Small Talk: The Quiver

[Carrie Ann]

Ausiello confirmed that

NB

was the actress in the blind item.

 

That was a different BI than the one we were talking about earlier today, though it doesn't exclude that one also being about NB.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Well, then, I guess I'm out, too. I was pissed when Sleepy Hollow killed off a character last week. But this death. Yup, I'm out. 

[Coop33]

Wow, I'm a half a dozen episodes behind, but I don't know that I'll even bother now. What a disappointment. 

[Carrie Ann]

Wow, I'm a half a dozen episodes behind, but I don't know that I'll even bother now. What a disappointment. 

 

Definitely do not bother. I've been a casual viewer at best since midway thru S2--fast-forwarding through a good portion of the show (I pretty much only watched Crane/Abbie, Joe/Jenny, Jenny/Abbie scenes and everything else was FF'd), and I don't think there was much of anything worth seeing, and especially not at this point, knowing how it ends.

[Guest]

Glad I dropped the show in season 2.

[Chaser]

I stopped watching in S2 but I had always planned on binging one day. That's off the table. I can't believe how this show imploded. The Lead's dynamic was the show. The whole reason the crazy plot actually worked.

[catrox14]

Guys, I'm just .....this is just so sad and infuriating at the same time. And I wondered if that blind from Ausiello was about Abbie when they had Ichabod by the headstone...but I talked myself out of it. 

 

I'm more upset with how they are trying to have their cake and kill it too than actually killing the cake (which is bad enough) but still

[Morrigan2575]

That was a different BI than the one we were talking about earlier today, though it doesn't exclude that one also being about NB.

Correct that's a totally different Blind Item and, you're right it doesn't preclude her. However, based on the THR article I'm thinking the issue wasn't NB being Bonkers.

Based on this my gut is saying that the issue had more to do with the way the show/network treated the two leads.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/sleepy-hollow-nicole-beharie-exits-882206

Again no inside knowledge just gut feeling. I think NB was hired first and either signed on as the lead of the show or very least an expected 50/50 co-lead. Instead Mison/Crane emerges as the breakout star gets more attention/publicity and the show starts to drift away from Abbie focused or shared Witness focused to Crane Family Drama.

Then in S3, Mison negotiates for less work and now he's renegotiating his contract for S4 (more money)

Crane Family Drama.

Then in S3, Mison negotiates for less work and now he's renegotiating his contract for S4 (more money). I'm guessing NB was tired of being treated as second fiddle and either quit or tried to stand up for herself and got fired.

In a way this reminds me a lot of Gillian Anderson's issues/treatment with The X-Files. Of course this is all just speculation but, it feels right.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[catrox14]

Guys, I'm just .....this is just so sad and infuriating at the same time. And I wondered if that blind from Ausiello was about Abbie when they had Ichabod by the headstone...but I talked myself out of it. 

 

I'm more upset with how they are trying to have their cake and kill it too than actually killing the cake (which is bad enough) but still

[statsgirl]

That was a different BI than the one we were talking about earlier today, though it doesn't exclude that one also being about NB.

The Blind Gossip site linked to TVline so I assumed that it was.

[Sakura12]

That BI was the a show is killing of their lead character in the finale. 

 

The other BI is the bonkers leading lady.

[catrox14]

Correct that's a totally different Blind Item and, you're right it doesn't preclude her but based on that's THR article I'm thinking the issue wasn't NB being Bonkers.

Based on this my gut is saying that the issue had more to do with the way the show/network treated the two leads.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/sleepy-hollow-nicole-beharie-exits-882206

Again no inside knowledge just gut feeling. I think NB was hired first and either signed on as the lead of the show or very least an expected 50/50 co-lead. Instead Mison/Crane emerges as the breakout star gets more attention/publicity and the show starts to drift away from Abbie focused or shared Witness focused to Crane Family Drama.

Then in S3, Mison negotiates for less work and now he's renegotiating his contract for S4 (more money)

Crane Family Drama.

Then in S3, Mison negotiates for less work and now he's renegotiating his contract for S4 (more money). I'm guessing NB was tired of being treated as second fiddle and either quit or tried to stand up for herself and got fired.

In a way this reminds me a lot of Gillian Anderson's issues/treatment with The X-Files. Of course this is all just speculation but, it feels right.

