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Spoiler Discussion: The apple was poisoned?!


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I thought they'd already lost all touch with reality and logic where Regina was concerned, but it appears that it could get worse. Oh dear. We may be reaching the point where I really just can't and I start reading recaps and looking for YouTube clips of potentially interesting scenes but don't bother watching the show itself.

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It seems really weird they would bring back a Big Bad just for an encounter in flashbacks. You'd think she have to do something with the overall plot, similarly to Cora in 3x18.

 

This half-assed season seems very action-packed and full of all kinds of things. It sounds a little exciting to me, because I actually like the characters that are going to be touched on, but I'm worried about this Author plot and if they'll actually do anything interesting with it. Are there going to be major twists mid-arc? Will the cliffhanger be crazy? That's my dealbreaker.

 

There was a typo in your post.  I corrected it for you.

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If Zelena is Marian, that could absolve Robin too, for not being able to give her a true love's kiss. I mean, it could be written that way. However, he did admit that he couldn't because he was in love with Regina.

Edited by OnceUponAJen
  • Love 2
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Having Zelena actually be Marian doesn't let Regina off the hook...how do we know she actually didn't have her executed anyway, and Zelana just took her place. All we saw was Regina having her hauled away and then her being in the cell.  Having Zelena take Marian's place isnt anymore ridiculous then the rest of this show's nonsense, especially her thing about changing the past...as in, if she did go back she would be alive and corpreal for her to effect the change..so then she would exist as both an infant AND an adult and wouldnt changing the past change her going back in the first place..and time travel is just stupid.

 

Anyway, her spirit could have been trapped and just followed Emma and Hook...so her body died but not her spirit, blah, blah, blah. Zelena is just a pathetic enough villain that she would think that keeping Robin from Regina and getting it on with him every night would be just dandy (as we saw with Rump, she is one cat on a hot tin roof around men) even if she had to be magicless, and poor.  An interesting thing would be if by being with Robin and that kid, she does reform and loves being part of a family and Robin actually falls in love with her...but that would be too hard for the writers..instead its more fun for them to have an over the top villain shouting, "I will HAVE my revenge!"

 

Though it would be more fun if Zelena had taken Belle's place and has been secretly poisioning Rump with a super duper never heard of before magic potion that can indeed weaken and kill the Dark One.

Edited by Mitch
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.how do we know she actually didn't have her executed anyway, and Zelana just took her place.

 

I think it's completely irrelevant at this point whether Regina executed Marian or not.  I don't think it has any kind of bearing on the story anymore just because the person who should be concerned and upset about this aka Robin even though he did not know the Evil Queen doesn't give a flip that his new girlfriend did something like that (holy never ending sentence!).  Snow doesn't care that Marian might have died trying to protect her (that is if she even knows about it) since she encouraged whatever Regina and Robin were doing.  So anyone who might show some sense of outrage that Zelena maybe (if that's what really happened) killed Marian to wash Regina's hands off needs to just go away.  

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If Zelena is Marian, that could absolve Robin too, for not being able to give her a true love's kiss. I mean, it could be written that way. However, he did admit that he couldn't because he was in love with Regina.

Well, it could have been the ice too. (No matter what Robin said... he doesn't know squat about magic.)

Edited by KingOfHearts
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I think it's completely irrelevant at this point whether Regina executed Marian or not.  I don't think it has any kind of bearing on the story anymore just because the person who should be concerned and upset about this aka Robin even though he did not know the Evil Queen doesn't give a flip that his new girlfriend did something like that (holy never ending sentence!).  Snow doesn't care that Marian might have died trying to protect her (that is if she even knows about it) since she encouraged whatever Regina and Robin were doing.  So anyone who might show some sense of outrage that Zelena maybe (if that's what really happened) killed Marian to wash Regina's hands off needs to just go away.  

Well, let's put the Regina hatred aside for a minute..my post was that IF Regina had her executed earlier...(Regina even said she didnt remember her as she was so vanilla and yea, she is right) Zelena could have easily popped in and taken her place afterward to befriend Emma and cause Regina problems in the future. Yea, I know it makes no sense that Zelean would know that Emma would take her back to the future, etc...but this is Once.

