S05.E03: Four Walls And A Roof

[Guest]

Why doesn't AF consider what viewers know---that if Eugene dies the "cure" dies with him.

 

There was a conversation, and I don't remember which one it was, where I recall clearly thinking that its not that Eugene knows the cure but that Abraham has bought into the idea of Eugene being one of the brightest minds of our generation and the best chance of finding the cure.  That if he can just get him to some kind of think tank with other brilliant minds with resources that the cure is as good as done.  Saying Eugene has the cure makes his case for going to DC easier to sell.

 

I tend to think that Eugene thinks he has some knowledge of science, maybe if its just from watching movies of something dumb like 'hey some fungi cause disease but fungi also create penicillin' and he came up with a theory that seems logical to him.  He thinks he can cure it in the way sports fanatics think they can coach a team better than a major league coach, but Abraham really took it and ran with it and it spun out of control.

 

It was a strange choice to make Eugene so unbelievable as a brilliant mind.  Stereotype, I know, but nothing about his speech counters the image.  It feels like its deliberate and solely to convey Abraham's desperation to escape the ZA which borders on living in fantasy.  Father Gabriel feels like the other side of the coin whereas Rick's group is adapting to the changed circumstances.

Edited October 31, 2014 by ParadoxLost

[Iguessnot]

One thing about the church -- like many here, I've long wondered why a good group of people (or even Walkers) couldn't have stormed their way in.  So, when the show was on I paid attention to one of two things: the doors did appear to be sturdy.  I didn't get a look at the lock.  Maybe it had a bar that you lowered?!?  The other thing I COMPLETELY forgot to look at was the windows.  I know in some churches, the windows are high up (I won't even get into the symbolism of that).  Does anyone remember about this church?  If the windows are high, that's why no came through the [bathroom] window (well, except for Joe Cocker).

 

I have always said, a group should be settling down somewhere and another group should be going to Washington, if only to see what kind of hair care products Abraham and Eugene use.  Now, how they stay in contact, I'm not so sure about.  Didn't someone say something about a SAT radio?? 

 

[Luckily, no one's paying close attention, but this conversation would probably be best in the Spec W/.Out Spoiilers, but I get tired of toggling back and forth.  Too much toggling makes you go blind, you know.]

The church windows were not high at all. About the same level of the doors. If the shutters were open, one could peer into the church. 

[Guest]

That carved message on the back of the church has bugged me since it's reveal.  Did one of the parishioners give up a chance to escape the walker horde eating everyone in order to stop and neatly carve a message to Father Pee Pee Pants?  Did someone who did escape come back later (to an area that had to be crawling with walkers since there would have been all those newly turned Episcopalians meandering about) in order to carve a message in the church?  Did NO ONE think about breaking a window to get in (Even a devout Catholic like my mom would be hurling a brick through her favorite stained glass window if it meant getting away from something that was going to kill her!) and yet did have the presence of mind to carve a message instead of, I don't know, running for their life? 

 

That stupid message is going to bug me forever.

 

How about this for a theory.  Father Gabriel scratched it in.  It is possible Father Gabriel can't deal with the guilt and is exaggerating how responsible he is instead of underplaying his guilt.  What if the doors were barred and the parishioners and zombie horde came to his attention at the same time.  So it was too late to really do anything and he didn't open the door and listened to them being torn apart by zombies.  Then he looks at the claw marks on the walls and can't take it anymore and scratches in a message that he can't be forgiven.

[GreyBunny]

The other thing I COMPLETELY forgot to look at was the windows.  I know in some churches, the windows are high up (I won't even get into the symbolism of that).  Does anyone remember about this church?  If the windows are high, that's why no came through the [bathroom] window (well, except for Joe Cocker).

 

 

The windows at Our Lady of Incontinence are at normal height; about waist high on Michonne when she's inside. 

 

http://screencapped.net/tv/thewalkingdead/displayimage.php?album=1473&pid=1656272#top_display_media

The windows look to be the type that are braced by a wood crossbar so each individual pane is small.  From the outside they look to be about eye-level for Carl but they're shuttered. 

 

http://screencapped.net/tv/thewalkingdead/displayimage.php?album=1473&pid=1657597#top_display_media

 

It would have taken some work but scared congregants could have broken a window or damaged a shutter but it would have been a good deal harder to get in.

Edited October 31, 2014 by GreyBunny

[NurseGiGi]

I also don't buy the Father Pee Pants story.  There's no way he would have put down all those parishoners who would have been zombified.  No way.  And they would have to be put down before he could bury them.

 

ETA: Oops, what AngelaHunter said.

Edited October 31, 2014 by NurseGiGi

[AngelaHunter]

I also don't buy the Father Pee Pants story.

 

Not to mention that, for a priest, he puts no faith at all in his god, judging by the way he nearly created sparks by jumping up and hot-footing it back into the church when he and Michonne heard noises while sitting outside.  I don't think he's a priest at all, unless they're all as self-serving and worried about their own hides as he.

[LilySilver]

Clearing a small southern town's square, as they did in Woodbury, and working their way out to clear an ever increasing area is the best and most workable idea, imo.  You can farm plant/farm in yards and parks.  It's easy to fortify as the buildings themselves provide walls, and a street can be easily blocked by a few large vehicles. It was perfect!  You could never keep hold of it without doing some dark deeds, but there's no need for toothless zombie gladiators or zombie head aquariums.

