Spoiler Discussion: The apple was poisoned?!

[retrograde]

Opening the hat may also be the reason they need the dagger, and why Regina is wielding it... though the scene with Hook and Belle and the dagger is 4.14, and you'd think they deal with it before that.

[YaddaYadda]

Maybe Belle takes it back, buries it then changes her mind that maybe someone should have the dagger.  Rumple is back in town when she thought he wouldn't be able to find his way back, maybe he says something to her that makes her feel threatened.  Maybe he threatens the town, maybe he tells her he will finish what he started with Hook.  I would feel threatened if I were Belle.  After what happened, can she really be sure he wouldn't go after her?  She banished him, sent him in a world where he has no powers, where he is a nobody and most importantly, no one fears him.  

[OnceUponAJen]

So, when Rumple gets back into town will he revert back to the Dark One after losing his powers? Was his name still on the dagger after he left town?

[Serena]

He lost his powers when he left town to go get Neal, and gained them back when he came back, so I think that's how it works.

[HoodlumSheep]

TVLine addresses the very important question of the fairies and their future http://tvline.com/2014/12/17/arrow-season-3-spoilers-sara-canary-returns/

People have said that the whole Hook blackmail storyline was pointless, but I don't think it necessarily was. He is the only other person who knows about the hat and how it works, and I assume that will continue to be of importance in 4b.

I agree. I'm waiting to see what goes down in 4b as well. He is the only one who knows how the hat functions, whether we get to see him actually explain it to them or not, is another question. Plus, you don't know if the fairies or Mickey will hold a grudge on him (the blackmail plot also connects Killy to Mickey, although that'll probably get ignored completely). Also, I'm waiting to see if there's any more fallout between Rumple and Hook, due to everything that went down.

Like, does this "villains get a happy ending" apply to every villain? I doubt Rumple wants Killy to get a happy ending.

The actual blackmail part is done and over, but I also wouldn't call it completely useless. It could have possibly been foreshadowing stuff yet to come (or at least I hope so).

[RadioGirl27]

The actress playing Blue was shooting for epidose 12, so I guess that freeing the people trapped in the hat would be one of the first things they do in the premiere. I hope it leads to a conversation between Emma and Hook, but I seriously doubt it.

[YaddaYadda]

If they are freeing everyone, then Emma already knows everything technically.  The conversation could be something as stupid as her telling him she wants him to trust her and that he shouldn't think he's alone.  How about that?  I mean he didn't think she trusted him and that was the reason she was pulling away from him when she her reasons were really that she was worried she'd lose him too.  So what's Hook's reasons for not leveling with Emma?  That could be the conversation.

[retrograde]

If they free them in the first ep, I wonder how they explain waiting six weeks to do it. Like they're walking down the street and Hook suddenly exclaims ".... oh shit."

Edited December 17, 2014 by retrograde

[YaddaYadda]

The thing is, I think it will be longer than 6 week skip.  Rumple still needs to find Cruella.  We don't know how long that's gonna take and then back to Storybrooke, so more than six weeks will probably have passed by the time the show comes back on the air.  It took him 6 weeks to find Ursula.  His 3rd stop is SB unless Mal has been sucked somewhere else by Snow's curse.  

[The Cake is a Pie]

It's possible Blue is in a fairyback? If they show Maleficient's backstory, then surely Blue is involved in some way (is she supposed to be the same blue fairy as in Sleeping Beauty? Merryweather?) Then they possibly aren't out of the hat yet, though if Blue appears in a fairyback then it seems it would be an opportune time to have them all unhatted. 

[RadioGirl27]

If they free them in the first ep, I wonder how they explain waiting six weeks to do it. Like they're walking down the street and Hook suddenly exclaims ".... oh shit."

Well, first they need to find a way to free them. Maybe that's why Belle, Hook and Emma were going into the library in the BTS pics.