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Some pics from yesterday here.

Why is the top of Zelena's hat squished in? It looks like she's wearing a black traffic cone on her head.

Zelena-as-Marian makes no sense whatsoever. It's more likely Marian asking Zelena for help with something to go against Regina, or vice versa. Common enemy and all.

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Zelena-as-Marian makes no sense whatsoever. It's more likely Marian asking Zelena for help with something to go against Regina, or vice versa. Common enemy and all.

It could make sense, but the fact Zelena is green and wearing her signature witch outfit means that's not what they're going for. This had to be post-Rumple and post-Kansas but pre-Snow Falls, which doesn't make sense. If Zelena were in the Enchanted Forest, wouldn't she be there to take revenge on Regina?

Edited by KingOfHearts
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Am I being too cynical if I say that I wouldn't be surprised if they simply forgot at what point in the timeline Zelena turned green, and they figured the audience was too dumb to figure out who she was if she wasn't green?

 

She could be from anywhere in the timeline. 

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I'm a little confused about this Zelena as Marian theory. By the time the time travel worked for her to go back and make the switch, Zelena had already been killed by Gold. At what point could she change into Marian if she's already dead? What am I missing?

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I'm a little confused about this Zelena as Marian theory. By the time the time travel worked for her to go back and make the switch, Zelena had already been killed by Gold. At what point could she change into Marian if she's already dead? What am I missing?

Zelena's pendant held her life, as Glinda said. Therefore I don't think she ever truly died, whether Zelena/Marian comes to fruition or not.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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Her smoke going into the portal meant she wasn't really dead or something? The whole thing doesn't make any sense since how would Zelena know who Marian was? She may have known that Robin was Regina's boyfriend, but Marian was dead in that timeline and had purposefully kept her identity hidden for fear of harm coming to her family just before her death. So we're saying that somehow in the five minutes Hook & Emma spent figuring out what to do, Zelena found out who Marian was and managed to switch with her on the off chance that not only would Emma break her out of jail, but also come up with the notion to take her with her? Also, Marian refused to go with them in the first place, so she was also banking on them knocking her out and kidnapping her. That's way too much to swallow.

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It could make sense, but the fact Zelena is green and wearing her signature witch outfit means that's not what they're going for. This had to be post-Rumple and post-Kansas but pre-Snow Falls, which doesn't make sense. If Zelena were in the Enchanted Forest, wouldn't she be there to take revenge on Regina?

 

There is no other explanation for this but Zelena being somehow involved in Marian getting taken captive by Regina while protecting Snow.  We don't know why or how any of that happened and they scrupulously ignored explaining the oddity of it.  This smells of Marian and Zelena being in league against Regina for an as yet unknown reason, unrelated to Regina's relationship with Robin, absolving Regina by making Marian a conspirator against her instead of an innocent.  That village she killed was probably secretly worshipping Zelena too.

 

And I know that doesn't excuse Regina of anything and Regina didn't even know Zelena then; but I'm inside the mind of A&E and its an illogical and annoying place.

Edited by ParadoxLost
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If Marian turns out to be Zelena, this will be it for me. A real jump the shark moment.

 

I can't believe this could STILL happen.  I thought we were past the "safe zone".  Oops, there is no safe zone on this show.  

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I can't believe this could STILL happen.  I thought we were past the "safe zone".  Oops, there is no safe zone on this show.

Agreed. I thought that shipped sailed with 4A. If they've got her in Wicked Witch makeup, made another world hop, and brought on a Big Bad actress, you know it's got to mean something in the longrun when they could have used any generic antagonist for a simple flashback encounter. It has to be relevant somehow.

 

Who am I kidding? She's just a prop for the Team Villain lineup. I'm just shocked to see multi-arc continuity.

 

 

I expect Robbie Kay to show up in a flashback soon

 

Neverbacks? I'm in!