 

 

I don't think there was any enmity between Nicole and Mison. And I would argue that Mison was  a bit more breakout but it was Mark Goffman that ran that ship into the ground because of the boner he had for Katia Winter. ThMison said repeatedly in s1 how much he loved working with Nicole.  The show was intentionally moving from the Two Witnesses and running from Ichabbie like it was a disease.  They brought in John Noble which was great until they turned him into the Cranes son...(OMG THAT WAS STUPID). And most of it was to make Katia into the female lead even to the expense of the Ichabod. They destroyed Ichabod and Abbie for Katrina.

[Morrigan2575]

I don't think there was any enmity between Nicole and Mison. And I would argue that Mison was  a bit more breakout but it was Mark Goffman that ran that ship into the ground because of the boner he had for Katia Winter. ThMison said repeatedly in s1 how much he loved working with Nicole.  The show was intentionally moving from the Two Witnesses and running from Ichabbie like it was a disease.  They brought in John Noble which was great until they turned him into the Cranes son...(OMG THAT WAS STUPID). And most of it was to make Katia into the female lead even to the expense of the Ichabod. They destroyed Ichabod and Abbie for Katrina.

I didn't say there was animity between the actors. I was talking about how the show/network treated to two leads.

[Coop33]

The list of behind-the-scenes tell-all books I need is getting longer.

[catrox14]

I didn't say there was animity between the actors. I was talking about how the show/network treated to two leads.

 

I don't know that it's even that they treated the leads differently as much as Goffman wanted Katrina to be the lead even more than Ichabod. Ichabod was turned into an unpleasant unlikeable character to elevate Katia Winter. That was what I was trying to get at. 

[calliope1975]

I stopped watching in S2 but I had always planned on binging one day. That's off the table. I can't believe how this show imploded. The Lead's dynamic was the show. The whole reason the crazy plot actually worked.

 

I quit SH midway through S2 when it became clear it had drifted oceans away from the show I signed up for in S1. I knew it was bad when NB called the show/network out on not asking her to provide episode commentaries, and Orlando Jones has never been quiet about how he was treated. Even the weird way they were promoting Betsy Ross' actress over other series regulars at Cons was odd. I don't know that I've ever seen a show implode so quickly. What a mess. I'm glad NB's free, and even though I quit watching many moons ago, it's a shame that initial promise was thrown away. 

[Primal Slayer]

Lord another show Ill be dropping if it manages to come back. I really wonder if she was forced out or left on her own accord. I know she had plenty of problems bts with the producers, most notably them not even inviting her to their commentary for S2 dvd. 

[millennium]

The writers have failed this show.

 

The only Arrow I'll be following anymore is the one pointing to the exit.

[FurryFury]

I seriously suspect there was way more behind the screen drama than just racism or Goffman's love for Katia Winter. But then, I remember my post in that forum being freakin' edited by a mod when I had tried to suggest this a year ago. Looks like I was right, Goffman was only a part of a problem, if that.

 

I'd love to read the true story about what happened.

 

Still glad I've opted out after s1.

[kismet]

So was last night the season (most likely series) finale of Sleepy Hollow? I got home late from long day at work to turn on my recording and watched the most boring 30min of TV and then the most infuriating 30min because I realized what was happening with one of the characters. I'm really disappointed in the show. They moved so far from the premise of the show and then shuffling of characters was discouraging.

 

I'm really bummed that they discarded Ichabod/Abbie chemistry in favor of crappy plot for 1.5 seasons. I don't need my leads romantically together, but when a duo has chemistry like they had - it's dumb to try to force it out of scenes by separating them and bringing in other characters. I/A could have just been friends, I would have been fine with that, it was watching them interact & sizzle that got me interested in the show. It's a shame the writers chose to ignore it by putting them in separate plot trajectories.

 

I guess if showrunners and writers are not going to move forward with a popular coupling and willfully keep them apart even as scene partners than

killing one of them is probably the way to go. I'm pissed because I liked Abbie and would have preferred they not kill her.

But I'm not sure I could have watched another season with them keeping I/A apart from each other from entire plots/arcs because they are worrisome of their chemistry or unable to utilize it. The chemistry of I/A for me was not just romantic, in fact I rarely found it romantic. But is was powerful & the dynamic sizzled and for me carried the show. I loved watching them banter. They could have become romantic and I would have been fine with it. Likewise, they could have remained platonic and I probably would have been ok with it. But I need them to be together as partners, as a duo, as the witnesses without their dynamic the show for me was just an average (if not worse) show.