Edited December 17, 2014 by RadioGirl27

[pezgirl7]

I think they are researching at the library how to free the people from the hat, and then that scene of them in the woods is them attempting to do it. That could be why Emma is holding Hook's hand, to reassure him that she will protect him if any of the hatted people want to go after him! Although it would be smartest for him to just not be there altogether. I also don't think it's very smart to release every magical being in the hat, since they have no idea who is all in there. Perhaps they only succeed in releasing some of the people. I would have guessed that the hatted people wouldn't get released until the end of the season, and then they would help defeat the new big bads, but since Blue was shooting recently, I guess she gets out sooner, unless it was a fairyback she was shooting.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I think they are researching at the library how to free the people from the hat, and then that scene of them in the woods is them attempting to do it.

Are you sure they weren't just going there to find more missing pages? That's the more pressing matter, after all.

 

 

Those pictures didn't show them go in to the library I don't think. I think they just walk past the library and say hi to Belle as she is opening up.

So, Belle is running the library and the pawn shop now? Dang. Henry's "usefulness just got unexpectedly extended."

Edited December 17, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[The Cake is a Pie]

Hook has seen Rumple wave the dagger over the box to open it. Twice. Either it's not as simple as that, or the writers simply forgot about it. I suppose they do have to do something more than merely open the thing.

Edited December 17, 2014 by The Cake is a Pie

[retrograde]

Those pictures didn't show them go in to the library I don't think. I think they just walk past the library and say hi to Belle as she is opening up.

[pezgirl7]

I thought the photos showed Hook and Emma walking to the library and meeting Belle there, and then they stood there while Belle unlocked the door. Which made me think they either went inside, or purposefully went there to talk to Belle. Who knows. Is it March yet?

[The Cake is a Pie]

Hook knows how to open the hat and how to suck people into it, but he probably doesn't know how to do the reverse. I doubt it is like a vacuum cleaner with a reverse switch. So my guess is that they will have to research (Belle) that so that someone (Regina) can unhat the magic people.

"It's gone from suck to blow!"

And I have used suck and sucking so many times in this post that I feel a little bit dirty.

*snert*

[MDKNIGHT]

Regarding other characters "screwing over" the queens of darkness int he past, did we ever see when Maleficent got turned into the dragon?  I remember Charming fighting her in dragon form and feeding her the egg of whatever but did she change herself into the dragon or did Regina do that TO her? I can't remember.   I know Regina kept her under the library in dragon form but was it Regina's fault she was a dragon?  Is it possible that the magic egg kept her in dragon form so indirectly it is Charming's fault she was in dragon form for 30 years? 

 

I'm sure Snow will be responsible for SOMETHING because of course (sarcasm) Regina has to be right about Snow being aweful. 

 

And yes when I found out that Jolie was going to play Maleficent in the movie I knew that since it was being made by Disney (a) she'd have a sob story for being evil since Disney won't let petty vanity or not getting an invite be the root of evil and (b) that there would be a better than 50/50 chance that it would borrow elements  of OUAT.  It is lke Disney had a staff meeting where they decided that if you are a hot chick you can't be all bad and that the fairy tale staple of people marrying people they just met was always stupid and they just weren't going to go with that anymore since that attitude helped Frozen make them over a billion dollars.  Money pushing positive social change is awesome.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Regarding other characters "screwing over" the queens of darkness int he past, did we ever see when Maleficent got turned into the dragon?  I remember Charming fighting her in dragon form and feeding her the egg of whatever but did she change herself into the dragon or did Regina do that TO her? I can't remember.   I know Regina kept her under the library in dragon form but was it Regina's fault she was a dragon?  Is it possible that the magic egg kept her in dragon form so indirectly it is Charming's fault she was in dragon form for 30 years?

Becoming a dragon to fight Charming was Maleficent's decision. She was in complete control of changing forms. With the Dark Curse, Regina trapped her in Storybrooke as a dragon. She was stuck in that form until she was defeated by Emma, after which Regina preserved her in phantom form.

 

So it looks like Storybrooke is just trying to neutralize the dagger and hat right now, in case Rumple returns or another evil wants them. Team Villain will probably sneak into town, a la Cora, and lay low so they can find a way to get Maleficent.

Edited December 18, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[The Cake is a Pie]

I wonder if they sneak back into town by somehow contacting Maleficent and having her as an agent on the inside. As in, she somehow disables the town line barrier long enough for them to get through, and in return they free her from the library pit.

 

From Zap2it:

'Once Upon A Time' EPs: Snow White and Prince Charming might be villains, not heroes

 

I can't even...