 

There are plenty of semis, plenty of hay bales, plenty of tires, plenty of heavy equipment and since gas doesn't go bad in this universe, they could easily move them into place as needed.

 

As I've said before, I'd watch that show!  But it wouldn't be TWD.

 

I'm just hoping Major Moobs & Co. doesn't swallow my t.v. this season.  I want (always) more Michonne, more Sasha now that she's becoming somebody. More Father Pee Pants, PLEASE!!  Heck, more Beth.  But please hold the Ginger for now.  Please.  Until you can get some better dialogue written for him, at least.

How about this for a theory.  Father Gabriel scratched it in.  It is possible Father Gabriel can't deal with the guilt and is exaggerating how responsible he is instead of underplaying his guilt.  What if the doors were barred and the parishioners and zombie horde came to his attention at the same time.  So it was too late to really do anything and he didn't open the door and listened to them being torn apart by zombies.  Then he looks at the claw marks on the walls and can't take it anymore and scratches in a message that he can't be forgiven.

I love this. I'm going with this theory. In his mind, it all happened slowly--in slow motion; in reality, perhaps it happened very quickly. Over the months, he convinces himself that he could have saved them all if he hadn't been such a coward, if he had just opened the doors.  I think this is consistent with what PTSD can do to events in one's memory. For that to happen and then for him to be left alone, with an abundance of supplies.....all alone for so long, makes sense to me.

 

 In any case, I appreciate the eye candy and I'm interested to see how this man reacts now that he is exposed, in every way, to the horrors of the ZA world.  I hope they take some time and care in developing this character. So much potential. (Speaking of PTSD, memories of Lost are creeping in now....must...not...put....faith....in....showrunners......)

Edited October 31, 2014 by LilySilver

[Iguessnot]

The windows at Our Lady of Incontinence are at normal height; about waist high on Michonne when she's inside. 

 

http://screencapped.net/tv/thewalkingdead/displayimage.php?album=1473&pid=1656272#top_display_media

The windows look to be the type that are braced by a wood crossbar so each individual pane is small.  From the outside they look to be about eye-level for Carl but they're shuttered. 

 

http://screencapped.net/tv/thewalkingdead/displayimage.php?album=1473&pid=1657597#top_display_media

 

It would have taken some work but scared congregants could have broken a window or damaged a shutter but it would have been a good deal harder to get in.

Congregants or not, what rural Georgian couldn't have busted through and hiked themselves through those windows? 

[BrokenRemote]

I'm guessing that another reason that Abraham was in a hurry to leave Rick and the rest behind was that he'd discovered that not only would Rick not blindly follow Abe's orders but would rather violently stand up to him if they disagreed.

If I'm Abe, I'm thinking 'OK, I not only dodged a bullet in not having Rick along questioning my every decision and ready to fight me over them, but I nabbed a couple of the group's better fighters (and Tara). It makes sense to hit the road ASAP. '

(I think this is my first TWD post here, although I posted regularly at TWOP. I'm really enjoying the discussion. To the person who gave the description of Carol pushing Legless Beth around on a skateboard--you made my month! I'm still laughing about that at random inappropriate moments. I think I've discovered my 'I'm-trying-not-to-hate-Beth-with-mixed-results' people. )

Congregants or not, what rural Georgian couldn't have busted through and hiked themselves through those windows?

ETA if they were little panes as noted above, I'm thinking a portly one :) Edited October 31, 2014 by BrokenRemote

[GreyBunny]

^ Yup.  I'm thinking the congregants weren't physically fit killing machines like Rick and Michonne but had roly-poly body types and enjoyed heaps of southern fried cooking, especially at church potlucks after the Sunday service.

[TexasChic]

You know what I always wondered?  How could they live in there with the smell...No windows that opened and all those zombie prisoners in there for months and months and months....Can you imagine how bad that must have been?

Imagine how bad it is EVERYWHERE! I mean, the majority of the population is now decomposing bodies roaming the earth, it's gotta stink to high heavens! 

[BrokenRemote]

All I could think after they all slogged through that Zombie Soup in the food pantry basement was how the hell could they stand the reek of themselves and each other. I honestly was distracted just imagining it. They couldn't have found a stream or something before touching food and hugging and kissing and stuff?

[Mindymoo]

When I was fourteen, my family went on vacation to Myrtle Beach for a week. My pet turtle Gunther died some time at the beginning of that week, and I came home to the smell of rotting dead turtle stinking up not only my bedroom, but the entire house. The smell lingered for weeks, no matter how much we tried to air it out, and no matter what candles we burned. I can only imagine the smell of rotting human beings wandering around buildings and everywhere else would smell like, if poor Gunther smelled that bad.

[RedheadZombie]

Congregants or not, what rural Georgian couldn't have busted through and hiked themselves through those windows? 

 

The adrenaline rush that would accompany a walker attack would make everyone temporarily stronger.  I can't imagine the children weren't being hoisted up onto a church overhang at the bare minimum.  A woman can lift a car off her child with the help of adrenaline, but they can't break windows?

