Spoiler Discussion: The apple was poisoned?!

[maryle]

I read the spoiler and I mostly liked it.

I love that CS have focus even if it seems hurtful!

loved the little Hook and his dad spoiler, not sure if I dare dreaming it is important for a underword 5b story.

Happy that Emma still the real savior, and totally fine if Rumple pull the sword.

And it does seem light toward Regina, so yeah!!

[Mathius]

Emma planning for Gold to be the one to pull out Excalibur makes PERFECT sense, actually. I've said since the S4 finale that his white heart symbolized total blankness, and now that is confirmed, he is "nothing" and thus vulnerable to influence, hence Emma's desire to fill his heart with bright redness and purity and heroism all so that he can be her pawn.

It will be hilarious if, at the last second, Gold falls prey to his old ways and becomes ineligible to pull the sword out.

November 15th will be the double episode.

So last time it was 4x08, now it's 5x08.

This screws up their plans for 4B's premiere as the 100th episode, now it'll be the 4A finale.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Mathius

[OnceUponAJen]

OK, what? They are casting Hook's father? Are we finally getting some things we really want?!

[SiobhanJW]

Emma planning for Gold to be the one to pull out Excalibur makes PERFECT sense, actually. I've said since the S4 finale that his white heart symbolized total blankness, and now that is confirmed, he is "nothing" and thus vulnerable to influence, hence Emma's desire to fill his heart with bright redness and purity and heroism all so that he can be her pawn.

It will be hilarious if, at the last second, Gold falls prey to his old ways and becomes ineligible to pull the sword out.

So last time it was 4x08, now it's 5x08.

This screws up their plans for 4B's premiere as the 100th episode, now it'll be the 4A finale.

I don't think it'll screw it up. I tnink they just count it as one big episode?

[Hookian]

This is all good and so painful.

 

Hook and Regina are gonna team up, something goes wrong and Hook dies. 5B will have them all going to save him from The Underworld with Emma leading the cause(obviously)

 

It's basically gonna be a retelling of the Eurydice and Orpheus story and I cannot wait. I love Greek Mythology so much. Bring on Hades and Davey Jones(Killian's father).

[RadioGirl27]

Really, people, A&E are not going to give Emma both arcs this season and they are NOT going to give Hook a whole arc.

I think 5B is going to be "Save Regina" more than "Save Hook". It looks like the half season finale is a Hook/Regina centric. If they really are doing the underworld, I think there are more chances that Regina is the one dragged to the underworld and all of them go there to save her.

Davy Jones can still be Hook's father and the big villain.

Edited October 10, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[kili]

If they really are doing the underworld, I think there are more chances that Regina is the one dragged to the underworld and all of them go there to save her.

 

Why are they trecking to the Underworld to save Regina or Hook or whoever? They've killed of characters before. If one could travel to the underwold, wouldn't Rumple have already tried that to get Bae back? The dude plotted for 300 years to get his son back, he wouldn't let death stop him unless that was that.

 

I just really hope there is no bringing people back from the dead because then we'd have to go get back everybody who died. And it will ruin any tension in the future - nobody could ever die again.

 

Plus, the CGI they would have to do for the Underwold would be horribly bad and I can't watch that for weeks on end.

[Mari]

Would it have to be the literal underworld? 

 

Because if Regina ended up under a sleeping curse, and then kidnapped by Zelena, they would still have to launch an expedition to rescue her, but it would't be literal "Hell."

 

Or, since they've established there's lots of story lands out there, maybe it's like a "Hell dimension" on BtVS--not literal, afterlife hell, but a horrible, hellish realm.

[Shanna Marie]

They've killed of characters before. If one could travel to the underwold, wouldn't Rumple have already tried that to get Bae back?

There may be a difference between being really killed and being dragged alive into the underworld as some kind of price or payment, like it seemed was going to happen to Robin. So all those other cases were regular dead vs. being dragged/ferried into the realm of the dead.

[retrograde]

I'm definitely intrigued by the "hell" thing -- it could definitely be an in for Greek mythology stuff/Hercules. 

 

 

But I don't think it is necessarily literal -- wasn't the whole joke of Storybrooke that living in small-town Maine was basically a cruel purgatory?

[ABitOFluff]

Well, regarding the CS stuff coming up, I can only say, "Ouch, my heart". But I have hope (your words, writers) that it's still true love. I have to say, while I don't like relationship angst as a rule, I prefer it over boredom. So, they got me there.

 

As far as exploring Hell, it's funny because for the past year I've been working on a story dealing with a protagonist from Hell. My idea of Hell and the Underworld is an amalgam of various theologies and personal hells, though. But, I'd be on board with Once doing the Greek mythology of the Underworld..

[HoodlumSheep]

Yay for baby Hook! Yay for daddy Jones! I hope we get to see a young(er) Liam too, even though I still think Liam is a good 10 yrs older.

I'm all for the greek/underworld theme. So I guess Colin is finally getting his wish for working more with Sean. Not too excited with a Hook/regina team up. I prefer them separated so she can't ruin his character, but I suppose I'll be okay if they handle it right.

[Rumsy4]

I have to say, while I don't like relationship angst as a rule, I prefer it over boredom. So, they got me there.

 

Word. 

 

Really, people, A&E are not going to give Emma both arcs this season and they are NOT going to give Hook a whole arc.

...If they really are doing the underworld, I think there are more chances that Regina is the one dragged to the underworld and all of them go there to save her.