Edited December 18, 2014 by The Cake is a Pie

[ParadoxLost]

I'm sure Snow will be responsible for SOMETHING because of course (sarcasm) Regina has to be right about Snow being aweful. 

 

 

Snow is already ruined.  I'd rather that than them having Charming be a stand in for the would be king in the Jolie version of the movie.  That is what worries me most, that he gravely injured an innocent Maleficent to save the kingdom after jilting Midas' daughter.  I shouldn't be worrying about that since its so out of character, but...THIS SHOW.

[KingOfHearts]

 

'Once Upon A Time' EPs: Snow White and Prince Charming might be villains, not heroes

I just can't anymore. I can't say much else besides going into a super long rant. I don't think a spoiler has ever made me this angry.

 

 

I shouldn't be worrying about that since its so out of character, but...THIS SHOW.

But it's this show, you're right. It'll be totally "logical". Prepare for Regina's ultimate whitewashing. I need to get my barf bag.

 

 

The aforementioned flashbacks will take audiences back to Season 1 in a time before the curse, both in Storybrooke and the Enchanted Forest.

Except, Storybrooke didn't exist then.

Edited December 18, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Minneapple]

And yes when I found out that Jolie was going to play Maleficent in the movie I knew that since it was being made by Disney (a) she'd have a sob story for being evil since Disney won't let petty vanity or not getting an invite be the root of evil and (b) that there would be a better than 50/50 chance that it would borrow elements  of OUAT.  It is lke Disney had a staff meeting where they decided that if you are a hot chick you can't be all bad and that the fairy tale staple of people marrying people they just met was always stupid and they just weren't going to go with that anymore since that attitude helped Frozen make them over a billion dollars.  Money pushing positive social change is awesome.

The funny thing is that giving Maleficent a tragic backstory is what made the film toothless. Maleficent is a great villain and honestly there is no reason to *explain* a villain like her. She's supposed to represent true evil. Same with Regina. More often than not, when writers go about trying to explain villainy, they wind up *excusing* it instead. And these villains, who are fun because of their OTT craziness, become boring. Just like Regina became boring when she became not-evil. If you want to try and save a character from pure evil-ness, don't take him or her too far.

 

From Zap2it:

'Once Upon A Time' EPs: Snow White and Prince Charming might be villains, not heroes

 

Well, of course. Now this is where Horowitz has to walk a careful line, because just like when everyone was all, "Snow is OK with adultery?" people are going to question Snow and Charming being "evil." I'm sure they did something completely justified that will also somehow justify Maleficent being evil. And they'll have to pay because Maleficent shouldn't have to take ownership of her own actions, it was Snow and Charming's fault! Or the author's fault, since he wrote Snow and Charming's actions too. There is plenty of blame to go around, people, for Maleficent being evil and killing people. IT'S NOT HER FAULT.

[Joenigma]

 

Maleficent is a great villain and honestly there is no reason to *explain* a villain like her. She's supposed to represent true evil.

Same goes with other villains. I don't get this need to shade the boundaries between good and evil or right from wrong, but it seems they are obsessed with the "Point of View" argument. One person's hero is another person's villain.

 

 

I'm not even sure why the Sorcerer would create something that doesn't distinguish between good and evil

I have a sick feeling the Sorcerer is going to be considered both, Good and Evil. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if the Sorcerer created both the Hat and the Dark One's dagger.

 

 

That is what worries me most, that he gravely injured an innocent Maleficent to save the kingdom after jilting Midas' daughter.

 

Does Charming even know Maleficent before her put the egg inside her? From that episode I don't think he knew who she was.

[RadioGirl27]

From Zap2it:

'Once Upon A Time' EPs: Snow White and Prince Charming might be villains, not heroes

I can't even...

I've been dreading this since the post-finale interviews with A&E.

[Serena]

I thought the photos showed Hook and Emma walking to the library and meeting Belle there, and then they stood there while Belle unlocked the door. Which made me think they either went inside, or purposefully went there to talk to Belle. Who knows. Is it March yet?

There are pictures of Hook entering the library after Belle. I don't know about Emma, but Hook goes in. Which is where my "Hook is Belle's assistant" theory was born and why I'm never letting go.

