S06.E09: Lean In

[cali1981]

And speaking of PK, he was also in the short-lived nighttime soap Dirty, Sexy Money, which I loved ( at least for the first season, as usual, they f'd it up in season two with a lot of nonsense, lost viewers and it was cancelled). It had Donald Sutherland and Jill Clayburgh as his parents, and had Blair Underwood, William Baldwin and Lucy Lui!

 

Thank you!  Dirty, Sexy Money was a terrific show that ran at the same time as one of my all time favorites Eli Stone. Unlike Eli Stone, whose writers were given enough notice to craft a decent finale when the show was cancelled, DSM got no such consideration.  One week it was on and the next week it was gone.  Peter Krauss was very good but Donald Sutherland dominated any scene that he was in.  All in all though, it was good while it lasted.

[ShadowFacts]

 

As soon as Joel moved out, she was back over at Ed's house ... just her without the kids.  Here her husband is obviously wounded, and instead of showing any remorse or contrition, she is hanging out with other guys.  I don't care if she is having sex and I'm not calling her a slut ... just saying that she is exercising zero self-examination and trying to satisfy her own immediate needs, the hallmark traits of a young child before developing maturity.

 

Right.  She seemed to be having something of an emotional affair with the first guy even while Joel still lived at home, before he knew about the kiss.  That was a betrayal.  She was acting out of her insecurities about not being in the work world, Joel having successes in his work and spending a lot of time on the job, and not being on solid ground with being the at-home parent.  I suppose if she wants to have some fun while separated, that's fair as long as the kids aren't exposed, but she does bear responsibility for the initial estrangement. 

[KaveDweller]

I guess my perspective is that there's about 15 regular cast members on this show, so even with each one having to miss 4 episodes at some point, it still seems like there should be plenty of characters to give story to in each episode without relying so heavily on Hank, Sandy, and Ruby.

 

Yes, I agree, they should be able to spend 40 minutes with just a few people and not have to resort to so much Ruby. I actually think it's good to not have the full cast in every episode, otherwise it either feels like forced interaction or you get too little time for some storylines.

 

I couldn't believe that Ruby's mom said that it wasn't fair TO RUBY that Savannah, the girl who was actually cast as Sandy, decided that she felt well enough to perform on the second night. Do you not understand what an understudy is?

 

I know right? I was like that's the whole point of an understudy. But my question was, if Ruby is good enough to understudy for Sandy, wouldn't she have a bigger regular part than just the chorus?

 

Or teachers - what's that about?

 

What happened to that guy Julia slept with last season? Wasn't he supposed to be principal or something?

[CMH1981]

All of the points posters have brought up regarding Julia moving on physically after Joel moved out is why I'm glad we won't(possibly) see Julia and Joel in the couples counseling if they reconcile. I just can't imagine Joel sitting through those session when Julia tells him that she saw Ed again, and then hooked up w/the Principal that was supposed to be at Snowflake Academy. He must know that Julia and her boss (can you imagine how awkward that is going to be now, damn Julia) were sleeping together since he saw them at the barbecue and they have a past.

I know Joel is no saint in all of this, but I just don't know if his love for Julia can stand hearing of those moments she was w/other men. It's one thing to say that you want your wife back and love her unconditionally, but it's another to find out she moved on much quicker when your separation was still warm.

[Former Nun]

As for Lauren Graham, I loved her on Gilmore Girls like much of everybody else here.  But.. I don't feel it here. I can't stand Sarah at all and I LG kind of bugs the hell out of me on this show. I don't know why. Because then I'll watch a GG rerun and fall in love again.

 

 

How do you think I feel, StarsFallen?  I never watched Gilmore Girls and Parenthood is my first experience with Lauren Graham.  Sarah has gone from problem man to old man to wealthy man, to very young man to broken man, etc....each man catapulting her into a profession she had never tried before, yet she's an immediate expert--a success...for a moment.  She's a playwright. She's a bartender. She's a student. She's a shoe designer/marketing expert.  She's a photographer.  Now with Hank she'll be the ever-suffering, understanding "other woman" because he can't let go of the little family he disappointed so many times.  

[canter]

The thing that bothers me about Joel and Julia is that they kept stringing their kids along, telling Sydney they didn't know whether they were going to divorce, and keeping them in the limbo of not knowing for a whole year. If Julia was so certain the marriage was over that she moved on to relationships with other men, then the kids should have been told and the papers should have been signed.

[Eeksquire]

 

I know Joel is no saint in all of this, but I just don't know if his love for Julia can stand hearing of those moments she was w/other men. It's one thing to say that you want your wife back and love her unconditionally, but it's another to find out she moved on much quicker when your separation was still warm.

Why would she tell him? I don't think a family therapy session would (or should) include a catalog of every single thing you did that would have upset the other person while you were apart - the point is to address the reasons you were apart and work on repairing that relationship.  Not to mention, we've seen what Julie has been up to - as she is a Braverman and thus the focus of the show - but who's to say that Joel hasn't had relationships or flings or one-night stands on the side?

 

My biggest problem with this storyline is Zeke and Camille's response to this whole thing.  I don't recall who said it above (sorry!), but I wholeheartedly agree that it seems like they're taking Joel's side over their own daughter.  Having lived through a similar circumstance, I can't tell you how much damage (some of which is irreparable) that causes to the relationship between parent and adult-child.  

