Ratings and Scheduling: Hail to the Gods

[shadow2008]

8 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I seriously don't think anything will save the ratings now. Not Olicity, not Laurel coming back, nothing. I think the 0.5-0.6 range is where it's at now. If they're lucky they might see a 0.7 in the finale because of all the characters coming back but I doubt it'll be higher.

Exactly. You can tell from the Live+7 numbers (down to 2.3 million people and 0.9's in A18-49) that Arrow has pissed away it's casual viewership. They can do whatever they want now. This show will never see 2 million live viewers again outside of crossover episodes. 

Edited April 12, 2017 by shadow2008

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, shadow2008 said:

Exactly. You can tell from the Live+7 numbers (down to 0.9's) that Arrow has pissed away it's casual viewership. They can do whatever they want now. This show will never see 2 million live viewers again outside of crossover episodes. 

Yeah, agreed. 

I also wonder if some viewers have realized that Arrow is better binge watched so they're just waiting until the season has aired. Wouldn't surprise me (I'm pretty much doing that myself). There are better things to watch live tbh.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Guest

[SmallScreenDiva]

39 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I seriously don't think anything will save the ratings now. Not Olicity, not Laurel coming back, nothing. I think the 0.5-0.6 range is where it's at now. If they're lucky they might see a 0.7 in the finale because of all the characters coming back but I doubt it'll be higher.

Laurel has never been a ratings draw so, no, her coming back is definitely not gonna help the ratings, whatever her fans insist. Four seasons of ratings trends have shown she has more of a negative impact. But general viewers do like Olicity (the hemorrhaging of the the ratings stopped when Arrow switched LIs) and if they cut the crap with the unnecessary drama it's possible some of those who've left might come back. Might. 

I agree, though, I think what we've seen this season is the new normal. For Arrow and the rest of the DCTV shows. 

Edited April 12, 2017 by SmallScreenDiva

[LeighAn]

Given that all the DCTV shows are down (for instance The Flashs ratings are trending generally lower then Arrow was at the same point) Im wondering if it's just saturation at this point. I mean the shows follow fairly similar formulas in terms of their story hero arc structure with the exception of maybe LOT that maybe casual/general audiences are just growing weary of the genre. 

[kismet]

3 hours ago, LeighAn said:

Given that all the DCTV shows are down (for instance The Flashs ratings are trending generally lower then Arrow was at the same point) Im wondering if it's just saturation at this point. I mean the shows follow fairly similar formulas in terms of their story hero arc structure with the exception of maybe LOT that maybe casual/general audiences are just growing weary of the genre. 

Could be on to something. Also they tend to make the same mistakes and not learn from them or their sibling show's mistakes. It might not be the genre, just the repetitive storytelling techniques. I feel like I have seen all these DCTV episodes before on previous seasons. There is nothing new about them, and even the familiar is not like good comfort food - it's just leftovers, again.

[BkWurm1]

35 minutes ago, kismet said:

Could be on to something. Also they tend to make the same mistakes and not learn from them or their sibling show's mistakes. It might not be the genre, just the repetitive storytelling techniques. I feel like I have seen all these DCTV episodes before on previous seasons. There is nothing new about them, and even the familiar is not like good comfort food - it's just leftovers, again.

Yeah, so much for all the shows being very different.  I know many people watching the Flash are annoyed by it no longer being the "fun" show (among other things).  

[shadow2008]

11 hours ago, Angel12d said:

Yeah, agreed. 

I also wonder if some viewers have realized that Arrow is better binge watched so they're just waiting until the season has aired. Wouldn't surprise me (I'm pretty much doing that myself). There are better things to watch live tbh.

That's certainly possible. LOL, I wish I had done the same. I gave up on Arrow in season 4 and came back for Lexa Doig/Talia, so you can probably guess how well this season has been working out for me. 

10 hours ago, LeighAn said:

Given that all the DCTV shows are down (for instance The Flashs ratings are trending generally lower then Arrow was at the same point) Im wondering if it's just saturation at this point. I mean the shows follow fairly similar formulas in terms of their story hero arc structure with the exception of maybe LOT that maybe casual/general audiences are just growing weary of the genre. 

