S04.E05: Breaking Glass

[Amerilla]

Wow. "Tiny", "Selfless, Brave and True", "Kansas"... Yeah, she really seems to be one of the weakest links in the writer room.

 

If there's an episode with a tremendous amount of "WTF?" moments in it, pretty good odds Kalinda was either the main or co-writer. She seems to be their blunt insturment....she'll get the chapter from what ever A to Z the overall story requires, but she'll sacrifice logic, backstory and characterization to get it done.

 

Chambliss is co-writer on tonight's script, so that should help temper her basic instincts to f**k canon and commonsense. In "Breaking Glass," not so much.

[YaddaYadda]

So Kalinda Vasquez might be a hack in general, but aren't these scripts read by A&E?  If they're okay with what' written and are okay with sacrificing the characters to advance their plot point (see Emma, Hook, Snow...even freakin' Belle who has no personality at all now) then it's on them.

[Serena]

I think that's where the writers failed with the whole thing. Beyond Emma enduring endless abuse without a word and then begging for Regina's friendship, I don't think anything actually changed with regards to Regina's general outlook on things. She's still all in on Operation Mongoose and getting her deserved happy ending. Regina didn't actually experience any growth and even her fans were put off by her regression. You can't have her being all white magic hero and on a path to self-improvement and then throw this kind of crap into the mix. It was understandable and fit her characterization, but fans who bought into her redemptive arc last season were confused when this happened because it made a mockery of what happened in 3B. 

Apparently, white magic is something you can take on and off, like clothes. In a good mood today? White magic for you! Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed and decide you wanna do some murderin' today? Ooops, I guess you'll have some reddish magic. But don't worry, the next time it's plot convenient, you only need to wish really hard and you'll have the white magic back!

White magic: kind of like a mood ring, really.

 

Fun fact: Tallahassee was also co-written by a new writer at the time.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Serena

[dialyn]

I just started watching this series this year so you can imagine how confused I am.  I decided to go back and watch the the seasons I missed, and I have to say that my confusion is worse.  I really don't understand Emma almost begging to be friends with Regina when Regina seems to have been wretched to her from the beginning.  A friend of mine, who has been following from the beginning, told me that Rumpelstiltskin had been bad but that he was good this season, but I see no evidence of that--he seems to still be a manipulative liar (I did get to the part about his back story but that doesn't change my opinion).  It is a strangely addictive series to watch as the various fairy tales get folded in (though I assume some get weeded out to keep the number of characters somewhat manageable).  And I love some of the little touches (the opening title animation, for example).  I'm going to continue to try to catch up on the series (there's not that much on television I care about watching anyway) but I don't know if this is clarifying my understanding or not.  It is very interesting to read about the writers.  I am impressed by how closely people pay attention to what is going on with the series. The forums help, somewhat, clear up some questions.

[Dani-Ellie]

I really don't understand Emma almost begging to be friends with Regina when Regina seems to have been wretched to her from the beginning.

 

You're not alone, and at least in my experience, having seen the show from the beginning wouldn't help, as I have and I'm still "WTF?!"-ing over it a week later. ;)

[YaddaYadda]

I really don't understand Emma almost begging to be friends with Regina when Regina seems to have been wretched to her from the beginning.

 

I don't think anyone understands why anyone, let alone Snow and Emma want to be friends with Regina.  Sure, we can put the past behind us and move on, but when Regina is intentionally mean, then just no.  I think the worst is that Emma wasn't even allowed to defend herself at all but then went and called herself "stupid" to which Regina agreed wholeheartedly, because you know she would.

 

I never really had a problem with Regina until mid-3A.  I was just fine with her.  Now I just want to go to Ikea, build a table so that I can flip it over and break it and start all over again. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

(Her first solo outing was that abomination known as Quiet Minds.)

This episode was comparable with Quiet Minds in the pacing, but with Bleeding Through in the "creepy" plot that assassinated another character. (Cora, now Emma) This is my least favorite episode of S4 so far. I didn't really like the Apprentice too much, but this episode definitely broke the record. 

 

Traditionally, the 4th or 5th episode of a set is really weak. (Nasty Habits, The Doctor, Tiny, That Still Small Voice, Quiet Minds, etc.)

Edited November 2, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FurryFury]

Fun fact: Tallahassee was also co-written by a new writer at the time.

