S08.E11: Dark Water

[Llywela]

 

The show is not going to be good until there is a reset on Companions and storyline.

Which, unfortunately, I don't think Moffat is capable of. He has a very particular style and seems pretty set in it - even when he thinks he is resetting, we just get more of the same old same old. Even new companions and a new Doctor don't seem to change much.

 

What the show really needs is a clean broom to sweep out all the cobwebs and start again fresh - and as delightful as it is to have lifelong fans at the helm, drawing in all kinds of references to the past, I really think the show would benefit from a showrunner who hasn't been an obsessive fan all their life and therefore doesn't bring that kind of baggage with them, as both Moffat and Davies have.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Llywela

[ketose]

What the show really needs is a clean broom to sweep out all the cobwebs and start again fresh - and as delightful as it is to have lifelong fans at the helm, drawing in all kinds of references to the past, I really think the show would benefit from a showrunner who hasn't been an obsessive fan all their life and therefore doesn't bring that kind of baggage with them, as both Moffat and Davies have.

I don't even know if they're fans. They seem to be stuck at some age where seeing Daleks! or Cybermen! was so cool the story didn't matter. Plus, they loosed themselves of all restraints. In the original, the Doctor could go anywhere in time and space, but not directly. There were no time-locked cell phones. Galifrey still had a leash on him. Time could NOT be rewritten. When the Doctor showed up somewhere, it was because he was a part of history. The Weeping Angels episode may be the worst of the show because it introduced "timey-wimey."

[AudienceofOne]

The problem is that since Star Trek the Next Generation came after the original DW, the Cybermen and the Daleks are basically the Borg.

 

 

Original Who was written in the sixties right in the middle of the Cold War. The Daleks represent fascism and the Cybermen represent communism. That's why the Daleks are all about racial purity and conquest and the Cybermen believe that equality through total conformity genuinely makes life better for everybody. New Who's problem was decontextualising them and turning them both into standard robotic villians. Their interactions became more about screeching their tag lines so it's impossible to take them seriously.

 

The Borg represented a sort of generic form of collectivism designed to contrast with the libertarianism and almost aggressive individualism that had entrenched itself in US society by the early 90s. The ultimate narrative expression of which, of course, is the zombie genre which is basically an extreme xenophobic fear that the foreign hordes are coming and only a weapon will protect you.

 

I always found it kind of ironic since the concept of the Federation was born and grounded in the international collectivism promoted by institutions such as the UN in the early 60s (when Star Trek was created). That's why the Federation was multicultural, secular, inclusive and promoted concepts like equality and democracy.

 

So while they might seem the same, both have very different contexts in terms of what the shows are trying to say about society. New Who doesn't know what it's saying with its villians. That's its biggest flaw. Moffat in particular seems to think that the purpose of the villian is to be "scary". That's what makes his work so inherently shallow.

 

Edited because eventually I'll spell libertarianism correctly

Edited November 3, 2014 by AudienceofOne

[Llywela]

New Who doesn't know what it's saying with its villians anymore. That's its biggest flaw.

It's true. Mostly these days it's just saying, "wouldn't it be cool if...?" but then whatever that 'cool' scenario is, it fails to support the story built around it.

 

Which is not to say that the classic show didn't have its fair share of clunkers. But with the classic clunkers you generally know it'll be over by the end of that story, usually no longer than four episodes, and then you'll move onto a new story - the problem with the modern show is that when the story arc clunks, that weakness is spread over an entire season and drags stronger episodic stories down with it.

[AudienceofOne]

Mostly these days it's just saying, "wouldn't it be cool if...?" but then whatever that 'cool' scenario is, it fails to support the story built around it.

 

 

It's whiteboard story and character planning. All of his episodes and most of his characters I can see as three or four words on a whiteboard with "Cool!" written next to it. Which is fine but usually you then take it off the whiteboard and put a bit more thought into it.

[mary2013]

About how the Master came back - there was a very brief scene (maybe 3 seconds) in the Day of the Doctor, after the 3 Doctors came out of the picture, where a woman's hand was shown coming out of the picture.  I've assumed all season the hand belonged to Missy, and now we know who Missy is.

[elle]

About how the Master came back - there was a very brief scene (maybe 3 seconds) in the Day of the Doctor, after the 3 Doctors came out of the picture, where a woman's hand was shown coming out of the picture.  I've assumed all season the hand belonged to Missy, and now we know who Missy is.