 

 

What is this kill off your characters season? I know shows are always killing off characters. It just seems a bit excessive this year or it's just happening on the shows I watch/watched. 

I think its become the trendy thing to do... It works for some shows and others just try to copy it to varying degrees of success. It is also a very convenient way for shows to alter their casts & budgets while still being "true" to the story. They consider it ballsy & bold, when really if everyone is doing it isn't it just predictable & a little cliche?. Frankly, I'm feeling a little fatigued from it. I don't mind characters leaving but there's always one-way tickets no need for caskets & gravestones if a show is done with a character. The killing off for me has lost its power and originality.

[Morrigan2575]

It is the season finale, FOX has dropoed multiple hints that they are in talks with the show runners for S4.

[Sakura12]

It is strange now, that the bold move a show can make is to not kill off a character. 

[looptab]

If you look at Tvline's chart for sweeps, it has an alarming number of deaths and 'possible' deaths.

[millennium]

I gave up on Sleepy Hollow in season two.   The whole John Noble storyline.   Way to destroy a good show.

[BkWurm1]

Game of Thrones has a lot to answer for.

[statsgirl]

MG should send the Sleepy Hollow producers a gift basket, they've managed to take the heat off him for killing Laurel.

 

It is the season finale, FOX has dropoed multiple hints that they are in talks with the show runners for S4.

I wonder if they're going to take into account audience reaction to this move.  IIRC they were thinking of cancelling it after the mess that was the Crane Family Drama last season and then decided to give it another chance with a new show-runner.  But ratings haven't picked up that much, have they?

[TwistedandBored]

Network shows have started becoming more bold ever since TWD and GoT became soo popular despite killing off major characters. 

[catrox14]

MG should send the Sleepy Hollow producers a gift basket, they've managed to take the heat off him for killing Laurel.

 

I wonder if they're going to take into account audience reaction to this move.  IIRC they were thinking of cancelling it after the mess that was the Crane Family Drama last season and then decided to give it another chance with a new show-runner.  But ratings haven't picked up that much, have they?

 

I think it would be a mistake to keep going under the name SH.  They've set Ichabod up to work with the FBI so they can just roll Ichabod into the Bones team since they already did the crossover (which I always suspected may have been a setup to move them out of SH).  But now, it's all tainted. To me SH will always be Abbie and Ichabod as the Two Witnesses played but Nicole and Tom (not some other interlopers thank you very much)

[FurryFury]

Fox seems to be in really dire straits. They've renewed both Lucifer (which I've not watched since the first few episodes but plan on binging because I liked the lead actor) and even Rosewood (which sounds like a Pretty Little Liars spin-off), and I don't think either of them got good ratings. So I wouldn't be surprised if they renew SH out of desperation. Still would be a dumb thing to do, the ship has been decisively sunk by this point.

[Delphi]

Lucifer is soooo good though. I'm so glad it got renewed.

[statsgirl]

I liked the first few episodes of Lucifer but the leads have zero chemistry and it seems like there is no overarcing plot now that he's

burned his wings

. What they needed was a Castle/Beckett or Bones/Booth chemistry and instead she's more like his disapproving mother while he's constantly talking about banging her.  To make matters worse, the guy playing Lucifer is playing him so sleazy I want to shower after I watch an episode.

 

To my surprise, the best new show is Rosewood.  Third tier cop show but Morris Chestnut looks fine and Lorraine Toussaint can act.

 

Yeah, Fox is in trouble, even more so since Bones is heading into its last season. If they do decide to renew Sleepy Hollow, without the IchAbbie chemistry, it's just a fourth rate SPN.

 

ETA: sorry Delphi. I was typing as you were posting. This is just IMO.

Edited April 9, 2016 by statsgirl

[Delphi]

Lol. It's okay. Different strokes.

I don't mind the lack of romantic chemistry because I really don't want the leads to end up together, cause ick. But I think they have an alright amount of head butting chemistry. I certainly don't see anti-chemistry.

And apparently the next few episodes are really going to get back into the plot that you mentioned. At least according to Principal Wood. So we'll see.

I don't mind Luci, but see why he's considered icky by some people. But I enjoy his snark and the fact that he doesn't care. I'd probably hate him irl, but he's fun for me on screen.

[Morrigan2575]

I think the biggest problem for me (with Lucifer) is that the male/female lead have no chemistry but, it seems the show is deadset on making them a romantic pairing.