 

Also, from zap2it:

"Is [being a hero or villain] based on a title or is it based on our actions? We are going to see in the second half villains doing surprising things and heroes doing surprising things," Kitsis says.

 

Snowing aren't heroes because of TITLES. This is such bullshit. Their ACTIONS made them heroes like Regina and Rumple's ACTIONS made them villains.

But hey, we can bet that now that Regina is "reformed" and the best hero EVER, heroes will suddenly become cool again!

Also, that article is fricking stupid. Ruby? Will Scarlet? No, they're not "between good and evil", wtf? 

Edited December 18, 2014 by Serena

[chrisvee]

I've been dreading this since the post-finale interviews with A&E.

::eye roll:: at A&E.

This may be where I keep watching only for the Hook/Emma scenes and FF through everything else. I'm not watching this show present that crap. Extending this theme, Emma should be the Wicked Queen not Regina based on what she's suffered.

Edited December 18, 2014 by chrisvee

[HoodlumSheep]

Poor Snowing, they don't deserve this :(

[Rumsy4]

Wow! They're planning to destroy Snowing at every level just to prop up Regina. And Killian is also going to backslide in 4B? After everything? Can't these writers think of something novel?

[kili]

They think this new trio are the necessary characters to bring some of the Charmings' dark secrets to light.

 

I think they think wrong.

 

The show has dabbled with making the golden couple dark before, specifically with Mary Margaret earning a black spot on her heart after killing Cora

 

How A&E thought the audience would react: Oh, that Snow, she's so evil. This is great. Poor Regina.

How the audience did react: That's so stupid. Snow acted in self-defense. It's not evil to stop people from killing you and your entire family for no reason. Big drop in ratings during this arc.

What A&E learned from this reaction: Boy, our audience is stupid. They didn't get what we were trying to do. Let's do it again and again and again. Why can't the see that Regina is the victim here? Let's tell them again: The Charmings are completely responsible for Regina being evil. Maybe we should show them turning more people evil?

 

If the Charmings are shown to be EVIL in the flashbacks, how come Snow only has one spot on her heart? Are A&E going to tell us that we just didn't look close enough when Regina pulled it out and it is festooned with dark spots?

 

When A&E watch "It's a Wonderful Life", do they cheer when Mr. Potter steals the money so that horrible George Bailey gets his just desserts by being sent to jail on Christmas day? How could the evil man get away with helping people buy homes with affordable mortgages for so long? Do they weep in frustration that those nasty ghosts make Scrooge feel bad? That evil Tiny Tim wins?

Edited December 18, 2014 by kili

[HoodlumSheep]

Wow! They're planning to destroy Snowing at every level just to prop up Regina. And Killian is also going to backslide in 4B? After everything? Can't these writers think of something novel?

I'm confused by the wording of the article, because I interpreted that line about Killy differenty. I read it as "he's a gray character/lies more on the border of good and evil/ pirate status." Not that he was going to necessarily backslide. Mainly because they mention Ruby and Will as also being morally gray right afterwards. So I guess I read it in a different context. He could be tempted though (although I would think it wasn't for actual villainous reasons).

I don't understand. Does this mean we'll see Ruby again? How is she treading the waters of hero and villain? She accidentally ate her first love, but it was pretty much out of her control (if anything, that makes Granny the villain for not telling her). and also Will. He's a thief, that's as villainous as he gets (and he was one of the heroes in Wonderland).

[YaddaYadda]

Wow! They're planning to destroy Snowing at every level just to prop up Regina. And Killian is also going to backslide in 4B? After everything? Can't these writers think of something novel?

That's not what they said though.

 

Parrilla has already clued us in that Regina will struggle with her light and dark sides, but she is by far not the only one that falls into the ambiguous category when it comes to Storybrooke characters. Hook (Colin O' Donoghue) also slides along the good to evil spectrum, and there's also Ruby (Meghan Ory) and Will Scarlet (Michael Socha) who are caught in the middle righteousness and vice. But surprisingly it will be done of these gray characters who will have the most trouble when it comes to choosing sides.