Edited by KingOfHearts
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I can't believe this could STILL happen.  I thought we were past the "safe zone".  Oops, there is no safe zone on this show.  

 

Zelena as Marian just clicked in my head as making total sense for This Show.  If the pendant does mean that Zelena didn't die.  Then she goes back with the time travel spell,  kills Marian. casts a spell to appear to be Marian, and Regina is both absolved of responsibility for killing Marian and an enemy of the woman that killed Robin's wife who is also posing as Robin's wife.  She gets to save Robin and Roland.

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I expect Robbie Kay to show up in a flashback soon (likely showing how he got the scroll with Henry's face on it from the Sorcerer), since he, Rebecca Mader, Eion Bailey, Joanna Garcia Swisher, and Jessie Schram were all at the big S4 premiere along with the regular and Frozen character cast. Schram has already appeared and likely will again to tie in with the Cinderella movie coming out, and we know Bailey, Swisher and now Mader are coming back. Kay is the only one unaccounted for.

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Wait, was Zelena's LIFE tied to the necklace or just her magic? I thought it was her magic. Did they show what ultimately happened to the jewel? Didn't Regina snatch it off her neck? Does she still have it, and if she does, then supposedly she would possess Zelena's power (or life).

I would welcome a Pan reappearance if it means more Neverland flashbacks, especially ones with him, Hook, and Tink. We were robbed of quality Captain Hook vs. Pan (and Tinkerbell) scenes.

  • Love 2
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Wait, was Zelena's LIFE tied to the necklace or just her magic? I thought it was her magic. Did they show what ultimately happened to the jewel? Didn't Regina snatch it off her neck? Does she still have it, and if she does, then supposedly she would possess Zelena's power (or life).

Yes.

Glinda: "Protect it with your life, because in many ways it now is your life."

 

Regina locked the pendant up in her vault, then the pendant let out the magic that created the time portal later. We never saw a body when Zelena "died" - her shards simply poofed away into her own magic. This all really seemed like setup for a return later... maybe it's just me.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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While the idea of Zelena having survived is interesting to me, I don't think she's Marian at least. I wouldn't mind if they had gone that direction by her pretending to be Marian in order to ruin any happiness Regina might have achieved with RH, but it's hard to make sense of it considering Marian wants to leave Emma and Hook after they get away from the cell. She even offers Robin Hood a chance to be with Regina in 4A, which I can't see Zelena doing if it was really her. If those two hadn't happened--especially the latter--I would probably enjoy this theory, especially if it was an explanation for why RH couldn't give Marian a true love's kiss when she was frozen.

 

Part of me would've liked if Zelena, Ursula, Cruella, and Maleficent were the "Witches of the West," East, North, and South, too, but that wouldn't make sense considering the other three were never in Oz that we know. Either way, I'm happy they're doing something with their previous villains; a little to keep the half-seasons' storylines from feeling isolated from each other.

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Ugh, it's so annoying when people don't put the source (or put the wrong one). It is an odd pic. If I had to guess... that paper thingy may be something for charity? A symbol?

That's a Flat Stanley. Kids color it and send it places to have it's picture taken somewhere like London or Vancouver or whatever. It totally has nothing to do with the show and isn't a spoiler. It just reconfirms that those actors were filming together, which we already knew

  • Love 2
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Regina is engaged to King Leopold

Daniel is killed

Regina begins magic lessons with Rumple

Zelena turns green with envy

Regina marries Leopold

Tink takes Regina to meet Robin, she chickens out

Leopold is murdered

Snow goes on the run

Marian is arrested for protecting Snow

Snowing meets

Regina presumably kills Marian

Snowing marries

Emma is born and the first curse is cast

29/30 years in Storybrooke

Pan casts second curse

Regina discovers Zelena in her castle in full WW mode

Snow casts third curse tainted with Zelena's memory spell

Snowflake is born

Zelena casts Time Travel spell

Rumple kills Zelena

Hook and Emma go back to Snowing meeting

Marian is saved and brought back to Storybrooke

 

OK, it helps me to look at the timeline. It looks like there's time for Marian and Zelena to meet. Maybe Zelena is privy to Tink's discussion with Regina and thwarts the possibility of Regina ever having her soulmate by arranging for Marian and Robin to meet? Just seems silly to bring her back for an insignificant plot detail like that.