Other than that, Lucifer rides almost entirely on the male leads charm and he is charming.

[statsgirl]

I like the shrink played by Rachel Harris. (I liked her on Suits too.)  i thought they were going to be original and pair Lucifer with her as an on-going TWB (therapist with benefits) but now that they are making Kevin Alejandro's character a bad guy, it seems like they are going for Lucifer/Chloe.

[Genki]

I did't like either leads in Lucifer, but I especially don't find the guy playing Lucifer charming or tempting or suave, which is how I believe he is meant to be portrayed. There is something in his mannerisms which negate what they are trying to sell, for me.

[catrox14]

I think the biggest problem for me (with Lucifer) is that the male/female lead have no chemistry but, it seems the show is deadset on making them a romantic pairing.

 

 

Hahahaha OH THE IRONY  RIP SH

[tv echo]

Betty has glasses? LOL (wonder why)...

Archie Comics ‏@ArchieComics
The #Riverdale gang just hanging out.
@kj_apa @itscamilamendes @madelainepetsch @lilireinhart @RossButler

1:49 PM - 8 Apr 2016

https://twitter.com/ArchieComics/status/718541344415866880

[Sasha]

I've kept Lucifer on as background noise for the most part. I don't really get it. Is Lucifer supposed to fall in love and be redeemed by the strong noble female? Or grow a heart from the pure innocence of the too cute little girl? Get his wings back and become a good angel? What ever it 's still background noise.

But what is up with the female lead's eyes? They always look like she has weird dark pink circles around them. Do I need a new tv?

Edited April 10, 2016 by Sasha

[AyChihuahua]

I have tried to get into Outlander a few times, but 

in the book the male lead is repeatedly raped by the bad guy, and the show's following that SL, right?

I don't understand why anyone would want to watch anyone, male or female, be 

repeatedly raped.

[Sakura12]

That scene kind of turned me off the show. It was at the very end of season 1. I still like most of the other parts of the show and really wish they would've just let the actor sell the aftermath. We didn't need to see it to know what Jamie suffered through. 

[NumberCruncher]

Agreed re: Outlander.  I watched the first season until it became abundantly clear that the show was fixated on both threatened and actual rape as a continuous storytelling device.  I lasted until the prison scenes and then quietly made my exit.

[doesntworkonwood]

I've read the books which is why I started watching the show but after the controversial

spanking scene

last season, I knew that the creatives wouldn't be able to deal with the

prison scene

with the sensitivity it deserves and I noped out of there really fast. Also, spoiler alert for future books that the series will be based on,

it doesn't get better. Every single character gets abused. And I'm not exaggerating at all. The author pretty much relies on rape and abuse as a story point to an extreme extent. The amount of times Claire has been raped is awful

 

The books get worse as they go along,

even if you ignore the physical abuse. I'm talking racial caricatures, repeated storylines, flat nonsensical characters.

The author is also one of the reasons I stopped reading. Her interviews don't paint her in any positive light at all, and weirdly she's repeatedly said that she hates romance, and belittled it as a genre, despite the fact that the most successful aspect of her first novel was a romance (and that that's pretty much what the entire book is based around. 

[AyChihuahua]

I've read the books which is why I started watching the show but after the controversial

spanking scene

last season, I knew that the creatives wouldn't be able to deal with the

prison scene

with the sensitivity it deserves and I noped out of there really fast. Also, spoiler alert for future books that the series will be based on,

it doesn't get better. Every single character gets abused. And I'm not exaggerating at all. The author pretty much relies on rape and abuse as a story point to an extreme extent. The amount of times Claire has been raped is awful

Agree, bc I didn't even mean dealing with the subject matter sensitively, I mean the subject matter itself. I just don't get why people would want to watch that, like, at all. Good to know I'm not missing anything. I didn't realize the female lead has the same thing happen to her as well.

[NumberCruncher]

Yeah, there are a few of the author's comments I've seen that have made me give some major side-eye.  The romance one doesn't necessarily bother me but when she expressed her delight at seeing the male lead's character get raped in the prison scenes in one of the media panels I wondered if she was joking.  When I realized she wasn't and that she seemed to be getting some kind of arousal out of it, um...no.

[statsgirl]

Thank you for verifying my decision not to read any more of her books. I was given one as a gift and got about 50 pages into it before I was squicked out. I was feeling bad because everyone else seemed to be raving about Outlander but now I feel better.

