Spoilers and Spoiler Discussion

[Kate45]

2 hours ago, wingster55 said:

Honestly, a theory I've had since s2 on and off, is that Harry is actually Thawne. It was strengthened when he's name dropped Thawne a few times (or someone else did in his presence, I forget). 

But, didn't they confirm that this he had the same DNA as the original Wells? The one that was killed by EoWells? Or did they never actually run the tests?

[wingster55]

7 hours ago, Kate45 said:

But, didn't they confirm that this he had the same DNA as the original Wells? The one that was killed by EoWells? Or did they never actually run the tests?

I don't remember, but if they did it would have been in season 2. I don't think it would have been in seasons 3 or 4 whenever he came back. Thawne could have easily killed him and assumed his place anytime. 

I don't think it'll happen but ever since the s2 Grodd ep and Cisco's remark of him "knowing a lot" of s1 Thawne I came up with that theory.  

[Kate45]

3 hours ago, wingster55 said:

I don't remember, but if they did it would have been in season 2. I don't think it would have been in seasons 3 or 4 whenever he came back. Thawne could have easily killed him and assumed his place anytime. 

I don't think it'll happen but ever since the s2 Grodd ep and Cisco's remark of him "knowing a lot" of s1 Thawne I came up with that theory.  

Anything is possible, so I could see that happening. But, I think its related to knowing more about DeVoe than he let on. I also think Caitlin could be involved, since she has been spending a lot more time with Harry this season and I wonder if it means something. Them spending time together probably means nothing, but I think it could be a twist. 

[Trini]

4.19 description:

Quote

"Fury Rogue"

WENTWORTH MILLER RETURNS AS CITIZEN COLD - When Barry (Grant Gustin) needs help transporting a dangerous meta, he calls on a new friend for help - Leo Snart AKA Citizen Cold (guest star Wentworth Miller). Meanwhile, Cisco (Carlos Valdes) becomes suspicious of Harry (Tom Cavanagh).

Rachel Talalay directed the episode written by Jeff Hersh & Joshua V. Gilbert

(#419). Original airdate 4/24/2018.

 

Finally! Wentworth returns!

So Gilbert has written one episode before; Hersh is new.

Who is the "dangerous meta"? Someone new, or someone we've seen before?

Hmm - so it looks like this B-plot with Harry and the Thinking Cap will be running through the rest of the season.

[Trini]

Clip from tomorrow's episode: Ralph annoys everyone:

[Trini]

More spoiler bits from Carlos' EW interview:

Quote

It’s actually very difficult for them because Breacher gives Cisco an offer; he offers him a job on Earth-19 as a breacher. And so in the wake of that, Cisco has to weigh that prospect against his loyalties to Team Flash in Central City on Earth-1. That choice sort of brings up some feelings regarding where he stands with his relationship with Gypsy. And it actually complicates the long-distance relationship. So some of the problems that they encounter in the 20th episode of our fourth season are very analogous to the problems that many couples in a long-distance relationship experience in the real world. So that was very challenging to play, but it definitely represents a head, it represents a sort of open to complications between Cisco and Gypsy in their relationship, so that’s super interesting.

Quote

I think you hit the nail on the head. There’s no telling what part of Team Flash’s actions are predestined in DeVoe’s master strategy. DeVoe could have already foreseen that outcome. What makes it especially sinister is that he doesn’t possess the emotional attachment that I think can serve as a hindrance to Team Flash’s efforts to stop DeVoe. He’s cold, he’s calculating, and he will murder or alienate whomever he has to in order to accomplish his tasks.

Quote

The mystery girl in our story is kind of a funny one. Her role is especially to lay down these little clues, these little breadcrumbs for the viewers that ultimately start paying off in terms of establishing a trajectory to season five. So that’s I think what’s going to be the big pay off when we reach the season finale.

Quote

I think that it’s actually a really interesting relationship to look at because Killer Frost has a faith in Caitlin and Caitlin is sort of developing a faith in Killer Frost. And I think we’re starting to reach a point in the story where these two characters that inhabit the same body are starting to recognize that they need each other, you know? And that can only make the relationship stronger.

[DearEvette]

3 hours ago, Trini said:

Clip from tomorrow's episode: Ralph annoys everyone:

Are they making him so super annoying so that they can kill him off and nobody will care.  Because I am on board with that.

[Trini]

The (clickbait-y) title of the EW article questions whether Cisco would leave -- I don't think he will leave, but I can see him taking Breacher up on that job offer for the summer (the season finale), then in the next season premiere he comes back -of course- because of some threat the team needs help with. It wouldn't be a Flash finale without someone leaving!