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While the idea of Zelena having survived is interesting to me, I don't think she's Marian at least. I wouldn't mind if they had gone that direction by her pretending to be Marian in order to ruin any happiness Regina might have achieved with RH, but it's hard to make sense of it considering Marian wants to leave Emma and Hook after they get away from the cell. She even offers Robin Hood a chance to be with Regina in 4A, which I can't see Zelena doing if it was really her. If those two hadn't happened--especially the latter--I would probably enjoy this theory, especially if it was an explanation for why RH couldn't give Marian a true love's kiss when she was frozen.

 

 

 

Well, if Zelena was smart, she could have done that selfless acts knowing that is what would be expected of her and to gain the other's trust. We are told Hood is an "honorable man," (and I am not wanting to start an argument concerning this, just saying what they want us to believe) and Zelena would know he would honor the committement.  But Zelena is a typical "Once," villain who knows nothing about subtley...everything she does is over the top...(and for once I want a villain who doesnt explain what they are going to do, over and over and over again....) so I can't see her doing that. It would be fun if it did happen though..since they are not going to actually delve into the triangle...as in Robin's feeling for Marian, her for him and Robin and Regina..which would actually make an interesting story if eveything on this show wasnt so damn cartoony now.

 

Agree with others that its nice to have some continuity...and I do not beleive that Zelena is dead, or at least dead as Maleficent was.

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Zelena as Marian just clicked in my head as making total sense for This Show.  If the pendant does mean that Zelena didn't die.  Then she goes back with the time travel spell,  kills Marian. casts a spell to appear to be Marian, and Regina is both absolved of responsibility for killing Marian and an enemy of the woman that killed Robin's wife who is also posing as Robin's wife.  She gets to save Robin and Roland.

 

But again, how would Zelena know anything about Marian or why she would have been significant to Regina in either the past or the present?  Regina hadn't even met Robin Hood when Marian was captured, and their relationship didn't go public until after Zelena had been defeated.  There was simply no way for Zelena to link Marian to Regina as a means of ruining Regina's life.

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But again, how would Zelena know anything about Marian or why she would have been significant to Regina in either the past or the present?

It's possible Zelena only wanted to get back to the future, not necessarily to thwart Regina. Since she knew Emma and Hook would definitely find a way, she played the reverse-psychology card to follow them. Then when she got there, after Robin shouted, "Marian!" and Roland said "Momma?" she just went along with it. Since she knew Marian in the past according to these spoilers, it was the perfect opportunity. She already knew Robin from Storybrooke.

 

If Zelena had followed Captain Swan through the portal, and saw Regina parading Marian around, it would still be a way to get back at her if one of her victims came back from the dead and called her out, hence all the "You monster!" Breaking up Outlaw Queen just made it all even better.

 

As for knowing Emma was going to the same prison as Marian, she probably followed CS to the ball, disguised herself, and saw Emma get arrested. Since Regina only has two cells in her whole freaking castle because it wasn't difficult to spy Marian there. Who knows who Zelena could have shapeshifted as.

 

It's very complicated... but this is Once. It's this show. The Home Office and Neverland were just as convoluted. 

Edited by KingOfHearts
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Oh, I know!  Zels and Marian really are sisters on Jonathan's side and she was just saying hi to the sister she wasn't jealous of.

 

Or they're lovahs.  Zelena hates Rumple and Marian thinks Robin is a moron.

Edited by YaddaYadda
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It's possible Zelena only wanted to get back to the future, not necessarily to thwart Regina. 