 

Well, parts of Tallahassee worked pretty well for me. I mean, the Emma/Hook parts. Very cliched, but still fun (although I'd dial back on the UST, personally - I mean, I love this type of dynamic, but it was a bit too much, too fast). The Emma/Neal stuff, however? The complete opposite, it was awful. To this day, I can't understand people who loved this relationship based on that episode, because there was nothing likable about it.

 

Traditionally, the 4th or 5th episode of a set is really weak. (Nasty Habits, The Doctor, Tiny, That Still Small Voice, Quiet Minds, etc.)

 

I actually didn't mind "The Doctor". Not one of the show's strongest outings, but it was perfectly watchable, and Young Regina circa the start of her apprenticeship is my favorite Regina ever (I truly enjoyed her trying to summon Rumple and getting his name wrong). And I like Whale, so I didn't mind an ep centered around him. 

Other 4th episodes, though? Totally agree. This season didn't fare much better, although the 5th ep was even worse.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I actually didn't mind "The Doctor".

I didn't either, it's just probably one of the weaker 2A episodes to some people. The Crocodile was worse, and it was the 4th.

Edited November 2, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

I believe Adam and Eddy look over all scripts one final time and tweak them before they are approved. While the individual writers do the bulk of the writing, Adam and Eddy have a hand in the initial conception and the final product. In what universe did they, an of them, think it was as excellent idea for an episode to have the most un-selfaware character in the show verbally eviscerate the supposed main character and "good" guy of the show? The mind boggles. If they were trying to present it as Regina at her self-deluded worst, it would have been a different thing. The writers are presenting Regina's insane stance as somehow justified, when there are actual crimes that she committed that no one even knows (like the long-term rape, and eventual murder of Graham, her mind-wipe of Henry, etc..). She is shown to have White Magic and True Love for the same son she abused for years without ever regretting anything wrong she did, and whom she continues to use to gain her elusive Happy Ending. She wouldn't even admit that Henry was unhappy in 3B (and Snow played it off as a phase).

[stealinghome]

Also, quite frankly, if Adam and Eddie see that one writer is noticeably weaker than the rest, it's their job to a) get rid of that person or b) help them improve.

 

I would make the general comment that in any season/half-season of Once, the first few and last few episodes tend to be pretty strong, but the middle is where it all goes to shit. You can see it in 1A, in S1 as a whole, in both 2A and S2 as a whole, and certainly 3A and 3B both. Unfortunately, we've just hit that part of 4A where the quality drops noticeably. I expect it won't really pick up again until episode 8 or 9, so...a few more weeks of blah-ness.

[Camera One]

Awesome points about the writers... I'm going to reply in the All-Seasons thread.

[jhlipton]

Did Lilith ping anyone else's gaydar?  Just me then?  

[Zuleikha]

I had read before watching this that a lot of people felt it was a Swan Queen queerbaiting episode and man did I agree! The present day stuff wasn't so bad other than Emma being poorly written, but the flashback stuff was just weird. I felt like I'd accidentally switched channels to a CW show about teenage lesbian orphans on the run together (which is a show I would have watched the heck out of back when I was a teenager!). I get that the nominal purpose of the flashback was to show that Emma gives up on friendship too easily and set up the Snow Queen reveal at the end, but it seemed more like trying to establish that Emma was pursuing Regina's friendship out of unresolved feelings for Lily. That's just weird and IMHO not consistent with Emma/Regina's friendship in anything prior to this. 

 

Emma's guilt about Marian was also inconsistent with her strong (and sane!) direct response to Regina that Emma wasn't going to feel bad about saving a woman's life. I think Emma wanting a return of her working relationship and incipient friendship with Regina was in character. But the sort of simpering approach was not.

 

I didn't mind Regina's snark, though. I thought the way LP played it was that Regina was fronting. I read it as both a trying to push Emma away out of general walled off tendencies, but also trying to keep Emma from learning about the re-mirroring of Sidney out of shame. 

 

I loved getting some resolution to Sidney's plot and character, too. I loved that he finally recognized Regina treated him terribly and had the independence to betray her to the Snow Queen. I hope this isn't the end for his character. I'd like at least one more follow up episode with him learning to find his own meaning in life.

[Mari]

I didn't mind Regina's snark, though. I thought the way LP played it was that Regina was fronting. I read it as both a trying to push Emma away out of general walled off tendencies, but also trying to keep Emma from learning about the re-mirroring of Sidney out of shame. 

