do based on our spoiler pics, so why not? Of course, this then gets into the debate on the difference between Latina or Hispanic and race vs. ethnicity and all that. Oh boy. Where to begin with that?

 

Also, this isn't some ret-con between young Lily and old. The writers set the entire story out at the beginning of their writing process for the year and don't do the half seasons separately -- at least that's what I'm assuming. So they knew when they introduced Lily in 4x05 that she would be showing up as Mal's daughter at the end of the season.

 

That being said, I do feel the same frustration with A&E toying with us. They introduced Lily in an episode about Regina and Emma, and now they're bringing her back into the fold as Mal's daughter. It seems like a blatant and insincere misdirect. I don't mind the two actresses they've chosen, but then maybe don't put the young Lily flashback in an episode focused on Regina and Emma. Maybe that's where all this comes from. If young Lily wasn't introduced in an episode about Regina and Emma, would we still feel as passionate about young Lily being played by a Latina actress or would it be easier for us to reconcile the two different actresses?

Edited April 8, 2015 by sharky

[YaddaYadda]

I don't care about either actresses or their background.  I care that A&E gave Mal a BS baby though and that I'm basically just stuck with that now.  

[FurryFury]

Lily could have a PoC as a father and thus have her as a mixed-race half-dragon child. :-p

 

Does she even have a father? I wasn't sure she does (Yeah, I still haven't seen the latest ep - way too much work plus I'm binging Glee)

 

It reminds me of the complaints some people had about Repunzel being played by an African-American actress.

 

I think at least some of the people who complained about Rapunzel were just pissed that she was the ONLY princess on the show who is so radically different from their Disney counterpart. I mean, Snow, Aurora, Ariel, Belle, Cinderella, Mulan all look the part and have at least something in common with their counterparts. If Rapunzel were called by a different name, I'm not sure people would even realize that's who she was supposed to be. And personally, while I don't care about race change, I do understand people's desire to see a character they love recreated in live action with a similar look, it's quite understandable. Especially when the version that we got eventually sucked ass so much.

Edited April 8, 2015 by FurryFury

[Mitch]

She mentioned "tapas" in 3x17, but that's all I can remember. Honestly I am so tired of seeing people constantly pulling the race card, especially in a fictional TV show where actors/actresses can't always be a totally accurate representation of what people want to see. 

 

We'll get a 5 minute scene of Marian and the Sheriff of Nottingham in the beginning. Rest of the show goes to Zelena and Rumple. There sure is a lot of story to cover in this episode when you think about it.

Your kidding me..."Tapas," makes somoene Spanish...(which is different then someone coming from Mexico but...) Regina is into food and has mentioned various different dishes over the years. Plus, could you call someone from their wacked out world "Latina,"...I mean, it seems a racially mixed lot over there, all coming from the same place which I am okay with.

 

Can't wait to see Zelena hopefully off boring Marian, though maybe real Marion was more interesting then Faux Marian?

Edited April 8, 2015 by Mitch

[Mathius]

Also, this isn't some ret-con between young Lily and old. The writers set the entire story out at the beginning of their writing process for the year and don't do the half seasons separately -- at least that's what I'm assuming. So they knew when they introduced Lily in 4x05 that she would be showing up as Mal's daughter at the end of the season.

This is true. 4x05 even began production and had its title revealed at the exact same time it was announced that KBVS was returning as Maleficent for a major arc in 4B.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Mathius

[RadioGirl27]

From TVLine:

 

Question: If Once Upon a Time’s Cruella and Ursula fell through the portal at the same time as Maleficent’s baby, why didn’t they take care of her? Will we see what happened to them right after they went through? —Larry
Ausiello: Those questions — as well as the matter of Lily proceeding to age a couple decades while Cruella and Ursula didn’t — will be answered at the beginning of the winningly titled April 19 episode, “Sympathy for the De Vil.”

[KingOfHearts]

Sounds like we'll be seeing more of Cruella's chronicles in the LWM than her actual origin story. That would be truer to what it's based off of, but A&E have made it clear they don't care about her likeness to the source material.

[Souris]

Sean Maguire just tweeted about S4 being a wrap now. So he must have been involved in whatever they were shooting yesterday and today. Most of the rest of the cast apparently wrapped Friday.

[SiobhanJW]

Sean Maguire just tweeted about S4 being a wrap now. So he must have been involved in whatever they were shooting yesterday and today. Most of the rest of the cast apparently wrapped Friday.

Yeah from his interview the other day about having Easter dinner with Colin and Jen I had a feeling that they specially were still filming this week.