Doesn't the hand belong to Clara as she pulls herself out of the picture?  Of course that brings up the Clara/Missy connection question again, if one prefers.

[Lugal]

Which, unfortunately, I don't think Moffat is capable of. He has a very particular style and seems pretty set in it - even when he thinks he is resetting, we just get more of the same old same old. Even new companions and a new Doctor don't seem to change much.

 

What the show really needs is a clean broom to sweep out all the cobwebs and start again fresh - and as delightful as it is to have lifelong fans at the helm, drawing in all kinds of references to the past, I really think the show would benefit from a showrunner who hasn't been an obsessive fan all their life and therefore doesn't bring that kind of baggage with them, as both Moffat and Davies have.

 

 

 

I don't even know if they're fans. They seem to be stuck at some age where seeing Daleks! or Cybermen! was so cool the story didn't matter. Plus, they loosed themselves of all restraints. In the original, the Doctor could go anywhere in time and space, but not directly. There were no time-locked cell phones. Galifrey still had a leash on him. Time could NOT be rewritten. When the Doctor showed up somewhere, it was because he was a part of history. The Weeping Angels episode may be the worst of the show because it introduced "timey-wimey."

 

There's a difference between having a fan at the helm and a fanboy (or fangirl) at the helm.  A fan, someone who knows and likes the original, running things is usually a good thing.  They know the show and enough of the history to make it good.  A fanboy is trapped at a certain point in time and will reject anything that doesn't fit their version of what they think it should be.

 

It's true. Mostly these days it's just saying, "wouldn't it be cool if...?" but then whatever that 'cool' scenario is, it fails to support the story built around it.

There's been a lot of bad writing lately (and not just Doctor Who) that doesn't know the difference between an idea and a story. 

 

 

The Borg represented a sort of generic form of collectivism designed to contrast with the libertarianism and almost aggressive individualism that had entrenched itself in US society by the early 90s. The ultimate narrative expression of which, of course, is the zombie genre which is basically an extreme xenophobic fear that the foreign hordes are coming and only a weapon will protect you.

It's funny, I always saw the Borg as representing materialism in general.  They were developed as a villain to replace the capitalist Ferengi.  The Borg were described as the "ultimate user" as they assimilate anything useful to them.  I also think they foreshadow the expansion of technology and computer revolution in the late 90s, and the cyberpunk fears that they would be used to control us.

[dr pepper]

Actually, i was hoping Missy would turn out to be Romana.

I wonder if Moffatt thinks he's super smart and no one guessed that Missy was the master..

 

 

That depends. Does he read this forum? Lots of people guessed that one early. I myself was hoping it wasn't.

Edited November 4, 2014 by dr pepper

[Llywela]

Actually, i was hoping Missy would turn out to be Romana.

But do you actually know Romana? I mean, have you watched her adventures, do you know her character? Because it would be the most horrific retcon of who she is to have her turn into evil Missy. The Master, I can believe. The Rani I could have believed. But not Romana.

 

Could a story be told about a good character going bad? Yes, but that story would have to be extremely well told to be worth destroying a fabulous character like Romana, the reasoning would have to be well thought through and well explained, and this show at this time is not capable of that.

[dr pepper]

Was it just me or did they never answer the question of what 3W stands for?  The guy said that it was the three questions, I think -- and that it would be revealed in the white noise translation recording.  But all they said was "please don't cremate me".  The dead are still aware -- okay, so where's the 3W?  

 

 

Can't answer it in part 1 of a 2 parter. But i think it stands for "We Were Wrong".

[dr pepper]

I thought for sure Missy was going to be either the Rani or Romana.  I was leaning towards Romana up until the big reveal because Romana was left in E-Space (Well she chose to stay there but the writers could easily chalk that up to being a mentally unstable incarnation.)

 

There's an audio series in which Romana becomes president of Gallifrey. In one adventure she stops a coalition (that includes the witches) from going back in time and stopping Rassilon from founding the time lords to begin with.

Edited November 4, 2014 by dr pepper

[BK1978]

But do you actually know Romana? I mean, have you watched her adventures, do you know her character? Because it would be the most horrific retcon of who she is to have her turn into evil Missy. The Master, I can believe. The Rani I could have believed. But not Romana.

 

Could a story be told about a good character going bad? Yes, but that story would have to be extremely well told to be worth destroying a fabulous character like Romana, the reasoning would have to be well thought through and well explained, and this show at this time is not capable of that.