 

I don't even know if this quotes means that Ruby is coming back during 4B, but I took it to mean that because of their pasts, you don't really know where they will land because they fall between good and villain.  It doesn't mean Hook is going to backslide and he didn't even really backslide in the first half unless you consider the blackmail for this hand which actually belongs to him and he was just taking it back.

 

As far as Snow and David go, I'll reserve judgement on that but it sort of goes along the lines of heroes also make mistakes, but it's about the path they choose afterwards, that's what distinguishes a hero from a villain.  Do they regret their behavior, have they tried to make amends, are they better people or are they repeating the same mistake over and over?  I think it's about what distinguishes a hero from a villain at the end of the day and the thin line they thread.  We tend to look at these things as being black and white, but they're not most of the time.

 

If Charming knew Maleficent pre-going to see her upon Rumple's bidding, I'll call foul on that because he didn't even seem to know who she was.

[shipperx]

If they free them in the first ep, I wonder how they explain waiting six weeks to do it. Like they're walking down the street and Hook suddenly exclaims ".... oh shit."

Maybe they don't know you need the knife and the box (except Hook has seen it used that way). Or maybe they don't have the knife (except Belle has it). Or they don't have the box (except Hook and Emma are right there)

Okay, I just don't know.

Didn't rump need Anna's tear to make it work? Maybe they don't know that bit and the tear doesn't work when the knife possession has changed. So maybe they need a pure heart first?

No clue.

[Rumsy4]

I don't even know if this quotes means that Ruby is coming back during 4B, but I took it to mean that because of their pasts, you don't really know where they will land because they fall between good and villain.

I hope that is the case. I too don't think Ruby is coming back for sure. At the most, she may be there for an episode.

[YaddaYadda]

I think they'll just say that they've been looking for a solution to the problem for the last few weeks.  I'd think that now that Hook knows the house belongs to the sorcerer, maybe that's where they need to start their research.  I'm willing to overlook that it took them a while to find the answers they were looking for given the nature of the hat.  

[Serena]

If the Charmings are shown to be EVIL in the flashbacks, how come Snow only has one spot on her heart? Are A&E going to tell us that we just didn't look close enough when Regina pulled it out and it is festooned with dark spots?

Right! If they actually did something "evil", then they retcon the spot in her heart, which was supposed to be the first, AND the fact that Snowing passed through Glinda's door for the pure of heart or whatever.

 

They claim to want to re-examine what makes a hero and a villain, but those philosophical questions are pretty stupid in a show where you can see the actual physical manifestations of being one. So Snowing have been villains all along, but the heart (Charming's heart was also completely pure, right, when Regina crushed it?) and Glinda's door have been tricked by their good PR, just like the author?

Edited December 18, 2014 by Serena

[Mari]

They claim to want to re-examine what makes a hero and a villain, but those philosophical questions are pretty stupid in a show where you can see the actual physical manifestations of being one. So Snowing have been villains all along, but the heart (Charming's heart was also completely pure, right, when Regina crushed it?) and Glinda's door have been tricked by their good PR, just like the author?

It would possibly depend on how much control they've decided the Author's got. a&E could've decided that anyone labeled Hero didn't get a Darkened heart from being Heroic. Snow did because she was in our world and out of the Author's control.

Or, more likely, they've just decided to ignore their own canon. It's not like it'd be the first time.

[MaiLuna]

 

If Charming knew Maleficent pre-going to see her upon Rumple's bidding, I'll call foul on that because he didn't even seem to know who she was.

I'm pretty sure they dealt with her after since according to filming pics, they showed the round table and Snow in her white coat outfit which was after the sleeping curse.

Which makes me wonder...did Maleficent just lived all the time from the sleeping curse until the dark curse with that egg with True Love potion inside of her? Did she try to take it out? Did it affect her in any way?

 

That article made me even more mad. I'm so tired of A&E trying to make Snowing look bad just to make Regina look better. Sorry show, no matter how many Regina tears you show me, I am not going to forget the rape, mass murder and torture of innocent people that Regina caused. Because the tears she caused are about 1000 times more the ones she herself shed. And I can't even begin to care about her constant whining when she hypocritically complains about the Charmings whining like in 4x11. Just like I didn't care when she begged Charming not to hurt Daniel because I wonder how many people asked her not to hurt their loved ones and she just killed them anyway.