[Former Nun]

There's no point in them showcasing them so much unless the show plans on Hank reuniting with them. They seem to be getting more focus in the last season than Sarah a main character is. Its either the family is getting back together or the powers that be needed some scenes to be written and realized the other actors weren't going to be in this episode so lets throw Hanks family in on this. Which..okay. I mean, there's no other explanation.

 

 

How about this: Spinoff?   Another vehicle for Ray Romano?   I wouldn't watch...his portrayal (not the character) of Hank is uncomfortable for me.  His acting is not good enough.  

[trucka-bubba]

Julia and Joel: It's probably been said before, but I always interpreted the situation leading to the marriage breakdown as Julia being clearly depressed. Adoption related depression/anxiety/stress, closely followed by a loss of self esteem when she was no longer working. I think this is what she was referencing when she said she needed Joel and he was weak.

 

But I think that short scene with Julia and Camille was the writers short handed way of trying to explain what Joel may have been feeling. Julia saw him as being 'weak' through all those difficult stages, when maybe he was feeling just as vulnerable as she was, and he needed her support. Or maybe he was misinterpreting her poor behaviour as selfishness, and not symptoms of depression. 

 

Why Joel didn't articulate any of that, though, is beyond me. Lazy writing, I guess. But I see no fault in Camille and Zeke encouraging their daughter to give the marriage another go, especially as there is no doubt that they both still love each other. 

 

Max/Kristina/Adam: We are definitely being punked by the writers. That is all.

[yankee1151]

I posted this (accidentally) in the media thread because I was responding to one of the articles, but I thought I was ranting in the ep thread... sorry.... will delete the post in the other thread now...

 

From the Vulture article:  "Max's behavior is explainable, but it's not excusable, and his parents' ongoing refusal to recognize that is as bad for him as it is for everyone else."

I know Katims will not get that, because autism = misery and hey, since there's no cure, that means poor Adam and Kristina are doomed to a life a victimhood, but it actually makes me wonder how miserable his own autistic kid must be.  Maybe that makes me an asshole, but this episode really, really drove home for me how much this dude actually buys into the A$ agenda.  Max is a teenager.  He's intelligent.  He's had plenty of time since diagnosis to not only receive proper therapies, but also to interact with kids his own age and learn appropriate social behavior.  Those things don't cure Asperger's, but they go a long way (with proper parental guidance) to becoming a productive member of society.   Instead, at 14 (15?) he doesn't get (until after the fact) that what he was doing was harassment?  And then his parents actually tell him it WASN'T - therefore negating his own correct conclusion?  Unless they are setting us up for a "Max is a sociopath" storyline, which clearly, no - they would really like us to believe that this kid who was diagnosed like seven years ago and has lived in the goddamn world (no matter how much Adam and Kristina have shielded him, he HAS gone to school with other kids, I'm sure has witnessed crushes and teenage relationships, and has seen breakups etc within his own family, his mentor Hank, etc...) THERE IS NO WAY Max would be that oblivious, Asperger's or not.  Hurt because his feelings were not reciprocated?  Sure.  Angry, even, if he thought Dylan was leading him on by hanging out at his house so often?  Yeah, I get that.  But the pure obliviousness does not ring true.  Nope.  What I hated most about that storyline was that they HAD to make Dylan's parents these "absentee" rich people who we are supposed to believe have no idea what's going on with their kid, and god damn it, Adam and Kristina have the RIGHT to not only call them on that (to deflect from the atrocious behavior of their son) but to do it PUBLICLY.  I really think the show wanted us to feel bad for THEM in that moment - not Dylan's parents, not all the other poor kids and parents who had to hear it, and especially not Dylan, the actual VICTIM.  Jesus fuck.  And then to tell Max he wasn't harassing her when HE very clearly knew that he was... wtf??? I really, really don't even get the message here, A$ agenda or not.  They WANT Max to believe that his behavior is appropriate, or that he can do whatever he wants as long as he occasionally apologizes?  They seem to have no desire for him to live in the real world, ever.  WHY?  I thought last season when Hank was exploring his own potential Asperger's that Adam expressed hope that Max could be like him - independent and able to have relationships.  Does he no longer feel that way, or does he think because Max is such a special snowflake that he will magically be able to achieve those goals despite the piss poor parenting and shitty advice he's getting from his parents?  ARE THEY EVER GOING TO REALIZE THAT THEY ARE THE PROBLEM, AND THEY'RE FUCKING UP THEIR KID???

Ok, sorry for the rant.  I know its all been said anyway but this episode made my blood boil.  This kind of shit is the reason there is a stigma attached to autism/Asperger's.  Almost every article I've ever read has praised the show for simply having an autistic character, with nary a mention of how that character is being written.  If Max had received proper therapy all along and his parents taught him right from wrong like they (allegedly) would with their neurotypical kids, there's a very good chance he'd have had a meaningful friendship or relationship by now.  He certainly wouldn't think the world revolves around him.  It took a crush rejecting him for him to (maybe) learn that lesson?  And still his parents are jumping in to "fix" it?  Really??  He's NOT mentally challenged.  These are NOT concepts he is incapable of grasping.  To say Adam and Kristina are doing Max a huge disservice in every way is the understatement of the year.  This is what Katims REALLY thinks Asperger's means??  Ugh.  Hmm, turns out I wasn't done with the rant.  Anyway... poor Dylan.   And I agree with whomever said the actress is nailing it.