 

Yes I did watch every episode she was on and like I said in my post I do think it could be possible.  They would not even have to do a big retcon to do it.  They could have set it up so that she had a bad regeneration where she went crazy.  Something along the lines of what they did with Colin Baker's Doctor.  Granted the sixth Doctor eventually became stable but they could have easily devoted some time to showing you what happened to her and why she ended up that way.

[Llywela]

Yes I did watch every episode she was on and like I said in my post I do think it could be possible.  They would not even have to do a big retcon to do it.  They could have set it up so that she had a bad regeneration where she went crazy.  Something along the lines of what they did with Colin Baker's Doctor.  Granted the sixth Doctor eventually became stable but they could have easily devoted some time to showing you what happened to her and why she ended up that way.

I'm afraid I just don't see it. The 6th Doctor was unstable for his first adventure, but even then he was still himself, still striving to do the right thing, if punctuated by fits of paranoia. Regeneration mania causes temporary instability - turning a good character like Romana evil is not even remotely the same thing. We're not talking temporary instability here but complete personality transplant. It would destroy the character and for what? A cheap bit of sensation that you and I both know would not be worth it, because they would not adequately delve into what happened to her and how the change came about, that's not how this writing team rolls.

 

Could the Time War have changed her? Sure. But the Doctor also went through the Time War and he didn't become evil because of it.

 

No, what you're suggesting is no different than if someone came along in 15 years time and said, "Hey, let's bring Rose back as a villain!" It could be done, with clever writing, but it would be a betrayal of the character and everyone who ever loved her and the benefit would not be worth the damage. What would be the point?

Edited November 4, 2014 by Llywela

[darkestboy]

People are talking about how Moffat might have thought that no-one would've guessed Missy was the Master. He was probably thinking of casual viewers, rather than us who follow/talk about the show online and on social media.

[Maelstrom]

So I made it through the first ten or fifteen minutes of this episode before I had to stop. And I've yet to force myself to finish watching, so I can't fairly comment on the show except to ask: 

 

Am I the only one wishing Twelve would've pushed Clara into the fires of Mount Doom and put us out of our misery already? Seriously, Gollum would make a far better companion than Clara. Providing the Doctor keeps him away from shiny jewelry, that is.

[tankgirl73]

I have a friend who is a huge fan and he's a new fan.  As in, he only started watching last year.  He became obsessed and caught up with all the nu who seasons in time to watch Deep Breath in the theatres right on schedule.  We went as part of a huge group, many in costume, or DW t-shirts, or sporting sonic screwdrivers, and he was beside himself in geek heaven.  We have many lengthy conversations on each episode -- character motivations and developments, whether or not it sucked, etc.  He's not a goofy 'fanboy', but he is a very excited new fan. 

 

He had no idea that Missy was the Master.  He was completely taken by surprise.  Stunned and shocked.  I was surprised that he hadn't heard of that speculation, and he is kicking himself for not making the connection.  But, indeed, he didn't.  Until she said it, he had no idea.

 

So, apparently, it is possible!

[Llywela]

So I made it through the first ten or fifteen minutes of this episode before I had to stop. And I've yet to force myself to finish watching, so I can't fairly comment on the show except to ask: 

 

Am I the only one wishing Twelve would've pushed Clara into the fires of Mount Doom and put us out of our misery already? Seriously, Gollum would make a far better companion than Clara. Providing the Doctor keeps him away from shiny jewelry, that is.

Heh. I had a similar reaction to that scene - desperation could have been conveyed without making Clara so very unlikeable. But it is worth watching the rest of the episode anyway. It gets better!

[Toaster Strudel]

What I hate the most about Clara is that I feel she was created from the mind of a misogynist, or at least someone with a very limited, negative, and stereotypical view of women.  Clara is emotional, selfish, deceitful, proud, insecure, demanding, draining, blackmailing... but she's cute as a button, so all is forgiven.  As a woman, Clara offends me.  I have been running away from this stereotype my whole life.

[tv-talk]

Am I the only one wishing Twelve would've pushed Clara into the fires of Mount Doom and put us out of our misery already? Seriously, Gollum would make a far better companion than Clara. Providing the Doctor keeps him away from shiny jewelry, that is.

 

 

I was really disappointed with the Doctor's reaction, at least after his initial calling her out. For a brief moment I thought maybe he was going to kick her off the TARDIS and then perhaps Missy would get her claws into Clara via promise of bringing Danny back. And of course all the while explaining to Clara that of course the Doctor could get Danny back if he wanted...it's just that he refused too. Now THAT could have been interesting.