[cambridgeguy]

Why is it that only Legends of Tomorrow can bring in hew characters and make them worthwhile additions?  Ralph and the newbies on Arrow are insufferable jackasses most of the time.  Even worse, paid professionals came up with this idea, filmed it, and somehow think it's going to be great.

[Kate45]

11 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Why is it that only Legends of Tomorrow can bring in hew characters and make them worthwhile additions?  Ralph and the newbies on Arrow are insufferable jackasses most of the time.  Even worse, paid professionals came up with this idea, filmed it, and somehow think it's going to be great.

I think it's because Legends has a set-up that is conducive to people constantly coming and going. Also, it's an ensemble show.

 

The Flash and Arrow aren't set-up that way, so we are always trained to look for Barry or Oliver's POVs. When we spend too much time on other characters, it becomes strange to not see the show centered on the title character. That's how I see it. 

Edited April 10, 2018 by Kate45

[johntfs]

36 minutes ago, Kate45 said:

I think it's because Legends has a set-up that is conducive to people constantly coming and going. Also, it's an ensemble show.

It's more that LoT sees its characters as fully realized people with their own wants, needs and goals.  Arrow and The Flash seems to prefer using characters more as props and supporters of one main character instead of as complete persons in their own right.

On The Flash Wally West was the younger brother of Iris, Barry's girlfriend/love/fiance.  He was someone Barry mentored as a speedster, showing him the way to be a hero and to be a helpful partner with Barry's superheroics.

On LoT Wally is still some of that, but he's also the guy moping about Jesse who sang "Careless Whisper" in a 1992 Tokyo karoake bar with Rip Hunter.  He's a bit impulsive, tending to use his speed before his words and that impulsiveness has cost.  He'll be a forever scarred by a the memory of Mick Rory naked because he didn't wait to learn that Mick sleeps in the buff before zipping of to dress him for a team meeting.  The Horror. 

[Trini]

I assume that Ralph sacrifices himself for the team next week, and we're supposed to feel bad; but HA! after this last episode, no one will miss you when you're gone, Ralph.

Anyway, the promo (Battle in STAR Labs!) makes the next episode look exciting, but I wonder how much of time that takes up in the actual episode?

Edited April 11, 2018 by Trini

[wingster55]

On 4/7/2018 at 12:13 PM, wingster55 said:

Honestly, a theory I've had since s2 on and off, is that Harry is actually Thawne. It was strengthened when he's name dropped Thawne a few times (or someone else did in his presence, I forget). 

Doesn't seem so crazy now does it?

[Starry]

The season finale is titled We Are The Flash  ?

[ursula]

2 hours ago, Starry said:

The season finale is titled We Are The Flash  ?

I aim to be as pretty as The Flash writers.

[Trini]

5 hours ago, Starry said:

The season finale is titled We Are The Flash  ?

*snort*

At least they're committed to a theme! I really hope the Helbing is writing the finale.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Trini

[Trini]

"Lose Yourself" (4.18) photos are out:

Arturo Del Puerto as Edwin Gauss -

Team Flash!

[ursula]

They couldn't give us a shot of Team Flash that didn't have the black people blocked from view? Seriously?

[wingster55]

"Original Team Flash" ?

[Trini]

Diggle showing up on The Flash again, with ARGUS:

Quote

David Ramsey, who has played Diggle for the past six seasons, spoke with CinemaBlend about his upcoming crossover as well as just how rare and remarkable the Arrow-verse phenomenon has become:

"I'm doing a cameo on a bit of a small crossover. John Diggle will be on Flash in the next few weeks. ..."

[Katsullivan]

14 hours ago, ursula said:

They couldn't give us a shot of Team Flash that didn't have the black people blocked from view? Seriously?

Half of Iris is covered (by Caitlin!) and we can't even see Joe... yet we somehow get a full body shot of Harry even though he's also standing in the rear. Don't tell me crap like this isn't deliberate. 

[adora721]

2 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Half of Iris is covered (by Caitlin!) and we can't even see Joe... yet we somehow get a full body shot of Harry even though he's also standing in the rear. Don't tell me crap like this isn't deliberate. 

Perhaps it's a breadcrumb tossed by the TPTB to those clamoring for OTF.  Although deliberate, it may be the last time we see OTF like this, so those who prefer OTF better enjoy it while it lasts. And no, I don't believe Cisco is leaving. I believe Cait or Harry is leaving.

[Starry]

58 minutes ago, adora721 said:

Perhaps it's a breadcrumb tossed by the TPTB to those clamoring for OTF.  Although deliberate, it may be the last time we see OTF like this, so those who prefer OTF better enjoy it while it lasts. And no, I don't believe Cisco is leaving. I believe Cait or Harry is leaving.