 

Have to agree. The "B" arcs are typically centered around Regina (more than usual, that is). I just hope it's not as dumb as Operation Stupid.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Rumsy4

[KAOS Agent]

I don't even think the A arc is an Emma arc. They're using Dark Emma to drive other characters' stories. Since we're not dealing with Real!Emma, it's hard to have a focus on her. I'm sure she'll come through for herself in the end, but don't be fooled that this is an Emma arc. I don't think they even have an Emma-centric episode.

 

I am not at all interested in the Zelena baby and I'm really, really surprised that this is an active storyline at all in the first part of the season. Hell, most people hate this storyline - it's one that pretty much unifies the fandom in its dislike - so I have a very hard time with the idea that this is going to drive the B season. 

 

Also, I expect Emma to die in this arc in some manner, but no one is going to the Underworld to save anyone. The A arc is already all about "saving" someone. Making the B arc a repeat of that is too much even for these writers.

[Hookian]

Here's my reasoning, if the mid season finale is the Hook and Regina team up and also the Hook background episode then that means the mid season finale is focused on Hook. Why would you focus on Hook's backstory with his father if it was just gonna be a one episode thing, no less the mid season finale? So my theory is Hook's father is introduced in this episode but he will play a big role in S5B.

 

If Hook's dad is Davey Jones it makes perfect sense. Davey is immortal so he's clearly still alive to this day, so that just demands screentime for the father and son which likely have a very strained relationship.

 

Also I think the reason why they're giving us this Hook/Regina team up is so that when Hook "dies", Regina will assure Emma that they will go and save him much like Emma told Regina the same thing about Robin and her happy ending in the last mid season finale. Emma and the others will go the Underworld to save Hook. This episode will kind of make Regina team "Captain Swan" IMO.

 

We already know thanks to the article with Leanne that Hook's background is gonna be explored a lot in 5B and in 5A his father and brother will  be brought up but it won't be dived into till 5B. Makes sense especially if this is the arc they're gonna do. 

 

Hook sacrifices himself for Emma and then the others with Emma leading will go the underworld to save him.  The only reason you introduce a character in the mid season finale is if they're gonna play a heavy role in the upcoming arc. So yeah that's why I think the Underworld is coming, Hook's father Davey Jones is coming and will play a big part in 5B saving his son with Emma and the others and Hades will be the big bad and the Nevengers will have to do battle with a God.

 

I love Greek mythology so I am all for this happening. They're gonna Orpheus and Eurydice the crap out of Captain Swan.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Hookian

[OnceUponAJen]

Since they gave us a glimpse of Charon last episode, I can see Hades upcoming. I wonder if there will be Cerberus as well? I'd like to see that, as long as the CGI isn't too awful. There's also the fact that noone has paid for Robin's life yet. I hope that little hand holding session in the last ep didn't truly count as "a life for a life." I can't see the Underworld giving up that easily.

Edited October 10, 2015 by OnceUponAJen

[kitticup]

WOW.

That hypocrisy from Regina had BETTER have been intentional on the writers' parts, or else they are officially delusional to a terrifying degree.

I completely agree. I am not a table flipper and don't that worked up by the show's warped morality. But this scene takes the cake, This is truly the first time I really wanted to flip the table. i have always disliked zelena. I don't like her on my screen , but between the two wacked out sisters, I side with Wicked.

The Mills women have serious issues.

The writers have to know that Regina is a hypocrite. On Deep Space 9, the writers were so troubled by fans that defended Dukat, they made it a point to show what an evil,man he was. They have to set Regina up for the same thing.

[Rumsy4]

This theory is probably because I'm reading a Hades/Persephone retelling right now, but with A&E's predilection for female villains, I throw in Persephone as the major villain of 5B. The Queen of the Underworld seeks vengeance for having been cheated out of a soul. 

[OnceUponAJen]

This theory is probably because I'm reading a Hades/Persephone retelling right now, but with A&E's predilection for female villains, I throw in Persephone as the major villain of 5B. The Queen of the Underworld seeks vengeance for having been cheated out of a soul.

I love Hades/Persephone! All this talk is making me want to read Greek mythology.

[PixiePaws1]

Abandon all hope ye who enter here. ....

Maybe I am just having a really depressing day but after reading the recap of 5x03 I have let go of the last hope I had that Emma isn't all dark. I fully endorse her setting up Rumple because knowing that Mr Carlyle has no interest in playing a redeemed Rumple...then Rumple will probably double cross her somehow but not for the benefit of saving Emma.

Still don't think she cast the curse because Henry is still alive. I do think it was cast with part of the intent of getting the Dark One out of Camelot. And likely to separate her from Excalibur..but she's managed to filch it anyway.

Her manipulation of Killian is abhorrent on every level. I can't believe an Emma with any smidgen of light left in her would do this for any reason. Someone is most definitely going to sacrifice themselves to save Emma...and they might surprise us and have it be Henry (yeah, dead Henry. ..I can certainly get behind that). They already did 'Save Henry' but not sure they're original enough to notice anyone going to the Underworld to save him is a repeat...

and if that article is true of Emma shortly crushing somone's heart. This means she will now be a willful murderer (Cruella died to save Henry) because as the DO she doesn't actually have to kill anyone she can always use non lethal magic to stop / atrack someone. Then she is definitely gone darkside and they are just destroying Emma. I HATE this soooooo much... maybe that's what happens to Violet ..jealous Emma...?.