 

Instead in typical 12 fashion the Doctor wimps out in the face of his superior and Clara gets her way. 

What I hate the most about Clara is that I feel she was created from the mind of a misogynist, or at least someone with a very limited, negative, and stereotypical view of women.  Clara is emotional, selfish, deceitful, proud, insecure, demanding, draining, blackmailing... but she's cute as a button, so all is forgiven.  As a woman, Clara offends me.  I have been running away from this stereotype my whole life.

 

 

I am definitely NOT going to go along with the misogynist angle...but agree 100% she represents a very limited view of women, basically she is what Moffat thinks will make women happy to see i.e. a super-strong character that orders the Doctor around and is always most important person in all of time and Creation. It's the equivalent of assuming that if you run a female politician, all women will automatically vote for her. Clara is an incomplete character who is often purely toxic, gender has nothing to do with that.

Edited November 4, 2014 by tv-talk

[Eozostrodon]

I can't help but contrast Clara threatening the Doctor to get Danny back with Rose trying to manipulate the Doctor to get to see her late father in Father's Day - the latter being beautifully handled with the Doctor being furious with her, it completely backfiring, and Rose ultimately learning to accept death and that you can't and shouldn't try to fight what is lost. If Clara does get Danny brought back to life just from throwing a tantrum I won't be happy.

[elle]

I was really disappointed with the Doctor's reaction, at least after his initial calling her out. For a brief moment I thought maybe he was going to kick her off the TARDIS and then perhaps Missy would get her claws into Clara via promise of bringing Danny back. And of course all the while explaining to Clara that of course the Doctor could get Danny back if he wanted...it's just that he refused too. Now THAT could have been interesting.

That would have been interesting, sort of a flip on the Turlough character who has been mentioned.  He was being manipulated by the Dark Guardian, but ultimately sides with The Doctor.  Here we would have a companion, The Impossible Girl no less, who out of desperation, grief, and pride turns to The Doctor's great enemy.  A brave writer could have written a story of ultimate betrayal with amazing fallout.

 

Yes, Missy, you would have chosen well.

 

He's not a goofy 'fanboy', but he is a very excited new fan.

tankgirl73, what is your friend's reaction to the NuClara?

Edited November 5, 2014 by elle

[cardigirl]

What I hate the most about Clara is that I feel she was created from the mind of a misogynist, or at least someone with a very limited, negative, and stereotypical view of women.  Clara is emotional, selfish, deceitful, proud, insecure, demanding, draining, blackmailing... but she's cute as a button, so all is forgiven.  As a woman, Clara offends me.  I have been running away from this stereotype my whole life.

 

She's also smart, and brave, and daring.  I like her.  And people are selfish sometimes, proud, demanding...otherwise they're doormats.   I suspect it's the "cute as a button" that bugs most people.  I would far rather see Clara taking control than some woman who can't get anything done without a man doing it for her.

[BizBuzz]

Finally got to see the episode.  I was spoiled, my daughter was not (15).  She was BLOWN away at the reveal, both of the Cybermen and The Master.  When the Doctor and Missy kissed, she was all, she is a Time Lord, The Doctor can tell she has two hearts.  Then she said a bit later, OMG, I think it's Romana, don't you Momma?  I couldn't answer, but I thought it interesting on who she thought it was.

 

But as soon as the reveal happened, she looked at me and said, HOW DID HE SURVIVE?

 

I actually thoroughly enjoyed every moment of this episode.  It was quite freaky and I hate to even say it cause I am not a big Moffat as showrunner fan, but he had me more than a few times even though I was quite spoiled. 

 

I don't have a lot of Clara love, but I will say that Jenna acted the HANG out of this episode.  Wow.

[elle]

Finally got to see the episode.  I was spoiled, my daughter was not (15).  She was BLOWN away at the reveal, both of the Cybermen and The Master.  When the Doctor and Missy kissed, she was all, she is a Time Lord, The Doctor can tell she has two hearts.  Then she said a bit later, OMG, I think it's Romana, don't you Momma?  I couldn't answer, but I thought it interesting on who she thought it was.

Neat!  It sounds like you had as much if not more fun watching your daughter watching the show.

 

But as soon as the reveal happened, she looked at me and said, HOW DID HE SURVIVE?