[kikismom]

The adrenaline rush that would accompany a walker attack would make everyone temporarily stronger.  I can't imagine the children weren't being hoisted up onto a church overhang at the bare minimum.  A woman can lift a car off her child with the help of adrenaline, but they can't break windows?

Exactly. These are not World War Z zombies; they can't climb.(And those cross dividers for the window panes are just to hold the glass, they are not structural. As old as they are, you could knock them out with your shoe.)

Speaking of climbing up, to this day I still don't know why if Rick caught up to Sophia why the hell would he put her under a creek bank instead of up in a tree? They were in the damn woods and there were only 2 walkers chasing her. Then after you kill the walkers you'd know where she is and if it took a while she could sit there. For Pete's sake putting the kid in the water under some vines and telling her to work her way back to the highway with the sun over her left shoulder? I still don't get that.

[Nashville]

Why wouldn't they break in the windows indeed?

Because the windows were shuttered?

IIRC Prayin Gabe said so in his big OMGconfession scene.

Which raises another question:

Ok, Padre, so you claim you lock the doors every night.

Did you shutter the windows every night as well?

Doubt it.

[Nashville]

Imagine how bad it is EVERYWHERE! I mean, the majority of the population is now decomposing bodies roaming the earth, it's gotta stink to high heavens!

Yeah, but it's a mobile stink. Plus, they have to be drying out some by now.

[henripootel]

My pet turtle Gunther died some time at the beginning of that week, and I came home to the smell of rotting dead turtle stinking up not only my bedroom, but the entire house.

I had the misfortune to come on real decomp once.  Kid had drown in a river and it took a week to find him.  I showed up right after they had, and his body was in the back of a truck in summer heat, and I could honestly smell ... something ... from a good quarter mile.  I had to pass within a hundred feet and it was simply incandescent.  The whole WD world must reek to high heaven.

 

Sorry about Gunther.

[CarpeDiem54]

Not to mention the living must be giving off some pretty powerful body funk what with crotch rot, armpit BO and rank greasy hair (I'm looking at you, Daryl). I think they're all desensitized to putrid odors by now.

[RedheadZombie]

Because the windows were shuttered?

IIRC Prayin Gabe said so in his big OMGconfession scene.

Which raises another question:

Ok, Padre, so you claim you lock the doors every night.

Did you shutter the windows every night as well?

Doubt it.

So instead of prying open the shutters with their sharp object, instead they take the time to carefully carve out a message. I wish the writers would devote as much time as we do to thinking out a plot. Edited November 1, 2014 by RedheadZombie

[Trek]

Kikismom, Jbody and other posters on the CDC/Eugene issue:

 

When Abe/Eugene say they have “the cure,” it is actually meant as a macro statement ala “a cure to the world’s  ailment” as opposed to a medical cure of the type that Herschel had been waiting for when he kept his relatives and neighbors in the barn.

 

Eugene does NOT want to go to the CDC nor any type of research lab. He wants to go a Biochemical Weapons command center. Technically what Eugen claims to have is a formula to a bioweapon that once/if deployed will kill off all the walkers and thus allow whomever is still living to reclaim the world. It will not actually cure anyone. For example, if Eugene is for real and had gotten to DC in season 2 unbeknownst to the Rickets, one morning our merry cast would have woken up to find all the walkers in the barn in a rotting pile. Herschel would not have gotten his wife and son back, no tearful joyous reunion between Carol and Sophia. Dead is dead(er).

 

What Eugene exactly said was this:
“I am keenly aware of all the details behind failsafe delivery systems to kill every living person on this planet. I believe that with a little tweaking at the terminals in DC we can flip the script – take out every last one of them. Fire with fire.”

 

Now whilst I personally think that the chances of finding something like that still functioning and staffed even more absurd, that’s another discussion. (Made a post about it way back in the thread somewhere - they’d need several specific generals who would have what would be a multi-part security code for the launch protocols and still need a small army of people to go out to every silo scattered all over the country to power up the generators and replace the assorted Anthrax, Smallpox, or whatever payloads with “Eugene formula” payloads etc.)  It still remains that whether the CDC still exists or not is irrelevant to Eugene/Abe as far as this specific plan is concerned. Eugene wants access to a weapons delivery system and launch trigger which, according to him, exists in DC.

 

I also wouldn't count Abe possibly being ex-military to mean that he should know what (still) exists, what doesn't and what never even was.  If he was at least a Brigadier (1 star general) or higher then maybe. He stikes me more as Sargent-type and at that paygrade, he'd know about as much as a deputy-sheriff. That is; not much at all.

 

I don't buy the you wouldn't understand it and you don't need to know crap.

I'm not trying to understand the science.I don't need to know how to write the chemical formula for what's in a fire extinguisher to hand it off to a fireman. FFS write it down so if you croak I can give the info to DC and we''ll build a EP statue someday but the cure needs to be recorded.

 

Logistics-wise, AF has some good ideas. But if those ideas are in the service of idiocy, then he's still an idiot.

 

I like how you explained AF's decisions about the group, who he took, why he might be better away from Rick's Band of Meandering Yahoos.

I just need a look in Abe's head to know why? why?