A lot of the problems with the episode stem not from Regina's reaction, but from other characters not being written in a way that allowed them to stand up to her.  It was pretty gross that the show was framing it like Regina was a victim because someone she killed turned out to actually not be dead.  Yuck.

 

 As for the queerbaiting thing?  To make it worse, I believe it was promoted with hearts and romantic-looking things in the Once social media. Not good.

 

What particular scenes led to your impression that Regina was fronting and ashamed of mirroring Sidney?

[Camera One]

A lot of the problems with the episode stem not from Regina's reaction, but from other characters not being written in a way that allowed them to stand up to her.

 

That was what was weird to me as well.  I mean, what exactly was Emma's response to finding out Regina trapped Sidney into the Mirror?  Did she not care because Sidney was a bad person?  Even Regina admitting she thought about killing Marion did not phase Emma at all since she had zero response.  Nor did it change Emma's response at the end saying all she wants was for to be Regina's friend.  Is this what Emma inherited from Snow, who has reacted similarly in the past?  Does Emma have so much faith in Regina to do the right thing, that she isn't worried?  Since that seems to be Henry's mindset now.  Yet the writers have him saying, "You don't think she'll become evil again." in the season premiere, so it seems like he believes that is a definite possibility.  It all seems so inconsistent.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Camera One

[tennisgurl]

Yeah, when I complain about Regina, it`s frequently not about Regina herself, its about how she`s framed by the show, or how people respond to her. It`s downright creepy how the show constantly frames her as a good guy, despite the fact that she still does awful things, and suffers no consequences for the terrible things she has done in the past. The Sydney thing is just the most recent messed up thing. I can`t even say its out of character for Emma to not care about the awful things Regina does. It`s sad, but this is just how she is written now. She has an enormous blind spot for her, for reasons no one understands.     

[Shanna Marie]

I mean, what exactly was Emma's response to finding out Regina trapped Sidney into the Mirror?  Did she not care because Sidney was a bad person?

Emma knew he took the fall for Regina's frame job against Mary Margaret, so while Sidney did help set Emma up, she knew he was also a Regina victim, that he was put in the asylum so Regina could skate for framing Mary Margaret when Emma knew Regina had done it. But I guess we're not supposed to think about that sort of thing.

[Zuleikha]

What particular scenes led to your impression that Regina was fronting and ashamed of mirroring Sidney?

 

It was Lana's line delivery and body language when she was talking with Emma about looking for the Snow Queen and when she was asked about Sidney. It wasn't anything in the text. I'm not sure what the writer's intention was. 

[Mari]

Yeah, when I complain about Regina, it`s frequently not about Regina herself, its about how she`s framed by the show, or how people respond to her. It`s downright creepy how the show constantly frames her as a good guy, despite the fact that she still does awful things, and suffers no consequences for the terrible things she has done in the past. The Sydney thing is just the most recent messed up thing. I can`t even say its out of character for Emma to not care about the awful things Regina does. It`s sad, but this is just how she is written now. She has an enormous blind spot for her, for reasons no one understands.     

Yes.  This episode--which Regina spends shrilling and shrieking at Emma for "ruining her life" is particularly bizarre.  It's not that Regina is a narcissistic sociopath who gives absolutely no figs whatsoever to who she stomps to get what she wants, as long as it's not someone she finds entertaining.  I would still not like the character, but, well, I don't like everyone.  It's a flaw.

 

It's that Regina does that, and it's treated by the show, and the rest of the cast, as if it's perfectly normal, and healthy, and--in the terms used by TS, TW--"heroic". 

 

I can understand Regina thinking that no one's feelings but Regina's are important.  That's pretty typical Regina.  I do not understand that everyone else feels that way, too.  Um . . . no.  Just, no.

 

I fanwank that most of Storybrooke accepts it simply because they were all under memory spells that Regina was in charge of --kind of a side-effect that has really, really worked out for her.

 

It works for Emma and Henry, too, because they've now been memory spelled by Regina, and their most egregious Regina suck-ups have happened after the midseason 3 memory wipe.

 

 

 

It was Lana's line delivery and body language when she was talking with Emma about looking for the Snow Queen and when she was asked about Sidney. It wasn't anything in the text. I'm not sure what the writer's intention was. 