Joel and Julia - fuck you, Joel.  Yes, Julia fucked up.  But what has always had me on her side during this storyline was the fact that he refused to even have a conversation.  Her kiss with Ed was akin to his kiss with the annoying mom in season one.  She didn't cheat on him, at least by those standards.  Emotional affair?  Maybe, but she WANTED to go to counseling, not run off with the other dude.  If he thought it was too late, fine.  I have no issue with that, though TRYING counseling (with an open mind, which Joel never did) when you have kids might be a good idea.  But if you're unwilling to try, to talk, to do anything at all, well, you're sending the very clear message that there is no chance for reconciliation and that's what Joel did.  You CAN change your mind a year later, but to act as if the other party should have been pining for you the whole time and run back to you with no reservations - again with the self centered assholes on this show.  Joel isn't even a biological Braverman!!  So entitled.  I say Julia should tell him its too late, which she CLEARLY wants to do, but of course they will get back together.  Whatever.  I guess I can't complain too much because there has been a refreshing lack of Sydney this whole season, so there's that. 

I hope Zeke doesn't kick the bucket before he apologizes to Drew for being such an asshole.  Poor Drew, the only sympathetic character left on this show.  Run away, Drew!!!  Go meet up with Haddie in Europe and form an ex-Braverman support group.  Take Nora with you so she has a fighting chance.

[JasminePhyllisia]

 

Poor Drew, the only sympathetic character left on this show.  Run away, Drew!!!  Go meet up with Haddie in Europe and form an ex-Braverman support group.  Take Nora with you so she has a fighting chance.

 

Agreed.  Drew is about the only one I still like at this point.  RUN DREW RUN!  Otherwise I see him quitting college in a year to help support Amber's baby for the next 18 years.  His mother has been checked out these past few months, seemingly leaving Amber alone to figure out just how she's going to support herself when the baby comes, and Drew has taken on this burden.  Amber is harassing him all the time, doesn't seem to get that HELLO college is intense he needs to study not go out on "dates" with you or drive you to Wyoming.

 

If Zeke lives he will continue to harass the poor kid.  And yes, Haddie was wise to get FAR the hell away from her Max-centric family, and even as a single college student would probably still be more attentive to Nora than Kristina and Adam are.

 

Edited to say I still like Nora and Aida, so added to my list of the Bravermans I still like.  I would also add Victor but he's not technically a Braverman because he has a different last name.

Edited November 23, 2014 by JasminePhyllisia

[wonderwoman]

Since this episode encapsulated so much of what Parenthood could (and should:) have done over the years, I'm going to cross-post on the What Parenthood Should Have Done Better In Six Seasons.

Background: I wanted to like this show; I have tried to like this show. Others (many others, in fact :) have noted the flaws discussed below, but loved the show in spite of them. I guess I must have a lower threshold... But, what's made watching Parenthood such an exercise in frustration is that it's always been disconcertingly easy to see the show that it could have been -- the show it should have been.

The true pleasure of serial drama -- and yes, Parenthood is a serial drama -- lies less in seeing the culmination of a story than in the anticipation leading up to the climax and the aftermath. But, with so many characters to service and a declining number of episodes each season, Parenthood has skipped from high point to high point, never exploring the valleys in between; always telling viewers when it was time to cry, never letting us get there on our own. (I really thought I was going to be the only person to make it through the entire series without shedding a tear. But during Joel's heartfelt plea to Julia in the restaurant, I finally teared up for the first time. Better late than never, I suppose. :)

The other source frustration is, of course, the Bravermans: insular; entitled, boarding on arrogant; self-absorbed, but incapable of self-reflection, self-examination or ever admitting that they might just be the one in the wrong. Yes, they may say the words when pressed (but really, has anyone ever truly called a Braverman on their shit and made it stick? I know, rhetorical question:). But with the exception of Camille and Joel (of course, neither a Braverman by birth :), they do not own their faults or learn from their missteps. And those missteps never, ever, result in real and lasting consequences. In the end, everything always works out for the Bravermans.

As Alan Sepinwall pointed out at HitFix, the financial constraints of this final season (which meant fewer characters per episode) provided a real opportunity to delve deeper into the characters and their relationships. Why Jason Kamins choose to squander this opportunity by focusing so much attention on Hank and his family is anybody's guess.

Here's my take on the fall finale:

Zeek's treatment of Drew

While Zeek's desire to surprise Camille with a trip to France was lovely, his treatment of Drew since his surgery has been unforgivable. And, no one's called him on it. Certainly not Camille, the closest thing Parenthood has to a moral center. When Zeek told her about the trip, she had the perfect opportunity for her to hold his feet to the fire for the emotional damage he's inflicted on his grandson, not to mention disrupting his classes.

Then there's Sarah

She's been so tied up with Hank and his family drama that she doesn't seem to know what's going on with her own children. Is she even aware that Amber was in the hospital? Does she know that both Zeek and Amber have been pulling Drew away from his studies, which in typical Braverman fashion, has had no consequences, at least not yet (and anyone holding out any hope for the final few episodes, raise your hand... That's what I thought.)? Thinking back, have Sarah and Drew even shared a scene this season? Less of Hank's family drama would have freed up time for the missing Sarah-Amber, Sarah-Drew, Sarah-Zeek, Sarah-Camille scenes

And finally, the Snowflake Academy:

This episode offered an opportunity (squandered, of course) to explore in the persons of Adam and Kristin much that is wrong with the Bravermans, while, at the same time, providing both anticipation and aftermath.