I do think the CWverse has reached it's saturation point, but The Flash has been fairly stable in Live+7 post-flashpoint storyline. The only Flarrowverse shows that have been bleeding viewers throughout the season are Arrow and Supergirl. LOT is down as well, but their losses in Live+7 are still at an acceptable margin. 

6 hours ago, kismet said:

Could be on to something. Also they tend to make the same mistakes and not learn from them or their sibling show's mistakes. It might not be the genre, just the repetitive storytelling techniques. I feel like I have seen all these DCTV episodes before on previous seasons. There is nothing new about them, and even the familiar is not like good comfort food - it's just leftovers, again.

I definitely think Arrow's biggest downfall has been it's nonsensical and repetitive storytelling over the last few years. Casual viewers will actually forgive a show a lot of stupid things as long as it delivers an engaging overall plot or well-written, complex characters they are able to care and root for. Unfortunately, Arrow does neither of those things anymore. As great as Prometheus may have been, the whole storyline feels very much like a copy-paste of season 2's villain arc with Slade. Characters like Oliver, Diggle and Captain Lance seem to have been stuck in the same gear for years. Felicity's storylines generally tend to fizzle out with no lasting impact and all the other characters (new and old ones) just sit around with no inner life or storyline of their own.

BTW, I really had to roll my eyes the other day when Guggenheim said that the show isn't interested in exploring the social lives of it's characters. I don't think anyone is clamoring to see Oliver or Curtis go grocery shopping, but would it really be so bad to show the characters go out for drinks after a successful mission? We used to get these kinds of scenes fairly often in the earlier seasons and it really helped to enrich the storytelling. Without it, everything on the show feels one-dimensional and claustrophobic. 

Edited April 12, 2017 by shadow2008

[theOAfc]

6 hours ago, kismet said:

Could be on to something. Also they tend to make the same mistakes and not learn from them or their sibling show's mistakes. It might not be the genre, just the repetitive storytelling techniques. I feel like I have seen all these DCTV episodes before on previous seasons. There is nothing new about them, and even the familiar is not like good comfort food - it's just leftovers, again.

Τhere is so much good tv nowadays that watching 23 episode shows that repeat themselves every season gets tiring. Its also that there are too many of them nowadays ,too similar, so i feel like the superheros era on tv is heading to an end.

 

13 minutes ago, shadow2008 said:

BTW, I really had to roll my eyes the other day when Guggenheim said that the show isn't interested in exploring the social lives of it's characters.

I think its much more interesting seeing small dailly life moments of these characters(especially with how it will make a nice believable contrast to their night life activities) than repeating soap opera tropes each year or writing secret kid and love triangle stories, but obviously Guggie knows best. lol

Edited April 12, 2017 by theOAfc

[calliope1975]

It will be interesting to see when Black Lightning begins airing if they hit the same story beats they've hit on all the other Flarrowverse shows to the point that we can predict plot points. 

I don't watch other Berlanti shows. Did Eli Stone or Blindspot have the same plot issues?

Edited April 12, 2017 by calliope1975
Blacklist and Blindspot are not the same.

[statsgirl]

I don't know if it's so much all the shows being similar that's the problem -- NCIS has been following exactly the same playbook for 14 seasons and it's still the most watched dramatic show on TV.  I think it's a combination of audience and expectation.  For NCIS it's an expectation that it's going to be exactly the same thing every time.  When one of the show-runners started switching the bad guy from othercountries who envy the US to bad guys in the US government, much of the audience hated it.

6 hours ago, theOAfc said:

I think its much more interesting seeing small dailly life moments of these characters(especially with how it will make a nice believable contrast to their night life activities) than repeating soap opera tropes each year or writing secret kid and love triangle stories, but obviously Guggie knows best. lol

It's funny that they acknowledge that superhero comics are basically soap operas but they don't get that it's the small moments that makes you attached to the characters which is why you care when the big tropes happen.  If you don't care about the characters, the secret children or betrayals or love triangles don't matter.

The episode in s4 when Felicity made Oliver and Diggle talk and then they all went out for drinks was the kind of gold that keeps people watching.

[Morrigan2575]

46 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

It will be interesting to see when Black Lightning begins airing if they hit the same story beats they've hit on all the other Flarrowverse shows to the point that we can predict plot points. 