There's no OTF. Harry showed up in s2. There was never a time when the team was just Barry, Cisco and Caitlin. This isn't Arrow. People can clamor for what they want but the writers shouldn't pander to their fan fictions.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Starry
missing word

[Kate45]

13 minutes ago, Starry said:

There's no OTF. Harry showed up in s2. There was never a time when the team was just Barry, Cisco and Caitlin. This isn't Arrow. People can clamor for what they want but the writers shouldn't pander to their fan fictions.

Yes! OTF has never existed, and if it did why isn't Joe an original member? Of course, I know why. 

 

Also, the writers/producers don't select the promotional pictures. That's done by the network/PR.

[adora721]

2 hours ago, Starry said:

There's no OTF. Harry showed up in s2. There was never a time when the team was just Barry, Cisco and Caitlin. This isn't Arrow. People can clamor for what they want but the writers shouldn't pander to their fan fictions.

 

2 hours ago, Kate45 said:

Yes! OTF has never existed, and if it did why isn't Joe an original member? Of course, I know why. 

 

Also, the writers/producers don't select the promotional pictures. That's done by the network/PR.

Oh, I totally agree, but I just used the common term some people idealize. I, personally, love OTB (Original Team Barry), which is Joe and Iris. OTB existed long, long before any other team.

[Trini]

EW Spoiler Room: some more backstory for Caitlin (Killer Frost)?

Quote

I hear that we’ll get to see a young version of Caitlin (played by Victoria Askounis) in an episode before season’s end. Details are being kept under wraps, but it’s safe to assume we’re seeing a flashback.

[Maverick]

 I've long speculated that Caitlin had some trauma that caused her to develop alternate personality that manifested itself as Killer Frost when she got powers.  If that's the case, maybe we'll see what happened to her.  

[adora721]

1 hour ago, Maverick said:

 I've long speculated that Caitlin had some trauma that caused her to develop alternate personality that manifested itself as Killer Frost when she got powers.  If that's the case, maybe we'll see what happened to her.  

I certainly hope you are right. I've said that Caitlin needs therapy more so than WestAllen. I couldn't believe she suggested therapy for them, but not for herself. The writing has really missed an opportunity to write a real, redemptive story for Caitlin and to address mental illness, too, which is a very relevant issue. 

Caitlin's unwillingness to get therapy suggests that she has no interest in experiencing relationships outside of Team Flash. Does she never want romantic love again? Or doesn't she want new friends or to be able to travel without having KF casting a shadow over these experiences?

I have little hope we'll get to see her actually try to integrate her two personalities or make peace with KF. It cannot be anything but terrifying to not know what her other personality is doing. That alone should motivate her to get therapy.

[Trini]

So the promo for "Lose Yourself" seemingly shows Iris getting stabbed by Marlize, but I've seen the theory that it's maybe a vibe vision, and now I'm thinking that might be it. Or maybe it's Harry seeing it as a future possibility with his Thinking Cap.

In any case, I thought it was odd that they'd show that in the promo; and also I would think even the DeVoes would know better than to harm Iris. Also in the promo, the clips with Marlize fighting Iris are colored differently, so it's probably some type of vision that may not actually happen.

----

While it's nice that they are reiterating the theme of the season ("We Are the Flash"), this breaks the pattern of having a speed/running reference in the season finale title.

The "We" is Barry and Iris, but since it's a finale, I wonder if they'll expand the phrase's meaning? Including (maybe) Dawn Allen would be the best guess, but I have a feeling it might be something more. Maybe something that sets up Season 5?

[Trini]

4.20 description:

Quote

"Therefore She Is" - (8:00-9:00 p.m. ET) (TV-PG, V)

GYPSY RETURNS - Barry (Grant Gustin) and Team Flash team up with Gypsy (guest star Jessica Camacho) to try to thwart Thinker's plan. Meanwhile, Cisco (Carlos Valdes) and Gypsy have a heart to heart talk about their relationship.

Rob J. Greenlea directed the episode written by Sterling Gates & Thomas Pound

(#420). Original airdate 5/1/2018.

 

So Gates and Pound are two of the new writers this season (not the Nickelodeon ones); they're credited with a couple of Ralph-focused episodes, BUT also a couple of the better ones this season: "Therefore I Am" (Pound), and "Enter Flashtime" (Gates). I think Gates also used to write Vibe and Gypsy/Cynthia at DC Comics, so hopefully that subplot (or A-plot, dare I hope!) will be worthwhile.