ITA. In fact, I found what he said “[you wouldn’t understand it] even if I wrote step by step instructions complete with illustrations and an FAQ” so condescending that if I’d been there I’d have slapped him upside the head for it. However, if we take off our rational viewers’ hat and put on Eugene’s, there is a good reason for not telling irrespective of whether the formula is real or just BS. Doing so would turn him from being the “Pvt. Ryan” of the group that everyone wants to keep alive at all costs into “Cpl. Upham” carrier mule who the squad will still try to protect but a non-essential everyone knows is completely useless in a fight. Very self-serving and non-altruistic to be sure, but still rational from Eugene’s PoV.

 

As to why Abe beleives so much in Eugene - that I am afriad I can't theorize on without it being complete wild guesses. Yet. (Depending on what other exposition we get when they get closer and closer to DC). Maybe in his hearts of hearts he has doubts and it's a matter or wanting to believe so much that he does. There was an incident in the train car when Eugene was getting grilled where Abe seemed to get a little nervous and started to tell people to back off that I made a mentel note of at the time as, "hmm, that's interesting."  

I just re-watched Nebraska, and Tony says they couldn't get anywhere near DC. Somebody could've mentioned that to Abraham as well. Or just asked, "how are you going to stay on the highways?" As some of you had mentioned they would be packed.

 

Considering the source and all the excitement immediately following; Rick had to murder the guy literally 2 mins after that conversation, then got engaged in a long drawn out gunfight, made a skin-of-your-teeth type escape from a walker horde only to find more Lori/Shane drama via car crash on arrival; in this instance I’ll give the writers a pass for assuming that that specific line in a very awkard, manacing conversation may have been discarded as a lie by Rick and Glenn (the only two currently still alive who heard it) or that it has completely slipped their mind by now due to all the other things that they are going to remember from that day.

[kikismom]

Considering the source and all the excitement immediately following; Rick had to murder the guy literally 2 mins after that conversation, then got engaged in a long drawn out gunfight, made a skin-of-your-teeth type escape from a walker horde only to find more Lori/Shane drama via car crash on arrival; in this instance I’ll give the writers a pass for assuming that that specific line in a very awkard, manacing conversation may have been discarded as a lie by Rick and Glenn (the only two currently still alive who heard it) or that it has completely slipped their mind by now due to all the other things that they are going to remember from that day.

Somewhat like the "Tyreese, we have to tell you about who killed Karvid; no it isn't the person who made the vivisected rat artwork, the killer is---hey, did you hear the tower just blow up? Let's run outside and look!"

I swear I'll do an Elvis and shoot my TV if Sunday's episode opens with Daryl saying "I know what happened to Beth, and where she is, and I've got important news about Carol, it's like this, they---omigod did you hear a gunshot/explosion/helicopter?"

 

I'm also puzzled that it was Eugene has the cure on the road when they first have Glenn and Tara. Then it's Eugene has the cure when Glenn wants to leave and find Maggie. Then it's Eugene has the cure when they find Maggie/Bob/Sasha then it's Eugene has the cure when everybody except Carol and Tyreese is reunited in the boxcar at Terminus

              Then they are eating a meal in the church and Abraham announces Eugene knows of some bunker with food and probably a reinforced steel door.

 

And not one person there says, Wait, what? I thought it was something else to do with the Human Genome Project and shit...what happened to that anyway?

[Pete Martell]

Not to mention that, for a priest, he puts no faith at all in his god, judging by the way he nearly created sparks by jumping up and hot-footing it back into the church when he and Michonne heard noises while sitting outside.  I don't think he's a priest at all, unless they're all as self-serving and worried about their own hides as he.

 

Many priests are cowardly and craven. Many aren't, of course. I think he probably is a priest who was sheltered and was in a warm, loving congregation and had no idea how to deal with such a huge, ugly change. 

So instead of prying open the shutters with their sharp object, instead they take the time to carefully carve out a message. I wish the writers would devote as much time as we do to thinking out a plot.

 

One of the problems I tend to have with thinking out plots is that as a work of fiction, we can always come up with another solution, wonder why the people involved didn't do this or that. It doesn't excuse lazy writing, but generally I write off a lot of the idiot plotting on here because more often than not, people panic and act stupid and don't think clearly in life. Not to go into some type of tangent into another topic, but some of the stuff that some of the medical professionals who were exposed to ebola got up to afterward is something I would consider absolutely ludicrous if it happened on a TV show. Yet...it happened.

[kikismom]

When I was fourteen, my family went on vacation to Myrtle Beach for a week. My pet turtle Gunther died

I extend my sympathies about Gunther as well. That must have been sad .

He died holding down the fort, like a little green ninja.

[nodorothyparker]

Speaking of climbing up, to this day I still don't know why if Rick caught up to Sophia why the hell would he put her under a creek bank instead of up in a tree? They were in the damn woods and there were only 2 walkers chasing her. Then after you kill the walkers you'd know where she is and if it took a while she could sit there. For Pete's sake putting the kid in the water under some vines and telling her to work her way back to the highway with the sun over her left shoulder? I still don't get that.

 

Rick was still fairly new to the whole zombie apocalypse thing at the point this happened.  Can you imagine what any of our survivors would say if they saw this now?  "You couldn't manage two walkers and keep going?  What the hell's wrong with you?"  Current Rick would kick former Rick's ass and be aggravated that he had to do it.

