The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why

[RadioGirl27]

Anyway, that tells me the writers are worried about the general response to 4B. There are lots of different reasons why people are unhappy about 4B, but it seems to me that it hasn't been well-received on the whole. Even some loyal TV critics are making negative comments.

 

I hope they actually sit back and think about what they've done wrong instead of just doing the defensive, knee-jerk "The fans simply don't understand our brilliance!" response. I doubt it, but I hope.

Yeah, I think they are worried, because they have been quite defensive lately in their interaction with fans, more than before. Probably because the biggest part of the fandom is unhappy with this half season and is vocal about it. I mean, the only thing this fandom agrees is that the Author storyline is ridiculous.

But at the same time, I'm not sure if they care enough to make some changes. The problems the show have are quite obvious since season 2 and they haven't done anything to solve them. On the contrary, they have deepen some of them.

[Shanna Marie]

Oh man, if I didn't have so much other stuff to deal with this week and weren't still recovering from a nasty cold that's trying to turn into bronchitis, I'd be so tempted to dive into the Twitter wars. I dare them to tell me to go play with my coloring books. Someone would get seriously schooled.

 

Anyway, it looks like one of the issues with the writing is the fact that they seem to have made surprise the primary value, at the expense of everything else. They seem to feel that actually setting something up takes away from the big surprise. That's how we had Belle teleporting into the clock tower to interrupt Rumple crushing Hook's heart rather than actually seeing the development of her realization of what Rumple was up to and explaining how that got her to the clock tower and how Emma and Snow managed to just show up rather than us actually seeing their process of deduction. And now that's how we have the "Marian was Zelena all the time" revelation with absolutely no setup and with the actress apparently not even knowing that she was playing a different character until now.

 

As we've said before, a good retcon -- or a good surprise twist/revelation -- is one in which you look back and think "Oh, of course! That's what was going on." A bad one is one that actually contradicts what we saw. A good counter example might be the River Song arc on Doctor Who (I don't think this counts as a spoiler because it's been years). They played it as a mystery of who she really was, with her dropping hints that her identity mattered while she refused to tell them until it was time. I think some of it was actually retcon and they didn't decide who she was until later, but once they did decide who she was, they told Alex Kingston and didn't tell the rest of the cast. It wasn't blindingly obvious, even though River was never a subtle character, but once they did reveal that she was Amy and Rory's daughter, you could tell if you went back and watched the earlier episodes. One clue was that River flirted outrageously with every man she encountered, but she never flirted with Rory. She acted fond of him and familiar, and sometimes she even teased him, but she never did anything that would have been inappropriate for their relationship (and apparently Arthur Darvill did figure it out before he was officially told, based on this, because he picked up on the very different vibe she had with him). But if they'd handled that like they handled the Zelena reveal on this show, they'd have let River flirt and make all kinds of inappropriate remarks with Rory -- and then expected us to believe that all along she knew he was her father.

 

Zelena is not a subtle character. Even in her brief time of impersonating Ariel to mess with Hook, she couldn't quite keep a straight face, and she was pouring it on really thick -- it was a twist reveal that worked because once we learned it was Zelena, you could look back at the rest of the episode and see all the signs. I can't imagine her being able to maintain Marian's humble sincerity, especially in one-on-one scenes with Regina. The actress did a great job in being just slightly off in this latest episode where it was revealed, but that was only evident because it was different from the Marian we'd been seeing all season. We didn't know Marian well enough to know whether or not she was "off" during that whole time. Regina didn't remember her, so she wouldn't have been able to figure anything out even if Marian had been openly cackling and twirling her mustache. Only around Robin and maybe the Merry Men was there any reason for Marian to have to act like Marian -- and then we have to wonder how Zelena would even know how to act, given that in this latest episode she was having to fudge things when Robin asked her direct questions about their past. She could have been a stone-cold bitch to Regina without Regina being any the wiser. There was absolutely no reason why Zelena ever would have told Regina earnestly that she wasn't a monster, after all. The only way I can imagine that happening would be if Robin was present and it was done passive-aggressively as a way of bringing up all the horrible things Regina had done to her in the past, but maybe she has changed a little bit and isn't the terrible, horrible person she once was who separated Marian from her family.

 

So I can think of dozens of bits of evidence that this wasn't planned -- or at least was badly executed. The only thing I can think of that might be proof otherwise was Zelena letting herself get frozen so she'd be less likely to be tripped up, but then you have to wonder what purpose that would serve, since it basically sent Robin right into Regina's arms. Just by showing up, she was taking Robin away from Regina, so I don't see the point of her giving her blessing before taking Robin away. All she did there was give Regina the consolation that Robin really had chosen Regina and let Regina feel like she'd done the right thing -- she wasn't happy, but she did feel better about herself. If that's a revenge scheme, it really sucks.

[KingOfHearts]

 

We didn't know Marian well enough to know whether or not she was "off" during that whole time.

Replying in All Seasons.

[Mathius]

I know that the show is technically Adam & Eddy's vision, but at some point as show runners, there has to be a balancing act where they address what the audience is enjoying the most and adjusting their game plan to match that. Because at the end of the day, television is a business, and if they keep losing viewers and viewer interest, they won't have jobs anymore.

They've done so in the past with other aspects of the show, but I guess it's too much to expect them to do the same when it involves Regina.

[Shanna Marie]

I ran across this line in a review of an episode of Gotham, referring to a "surprise" "twist" in that show, and I think it applies just as well to many of the surprise twists in this show:

This last beat comes straight from the M. Night Shyamalan School of Narrative, which teaches that a last-minute “twist” is a satisfactory stand-in for an actual story that’s compelling and substantial, where we care about people and what happens to them.

 

For a "twist" to work, I think it needs to be in an actual story that's compelling and substantial, where we care about people and what happens to them. Otherwise, a twist is a cheap trick. Looking at Shyamalan's work, The Sixth Sense works because we care about the characters, and the twist actually makes it even more poignant. The twist elevates the story, so that it's still compelling even after you know the twist. It becomes a different movie that still stands on its own once you know what's really going on. It makes it sadder and more meaningful. But even without the twist that elevates it, it was still a nice story. Some of his later stuff works less because he's so focused on the clever twist that he forgets to make the rest of the story work.

 

Few of this show's twists work that way. I do think the revelation of why Rumple wanted the curse cast works -- it adds a layer of meaning to the earlier episodes to go back and realize why Rumple is doing the things he's doing. I love the revelation of Prince Charming's real identity. It came fairly early in the series, but "Snow Falls" becomes a totally different episode once you have that information. The Pan as Rumple's father twist was kind of so-so -- it didn't feel like a retcon, but it didn't really add much to anything.

 

Most of their surprises just fall flat because they're surprises for the sake of surprises. There's no foundation, and that means there's no fun in finding the clues, no layering of additional meaning. At their worst, like the Zelena as Marian twist, it makes no sense and ruins the previous episodes because you find yourself going "uh, but why would Zelena do that?"

[jhlipton]

For a "twist" to work, I think it needs to be in an actual story that's compelling and substantial, where we care about people and what happens to them. 

 

The "twist" also has to fit with the rest of the story.  If you watch The Sixth Sense (or Momento) after you know the twist, the story holds together because it was planned and filmed with the twist in mind. (It actually quite fun to see the clues that M Night put in SS to show what's really happening.)

 

As numerous people have pointed out, nothing about Zelana as Marian fits with the rest of the story.  If you go back and watch the previous episodes of 4B, you don't say "Dang, how did I miss that?", you say "That makes no frikking sense whatsoever!!!!".