I will be over here...curled in the fetal position sobbing "I'll be ok" on repeat. .

Edited October 10, 2015 by PixiePaws1

[regularlyleaded]

I read through the NYCC spoilers, episode summaries, and viewed some clips people posted of 5x03.

(Disclaimer: No, I personally haven’t seen the entire episode and it would be far more reasonable to withhold judgement until I did see it, but you know what? I don’t care. From what I’ve read it’s a big Charming/Arthur Bromance episode and I couldn’t care less about them. I don’t care about Charming trying to be a big, damn hero. I have zero fucks to give. According to all reports, Emma’s scenes are but a few minutes here and there, so I will happily get those off youtube and save myself the frustration of seeing all the other stuff. Plus, somewhere along the way, the little enjoyment I get from this show started coming from judging it so I’m going to be Judgey McJudgerson all over the place here. You’ve been warned.)

My first impression of the episode:
(Camelot) David, get your head out of your ass. When your daughter’s life is at stake, that is not the time to be a glory hound.

Arthur is being duplicitous (most of us were calling him shady already, so yay! us), but he makes David a Knight of The Round Table for what exactly? Failing? David fails on his quest to get the toadstool (or whatever the MacGuffin was) but Arthur gives David the Siege Perilous as if it were a participation award? “A” for effort, David, here’s your knighthood? Oh, FFS. Charming is so obsessed with wanting to be a hero, eyes glazed over with the delusions of grandeur that Arthur is bringing to fruition, that David didn’t even notice that Arthur is being shady, did he. Arthur is going to be the Pan to David’s Henry, isn’t he. They are going to turn David into Arthur’s chump (*SMH*). David, you. idiot.

….Emma never stood a chance if this is what these idiots call “helping” her to fight the darkness. I’m with KAOS Agent, I think Emma saves herself (and then dies. Because I think the writers are setting it up for her to die in some way, shape or form before this arc is done).

 

Surrounded by incompetent fools, Emma’s only choice will have to be to save herself. :-P But seriously, in the interview with EW prior to the panel, Jennifer said that the fairy-tale inspiration that she's been working from for Emma's struggle with the darkness is a story called "The Queen and The Murderer" wherein the "heroine" of the story has to save herself by facing and killing a murderer (the darkness) that's been chasing her for her entire life. (Here's a tumblr post with the interview gifs). Based on this alone, I would argue that this arc more than likely ends with Emma choosing the light and saving herself from the darkness.

 

More from NYCC - The Hollywood Reporter had this from the OUAT panel:
 

As the show explores Dark Swan, Emma's savior status is still intact; it's just ... complicated. "Emma is still the savior," Morrison explained. "It's not that she's not Emma. She's the savior with darkness in her. Emma is a constant [cauldron] of conflict. She's in a constant conflict with dark and light ... [and sometimes] doing things for the right reasons but doing it in a dark way.”

*Jumps into wishful thinking pool*
 
I’m going to jump head first into the wishful thinking pool and say, based on these remarks by Jennifer, that Dark Swan’s goal is to actually get rid of the darkness, once and for all. I’m going to headcanon that what Jennifer is saying is that what Emma is is the Dark Savior.

Hear me out here: (Let’s assume) The ultimate goal for “The Savior” is to save people, to work for the greater good, and to attempt to do so using the good guys' guidebook. And according to Jennifer, Emma is still The Savior (someone who is working for the greater good), except now Emma has been soaked in darkness. So (to me) it means that while the darkness is coloring Emma’s (The Savior’s) methods, it hasn’t changed her motives and goals (she’s still working towards the greater good). And lo, Emma’s the Dark Savior.

Putting Dark Savior into context explains why Dark Emma’s willing to manipulate Hook’s to get what she needs (in this case, that’s to get the sword to reawaken Rumpel). She’s using manipulative means, but (after having immersed myself in the pool of wishful thinking) I think that in Dark Emma's head it's okay because she's doing so for the greater good. According to the NYCC panel spoilers, Emma really is heartbroken when Hook rejects her and tells her that “He loved her” (emphasis on the past tense). So while she’s manipulating him, her love for him is very real and still there, so she’s not completely heartless (or fully consumed by darkness, or whatever this show is calling it) and isn’t trying to hurt Hook for the fun of it.

Some speculation: If Hook is rejecting Dark Emma in 5x03 and pushing her away (in hopes of getting the Emma he loves back), and at the same time, Emma truly considers herself a new dark being such that she perceives Hook’s rejection of Dark Swan as a rejection of her whole being, then Dark Emma will probably stay away from him after 5x03. According to this person who saw the episode and panel, after Emma asks Hook if he loves her and says that if he doesn't she'll let him go and Hook responds that “He loved her” (again, past tense), Emma looks completely heartbroken and replies “The ship is yours” and disappears. Which perhaps explains why Hook’s going so far as jumping off buildings to get her attention in recent filming spoilers.

Also, the way Dark Flubber comes off right now isn’t merely like a devil sitting on Emma’s shoulder, whispering in her ear. It’s also something of an entity that has it’s own knowledge, voice, motives and can at times control Emma against her wishes. Again, possible wishful thinking here, but even though Dark Flubber/Earworm Rumpel wants Emma to get Excalibur loose and reunite it with the dagger to extinguish the light, I’m going to subscribe to the theory that Emma’s going along with Earworm Rumpel because she figures that if Excalibur can extinguish light, then maybe she can turn that process on it’s head and extinguish the darkness instead.