Their behavior toward Max has created so much damage, not just to Max, but to the school, where his obsessive attention toward Dylan is quite likely actionable. Why wouldn't parents watching the meltdown of Max and his parents start yanking their kids out of Chambers Academy, post haste, putting the school's future in serious peril?

That possibility could have led to some serious soul searching on the part of Adam and Kristina, and lead them to the painful realization that their inability to confront Max's behavior has not only undermined his growth, but brought them to the point of losing the school. Their conversation would have taken place before they talked to Max (anticipation); leading to a conversation that would have forced Max to realize that notwithstanding his intentions, that yes, he was harassing Dylan. The aftermath? Well, instead of dropping by unannounced, perhaps a proper meeting at the school that began with Adam and Kristina acknowledging the truth of Dylan's parent's observation that Adam and Kristina see the world only through the view of the son, and that ain't no way to run a railroad, or a charter school.

If only... The saddest words in the English language...

ETA:

While I've never been fond of Sarah and Hank's relationship, I do think his interactions with Max were useful. Having Hank teach at the Snowflake Academy would have kept the character (and Ray Romano) on the canvas in an organic and integrated way.

(Truth be told, Sarah's been on my last nerve since the first season, though I'm not sure how I would have felt about the character if Maura Tierney had continued in the role. I could never get past the reality that LG's Sarah would also suffer by comparison with Lorelei -- not fair, I know, but there it is.

Edited November 24, 2014 by wonderwoman

[txhorns79]

Julia and Joel: It's probably been said before, but I always interpreted the situation leading to the marriage breakdown as Julia being clearly depressed. Adoption related depression/anxiety/stress, closely followed by a loss of self esteem when she was no longer working. I think this is what she was referencing when she said she needed Joel and he was weak.

 

I had thought Julia and Joel's problems really stemmed from the adoption of Victor.  There were times when I felt like they were not on the same page regarding his care, and each worked to undermine the other in order to get their own way.  I seem to remember that particularly when they were deciding on whether to hold Victor back.  It wasn't healthy for either Julia or Joel, and really harmed their marriage.  I also agree that Julia probably had some depression from becoming a stay at home mom.  

 

 

She's been so tied up with Hank and his family drama that she doesn't seem to know what's going on with her own children.

 

It's very bizarre to me that Amber was hospitalized last week, and I don't think we've seen anything from Sarah that indicates she's remotely interested.  I mean, your kid is giving birth very soon, appears to have no real plan for the birth or aftermath, and you're spending all your free time with your boyfriend.  What's that about? 

[stillshimpy]

I don't have any issue with Julia dating or having sex with anyone when she and Joel were apart.  Joel left, he would not give her any indication that he wanted to try and repair their marriage.  It wasn't solely Julia's fault that things went wrong, it rarely is one person's fault.  People change, things happen, I agree she was depressed and they didn't know how to help each other, and unfortunately they hurt each other.  

 

But as for whether or not Joel could take knowing that Julia had sex while they were apart, he actually does know she was dating her ex-boyfriend.  The one time fling with the teacher seemed to be about taking a step away from Joel, and I don't blame her for that.  She chose someone neutral to do that with, whereas had she hooked up with Ed, that would have been a very loaded and potentially punishing for her to do.  As it was, she took her own step away from Joel, but I can't blame her for that.  Joel didn't want to go to therapy, he didn't want to work on their marriage.  She begged him and directly asked him about reconciling and he shut her down.  She's not his property, at that point after being told -- in essence -- "I don't want to repair our marriage, we're broken" she was free except for the paperwork.  

 

And I think Joel knows that better than anyone because he was the one apologizing for the part he played in their difficulties. 

 

One year is not a drop in a bucket when it is happening.  Looking BACK at a huge chunk of time, sure it can seem that way.  I've also been with my husband for close to twenty years, but each year took the same amount of time to get through.  Each with its own challenges.  We just have been able to meet them together. 

 

I think the point of Joel and Julia's story is that sometimes there will be challenges and you can't figure out how to meet them together.  They were both going through their own, separate issues.   They weren't there for each other.  Only upon realizing "wow, this is it, this will be final and she'll move on and love someone else and....Oh hell, I still love her....and now that I'm no longer angry....yikes, what have we done?  What have I done? "  

 

That's the thing, a lot of what Joel did seemed to be about punishing Julia in his own turn.  When he flat-out told her that he didn't think they were moving towards a reconciliation that's so close to just saying, "it's over" that he might as well have said exactly that and part of it was about punishment for what he felt she had done.  

 

But spouses of both genders both screw up.  Joel did and Julia did.  Joel in that his approach to trying to repair their relationship was to runaway.  Julia because she was floundering, badly and rather than talk to Joel about that before it was a crisis, she quit her job as a way of solving the crisis, which was actually the thing that really seemed to wound Joel initially.  That she considered him so secondary to her decision making process, he was informed after the fact.  Ow.  

 

So anyway, I don't mind this resolution.  I don't know where they are heading with it, but there's a bunch of blame to be shared in that relationship.  It's not either or, where one is absolutely right and the other in the wrong.  They both screwed up.  They both acted selfishly when it came to their children and now they both seem to want try despite how much they hurt each other.  