[Mathius]

For a "twist" to work, I think it needs to be in an actual story that's compelling and substantial, where we care about people and what happens to them. Otherwise, a twist is a cheap trick. Looking at Shyamalan's work, The Sixth Sense works because we care about the characters, and the twist actually makes it even more poignant. The twist elevates the story, so that it's still compelling even after you know the twist. It becomes a different movie that still stands on its own once you know what's really going on. It makes it sadder and more meaningful. But even without the twist that elevates it, it was still a nice story. Some of his later stuff works less because he's so focused on the clever twist that he forgets to make the rest of the story work.

This. The only other movie he did this similar good twist work on was "Unbreakable". In there, we come to care about Bruce Willis (again) and Samuel L. Jackson perhaps even moreso. The story would have been a neat superhero origin story with Jackson as the mentor figure without the twist, but with the twist, it becomes even deeper. The end twist revealing that Jackson was a supervillain whose superhero mentoring of Willis was all for his own benefit, so that he could know his place in the world, is just perfectly done, IMO. The callback to the things he's done and the things he's said throughout the movie, especially a repeated line that he closes the film with, is just chilling, and rewatching the movie with the twist in mind makes all of Jackson's scenes even more engaging and his character that much more complex.

Also, I know some have argued the contrary, but I feel the Hans as the villain twist in "Frozen" also works in this way. As you go back and watch his scenes, there actually ARE a number of hints in the animation and sometimes dialogue that leads to the twist, lots of moments where you can just see the wheels in his head turning as he quickly figures out how to react to a new complication to what he thought was going to be a straightforward plan. One such moment that stands out is when Anna is going to set off after Elsa, Hans insists on going with her because it's too dangerous. Anna says she wants him to stay behind to lead the kingdom in her and Elsa's absence, and he IMMEDIATELY agrees and promises he will. Watching initially, you think "Wow, it sure didn't take long or take much for him to drop his protests to Anna going alone." That bafflingly quick change of tune from Hans ends up making sense with the twist in mind...he felt he couldn't take control without marrying Anna so he didn't want her to get herself killed, but then she puts him in charge and offers him an even better situation to win the citizens over, and if she dies he'll still be in charge, so he takes her offer.

These are the kinds of "evil all along" twists that work. Zelena = Marian, OTOH, does not.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Mathius

[Shanna Marie]

I liked the "Hans was the villain!" twist in Frozen because I thought they did a great job of playing with your expectations. They took a character who looks and acts like most of the prior Disney princes. He gets the big romantic duet number and does all the dashing hero stuff. And then we learn that he was deliberately playing that role. It's like the character himself had seen every Disney movie and knew just what to do. The revelation is a shock the first time you see the movie -- and almost a relief at the same time because I know I found myself really torn. I'd accepted that Hans was going to be Anna's love interest, but then I liked her interactions with Kristoff, and I was trying to figure out how it was going to work out -- would Elsa end up with one of the guys, instead? Anna had that big romantic duet with Hans, but Kristoff was such a better fit. Seeing the movie after knowing the twist, it's there all along if you remove your expectations based on every other Disney movie.

 

There's a story attributed to Hitchcock about the difference between surprise and suspense. If you see a scene of a family enjoying a nice picnic at the park, and then suddenly a bomb placed under their picnic table goes off, that's surprise. If the audience sees the bomb at the beginning of the scene, but the family remains oblivious, enjoying their picnic, and the audience is left wondering when the bomb will go off, wanting to shout out warnings to the family, worrying about them, with increasing tension, that's suspense. Each has its place in storytelling.

 

I think these writers have forgotten about suspense in their love for surprise. Take the revelation that Belle and Will are dating. Because they wanted that moment to be a surprise, they did nothing to develop that relationship. We don't know how they started dating, what they see in each other, what happened to his wife, what they do together, or anything that makes us care about them as a couple. Did we really benefit from that revelation being a surprise? It really only mattered that it was a surprise to Rumple. If we'd known about it and seen it develop, there would have been suspense because we'd have known that there was something Rumple was going to find out that was going to make him very, very angry, and if we'd actually seen them enough as a couple to care about them and want them to be happy, that would have made us more worried for them. We'd have seen him outside the shop, looking in, and we'd have tensed up, knowing what he was going to see.

 

Same with the magical appearance of everyone at the clock tower, just in time for Hook to be saved. That's when suspense might have worked if they were cutting back and forth from Rumple preparing the spell to Belle finding and following clues to Emma learning things about Rumple. He'd be getting closer and closer to crushing Hook's heart, and we'd have been worried about whether the others were going to make it on time. I think that would have had a lot more impact than the "surprise" of them showing up just in time.

[OnceUponAJen]

How about "The Usual Suspects?" Amazing twist at the end!!

[jhlipton]

How about "The Usual Suspects?" Amazing twist at the end!!

 

And, again,. clues throughout once you know what to look for.  Momento is one of my favorite of these kinds of movies because almost everyone, including the protagonist is different from what they seem, but, when you watch in "normal" sequence (opposite of how it's shown), their actions make sense with their true character.

 

It helps that Nolan isn't locked into "twist" movies the way Shamalongadingdong is.  Momento and Inception are both "twisty" but Insomnia and the Batman trilogy aren't -- I don't know enough about Interstellar to say.

Edited April 18, 2015 by jhlipton

[stealinghome]

Twists are also much more effective when there's not just build-up, but also follow-through, and I find that the OUAT writers fail there as well (no surprise). Not only are the twists not built up to properly, but half the time they're forgotten by the next episode when at least some really ought to be game-changers.

I have to admit that I get a real kick out of the writing staff sitting around WRACKING THER BRAINS about why the fandom JUST DOESN'T GET THEIR CREATIVE VISION. Like, guys, spend 20 minutes on this site. You'll figure it out.

Edited April 18, 2015 by stealinghome

[Delphi]

The Zelena as Marion honestly just reminds me of Dollhouse, at the very last second it turns out that Echo's best friend is actually some evil mastermind behind all the madness and it makes absolutely no sense regarding anything they showed and when interviewed about it, I think it was Tim Minear, he was like, oh yeah we decided it during the home stretch when we were finishing things, but don't worry it all adds up still. No, it doesn't add up. It's purely for shock value. That's not good storytelling.

[SilverShadow]

Also, I know some have argued the contrary, but I feel the Hans as the villain twist in "Frozen" also works in this way.

 

Frozen I find frustrating because they clearly knew what they were doing but A) They cheat. The biggest example is after the boat flips over and you see Hans smiling besottedly after Anna has already left. It's not smirk, it's a swoony face.There is nobody in the scene with him but his horse. Who is he putting an act on for?  The viewing audience. CHEATING! And B) The reveal happens very quickly before the resolution and it's not explored very well. "Kay I'm evil and leaving you here to die. Byeeeeeee." Dramatic final confrontation, punch, Happy Ending. There's not a ton of exploration of his motivation and he doesn't get a real villain song. It's a planned twist, but it's underdeveloped.

 

Which, don't get me wrong, is still better than twists that make no sense with, oh, everything that's been previously established, for the sake of cheap drama and 'graying' heroic characters. If I hadn't basically decided to ignore what Snowing did to Mal's baby by imaging the author did it (and I don't care what the writers have said on Twitter or elsewhere) I'd be giving up the show.

[KingOfHearts]

Twists also have to have a reason besides shock value. Hans was not secretly a villain just to make the audience jump out of their seats when Anna almost freezes to death. He led the driving force against Elsa and it was part of a message that you shouldn't instantly trust appealing people. It served the story and it served the characters, and the writers didn't do it just because "Evil Hans is so fun! We got to have him!" It fit the overall structure and setup the climax where Elsa's sisterly love saves Anna. It didn't need to be in there just for the sake of a twist.

 

With Once, however, the only real effect Zelena being alive gives is writing Outlaw Queen out of a corner. Other than that, it has no purpose other than the OMG factor. Which is right up the writers' alley... though this is by far the most ridiculous one up to date.