[Trini]

[Trini]

From this Neil Sandilands interview (taped while they filming the finale): he says that the show is going to film "a huge stunt sequence; the biggest stunt sequence The Flash has ever attempted". And he implies that The Thinker may NOT die at the end of the season.

[ruby24]

So, turns out the Dawn character is pure setup for Season 5, which probably means all that stuff about "this house is bitchin'" and "we need more diapers" is too. And if this is the case, I really think they teased her way, WAY too early. Setup for the next season should not start happening in the first third of the current season with occasional teases but no follow up until the finale.

[shantown]

I completely forgot that "This house is bitchin" was even this season. Seems like two years ago at least. They have not been good with the plotting or the pacing this year.

[wingster55]

^ Based on that one line? It was clear imo that it would be brought up later. May not even be this season. 

[adora721]

I and others are speculating that KF is alive and well inside DeVoe. Unlike other metas, Caitlin didn't just get cold powers; she got an alternate personality, too. That personality seems to be entangled with the powers. If DeVoe now has KF's powers, he should also have the KF personality. Perhaps KF will fight DeVoe from the inside. 

Another of my speculations is that Cait might betray the team in an attempt to get KF back. She seemed genuinely sad to lose her, which is in stark contrast to how desperate Cait was to get rid of her and her powers in 3x7 and most of season 4. Could this betrayal be why the Mystery Girl gave Caitlin (and Harry) that suspicious look?

[Kate45]

4 hours ago, adora721 said:

I and others are speculating that KF is alive and well inside DeVoe. Unlike other metas, Caitlin didn't just get cold powers; she got an alternate personality, too. That personality seems to be entangled with the powers. If DeVoe now has KF's powers, he should also have the KF personality. Perhaps KF will fight DeVoe from the inside. 

Another of my speculations is that Cait might betray the team in an attempt to get KF back. She seemed genuinely sad to lose her, which is in stark contrast to how desperate Cait was to get rid of her and her powers in 3x7 and most of season 4. Could this betrayal be why the Mystery Girl gave Caitlin (and Harry) that suspicious look?

This is a very interesting point. I just had a thought, when we first met Melting Point, he switched Barry's powers to Iris. When Caitlin completed the testing she said that Barry also lost his connection to the SpeedForce, and that it had been switched to Iris. Even though the SpeedForce isn't a seperate personality, it is a seperate entity. Do you think it would work the same for KF? 

In other words, do you think it's possible that the powers may just switch without the seperate personality when switched to DeVoe? 

Also, every time DeVoe takes someone's powers he uncovers new aspects to it. I'm wondering if it's possible for DeVoe to take powers and destroy them instead of using them. Mostly because DeVoe has never shown any interest in the meta abilities of anyone outside of the bus metas and I can't see why it would change now. 

[Trini]

EW Spoiler Room:

Quote

Gypsy’s return will provide Cisco with some major insight — and not just about whether he should take Breacher’s job. “Cisco, I think inside, doesn’t want to take the job because he doesn’t want to let down the team,” Carlos Valdes says. “But on Gypsy’s end, she doesn’t want Cisco to take the job because she fears that being in closer contact might spoil the beauty of what they have.” Though we’ll be waiting a bit longer to find out whether Cisco will end up taking the job, expect some, ahem, movement in his long-distance relationship with Gypsy soon.

[adora721]

1 hour ago, Kate45 said:

Even though the SpeedForce isn't a seperate personality, it is a seperate entity. Do you think it would work the same for KF? 

In other words, do you think it's possible that the powers may just switch without the seperate personality when switched to DeVoe? 

See, that's the weirdness that the writers created with KF.  KF seems to be connected to the cold power like you stated that the Speed Force is connected to Barry's speed.  Think back to Magenta, who was also an alternate personality that had powers.  Frankie herself had no powers; Magenta was the personality with the power. The only thing that can throw a wrench in this theory is if the Caitlin flashback shows that she suffered some trauma that was the genesis of the KF alternate years ago,  and that personality has been suppressed all this time.

Edited April 19, 2018 by adora721

[Trini]

Photos for "Fury Rogue" (4.19) are out, and Katie Cassidy is also guest starring as Earth-X Siren! (from the photos it looks like she's a Nazi? Or at least a villain?)

Showdown at CCPD?

[BeautifulFlower]

The first episode after her powers being taken away, Caitlin is in trouble and needs to be rescued again? YEt, her fans like to say that she's not a damsel in distress. How many times does this make?

[Trini]

At least Wentworth Miller will be back on my screen, and I'm also looking forward to Cisco and Cynthia's upcoming subplot.