 

I mean, Julia has this competitive: must. be. the. best.  thing going on.  She clearly had a terror of failure from the moment that we met her.  I think she feared, as many perfectionists do, that if she wasn't perfect, then she wasn't going to be lovable.  I think that's why she couldn't tell Joel how much she was struggling until she was falling apart.  Then her husband left her and seemed to stop loving her when she wasn't the super competent, best at everything woman and instead was fallible in her own turn.  That's a confirmation of every terrible fear she ever had there too.   So yeah, I see fault on both sides.  

Edited November 24, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Cattitude]

It clearly seems I come from a different perspective than many on a year in a marriage so I just want to share this one thought from my perspective and be done with it. I don't begrudge anyone their perspective.

 

My husband happens to be in the millitary reserves and has been deployed a couple of times for a little less than a year. During those times I function as a single parent. During those times it is hard for him to be present in our children's lives. When he returns and things go back to normal the time he was gone doesn't seem that great and in the grand scheme of our marriage that time is just a very small part.( I do understand being deployed and being separated aren't exactly the same.)

 

While Joel left their home he never left his children's lives. He was very present and engaged with is children, so I don't see him taking a step back and being thoughtful about what he wanted as leaving his family. I do think he asserted himself more than he normally does and THAT is what Julia didn't like. She wants things on her terms and he wasn't willing to cave to her this time and she is making him grovel and grovel as payback.

 

My big issue with Julia having significant relationships with several other men isn't what she did it is why she did it. It would be one thing if she truely moved on but as someone else posted she was stringing BOTH sides on. She wanted to be free, but not let go of Joel either. She did more damage to her children by dangling everything along. If she was so conflicted about Joel then she should have stayed single b/c what she did wasn't fair to Collegeguy as much as anyone. Julia clearly needed counseling and just b/c Joel wouldn't go to marriage counseling right off the bat, doesn't mean Julia couldn't or shouldn't have gone to counseling on her own FOR HER.

[Brookside]

Headmaster?  Really?  She's a woman isn't she?  (So many questions, so little time.)

[Blergh]

If only... The saddest words in the English language...

 

True, but what also would have rank close would be Hank telling Sarah she was the 'best thing that ever happened to[him]'! If Sarah's the best thing not only is that a lower bar than polevaulting over a dime but I'd hate to find out what the worst thing was!

[stillshimpy]

My husband happens to be in the millitary reserves and has been deployed a couple of times for a little less than a year. During those times I function as a single parent.

 

I truly mean this: I am saying this with absolute respect  -- there is a world of difference between someone being absent from a marriage to fulfill a responsibility and a duty and both of you know, that barring disaster he will return and what happened between Joel and Julia where he left and gave her no indication that he planned on returning.  He wouldn't even answer the question. 

 

Absence for duty is not the same thing as intentional abandonment, both emotional and physical.   

 

I also don't begrudge you your perspective and in no way dispute your life experience, I am just that is why I don't find them to be comparable.  Also, regardless of Joel remaining present in his children's lives, they both did feel abandoned.  Sydney is not a likable kid, but one of the saddest scenes the show ever had was when she wanted Joel stay and then started shrieking, "Why? Why can't he stay?" and that's what Joel did wrong.  By leaving in some ill-defined, nebulous manner, his children also lost their feeling of security.  It was Julia's fault too, but kids need to know what is happening and why to feel secure.   

 

Back to the show, I will be interested to see what they do from this point on with Joel and Julia.  The series has never really depicted what happens when parents really can't make it work and how that impacts parenting.  Perhaps that is why Hank and his ex-wife are getting such focus.  

Edited November 24, 2014 by stillshimpy

[econ07]

My last words on the Julia-Joel topic.  First, I appreciate all dissenting opinions for their thoughtfulness, insight, and civility.  I also appreciate those who agree as I believed mine to be a unique view and I'm glad there are some others out there to verify that I am not entirely off my rocker (at least on this opinion).

 

Also, Cattitude, well said above.  I was touched by your words and the sacrifices you have made when your husband is away.  I'll refrain from quoting due to length.

 

My perspective is somewhat biased as the father of an autistic child.  It is a daily battle of trying to serve your child and at the same time prepare your child for the world.  I think Parenthood got it right in the early seasons, just demonstrating how constant the battle is ... but then went astray more and more as Max was provided with zero discipline.  Parents who care about their autistic child will tell you, you have to establish consequences (revoking privileges, taking toys away, etc.), and it is a constant battle to find the right balance of grace and punishment, knowing that you will make many mistakes.

 

Given this perspective, I see strong similarities between the way Max is treated by his parents and Julia is treated by her family.  Not surprisingly, I see strong similarities with how they function in life as well, doing what they want based on impulse rather than considering the needs of those around them.  To me, it was never about the sex.  That was just symptomatic and demonstrative of her desire for self-gratification.  It was Julia's insensitivity to Joel having to not just re-enter the work force after years away, but do so as the sole provider.  He did so willingly without complaining, and had to put in many long hours, as anyone would in that situation, only to hear the constant complaining of his wife.  She is a strong women for goodness sake ... I think she had it within her to contemplate the reality, Joel would have to put in many hours restarting his career, and needs support instead of criticism.  Then, when he tried to communicate that, she starts spending time with divorced dad.