Edited April 18, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Zuleikha]

With Once, however, the only real effect Zelena being alive gives is writing Outlaw Queen out of a corner.

And they didn't even manage to do that properly.

[ParadoxLost]

With Once, however, the only real effect Zelena being alive gives is writing Outlaw Queen out of a corner.

 

Nobody puts Outlaw Queen in a corner.

[myril]

from Spoiler thread, quoting REGULARLYLEADED
 

The writers are stepping on themselves here and don't seem to care that they are assassinating Snow & Charming because why? Because the writers wanted to show the "heroes" as having feet of clay. But this is far beyond having feet of clay. This is a knowingly malicious action with a dollop of no regrets, and that's not the same as having "feet of clay". This entire plot with Snowing's secret and the author plot are so poorly thought out and such a huge misfire that I'm left with the impression that the writers are actually trying to write bad, bad plots. In the past I thought they were trying to write good stories and, unfortunately, blew it 7 times out of 10. But now it's as if purposely writing bad plots is a challenge that they've accepted with zeal. *SMH*

 

I've been fostering for a while now the thought, that the writers are working on proving to audience, that professional writers are better and more professional in writing bad (fan) fiction than any of us fans will ever be. Kinda like trolling back trolls.

There have been ups and downs over the past seasons, mostly still in the normal range of good entertainment shows, although I didn't follow their Woegina fan club writing and had hoped for a bit more than just good fluffy entertainment, but things IMO began to change dramatically in season 3B, and now season 4 is nothing but a big mess, They still deliver some quality writing on the dialogue and scene level, if you just look at them out of context, but the big story of the show has become a big bad mess. The Frozen arc was nothing but a breather in the mess, but hardly even covering the idiot things happening beneath the surface.

 

It baffles me immensely how these writers manage to turn gold into not just straw but BS. Should call it maybe dallas-fication, or dullest-fication of good entertainment. Normally I would insist it's random, they're just not that good and have now finally run out of good ideas even, the Zarian twist is just a cheap way out of a dead end, but somehow my mind can't work with that idea here and so comes up with conspiracy and speculates, it's all on purpose to get back at years of fan fiction abuse or so, just to make some sense of it all. They lured us into their world with the taste of good candy and now they're putting the fans into an oven heated by fires of fan fiction hell. Reading this forum I feel like reading a forum of addicts struggling to let go of their addiction for good. As if there was not enough other good stuff (addictive entertainment) out there even. True, this kind of fairy tale like show is still somewhat unique.

 

Okay, if it weren't for this place maybe some more would have given up by now, I'm an example of that. Only still scanning episodes because it's fun to talk with you here about it, and often enough insightful for understanding more a about writing and perception.

 

The Zarian twist and the whole author plot are each in themselves badly written, and Zarian is a bad idea even. Maybe putting crap and crap together will somehow miraculously turn something to the better, but I have my doubts.

 

I just have no clue whatsoever what are the writers trying to tell us, what is the story besides the obvious making fairy tale characters run around multiple worlds and do stuff plot? Remember they babbled something about it being all about hope. What hope? Evil and good aren't born but made - uhm, well, sounds like an interesting theme, if it would be explored.

 

I disliked what BSG (Battelstar Galactica) did in its last season, the whole mysterious higher power part, and the writing got wonky with it, but in the end it was still somewhat open, if there indeed was some higher power at work or people just strongly believing there was and acting on that believe, while what happened could still have been random. The reflection on religion and believes on the show was an interesting meta level of the show. One could just have fun with it and be entertained, or you could get deeper and explore the meta. What made BSG despite its not so good last season still all in all an outstanding show to watch, was IMO, that it was working more than just fun entertainment level, very much living up to what science fiction can be.

 

Now I think fantasy, fairy tales, can do that too. Be fun, entertaining, offer some escapism and still get to the intellect at the very same time. OUaT had, still has, the ingredients for it, questions of morality, the question of good and evil, of what makes something or someone heroic, question of believes and their power, like is it fate or free will, true love something predestined or earned, is a soulmate a soulmate because we want them to be or because they are meant to be (be it higher power or nature), is family just who we are born into or more something we grow into or something we might even have a choice about at some point.

 

Sadly all the writers seem to be into though is the next great wacko shiny surprise!twist. No wonder they don't really write any good suspense, they don't have enough substance in their stories and plot to do that. There is nothing to build up on nor up to. I've seen fans here and in other places coming up with more substance to the characters in their headcanons than the writers have ever given them on screen.  And their surprises are fairly often not even surprises, by now more the worst ideas fans have speculate about before. Their story telling and twists are seldom innovative, mostly rather conservative, bound to, I would say, retro 50s cultural ideas, with a superficial touch of a modern world, were women can't be kept at home anymore as humble and obedient housewives and mothers, so princess can't be told anymore, that such scenario is their dream happy ending. I don't mind problematic relationships being portrayed and explored, but I mind if they are mistaken as romantic ideals. The show is sometimes praised for a (seemingly) modern, nearly feminist take on fairy tales, for creating alleged strong female characters, but is better giving  their male characters, be it Rumple, be it Hook or even Charming depth.

 

It is interesting how this show shows plenty of bad fan fiction turns and elements by now, like problematic relationships idealized as romantic (50 Shades of Grey does that as well and is far from the only badly written fan fiction doing so), people resurrected just because, people having superpowers without limits unless they don't, opponents acting too dumb and complicate, tripping over themselves (be it villain or hero, depending which one prefers to follow),  magical items coming out of nowhere and disappearing into oblivion just a paragraph or at best a chapter later, magic having no rules although the characters always say it has, characters having free will or after all being driven by fate at the whim of the author(s), story arcs more bumpy and holey than an old brick road. There is even a Mary Sue like character, though Regina is hardly a representation of the writers inserted into the story, but for a part of the fandom she might be their representation of choice. For the lead writers I think Henry jr. is actually their Marty Stu, and should start to call him Henry Stu. It has the appearance of fan fiction, just that the writers on the show are doing it on a higher level of word-art.

 

Could be fun, if they would do it on purpose, but somehow can't get rid of the impression, that the writers take their own show still way too serious for that.

Edited April 18, 2015 by myril

[sharky]

Just out of curiosity, now that Josh has confirmed that the show is coming back for season 5, is there anywhere that has or will confirm who the writers will be for the next season? I'm sure there won't be much of a shake-up, but I'm hoping to find out if they've decided to move on without certain writers who may have not had such a successful first year on staff and who's going to stay around.

[jhlipton]

There's not a ton of exploration of his motivation and he doesn't get a real villain song. It's a planned twist, but it's underdeveloped.

He's the youngest of a bunch of sons and capturing Arendale is his only hope of amounting to anything.  I think he tells us flat-out what his motivation is.

[Camera One]

The writers are stepping on themselves here and don't seem to care that they are assassinating Snow & Charming because why? Because the writers wanted to show the "heroes" as having feet of clay. But this is far beyond having feet of clay. This is a knowingly malicious action with a dollop of no regrets, and that's not the same as having "feet of clay".

 

I think there are several reasons for this.  

 

Firstly, it's basically the writers not being able to do subtle.  The whole "There is a grey boundary between heroes and villains" idea is so central for 4B, so their main goal was to *prove* that heroes aren't necessarily heroes.  With their assassination of Snow & Charming, there's no way we viewers won't "get it".  Jane Espenson even clarified on Twitter that the egg was a baby and it was a horrible thing to do.

 

Secondly, as regularlyleaded said, they have no interest in exploring Snow and Charming as real characters.  They're boring to write for, so they went out of their way to create a giant drama like this.  They needed to invent a link to one of the Queens of Darkness, while at the same time, they needed to show that the Queens of Darkness are human too.  So this plotline killed two birds with one stone.