If Dark Swan’s ultimate goal isn’t to get rid of the darkness then I don’t know understand what Jennifer is getting at by saying Emma is still the savior but with darkness (or maybe I'm just being obtuse). I'd like to think Jennifer's trying to make a point here about Emma not being a muahahahaha villain and that she has some greater purpose in mind. Her comments also fit in with the previous remarks in other interview that everything is not as it seems, so...

*Exits the wishful thinking pool and returns to reality where wishful thinking comes to die, and….where hope is still dead*

Edited October 10, 2015 by regularlyleaded

[regularlyleaded]

[...] and if that article is true of Emma shortly crushing somone's heart. This means she will now be a willful murderer [...]

If it helps, according to the panel reports I've read, they never said Emma crushed someone's heart. Apparently,  that was EW's misunderstanding and they put it into the article. According to other reports from people there (here's one) what was actually said is that "someone's heart was crushed to cast the curse." It was never said to be Emma nor did they even confirm that Emma cast the curse.

 

Her manipulation of Killian is abhorrent on every level.

Also, according to other people that saw the episode, Emma's not being as duplicitous as that sneak peek makes it appear. She's being genuine about her feelings for him. She's not toying with him for grins. Yes, she needs to get the sword from him, but she also does love him. In Dark Emma's mind she's doesn't really understand why her becoming this new (darker) person would change their relationship. IMO, it's tragic to see how much Dark Flubber has frelled with Emma's mind that she's thinking this way. I feel bad for both Emma and Hook here.

 

ETA: Sorry for the double post. I thought I was editing my previous post....but I guess not.

Edited October 10, 2015 by regularlyleaded

[PixiePaws1]

Thank you for trying to give me some light in MY darkness....

I hear (read?) What you're saying. I guess Emma knowing what the past DO put Killian through...Emma is verging on insane thinking he's ever going to just accept her this way.

Edited October 10, 2015 by PixiePaws1

[KAOS Agent]

I still need to know what Emma's ultimate goal is in order to really get on board with her manipulating anyone she loves. It does sound like Emma is accepting that Hook can't love her as she is and is now walking away. The last episode had Emma saying there is no good her or bad her, there's just Emma. They also had her try True Love's Kiss and found it to not work. At that point, Emma was stuck realizing that there's no going back because their love wasn't enough to defeat the Darkness. Hook is doing the right thing by rejecting Emma, but he's doing it in such a way that he is at cross purposes with her. He thinks he can bring back the woman he loves by forcing her to fight for him by going back to the person she was, while she fully believes that that woman doesn't exist and can't be brought back, so there's no point in going any further. What makes this truly sad is that once the Darkness is gone, Emma would still be stuck with the notion that Hook doesn't/can't love her for who she is and lead to another option for the fall finale where Emma walks away from Storybrooke. Cue time jump to Zelena being ready to give birth.

 

I realize this show usually goes for more hopeful endings, so they'll probably be more positive and have Captain Swan in each other's arms (possibly only to be pulled apart to set up 5B), but the reality of Hook telling Emma that he loved the other her really can't be glossed over because truthfully, Emma will never be who she was prior to taking on the Darkness. The same idea holds true for Belle & Rumpel.

[PixiePaws1]

Oh KAOS Agent...if that is true they just destroyed CS ....all that work they put in to build this beautiful supportive relationship just trampled in the dirt along with my broken shipper heart.

Maybe they will fall in love again on a more balanced footing....he was always so much more invested. But to see something so selfless as the love Killian had for Emma be treated so shabbily. ..and you know the writers will gloss over it because no time for in depth examination of the aftermath of what DS has done 'cos Regina needs her ingrown toenail to take center stage...

I may be coming across as prematurely bitter...hmmm...maybe I should wait and see, huh?

Edited October 10, 2015 by PixiePaws1

[chrisvee]

I don't see Hook saying he doesn't love Dark!Emma to be a big sign about the ultimate demise of their relationship. Emma didn't love Hook until he reformed and I certainly don't want a situation here where Hook has the same delusions about Emma as Belle does about Rumple. I think Emma and Hook would have more problems when she's de-darkened if he did allow himself to be manipulated by her.

I'm not surprised Dark!Emma still loves Hook -- I don't doubt Rumple loves Belle. But the darkness makes it a selfish love that isn't good for the object of it.

When Emma is de-darkened, Hook will be there for her the way she was there for him in his journey to redemption.

Regarding the Underworld speculation, rather than bringing someone totally back from the dead we could get a Persephone or Will Turner type situation that's an exception, so it isn't a continual trip to Hades to revive dead people ad infinitum.

[FierceAfroChick]

I don't know how to feel about this.  I'm kind of pissed at Hook, because you don't just stop loving someone because they've got darkness in them that they can't control.  And if anyone should know what it is to struggle with darkness you can't control, it's him.  How would he have felt if she tossed him aside after all that crap he did when he was under Rumple's control?  Hell, Gold didn't even have his heart when he helped trap the Apprentice in that hat.  Fuck this Dark curse shit, it's still Emma.  I always thought the darkness was a curse, not a person who just took over Emma's body.  For Hook to go all, "I loved you", makes me wanna gut him. Seriously, where would your ass be if Emma stopped loving you because you did some shady shit that you couldn't control?  At the most, his response should've been, "I love you, but I can't be with you when you're like this."  Pretty muthafucka.  