[Mindymoo]

Aww, thanks guys. A little bit of levity was brought to the situation when we were trying to identify the source of the odor, and my brother's then girlfriend walked into my bedroom. She ran out and yelled, and I quote, "Mindy, that turtle is dead. It isn't even alive." I was laughing so hard at that statement that I couldn't even cry over poor Gunther's untimely death.

[NoWillToResist]

 

Of the group, Maggie, Glenn and Tara are probably more docile. They aren't idiots, but they'll trust Abraham.

 

Aren't those three also the youngest of the group (not including AWOL Beth and Carl, who wouldn't get a say with his dad around anyway)?

 

 

"You couldn't manage two walkers and keep going?  What the hell's wrong with you?"  Current Rick would kick former Rick's ass and be aggravated that he had to do it.

 

Hee! True. :)

[editorgrrl]

Of the group, Maggie, Glenn and Tara are probably more docile. They aren't idiots, but they'll trust Abraham.

Aren't those three also the youngest of the group (not including AWOL Beth and Carl, who wouldn't get a say with his dad around anyway)?

See, that's what I love about all y'all: you notice things I don't and plant ideas in my head. Sometimes those ideas play out in big ways on the screen, but they always increase my enjoyment of the show.

[AngelaHunter]

My pet turtle Gunther died

 

Sorry. I get so attached to my pets I cry like a baby when I lose one.

 

But speaking of bad smells in the ZA world: I had a giant apple snail named Arthur who died without my knowledge in my tank. The smell when I pulled it out made me reel. Never have I eaten escargots.

 

However, I can't help but be reminded by Gunther of Bad Lip Reading's video, with Daryl and his turtle, Anthony. "He's afraid!"

[Lyndy]

Throwing something out there for consideration. Imagine Eugene is not, in fact, full of shit. He knows how to use a bio weapon to wipe out the walkers. I have less than zero knowledge about these things but... if it targets everyone who is infected, does it wipe out the entire population? What if that's why Eugene looks permanently mopey?

[Nashville]

So instead of prying open the shutters with their sharp object, instead they take the time to carefully carve out a message. I wish the writers would devote as much time as we do to thinking out a plot.

If "sharp object" = a rock with an edge, sure. :)

That wasn't my point, though (no pun intended - ok, maybe a little). My point was this - Gabby is claiming his ending up with a churchful of supplies was the result of fortuitous circumstance resulting from his normal pre-ZA behavior patterns; locking the church at night left the his congregation abandoned to the tender sensitivities of the recently turned in the early morning hours of the ZA's beginning, and Padre Peehole was the unwitting recipient. Some inconsistencies to that story, however:

• Church locked at night? Sure - don't want the lover's lane set spraying sacrilege all over the place in the off-hours.
• Church locked at night, with Gabe inside? Ok, that's getting odd, but still within the realm of possibility- especially if, as I posited earlier, he was showing that cute little bespectacled church pianist a new way to grind an organ, and they didn't want anyone walking in on the -ahem- "music lesson".
• Church locked at night, with Gabe inside, and the shutters closed? Now just wait a minute, Monsignor Makeatinkle. We're still pretty much in the Deep South here, which means shutters generally don't get closed unless a major weather event is forecast, like a hurricane or tornadoes or such. NOBODY closes their shutters as a matter of nightly routine.
• Church locked at night, with Gabe inside, and the shutters closed and secured to where no one could get them open?. Bullshit-O-Meter just went off the scale. Normal shutters are designed to protect against weather-related intrusions like hail or flying debris, not people. They are usually secured with a simple hook latch or something similar, which anybody with a pocket knife or credit card could undo in a few seconds. Anything else is going to involve substantial time on a ladder outside, and is NOT going to be part of anyone's nightly routine.

Obviously FPP is glossing over a situation (a) MUCH more organized than he originally let on, and (b) also initiated AFTER the ZA's start. I'm guessing Gabby Prays made a pitch to his congregation they should "all pull together", pool their resources (food), fortify a location (the church) for defense, and ride out the ZA as one big happy family - then, after the resources were pooled and the church barricaded from intrusion, locked himself inside and everybody else out.

[bunnywithanaxe]

Yikes. That strikes me as highly likely.

[AngelaHunter]

Sounds about right to me, Nashville.

 

And this?

 

if, as I posited earlier, he was showing that cute little bespectacled church pianist a new way to grind an organ

 

Ha! I too do not believe a word that comes out of that mealy-mouthed Monsignor Makeatinkle's (Double HA!) psalm-saying piehole.

 

I mean, do we know if he even IS a priest?

[Irishmaple]

I think Eugene's priority, medical-wise, should be finding a way to neutralize the virus in living people.  The zombies are a massive inconvenience, yes, but they're there and not going anywhere and can be killed off as days/weeks/months role on.  The living virus is the problem IMO because it will continue to cause people to turn and, should they die in their sleep with someone close by, turn others.  If he has a cure (and I'm still ready to apologize if he's not full of crap) then I'd hope that is what his focus is on.  Wiping out the zombies en masse is a bit of a waste of time, really.  Once people are healthy and the virus 'cured', they can reclaim the country one inch at a time if necessary.