Smart girl!  :0)

[Maelstrom]

What the show really needs is a clean broom to sweep out all the cobwebs and start again fresh

Absolutely! At this point there's too much poorly-written baggage gumming up the works for me to enjoy the show anymore.

 

Heh. I had a similar reaction to that scene - desperation could have been conveyed without making Clara so very unlikeable. But it is worth watching the rest of the episode anyway. It gets better!

Glad to hear it gets better! I figured it couldn't get any worse - but I probably shouldn't say that too loudly...

[shapeshifter]

...I think 3W = "Three Words" = "Don't Cremate Me." Chilling as hell, wouldn't you say?...

Yes. And I guess I was the only one who was expecting: I love you

...So Scary Poppins is really the Master....

"Scary Poppins" should be canonized right now, last week.

The Cybermen. The slow, dull, stainless steel cybermen. Ha! At the end, when a handful of them were clanking down the stairs while the Doctor shouted "run! run!" I was thinking, "or just walk slightly faster!" Or hell, duck into any building with a revolving door....

Exactly! You always manage to give words to what so many are thinking! So much like The Emperor's New Clothes.

I found that anti-cremation stuff to be highly offensive, until they revealed it's just a ruse to keep the body intact for Cybermanning....

There wasn't really an "until..." for me. I mean, what about children watching who just lost a grandparent? This could have been done differently.

And, if like me, they couldn't stop thinking about the beginning:

...I was thinking "You really should pay attention to crossing the road and not to chatting with your girlfriend, I've seen a PSA about that"....

--well, children may be telling therapists for many years about how this episode impacted them with permanent anxiety. Is that what they were going for??

People are talking about how Moffat might have thought that no-one would've guessed Missy was the Master. He was probably thinking of casual viewers, rather than us who follow/talk about the show online and on social media.

I'm actually pretty casual these days--just watched this episode--so I didn't know who Scary Poppins ( by Lantern7) would be. I was underwhelmed.

[ganesh]

I'm a casual viewer. I only watch the episodes once. I don't follow a show's media because I don't want to know casting, etc. I figured Missy was a 'mythology' character returned, and really, they're probably only going to bring back the Master. 

 

I'm surprised that he regenerated into a woman, although I'm aware that's possible. I'm hoping this plants the seed for a future female Doctor. 

[random chance]

There wasn't really an "until..." for me. I mean, what about children watching who just lost a grandparent? This could have been done differently.

And, if like me, they couldn't stop thinking about the beginning:--well, children may be telling therapists for many years about how this episode impacted them with permanent anxiety. Is that what they were going for?

I was pretty freaked out by this episode myself, I'd hate to think what it would have done to the child me. There have been other Who episodes that made me wonder why anyone would let a child watch it - like that Christmas one where the dad dies and then he's alive again. There's scaring kids temporarily (before the monster is subdued) and then there's scarring them for life by introducing them to concepts like, their dad might come back if mom tries hard enough.

[Eolivet]

After seeing this episode, I'm convinced Moffat is like the partner who's obsessed with Doctor Who's ex, Russell T. Davies. Moffat moved in to Doctor Who's house and went through all of its drawers. He found all of Doctor Who's pictures with RTD, blacked out RTD's face, and pasted his own over it. When Moffat and Doctor Who are together, he's constantly asking Doctor Who, "I'm better than him, right? Right? I'm the best you've ever had? Right? He's nothing compared to me!"

 

Rewriting the Master in the same episode where one liberally cribs "Doomsday" in concept ("ghosts" were Cybermen = dead bodies were Cybermen) takes a lot of nerve. What's left? John Smith from "Family of Blood" was secretly a member of the Silence? Nothing would surprise me now.

[PWHCHCH]

After seeing this episode, I'm convinced Moffat is like the partner who's obsessed with Doctor Who's ex, Russell T. Davies. Moffat moved in to Doctor Who's house and went through all of its drawers. He found all of Doctor Who's pictures with RTD, blacked out RTD's face, and pasted his own over it. When Moffat and Doctor Who are together, he's constantly asking Doctor Who, "I'm better than him, right? Right? I'm the best you've ever had? Right? He's nothing compared to me!"

 

This sums up SM so much! He has his own agenda when it comes to this show. It smacks of arrogance and he is so smug about it all. Ugh. Id hate to be around him I think. 

 

While RTD was show runner a lot of people gave him flack for his writing style but Id give anything to have him back at the helm of the show.