Also, I just thought of this could the dagger scene In the square be from the beginning of 421 since it's supposed to be a 2 hour episode? (I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned that, or debunked that theory)

Edited April 8, 2015 by SiobhanJW

[Souris]

One of the set regulars said JMo wrapped Friday, but I don't know how concrete/accurate that info was. The cast wrap party was Saturday night, so I could see them staying around for an Easter gathering the next day, regardless of whether any of them still had something to film (especially if the wrap party involved a lot of drinking. ;-). Josh and Ginny flew back on LA on Saturday afternoon and didn't stay for the wrap party. I haven't seen anything about who else was or wasn't at the wrap party.

 

I guess I just didn't think that Robin would be a character involved in the final "extra" days of filming.

[Serena]

JMO also had a con in Van that weekend.

 

Can anyone else just see Eddy twisting himself into a pretzel answering the last question?

Edited April 8, 2015 by Serena

[kili]

Can anyone else just seen Eddy twisting himself into a pretzel answering the last question?

 

Yep. IDK, Urusula happily allied herself with somebody who burnt knights and villages full of people allive. She may not have killed people herself, but she certainly was an accomplice. And there wasn't a lot of remorse she felt when trying to kill Hook and threatening to kill Snow.

 

People like Rumple and the Evil Queen, they’ve done much darker deeds in the past, whereas Ursula was kind of in our “evil is made” [category].

 

Is he saying those two cannot get their happy ending as long as Emma is around?

[YaddaYadda]

A&E give me terrible headaches.  So Ursula is in the evil is made category unlike Regina and Rumple?  I thought Regina fell in the same category as Ursula.

 

I also don't like the sound of "we don't know when the author started breaking the rules."  FML, seriously.  So what is it now?  Why are you writing something about choices and free will if you're going to skip over it and say the opposite of that?

 

The Cruella episode is a top 5 favorite of one of our two bozos?  Goodman and Schwartz wrote it, so we will see.  And I have seen only two hints about Cruella and the main one was that she probably grew up dirt poor.  Otherwise, nothing.

[Rumsy4]

Is he saying those two cannot get their happy ending as long as Emma is around?

 

 

It was because of a couple things. No. 1, her happy ending really was about the restoration of something that was taken from her. She wasn’t asking for anything she didn’t already possess, so that puts her in a different situation. And as we saw, Ursula was much more of a scorned, tortured villain as opposed to a true villain. People like Rumple and the Evil Queen, they’ve done much darker deeds in the past, whereas Ursula was kind of in our “evil is made” [category]. She wasn’t a full-on villain.

 

Eddy always seems to twist things up in interviews. His explanation makes no sense to me. So, Regina and Rumple were born evil, not made? Isn't the opposite what they've been preaching all along in the Show? Are they going full tilt with predestination now? 

Edited April 8, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Curio]

I love some of the passive-aggresive digs that interviewer slid in.
 
"I ask this only because it was revealed off-camera over a commercial break: Did Emma learn the whole truth about her parents’ secret?" -- AKA: Please confirm this for me, because yet again, an important scene happened off screen.
 
"Have there been any hints? Could a viewer have surmised what it is?" -- AKA: You guys never drop any hints to the audience, so I assume that's still the case now?
 

No. 1, [ursula's] happy ending really was about the restoration of something that was taken from her. She wasn’t asking for anything she didn’t already possess, so that puts her in a different situation. And as we saw, Ursula was much more of a scorned, tortured villain as opposed to a true villain. People like Rumple and the Evil Queen, they’ve done much darker deeds in the past, whereas Ursula was kind of in our “evil is made” [category]. She wasn’t a full-on villain.

Holy contradictions, Batman! First, I thought all of the villains on this show were "made?" Saying they were born into it or the author forced them to be evil takes away their free will and their accountability. If Regina and Rumple are more hardcore villains, are they saying they might as well not even attempt Ursula's method of obtaining her happy ending and that the author is the only way to go about it? And I noticed they didn't include Hook in their "darker deeds" villain category. Are they saying he's more of a "scorned, tortured villain" like Ursula? If so, why is he the one who ends up losing his happy ending by the end of this season?

 

My head hurts.

[Rumsy4]

"Have there been any hints? Could a viewer have surmised what it is?" -- AKA: You guys never drop any hints to the audience, so I assume that's still the case now?