 

Okay...okay...I'll be alright.  Emma's my girl though, I love her more than I did Lorelai Gilmore and Blair Cramer and just a little less than I love Foxy Brown and Peta Wilson's Nikita.  I don't like Hook's kicking her to the curb when there's no evidence that she's done anything nearly as evil as him or Regina.  If she does go a few episodes ignoring his ass, I'm on board.  #TeamEmma

 

ETA:  I guess I do know how to feel about this...LOL.  My babies!  Their angst is gonna kill me.

Edited October 10, 2015 by FierceAfroChick

[KingOfHearts]

Hook is doing the right thing, imo. It's not that he's stopped loving her, but he knows engaging the darkness will only make her dip into it further. It's tough love. I would be side-eyeing him if he was taking advantage of her openness.

[Rumsy4]

Hook is angry and hurt, and knows that Emma has been trying to manipulate him. This Emma is under the influence of a powerful Darkness, and Hook has known what that Darkness is capable of. It cost him his love and his limb. To see Emma given over willingly to that same Darkness, and behaving in the same manipulative way he's seen Rumple behave has got to be devastating. Of course he still loves Emma, but in that moment, all he can see is the Dark One, because that's how Dark Emma is behaving. She is behaving like Rumple. The last thing Emma needs is coddling right now. She needs to hear some home-truths.

No matter what she herself believes, Emma is not fully herself. The Darkness within her is influencing her powerfully. The writers have literally manifested that Darkness to show it goading Emma's actions. She doesn't have an entity inhabiting her, but the Darkness is influencing her actions like some mind-altering drug. So, no. I have to disagree that Emma is still Emma. And good for Hook to not enable her self-deception.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Rumsy4

[FierceAfroChick]

Hook is doing the right thing, imo. It's not that he's stopped loving her, but he knows engaging the darkness will only make her dip into it further. It's tough love. I would be side-eyeing him if he was taking advantage of her openness.

 

I have to see the scenes in context, but whatever he's trying to do, I think there's a better way to go about it.  You don't have to break her heart to avoid engaging the darkness.  "I love you, but I won't let you manipulate me."  Wouldn't it be better to give her something to hold onto instead of sending her further into the darkness?  I'm interested in seeing how Emma deals with that once she's free of the curse.

Edited October 10, 2015 by FierceAfroChick

[Mathius]

Using the past tense "loved" doesn't mean Hook actually doesn't love her now, it means that he's smart enough not to answer "yes, I love you" or anything close to that or else Emma will use it to manipulate him further without hesitation. He apparently makes a dead-on comparison to Rumbelle: Emma points out that Belle still loved Rumple and was in a relationship with him while he was the Dark One, and Hook immediately counters that this did nothing to stop Rumple from being a murderer and darkening his heart further, and that it only truly resulted in pain for Belle. He's not playing that game, as long as Emma is the Dark One he'll be focused on saving her from the darkness, not on enabling it with his love.

[Serena]

Using the past tense "loved" doesn't mean Hook actually doesn't love her now, it means that he's smart enough not to answer "yes, I love you" or anything close to that or else Emma will use it to manipulate him further without hesitation. He apparently makes a dead-on comparison to Rumbelle: Emma points out that Belle still loved Rumple and was in a relationship with him while he was the Dark One, and Hook immediately counters that this did nothing to stop Rumple from being a murderer and darkening his heart further, and that it only truly resulted in pain for Belle. He's not playing that game, as long as Emma is the Dark One he'll be focused on saving her from the darkness, not on enabling it with his love.

This! And if he makes the Belle comparison, then that's just perfect. Being an enabler does nothing to help her.

[FierceAfroChick]

Yeah, I hear your arguments, but it doesn't make me feel better.  Between the Charmings being all about Regina and Bromance trips and going to festivals and Hook playing the IUsedToLoveYou game (again, he doesn't have to be with her or enable her, just don't tell her you don't love her anymore which is what he basically did) I'm not feeling good with the way Emma's loved ones are going about saving her.  Until I see better effort, I'm going to be pissed.    

[mjgchick]

Hook is basically in love with a drug attic at the moment. He's doing the right thing in not enabling her. Enabling her only makes things worse. This is him trying to get her to go to rehab, AA meetings. Him saying "loved" in the past tense doesn't mean he no longer loves her and real Emma would understand that. This is not Emma. This Emma sounds delusional in a way. She thinks her loved ones should accept this person but then she manipulates them into doing her bidding. She's hiding stuff from them and making comment like they hurt her but these dumb asses don't know anything at the moment.

[Shanna Marie]

On the "Hook's dad is Davy Jones/some kind of Death-related figure" speculation, that might explain some of his "survivor" trait if he's got a father with that kind of power refusing to let him be killed. I guess poor Liam might contradict that, but that could tie in with the speculation of Liam and Killian not being biologically related, or maybe Dear Old Death Dad was so shocked and in pain at the death of his eldest son that he's become overprotective of his baby boy.

 

Though I don't know that introducing a character near the end of an arc necessarily means anything in terms of furthering the arc. For all we know, the flashback will just explain or parallel one thing that Hook does and not really matter going forward. There have been way too many characters introduced in flashbacks who ended up not mattering much. Like Belle's mother. Real Marian. Aurora's father. Two thirds of the Queens of Darkness (they were present, but the arc wasn't really about them). Blackbeard keeps popping up but has nothing to do with the focus of the arcs.

[mjgchick]

Only on this show where the 100th episode isn't even the 100th episode. I'm so confused about how they are doing these episode numbers.