Thanks.  :)

I guess I didn't see her body language quite the same way.  Unfortunately, there was nothing in the text that softens Regina's abysmal behavior this episode--and we're left with a Regina who not only doesn't see that she's repeatedly victimized Emma, but that Emma has helped her multiple times.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Mari

[Camera One]

Based on the parallels in this episode, Emma accepts Regina's treatment of her, since she knows Regina is just acting out as a way of hiding her deep internal wish to be loved.  As she says at the end of the episode, only Regina can understand what Emma has been through... Snow, Charming, Henry, etc. can't.  Emma remembers how she lashed out against Lily even though Emma was more angry at the universe for giving her false hope and screwing her over once again, and she interprets Regina lashing out at her, as having the same root cause.  There, I've just tried to take a journey into the minds of A&E, Jane Espenson and the rest of them.  

[Serena]

It was Lana's line delivery and body language when she was talking with Emma about looking for the Snow Queen and when she was asked about Sidney. It wasn't anything in the text. I'm not sure what the writer's intention was. 

I'm pretty sure Lana wasn't feeling the episode. I mean, even if, who's the biggest Regina apologist of all, in interviews was like "Regina is a huge bitch to Emma in this episode", so yeah.

[KAOS Agent]

Lana said that Regina wanted to strangle Emma and that Emma deserved it, so that's how I interpreted Regina's actions. She meant it completely. 

 

 

I believe this is also the episode that sparked Graham-gate 2014. Emma supposedly ruined Regina's life by keeping her from killing her lover's wife (divorce is a thing, people), but we can't ever revisit the fact that Regina murdered Emma's friend and potential romantic partner out of spite. In Adam's words, "She'd be upset if she knew." I doubt it. The way they write Emma's reaction to Regina these days, she'd probably just shrug. 

[Camera One]

If I remember correctly, this episode was a real fan favorite, LOL. Looking at the synopsis in the first post, I can't see anything that evokes a positive response.  

From least worst element to the worst:

Quote

With Belle babysitting baby Neal, a nervous Mary Margaret and David prepare for their first date night away from their child and find themselves on a mission to track down Will Scarlet, who has escaped from the town jail.

This might be the least worst, simply because it wasn't outright insulting.  But talk about pointless "use" of Will.   Was this supposed to be character development for Snow?

Quote

Young Emma finds herself a kindred spirit when she befriends a girl who, like her, is a runaway orphan.

I think I hate this even more in light of the rest of the season.  This was a toxic friendship and Emma was right to walk away.  It's hard to pick between this one and the next:

Quote

Elsa sees Anna in the Storybrooke woods.

This was beyond tediously boring.  And predictable as hell.

Quote

Regina reluctantly teams up with Emma to search for the Snow Queen after Sidney, who is once again Regina's prisoner in the mirror, discovers her whereabouts and agrees to lead her to the location.

As if it couldn't get worse, and we got this subplot.  I think we have all memorized that iconic line, "All I want is to be your friend."  

Edited February 2, 2019 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

The best part of this episode was Sidney screwing over Regina and telling her off and being freed by Ingrid. Long live the Snow Queen!

As a fun comparison let's look at "hero" Regina's dialogue with Sidney and his with the "evil" Snow Queen.

Snow Queen: You're free. As promised.

Sidney: Thank you. Now, what is it you wish me to do first, my queen?

Snow Queen: I wish nothing from you.

Sidney: I don't understand. The deal was...
* Insert a bunch of babble from the Snow Queen about reflections here*

Snow Queen: Enjoy your freedom, Sidney. A word of advice. Get a warm coat. It's going to get a bit cooler around here.

And here's Regina, Hero Extraordinaire and definitely not a monster...

Sidney: My queen, I have news. I have found the Snow Queen's lair.

Regina: Well, where is it?

Sidney: I think a little quid pro quo is in order, don't you? I'm growing tired of this glass prison.

Regina: Let's see if your information yields results. Then we can discuss your freedom.

Sidney: You expect me to give up my leverage before I've received anything in return? Do you think me an imbecile?

Regina: I think I've trapped you in a mirror twice. And if you find them too constricting, well, then... Perhaps you'd like to return to your cell at the hospital.

Sidney: Upon further reflection, it appears I don't have the leverage I thought. Listen closely. I will lead you to her.
 