 

Thirdly, the writers were no doubt trying to think of ideas to push their plot forward.  They needed to give Maleficent motivation against the protagonists.  They needed to have Emma contemplate going "dark".  For the latter, there were only two ways.  It would have to be either Hook or Snow/Charming who would need to disappoint her and push her over the edge.  

Edited April 18, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

The whole "There is a grey boundary between heroes and villains" idea is so central for 4B, so their main goal was to *prove* that heroes aren't necessarily heroes.

I guess they're trying to avoid the "but the heroes' lives aren't any better than Regina's life, so where is she getting this only heroes can get happy endings nonsense?" criticism by showing what bad thing the heroes did that explains why their lives aren't any happier than Regina's.

 

Speaking as a fellow professional writer, the sense I get is one of panic -- like they're throwing in everything they can think of and frantically trying to raise the stakes because they fear (with some justification) that what they're doing isn't working. Going back and taking a story apart to fix it in subtle ways is hard work and takes time, which they may not have, and since portions of the story have already aired, they're stuck with what they've already put out there. It's not like writing a novel, where if you realize you've written yourself into a corner in chapter fifteen, you can go back and revise chapters one through fifteen to fix it. In their case, chapters one through five have already been published. This season feels like they had an emergency brainstorming session to figure out what they could do next, captured every idea, and then instead of picking one and really developing it, they decided to use all of them at once. And then they realized they needed to raise the stakes, so instead of a more subtle gray in between heroes and villains, they did something really extreme. Except they haven't treated it like a shades of gray issue, but rather like a designated hero did a bad thing. That's the really weird thing here, that they're treating "heroes" and "villains" like sports teams, where you have to pick a side, and once you're there, you're there, rather than really dealing in shades of gray. They're still using those terms rather than dealing with the idea that maybe there aren't heroes and villains, but just people who may do heroic or villainous things at various points in their lives.

 

I mean, really, Snow and Charming fought a war to win their thrones back, and somehow they ended up in George's castle instead of in Snow's family home, which means to some extent Charming is a usurper since he wasn't the rightful heir and George is still alive. Wasn't there enough story potential there to give us some gray? When is taking someone's throne the right thing to do? Who decides who's an unjust ruler? Was there a touch of revenge there as motivation, since George essentially split up David's family in taking James, then took him away from his mother, and then gave the order that led to his mother's death? That would have fit in the established story and would have been in character.

[nksarmi]

I think the writers have written themselves into a corner they can't come back from this season.  I know the show will soldier on into season five, but I believe they have done irreparable damage to their characters.  I might watch the last episode or two of this season to see if I can come back for season five, but I just don't know if I can watch this show anymore.

 

I hated the last season of True Blood and was so excited that the actress would be coming over here to play Mal when that show was finished.  I wanted to get some version of a Pam fix so bad. I haven't been able to watch one episode of 4B and that was after 4A was surprisingly good for me.  In fact, I think following the Frozen arc with this story was one of the biggest mistakes the show has ever made. They won themselves viewers with Frozen and then they proceed to basically ruin Snow White. 

 

That's a huge mistake for those of us who have been watching the amazing Bandit Snow from day one (actually I came in late, but I did watch every episode until now), but they have lessoned Snow's wonderfulness over time.  But can you imagine the smack viewers who came for Frozen took when they started dirtying up Snow White and Prince Charming with ugly morals and dirty tricks?  And they really can't see why viewers wouldn't like this?

 

For me, they can only bring this story to two logical conclusions.....1) None of the story book characters really do have free will.  In which case, why should I bother to watch or care about their endings at all? or 2) Snow is a ruined character because everyone does have free will and there are no guarantees.  Emma is amazing all because of who she is - not because of some magic spell.  And clearly having a "pure" heart vs. "dark" heart isn't a matter of action but just a matter of who you believe yourself to be.  Because Snow is pretty much an awful and morally questionable character but seems to pass all the hero/pure heart tests.

 

I am now waiting to see if I can decide if I can watch this show if Snow is a ruined character.

 

And in regards to Zelana equals Marianne.  While it might make zero sense given how they wrote it and showed it - I called it at the end of last season.  Zelena's "death" was just too weird and I knew the only way they could make Outlaw Queen work was if Robin has a legit reason to walk away from Marianne.  I wish they had gone so far as to say it was never the real Marianne in the prison cell to begin with so that Regina would have been completely separated from Marianne's death in any timeline - because its still icky that Regina would have killed Marianne is events played out the right way.  But whatever, she's only written that way by the author anyway so who cares?

[FurryFury]

The Zelena as Marion honestly just reminds me of Dollhouse, at the very last second it turns out that Echo's best friend is actually some evil mastermind behind all the madness and it makes absolutely no sense regarding anything they showed and when interviewed about it, I think it was Tim Minear, he was like, oh yeah we decided it during the home stretch when we were finishing things, but don't worry it all adds up still. No, it doesn't add up. It's purely for shock value. That's not good storytelling.

 

I can't agree. While this was a retcon, it still made way more sense than Zelena as Marian and did add something to the story. I didn't love and didn't hate it - but I understand why the writers did what they did (in fact, this is probably the reason why I stan Whedon so much - 99% of the time, even if what he does doesn't quite work, I still understand his reasoning and decide I could actually make a similar choice in his shoes).

 

The writers are stepping on themselves here and don't seem to care that they are assassinating Snow & Charming because why? Because the writers wanted to show the "heroes" as having feet of clay. But this is far beyond having feet of clay. This is a knowingly malicious action with a dollop of no regrets, and that's not the same as having "feet of clay". This entire plot with Snowing's secret and the author plot are so poorly thought out and such a huge misfire that I'm left with the impression that the writers are actually trying to write bad, bad plots. In the past I thought they were trying to write good stories and, unfortunately, blew it 7 times out of 10. But now it's as if purposely writing bad plots is a challenge that they've accepted with zeal. *SMH*

 

Many of you probably know a well-known trope called "Draco in Leather Pants" (if you don't, look it up on TVTropes - yes, it will ruin your life, but you'll be glad for it). A lesser known trope is its opposite, "Ron the Death Eater" - purposeful derailment of a character usually in order to make another character (often a villain) look better. Unlike DILP, Ron the Death Eater isn't used that often in canon. However, I'd argue vilifying Snow and Charming is a great example of its canon use. Which only proves - once again - that Adam and Eddie have stooped as low as the worst fanfiction tropes... and that's probably not even the bottom.

Edited April 18, 2015 by FurryFury

[Camera One]

 But can you imagine the smack viewers who came for Frozen took when they started dirtying up Snow White and Prince Charming with ugly morals and dirty tricks?  And they really can't see why viewers wouldn't like this?

 

Unfortunately, few people on Twitter seem to care much about the Snow/Charming secret stuff.  I think to A&E, no social media response = people are happy with it.  To them, dirtying up Snow/Charming, is adding "complexity" which they interpret as a sign of how their writing is elevated above the normal fare.  They seem afraid that if they don't throw the various ships a bone, their viewership will drop, but they don't seem to feel having Snow/Charming stand in the background doing nothing (4A) or destroying their integrity (4B) has any effect.

Edited April 18, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

I managed to show great self restraint and only look at those two entries on TV Tropes. I think I deserve a cookie!

 

Anyway, I noticed that they give Regina as an example of Draco in Leather Pants (Hook is mentioned, but with the counter argument that his flaws are still considered problems he has to work through rather than whitewashed away, with him positioned as victim). I think they are going in the direction of Ron the Death Eater with Snow, especially if this arc leads to Emma buddying up to her true friend, Regina, when she can't trust her parents.

 

Wow, they really are writing bad fanfic. Well, I guess if you can get paid lots of money to write bad fanfic, more power to you.