Why not make her feel sorry, apologize, and try to make amends and be better? That would turn her into a hero and then she could get a happy ending. I swear if this isn't how Operation Who-gives-a-rat's-ass end...I swear I will....just continue watching bitterly because I can't quit this show.

[shipperx]

That's not what they said though.

As far as Snow and David go, I'll reserve judgement on that but it sort of goes along the lines of heroes also make mistakes, but it's about the path they choose afterwards, that's what distinguishes a hero from a villain. Do they regret their behavior, have they tried to make amends, are they better people or are they repeating the same mistake over and over? I think it's about what distinguishes a hero from a villain at the end of the day and the thin line they thread. We tend to look at these things as being black and white, but they're not most of the time..

^This

I refuse to get bent out of shape until I see the story because there could be interesting things done with this. The thing is villains rarely think they are the villains. Everyone is the star of their own story and justify things to themselves. Look at Regina/Snow. I know everyone likes to yell about how Regina is 'excused' for going evil because of Snow telling the secret, but I don't really agree that's what's going on. Regina was called the EVIL Queen after that. Yes, Regina claims its Snow's fault but just like Snow yelled last week, the audience is supposed to recognize that Snow was 10!

Because a character believes something doesn't mean we are supposed to (or even that the show believes it. I realize I'm in a minority here to think that, but I don't think the show is saying she was justified). I do see Regina as believing it though (it was her motivation. It was why she sought revenge. But motivation isn't the same as justification. ) This was/is one of her greatest flaws. But the point remains people justify their actions to themselves (and often attempt to justify them to others). Rarely is someone the villain of their own story/ in their own minds, and they'll do alllllll the mental gymnastics required to twist the situation as needed to see it the way they want/need/wish to. Sometimes what separates a hero and a villain is a choice. Sometimes it's the reaction after a choice (I thought Fringe did a good job of this with its alt-verse version of Walter and the other Walter). Sometimes a villain can even have a righteous cause but still be the villain because of their methods to achieve their cause (Farscape was a master at this. It's primary villain wanted to vanquish an 'evil' enemy and bring 'peace' to the galaxy (and even kind of did at the end) but he was a villain because to achieve that goal he tortured people, used people, killed people. He wasn't the villain because of his goal. He was a villain because of the choices he made to achieve it, and he was a great villain because he stood as a shadow-self of the hero, who was quite aware that little separated him from the villain. At what point do the compromises turn a hero into a villain?).

Sometimes it's a matter of perspective. One of the greatest tragedies in the Game of Thrones saga is that Ned Stark was such a good, honorable man who wanted to do the right thing, but it doesn't take much to step back and see that his devotion to gallantry and honor subsequently destroyed his family and spiraled into a war that has done immeasurable harm. Had he been willing to be a bit more ruthless and less gallant a lot of people would have been a hell of a lot better off.

Now, I don't expect Once to achieve any of that kind of subtlety. Generally, once is far more juvenile and clumsy than that. There are many things that Once has not handled particularly well. But I don't think any story aimed at anything higher than a preschooler should try to paint good and evil as black and white. Real heroes are not always 100%stalwart and true. It's an impossible standard. And the battles they fight are rarely just about puppies and kittens and Christmas. Compromises and mistakes are made. The question are what compromises and what mistakes? When is it a compromise too great? When does a goal cease to justify its means. When does a good goal demand a necessary compromise? When does a bad goal have an unintended positive effect?

I have no problem questioning a hero. Heroes need to be questioned and to question themselves. Hubris leads easily to villainy. And, yeah, often bad guys think they're the hero... Because of hubris and/or warped perspective. The kind that convinced Rumple that it was okay to manipulate people and destroy lives so that he could find his son (and I do have sympathy for Regina in regards to Rumple and Cora. ). The kind of warped perspective that allows Regina to seek vengeance on a ten year old because of an honest judgement call that led to tragic consequences. I think every time they show Regina blameshift the show is intentionally showing that her redemption is far from complete (but I do give her credit for a few positive changes)

I'm willing to wait and see what the show will do. Yes they have had story fumbles and they may here too. But I'm fine with a story stance that examines perspective and what makes heroes and villains and everything in between. I know the result on this show will still be an oversimplification, because generally it's aimed at a young audience. But I don't desire it to be so simplified that it's black and white, where heroes and villains are identified by the hats they wear or the cleavage they show. Rarely are villains 100%bad. Rarer still are heroes infallible or omniscient. Many things define them. I don't need it to be a hard, inviolable boundary. That's boring. So tinker and toy with it and I'll decide after I watch it how well or terrible they did.