 

Yes, because A&E are more about the WTF twist than building up organically towards something. Adam is literally proud of the fact that no one is going to guess Cruella's Happy Ending. lol

 

...our hope is that what it actually turns out to be will be a surprise to everyone.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Notwisconsin]

as to the "race card" discussion above: This is based on the Disney version, where everyone except Mulan and Aladdin is of English/British descent. The Grimm's collection of Fairy Tales is German, and Hans Andersen's characters are Scandinavian.

 

As to Oz, they are all WASPs.

[Rumsy4]

as to the "race card" discussion above: This is based on the Disney version, where everyone except Mulan and Aladdin is of English/British descent. The Grimm's collection of Fairy Tales is German, and Hans Andersen's characters are Scandinavian.

 

ONCE is about giving everything a fresh twist, so not sure why race-bending would be an exception. After all, they gender-bent Jack. Besides, it's not like they solely cast people of German/Scandinavian descent for the parts. 

Edited April 8, 2015 by Rumsy4

[YaddaYadda]

They're also said the evil queen and Rumple, not Regina and Rumple.

[Curio]

They're also said the evil queen and Rumple, not Regina and Rumple.

 

Wait, are you telling me that the Evil Queen and Regina are actually two completely different characters and should be treated as such? Even though we don't go out of the way to differentiate Rumple/Gold from Rumplestiltskin and Hook/Killian from Captain Hook as two different identities? (If you couldn't tell, I'm not being snarky at you, I'm being snarky at the show and their stupid tendency to beat us over the head that the Evil Queen and Regina are basically two completely different characters in their eyes instead of the same person.)

[YaddaYadda]

Wait, are you telling me that the Evil Queen and Regina are actually two completely different characters and should be treated as such? Even though we don't go out of the way to differentiate Rumple/Gold from Rumplestiltskin and Hook/Killian from Captain Hook as two different identities? (If you couldn't tell, I'm not being snarky at you, I'm being snarky at the show and their stupid tendency to beat us over the head that the Evil Queen and Regina are basically two completely different characters in their eyes instead of the same person.)

Snark away!  That's where the whole problem with this show is.  For the writers, Regina and the Evil Queen are two separate entities when for most viewers, she's one and the same.  Is she trying to change?  Yes.  Is she making efforts?  Yes.  Do I think she can change?  Yes.  But the writing has done the character a huge disservice.  They try to separate Regina and the Evil Queen, but then give us flashbacks of shit she did in her past, have Cruella and Ursula bring it up, bring up Graham which always brings up the way he died.  So over it!

[KingOfHearts]

 

Wait, are you telling me that the Evil Queen and Regina are actually two completely different characters and should be treated as such?

That's the 101st reason Regina should have had a cursed personality.

 

 

People like Rumple and the Evil Queen, they’ve done much darker deeds in the past, whereas Ursula was kind of in our “evil is made” [category]. She wasn’t a full-on villain.

I think we all know Rumple and Regina became villains because of bad choices. So yes, evil is made, dearies.

Edited April 8, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

A&E just need to stop giving interviews. You know what the correct answer to the how did Ursula get her happy ending question is? It's because she didn't use the author to get it. How stupid are these guys? It their show! Ursula said that the author can't give anyone a happy ending, not that you can't get one at all. Why do I watch this show again?

[Zuleikha]

I actually don't like the argument that they should have cast a Latina or Hispanic actress as an adult Lily based on the actress who played young Lily. To me, it's saying that since the young Lily was a Latina actress then she has to be a Latina character.

 

I don't think there's anything weird about saying that the grown up version of a character should match the ethnicity of the young version of the character! It's one thing to genderbend or racebend a character from the beginning, but it's very odd to do it midstream! Since Lily was presumably always intended to be the white Maleficent's daughter, I don't know why they cast a Latina actress in the first place (I mean, I do know why... to make young Lily look like young Regina, but since young Lily wasn't young Regina, that was a stupid decision). I feel for Agnes, though, since she's likely to take the heat of the choice when the continuity error was actually the young Lily casting. 

 

ETA: And since I've now broken and read spoilers, can I just say... MARIAN IS ZELENA????? What the frack! And if this has been planned since 3B, why couldn't the writers foreshadow it by having a short scene or two between Robin and Will in which Robin comments on how things are awkward with Marian and she just doesn't seem like herself so that Robin's lack of feelings for her would be less squicky?

Edited April 8, 2015 by Zuleikha

[mjgchick]

What about the Regina who was treating her son like crap and forcing poor Graham to lay their while she rap... I mean sex (blech) him up when Emma first arrived? Is she the Evil Queen as well? I hope more interviewers bust their balls for how far off they are about their own writing.