[FierceAfroChick]

I'm really not getting how loved equals "I still love you", but I'm going to leave this alone for now and see how it all plays out.

 

On the "Hook's dad is Davy Jones/some kind of Death-related figure" speculation, that might explain some of his "survivor" trait if he's got a father with that kind of power refusing to let him be killed. I guess poor Liam might contradict that, but that could tie in with the speculation of Liam and Killian not being biologically related, or maybe Dear Old Death Dad was so shocked and in pain at the death of his eldest son that he's become overprotective of his baby boy.

 

I've been wondering whether Hook is the product of their mother's second marriage and Liam the product of a first, which could explain them having different fathers and a large age gap.

[Rumsy4]

In a way, I'm excited for the Hook/Regina episode. It's time Hook got an episode with a main character other than Emma. The last time this happened was in 3A with Charming. After that, he's been paired with non-regulars/guests like Elsa, Ariel and Ursula (apart from the dreadful Rumple/Hook 4A scenes). I liked those episodes, but the Hook/Regina dynamic has always been interesting. I don't think the writers will turn Hook into another Regina-zombie. They love the conflict (and fanning the fan-frenzy of opposite camps) way too much. So what if Hook's flashback is in this episode? We've got random Evil Queen/Woegina flashbacks in non-Regina centric episodes in the past. 

[formerlyfreedom]

This is your regularly scheduled mod note to remind you; this is the spot for SPOILER DISCUSSION. Speculation belongs in Speculation topic.

 

Thank you.

 

Why, what large eyes you have, Granny!

 

 

 

[RadioGirl27]

Hook is doing the right thing, imo. It's not that he's stopped loving her, but he knows engaging the darkness will only make her dip into it further. It's tough love. I would be side-eyeing him if he was taking advantage of her openness.

Yeah, this. I'm Team Hook in this and I'm really happy (and a bit surprised) that they are going this route and not the "let's go dark together" route that I was fearing. Of course it's painful, but it's the best option. And really, we can't criticize the way Belle has been handling her relationship with Rumple and then ask Hook to act the same way she does just because he is Emma's boyfriend.

[regularlyleaded]

Being an enabler does nothing to help her.

And neither does all out rejecting her.

 

I realize it’s not exactly what Hook was doing, and I feel for the guy because he’s in a tough spot and I know that he just wants to help Emma, but that’s not how Dark Emma is taking it. Hook’s way of rejecting her doesn’t take into account Dark Emma’s mindset and I think that’s the problem. To be clear, I think Hook is doing the right thing by not enabling Dark Emma, but I also think his way of doing so isn’t helping his cause.

Hook rejects Dark Emma because he knows Belle loving DO Rumpel didn’t stop him from being evil. And that’s absolutely a good point that Hook makes. But, there’s a big difference between Belle & DO Rumpel’s situation and Hook & Dark Emma’s and that’s that Rumpel knew he had a choice. Belle fell in love with Rumpel, and she tried to break him free of the Dark One using True Love’s Kiss and it was working. But, Rumpel consciously stopped it. So all this time, Rumpel knew he had a way out from from the darkness. He knew all this time that if he was willing to let go, he could be free of the darkness, and still knowing that, Rumpel chose to remain the dark one. And that’s the big difference between their situations — Dark Emma doesn’t know she has an out. As far as Dark Emma knows, her only choice is to be this person. There’s no TLK waiting in the wings to cure her.

As far as we know right now, Emma spent six weeks in Camelot trying to fight off the darkness. She didn’t embrace it right off the bat, but tried getting rid of it. Emma even tried the nuclear option, True Love’s Kiss, to break free from the darkness and it didn’t work. It’s not like Rumpel who said “no, thanks” to TLK breaking the curse and let the darkness reassert itself. Emma tried to TLK Hook and it had zero effect. And Hook himself tried TLK, and again, it still didn’t work. So in Dark Emma’s mind, this is who she is for good. There’s no out for her. There’s no more old Emma. So because of that I don’t think Hook’s rejection of Dark Emma will help his cause, and really, it's possibly going to actively work against him.

What little reason Dark Emma had to not kill the light because she thought Hook might still love her, is gone. So if anything, Hook’s rejection has possibly pushed her further towards embracing Earworm Rumpel’s plans of extinguishing the light for good. If it’s true that love is what keeps the dark ones from total power, and Dark Emma doesn’t think that love exists for her now, then there’s nothing holding her back from going through with Earworm Rumpel’s plans.

This is where I also circle back to needing to know what the heck Dark Emma’s real intentions are here. Is her ultimate goal good or bad? (UGH. It’s hard to understand the characters motivations when we’re being purposefully deprived of information, and I hate that the writers are doling this just for the sake of drama. It’s annoying! Unless you’re writing a murder mystery novel, I don’t think character motivations should be a mystery from the audience because it feels like a cheap trick to create drama.)

With that said, no matter if Dark Emma’s ultimate plans are for good or evil, I honestly think Dark Emma doesn’t think she has a choice but to be Dark Emma. We saw she tried getting rid of the darkness, nuclear option and all, so I think she believes (and we’re supposed to agree) that her situation, as it is now, is without solution. If that’s true (and assuming Merlin didn’t tell her about another way to get rid of the darkness inside her) then Emma’s only out from the darkness is death. And that’s basically why I think Emma is being setup to die in this arc. It’s just a matter of the events that lead up to her “death” unfolding in real time.