 

Both Max and Julia live most of their lives seeing how those around them can meet their needs.  They both need loving parents who will sit them down and be truthful with them, tell them how they messed up, and to seek forgiveness.  That last episode, I think Max was the only one of the two to do so ... to ask forgiveness.

 

Thanks again all for the interesting discussion.  I enjoyed being a part of it.

[arty]

Is Sarah bad for Hank? It seems to me that she has been a good influence on him. Through exposure to her family, he began to explore the idea that he might have Asperger's, and she was a good friend to him on that journey. She appears to be helpful in getting him to understand and bond with his daughter. I'd say she's been a net positive in his life and he the same in hers.

 

I wish that in addition to doubling down on his wedding vows and to apologizing for freezing Julia out, Joel had gently insisted that he also wanted a more equal marriage with her. I've long said on TWoP that Julia often treats Joel like her hot nanny/housekeeper. And he has expressed his unhappiness at her refusal to support his work the way that he has supported hers. In fact, it was a big part of their battle last season, but it appears to have vanished this year. I just wish that there had been mention of this in all the unburdening of emotions that these two have been engaging in this season. Otherwise, it's like Joel and Julia are going to press the re-set button on their marriage; what will have changed in their marriage? As I see it, Joel will go back to being slavishly devoted to Julia, and she will run the show. Until it all implodes again, probably during Sidney's teen years. Epic nightmare.

[jester]

Katims should have just had Camille recycle some Tami Taylor and just tell Julia "there is no weakness in forgiveness." Still one of the most beautiful and simple lines every delivered and fit this situation perfectly as well. I would have been fine with it being reused. I'm not really sure what happened with Joel and if he signed or not. If he did it was really fast or his arms moved very little while he was shaking his head no. I was glad though that when he leaned towards Julia she was the one that grabbed his face and kissed him. As annoying as this show is I'm still rooting for the two of them. They don't have enough time left to fully cover their story like it deserves but I'm hoping for a happy ending even though it won't be done in a satisfying way I'm sure.

 

I agree the actress playing Dylan is fantastic and very subtle and believeable. Unlike Rudy who is always just dialed up to 11 on the drama. The thing is, is that young actress is doing great with the garbage she has been given as well. They just haven't given her anything but one note to play over and over.

 

After all the mess Kristina and Adam have made of Max, on top of all that they show up to apologize and say "Sorry to show up un announced". So they just show up and expect the be made a priority? Why are they making them all so incredibly selfish in every way possible? It's so hard to like anyone on this show anymore.

 

Oh who am I kidding...Ill always love you Joel. No matter what you do.

[Hanahope]

I don't blame Julia for moving on and having a new relationship or two when Joel told her at least twice previously that he had no intention of working on their marriage or doing any real marriage counseling.  For all she knew, he was moving on too, with other women, since he didn't seem to want to be married to her anymore.  So I understand her being upset with him for now doing another 180 and wanting to come back.  Even if she does love him, how does she know that he won't just bail again when they are 'tested' in another situation.

[random chance]

That would be my worry too, Hanahope.  He bailed during a difficult time (and if she was suffering from depression - during an illness) and refused to try and work things out; now that everything's all peachy again he's back and promising to always be there for her blah blah blah.  Actions, not words!  But I say that as someone who doesn't give a rat's ass what happens to anyone on this show, I just want the bloody thing to end.   
 

Crappy show.  One of these days I'm going to fall off the elliptical in a fit of rage

 

If you knew how hard I laughed at that, it would make your day.
 

Camille was wrong -- no one word defines marriage, not communication, not love, not forgiveness, it's many things at once

 

That was probably the dumbest thing Camille has had to say on this show.  It reminded me of a line from Everybody Loves Raymond, "don't give me any more books about how marriage is a circus and you have to embrace your clown."  (Not verbatim.)

[Hanahope]

The way Adam and Kristina are so bad at administrating their charter school almost makes me wish the show would copy the real life scandals of charter schools in Philly, where people with little qualifications ran the schools, but sucked up/stole way too much money for their own personal use, justifying it as needed to help them run the schools.

[Shermie]

Well, I think Joel and Julia's biggest flaw was the writers.

Both have reasons for leaving and reasons for staying, both made mistakes, both have their faults. The problem is that the writers only gave us Julia's view. We know she wanted another child, she wanted to adopt, she had trouble bonding, she had second thoughts about adopting Victor, she was distracted and screwed up,at work, she was fired and decided to be a SAHM, she didn't really like that role, she felt unappreciated by Joel, she was flattered by attention from Ed and enjoyed his friendship, she was jealous of Joel and what's-her-name, etc.

Whether we like or agree with her actions or thoughts, at least we knew what they were. Joel, on the other hand. All I know is that he was angry that Julia quit her job without discussing it. I don't know what he really thought about Ed or what's-her-name, or why he wouldn't go to counselling or what his thoughts were at all, beyond sand moping later on. It was bad writing.

Maybe it's because he's not a true Braverman, but we sure know what Kristina is thinking all,the time. And Hank. And Jasmine.