Also how does Mal get a happy ending when she was a villain long before Snow and David stole her egg? Aye dios mio.

[Curio]

You know what the correct answer to the how did Ursula get her happy ending question is? It's because she didn't use the author to get it.

 

Thank you. But he probably couldn't say that in the interview because they're probably saving that as their big* shocking* twist* at the end of the season where all the villains realize they didn't need to use the author to get their happy endings, they had that ability inside them all along.

 

*Let it be noted that this "twist" will be neither big nor shocking.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Curio

[rachel1496]

I think we all know Rumple and Regina became villains because of bad choices. So yes, evil is made, dearies.

Have any of the villains on this show fallen into the "villains are born" category?  Rumple didn't become evil until he became the dark one, Regina was fine until after Daniel's death.  Zelena became a villain due to jealousy so you could maybe stretch that to evil being born but it would be a pretty big stretch.  I can't remember a single villain that didn't have some tragic sob story about why they turned.

[Mari]

Have any of the villains on this show fallen into the "villains are born" category? 

Pan?  He was a lousy father who abandoned his son so that he could be a creepy teenager forever.  (Although I agree with your overall point that these villains chose to be villains, because they thought it would get them what they wanted.  The "what they wanted" just varied from villain to villain.)

[FabulousTater]

MARIAN IS ZELENA????? What the frack! And if this has been planned since 3B, why couldn't the writers foreshadow it by having a short scene or two between Robin and Will in which Robin comments on how things are awkward with Marian and she just doesn't seem like herself so that Robin's lack of feelings for her would be less squicky?

Three words: Alien Vampire Bunnies.

 

And also because it wasn't planned. The writers pulled this plot "twist" out of their butts five minutes before they wrote the script for this episode.

Edited April 8, 2015 by FabulousTater

[HoodlumSheep]

KITSIS | And we’re going to see how he first met Will Scarlett.

Now that I think of it, we didn't see how Will first met Robin Hood in ouatiw (if I remember correctly). What we did see was his initiation into the merry men, so him joining had to be quite, quite soon after they met (based on how they interacted in that scene).

Click here at your own risk (Wonderland spoilers, but at this point I feel like it's fair game) if you want to check out his initiation:

Which leads to this:

And this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8qmG9NjMaYs

And sadly the Will/Robin Hood confrontation seems to not be on youtube...

But it seems like it happened all in one/two nights.

Now that I think of it, I've been placing all of Robin's and Will's interaction that involve him hearing about Marian at some point between stealing the mirror and leaving the group, but it makes more sense if all their adventures or whatever together took place before he was actually initiated, which then makes the whole "friends/knew each other decently well" thing in 4a contradict how they interacted in Wonderland (like they didn't know each other that well). And There's been no indication from Will yet that he even knows(ish) Mal.

Does any of this make sense? My rambling might not be coherent. I want to punch a wall now, and go sob in a corner for the rest of the night.

This post may have been better in the continuity thread or something. Sorry.

Oh, and I think Robin Hood actually acts more like Robin hood in the first clip than what he has in pretty much all of the times he's been on Once.

Edited April 8, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Mari]

And also because it wasn't planned. The writers pulled this plot "twist" out of their butts five minutes before they wrote the script for this episode.

I think because they got a lot of blowback about the Robin/Regina relationship from people and sites that would ordinarily be cheering a juicy Regina-centered story.  People--and not the usual crew that don't enjoy Regina scenes--were calling it "Adultery Queen" and asking some pretty pointed and unpleasant questions about it.

 

Unless it's very carefully done (and how much is with TS, TW?), it's going to come across as nothing so much as them trying to erase the problems with bringing Marian back and starting the Robin/Regina affair.

[OnceUponAJen]

Do we have an Alien Vampire Bunny gif or jpg, because I think we need one. Then after every frustrating interview, we can just post that. I think everyone will understand :)

[YaddaYadda]

But they had to be expecting this to happen though.  Robin is telling Regina how much he loved Marian one second, he is hugging his wife who just came from the death another second and two days later, he is chasing after Regina and telling her that he wants her.  Turning Marian into Zelena won't change the cheating imo, not for me at least because when Regina and Robin did the dirty, they had no idea it was Zelena who was frozen.  All they knew was that Marian was frozen and that's it and it had been just a few days, not a few months since that happened and Regina was still looking for a way to help her while Robin was looking for a way to give Regina hope that they would happen.  

 

Whatever, writers.