Edited February 2, 2019 by KAOS Agent

[Shanna Marie]

The only redeeming part of this episode was the bit at the end when Emma and Hook go through her box of childhood treasures. The way he reverently looks at each item and smiles with some amusement at times but without ever mocking her is sweet, and then there's the way he looks like he's having to swallow a lump in his throat when he sees the picture of Neal (in my head, younger Neal looks like a slightly older version of Bae instead of having crow's feet so prominent that they show up in the photo).

Otherwise, I'm utterly baffled how they paralleled teen Emma getting lied to and manipulated by another girl whose life reeks of privilege she doesn't appreciate with Emma getting berated and belittled by Regina -- and in both cases the show indicates that Emma's the one at fault for not being a good friend. She's apparently supposed to have been grateful for the friendship of someone who had everything Emma wished she could have, didn't appreciate it, pretended she was in the same situation as Emma, lied about it all, and then got Emma sent back into the system with her thoughtlessness. And Emma's the one who has to chase after the person who's mad at her for not letting her execute someone and who outright lied to her about Sidney.

The Charmings' plot made little sense, either. It's weird how they were heading out on a hike in utter darkness. Meanwhile, Hook was taking Henry sailing around nightfall. And Will spent more time in jail for passing out in the library than Regina did for mass murder, casting the curse, and attempting to murder Emma. They also seem to have forgotten that Sidney was locked up in the first place for Regina's crimes, covering for Regina when she plotted Kathryn's murder. But Emma's the one to beg for friendship from Regina. UGH.

Also, Regina's slacks were oddly fitted on her. And where did Elsa suddenly get that cloak? Did she conjure it up? Pull it out of the urn? I thought the cold didn't bother her, so why did she even need a cloak? It looked like the cloak for a Halloween costume bought at Target. I wonder why Elsa didn't get some modern clothes more suitable for running around in the woods while they were investigating. Did they think we'd forget she was Elsa if she wasn't wearing the sparkly gown?

And since when is Regina the only one who can understand being rejected? Regina was the freaking queen. She was the one who rejected others. If she was rejected, it was because she was murdering people and casting curses to destroy their happiness. What about Snow, who was kicked out of her own castle by her stepmother, hunted down, and nearly executed? (Emma was there, so she knows about that) What about Hook, who was abandoned by his own father?

I think this may actually be the shark jump episode. As I recall, it never gets really good again after this point.

[Camera One]

So I got 5 minutes into the episode before my blood started to boil.  Emma reminisces about Season 1 and how she and Regina "hated one another.  Hate might be the wrong word, but we did not mix."  If someone didn't watch the first few seasons, they might have assumed they got off on the wrong foot and wanted the same parking space or something.  Remember when she framed your mother for murder?  Encouraged your amnesiac father to sleep with his fake wife?  Intentionally manipulated Henry's feelings to turn him against you?  And oh wait, remember how tried to poison you?    

When Elsa encouragingly said maybe things between Emma and Regina can get better again, and right before it cuts back to the flashback, Emma says, "Doubt it.  I screwed her over.  Once you screw someone over, there's no getting them back."   Now Emma believes she did screw Regina over?  In the premiere, she defended her actions and said she wasn't going to apologize for saving a woman's life.

Was Emma remembering how she lost her friend Lily so in the present because that made her want extra badly to be Regina's friend again?   Was the message that Emma screwed Lily over and she regretted it?  Or was she reflecting on how she couldn't get over Lily screwing her over and regretted not forgiving her?  

Emma to Lily: "You had my back.  And I've got yours."  And then it transitions back to the present with Emma and Regina.  And then Adult Emma says "Despite everything, you've done a lot for me.  You've had my back and I want you to know I've have yours." Arrrrghhhhhhhh!

Regina had the gall to respond Emma has never had her back.  Uh, what about when Emma and her parents saved you from the Wraith?  Agreed to face the Wicked Witch with you on Main Street?  Frickin' risked the entire town so you wouldn't die in the Season 2 finale?

Edited February 2, 2019 by Camera One

[daxx]

39 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

And where did Elsa suddenly get that cloak? Did she conjure it up? Pull it out of the urn? I thought the cold didn't bother her, so why did she even need a cloak?

I had this same thought.

As to the rest of the episode. That part at the beginning where Hook brings the box is cute and that next scene where they go through Emma’s memories is sweet.  What? There was more? Shortest episode ever.