[SilverShadow]

Many of probably know a well-known trope called "Draco in Leather Pants" (if you don't, look it up on TVTropes - yes, it will ruin your life, but you'll be glad for it). A lesser known trope is its opposite, "Ron the Death Eater" - purposeful derailment of a character usually in order to make another character (often a villain) look better. Unlike DILP, Ron the Death Eater isn't used that often in canon. However, I'd argue vilifying Snow and Charming is a great example of its canon use. Which only proves - once again - that Adam and Eddie have stooped as low as the worst fanfiction tropes... and that's probably not even the bottom.

 

Actually I could buy Ron going bad more than the Snowing nonsense, because there is actually some minor basis for it in canon. Ron has, from his introduction in Book 1, always had a big problem with jealousy. The two biggest examples being him deserting Harry in Goblet from when his name comes out and the big fight that ends with Ron leaving the camping trip from hell in Deathly Hallows. So if, in an alternate draft, Rowling had Ron not learn from his mistakes and instead had the jealousy spiral out of control etc. it could be done without it seeming straight the fuck out of nowhere.

 

This situation is like Rowling writing a new book, set after the Epilogue from Deathly Hallows and revealing that back in Book 5 Ron gave the Death Eaters information that lead to the death of someone Harry cared about, only that character turns out not to be dead, so it's still pretty terrible, but didn't actually kill anybody. Because morally gray characters are more interesting, right?

 

I can't even feel too upset about the Zelena twist because the Baby twist is taking up all my rage reserves. It's cheap hack writing that desperately wants to be cool and dark and complex without understanding the slightest thing about why those choices actually work in other shows.  

Edited April 18, 2015 by SilverShadow

[FurryFury]

Anyway, I noticed that they give Regina as an example of Draco in Leather Pants

 

Regina should be the poster child of Draco In Leather Pants on TV (at least in canon). Even Spike, as much as hate his treatment on later seasons of Buffy, never got as bad (and he had always that soul justification). Well, then there are shows like The Vampire Diaries which also manage to make mass murderers swoon worthy, but at least they aren't pretending they are about heroes (still hate that the made all the heroines except for Bonnie fall for these despicable people and excuse their deeds).

Edited April 18, 2015 by FurryFury

[Shanna Marie]

This situation is like Rowling writing a new book, set after the Epilogue from Deathly Hallows and revealing that back in Book 5 Ron gave the Death Eaters information that lead to the death of someone Harry cared about, only that character turns out not to be dead, so it's still pretty terrible, but didn't actually kill anybody.

And we're supposed to believe that Ron was torn up with feeling guilty about this, had been carrying this terrible secret all this time, was terrified that Harry and Hermione would find out, and had sworn after that incident that he would really live his life as a hero and be super extra good from that point forward -- never mind that there wasn't even the slightest hint in the books that any of this had been going on. Though at least in those books, they were entirely from Harry's point of view and Harry could be pretty dense, so he might not have noticed Ron dying inside.

 

On this show, we can see these characters objectively. We've seen both Snow and Charming alone and alone with each other. We've seen them at the first realization that they were expecting another child, when they were alone with each other and probably would have discussed what happened with their first child. Actually, Charming had epic nightmares about losing Emma and whether he could be a father this time, and there wasn't the slightest suggestion that he had any worries about what would become of Baby Do-Over, who was also a product of True Love. They faced having yet another child taken away at birth and never showed signs of fearing that they had it coming because of what they'd done.

[nksarmi]

Unfortunately, few people on Twitter seem to care much about the Snow/Charming secret stuff.  I think to A&E, no social media response = people are happy with it.  To them, dirtying up Snow/Charming, is adding "complexity" which they interpret as a sign of how their writing is elevated above the normal fare.  They seem afraid that if they don't throw the various ships a bone, their viewership will drop, but they don't seem to feel having Snow/Charming stand in the background doing nothing (4A) or destroying their integrity (4B) has any effect.

And yet viewership has been cut in half.  Perhaps they should consider that the casual viewer - the ones you lose the easiest - are the ones least likely to be on Twitter telling you why you lost them.  They just change channels and move on to the next show.

[nksarmi]

And we're supposed to believe that Ron was torn up with feeling guilty about this, had been carrying this terrible secret all this time, was terrified that Harry and Hermione would find out, and had sworn after that incident that he would really live his life as a hero and be super extra good from that point forward -- never mind that there wasn't even the slightest hint in the books that any of this had been going on. Though at least in those books, they were entirely from Harry's point of view and Harry could be pretty dense, so he might not have noticed Ron dying inside.

 

On this show, we can see these characters objectively. We've seen both Snow and Charming alone and alone with each other. We've seen them at the first realization that they were expecting another child, when they were alone with each other and probably would have discussed what happened with their first child. Actually, Charming had epic nightmares about losing Emma and whether he could be a father this time, and there wasn't the slightest suggestion that he had any worries about what would become of Baby Do-Over, who was also a product of True Love. They faced having yet another child taken away at birth and never showed signs of fearing that they had it coming because of what they'd done.

We would also have to believe that Ron could keep that secret and show no guilt for it all the while being established as a character who can't keep secrets, thinks the truth will always set you free, was in a cave of secrets that reveals your deepest/darkest secret and this didn't come out, and had been established to have a "pure" heart and pass ever hero test around even after this deed was done. 

[myril]

I don't get why they can't do it like TVD and The Originals, and have flashbacks 4-5 times a season. So, when they happen, they're fresh and exciting for the audience, and they have more time to explore the current storylines.

 

I understand why they use the technique the way they do -- it's a very Lost thing to do, which makes sense considering where A&E came from. The flashbacks aren't an issue when it comes to telling the story in the current timeline. The problem is that the current timeline is stuffed with fluff. Cut out a bunch of extra stuff there and it would all be much better. It's like the writers are getting paid by how many storylines they can tell in one episode so they stuff them full.

 

You're right, the flashback are not themselves the problems, but think they are less of a well used story tool than a  cover up of weaknesses of the overall writing on this show. Found this interesting blog post commenting A&E use of flashbacks on the show.

 

Basically it's saying: A&E use what they learned on a great show (Lost) but don't know how to master it.

 

The post was written in season 1, and I wonder what the writer would say now, seeing that season 1 was the best season so far. A main issue the post talks about is lack of self-awareness of the characters on Once. Now it does of course acknowledge that the characters at that point (season 1) were meant to be not self-aware, forgetting their selves was part of the curse, and that the flashbacks were meant to show how tragic or funny the lack of knowing about their own past in this case was. While the audience knew about both worlds, most characters did not, and it was emotionally touching for the audience that beloved fairy tale characters were not aware of who they are. Nevertheless the author sees a problem in lack of self-awareness, that there was little good connection between the two worlds, no emotional challenge for the characters in it, at best for the audience.

 

From the post:

 

 

Horowitz and Kitsis use the flashback structure to conjure symmetry and emotional responses from the audience, but don’t really do anything to earn it. (...)  Instead of methodically using subtext and theme to draw parallels and feelings together, Once just throws it all out there and expects you to care. And to make matters worse, Horowitz and Kitsis have the full use of recognizable characters, which makes their approach even “easier.”  Therefore, when MM and David kiss, you’re supposed to care because duh, that’s Snow White and Prince Charming. The series doesn’t earn it, though.

 

While it might have worked to some degree in season 1 for sure that lack of self-awareness was problematic on the long run. At some point the characters had to remember. Graham did, and it was quite a powerful moment. Remembering the reactions of A&E, and how they still pretty much ignore the consequences of it, makes me think, that the writers were though rather surprised by the impact of that moment on their audience, the character Graham had thereafter because of it (aside that Jamie is a good looking guy, think he only became a fan favorite after this episode because of what happened to him).