I've kept Lucifer on as background noise for the most part. I don't really get it. Is Lucifer supposed to fall in love and be redeemed by the strong noble female? Or grow a heart from the pure innocence of the too cute little girl? Get his wings back and become a good angel? What ever it 's still background noise.

But what is up with the female lead's eyes? They always look like she has weird dark pink circles around them. Do I need a new tv?

I think the show is a bunch of tropes they flung at the wall to see what will stick and that's the direction they're going to go. The original Neil Gaiman comic is intriguing but the show seems to have getting renewed as its priority. Congratulations, you succeeded.

Lauren German can look good, I've seen her in other shows. For some reason, on Lucifer she mostly looks like she hasn't slept in the last three days.

[Sakura12]

I like the actors that play Jamie and Claire but all the rape violence is just too much. I mean I watch Banshee and that show has men and women brutally beating each other all the time, everyone dies violently on that show. I can watch that, but I can't watch everyone getting raped all the time. I didn't know there's more to come to on Outlander. I don't think I'll watch the second season then. 

[BkWurm1]

I've read the books which is why I started watching the show but after the controversial

spanking scene

last season, I knew that the creatives wouldn't be able to deal with the

prison scene

with the sensitivity it deserves and I noped out of there really fast. Also, spoiler alert for future books that the series will be based on,

it doesn't get better. Every single character gets abused. And I'm not exaggerating at all. The author pretty much relies on rape and abuse as a story point to an extreme extent. The amount of times Claire has been raped is awful

 

The books get worse as they go along,

even if you ignore the physical abuse. I'm talking racial caricatures, repeated storylines, flat nonsensical characters.

The author is also one of the reasons I stopped reading. Her interviews don't paint her in any positive light at all, and weirdly she's repeatedly said that she hates romance, and belittled it as a genre, despite the fact that the most successful aspect of her first novel was a romance (and that that's pretty much what the entire book is based around. 

They just had the first season on a preview channel this last week so I did end up watching.  It really is just one awful thing happening after the other. It's also oddly slow at times.  Sometimes I appreciated those extra 15 minutes in each episode but often times they squandered them and kind of made it tedious.  The romance between the leads is intensely good and sexy but use of nudity as a humiliation is gratuitous and uncomfortable for me.  Her top was ripped off one too many times. 

 

I don't think I will watch the second season.  I'll pretend they sailed off to France and lived happily ever after. 

 

 

Yeah, there are a few of the author's comments I've seen that have made me give some major side-eye.  The romance one doesn't necessarily bother me but when she expressed her delight at seeing the male lead's character get raped in the prison scenes in one of the media panels I wondered if she was joking.  When I realized she wasn't and that she seemed to be getting some kind of arousal out of it, um...no.

The rape scene was emotionally brutal but I came away from it glad that they'd filmed it.  There were sooo many elements of it that reminded me of bad romance novels where the woman hates the man but at some point gives in to the pleasure and somehow, that makes it all ok???  This had him being physically tortured in addition to the mind games but it was the mind games that nearly broke him and left him suicidal.  And I felt like any man that saw that scene would never look at "persuading" a woman as anything near ok ever again.  And I ended up feeling it was an important message.  It really conveyed the damage to victims in a way that I think the general public has grown numb to. 

 

That said, I never want to witness anything like that again and don't trust that the show won't continue to be a series of miserable events and abuse. 

[tv echo]

Warning: article contains spoilers (show sounds like a mix of Dawson's Creek, Desperate Housewives and Glee)...

 

Riverdale (The CW) pilot preview: THE teen soap of the late 2010s?
10 APRIL 2016
http://season-zero.com/riverdale-the-cw-pilot-preview/

[quarks]

Regarding recasting characters with new actors, some post-pilot nighttime drama television examples:

 

Dallas brought in another actress to play Miss Ellie for a season or two when the original actress had medical issues.

 

Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman recast Colleen, reportedly after salary disputes with the original actress.

 

Game of Thrones has recast at least three characters, off the top of my head - the Mountain, Tommen, and Daario Naharis. I believe with Tommen the idea was to age the character up a little. The show blamed scheduling conflicts for the other two.

 

And, over on Supernatural, Katie Cassidy was replaced as Ruby by Genevieve Cortese.

 

So yeah, it happens. 

[Genki]

Roseanne recast Becky for a couple of seasons.