[Kktjones]

I will admit to not re-watching this one, but I clearly recall feeling sick to my stomach the first time I watched it. They somehow manage to paint Emma as being in the wrong both in the past and the present - even though she's playing the opposite role in each. This episode was fan pandering at it's very very worst. At least Emma had Elsa with her for most of the time and then Hook was there to support her in the end. Regina's behavior is just...UGH.

[andromeda331]

I hate this episode. Its too bad some parts were good. Emma and Hook looking over her box of treasurers. But no let's get Emma thinking she and Regina just didn't get along. Yes, Emma, having someone frame your mother, gaslighting your son, murdering Graham, attempting to murder you, and oh yeah let's not forget targeting your mother which lead to hundreds or thousands of people being cursed and you being ripped apart from your parents. Now Emma thinks she screwed Regina over? How Emma? Oh, right because you broke the curse. So Regina's 28 year revenge and happy ever after or whatever ended. Its scenes like that make me think that all of this is in Regina's head and she's really locked up somewhere and has been since 2B. None of this makes any sense. It makes no sense that Emma believes that or would say that. 

I do like Emma and Elsa relationship. Its nice to see Emma have a friend again but it also makes miss the Emma-Mary Margaret friendship and how the writers ruined that.

Snow's storyline could have been really good. I hate how they completely forget Snow's reason for not wanting to leave Baby Snowflake alone. They act like she's the usual mother not wanting to let her baby out of her sight instead of someone who had to send her first born away to save her from a curse. She missed out on 28 years of Emma's life, she was originally going to go with Emma which has to make it hurt more. And she also almost lost Baby Snowflake. That's two out of two that were taken from her. Luckily she got Baby Snowflake back a lot sooner. But no everyone treats her like she's irrational or something instead of someone who has a legitimate reason to worry. It drives me crazy. 

I feel so bad for the actor who plays Will. They just wasted his time and character for nothing. There's a lot they could have done with the character and they chose to do absolutely nothing. 

[tennisgurl]

So, this week in "Regina is the absolute fucking worst and an actual garbage person..."

I really forgot how much I hated this episode. With a lot of awful episodes, I can remember that I hate it, and prepare myself, but this one managed to sneak up on me. I remember the infuriating Lily flashbacks, but I forgot how much of this episode was dedicated to Emma begging for Regina's forgiveness for having the nerve to save one of her literally countless victims, while Regina acts like the biggest asshole in the multiverse, while the show still wants us to feel bad for her. Listening to Regina be an asshole like Emma over and over, and actually DARE to compare Emma's supposed guilt to her supposed guilt (Emma saved a person. Regina has murdered and raped and genocided her way through an entire universe) is nails on a freaking chalkboard. Its so fucking awful and lacking in self awareness, its not just awful, its fully disturbing. Oh, Emma ruined Regina's life? Emma, ruined Regina's life?!? Have we just forgotten Regina straight up ruined Emma's life for absolutely no reason beyond her own petty bullshit, separated her from her loving family and set her up for a life of abuse and abandonment, tried to fucking MURDER HER like a month ago, and almost destroyed their whole town and everyone Emma knows and loves, among countless other atrocities towards Emma and her family and friends?! While Emma saved an innocent woman, who happened to mean that Regina had to break up with the guy who was dating for a couple weeks. Oh no, what a monster she is, they are exactly the same!!! I swear, if you could combine the horrible hypocrisy, asshole behavior, and entitled whining of Regina and the Newbies from Arrow, you could probably power the entire planet for several decades. You could power several worlds for several decades! Like, how can this show think that this makes any sense? How can they think people will root for this horrible person? If I was a Swan Queen fan, I would be disturbed that my ship looks increasingly like an abusive relationship, where one person is a punching bag for the other person who is convinced they deserve it, and keeps coming back for more. 

Speaking of, I just cant with Lily. Its all so stupid, I just cannot. Not only does Emma apparently have some amazing lifelong connection with this random girl she has known for two hours, but its another chances to deal with Emma and her WALLS and she is apparently in the wrong for not giving this privileged bratty girls apology instantly. Really, it just makes me sad that Emma is so lonely and damaged that she is constantly searching for affection from people who dont deserve her loyalty. 