 

Except that she had made it clear from the beginning that her only goal, her raison d'ëtre, if you will, was to take away what she saw as Regina's happy ending.  Even after she was in jail, and Regina herself had spelled out that her ending had been anything but happy (at least in Regina's eyes), Zelena was still bitter and insisted that if she ever got out and got her powers back, she'd make sure that Regina NEVER got her happy ending -- or any ending at all, for that matter.  It would make no sense to impersonate Marian simply as a way to return to the present unless it were to thwart Regina somehow, and impersonating someone who had no discernible connection to Regina's "happy ending" or existence would not further Zelena's goal of wiping both of them out.

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It would make no sense to impersonate Marian simply as a way to return to the present unless it were to thwart Regina somehow, and impersonating someone who had no discernible connection to Regina's "happy ending" or existence would not further Zelena's goal of wiping both of them out.

If she was stuck in the past where she didn't want to be, then I could see her wanting to get back to the present to start scheming again. She didn't need to know about Marian and Robin, but with these Green Zelena flashbacks coming up she might have. In the Snow Falls era, there was no way to get Rumple's affections and it would likely be that he'd kill her on sight. She could get to the present and steal the dagger back from Regina, thus putting her plan in motion again. Apparently the ingredients for the Time Travel spell were hard to come by, otherwise she wouldn't have been so desperate for Snowing's baby.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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As for knowing Emma was going to the same prison as Marian, she probably followed CS to the ball, disguised herself, and saw Emma get arrested. Since Regina only has two cells in her whole freaking castle because it wasn't difficult to spy Marian there. Who knows who Zelena could have shapeshifted as..

If Zelena had the power to shape-shift, why wouldn't she have her other magical abilities? Why choose to almost get taken out by a snow-monster and have to be saved by Regina and have to thank her? And I refuse to believe that Zelena would spend two seconds putting up with sad-sack Robin. She would have at least snatched his heart so she wouldn't have had to watch him mope abut Regina. I couldn't stand the once a week episode of that stuff, how could Zelena live next to that? I can see Marian putting up with it because she stupidly decided to have a kid with that moron and she's trying to see if she can make a go of it (I'm not surprised she threw him to Regina as soon as she was unthawed). But Zelena would have turned him into tree fungus after five minutes of the moping and then have fun accusing Regina of having killed/kidnapped/maimed him.

 

Zelena as Marian is such an illogical rube-goldbergian plan that A&E are probably super excited about doing it because it is such a "Great Idea " in their minds.

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I really doubt it's going to be something as convoluted as "Marian is really Zelena in disguise," but I fully expect them to come up with some way that Marian being captured by Regina was somehow really Zelena's fault, or Marian helped Zelena in some way, so that she totally deserved what Regina did to her, or some other way to blur Regina's culpability for Marian's fate and make Regina look like the better choice for a romantic partner for Robin than Marian is (never mind that Regina herself used magic to remember what she did to Marian).

 

Zelena lacked the self-control and patience to put up with any of the stuff we saw Marian go through. She might have held it together long enough to get herself brought back to Storybrooke, but she was such a loose cannon and so absolutely insane that she would have snapped long before now. I'm not sure she'd have made it through her first view of Regina, let alone made it to calmly praising Regina for saving her life and talking about seeing how much Robin loved her. Unless Zelena was on sedatives, she'd have started shrieking and going crazy-eyed long before then.

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Unless Zelena was on sedatives, she'd have started shrieking and going crazy-eyed long before then.

If A&E were trying to hard to get this twist to work, you know they'd sedate her to keep people from suspecting. Like how Belle had absolutely no doubts about Rumple, or how Snow and Charming weren't suspicious of Zelena, or how Emma is so accepting of the Author mission now. It's nothing past the writers to twist characters into pretzels to fit their plot. If Zelena can pretend to be a kindly midwife or Ariel, I wouldn't see Marian being out of reach on this show.

 

 

I really doubt it's going to be something as convoluted as "Marian is really Zelena in disguise," but I fully expect them to come up with some way that Marian being captured by Regina was somehow really Zelena's fault, or Marian helped Zelena in some way, so that she totally deserved what Regina did to her, or some other way to blur Regina's culpability for Marian's fate and make Regina look like the better choice for a romantic partner for Robin than Marian is (never mind that Regina herself used magic to remember what she did to Marian).