 

The writers broke the curse at the end of season 1, and though that came as a surprise to much of the audience, it was the right choice of them. It could have eventually worked as well to take a slower approach and let the characters more gradually remember, using first half of season 2 for that, and then fire up things with the Emma and Company trying to find a way to finally break the curse once and for all and for everybody, but it was never something they could have dragged on for seasons.

 

Looking back at season 1 some of the best scenes were though, when Rumple and Regina were interacting while it was somewhat ambiguous how much any of them remembered or knew. August knew and thus brought a new interesting element to Storybrooke. The Mad Hater was probably so intriguing because he knew a lot of things as well. And Henry worked during that season as character, because he and his book were the main connection between the different worlds.

 

It was probably though telling of the shortcomings of the writing already at this time in season 1, that they worked around Belle and Rumple in the present by isolating Belle as Regina's prisoner in the lunatic ward in the cellar of the hospital as a person with blank memory. Maybe they just didn't dare to actually kill her, one of the loved Disney princesses, that it would have been too evil, to let Regina kill her. But what was the point of Regina keeping Belle locked up without being able to gloat over Rumple's pain for having lost her? Oddly though it made somewhat sense as long as Regina was written as smart evil queen, able to do some long time scheming. It didn't made much sense anymore after what the writers did to Regina in season 2, when she turned into more of a moody, impulsive, bratty wannabe evil queen formed by a man, by Rumple, and less and less a master of her own choices. To me Regina is one of the first victims of an increasingly repetitive, mediocre writing not knowing how to work emotional consequences. Could say Belle as well, but think she never really got out of that blunt, mindless sleeping beauty status the writers symbolically put her into in the first place. No surprise there that Belle spent parts of season 4 already sleeping again.

 

Breaking the curse was right, but there was not much change in self-awareness after the curse broke, and that became a major issue for the show. That the writers didn't explore much the characters becoming self-aware again of their former, Enchanted Forest or fairy tale selves while realizing what has happened to them for 28 years and where they were, all the ignorance towards possible tensions of two different identities, was the big disappointment for me with season 2. The not well explored Regina-Cora relationship and the messed up Home Office plot was more the bad icing on top of an already tasteless cake. The excitement to be able to go to Neverland and the rush to get there made A&E miss out on great drama - and there was no way to get back to that later.  They made a big mistake there. They might have had something different on mind first (still wonder what their plans with Red or Dr. Whale were), but got carried away like kids get carried away being given a new toy they so wanted to play with.

 

And the writers kept struggling to make connections between the different worlds (our world and all the fairy tale worlds) on an emotional level through and for the characters. It worked somewhat maybe with Pan and Rumple, although the Pied Piper copy was a total waste of time, but certainly they missed out on the chances to dig more into Bealfire/Neal and Hook. And throwing in Ariel for an episode did nothing for any character or story that couldn't have been done better otherwise (a fate she now shares with Ursula IMO, how ironic).

 

The worst episode in season 3 wasting flashbacks and then even consequently the emotional moments of the present time, was Lost Girl , and I think it was the worst of all seasons so far. It somewhat surprises me, that this episode is a favorite of some fans, for me it is nearly as bad as Breaking Glass - guess fans of Emma are just that desperate to find episodes with good Emma stuff in it. We got bored with another flashback plot of Regina and Snow, Regina making a tempting offer to Snow (being left in peace with her family if she would give up the claim for the throne). Although one could eventually with some good will find a faint parallel between Snow's emotional ordeal back in the past and Emma's emotional struggle in the present, it was the worst waste of flashback plot they've done. That was the episode to bring up Emma's past in our world again, her foster time. That could have been the episode to give some ground and seed a hunch, that maybe there was more going on even in foster time, if maybe there were even then connections already to the EF - well, if they had had such ideas at that point, which probably was not the case. Still they could have made it somewhat mysterious, ambiguous, to open doors for future but not yet existing ideas. One way or the other this episode needed Emma flashbacks to build up her emotional landscape and make it more comprehensible for the audience. The writers messed that totally up - and IMO Emma's character development still suffers from that miss. Add the disaster of the Echo caves.

 

They could have saved things a bit in season 3B, but don't get me started about that season. What a waste of a great storybook world, what a waste and butchering of characters, what a pile of useless flashbacks, what a waste of half a season. Self-awareness? What self-awareness? What a twist to make the characters forget themselves again for a while. Very convenient if you have little clue how to work with self-aware characters with actual emotional turmoils and challenges. What a reboot, indeed. Imitate season 1 just do things maybe more obvious this time - and it became more obvious that the memory loss and the flashback were no great story telling tool but a tool to try to cover up some of the shows fundamental weaknesses. All they did was that they buried emotional drama in the sands of time, be it the relationship of Emma with her parents, of Henry and Regina, of Emma and Hook, the emotional pain Belle should have felt following Rumple's sacrifice and him becoming a tool of Zelena kinda with the help of Belle, the loss of Neal, the anger eventually of some of the peasants to have been going throw that crap of world displacing and memory loss again, not to mention the beginning relationship of Regina and Robin... Nope, we got crazy green Zelena and her family issues instead, but the powers forbid, not too much real emotional impact there either.

 

It didn't get better in season 4, the writers still have mostly no clue how to work with characters being self-aware and develop their relations and drama in the present by connecting with the past through flashbacks, although they did a slightly better job with Elsa. They still seldom earn emotional moments through their writings on screen, neither in the flashbacks nor in the present and certainly not in a connection between those. If something works it's more thanks to the cast and even prop department efforts, they create connections, and sometimes even without knowing which are there (oh, no can't tell you anything, top secret - mistaking surprise as suspense). Gosh, I think Elizabeth Mitchell deserves an award for what she made out of so little, and looks like Victoria Smurfit might now be equal in that. Not even with Frozen the flashbacks worked that well, regardless how much I enjoyed the acting of the actors they brought in for Frozen. Inserting Anna into David's and Belle's story was the most ridiculous. Or was it inserting David and Belle into Anna's story?

 

Sometimes wonder if the writers think, actual emotional impact and consequences would demand too much of their audience. The flashbacks at this point seem to make things even worse, but they always have been more of a crutch than a well used story telling tool. But what would be left of the show without them? It could be the only thing that still keeps this show entertaining for much of the audience. Plus maybe that the show is pretty much the only more or less family friendly not all dark fairy tale show on TV around at the time, a nice supplement while waiting for the next fairy tale movie.

[YaddaYadda]

The worst episode in season 3 wasting flashbacks and then even consequently the emotional moments of the present time, was Lost Girl , and I think it was the worst of all seasons so far. It somewhat surprises me, that this episode is a favorite of some fans, for me it is nearly as bad as Breaking Glass - guess fans of Emma are just that desperate to find episodes with good Emma stuff in it.

 

Probably.  There were things that I was waiting to hear from Emma and Lost Girl sort of fulfilled that for me but also left me on my appetite.  I honestly don't care for any of the EF flashbacks, I think they're mostly a waste of time at this point.  I don't care about learning about Snow/Regina's fight, round 20,000 because there's nothing left to mine there.  So while Lost Girl had those Snow/Regina flashbacks, what I was more interested in was the present day stuff.

 

I find most episodes to be mediocre at best, but what sucks me in is when an episode manages to hit the emotional note.  I thought Going Home was awesome, but when I rewatched it, I thought it was just okayish, but there was like a 5 minute where it hit that right emotional note with me.  So Emma standing in main street being told that she has to go and she doesn't want to because she just found her family, but her son will be all alone if she goes and her standing at the town line and that 30 seconds with Hook or Regina telling her she'll have what she always wanted and it will be like she was never separated from Henry...yeah, that makes me emotional because I'm a total sap and I live for stuff like that.

 

The show lost its way in all the flash and the jazz and whatever else.