Despite all of that, there is some parts of this that I like. The Snow and Charming stuff was cute, if kinda stupid, and I love watching Emma and Hook together. I hate that Hook is keeping this stupid secret from her though, its really hurting this adorable snuggling and reminders of Emma's life. And all in the service of stupid plot, and stupid pointless character conflicts, so thanks for that! But if I ignore that, its still so sweet and I love it so much. At least Hook truly cares about Emma and treats her well, which is certainly more than her supposed bestie Regina. And I just love the Snow Queen and Elizabeth Mitchell in the role. After so many super hammy camp villains cackling away throughout their story arcs, its so refreshing to have this super cool and collected bad guy, who can go from comforting to threatening without missing a beat. She is so elegant and classy, and yet also dangerous and scary, but without feeling super overpowered. The scenes with her and Elsa are really great, I love every scene with them. "I`m gonna build a snowman." 

I also dont know what it says that Our Hero Regina still treats Sidney like a slave and like absolute garbage, while Big Bad Snow Queen treats him with kindness and lets him go without any strings attached. I know that Sidney isnt an innocent bystander in all of this, but I do feel rather bad for him and how he is still so obsessed with Regina, who even as a good guy enslaves and abuses him for her own person gain, and I consider anyone who calls Regina out an being a hypocritical piece of shit is a hero to me at this point. 

[Shanna Marie]

On 2/2/2019 at 12:37 PM, andromeda331 said:

Snow's storyline could have been really good. I hate how they completely forget Snow's reason for not wanting to leave Baby Snowflake alone. They act like she's the usual mother not wanting to let her baby out of her sight instead of someone who had to send her first born away to save her from a curse. She missed out on 28 years of Emma's life, she was originally going to go with Emma which has to make it hurt more. And she also almost lost Baby Snowflake. That's two out of two that were taken from her. Luckily she got Baby Snowflake back a lot sooner. But no everyone treats her like she's irrational or something instead of someone who has a legitimate reason to worry. It drives me crazy. 

On top of that, the kid is maybe a week old at this point in the story. Is it all that unusual for a woman who gave birth a week ago to not be super keen on leaving her infant with a babysitter so she can go out? Isn't it fairly normal for someone with a week-old newborn to want to stay home with the baby? She's probably exhausted, her body is still recovering, the baby needs really frequent feedings, and that's very important bonding time. Not to mention, Snow is probably extra exhausted since she was forced to go back to work within a couple of days of giving birth because apparently Regina's sadness about her boyfriend breaking up with her is more important than Snow's need for any kind of maternity leave. This is another one of those cases where the writers seem to have confused the real-world timeline with the show timeline. If it's November and the baby was born in May, then, yeah, it's unhealthy for the mom to be so paranoid that she still won't leave the child with a babysitter, and it's good for her husband to encourage her to get out and find her groove again. But when the mom gave birth a week or so ago, a husband who demands that his wife leave the kid with a babysitter so he and his wife can go on a hiking trip and then sets up an incident to get her interested in going back to work (never mind that she is actually back at work) is insensitive, if not borderline abusive.

[Camera One]

On 2/2/2019 at 10:37 AM, andromeda331 said:

I do like Emma and Elsa relationship. Its nice to see Emma have a friend again but it also makes miss the Emma-Mary Margaret friendship and how the writers ruined that.

Yes, that was something I really liked, despite Elsa trying to make Emma feel better about her rift with Regina and giving her hope that they would be BFFs again soon.  That was okay because Elsa had no idea who Regina was before, and Emma never really told Elsa what Regina did to her or her family (though you'd think Elsa would have found out at least some of it).

For all of A&E's BS about exploring other types of love, they really de-valued friendships on this show.  4A was one of the few times that there were some nice friend conversations.  Elsa was really good at that, whether with Emma, Hook or Snow.  She was so genuine and caring and could relate to almost everyone. 

It doesn't work when the show forces the main cast to have "friend" conversations when the level of trust isn't there.  That's why none of the conversations between Regina and Emma, or Regina and Snow work.  Because I never bought that they could be true friends. 

Even in 3B, most of the personal conversations were with love interests (or with Regina), cutting out even family (with Emma, for example - eventually all her deeper conversations were only with Hook).  

Edited February 3, 2019 by Camera One

[profdanglais]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

If I was a Swan Queen fan, I would be disturbed that my ship looks increasingly like an abusive relationship, where one person is a punching bag for the other person who is convinced they deserve it, and keeps coming back for more. 

Except most Swan Queen fans don't give a damn about Emma and just want Regina to have the shiny toy they think she wants, or has "chemistry" with.