Well yes, I'm suspecting it's going to be that. I'm just saying it's not unlike A&E to pull something convoluted like Zelena being in disguise. There's something fishy about Zelena coming back with Marian because of how random it is.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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It's nothing past the writers to twist characters into pretzels to fit their plot. If Zelena can pretend to be a kindly midwife or Ariel, I wouldn't see Marian being out of reach on this show.

True. TS, TW*. Characterization means nothing, as long as they can carry out the plot they want.

 

* This show, these writers. It was either this or create a macro to avoid typing it all the time.

Edited by Shanna Marie
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* This show, these writers. It was either this or create a macro to avoid typing it all the time.

 

If we go the acronym route, maybe we make it TS;TW as a play on TL;DR.

 

Regarding Zelena and Marian's interaction, I've reached the point where I don't even care what they're talking about. I have literally no interest in either character, which is basically how I've felt about 95% of the spoilers for 4B so far.

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If you want to take the stupidity of Zelena = Marian even further, you would have to believe that she would be completely cool with Regina killing Snow even though that would have meant no Emma and thus, no way of getting back to the future as Marian. I know it's This Show, but there are way too many holes in this particular line of thinking for an entire room of writers to ignore. It's much more likely that Marian/Zelena is going to be further Regina whitewashing although I don't know why they'd bother. No one in show seemed particularly upset about Regina murdering the woman anyway. 

 

At this point, I'm really hoping that this show has gone completely AU with all kinds of realities playing out depending on whether or not a specific action was taken. I just am not looking forward to this half season at all. 

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If you want to take the stupidity of Zelena = Marian even further, you would have to believe that she would be completely cool with Regina killing Snow even though that would have meant no Emma and thus, no way of getting back to the future as Marian.

I don't see how that's relevant. She couldn't do anything because it would blow her cover, and she didn't know about Snow being executed until she was actually watching it happen. There's nothing she could have done to save the timeline but also get to the future. She was just lucky Snow turned out to be safe. Because of the extensive amount of research she must have did on time travel, she would quickly realize that because no one disappeared that the timeline was fine.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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Zelena is magic. She'd need to poof Snow out of there. Would it even blow her cover? She was standing behind them all. If Snow dies, her being Marian means nothing, so blowing her cover would be worth the risk. The whole thing is ridiculously contrived and my point is that there are an infinite number of things Zelena would have needed to go exactly right in order for becoming Marian to be a viable option. Why not just freaking stay in Storybrooke? Or poof wherever Emma & Hook reopen the portal and sneak back with them and then kill Robin? Simple, easy and not at all dependent on a bunch of random variables. 

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Just to move away from the Zelena conversation for a moment.  We had that "spoiler" or whatever it was about Hook trying to protect Emma's heart and I guess it's probably metaphorical as opposed to literal, though given what happened in 4A with Hook and the way they seem to parallel each other, I wouldn't really put it past the writers to go there with Emma as well.

 

So it got me thinking.  What if Emma's heart could not be taken by Cora because she was willing to sacrifice herself for her mother.  Emma jumped right in front of Snow to save her.  Maybe that willingness to sacrifice herself coupled with her magic which we know is powered by love made it that her heart could not be taken.

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Zelena is magic. She'd need to poof Snow out of there.

She may have been too far to poof out. Snow was tied up and really far away. There was no guarantee that she'd be able to teleport her out, as per what Regina said about getting Emma out of the water in 3x01. We don't know what the range is.

 

 

So it got me thinking.  What if Emma's heart could not be taken by Cora because she was willing to sacrifice herself for her mother.  Emma jumped right in front of Snow to save her.  Maybe that willingness to sacrifice herself coupled with her magic which we know is powered by love made it that her heart could not be taken.

Probably. It was her love for her mom that got her magic working.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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