[regularlyleaded]

Do we have an Alien Vampire Bunny gif or jpg, because I think we need one. Then after every frustrating interview, we can just post that. I think everyone will understand :)

I made one (because I'm a dork :D)! There was a link to it on that page in the Writer's thread where Shanna Marie first posited the Alien Vampire Bunnies contrivance.

edit: I just checked the link on the original thread page and the link is broken. d'oh!  Here's the new link.

 

I feel like this season has hit a new all time high of Alien Vampire Bunnies for this show.

Edited April 8, 2015 by regularlyleaded

[BoPeeps]

Shaking my head. What a phenomenal mess every single interview is with A&E.

 

"I ask this only because it was revealed off-camera over a commercial break: Did Emma learn the whole truth about her parents’ secret?" -- AKA: Please confirm this for me, because yet again, an important scene happened off screen.

 

Snork. Most of the genuinely challenging scenes have happened off screen with the best stuff being supplied as a better written, never spoken script living in the viewers heads. Honestly, they do such a crappy job of giving *scoops* to the media. *Diving right in head first* is right up there with *We delve into that* *I would be sad if that didn't happen* and *I certainly hope so* as the most dimwitted misleading comments by people who control everything, ever.

 

And Once's Robin Hood is being shown as the classic Robin Hood????

Gag me with a spoon.

[KingOfHearts]

Pan? He was a lousy father who abandoned his son so that he could be a creepy teenager forever. (Although I agree with your overall point that these villains chose to be villains, because they thought it would get them what they wanted. The "what they wanted" just varied from villain to villain.)

We didn't, however, see his origin. He was already a creepy older adult when we first meet him. It's entirely possible he was once a good kid then became dishonest after his rough childhood.

[FabulousTater]

I think because they got a lot of blowback about the Robin/Regina relationship from people and sites that would ordinarily be cheering a juicy Regina-centered story.  People--and not the usual crew that don't enjoy Regina scenes--were calling it "Adultery Queen" and asking some pretty pointed and unpleasant questions about it.

 

Unless it's very carefully done (and how much is with TS, TW?), it's going to come across as nothing so much as them trying to erase the problems with bringing Marian back and starting the Robin/Regina affair.

Ya, I agree with you that they are probably trying to whitewash what went down. Like, not just trying to whitewash the adultery queen aspect, but also that Robin didn't even blink (and neither did any other character for that matter) that Regina had pretty much murdered his wife and that's why she was gone from his life; Regina was basically profiting from her own past evil deeds (as usual).

 

But, even if the writers claim "It's not adultery because Zelena was Marian all along! Suck it haters!" Robin and Regina only knew her as Marian, so they both saw it as adultery and still went all ahead. And on top of it all Snow also (in another lets destroy Snow's character to prop Regina moment) wholeheartedly endorsed the adultery by saying "Oh, I did that adultery stuff too! So who cares! It's totes cool, Reggie! Go sleep with the husband of the woman who's a human popsicle and you had planned to murder! Ra-Ra-Ra!".

 

I just don't think Zelena = Marian fixes anything. If anything I see it as a pathetic attempt by the writers to fix a crappily written relationship with more crappy writing, and the result is just an even bigger pile of crap.

Edited April 9, 2015 by FabulousTater

[KingOfHearts]

 

I just don't think Zelena = Marian fixes anything. If anything I see it as a pathetic attempt by the writers to fix a crappily written relationship with more crappy writing, and the result is just an even bigger pile of crap.

It makes you wonder if the writers just kept it on the sidelines in case the Adultery Queen went sour, which it did. It seems like a very, very optional plot development. Besides that I think the writers just loved Zelena because she was Regina 2.0 with no consequences to worry about.

Edited April 9, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

I still wonder what they were thinking for 4A if not for Frozen. I mean, if the backup/original plan was for Marian = Zelena that means we would have gotten another half season of Regina v Zelena. They think the audience would have been entertained by more of that? We spent a large amount of time explaining why Marian = Zelena was ridiculous post-3B because everyone saw that twist happening and then breathed a sigh of relief when it didn't happen. Now they've brought it back with even more contrivances and unbelievability. This show is a train wreck. At this point, I'm pretty much only watching to see how bad it gets. 

[retrograde]

I think their plan was bringing Mal back plus Marian = Zelena part-way through. 

 

Sean filming after the others wrapped is interesting. I guess they might finally be doing something with him (and Will?) in 5A. 

[YaddaYadda]

Will and Robin can set up only one world, Wonderland.  Or at least, I think.