[MaryPatShelby]

The thing that really, REALLY bugged me about Zeke's treatment of Drew is that Drew didn't really tell Camille all that much. He told her that Zeke was going to fly somewhere...that was it. Nothing about France, nothing about the restaurant, nothing about the B&B (and please, was that terminology really around during the Vietnam years? I think not.) So can I ask, how was the trip "ruined" when all Camille knew was that a plane was involved, and she didn't even know she was part of the plan! Zeke is such a jerk.

[punchbuggyblue]

his hand is out of the frame and he's looking at the papers (it's literally about 1 second and not even a long enough time for him to write his name), we don't actually see it. After shaking his head a couple more times while looking at Julia, he then kisses her. I assumed that's what Julia was responding to when she kissed him back--the fact that he refused to give up.

 

I think I hope for exactly what you just said.

 

It makes for good drama that Julia was dating Chris, but I think her hesitancy and her emotion around the signing of the papers says that she would like to reconcile.  

 

And being that she is a strong woman, her signing the papers is a signal to Joel that she is prepared for it to be over -even though she loves him.  They have some damage to repair on both of their behalves, but I think that Joel knows he was the one who gave up and that he is the one who needs to fix it.  

 

I hope they can put the pieces back together and that they can both come to trust each other's feelings.  That is the hardest part of any reconciliation.  Not easy.  Not at all easy.

[starkey2]

Hi folks, first post.

 

1. Did they ever explain what is going on with Kristina's life pre-Braverman and her family? Over the years they have hinted at some drama so I was hoping they would clear that up. I haven't seen every episode so maybe I missed it. I think that would have been an interesting storyline.

 

2. Zeke and Camille's relationship reminds me of my parents', which is not a good thing. He is all wrapped up in planning this big romantic gesture for Camille but how happy would she be if he could just be trusted to take his freakin meds. The anxiety and stress of taking care of someone who argues over the most common sense things really takes it toll. 

[Jessie Q]

 

If only... The saddest words in the English language...

 

"I watch Parenthood" "Kristina and Adam Braverman are my parents" and "I'm a student at Snowflake Academy" would have to rank right up there...

[Shermie]

starkey2, they hinted at some kind of dysfunction in Kristina's family, but didn't explore it. I assume those seeds were planted for possible future plot lines, but then they had her run for mayor and get cancer and open the school. I think I read once that the cancer storyline was Monica Potters idea, so maybe the family background storyline was scrapped for that. Although, it made no sense that her family never showed up during her cancer battle when they specifically mentioned that she had a family.

Frustration, thy name is Parenthood Viewer.

[arty]

We saw Kristina on the phone to her mom during the cancer storyline, and she was planning her mom's visit. It was the same ep that Camille stayed with Adam and Kristina and rearranged the kitchen during her time there. It turned out that Kristina's mom wanted to stay in Ohio and care for Kristina's stepdad who had some issue. I don't remember the details, but I do remember that his issues were not nearly as serious or urgent as cancer, but the mom chose him over K anyway.

Later on in the ep, Kristina is sad that her own mother has abandoned her at such a scary time, and Camille reassures her that she has more than one mother, as far as Camille is concerned. It was a lovely moment between them and explained to me how Kristina ended up as much of a Braverman as she has.

It's interesting and bizarre to me that except for Crosby, the Braverman kids married people who are "strays" for lack of a better word. Even Camille seems to have no family outside of the one she created with Zeek. And how else to explain every major holiday taking place at Zeek and Camille's house with all of their children and grandchildren present?

It seems that the third generation is continuing in this pattern; Dylan, Alex (Haddie's ex boyfriend) and Ryan seem to enjoy the extended family as a perk that comes along with the romantic relationship. Natalie, for all her many flaws, at least isn't looking for the Bravermans to become the family that her own could never be. And one of the many things I've loved about Joel is his exasperation at the cult-like behavior of his in-laws.

[Marthavmuffin]

Agreed about the strays - but really the cast is huge enough can you imagine if we had to 'meet the Fockers' for every sibling?,

As for J and J - Julia had every right to move on- they both screwed up but Joel wasn't willing to consider fixing the relationship. At. All.

And....Joel's eyes are too close together. I think the lawyer guy is way hotter and much more 'emotionally available' as well as being more mature.

I wish Adam could show some maturity as well...lately only Crosby and jasmine seem at all competent to deal with what life throws at them.( I even loved the Ramones pogo dance- it's a way if dealing with stress that I have used on more than one occasion and it really works.

[MonkeyTrouble]

Finally catching up with this show on Netflix! Glad (if not surprised) to see that I'm not alone in finding the Special Snowflake Max Braverman School of Coddling and Enablement storyline ridiculous. Apart from a couple brief forays into the world of political management, and a few mentions of her cah-ray-zee college days, we have seen NO evidence up to now that Kristina had any interest or experience with child education. Suddenly she's in charge of a large school for teenagers with emotional/psychological disabilities? Wouldn't the head of such a school need to have some kind of advanced degree in . . . . something child-psychology or education related? Not just a new-found attitude of "I just want all kehds to feel welcome and special"?

Quite apart from the fact that Max was clearly unhealthily obsessed with Dylan to begin with, there's the fact that Kristina *assigned* the two of them to work together "so that Max could learn to be just friends" with her. WTF?!? So, not only did the great Headmistress not protect Dylan by freeing her from having to deal with her stalker, she actually forced her to work with him one-on-one? And then Dylan cried and begged her parents to let her stay at this special, special school? Insane.