Chances are it'll disappoint.

But I'm not bent out of shape about it due to subject matter alone. I'm interested in what it means for Hook and will. Emma and Charming and Snow. And while Regina's story is often clumsily handled I don't hate her as viscerally as some do. Her redemption story has had many writing mistakes, it's true, but I still don't mind seeing her journey.

Heroes aren't always right? Villains often (wrongly) think they are justified? I can handle that as a story concept. I'll wait to see.

Edited December 18, 2014 by shipperx

[RadioGirl27]

I think the quote about Hook, Ruby (I miss her) and Will is there for context. They are saying that these three characters are grey, so it's difficult to put them in one side or the other. But Snow and Charming have been always seen as good and now they are going to show us how bad they are. At least, that's how I read it. But maybe I'm wrong.

I hate Adam and Eddie so much.

 

Right! If they actually did something "evil", then they retcon the spot in her heart, which was supposed to be the first, AND the fact that Snowing passed through Glinda's door for the pure of heart or whatever.

 

They claim to want to re-examine what makes a hero and a villain, but those philosophical questions are pretty stupid in a show where you can see the actual physical manifestations of being one. So Snowing have been villains all along, but the heart (Charming's heart was also completely pure, right, when Regina crushed it?) and Glinda's door have been tricked by their good PR, just like the author?

 

Or, more likely, they've just decided to ignore their own canon. It's not like it'd be the first time.

They forgot that Hook was there when Belle told Emma and Elsa that she knew Anna in the past, and that happened five or six episodes ago, not last season. They have probably forgoten about everything they showed last season, except the bits about Woegina.

 

 

Yes, Regina claims its Snow's fault but just like Snow yelled last week, the audience is supposed to recognize that Snow was 10! Because a character believes something doesn't mean we are supposed to (or even that the show believes it. I realize I'm in a minority here to think that).

But the problem here is that, if you read interviews with Adam and Eddie, or with Lana, they actually think that Regina is right and the biggest victim ever.

Edited December 18, 2014 by RadioGirl27

[shipperx]

I actually do consider Regina a victim in some contexts. Just not with Snow, or peasants, or Sydney, or the kingdom as a whole. The job Cora and Rumple did on her, however, was a doozy. They screwed her up quite badly when she was quite young... Which does not justify her later choices and actions.

Being a victim doesn't justify victimizing others. (So in that respect it doesn't matter how victimized Regina or lana's concept of Regina might be). And victimizing others makes you a villain.

But being a villain doesn't mean that they were never a victim ( in fact most villains probably were somewhere along the line). This isn't an either/or. It's just wrong to think that having once been a victim justifies the ongoing victimizing of someone else. When you're the one making victims, guess what that makes you? The bad guy--tragic youth or no.

Edited December 18, 2014 by shipperx

[Serena]

It would possibly depend on how much control they've decided the Author's got. a&E could've decided that anyone labeled Hero didn't get a Darkened heart from being Heroic. Snow did because she was in our world and out of the Author's control.

But apparently our World is still in the author's control, since Regina can't get Robin because injustice! prejudice! whining! etc

So there's really no way they can fanwank their way out of this.

 

But the problem here is that, if you read interviews with Adam and Eddie, or with Lana, they actually think that Regina is right and the biggest victim ever.

Right. Apparently Graham's murder and rape is water under the bridge and Emma and Regina should be BFFs, but GOD FORBID someone forgets that the Charmings once didn't invite Regina to their first dinner together as a family after being separated for 28 years by her curse. That's true evil.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Serena

[Rumsy4]

But the problem here is that, if you read interviews with Adam and Eddie, or with Lana, they actually think that Regina is right and the biggest victim ever.