Either Dark Emma is acting as The Dark Savior and her plans are to help the greater good and she’s planning her own death so she can take the darkness with her, or her plans are evil but at the last minute she chooses to sacrifice herself (again) to everyone from the darkness in her (because I don't believe for one minute that the writers will leave Emma as Dark Swan forever. I mean, talk about most depressing fairy-tale ever!). Either way Emma's sacrifice and her death is what saves her.

 

When Emma initially made the sacrifice to take on the darkness at the end of s4, she did so in hopes that she could be freed from it. Though that sacrifice on her part was big (and I still don't like that being selfless made her evil), there's now an even bigger sacrifice that she'll (possibly) be faced with and that's choosing her own death to save everyone else. This is Emma's throwing herself on the grenade absolutely knowing it will kill her moment. But in choosing to die and choosing to take the darkness with her to save everyone, she also saves herself.

 

I'm Team Emma AND Hook. But if push comes to shove (and I don't think it's going to come to that) I'm Team Emma. Emma got into this situation because she was trying to save people and her descent into darkness continues to be caused by her still trying to save people. I can't (and won't) hate her for that, but believe me I hate the writing for it. Months laters and I still can't believe that doing good things -- saving people's lives -- is what's making Emma more evil. *SMH*. It's completely ridiculous to me that Emma saving Robin's life is making her darker simply because she's using "dark magic". It wasn't even "dark magic" used for nefarious purposes, but just because it was "dark". It's so dumb. I hate it.

Edited October 10, 2015 by regularlyleaded

[RadioGirl27]

There’s no TLK waiting in the wings to cure her.

You are forgetting about Henry, just like everybody else (even the writers) is forgetting about him. Emma has a comfirmed TL in Henry. Emma trying TLK with Hook in Camelot was out of character and just there to stir up some drama among the shippers. So, until they don't show me a scene where Emma tries TLK with Henry (in Camelot or in Storybrooke) and it doesn't work, I would not believe this "Emma thinks she has no option but to be the Dark Swan", not even if the writers themselves have Emma say it.

 

 

I realize it’s not exactly what Hook was doing, and I feel for the guy because he’s in a tough spot and I know that he just wants to help Emma, but that’s not how Dark Emma is taking it.

The writers have put Hook in a lose/lose situation here. No matter what he does in relation with DS, someone is going to criticize him.

[regularlyleaded]

You are forgetting about Henry, just like everybody else (even the writers) is forgetting about him.

No, I'm not.

 

I don't think that it's that Emma and Hook aren't True Love and that's what's preventing it from working (because I think they are True Loves) and I don't think the show is trying to say they aren't True Love. I think the way the writers are trying to sell the True Love's Kiss failure is because Emma's situation as the Dark One is different from all the other one's before, so True Love Kiss won't work for Emma, period.

 

What I think the writers are going for (and if it is they aren't explaining it very well, shocker -__-) is that for whatever reason, Emma could kiss Hook and Henry all day, and even though Henry is a confirmed True Love, True Love's kiss won't work and break Emma free from darkness. It's simply not a viable option for her.

 

A possible reason as to why TLK won't work to free Emma from the darkness is because Emma became attached to The Dark One by doing something selfless, sacrificing herself for her loved ones, and essentially executing an act of love. In Emma's case, an act of love made her The Dark One. All the other Dark One's that we know of got to be Dark One's through murder, but that's not the case for Emma and that perhaps has changed the rules of how she can get out of this.

 

Yes, I could be wrong. We're only into episode 3 and still have yet to hear Merlin's take on this or hear what he says to Emma about being the Dark one. But as of right now, I think that's why Henry isn't an option for a TLK either. It's not about her not having True Love's, but simply that it won't work in her case.

Edited October 10, 2015 by regularlyleaded

[didia]

I will wait and see, but I don't think it's all doom and gloom. Doesn't matter what he says, we know he loves her, he told Belle last episode. It seems a little harsh to say he "loved" her, but I will reserve judgment until I see it. He is doing what he thinks is right, maybe he is wrong, but he is not perfect.

 

"The writers have put Hook in a lose/lose situation here. No matter what he does in relation with DS, someone is going to criticize him."

 

Exactly! If he gives in to the dark swan, SQ, ST fans and whoever hates Hook will call him a rapist, if he doesn't, he doesn't love her enough, because he can't accept her dark parts, so they will say his love isn't as pure as Belle's. 

 

I'm not worried, we have spoilers with Hook and Dark Swan holding hands, they will figure this out.

•  

[PixiePaws1]

Hook is angry and hurt, and knows that Emma has been trying to manipulate him. This Emma is under the influence of a powerful Darkness, and Hook has known what that Darkness is capable of. It cost him his love and his limb. To see Emma given over willingly to that same Darkness, and behaving in the same manipulative way he's seen Rumple behave has got to be devastating. Of course he still loves Emma, but in that moment, all he can see is the Dark One, because that's how Dark Emma is behaving. She is behaving like Rumple. The last thing Emma needs is coddling right now. She needs to hear some home-truths.

No matter what she herself believes, Emma is not fully herself. The Darkness within her is influencing her powerfully. The writers have literally manifested that Darkness to show it goading Emma's actions. She doesn't have an entity inhabiting her, but the Darkness is influencing her actions like some mind-altering drug. So, no. I have to disagree that Emma is still Emma. And good for Hook to not enable her self-deception.

This!!!