Edited April 19, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[FurryFury]

I like Lost Girl because it was one of the true Emma centric episodes and focused on something that hasn't been explored at all - her issues with her parents. I also happened to like the flashbacks because I personally see a lot of the same "return of the king" story with both Snow and the Arthurian mythos and I was thrilled about Excalibur stuff (to bad they've ruined it). If the show really went into the Camelot stuff in an unpredictable way, making Snow Arthur would have been the most natural thing, really.

[Dani-Ellie]

My issue with the flashbacks in "Lost Girl" wasn't so much with the flashbacks in and of themselves. It was the placement of those flashbacks within that particular episode. Like myril said above, if we're going to get a present day story about how Emma still feels like the orphan she grew up as, shouldn't we have actually seen Emma growing up as an orphan so we would have an idea where she was coming from?

 

I'm not saying I needed half an episode's worth of Wee Emma's abuse and neglect (because holy crap, that would be a bit heavy for 8pm on a Sunday) but throw us a bone, here, writers. If you want the audience to understand where a character's issues are coming from, you need to show us those issues. I do think Jennifer Morrison does an exceptional job of infusing Emma's interactions in the present with those lonely, awful childhood memories that Emma would have but for me, that's a case of the actor elevating the material, not the material succeeding on its own merits.

 

I get that they were trying to parallel Snow's journey of self-discovery with Emma's, and in a different episode, I would have really enjoyed that. But this was the second episode of season freakin' three, and it was the first time we were really delving into Emma's issues beyond just motivation for her present mindset. I was really kind of expecting to see some of the "this is why she is the way she is" stuff we've seen with all the other characters.

 

I don't know why the writers seem to be so allergic to showing Emma's past. As we've seen, it doesn't have to be super-long or super-heavy. I thought that flashback at the top of "Snow Drifts" was very effective, and all it was was Wee Emma standing there with tears in her eyes, watching some other little girl drive away with new parents, presumably to her happy ending. So in "Lost Girl," why not show a little blonde kid sitting by herself at lunch because she's the new girl, or wistfully watching a family playing together at a park? There are ways to get the point across without veering into SVU territory. I just dun get it.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Dani-Ellie

[Zuleikha]

I don't know why the writers seem to be so allergic to showing Emma's past. As we've seen, it doesn't have to be super-long or super-heavy.

Because they didn't want to cast a young Emma until they had a longer need for her, and they didn't want to show young Emma unless it could be tied into the Enchanted Forest stuff. We got young Emma flashbacks when the writers decided on Ingrid and Lily.

 

I'm also so not interested in young Emma flashbacks. I don't feel they show us anything we don't already know, and they either feel like an unfair intrusion of the Enchanted Forest in Emma's life or like I got switched into another show that I have no interest in watching (Lily/Emma flashbacks). I did love the one scene of teen Emma with tears in her eyes watching the young, blonde girl go with the family. That was brief and effective, and would have been great in Lost Girl. But that scene is pretty much all there is, IMHO. 

 

A&E use what they learned on a great show (Lost) but don't know how to master it.

I disagree with that article. I found the s1 flashbacks to be just as effective as Lost's s1 flashbacks. Both series had (or in the case of Once are having) problems using the narrative device in the long term. 

[Dani-Ellie]

Because they didn't want to cast a young Emma until they had a longer need for her, and they didn't want to show young Emma unless it could be tied into the Enchanted Forest stuff. We got young Emma flashbacks when the writers decided on Ingrid and Lily.

 

I don't know about that. What's so hard about finding a little blonde kid to hire for a couple flashbacks for one episode? They cast three little girls for one scene to be Wee Ingrid, Wee Helga, and Wee Gerda. I didn't need for the flashbacks to be a huge, in-depth look into Emma's past, but when your main present day story is how a character still feels like an orphan, I do think it's prudent to show the character being an orphan. This is a television show. It's supposed to show me, not tell me.

 

I'm also so not interested in young Emma flashbacks. I don't feel they show us anything we don't already know, and they either feel like an unfair intrusion of the Enchanted Forest in Emma's life or like I got switched into another show that I have no interest in watching (Lily/Emma flashbacks).

 

That may be all well and good for some of the audience, but as an Emma fan, I frankly think it sucks that we're at the last three-quarters of season four, and we still don't know a hell of a lot about Emma's past. The flashbacks could show us stuff we don't already know if they would give them to us. Was it all bad or were there actually nice families that she had to leave for one reason or another? Because having good times taken away from her is just as important to Emma's development as having all bad times. We know she ran away from Ingrid but were there other families where she thought these people might be her forever home only to have that hope ripped from her? Was there a special teacher who ever tried to reach her, like Mary Margaret Blanchard with Henry?

 

And as an Emma fan, I think it sucks that in eighty-something episodes, we've had five episodes that had any Emma flashbacks at all (and two of those episodes had a single flashback each). It's a character balancing problem for me. "Lost Girl" was just a wasted opportunity. It gave us round eleventy-seven of Regina vs. Snow when it could have fleshed out the present-day issues they wrote their character facing.

[Mari]

I didn't need for the flashbacks to be a huge, in-depth look into Emma's past, but when your main present day story is how a character still feels like an orphan, I do think it's prudent to show the character being an orphan. This is a television show. It's supposed to show me, not tell me.

Plus, it creates a story imbalance.  We're shown every single minute of Regina/Snow interaction in the past.  We know why they have those issues, and when done properly, it clears up why they react they way they do, and often creates sympathy for the character.  Understanding why a character is the way he/she is usually fosters and sense of connection from the audience to the character.

 

By almost completely ignoring Emma's background, it creates a vacuum where the audience imagines--or doesn't imagine--what it was like.  It makes Emma harder to relate to, it makes it harder for the audience (in general) to connect to her, and makes more of her actions seem cold and unreasonable.

 

If the writers can find time to show us Enchanted Forest Regina/Snow threatening each other 8,928,374 times, they can find time to show us the occasional little Emma flashback;  especially when it directly relates to what's going on at the time.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Mari

[Camera One]

"Lost Girl" is still one of my favorite episodes despite the retread Snow/Regina stuff in the flashbacks.  Because it was one of the first times they really focused on Emma post-Curse, dealing with ramifications like gaining magic and for one of the first time having her reflect on her childhood, albeit for a few minute.  That Snow/Emma scene was one of the few true mother/daughter talks they have had in four freak'in seasons of this show.  After "Lost Girl", they basically segregated Charming and Snow to the dreamshade/baby stuff, and Emma to the love triangle with Hook/Neal, with very unsubstantial crossovers. 

 

I agree with the point that they tried to do too much in that single episode, but it's because of their inane method of character allotment for episodes.  This might have been how they mapped out 3A: "So writing team, Ep 1 is general intro.  We need one episode for Regina, one episode for Rumple, one episode for Hook, so let's just give one episode to Emma/Snow/Charming, split Snow in flashback and Emma in present-day."  They could have done one full episode on Emma with the Lost Boys triggering memories of her own childhood, and her evolving relationship with her parents.  Then, another episode on her feelings about magic and confidence in using it.  Meanwhile, Snow could have had an episode on confidence issues which did not necessarily need to revisit the time period with Regina.  There could have an episode where Charming and Snow decided they wanted to have a baby and them taking the idea to Emma.  They could have given Charming a centric where he dealt with the Dreamshade stuff, and maybe how he dealt with becoming royalty even though he grew up a shepherd and Snow helping him gain confidence in flashback.   Not all of these required a full episode.  But they could have been addressed in the B and C plots, if those were more often used for true character growth (like they often tried to do on "Lost" in the early seasons).  Instead, the B and C plots on this show are usually throw-aways, time fillers, or even worse, "review" for the audience (aka 4A with the Operation Mongoose Review session with Henry for C plots).