Even if we ignore interviews as not canon and spin, within the context of the show, revealing secrets has been treated as a terrible sin multiple times, elevating it to to the same status as mass murder and rape. Besides, the show has spent more time exploring Regina's psyche and presenting her point of view than any one else's. A counterpoint to her opinions is but seldom presented.

The "I was ten" comment came when Snow was under the Shattered Sight spell. Otherwise, she seems to think that she and her mother are the worst ever for telling tales. So, I don't think I am unjustified in feeling apprehensive about the upcoming arc for Snow and Charming.

The show does a poor job in showing moral gray areas, because A&E are dishonest storytellers. For example, Regina was allowed to rail at Emma for ruining her life for a whole episode, despite the fact that Emma doesn't know Regina killed Graham. Regina was able to True Love kiss Henry, even though she never restored the memories she stole from him (as opposed to Gerta and Ingrid's redemptive moments hinging on restoration of stolen memories). A&E are not interested in exploring morality per se. They are storytellers manipulating their audience into a particular view of morality for each character.

[Mitch]

I think the whole hero/villain thing is why this show is becoming a big blah bore. I thought the original point was that the characters were in our world where things are quite so black and white.  While Regina did terrible things in our world she still was a mother trying to do her best but failing because of her own character faults (i.e. Henry and the gaslighting) David and Mary Margaret had an "affair,"(which people are still bitching about because the heros wouldnt do that)  not really but they thought it was....Snow killed someone to defend her family, and Regina saved the town from her own self destruct, etc. Emma was the in between who gives Regina the benefit of the doubt as she grew up in a real world.  I thought Henry's spoouting about Heros and Vilains is that he was a child and would find out that things arent quite so cut and tried.

 

But still the show four years in is still spouting about "Heros and Villains." and we are getting a whole arc about it??? Charming and Snow dont have much to do as they are still cardboard boring heroes and God knows what Regina is on any given day. Maybe this arc will suprise me but I doubt it.

[BoPeeps]

*sprinkles grains of salt all around the Once fandom*

Welllll, dark secrets to these fellows could be that Snow skipped her daily lessons in Proper Princess Accessories two days in a row and David threw some rocks at some errant sheep!

 

The concept is actually intriguing if this is one of the times they handle it thoughtfully. It all depends on what eventually hits the screen. They have been known to vastly overblow the importance of things that are introduced and handled within one page of script. They have a product to sell, and that is what all the wordsmith moments are all about.

[YaddaYadda]

The whole "heroes and villains", I blame on Henry, because they put these words in his mouth and then everyone buys into it because they're idiots.

[Curio]

The whole "heroes and villains", I blame on Henry, because they put these words in his mouth and then everyone buys into it because they're idiots.

 

God, can we please just send Henry off to an Enchanted Forest boarding school already? Maybe Henry's secret plan is that he actually wants to ask The Author to make his life better, since the kid doesn't have any friends, he's way too invested in his mothers' love lives, and his family is always in constant danger of dying. 

[Souris]

Aww, this probably means barely any Hook for 414, I guess.

 

From the Hook thread.

 

Next to no Emma, either. According to this, JMo filmed only one day on 4x14 and the ep is mostly Regina and Maleficent.

 

I am SO SICK of A&E muddying the heroes to make Regina look better. And when they do, it's always some ridiculous false equivalency like little Snow telling a secret is as bad as murder.

 

Maybe Snowing contemplated teaming up with the Evil Trio to take down Regina, but ultimately decided that was simply exchanging one evil for another. Or, you know, they didn't say "Excuse me" when they bumped Maleficent in the marketplace, which is the Most Vile and Evil Act that anyone could ever do.

[KingOfHearts]

The whole "heroes and villains", I blame on Henry, because they put these words in his mouth and then everyone buys into it because they're idiots.

Thank you! This is what bothers me the most. It's coming from a preteen who needs therapy and constantly gets into trouble. The fact the Queens of Darkness have the same morality should be irksome.

[YaddaYadda]

Next to no Emma, either. According to this, JMo filmed only one day on 4x14 and the ep is mostly Regina and Maleficent.

 

*makes fart noise with mouth*  I guess Evil Queen mode activated.  We all knew 4B would be Regina heavy, this is just prep for it.  I have very low expectations for the second half.