 

I honestly don't think Abe can stand to hear others express doubts about Eugene.  He's giving everything he has to believing in Eugene and that ground might get very shaky in a hurry if someone forces Eugene to actually spit out some formula or other.

[HalcyonDays]

I think Eugene's priority, medical-wise, should be finding a way to neutralize the virus in living people.  The zombies are a massive inconvenience, yes, but they're there and not going anywhere and can be killed off as days/weeks/months role on.  The living virus is the problem IMO because it will continue to cause people to turn and, should they die in their sleep with someone close by, turn others.

 

I'm interested to see if they are going to include viral mutations into the mix. Only because it would be really likely for different variations of the virus to exist.

 

I honestly don't think Abe can stand to hear others express doubts about Eugene.

 

I think to Abe, Eugene represents Hope for Humanity. If Abe for any reason lets himself believe that Eugene knows nothing or not as much as Eugene lets on, it might break Abe's will. Abe can focus on his mission to Washington, and it in turn allows Abe to focus and not let himself fall apart at everything going on around him. Just my view.

[Trek]

Throwing something out there for consideration. Imagine Eugene is not, in fact, full of shit. He knows how to use a bio weapon to wipe out the walkers. I have less than zero knowledge about these things but... if it targets everyone who is infected, does it wipe out the entire population? What if that's why Eugene looks permanently mopey?

You have touched on something that I had been mulling over since s05e01 aired.  Even if real, the thing could not possibly have been field tested yet. I am not talking about proper tests with proper sample sizes and control groups here, I am thinking that given how useless he is in front of walkers, I bet he has never even, say, put the formula into some spray cans or made some homemade pathogen water balloons and then gone out and tossed a few of them at real walkers to see what happens.

 

In fact, other than theoritically, he would have no clue whether it worked at all, let alone what the dispersal patterns are, how long it would stay airborne, side-effects to other creatures etc. For all we know, it could render walkers unconscious for an hour and give them new super-speed when they woke. (Hey! In a reality where walkers exists, super-speed can also exist!) Or it could kill all the plant-life along with walkers and wipe out life on the planet. The disaster scenarios are endless with a completely untested bioweapon.

...  ...  ...

 

With regards to the church congregation:

The presence of the church-lady with glasses (along with many of her friends) at the food bank suggests the possibility that the congregation may have been starving at the time and came to the Church looking for food they knew was there, rather than shelter. Their enfeebled state plus the knowledge that there was an alternative repository of food (namely the aforementioned food bank) may have contributed to much shouting of abuse and graffiti insults but only half-hearted attempts at actually breaking in before some bright fellow shouted “Yo!, Forget this shit, let's head to the food bank y’all.”

 

This would mean that a walker attack was not even imminent at the time but was an embellishment to make him appear, however marginally, slightly less of a selfish coward than he actually was (and that he didn’t actually go out and bury anyone later), but otherwise the testimony was somewhat true.

 

Just another scenario that fits (kinda - with some stretching) the physical evidence, the one witness testimony we have, and the location of where some of the congregation’s (un)dead bodies were found.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Trek

[kikismom]

If he'd simply show where he buried the parishioners that died by the church, people could believe him. Don't start an alibi that you buried 30 people in the backyard but you wouldn't be able to recall where. Father G is a liar.

 

ETA didn't Rick have to bury Termites when Tyreese was burying Bob? Don't these people say, jeez this ground is packed hard and full of weeds, how did that priest bury all those skeletons somewhere with no help?

Edited November 1, 2014 by kikismom

[RedheadZombie]

If "sharp object" = a rock with an edge, sure. :)

That wasn't my point, though (no pun intended - ok, maybe a little). My point was this - Gabby is claiming his ending up with a churchful of supplies was the result of fortuitous circumstance resulting from his normal pre-ZA behavior patterns; locking the church at night left the his congregation abandoned to the tender sensitivities of the recently turned in the early morning hours of the ZA's beginning, and Padre Peehole was the unwitting recipient. Some inconsistencies to that story, however:

 

Oh I completely agree with you.  As written, Gabriel is completely shady.  I'm just increasingly disappointed in the inconsistent writing.  What we speculate here is always more clever and interesting than what the writers come up with.  They often leave a SL thread hanging - Bob's box, the mysterious picture that looked like Mary, Gabriel's mysterious blond lady.  Sometimes the loose ends lead somewhere - Terminus was as bad as everyone guessed on first impression, fruit hippy guy did end up somewhere, the person feeding rats to walkers was not a saboteur.

 

Besides level of acting talent, I think it's very important that the actors know their characters' motivation.  The actor who played Gareth said he was told on hire that his SL would somehow involve cannibalism.  I think that added nuance to the character, and I found him very charismatic in a cult leader way.  On the other hand, I did not like or trust Hershel until the farm fell.  I found the character very sinister and disingenuous.  Now that I'm familiar with SW's acting ability, I don't think he was informed by the writers.  The Hershel in seasons three and four was absolutely amazing, and (I believe) portrayed differently by the actor.  I think this may be why I, along with many others, are finding Gabriel to be a very ambiguous character.  If I thought they were deliberately writing him that way, I would really appreciate it.  If it's simply from lazy writing - not so much.