Speaking of school, I don't think the writers of this show ever went to college. If they did, they must have shacked up with their parents rather than living in a dorm. Outside friends and family members regularly just popping into dorms would just not happen in any legit college. 

Finally, I have been wondering for the last several seasons -- why on earth isn't Amber in college, anyway? In the early season(s), when she was still in high school, she was revealed to be this super-gifted person even though she had no self-confidence, discipline, etc. She then applied to one college -- Berkeley, the premiere UC institution, extremely hard to get into -- and did not get in. Big deal, lots of smart students don't get into Berkeley the first time they apply. I used to teach there, and many of the best students I worked with had started college in one of the hundreds of community colleges in California, worked hard and got great grades, and then transferred to Berkeley in their sophomore or junior years. Also, there are numerous other UC campuses beyond Berkeley that she could have applied to successfully, if not in her senior year than in the year after. Yet neither she nor her ambitious, also-a-secret-literary-genius mother, nor any of her college-educated, professional aunts or uncles, or her doting grandparents ever said, "Okay, so you didn't get into Berkeley this year; get a decent job for a year, get some advice, and re-apply to a wider range of schools next year so that you don't wind up marginally employed (and only by family members), totally uneducated, partnerless and pregnant when you are in your early 20s"?!?

Oh well, at least the Bravermans live in a version of the Bay Area where a retired couple can "downsize" from a comfortable home in Berkeley to a gigantic palace in downtown San Francisco, where unskilled temp jobs in an office pay $30/hour, where a massive recording studio can also function by recording just a couple ads here and there, where the co-owner of said studio can spend half his day supervising troubled teenagers in a school kitchen where they are allowed to cook all the meals from scratch, where a random person can get a hair's breadth away from landing in the mayor's office in a super-politically-engaged city, and where the same random, otherwise unemployed person can decide to buy a giant building in SF, refurbish it completely, and start a popular special ed school for her son to learn some important lessons about girls.

[ByTor]

On 10/26/2016 at 7:06 PM, MonkeyTrouble said:

Finally, I have been wondering for the last several seasons -- why on earth isn't Amber in college, anyway? In the early season(s), when she was still in high school, she was revealed to be this super-gifted person even though she had no self-confidence, discipline, etc. She then applied to one college -- Berkeley, the premiere UC institution, extremely hard to get into -- and did not get in.

Ugh, I couldn't stand this....of course it didn't help that I couldn't stand that no-neck troll.   She whined that she didn't get into college.  Ummm no, she didn't get into the one and only college she applied to.  So she's such a genius that she got those fabulous SAT scores, yet so stupid that she thinks Berkeley is the only college in the country???  Well, that's ok, I'm sure she was consoled by the fact that every male within 500 miles fell in love with her.

[Anthony 1213]

On 11/22/2014 at 4:47 PM, Cattitude said:

 

What exactly did Joel do? I don't really get it. He had to take a step back and I totally agree with econ07 but didn't want to quote such a long post. I saw both Zeek and Camille supporting their child by pointing out the obvious. She STILL loves her husband. Why would they want to encourage her to cause herself MORE pain? The best way to support and love your children is to tell them the TRUTH even when it isn't pretty, not to just pat and coddle them.

 

Julia can't be alone where as Joel can. Joel didn't even DATE a single person while he was alone he was thinking and working through. Julia wanted to bury it all and the cracks would have kept growing. Julia jumping from one man to another clearly showed how WEAK she actually is and that she as little insight into her own self. She clearly has needed counseling for a long time when losing her job caused her so much identity crisis. If that was a MAN who acted like she did when she lost her job everyone would have been up in arms if the woman hadn't left like Joel did.

 

In a relationship crisis I truely don't think "a year" is a large amount of time especially for a couple married at least 10 yrs. Julia had three relationships with other men in that short time. What does that say about her?

 

I truely saw Julia going and signing the papers as a TEST to see what Joel would do and he didn't sign them. That is what she wanted and that is why she kissed him. I guess some people don't watch the previews b/c it is clear they are back together it was no goodbye. Julia is clearly in Joel's arms in the background of Zeek's hospital room in the previews.

 

I just don't get the Joel hate, but I'm bias b/c to me he is the healthy one in the relationship and always has been. He is her rock, but he expected her to be his too and SHE actually let him down. When he was getting success and doing well she couldn't be there and support him she let him down. That is why he left.

 

I have seen him grovel and grovel over and over and she groveled for about 5 mins before she moved on the hott teacher.

Just watched the show for the first time on netflix, so sorry if I'm years late on actual post...lol

I agree with you.  Julia didn't appreciate Joel and didn't respect him.  Personally or professionally.  She thought being at home with kids was easy and thought his career was less important than hers bc he made less $ and it also wasn't her career.  He was hurt and felt unappreciated, so maybe leaving wasn't the best but he did what he felt he had to. Zeek was the only one who talked to joel about the split and Julia had one conversation with her mom and certain few with siblings.  I feel like she didn't nothing to fight for her marriage.   She made no effort.  When Joel came over to fix the dishwasher, would have been a good time to do something to show your feelings other than letting him walk away.  To me ...taking off your wedding ring, going to the house of the person who led to the split and dating several other people isnt fighting.  That's moving on and being self centered.  Joel never took off his ring and dates no other women.  Shows me he never gave up the fight.   The elevator scene was POWERFUL.  Showed the love and how neither really wanted to end it.