I don't watch other Berlanti shows. Did Eli Stone or Blindspot have the same plot issues?

Is Black Lightning a sure thing? Did they get a pilot order or a straight to series pick up?

[calliope1975]

10 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Is Black Lightning a sure thing? Did they get a pilot order or a straight to series pick up?

Good question. I thought I had read that, but maybe not. When they released that recent picture of him in costume, I think my brain jumped to the series had been picked up. If I can find anything official, I'll edit and post. 

[kismet]

55 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

It will be interesting to see when Black Lightning begins airing if they hit the same story beats they've hit on all the other Flarrowverse shows to the point that we can predict plot points. 

I don't watch other Berlanti shows. Did Eli Stone or Blindspot have the same plot issues?

I don't recall Eli Stone having any similarities to Flarrowverse, then again it was a very unique and short lived show.

I've only seen one season of Blindspot and even promos of Riverdale, I do feel like they shared heavily from the Berlanti/Flarrowverse way.

Sometimes the Flarrowverse shows & Blindspot feel like a scrub uniform advertisement. Everyone basically looks the same, is wearing the same colors just a little different on the styling. Ooh you's wearing color 1 on the top & and color 2 on botton! Or you are wearing all color 1 with color 2 piping details! Plus you all have that intense "I'm working, but having fun" grin that no one ever has unless they are posing for a photo. They are all basically are the same people wearing the same thing, but just a little differently so people might be willing to buy more than one piece or so people can pretend there is some individuality to styling- when there is not.

[tv echo]

Regarding Black Lightning, I haven't been keeping up with it - but here's what I last had. Since then, I believe that they've cast the show and started shooting the pilot, but no official time slot or series pick-up yet...

Quote

-- GB's new DC Comics series, Black Lightning, moved from Fox to The CW and got an official pilot order, thus filling the final pilot slot on The CW's roster this season. (Feb. 3, 2017 The Hollywood Reporter and Variety articles, page 253 of Mind Your Surroundings thread)
-- If Black Lightning is greenlit for 2017-2018, sources close to The CW Network explained that the 5 Berlanti DC TV shows (Arrow, Flash, LoT, Supergirl, Black Lightning) would be staggered throughout the year, rather than scheduling five separate nights of superhero programming. (Feb. 3, 2017 Variety article, page 253 of Mind Your Surroundings thread)

Edited April 12, 2017 by tv echo

[kismet]

34 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I don't know if it's so much all the shows being similar that's the problem -- NCIS has been following exactly the same playbook for 14 seasons and it's still the most watched dramatic show on TV.  I think it's a combination of audience and expectation.  For NCIS it's an expectation that it's going to be exactly the same thing every time.  When one of the show-runners started switching the bad guy from other countries who envy the US to bad guys in the US government, much of the audience hated it.

It's funny that they acknowledge that superhero comics are basically soap operas but they don't get that it's the small moments that makes you attached to the characters which is why you care when the big tropes happen.  If you don't care about the characters, the secret children or betrayals or love triangles don't matter.

Well NCIS is also more procedural base and a CBS show, both characteristics that thrive on predictability. CBS's drama shows tend to falter if they don't use their procedural + military/government + familiar plot/characters = success model. It's what their CBS audiences crave. Flarrowverse was designed as more character & soap/comic driven, which is why I think audiences expect something different from it than another CBS procedural. Agree that it is the small moments that attach you to the characters. Don't understand why the Arrow writers don't understand that.

[BunsenBurner]

The problem with Eli Stone is that the writers didn't have any story left. They had a unique idea and couldn't keep it that way. The writers strike may have had something to do with it but I was feeling it's demise pretty early into season 2.

[ohjoy]

On 4/12/2017 at 8:57 AM, shadow2008 said:

BTW, I really had to roll my eyes the other day when Guggenheim said that the show isn't interested in exploring the social lives of it's characters. I don't think anyone is clamoring to see Oliver or Curtis go grocery shopping, but would it really be so bad to show the characters go out for drinks after a successful mission? We used to get these kinds of scenes fairly often in the earlier seasons and it really helped to enrich the storytelling. Without it, everything on the show feels one-dimensional and claustrophobic. 