[kikismom]

Oh I completely agree with you.  As written, Gabriel is completely shady.  I'm just increasingly disappointed in the inconsistent writing.  What we speculate here is always more clever and interesting than what the writers come up with.  They often leave a SL thread hanging - Bob's box, the mysterious picture that looked like Mary, Gabriel's mysterious blond lady.  Sometimes the loose ends lead somewhere - Terminus was as bad as everyone guessed on first impression, fruit hippy guy did end up somewhere, the person feeding rats to walkers was not a saboteur.

 

Besides level of acting talent, I think it's very important that the actors know their characters' motivation.  The actor who played Gareth said he was told on hire that his SL would somehow involve cannibalism.  I think that added nuance to the character, and I found him very charismatic in a cult leader way.  On the other hand, I did not like or trust Hershel until the farm fell.  I found the character very sinister and disingenuous.  Now that I'm familiar with SW's acting ability, I don't think he was informed by the writers.  The Hershel in seasons three and four was absolutely amazing, and (I believe) portrayed differently by the actor. 

Herschel's  character was supposed to be portrayed differently in the beginning, you were not supposed to like or trust him.

 

Early Herschel was a southern patriarch who never had friendships with at least Asians if not more races, believed in very self-congratulatory Christianity, was almost as authoritarian as his father. He once described his father as a mean drunk...unaware that his own drinking problem and bad attitude was repeating the pattern.

  Scott Wilson was informed by the writers that Herschel was in denial, and did not want anyone from out in reality to break into his delusion. Actually, if you watch the scene where the highway group catches up with Rick and Lori at the farmhouse...take a look at Maggie standing behind Herschel. She makes a very obvious show of looking at Daryl like he's a dead skunk. Several times.And Patricia gives Shane the old 'no cussing at the table!" with a hard look. These were very isolated and insular people who did not like anyone from "outside".

Herschel's big arc is to learn that Glenn is a good guy, eventually consider him truly his own son and love him. He learns humility, service without payback, understanding without being judgmental, forgiveness, and curiousity and interest in people unlike himself--from Michonne to Milton.

 

Herschel of 3 and 4 may have been the amazing Herschel 2.o personality in the best way...but Scott Wilson's portrayal from the beginning, all through Herschel's journey, was an amazing performance.

[peach]

Maybe Abe is like George Clooney in O Brother, Where Art Thou?  He made up that big yarn about finding the treasure to get home before his wife married another man.  He knew he couldn't escape without the other two, so he made up a story to get them to go along.  Maybe Abe has his OWN reason he's desperate to get back to DC, that zero other people would care about, so he's willing to use Eugene's sketchy story as an excuse to get himself there.  He just knows he needs help to do it.

 

I'm really overthinking it here. 

[RedheadZombie]

@kikismom, I see your point.  But I'm not talking about season two Hershel being insular, questionably racially intolerant, old-fashioned, and in denial - although I agree on all those points. 

I think the writers were taking Hershel in one direction, and when the decision was made to kill Dale instead of Hershel, they had to scramble to rewrite the character. 

We know that Hershel was very loving, generous, and protective to his loved ones, in season two.  We knew he's a man of strong faith.  But he would sometimes almost give me chills because he seemed (to me) so sinister.  Almost like a man in a Santa suit, sneaking in to murder everyone. 

 

I think one of the changes was having Hershel take on the more likeable traits of Dale.  He became the one trying to keep humanity alive.  He embraced and accepted Glenn.  He welcomed the group into the house at night.  It makes me wonder how his character arc would have continued until his death, if Dale was saved.

  So while I do appreciate that Hershel has changed for the better, I think there was some writing inconsistency with his character.  Unlike watching early Daryl episodes, which make me remember how much I loved him and his journey, watching early Hershel scenes creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable.

Edited November 3, 2014 by HalcyonDays
Spoiler tagging comic spoilers

[henripootel]

I think Eugene's priority, medical-wise, should be finding a way to neutralize the virus in living people.

 

Possibly not.  If you're trying to cure living folks you have to make sure the 'cure' doesn't make things worse and kill the patient.  Treating the dead is easier - you don't care if the cure lights them on fire, in fact, it'd save a lot of burying if it did just that.

Edited November 1, 2014 by henripootel

[kikismom]

@kikismom, I see your point.  But I'm not talking about season two Hershel being insular, questionably racially intolerant, old-fashioned, and in denial - although I agree on all those points.  I think the writers were taking Hershel in one direction, and when the decision was made to kill Dale instead of Hershel, they had to scramble to rewrite the character.  We know that Hershel was very loving, generous, and protective to his loved ones, in season two.  We knew he's a man of strong faith.  But he would sometimes almost give me chills because he seemed (to me) so sinister.  Almost like a man in a Santa suit, sneaking in to murder everyone. 

 

I think one of the changes was having Hershel take on the more likeable traits of Dale.  He became the one trying to keep humanity alive.  He embraced and accepted Glenn.  He welcomed the group into the house at night.  It makes me wonder how his character arc would have continued until his death, if Dale was saved.  So while I do appreciate that Hershel has changed for the better, I think there was some writing inconsistency with his character.  Unlike watching early Daryl episodes, which make me remember how much I loved him and his journey, watching early Hershel scenes creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable.