Is there a better way for Killian to handle this scenario? ..possibly. ..but at the heart of all this...he is just a man,flawed like all of us are, in love with a woman with everything he has in him. He's not Freud or 'All seeing' or 'All powerful' and in his gut he always struggles with the belief that he even deserves his own HEA.But he was there when one of the last things 'his' Emma said was that she believed they could get the darkness out of her and in what seems to him like the blink of an eye, he went from having hope and her on his arm and smiling and looking like herself to this cold angry apparently revenge driven thing AND she is telling him she LIKES it!

I seriously don't know how he is still standing. How much can one soul take? I am guessing all the anti-CS groups will be rubbing their hands in glee and claiming he was never worthy of her if he can't love her like this...

but he is just a guy who loves a girl....and right now she is an incarnation of the thing the pretty much destroyed him. The guy's a total wreck...and he certainly isn't perfect ....he usually knows the right thing to say to Emma but he can't be right all the time ...nobody is...

This situation is all kinds of wrong and pain...and things are going to be said in response to that add to that because the emotions involved are so, so strong.

Edited October 10, 2015 by PixiePaws1

[Lieutenant]

Putting this here since it's got a bit of a spoilery gif in it. I think this post PERFECTLY sums up why most of us just can't with Regina any more.  

[Rumsy4]

I realize it’s not exactly what Hook was doing, and I feel for the guy because he’s in a tough spot and I know that he just wants to help Emma, but that’s not how Dark Emma is taking it. Hook’s way of rejecting her doesn’t take into account Dark Emma’s mindset and I think that’s the problem.

Hook doesn't remember what happened in Camelot. When he sincerely tried to get Emma to tell him, she wouldn't (or couldn't). In addition, she's playing with his emotions and trying to manipulate him. He is completely in the dark, and Emma has given him no reason to trust her. So, I don't blame him for being blunt, nor for refusing to be with the Dark One.

When Emma kept making cutting remarks to Hook in 3B, people were saying Emma had no obligation to be nice to Hook, and that Hook was a big boy. The same way, Dark Swan is not some delicate plant. She can take it. It looks like Emma completely backs off from Hook after this, while he works with Belle and the others to find ways to save Emma. However, it seems like he and Emma are reunited after he literally throws himself off a roof to get her attention. I suspect Hook will have regained his memories by that point.

What little reason Dark Emma had to not kill the light because she thought Hook might still love her, is gone

Well, at this stage, it already is too late for Emma. She is the Dark One. Neither Belle nor Neal could change Rumple's Dark One mindset. Rumple "behaved" when Neal was tough with him, but nothing fundamental changed. Emma still has Henry, even if she thinks Hook doesn't love her anymore. According to Emma, Henry didn't let her down in Camelot, but she's still going to be manipulating him in Episode 5. 

It's unfair to blame Hook's reactions for Emma's choices, even if she is under the influence of Clippy!Rumple. She didn't decide to snuff out the Light (whatever that means) after her argument with Hook. She already had that goal, and mainly came to the Jolly Roger to get Hook's sword to further that goal. 

This is where I also circle back to needing to know what the heck Dark Emma’s real intentions are here. Is her ultimate goal good or bad?

Yeah--that would be good to know. It's probably going to be something for so called "right reasons". But even Rumple had "right" reasons for embracing the Darkness in the beginning. 

I can't (and won't) hate her for that, but believe me I hate the writing for it.

Neither Hook nor anyone here (afaik) is hating on Emma. It's not possible for me to hate her. But, I'm so so glad that so far, she is not getting the Rumbelle or Regal Believer treatment from either Hook or Henry.

[regularlyleaded]

It's unfair to blame Hook's reactions for Emma's choices, even if she is under the influence of Clippy!Rumple.

 

I think people are taking my comments the wrong way.

 

I'm not hating on Hook and I wasn't trying to blame Hook for Dark Emma's actions or reactions. My point (that apparently wasn't clear) was that even though Hook's intentions are to help Emma, to drive the darkness out because he does love her, that his very good intentions, born out of love, can have unintended consequences that don't help his cause. And I think that's true for anything and anyone. I'm not trying to assign blame. In fact, I very clearly stated that I thought Hook was right not to enable Dark Emma. I was just pointing out that his actions could have consequences contrary to what he wanted because he doesn't quite understand what's going on, which is not his fault. It's not malicious it's just shit happens because everyone is just trying to do the best they can with the little they know.

 

So please, really, take this to heart, I'm not blaming Hook! I was making an observation about the situation and how Hook's approach could go pear shaped despite the best of intentions.

 

Neither Hook nor anyone here (afaik) is hating on Emma

I wasn't accusing anyone here of hating on Emma. It was a general statement that I was making, speaking for myself, that I would never fall into the camp of hating on Emma.

Edited October 10, 2015 by regularlyleaded

[Rumsy4]

So please, really, take this to heart, I'm not blaming on Hook! I was making an observation about the situation and how Hook's approach could go pear shaped despite the best of intentions.

Sorry for misunderstanding! :-) Looks like that's pretty much what happened in Camelot. I hope he can get through to Emma in Storybrooke.

[RadioGirl27]

Sneak Pic of Mulan, Ruby, and Merida

God, I can't care less about this three, their adventure together in the middle of the Dark Swan arc and the "Which one is Mulan's girlfriend?" that Adam seems to be playing. This is just another exemple of how easily A&E get distrated with their new (or old that seem new) toys and forget about everything else.

Edited October 10, 2015 by RadioGirl27