 

On 4/12/2017 at 3:19 PM, statsgirl said:

It's funny that they acknowledge that superhero comics are basically soap operas but they don't get that it's the small moments that makes you attached to the characters which is why you care when the big tropes happen.  If you don't care about the characters, the secret children or betrayals or love triangles don't matter.

The episode in s4 when Felicity made Oliver and Diggle talk and then they all went out for drinks was the kind of gold that keeps people watching.

It's weird that those basic moments were included early on, when the show was formulated on the Vampire Diaries structure, but when they really decided to go all-out comic, they dropped those elements as if those were the things that were detrimental to the show.  Where did this rote reference to "Bed Bath and Beyond" and "not an interesting episode" come in? I just find it so strange that idea of an occasional scene or two of these people actually having lives or truly dual identities is somehow tantamount to treason from fans. People are not asking for a bottle episode with characters doing nothing but crossing of lists in a BB&B. They're just asking for a little semblance of normalcy to make the heroics seem more... heroic.

[statsgirl]

I think they weren't expecting the Olicity break-up backlash and that, combined with the reaction to Laurel's death, made them over-correct and go full-on comics. And the more they did that, the more people called for more Olicity.  (Also the more the ratings dropped.)  They really seem to have a problem with balance on this show.

[leopardprint]

(Apologies if this sounds half-baked and please correct me if I'm wrong)

Ratings dropped post deaths of Olicity/LL but they didn't fall off a cliff until 5a right? 

Wouldn't they have started planning for S5 before LL's death aired? So even if they did overcorrect due to ratings, they wouldn't have known until a goodways into 5a. I am just trying to make sense of the timeline. 

[lemotomato]

Ratings fell off a cliff after 415 and never quite recovered by the end of the season. The season 4 finale got 0.82 demo, 2.193 mil viewers (compared to 415, which got 1.02/2.696 mil viewers). 5.01 got  0.7/1.871 mil viewers, which looks really bad compared to 4.01's 1.09/2.67 mil viewers (-36%/-30%) but not as bad compared to 423 (-15%/-15%). 

To get an idea on how far in advance they were writing, Brian Ford Sullivan tweeted that they were breaking 512 on September 21. 

Edited April 17, 2017 by lemotomato

[Morrigan2575]

Yep and if you look at Arrow's history it's typical for the show to drop viewers in the Spring and rebound the following Fall.

The difference is this year Arrow didn't rebound in the Fall and it's unlikely you can pin it on 1 thing. 

[statsgirl]

They would have started planning for 5a but in broad strokes. For example they would have planned for Oliver and Felicity to be apart for 5a but to what extent would still have been flexible.

I don't know what caused the ratings to go down so much in s5 after they had been fairly steady s3 and 4a (SA even commented on the fact that they had stayed steady while other shows went down.)  My guess is a combination of the weirdness between Oliver and Felicity, lack of OTA, lack of Black Canary and viewers not liking the new masks as much as the EPs though people would.  And maybe the repetitive nature of storytelling. and lack of anything good for Thea

Hindsight is great.  I wonder what they're wishing they had done differently (e.g. less of Saint Laurel and bringing on Dinah sooner; connecting Diggle more to Oliver and Felicity and less to WD and other n00bs).

Edited April 17, 2017 by statsgirl

[leopardprint]

Thanks for the data @lemotomato and everyone! 

I personally blame the ratings drop on the introduction of magic because they made the hero look ridiculous via bow & arrow wielding street fighter vs aryan wizard. 4b was pretty silly even without manipulative baby mamas and aneurysms. 

Edited April 17, 2017 by leopardprint

[lemotomato]

46 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Yep and if you look at Arrow's history it's typical for the show to drop viewers in the Spring and rebound the following Fall.

The difference is this year Arrow didn't rebound in the Fall and it's unlikely you can pin it on 1 thing. 

Yeah, I don't think we the viewers will ever know why ratings dropped so much. Looking at the ratings we do have, it looks like season 5's numbers are due to a higher than usual drop in the spring combined with another drop between the season 4 finale and the season 5 premiere, which had never happened in previous seasons.