*SHUDDER*

So if you shipped SQ you'd probably just think that Emma was finally giving Regina the appreciation she deserves, or some such abusive and offensive nonsense. 

[andromeda331]

8 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

On top of that, the kid is maybe a week old at this point in the story. Is it all that unusual for a woman who gave birth a week ago to not be super keen on leaving her infant with a babysitter so she can go out? Isn't it fairly normal for someone with a week-old newborn to want to stay home with the baby? She's probably exhausted, her body is still recovering, the baby needs really frequent feedings, and that's very important bonding time. Not to mention, Snow is probably extra exhausted since she was forced to go back to work within a couple of days of giving birth because apparently Regina's sadness about her boyfriend breaking up with her is more important than Snow's need for any kind of maternity leave. This is another one of those cases where the writers seem to have confused the real-world timeline with the show timeline. If it's November and the baby was born in May, then, yeah, it's unhealthy for the mom to be so paranoid that she still won't leave the child with a babysitter, and it's good for her husband to encourage her to get out and find her groove again. But when the mom gave birth a week or so ago, a husband who demands that his wife leave the kid with a babysitter so he and his wife can go on a hiking trip and then sets up an incident to get her interested in going back to work (never mind that she is actually back at work) is insensitive, if not borderline abusive.

I agree but also that is all new to Snow. She technically is a first time mom since she never got a chance to raise Emma. So this is the first time with feedings every four hours, diaper changes, crying all the time, and all the other fun stuff of having a newborn while her body recovers. She was under the curse with in minutes of giving birth so she also doesn't know how long it takes her body to recover. If anything she should be exhausted, while taking pictures of everything for memories, while still trying to get the hang of having a newborn at home. One week is ridiculous. Its also ridiculous that Charming even wants to leave the house that early since he lost out too. If it was six months then I could maybe see and that's still a big maybe considering once again she didn't get to raise her first baby and almost lot her second one.

[KingOfHearts]

26 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

Its also ridiculous that Charming even wants to leave the house that early since he lost out too. If it was six months then I could maybe see and that's still a big maybe considering once again she didn't get to raise her first baby and almost lot her second one.

Snow and Charming are the same parents that had their second child in a hospital despite the fact their loft was protected. They're pretty bad with their babies... and fetuses. It's funny how there's not really any good parent on this show, just in general. Fairy tale characters make terrible parents, apparently.

Edited February 4, 2019 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I decided to be selective and only watched the Snowing parts of the episode.  It lasted maybe 6 minutes 25 seconds in total, taking up approximately 14-15% of the episode.

First of all, why would Charming suggest taking a hike in the dark to the bluffs?  Especially with the Snow Queen on the loose.  He even jokes about falling through a portal to Asgard.  Which could very well happen.  Why not go for a walk during the day as a break? 

They made it seem like Snow was having irrational fears when the Snow Queen could very well be wanting to steal a baby like all the other crazy child-obsessed villains on this show.

They spend an hour walking around aimlessly searching for Will with nothing to go on, then Charming lets Snow go home by herself while he continues to look.  I'm glad he is confident she can protect herself, but still.  

The conversation between Mary Margaret and Will on the beach was clunky banter which was pointless.  Will buried a backpack with a map to where he buried the backpack?  Am I supposed to be laughing?

Then, Mary Margaret came home and apparently "I feel more like myself" and Charming concluded she "found a part of yourself again".  So how did she feel before?  Like a new mother?  Shouldn't they establish the issue before wrapping it up?  

Edited February 4, 2019 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

2 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Then, Mary Margaret comes home and apparently "I feel more like myself" and Charming concluded she "found a part of yourself again".  So how did she feel before?  Like a new mother?  Shouldn't they establish the issue before wrapping it up?  

The show keeps trying to convince us that Snow isn't just some frumpy mom on the sidelines now, but it fails repeatedly. We get these "Snow gets her groove" back episodes, but there's never actually any character growth. She never settles on any particular identity, so what exactly is her arc meant to be? She's still in her 20s like Emma, but she's written like she's in her 40s.

[Camera One]

23 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

She's still in her 20s like Emma, but she's written like she's in her 40s.

Hello dear fan,

We already have plenty of characters in their 20s and we have no one in their 40s, and we want to be inclusive to all age groups even boring housewives.

Thanks for your interest.

Adam and Eddy