Nope! The writers had nothing to do with taking Herschel in a different direction, and it had nothing to do with Dale's death at all. I'm not allowed to tell you why here, because we can't discuss (cough cough) here...even if it isn't spoilery and can't spoil you because Herschel is dead!  Just let me whisper that Herschel was always like that, hell, he was much worse!  I'll PM you a link. Don't open it if you don't want to, it's okay...but if you're curious it is interesting.

 

I've just seen several characters behaviour being blamedon the TV writers (and they are guilty of some shit) or racism or ageism or sexism or whatever...but some things are just as they were in a certain pulp paper version sold in the kind of stores that Sheldon and Howard and Raj and Leonard go to. If you know what I mean .:-D

[RedheadZombie]

@kikismom, Hm...... I'm awaiting your PM!

[kikismom]

@kikismom, Hm...... I'm awaiting your PM!

I got a message I can only send so many PMs a day lol so I guess I'll put it over on We Bury the Ones We Love because that can't break the rules---can it?

[Pete Martell]

Oh I completely agree with you.  As written, Gabriel is completely shady.  I'm just increasingly disappointed in the inconsistent writing.  What we speculate here is always more clever and interesting than what the writers come up with.  They often leave a SL thread hanging - Bob's box, the mysterious picture that looked like Mary, Gabriel's mysterious blond lady.  Sometimes the loose ends lead somewhere - Terminus was as bad as everyone guessed on first impression, fruit hippy guy did end up somewhere, the person feeding rats to walkers was not a saboteur.

 

I'm not sure when something is a loose end and something is just a wink or an Easter egg. I took the paintings on the wall in "Claimed" to be Easter eggs - they all led up to something that would happen later in the season. People also said the painting looked like Lizzie. There were two rabbits - Lizzie/Mika, or Lizzie killing rabbits. There was a sunflower - "look at the flowers" and the sunflowers growing at Terminus. There was a dog that looked like the dog Beth and Daryl saw not long before Beth was kidnapped.

 

I don't see the lady with Gabriel as a loose thread, as she was used to help explain to the group that Gabriel was lying. And it could possibly lead to more.

 

The only one I think was left hanging was Bob and the box - obviously they did that to make us think he might be the saboteur, but they never followed up on it. 

 

I guess it's mostly down to interpretation. I wouldn't be surprised if Gabriel is hiding something else, but I think the writing and acting about him have been fairly straightforward in characterization.

 

Sometimes fan speculation will be more clever than reality, but part of that is just fans spinning and weaving story strands. For instance, I thought they were going to say that Lizzie killed Karen and David. Ultimately, I still think that would have made more sense, but it didn't happen, so I can't really criticize the show for it.

 

By and large I think the writing is more consistent in the last few seasons than it was before, where actors (especially SWC and Laurie Holden) would give character motivation that shocked me because I never got it onscreen.

 

My main complaint, and it's a big complaint, is stuff like Tyreese and Martin, where we have no idea whether he meant to kill Martin and didn't, if he didn't mean to kill Martin, if other people will find out about this, etc. It's just a huge, confusing plot hole, and it's not really fair to Chad Coleman to play or for viewers to understand. This is similar to what happened last season with Carol killing Karen and David - it's something that was never fully explained. 

 

This type of writing, and the Maggie/Beth thing, are my big complaints, because it's just needless to be this sloppy.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Pete Martell

[Raven1707]

 

ETA didn't Rick have to bury Termites when Tyreese was burying Bob?

 

Bob had already been buried. The scene after Bob's death shows Sasha winding twine around two sticks that she was making into a cross, at a fresh gravesite. This did not appear to be near the place that Tyreese was digging a bit later on...

[Raven1707]

 

One of the problems I tend to have with thinking out plots is that as a work of fiction, we can always come up with another solution, wonder why the people involved didn't do this or that.

 

As a writer myself, I tend to cut the show's writers a fair amount of slack. The fact is, you simply cannot answer every question or address every possibility or you'll get bogged down in minutiae. An episode runs about 40 minutes and showing the characters performing mundane tasks is simply not in service of the underlying story. Some things are better inferred.

[RedheadZombie]

 

My main complaint, and it's a big complaint, is stuff like Tyreese and Martin, where we have no idea whether he meant to kill Martin and didn't, if he didn't mean to kill Martin, if other people will find out about this, etc. It's just a huge, confusing plot hole, and it's not really fair to Chad Coleman to play or for viewers to understand. This is similar to what happened last season with Carol killing Karen and David - it's something that was never fully explained.

 

I completely agree with you on this.  Martin added nothing special to the scenes following Tyreese's attack.   We didn't see Carol question Tyreese on his "lie".  We didn't see Martin taunt Tyreese about tricking him.  There's absolutely no purpose (that I can see) in having Martin survive that attack, except to imply Tyreese is a lying coward, or an incompetent imbecile.  I realize editing could be in effect here, but there should be someone ultimately responsible for keeping the story telling consistent.  Too many times I have to find out about things by watching TTD, instead of learning it from the episode.

 

I usually try to let these things go.  One major irritation was Lori being consumed wholly by one walker, but an entire pack of walkers took out the church patrons, and left bones behind to be buried.

[Raven1707]

 

We didn't see Carol question Tyreese on his "lie".

 

Carol wasn't with the group when Martin reappeared.