[leopardprint]

So people dropped the show between S4/S5 hiatus which I gather is abnormal. The hiatus promo was all about back to basics and Olicity are just mature, adult friends who have moved on. In my opinion, the S4 finale was not good and then the summer promo sounded boring so I didn't come back until later in 5a. The plural of anecdote is not data, etc. 

[Mellowyellow]

And people tuned in for s4 premiere, I wonder why......*domestic olicity cough*

[wonderwall]

11 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

And people tuned in for s4 premiere, I wonder why......*domestic olicity cough*

Also because season 3 had a significant ratings bump due to the crossover. We'll... Imo it's mostly because of that. 

[apinknightmare]

I wonder what their ratings would look like if they hadn't introduced magical, mystical stuff. It's kind of like Arrow's version of time travel over on The Flash. Once you start being able to undo things that you've done through means that have whatever explanation the show needs them to have when they use them, the stakes are gone and the story gets less interesting. 

[leopardprint]

@apinknightmare, I'm the opposite of a statistician, but I wonder if it it could be quantified. I question if the tack towards the magical was not in reponse to Flash basically stealing their thunder. Flash is positively held up as the most comic booky of the comic book shows and that wasn't an attempt to bring in more of those elements. Oliver is supposed to be the dark, gritty one and shouldn't win fights with the power of positive thinking or whatever. The S4 flashbacks also might beat Susan for worst storyline ever.

[statsgirl]

According to @lemotomato 's numbers (thanks for those), the 4.01 premier was 1.09 demo and 2,67 million viewers, 4.15 had 2.696 mil viewers, and 4x23 was down to 0.82 and 2.193 million viewers .  By 5x01 it was down to 0.7 and 1.871 million.

While the demo between 401 and 4.15 was down a bit, the number of viewers actually went up.  That suggests that it wasn't the introduction of magic or Olicity that caused the drop by the end of the season because magic and Olicity had been front and centre all season. 

Half a million people stopped watching between 4.15 and the end of the season (almost 20% of viewers), over 800,000 between 4.15 and 5.01 (30% of viewers).  The last episode had a rating of 0.5 and viewership of 1.588 million, dropping more than 40% of viewers in just over one year.   That's up from the previous episode which also had a 0.5 but only 1.379 viewers (51% of 4.15's viewers).

I know that networks look at ratings but I think total viewers is a better measure of whether a show's direction is enjoyed or not.

1 hour ago, wonderwall said:

Also because season 3 had a significant ratings bump due to the crossover. We'll... Imo it's mostly because of that. 

That would affect where the numbers are but not at the rate at which they drop.  Season 4 held fairly steady until the last eight episodes.

Edited April 18, 2017 by statsgirl

[Starfish35]

Thought this was interesting for some ratings perspective:

Edited April 21, 2017 by Starfish35

[BkWurm1]

Wow.

[Mellowyellow]

Wow.....not even CBS!

[theOAfc]

On 18/4/2017 at 4:05 AM, statsgirl said:

Half a million people stopped watching between 4.15 and the end of the season (almost 20% of viewers), over 800,000 between 4.15 and 5.01 (30% of viewers).  The last episode had a rating of 0.5 and viewership of 1.588 million, dropping more than 40% of viewers in just over one year.   That's up from the previous episode which also had a 0.5 but only 1.379 viewers (51% of 4.15's viewers).

I think its interesting that 5a had almost steady ratings while 5b has been steadily dropping. Some fans didnt bother to come back after christmas hiatus(it hasnt hit 0.7 demo not once since 5x09 while for most of 5a it hit 0.7) unlike with season 4 and season 3 that the ratings after christmas hiatus were almost steady(season 3 had a boost due to the crossover and season 4 started dropping after 4x15). 

Generally when after a hiatus, ratings dont recover ,it shows that fans lose interest. Without claiming its the main reason, i think 5a left plenty of people apathetic that they decided to not come back after hiatus similar to how the 4x15 hiatus left many not willing to come back. 

Im lowkey sad that the olicity centric episode might hit 0.4 for the first time because its gonna be preempted. 

I also know its early for predictions but i dont think next season is gonna manage to go above 0.5, with the exception of the season premiere maybe. 

[Mellowyellow]

4 minutes ago, theOAfc said:

I also know its early for predictions but i dont think next season is gonna manage to go above 0.5, with the exception of the season premiere maybe. 