[BeautifulFlower]

Speaking of Wentworth, I think it's great his last appearance in the Arrowverse will be on the Flash as it was his first show where he appeared

[Primal Slayer]

Why are you going to bring in another evil version of Laurel and not even give her anything resembling a different outfit? Weak. 

[Kate45]

1 hour ago, BeautifulFlower said:

The first episode after her powers being taken away, Caitlin is in trouble and needs to be rescued again? YEt, her fans like to say that she's not a damsel in distress. How many times does this make?

I think 4 times this season. 4x08, 4x09, 4x11, and now 4x19. She usually gets kidnapped 1-2 times per season, so this is above average. Pretty sure she's been the damsel in distress the most of all of the characters save for Ms. Spivot. 

 

2 hours ago, adora721 said:

See, that's the weirdness that the writers created with KF.  KF seems to be connected to the cold power like you stated that the Speed Force is connected to Barry's speed.  Think back to Magenta, who was also an alternate personality that had powers.  Frankie herself had no powers; Magenta was the personality with the power. The only thing that can throw a wrench in this theory is if the Caitlin flashback shows that she suffered some trauma that was the genesis of the KF alternate years ago,  and that personality has been suppressed all this time.

Yeah, this has become a major problem. In the comics, KF (now known as Frost and is a member of the JLA as a hero) is not a separate personality. I'm not sure why the show has chosen to do it this way. They should correct it soon. However, even though these ice powers come through a different personality, it may not be the case when transferred to another person. It may just be the power itself and nothing else.  

[Trini]

1 hour ago, Primal Slayer said:

Why are you going to bring in another evil version of Laurel and not even give her anything resembling a different outfit? Weak. 

Yeah; I'm also wondering if she even has powers.

[Primal Slayer]

1 minute ago, Trini said:

Yeah; I'm also wondering if she even has powers.

I kind of hope not, or if she does at least make it hypnotic. Arrow has already made Siren very vicious so it'll be hard to do a different version of her that is bad.  Hell they could've at least given her a different hair style!

[Trini]

::sigh::

Episode 4.21 description:

Quote

"Harry and the Harrisons" -  (TV-PG, V)

THE TEAM TURNS TO AMUNET BLACK FOR HELP - With DeVoe's Enlightenment device nearly complete, in order to disable it The Flash (Grant Gustin) and his team must put their faith in an unlikely ally - Amunet Black (guest star Kattee Sackhoff). Meanwhile, Harry (Tom Cavanagh) hits an all-time low when the "Council of Wells" kicks him out but then Cisco (Carlos Valdes) introduces him to the "Council of Harrisons."

Kevin Mock directed the episode written by Judalina Neira & Lauren Certo

(#421). Original airdate 5/8/2018.

[BeautifulFlower]

1 hour ago, Kate45 said:

I think 4 times this season. 4x08, 4x09, 4x11, and now 4x19. She usually gets kidnapped 1-2 times per season, so this is above average. Pretty sure she's been the damsel in distress the most of all of the characters save for Ms. Spivot. 

 

Yeah, this has become a major problem. In the comics, KF (now known as Frost and is a member of the JLA as a hero) is not a separate personality. I'm not sure why the show has chosen to do it this way. They should correct it soon. However, even though these ice powers come through a different personality, it may not be the case when transferred to another person. It may just be the power itself and nothing else.  

I think Caitlin and Joe are the ones who need rescuing the most.

 

Unless KF was secretly some ghost possessing Caitlin, she is still just another personality of Caitlin's. The powers messed with her brain which created the KF personality. So, Devoe took the power, not the personality. If the writers were hellbent on doing this split personality thing, why did they decide to treat it as KF being a whole other person? Fictional or not, that's not how split personalities work. Because of this, Caitlin's basically been absolved of all wrongdoings both on the show and in the fandom.

[Trini]

Re: 4.21: For the past 3 seasons, episode 21 is usually a 'lighter', filler-ish episode that's a break before the finale 2-parter, with a significant Barry/Iris moment. Hopefully the trend continues, since Neira and Certo have been with the show for a while.
 

Quote

... The Flash and his team must put their faith in an unlikely ally - Amunet Black....

I mean, I guess she owes them for not putting her in jail on several occasions? I just hope this is the last time we see Amunet, and they resolve whatever between her and Caitlin/KF.
 

Quote

... Harry hits an all-time low when the "Council of Wells" kicks him out but then Cisco introduces him to the "Council of Harrisons....

I will be fastforwarding through this subplot. I didn't miss anything the last time I skipped the Council of UGH.
 

Quote

With DeVoe's Enlightenment device nearly complete, in order to disable it...

So apparently the Team gets more info on DeVoe's plans in 4.20; still pretty late into the season.

Edited April 20, 2018 by Trini