 

Just because an episode isn't someone's centric doesn't mean they can't address true character development in the lesser plots.  Even when the entire episode centered around a character or a relationship, they often squander it.  I mean, the Pied Piper episode could have been about Neal's escape from Neverland and how he became the adult Neal, since that would inform the Rumple/Neal relationship so much better. 

[YaddaYadda]

The Lost Girl talk between Snow and Emma was originally supposed to be between Emma and Hook from some discussions we've had in the past.  I don't know if it's worst that it happened between Snow and Emma since we got the Echo Caves afterwards where that whole convo was forgotten by Snow.

[Camera One]

I don't think it's worse.  Without it, we would have gotten zero Snow/Emma deep conversation post-S2.  Since "Lost Girl" was supposed to parallel Snow/Emma's lack of confidence in themselves, it made sense for them to have that conversation.  We got enough Emma/Hook the rest of the season.  I remember the actresses mentioning they loved that scene, and they played it beautifully.

 

As for Snow forgetting the whole conversation by Echo Caves, clearly the writers decided they had checked off Snow/Emma for the season and moved on (as per usual, look at "The Snow Queen" and then "Smash the Mirror"... the Emma/Snow relationship was an afterthought).  The only way I can reconcile it is Snow decided that she was going to stop putting her expectations on Emma, and to love Emma for Emma, and to put her prior expectations to a new baby.  That is a more healthy way of dealing with the loss of the 28 years and it's more fair to Emma, since she has grown up and her personality has been formed, due to the Dark Curse.  Now, if only the writers had more fully articulated this, by giving an episode to Snow explaining to Emma what she meant and apologizing to her for how hurtful the words came out in the Echo Caves, and a full episode to Snow/Charming/Emma deciding how they were going to deal with Charming never leaving Neverland, but clearly, the writers were more interested in writing the love triangle instead.  

Edited April 19, 2015 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

We got enough Emma/Hook the rest of the season.  I remember the actresses mentioning they loved that scene, and they played it beautifully.

 

All I was saying was that the Echo Caves negated that conversation in Lost Girl.  When you're telling your daughter you don't want her to feel like an orphan and it's her job that she doesn't feel that way and then turn around and say that your grown up daughter isn't what you signed up for...negates whatever progress was made.

 

Don't get me wrong, I get where Snow is coming from, but still.

[Camera One]

I know what you mean.  The writers undid their own work, and trashed it over and over again.

[FurryFury]

All I was saying was that the Echo Caves negated that conversation in Lost Girl.

 

It's a common thing for the show. On its own, Snow killing Cora was a brilliant twist in The Miller's Daughter, but the dark spot stuff has completely ruined it. This is why I try to judge the episodes on their own, otherwise, the ensuing awfulness will ruin most good things about them.

[Rumsy4]

The Lost Girl talk between Snow and Emma was originally supposed to be between Emma and Hook from some discussions we've had in the past.  I don't know if it's worst that it happened between Snow and Emma since we got the Echo Caves afterwards where that whole convo was forgotten by Snow.

 

In a way, it might have been better if they had stuck to their original plan. It makes Hook's drive to save stubborn idiot David's life even more meaningful. Hook had nailed Emma as a Lost Girl all the way back in Tallahassee, so Emma confessing to him that she's always felt like an orphan flows with their blossoming intimacy in Neverland, and builds on Hook's desire to save her father's life. Even later on, Emma has felt more comfortable sharing issues about her past and things from her childhood with Hook more than with her parents.  

 

Having Snow have this conversation makes Snow's subsequent sidelining of Emma stand out all that more. If Snow had been shown to be conflicted about leaving or staying in Neverland, it would have substantiated Snow's promise to not make Emma feel like an orphan. Instead, Snow decides to stay in Neverland with Charming without even considering Emma in the equation. So, by itself, the Snow/Emma conversation was a wonderful moment. The same way, Snow telling Charming that she would be happy to stay in Neverland with him is a lovely scene reinforcing their love for each other. But these moments fail taken in the context of Emma's relationship with her parents.

[Mathius]

I must point out that another issue with Emma flashbacks is that the writers can't think of more than one idea. All three of her flashbacks were the same damn plot: she meets someone, opens her heart to them, they betray her somehow. The names change (Neal, Lily, Ingrid) and the circumstances of the relationships and betrayal differ, but it's still essentially the same development over and over again.

[myril]

Don't find them that inventive and diverse with Regina flashback either, she just got some more of them.

[tennisgurl]

That`s the problem with the flashbacks in general. No matter how many bog events happened in someones life, no matter how exciting their back story is, eventually you just start treading water. Its why Lost eventually had to start with the flash sideways instead. Even they realized the flash backs needed something different. 

 

And this show has a smaller cast than Lost (at least it does now that its forgotten most of its supporting characters), so its running dry even faster. 

[Curio]

I came across this article over at Entertainment Weekly the other day and thought it was pretty applicable to Once right now.

 

On Mad Men and the waitress: Can you ruin a final season by adding too many characters?

 

Even though Once isn't in its final season, I don't necessarily see it lasting too much longer beyond Season 5. If ratings are anything to go by, I could see next season as its last. But still, the writers have always struggled with adding too many characters into this show no matter what season it is, and it amazes me that the writers still don't get what the fans mean when we say we want to focus on the "core" characters. From that article:

 

The problem is that there aren’t many episodes of Mad Men left, and this character we’ve just met is taking up precious time that could be devoted to people we’ve spent the past eight years caring about.

 

How many times have we said, "Character X is taking away precious story time from our main characters?" This is the biggest issue with Once right now in my opinion. They keep bringing in random characters who never stay on longer than 11 episodes before they disappear. They get multiple episodes devoted to their stories while the main characters we've spent years getting attached to become side characters in their own show. It's frustrating and a trend that the writers refuse to let go of. Just take a look at all of the secondary characters the writers are focusing on in 4B:

 

• Maleficent
• Cruella
• Ursula
• The Author (aka Isaac)
• Zelena/Marian
• And next week's promo shows that Lily is coming back in a big way.

 

That's a lot. Each of those side characters essentially got their own centric, except for Cruella and Isaac who had to share one. That's six non-main-characters who got episodes devoted to them, and that's not even including the episode where Maleficent, Cruella, and Ursula went trekking through the forest with Snow and Charming. That's basically half of your 11-episode season right there all focusing on secondary characters. The writers think they're still giving the main characters their due by throwing the season regulars into those villain flashbacks, but the only one where I thought that was successful was Hook being integrated into Ursula's story. But the network still promoted that episode as Ursula's big story, not Hook's. 

 

Listen, secondary characters are essential to storytelling, but it's getting out of control on this show. I honestly don't even know if the writers have it in them to do an 11-episode arc that features only the main players. And the sad thing is, there are plenty of main characters to focus on. With Emma, Hook, Charming, Snow, Rumple, Regina, Belle, Will, and Robin, that's nine main characters you can spend an 11-episode arc on, with each character getting their own centric. That leaves 2 episodes to do a neutral two-part finale that focuses on everyone. There's plenty of stories left (well, to varying degrees) for each main character. Let's actually explore them instead of having to throw in random centric episodes about characters no one gives two shits about.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Curio

[Rumsy4]

It's evident that A&E have an ADHD style writing when it comes to characters and plots. They want throw in everything including the kitchen sink into the narrative. I wonder if they would do better with an American Horror Story kind of format. Basically, they would reboot the show every half season. The same actors would play different characters in each arc, and they could bring in guest characters for supporting roles. That may even fit well with their current theme of different realms being story realms. Of course this would work better with shorter seasons.

[FurryFury]

Not really. Many people had thought that anthology format would help Ryan Murphy (the creator of AHS and other TV shows) because he also suffers from a similar problem...But AHS has never been really brilliant, and the last 2 seasons are basically awful. Having ideas and developing them are two different things, and the latter thing matters both in a 13-episodes season and in continuous storytelling.