Depends on what they leave people with as well! If it's some ridiculous cliffhanger that serves to irritate rather than make people care, I can see people not bothering with the new season! 

[Midnight Lullaby]

38 minutes ago, theOAfc said:

I think its interesting that 5a had almost steady ratings while 5b has been steadily dropping. Some fans didnt bother to come back after christmas hiatus(it hasnt hit 0.7 demo not once since 5x09 while for most of 5a it hit 0.7) unlike with season 4 and season 3 that the ratings after christmas hiatus were almost steady(season 3 had a boost due to the crossover and season 4 started dropping after 4x15). 

Generally when after a hiatus, ratings dont recover ,it shows that fans lose interest. Without claiming its the main reason, i think 5a left plenty of people apathetic that they decided to not come back after hiatus similar to how the 4x15 hiatus left many not willing to come back. 

Im lowkey sad that the olicity centric episode might hit 0.4 for the first time because its gonna be preempted. 

I also know its early for predictions but i dont think next season is gonna manage to go above 0.5, with the exception of the season premiere maybe. 

They have been steadily dropping since the beginning of the season actually..it's true that they weren't able to keep all their viewers during the winter hiatus but the trend has been the same since the beginning..http://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/arrow-tv-show-cw-season-five-ratings/

[statsgirl]

Yes, what was unusual about Arrow is that the season 3 ratings remained high and so did season 4 until 4x15.  After that it was not only the usual drops after the hiatuses (hiati?) but a mostly steady drop through the season, with the exception of the 100th episode where probably people came back for old times sake, and slight upticks for 5x06 (So It Begins, which was promoted as season Big Bad heavy), 5x11 (Second Chances, which followed the Black Siren episode) and 5x18 (Disbanded).  If the last five episodes are good -- in the way previous seasons were good -- then some viewers may come back but even so I doubt the ratings will go higher than .7.

The drop for superhero shows overall is probably affecting it but if I were an EP, my takeaway would be that you have to give viewers what they want when they want it; you can't say "Hold on till the end of the season and then it will all make sense" because people don't want to have to wait that long before they're having fun again.

[Soulfire]

Preliminary overnight ratings for 5x19: Dangerous Liaisons -- 0.5M in the demo and 1.51M in total viewers.

http://www.spoilertv.com/2017/04/ratings-news-27th-april-2017.html

Edited April 27, 2017 by Soulfire

[Morrigan2575]

Pretty much even with 418 (before break). 

[lemotomato]

Even is good. I'll take even.

I take that back. It would've been nice to get a small bump like Flash did, just to cushion the inevitable drop after next week's pre-emption.

Edited April 27, 2017 by lemotomato

[apinknightmare]

People in the SpoilerTV thread are talking about preemption last night, but I thought it was only preempted in LA next week? 

[JJ928]

I'm actually happy with those #s. While an increase would be nice, I was expecting it to drop after the hiatus, like Supergirl did, so holding steady is good imo.

[lemotomato]

1 minute ago, apinknightmare said:

People in the SpoilerTV thread are talking about preemption last night, but I thought it was only preempted in LA next week? 

Yeah, it's next week, not this week.

[statsgirl]

I wonder if it does better in the +3 ratings if the social media buzz is good.

[way2interested]

I thought it was for both this week and next week?

[calliope1975]

LA aired as scheduled last night. 

[Morrigan2575]

15 minutes ago, way2interested said:

I thought it was for both this week and next week?

It was last week (rerun) and next week (520)

[way2interested]

Ah, that's what got me confused, thanks.

[Velocity23]

Preliminary unrounded numbers  for 5x19

Arrow --> 0.506 (0.510....0.502)
The 100 --> 0.340 (0.357....0.323)

http://www.spottedratings.com/2017/04/spotted-ratings-wednesday-42617.html

Fun fact: Arrows preliminary unrounded numbers are higher than Supergirls this week

Supergirl ............................. 0.494 ... (0.526 ... 0.462)
Jane the Virgin ................... 0.249 ... (0.267 ... 0.231)

http://www.spottedratings.com/2017/04/spotted-ratings-monday-42417.html

[Morrigan2575]

Hopefully it holds in Finals